"...and now the facts are pouring out. DO SOMETHING!"
October 29, 2017 10:19 PM Subscribe

Day 284: Over the weekend, it was revealed that an indictment resulting from the investigation led by special counsel Robert Mueller is expected to be made public today.

[this is your U.S. politics thread]

As Trump henchmen ~~lose their fucking minds~~ ramp up their efforts to muddy the waters with Hillary conspiracy theories, it's worth reading these two pieces from Heather Digby Parton rounding up and taking down the non-controversies. (Many thanks to delightful MeFite perspicio for MeMailing me these pieces.)

Today is day 38 since Hurricane Maria devastated an island of over 3.4 million American citizens, and things in Puerto Rico are worse than our government's admitting.

Roundups of all the nihilistic idiocy that happened on days 279, 280, and 281.

Bob Mueller, the fellow inquiring,
Continued his efforts, untiring,
So in a short while
We may see a trial
Or else a Nixonian firing.
- @limericking

posted by Anonymous (2590 comments total)

Bless you, lalex, for doing God's work. (Only a little tongue in cheek here)
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 10:25 PM on October 29, 2017 [7 favorites]

you see what 2017 has brought me to, people? Linking Gawker, canceling my rss reader, and now LINKING A DAMN TWEETSTORM?

how dare you 2017.

h.
d.
u.

1. Here's a morbid train of thought. I feel quite confident I'm not the only one thinking it. But let's get it down for the record. ... Tomorrow is going to be something close to a clean test - the kind of perfectly constructed experiment sociologists & polisci folks love. ... It is a test of whether right-wing media can distort reality sufficiently to prevent any kind of transpartisan consensus from forming.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:28 PM on October 29, 2017 [58 favorites]

Given that nothing much is likely to happen overnight, let's try not to clog up the shiney new thread with lots of derailing and jokes and metadiscussion.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 10:45 PM on October 29, 2017 [20 favorites]

and now LINKING A DAMN TWEETSTORM?

tttthread-ified for your reading pleasure.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 10:48 PM on October 29, 2017 [8 favorites]

I remember the hopes of Fitzmas: perp walk dreams and all. *sigh*
posted by jadepearl at 11:04 PM on October 29, 2017 [15 favorites]

@the man of twists and turns: Nice find. And a depressing read.

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?
posted by StrawberryPie at 11:06 PM on October 29, 2017 [11 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

Leftish ideas suffer from the problem of not being easily reducible to bumper-sticker slogans, and also from not being things that appeal to visceral emotions like hatred and resentment?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:10 PM on October 29, 2017 [74 favorites]

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.

- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
posted by perspicio at 11:11 PM on October 29, 2017 [154 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

It's because proud ignorance, hate, and tearing things down requires no work, indeed, rewards not working. Understanding, caring, and building requires work, and usually lots of it.
posted by maxwelton at 11:12 PM on October 29, 2017 [74 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

Because when I get with my lefty friends, we talk bikes or the weather or kids or new tires on the truck or or or.

When I get with my righty friends, it's fucking KKKillary KKKLinton all the fucking time. I think its why I got over my early20s conservatism - it's really hard to be wound that goddamned tight all the time.

Anyway, point is, the rightwing nut jobs love this shit and eat it up. So the media - to the extent they are actually neutral (which is not a great extent) - finds an audience there.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 11:12 PM on October 29, 2017 [37 favorites]

Did Mueller interview Obama with regards to the warnings he personally gave Putin? Would it be public knowledge if he did?
posted by PenDevil at 11:12 PM on October 29, 2017 [1 favorite]

"Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?"

We haven't had our shame glands removed.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:14 PM on October 29, 2017 [64 favorites]

"why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?"

Because as soon as the Right mentions "biased left-wing media fake news", the Left falls all over itself to prove that's false, with examples and explanations and rational arguments and such and soon you're left behind arguing about something that happened 3 tweets ago and why can't you all just move on?

The Right doesn't bother with such niceties…
posted by Pinback at 11:14 PM on October 29, 2017 [38 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

A lot or even most of the right-wing media machine works on the premise that they're fighting a left-wing media machine.
posted by dmh at 11:14 PM on October 29, 2017 [18 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

I mean, the above are right, but mainly it's money. There's a vast pool of money constantly recreating and maintaining rightwing propaganda organs.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:19 PM on October 29, 2017 [52 favorites]

Seconding RW,LD. The Right has the money to build a dedicated media machine. Those few billionaires with enough resources are doing something else.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:21 PM on October 29, 2017 [4 favorites]

There's a vast pool of money constantly recreating and maintaining rightwing propaganda organs. Umrgm, okay, yes, Mercers and Sinclairs. But surely there is a lot of money on the left too? I find it hard to believe it's just money that's holding the "left" back from effectively neutralizing the RW media machine.
posted by StrawberryPie at 11:23 PM on October 29, 2017

No one strapped these Republican assholes down and forced them to watch nothing but Fox News 24/7 like we're in A Clockwork Orange. Sure, money, fine. But ultimately it's the rank and file of the Republican Party who are responsible for their own behavior.
posted by Justinian at 11:23 PM on October 29, 2017 [33 favorites]

The Left also seems to be willing to step outside of the echo chamber to seek out neutral news sources or even check out what FoxNews and Breitbart are saying. The Right? Not so much.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:25 PM on October 29, 2017 [2 favorites]

Maybe we're just not lying delusional motherfuckers?
posted by Artw at 11:25 PM on October 29, 2017 [30 favorites]

Since people are probably going to be looking at this thread to try see news updates and similar, it would be good to avoid a few hundred comments right off the top just musing about the what Republicans are like generally (or how the Left sucks) and similar. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:26 PM on October 29, 2017 [70 favorites]

The power hungry right wing is profit driven, not ideological except where it suits its self-justification. So it's not a matter of who has the most money, or the very rich on the left counter-balancing the very rich on the right, it's that the goal is different. The goal is more money all the time, which is pretty much how the Russians in power also understand the world.
posted by kemrocken at 11:35 PM on October 29, 2017 [3 favorites]

Taz, you're right. Very sorry. My bad. Tired and not thinking like a good mefite.
posted by StrawberryPie at 11:37 PM on October 29, 2017 [3 favorites]

it's really hard to be wound that goddamned tight all the time.

a clenched sphincter gathers...uh, no fuck it. go to bed quonsar.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 11:38 PM on October 29, 2017 [19 favorites]

No one strapped these Republican assholes down and forced them to watch nothing but Fox News 24/7 like we're in A Clockwork Orange.

Yeah, but many (or most) rural areas don't have strong independent media presences, meaning that Fox News and USA Today are the only regular (therefore "reliable") televised and print sources they have for information. If internet isn't widely available, or if it's considered less trustworthy because it's a different type of venue that conflicts with what other sources are saying, it can be harder for people to accept.

There's a large swath of the country that is seeing the narrative ONLY as it is being framed by Fox. I know papers in the San Francisco Bay Area have suffered due to the shift from print to digital media, resulting in layoffs or shuttering; I can only imagine things have been worse for smaller, more regional publications.

There are good people out there who are capable of making good decisions and who want to do the right thing. The problem is that there's an entire machine capitalizing on them by feeding them bullshit.
posted by Graygorey at 11:49 PM on October 29, 2017 [23 favorites]

But surely there is a lot of money on the left too? I find it hard to believe it's just money that's holding the "left" back from effectively neutralizing the RW media machine.

Which billionaires do you think are willing to devote large chunks of their fortune to decreasing income equality? Would Donald Trump be president today without the Mercers? It's not just money but money is a huge component driving american politics rightward.
posted by rdr at 11:55 PM on October 29, 2017 [5 favorites]

my guess; a sitting president is no ham sandwich.
posted by forgettable at 11:57 PM on October 29, 2017 [2 favorites]

Room 641-A: it's been back to bad sleep, so I expect I'll be up very early in the AM

You knead to relax.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 12:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

Because operating a large news-gathering organization requires serious money, and serious money looks after its own. If you are not already familiar with Manufacturing Consent, you owe it to yourself to read it before consuming any more news from any source at all.

The other thing that's been ramped right up over the last five years or so is a deliberate and largely successful attempt by Russia to chaff the US media landscape with so much out-and-out bullshit that any genuine critique of the media just gets buried in the general hubbub about fake news. That, in turn, means that the amount of both internal and external criticism that feeds into editorial decisions is greatly reduced, increasing the extent to which editors and curators fall into believing their own spin, which lowers the quality and trustworthiness of their output to the point that when they do expose genuine wrongdoing its very easy for large numbers of people to dismiss their efforts out of hand.

In Australia, we're lucky enough to have a public broadcaster that does as good a job as any you'll find of eliminating editorial bias. As a consequence it sits rather a long way to the left of most commercial media, making it a regular target for mouth froth from the Moloch papers and their captive toadies in Parliament. The ABC's overall choice of what to cover and how is still rather too comfortable with the status quo for my own liking, but I'm really glad it features regular contributions from one of this country's unashamedly leftist national treasures. I would be interested in hearing what US Mefites think of Bruce Shapiro's regular spot on Phillip's program.
posted by flabdablet at 12:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

Sadly plausible:

@mattyglesias My prediction: Mueller fired, blanket pardons, Rs defend, Russians hack again in 2018, House Ds win popular vote by 7 points, GOP majority.

I guess we may see part 1 of that play out pretty soon.
posted by Artw at 12:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

If someone would like to make a post about right wing media, opinion manipulation, funding, etc., that would probably be a good idea, and a good place to discuss the issue that won't subsume this thread about current WH news and Mueller investigation.
posted by taz (staff) at 12:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

Lower your expectations for who'll be indicted tomorrow. Mueller seems to be making a methodical case and he'll likely start at the margins.

I assumed this all along, but then I get swept up in the excitement. I mean, as much as I get swept up. But picking off the little guys is going to cause panic and people tripping over themselves to sell Trump out.

My prediction: Mueller fired, blanket pardons, Rs defend, Russians hack again in 2018, House Ds win popular vote by 7 points, GOP majority.

Nah. Not because I have any faith in justice any more, but because these people are reckless, stupid, have overreached, and don't have nearly the support people pretend they do.
posted by bongo_x at 12:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Which billionaires do you think are willing to devote large chunks of their fortune to decreasing income equality?

Not sure how many of them are billionaires, but the Patriotic Millionaires have been working in that direction.

From their 'About' page: “Our members include: David desJardins, the #20 employee at Google; legendary venture capitalist Alan Patricof, New York psychologist Gail Furman; filmmaker Abigail Disney; technologist Steve Silberstein; billionaire medical device heiress Pat Stryker; investor Lawrence Benenson of Benenson Capital Partners; textile entrepreneur Great Neck Richman; philanthropist Molly Munger; corrugated cardboard magnate Dennis Mehiel and media investor Leo Hindery, Jr. among many others.”
posted by LeLiLo at 12:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

My bet is that the early pre-announcement of the impending indictment is a strategic move to cause other potential suspects to reveal themselves by making panicky cover-up errors.
posted by fairmettle at 12:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Avi Selk, WaPo: A cyclist flipped off Trump’s motorcade and entered the annals of presidential protests

We don’t cotton to fascists in my neighborhood.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

At this point I feel like Mueller has assembled a large enough, well-qualified staff that even if Trump stupidly fires Mueller that there are enough people involved with investigative stuff that the fire will not only keep burning but will keep growing. I mean, I realize that sounds HOPEFUL but yeah.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 1:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

My bet is that the early pre-announcement of the impending indictment is a strategic move to cause other potential suspects to reveal themselves by making panicky cover-up errors.

It's also worth noting that Mueller's mandate is fairly broad:

Crucially, the order written by Rosenstein establishing the special-counsel investigation is very broad. It states that the special counsel is “authorized to conduct the investigation” that includes “any links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump” as well as “any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation.”

So it's entirely possible that the current indictments and arrests may not be directly related to the Russia/collusion investigation at all. As such leaking the info to poke the hornet's nest would certainly be a nice side benefit, and one they can potentially keep repeating on random Friday afternoons. Not so much "tick, tock" as "drip, drip, drip..."
posted by Buntix at 2:05 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I keep wondering what will be bad enough to bring down the whole house of cards. My various social media feeds are full of potential Big Enough Things, like daily. I’ll believe it when I see it.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 2:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

It amuses me that someone in this investigation has to keep track of the daily stuff where Trump is mouthing off on twitter or in the press. It exists somewhere in an official file. This is a list I would like to see someday in the future when this has all passed.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 2:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I can't imagine living through this, as in living in the same country where this nightmare persists, infiltrating the health and the minds of good people, of which I know there are many more than the selfish and the greedy.

In the UK, Cameron was stupid enough to call a referendum that the country as a whole was stupid enough to use as a vote for discontent with whatever the hell annoyed them at that time; the Tories are increasingly divorced from an understanding of what faces the poor and the needy, more so than they ever were; and the media increasingly exists in a vacuum of its own self-importance. It's not a great place to be, by any means. Yet we retain links with Europe, and by the time this process plays out perhaps we will remain there and keep the integration and the understanding and the cultural benefits that being mixed with other nations brings. We have a health service that cares for people, despite its faults. We have a broadly tolerant population who are rightfully outraged when shit happens.

But... but... but... what is the effect of being in a nation where your head is a vile, narcissistic, self-important shit, who understands only that fuelling controversy and hatred amongst a small disenfranchised base is all that is needed to remain where he is, who knows that this is the way to protect himself and ensure his future, who measures out his life in encouraging hatred and discrimination, who cannot think beyond the end of the next fucking tweet, who cares not one single iota of a fuck about people, who is not interested in caring about them, who does not want good of any kind to fall upon any but himself, who encourages hostility and rough, ugly, mean handling of people, who cannot get over the smallest slight, who is pandered to by a media on all sides that retains a fascination with his grotesque soul and the part they have played in creating this monster?

Where the hell does the world go from here? How can we row back to a time when there was a semblance of a belief that politicians cared? Is there really nothing but pessimism from here? Are we, all of us, not just those of you living in the US, truly fucked?
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 3:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [51 favorites]

@rgoodlaw (Just Security, former Special Counsel DoD)
All eyes on Manafort-Flynn, but what if … Mueller indicts Russians Monday (or soon)? It would be a game changer in several ways…
2. First and foremost: Indicting Russians would make it harder to (ever) fire Mueller or shut down his investigation...
3. Indictment of Russians also undercuts Trump's ability to pardon his way out of this mess. Politically hard to pardon Russians, and…
4. Even with sweeping pardons of Americans, Mueller’s investigation would have every reason to continue (against the Russian suspects)....
5. Mueller could also indict Russians and name (pardoned) Trump associates as “unindicted co-conspirators” (reduces incentive to pardon)...
6. Mueller’s naming any Trump associates as “unindicted co-conspirators” would be very significant for public understanding of wrongdoing...
7. Trump associates are less likely to flip knowing Pres. may pardon them (Arpaio pardon helped signaled to them he would for loyalty)...
8. Russian nationals, on other hand, can’t count on any pardons, so may be more likely to flip/cooperate if ever taken into custody...
9. Russian indictments also shape the narrative: core value of Mueller probe is getting those responsible for interfering in our elections…
10. Core value of Mueller's prosecuting election interference may include Russian interference in GOP primary too. Did Trump Campaign Collude with Russia to Defeat Republican Opponents in GOP Primary?
11. Russians likely commited offences in DNC hack, campaign interference, etc. So don't be surprise by Russian indictments at some point...
12. It takes two to collude (need a Russian partner). So good reason to think evidence may turn Mueller to indict Russians too.
posted by chris24 at 3:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Are some pre-dawn raids too much to ask for?
posted by soren_lorensen at 3:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Trump seems weirdly emotionally attached to Flynn, but I wonder what would happen if Manafort were taken into custody. I understand the smart play (quote unquote) would be to cover for him as incentive for others but I can’t help but thinking that Trump’s immediate gut reaction would be to throw Manafort under the bus, then reverse and run him over again.
posted by lydhre at 4:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I dunno. I'm liking this "Indict Russians" thing. Everyone sure that Natalia V. Veselnitskaya was in the country on the right visa, and was registered properly as a foreign lobbyist when they took the June 2016 meeting?
posted by mikelieman at 4:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Steve Marmel @Marmel
Trump: 400K new "followers" over the last few days.
The bots are lined up and ready to go, folks.
Be prepared.

Tweet includes screenshot of ridiculous bot profiles.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [73 favorites]

I feel like insomnia should mean that those of us awake on the West Coast at least be consoled with early Monday shenanigans in DC. It's past 7am there! DO SOMETHING!

(I keep trying to fix my horrible grammar, but I haven't slept for more than a few hours in over a week, and not at all last night. I am editor, ashamed.)
posted by elsietheeel at 4:09 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

I'd try to go back to sleep but #FOMO.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

TONIGHT: Hannity blows the lid off Adlai Stevenson's illegal Capital Hill poker nights!
posted by PlusDistance at 4:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

My partner and I are in the UK and have the day off. We bought Twilight Struggle last night and we're keeping ourselves occupied with it until America wakes up. Not sure if this is a good idea or not. We shall see, on both fronts.
posted by iamkimiam at 4:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Keep your hopes modest. Remember that Mueller has to move especially carefully. Because there is gross corruption involved at the highest levels, from which his mandate proceeds, the integrity of the very systems and processes used to do his job are uniquely in question at this time. He likely has to verify them as he goes. So, maybe this is taking a careful step forward and seeing what squeaks.
posted by perspicio at 4:26 AM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

Damn, no 6am arrests on the morning news... Would have between fun.
posted by Coventry at 4:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Not saying this is what's happening, but if you're Manafort or Flynn or whoever, wouldn't you try to negotiate to turn yourself in rather than be frogmarched at dawn out of your home with TV crews all around? Assuming they know it's coming. Possible reason for no dawn raids. Or today could have no arrests.
posted by chris24 at 4:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

The CEO of Cambridge Analytica, the controversial data firm that helped Trump to power, had contacted Julian Assange to ask him if he wanted “help” with WikiLeaks’s stash of stolen emails.
...
But it’s also Cambridge Analytica, the data analytics company that has its headquarters in central London and which, following a series of articles about its role in Brexit in theGuardian and the Observer, is also being investigated, by the Electoral Commission and the Information Commissioner’s Office. The company that was spun out of a British military contractor, is headed by an old Etonian and that responded to our stories earlier this year by threatening to sue us. It’s our Cambridge it’s named after, not the American one, and it was here that it processed the voter files of 240 million US citizens.

It’s also here that this “hostile intelligence service” – WikiLeaks – is based. The Ecuadorian embassy is just a few miles, as the crow flies, from Cambridge Analytica’s head office. Because this is not just about America. It’s about Britain, too. This is transatlantic. It’s not possible to separate Britain and the US in this whole sorry mess – and I say this as someone who has spent months trying. Where we see this most clearly is in that other weird WikiLeaks connection: Nigel Farage. Because that moment in March when Farage was caughttripping down the steps of the Ecuadorian embassy was the last moment the lines suddenly became visible.
...
Nigel Farage who visited Donald Trump and then Julian Assange. Who is friends with Steve Bannon and Robert Mercer. Who headed an organisation – Ukip – which has multiple, public, visible but almost entirely unreported Russian connections. Who is paid by the Russian state via the broadcaster RT, which wasbanned last week from Twitter. And who appears like clockwork on British television without any word of this.

I find it sort of comforting to think that Brexit and Trump were not two separate inexplicable phenomena, but part of a single phenomenon we are now beginning to understand.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [58 favorites]

I find it sort of comforting to think that Brexit and Trump were not two separate inexplicable phenomenon, but part of a single phenomenon we are now beginning to understand.

I recall being very puzzled, in the campaign, when Trump said he was going to be called "Mr. Brexit".......
posted by thelonius at 4:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Yet, he doesn't mention that one of his republican opponents paid to start the reaearch...

and he also still seems unaware that opposition research has always taken place.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 4:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

And also. I will piss my pants laughing with glee if Obama ends up being the thing that brings him down.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 4:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

It's Manafort.
posted by Dalby at 4:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [79 favorites]

Just got an alert from NYTimes... Mueller/Manafort o'clock?
posted by pjenks at 4:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Here is a terrifying Halloween video about the Muellerman, an ancient evil that thrives on depositions, for anyone who hasn't seen it.
posted by Mocata at 4:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

In this timeline Christmas comes before Halloween.
posted by sebastienbailard at 4:57 AM on October 30, 2017

NYT FLAG: Paul Manafort and his former biz partner Rick Gates have been told to surrender to law enforcement.
posted by PenDevil at 4:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [30 favorites]

> I find it sort of comforting to think that Brexit and Trump were not two separate inexplicable phenomena, but part of a single phenomenon we are now beginning to understand.

Farage is a buffoon. There is, and I say this in the light of Trump being elected, there is not the slightest chance he would get anywhere near the reins of power here. Boris, maybe, but he's a different kind of creature completely. We've seen what he does in power (Mayor of London) and it wasn't divisive and full of hatred.

Cadwalladr is focused on the data mining and the intelligence dumps that led to the fake news and the perversion of views and the social media campaigns. As a nation, we're not even sailing in the same sea as the US, let alone in the same boat, when it comes to the pollution of minds.
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 4:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

NYTimes backgrounder on Rick Gates.
posted by pjenks at 4:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

its_happening.gif
posted by PenDevil at 4:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Donny's now trying to tie Obama to the dossier.

@realDonaldTrump
Report out that Obama Campaign paid $972,000 to Fusion GPS. The firm also got $12,400,000 (really?) from DNC. Nobody knows who OK'd!

Also, this is a lie. Obama campaign used the same law firm as DNC. (Surprise, Dems using a Dem firm.) But Fusion was hired by the law firm. Obama has no known ties to Fusion. (And even if they did, it wouldn't be incriminating or surprising. Fusion is a oppo research firm that does work for many campaigns of both parties.)
posted by chris24 at 5:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

I started typing this before the Manafort news and I am gonna finish it...

if Obama ends up being the thing that brings him down.

Well according to Callum Bochers at WaPo...

"Fusion GPS is run by former Wall Street Journal reporters Glenn Simpson, Thomas Catan and Peter Fritsch. One could argue that the Free Beacon's hiring of Fusion GPS amounted to bringing in a few experienced, big-league journalists as consultants.

“It's a serious organization,” New York Times columnist Bret Stephens, another Journal alumnus, said of Fusion GPS on MSNBC this week.

But President Trump and his allies have sought to cast Fusion GPS as a shadowy, illegitimate outfit that produced a “fake” dossier. And the Free Beacon this week has published such characterizations unchallenged — without noting that it considered Fusion GPS reliable enough to pay for its services."

Also the vast majority of the evidence against Trump and company has nothing to do with the dossier.

So fortunately or unfortunately, I don't think Obama gets credit...
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

and a very good morning to YOU ALL
posted by halation at 5:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

What is meant by "Obama Campaign" in the context of the 2016 election? He wasn't running for any office at that point, right?
posted by oakroom at 5:05 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

What is meant by "Obama Campaign" in the context of the 2016 election? He wasn't running for any office at that point, right?

Nothing related to 2016. They had paid money to the law firm in prior years. So not only is there no real connection, they're trying to tie past, unrelated things to the present situation. It's just an attempt to slime.
posted by chris24 at 5:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Sorry. Let me rephrase: If Trump is delusional enough to think it's Obama's fault I will piss my pants laughing. Since he blames everybody but himself this would not be surprising or shocking.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure I consider Manafort cake-worthy, but I'll compromise by making the kids pancakes for breakfast.
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Not Flynn? And what's to stop Trump from just pardoning people indicted this early?
posted by Bee'sWing at 5:12 AM on October 30, 2017

First indictments in Watergate came September 17, 1972. Took almost two more years before Nixon resigned.
posted by chris24 at 5:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

I'm not sure I consider Manafort cake-worthy, but I'll compromise by making the kids pancakes for breakfast.

I think Manafort was indicted because he wasn't cooperating. Countdown to flipping.... Pancakes are totally appropriate....
posted by mikelieman at 5:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

And what's to stop Trump from just pardoning people indicted this early?

30 years ago? The threat that even his own party would impeach if he did something so transparently crooked. In 2017? Who even knows.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

what's to stop Trump from just pardoning people indicted this early

Manafort has some questionable real-estate deals in New York and elsewhere; money laundering and other related activities would be indictable under NY state law (and the president's power of pardon doesn't extend to the states, only federal).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Not Flynn? And what's to stop Trump from just pardoning people indicted this early?

They lose their ability to plead the 5th. Also, Manafort will most likely also be in legal jeopardy under state charges that Trump can't pardon. (Mueller has been working with NY AG Schneiderman.) Plus, pardoning can be evidence of or construed as obstruction of justice for Trump. And will set off a firestorm that he can't be assured won't get out of control.
posted by chris24 at 5:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

Ryan Lizza: Unlike Manafort, who was forced out last year, Gates continued to work on the Trump campaign and even the inaugural committee
posted by PenDevil at 5:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Natasha Bertrand: Manafort walks into the DC FBI office.
posted by box at 5:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

From an AP photographer.

@andyharnik
Former Trump Campaign Chairman Paul Manafort left his Alexandria, Va. Apt. at 7:38am in passenger seat being driven in a Toyota Sequoia
PIC
posted by chris24 at 5:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

My theory is that Flynn flipped and that's why it's not him.

As a nation, we're not even sailing in the same sea as the US, let alone in the same boat, when it comes to the pollution of minds.

I say this hoping I'm wrong, but believe this at your own risk.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

(and the president's power of pardon doesn't extend to the states, only federal).

Isn't there a thing that a pardon removes the person's ability to plead the fifth?
posted by drezdn at 5:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

VIDEO: Perp Walk #1
posted by Devonian at 5:25 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Not Flynn?

They don't need anything from Flynn. He's small potatoes, and Manafort is his puppetmaster. They need to know what Manafort promised Sessions, Pence and Kushner.

Once the big dominoes start to fall, he'll be scooped up alongside the rest of the bit players.
posted by Slap*Happy at 5:25 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don’t even know how to interpret Manafort/Gates. I mostly want this fucker gone yesterday and don’t know how long this means we have to wait.
posted by corb at 5:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

I recall being very puzzled, in the campaign, when Trump said he was going to be called "Mr. Brexit".......

Mr. Fixit was clearly out of reach.
posted by srboisvert at 5:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

In rage inducing things...

At the gym this morning, one of the local news stations had a headline about there being an indictment today over footage of Hillary. They know what they're doing and it pisses me off.
posted by drezdn at 5:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [58 favorites]

I don’t even know how to interpret Manafort/Gates.

The first domino.
posted by chris24 at 5:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

> I say this hoping I'm wrong, but believe this at your own risk.

I'm not saying people don't believe shit on social media here and there aren't forces at work trying to shape thoughts and the media agenda. But it feels like a completely different culture here to that at work in the US.

Also, you know why Lola's friend was called Soren Lorenson, yes?
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 5:29 AM on October 30, 2017

It's the hand between the shoulderblades that does it for me, gently yet implacably propelling monsieur into the building labelled FIELD OFFICE. As if - yes, you're co-operating, but perhaps you'll try something stupid. Don't try something stupid. That would be stupid. It's too late for that now.
posted by Devonian at 5:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

I'm not sure I consider Manafort cake-worthy.

I concur -- too much a foregone conclusion to be really exciting, but since he and Gates were both ON the actual campaign and directly and closely linked to Trump with no degrees of separation, I'm having butterscotch Krimpets for breakfast.

What is meant by "Obama Campaign" in the context of the 2016 election? He wasn't running for any office at that point, right?

Oh come on, he was running against the Clinton Administration!
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Isn't there a thing that a pardon removes the person's ability to plead the fifth?

If they've been pardoned, then they can't self-incriminate because they wouldn't be putting themselves in jeopardy by testifying, so someone who's received a presidential pardon can't invoke the Fifth Amendment under questioning related to the offence they were pardoned for.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

What should we expect in relation to Manafort and Gates for the rest of the day process wise (especially now Manafort has done his perp walk)? Is there typically a “booking” with a photo released type deal, unsealing of the charges etc? Undoubtedly it will be wall to wall cable news regardless - but wondering if we believe anything substantive will happen beyond the turnover.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 5:32 AM on October 30, 2017

I'm not sure I consider Manafort cake-worthy.

I respectfully disagree. Manafort is literally one level below Trump. Usually these rollup prosecutions start at low levels and work their way up. So many comments/tweets yesterday were cautioning that it could be Page or Flynn Jr or even another we didn't even know. Mueller got someone at a very high, very involved level who has intimate ties to both Trump & Co. and the Russian side. It's the perfect first prosecution because he can roll on both. The fact that he was obviously dirty and the obvious choice shouldn't disappoint, it should be reason for hope because even more reason for him to flip to avoid serious jail time.
posted by chris24 at 5:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [79 favorites]

FOX News right now
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

It's the perfect first prosecution because he can roll on both.

And really, if anything makes me cackle right now, it's that Mike Fucking Pence is surely having a very, very unhappy morning.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [56 favorites]

Please remain seated until the ride comes to a complete stop.
posted by delfin at 5:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [57 favorites]

My theory is that Flynn flipped and that's why it's not him.

And even if he didn’t, that idea is in the back of the mind of everyone in Trump’s circle now.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Feeling crappy and sleep deprived today but dang if this won't put a little bounce in my step.

I assume if someone is pardoned, told to testify, and refuses, they can be jailed for contempt?
posted by emjaybee at 5:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

> Please remain seated until the ride comes to a complete stop.

I'm... I'm gonna need to pee before then.
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 5:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [36 favorites]

So...a rudimentary WikiPedia reference about land deals and extensive loans from them (tens of millions [one without collateral {My God}]) indicate investments to me versus lavish spending. Pure speculation: Oil futures/hedge/venture capital because, were wind and solar not at all competitive, the opening (melting) Arctic routes bring great fortune to Canada, Russia, and US. The fact that solar and wind are is another thread.

Given Trump fired Manafort after some sort of briefing, flipping not appearing in my shew stone.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 5:39 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I don’t even know how to interpret Manafort/Gates.

What chris24 said.
posted by flabdablet at 5:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Ha, all the MSNBC shots of Manafort that the panel is talking over now have him doing sneaky side-eye.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Also, if it was Don Jr. or similar, while very satisfying, it would probably not be as productive as Manafort. Don Jr is an idiot who just wanted to grift and cheat. He really knows nothing or very little. And he wouldn't turn on his father. Manafort is experienced, smart, with no longterm/familial loyalty to Trump. He'll be much more useful to Mueller. And since he's not family and will likely be used as an attempted fall guy for Trump, much less likely to be pardoned.
posted by chris24 at 5:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Goddammit, my glee is laced with dread, because every time the forces of good and just fucking...REALITY...win one, it also becomes another test of our tenuous consensus reality, and one day we’re just gonna fail that completely.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

I’m frankly sort of surprised that Manafort is still alive.

Guessing if Putin started knocking off people involved from the U.S. the FBI offices would be flooded pretty quickly with people willing to tell all in return for protection deals...
posted by Buntix at 5:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

The big question today is bail. Manafort needs to be in protective custody for his own good as well as the investigation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Jr is an idiot who just wanted to grift and cheat. He really knows nothing or very little.

I’m imagining the scene where Gob tries to hang himself in the prosecutor’s office, only to be told he’s useless and can go.

Also, wait. Wouldn’t they have already tried to roll Manafort? Why are people assuming he’ll cooperate just because he’s been indicted?

Because if my choices were facing money laundering charges or dealing with a pissed off Russian state, I know which one I’d pick. I wouldn’t even have to think about it.

This has all the difficulties of a mob or narco prosecution, only with the actual resources of a state as the enemy.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

Politician perp walks are like my favorite thing ever. Can't wait to see some more!
posted by Jacqueline at 5:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Also, wait. Wouldn’t they have already tried to roll Manafort? Why are people assuming he’ll cooperate just because he’s been indicted?

I'm sure they tried. But getting cooperation when you're a free man, even under suspicion, is more difficult than when you're indicted and facing the rest of your life in prison.
posted by chris24 at 5:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Guessing if Putin started knocking off people involved from the U.S. the FBI offices would be flooded pretty quickly with people willing to tell all in return for protection deals...

That’s not how it worked in the UK.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

I’m frankly sort of surprised that Manafort is still alive. My impression is that the sorts of jobs where you get the ability to implicate lots of Russian oligarchs and possibly Putin himself in serious crimes...don’t have great retirement options?

I mean, knock on wood. Or maybe that’s why Manafort hasn’t rolled. In which case...

Manafort can't easily tell tales about Putin; no matter what Muller knows about him, that is surely nothing compared to what Russia knows about his Kremlin-funded bagman/destabilisation work in Eastern Europe. When even your own family members call your money blood money, that does rather imply that the things they don't know about are quite impressively illegal. I would also imagine that he likes his daughters in their current 'alive' status, so not all leverage goes away even if he confesses to everything.

I'm sure that Manafort also has his own dirt files and potentially explosive testimony, and so the stalemate continues. I think he has to produce testimony regarding Trump campaign people or face a very a long time in prison. And, let's face it, he's being prosecuted by the head of an agency that has counter-intelligence as a responsibility, and seems to have undertaken much of the Trump related stuff in NYS legal jurisdiction.

Also, the other pressure is that Manafort doesn't get to know what his business partner is saying about him. Manafort has to talk about US nationals; I have to think that absent a deal Manafort may well die in prison.
posted by jaduncan at 5:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Because if my choices were facing money laundering charges or dealing with a pissed off Russian state,

I don't see why Russia would be pissed off. Putin's goal was to cause chaos and diminish the US. He's done that and an administration being bogged down in scandal and controversy and maybe even brought down is just another bonus layer of that. I'm sure Putin is laughing at this, not worried about it. Everyone knows they interfered, what does a little more confirmation really change? Especially when it splits America in two.
posted by chris24 at 5:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

I've been saving this one for Don Jr, but today seems nice too.. Dad, I'm In Jail.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

A couple deleted. I hate nature, it looks like you're here to troll the site. Cut it out.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

I was worrying about a Fitzmas repeat, but Manafort's a good get. Dude deserves indictment completely apart from his work for Trump.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

I don't see why Russia would be pissed off. Putin's goal was to cause chaos and diminish the US

Yeah but is his other goal was to get rid of the Magnitsky act, and revelations about Russia’s meddling make that politically impossible. And a bunch of oligarchs who can’t touch the money you helped them steal are unhappy oligarchs, one would assume? I don’t know how many people in the world understand Russian politics well enough to know whether this is actually dangerous for Putin, but it’s got to be at least inconvenient.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

I may be wrong, but didn't both of these fine fellows report directly (and only) to Trump himself?

If so, that's my second-favorite number of degrees of separation.
posted by rokusan at 6:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

If Flynn has flipped, doesn't he still need to be formally indicted as part of cooperating with the DOJ in exchange for a softer penalty? Couldn't a Flynn indictment still be coming?
posted by emelenjr at 6:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

In addition to Manafort & Gates, Mueller believed to have info to indict Mike Flynn, Trump’s first natsec adviser
posted by oheso at 6:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Just figured out how to turn on the TV (I'm in an unfamiliar house here in rural England), and fistpumped with a YES! as the BBC lunchtime news leads with this.
posted by Wordshore at 6:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

@CNN reporting that Rick Gates has turned himself in.
posted by Buntix at 6:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

~And what's to stop Trump from just pardoning people indicted this early?
~30 years ago? The threat that even his own party would impeach if he did something so transparently crooked. In 2017? Who even knows.

This version of the Republican party will never, ever, ever impeach Trump or any other sitting Republican President. NEVER. EVER. No matter how tightly they are backed into a corner. It just won't happen.

The only possible caveat to this is if Pence stays untouched. Then, the R's might be ok with an impeachment. A Pence Presidency would be a lot easier for them to work with.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Text of the indictment is out:

Paul J. Manafort, Jr., of Alexandria, Va., and Richard W. Gates III, of Richmond, Va., have been indicted by a federal grand jury on Oct. 27, 2017, in the District of Columbia. The indictment contains 12 counts: conspiracy against the United States, conspiracy to launder money, unregistered agent of a foreign principal, false and misleading FARA statements, false statements, and seven counts of failure to file reports of foreign bank and financial accounts. The case was unsealed on Oct. 30, 2017, after the defendants were permitted to surrender themselves to the custody of the FBI.
posted by bluecore at 6:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [80 favorites]

Welp, that's been worth the insomnia. May it be the first (and second!) of many more to follow!
posted by elsietheeel at 6:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I'm guessing that if Flynn is cooperating, there is or will be an indictment but it'll stay sealed for a while just to keep from confirming it.

Let everyone else keep guessing and/or imagining things worse than reality.
posted by VTX at 6:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

conspiracy against the United States

Well that sounds interesting.
posted by chris24 at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [66 favorites]

Manafort, Gates indicted by federal grand jury on 12 counts, including conspiracy against the U.S.: special counsel statement
posted by oheso at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

NBC News: The charge(s) Manafort faces are likely tax related multiple sources tell Pete Williams, @KenDilanianNBC & @JuliaEAinsley

If this is the case, then I would think the charges aren't likely to be campaign-related. But the conviction rate for tax law cases is notoriously high, so it may be that they are starting just with rock solid charges before moving onto bigger targets and less clear-cut cases.
posted by parallellines at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

> conspiracy against the United States

Is that... you know... treason?
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 6:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [40 favorites]

Conspiracy against the United States! Is that 18 US Code §371?
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

I’ve been really worrying it would be a Teflon situation where it’s light tax evasion or something but charges of conspiracy against the United States are...uh...pretty no-nonsense.
posted by Brainy at 6:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Oh, Wikipedia is already being edited...

Paul John Manafort Jr. (born April 1, 1949) is an American lobbyist, political consultant and lawyer, white collar criminal, and a total douche for embezzling and tax evading with his buddy Rick Gates for years. Meanwhile President Donald Trump is furious and tweeting and directing blame to Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. At Fox News, Sean Hannity is praising Manafort for his years in service.
posted by elsietheeel at 6:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

Haha, I've never been happier to have made a completely irrelevant comment.
posted by parallellines at 6:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

PDF of the indictment.
posted by ltl at 6:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

The first response from a GOP member of Congress comes from Sean Duffy (R-MTV):

"We also have to look at, what impact did Russia have with Hillary Clinton & her campaign & the dossier? And Uranium One. Listen, if you're Paul Manafort, this is not good for you. My concern is, do we take that next leap and say, is that going to taint Donald Trump? I cannot take that leap. If [Manafort] had these interactions before the campaign, that doesn't mean he brought Donald Trump into his mess. To taint Donald Trump with things that Manafort did before the campaign, I think is a leap too far."

So at least for now, no one's willing to talk. Continued silence or hand-waving from McCain, Corker, Sasse, etc. will be more telling.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Conspiracy against the United States sounds a lot worse than it is.
posted by PenDevil at 6:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

"Indictment of Manafort and Gates signed by Special Counsel Mueller"[@MarkKnoller on Twitter]
posted by slipthought at 6:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Here's Justice Taft, defining "defraud" within the meaning of 18 US Code §371, in 1924:

"To conspire to defraud the United States means primarily to cheat the Government out of property or money, but it also means to interfere with or obstruct one of its lawful governmental functions by deceit, craft or trickery, or at least by means that are dishonest. It is not necessary that the Government shall be subjected to property or pecuniary loss by the fraud, but only that its legitimate official action and purpose shall be defeated by misrepresentation, chicane or the overreaching of those charged with carrying out the governmental intention."
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Conspiracy to launder money for whom?
posted by schoolgirl report at 6:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

looks like manafort's got a case of the mondays
posted by entropicamericana at 6:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

Um. Local radio news here has just said that Bill Gates has been arrested for conspiracy against the USA.

I know Windows 95 was deeply annoying to use at times, but that seems a bit strong.
posted by Wordshore at 6:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [125 favorites]

Fox's spin seems to be all about how Manafort's crimes are almost certainly from five or six years ago, and revolved around his "shady businesses" from "years before he was ever associated with President Trump."

It won't hold up, of course, but it's fascinating how ready they had that.

Oh, and Manafort and Gates weren't indicted or arrested or any such thing. They "turned themselves in this morning", and that's where that ends.
posted by rokusan at 6:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Full indictment document
posted by slipthought at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Conspiracy against the United States sounds a lot worse than it is.

I think it sounds like the lead to every news story.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

I don’t even know how to interpret Manafort/Gates.

The first domino.

Don't know about Gates, but I bet Manafort will take life in prison to avoid his children ingesting polonium.

So without someone else flipping hard, (which is probably what enabled this indictment, so don't worry), this will be the last domino.
posted by ocschwar at 6:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

From indictment:

"In total, more than $75,000,000 flowed through the offshore accounts.'

(!!!!!)
posted by bluecore at 6:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

Oh man, these money laundering charges... they're all split out by state. Dude is going to unpardonable amounts of jail.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [79 favorites]

My tl;dr of the indictment: Manafort and Gates were paid around $75m in total between 2006 and 2014 to lobby on behalf of the Ukraine government of the time, headed up by Viktor Yanukovych who subsequently fled to Russia after the Ukrainian revolution in 2014. Manafort and Gates hid all that money in offshore accounts, laundered it in various ways, and lied repeatedly to the DoJ and IRS about their activities.
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 6:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

From the Daily Beast, Rick Gates was working for Tom Barrack, and visiting the WH, as recently as June. Barrack was a huge Trump fundraiser, in charge of the inauguration and has been discussed as a possible Chief of Staff.
posted by chris24 at 6:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

"only the best people"
posted by something something at 6:25 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Trump is a coward. How much heat can he take before he throws one of these indicted cronies under the bus? That's the first domino I'm looking for.
posted by klarck at 6:26 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Manafort's skein of companies seems to have walked a chunk of change out of Ukraine on behalf of Putin's buddy Viktor Yanukovych.

For those thinking 'oh, it's just tax fraud' - not in this case it isn't. You'd expect financial charges to come first, because while they can be fearsomely complicated there are records and for known dodgy geezers who've been on the radar for a while, there is usually a huge amount of data gathered over the years waiting for the resources and motivation to assemble the jigsaw properly. The evidential trail for money laundering forms a good backbone on which to reflesh the dinosaur.

This will go back to Putin, lickety-spit, and where you're talking Russian cash, New York property and covert deals, guess who's going to be the biggest turd bobbing to the surface?

There will be no cake in the White House today. Unless they're baking one with a file in it.
posted by Devonian at 6:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [64 favorites]

Disappointing that it's 'just' laundering $75m obtained from unsavoury Ukrainian pols. On the other hand the focus on money laundering can't be very relaxing if you're Donald Trump.
posted by Mocata at 6:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Josh Marshall:

Terrible decision to get involved in a presidential campaign w that much dirty laundry. Unless of course he had no choice.

Yuuuuup.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [97 favorites]

i'm crossing my fingers hoping this all ties back to president trump but i'm not feeling particularly optimistic
posted by Tevin at 6:30 AM on October 30, 2017

Who is Rick Gates Manaforts's right hand man and pro Russia Lobbiest who also worked for Trump best buddy and fundraiser Tom Barrack whose business is dodgy real estate deals.
posted by adamvasco at 6:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

If this is our path back to the good timeline, IMO what will happen is that there will be an indictment every five months or so for the rest of the administration for things that cast a shadow on Trump but nothing that is impeachable (because Congress would never impeach in any case, so who cares?). Trump won't get impeached, but his administration will be in disarray, the midterms will be a disaster for the Republicans and he'll be a one-term president. Everyone in this administration is so, so shady and dishonest - there's lots to investigate as long as you have the capacity. I mean, I wish it was as simple as just arresting all of them, but I think we're in too deep. But seriously, given that the other options are Pence or Ryan, a feeble, discredited Trump administration that takes the Republican Party down with it might actually be the best deal.

Any day that's bad for Trump is a good day.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [78 favorites]

It’s heartening that the indictment includes charges relating to filing federal taxes for 2010, the statute of limitations for which runs out tomorrow. This implies that Mueller is building a juggernaut of a case, and only issued this initial indictment today because he was forced to do so, or lose the opportunity to prosecute those charges. I expect and hope that this is the start of many similar days of 𝕾𝖈𝖍𝖆𝖉𝖊𝖓𝖋𝖗𝖊𝖚𝖉𝖊.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [149 favorites]

Terrible decision to get involved in a presidential campaign w that much dirty laundry. Unless of course he had no choice.

Well, none of these motherfuckers actually thought he'd win.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

I like how straightforward the Manafort indictment is. A lot of the allegations are related to tax evasion, money laundering, failure to report financial assets etc, crimes which are far easier to prove than clandestine ties to state actors. I mean, the State is even seeking forfeiture of Manafort's life insurance policy. The conspiracy against the US allegation is really just icing on the cake.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 6:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

From a cursory, IANAL skim of the indictments, Trump could deny all knowledge. It doesn't point at the campaign as such.

Trump would have to be an idiot to appoint this guy without knowing this was going on, but (a) he is, and (b) that fact will be lost on his true disciples.
posted by oheso at 6:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

I am reading the indictment now. Every time I read "MANAFORT and GATES" in all-caps I can't help seeing a bony, pointing finger jabbing out at me in emphasis.

It's delicious.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

I bet every single one of them who bent the truth or straight up lied on their FARA, FBAR, and/or every other government form they've filled out in the past year are shitting themselves right now.
posted by elsietheeel at 6:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

i'm crossing my fingers hoping this all ties back to president trump but i'm not feeling particularly optimistic

The entire Trump org was never a real business. The whole thing was a front for laundering oceans of dirty Russian money. Manafort lived in Trump tower for a reason. There's MUCH more to come just on the money side, before we even talk about what happened during the campaign. Sit back, it's going to be a long ride still.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [96 favorites]

Ukrainian lawyer seeks probe of alleged texts from Manfort's daughters. Remember the ones where she was all "our money is blood money, our father has no moral compass, he got people killed in Ukraine"? (Showing that she is possibly the only person with the tiniest faintest glimmer of moral understanding in this whole mess, at least.)

The more traction that gets, the better. People need to understand how horrible the situation in Ukraine has been and how badly Russia has acted*.

*I get that Russia has security concerns and Ukraine is a big deal; that doesn't mean that anything goes.
posted by Frowner at 6:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [38 favorites]

I bet every single one of them who bent the truth or straight up lied on their FARA, FBAR, and/or every other government form they've filled out in the past year are shitting themselves right now.

That would include Jared, no?
posted by oheso at 6:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Am I the only one enjoying the coincidence that the text just below "X new comments, show" is a cackling "ha-ha-ha-HA ha"
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 6:39 AM on October 30, 2017 [134 favorites]

From the indictment:

"To conceal the scheme, MANAFORT and GATES developed a false and misleading cover story that would distance themselves and the Government of Ukraine, Yanukovych, and the Party of Regions from the Centre, Company A, and Company B. For instance, in the wake of extensive press reports on MANAFORT and his connections with Ukraine, on August 16, 2016, GATES communicated false talking points to Company B in writing...

Company B through a principal replied to GATES the same day that "there's a lot of email traffic that has you much more involved than this suggests[.] We will not disclose that but heaven knows what former employees of [Company B] or [Company A] might say."

This is Manafort and Gates still in contact with lobbying firms during the campaign, instructing them to cover up their involvement. This is not just tax fraud.
posted by parallellines at 6:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [103 favorites]

My tl;dr of the indictment: Manafort and Gates were paid around $75m in total between 2006 and 2014 to lobby on behalf of the Ukraine government of the time, headed up by Viktor Yanukovych who subsequently fled to Russia after the Ukrainian revolution in 2014.

Most of us would call an unsolicited offer of $75m - from a very-important-sounding man in Ukraine who claimed to be forced to divulge the remanent of his fortune to us before fleeing to the protection of his Russian Godfather - a 419 scam and be done with it.
posted by rongorongo at 6:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

From a cursory, IANAL skim of the indictments, Trump could deny all knowledge. It doesn't point at the campaign as such.

As I understand how a big case works, it doesn't have to tie to Trump to be good material. This is a stick they use to beat information out of Manafort and Gates with. As long as it's a credible threat to them, it's effective leverage where Mueller's team needs it.
posted by jackbishop at 6:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Agreed, @jackbishop. I was just thinking aloud about what Trump's reaction might be (apart from "but Hillary Uranium Fusion!!!!" I mean ... ).
posted by oheso at 6:47 AM on October 30, 2017

Also, others have pointed out that the charges do cover periods where they were active in the campaign.
posted by oheso at 6:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I dunno, Putin is strong to evil, but he isn't magic, and it might not actually be incredibly smart to murder a high profile American Republican out of hand. Hasn't almost everyone Putin's done in been Russian or Eastern European? And hasn't there been some plausible deniability? Manafort is in the spotlight right now like whoa, and if he turns up dead of polonium poisoning it's not like everyone is going to be scratching their heads. Killing him would be a virtual admission of guilt, right?
posted by Frowner at 6:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

The big one here is the money laundering. I've skimmed the indictment. The evidence is as comprehensive as you'd expect from Mueller's team.

Manafort acted as a foreign agent without registering. That's up to $10,000 and five years.
The conspiracy against the US is $5,000 and five years.
The tax fraud relates to a whopping $75 million, and is another five years, plus the vast financial consequences the IRS will seek.
There are also the usual false statments charges - an easy 5 year term they always go for.

But it's the money laundering that's the big one. Up to $500,000 in fines and twenty years in jail. They are also seeking forfeiture of the property involved in the fraud, which is mostly real estate and an insurance policy.

This is all in 2006 to 2014, so none of it relates to the Trump campaign.

Key points: It's all before the campaign.
It's tax fraud and money laundering relating to about $75 million. This will be forfeit.
Manafort is screwed. 20 years in prison is on the table.
Gates is also screwed, but will probably get a shorter term.

I don't see how either can plead their way out of this. Mueller has them by the balls.
posted by Combat Wombat at 6:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [47 favorites]

We're at a bit of a cusp point.

The big question, to me anyway, is whether or not the Republican President will pardon Manafort. If so, that's basically the same as firing Muller without actually, technically, firing him. Sure, possibly, maybe state charges are a thing but I'm doubtful. And the idea that somehow losing the right to plead the Fifth is a big deal also seems overblown. Trump has already pardoned someone for contempt of court. If he pardons Manafort for his crimes, and then Manafort refuses to testify, or invokes executive privilege in the weird not really invoking it sort of way that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions seems so fond of, what is a judge going to do? Threaten him with contempt of court so Trump can pardon him for that too?

In theory that's the sort of behavior that'd lead to a Constitutional crisis and the Republican Congress turning on the Republican President to bring impeachment. In practice I think he'd get away with it because the Republican Congress will not impeach no matter what. They're still smarting over Nixon's resignation, they will not, they cannot, tolerate another ousted Republican President no matter how egregious the crimes.

If the Republican President pardons Manafort things go one way, and we slide further towards possible civil war. The Republican Congress would be hoping that America's short attention span means there'd be a few days of mass protests followed by everyone just complaining online and doing nothing.

But the frightening the thing is, given who and what Trump is, the decision to pardon won't be based on any actual consideration of political realities and calculated political risk taking it'll be based on how much he personally likes Muller and wants to save him. And that's largely imponderable.

I'd like to say that if Trump allows the Muller indictment to stand it'd make it more difficult for him to pardon others in the future, but that's not true. Trump will do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, and will never, ever, pay any price for it.

As always, our only real hope is that this provides enough fodder for political advertising in 2018 and 2020 that we can retake the government.

And if we do, we **CAN NOT** allow the hypothetical Democratic administration and Congress to "look forward, not back" as Obama did over Junior's crimes. We've got to admit that norms have shifted, that the generally good idea of not trying to imprison or prosecute defeated political opponents must be recognized as having limits. We cannot allow people who stole an election via foreign interference to escape unpunished.
posted by sotonohito at 6:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

Hasn't almost everyone Putin's done in been Russian or Eastern European?

Nope. Multiple straight-up murders right here in London, unpursued by our security forces. He has no problem reaching overseas when it suits him.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

Manafort and Gates hid all that money in offshore accounts, laundered it in various ways, and lied repeatedly to the DoJ and IRS about their activities.

Yeah, I may be overly optimistic, but I'm imagining the rallying cry taking down DJT will be "But his tax returns!"
posted by mikelieman at 6:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I dunno, Putin is strong to evil, but he isn't magic, and it might not actually be incredibly smart to murder a high profile American Republican out of hand. Hasn't almost everyone Putin's done in been Russian or Eastern European?

From Russia With Blood - 14 suspected hits on British Soil
posted by PenDevil at 6:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

The only person happier than I am about this indictment is Kevin Spacey.
posted by Optamystic at 6:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [76 favorites]

> We're at a bit of a cusp point.

for reals if time travel were a thing today would be just crawling with time travelers.

oh god it's almost halloween normally you can recognize time travelers by their capes, shiny silver jumpsuits, and hi-tech goggles but today they'd blend in.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

Local radio news here has just said that Bill Gates has been arrested for conspiracy against the USA

I mean who among us does not feel that Clippy deserves a perp walk
posted by halation at 6:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [75 favorites]

everyone, please, if you see genderqueer time travelers with luxury communist badges, do everything you can to help them. if you see straight white male time travelers with kek/pepe badges, do everything you can to thwart them.

the fate of the multiverse depends on it.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [117 favorites]

“Conspiracy against the United States” might not be the big hitter in terms of punishment, but it’s the grand prize for PR.
posted by double bubble at 6:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [41 favorites]

“Hi! It looks like you’re trying to commit financial crimes!”
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [111 favorites]

🚓🎃💀 HAPPY MUELLERWEEN!!! 💀🎃🚓
posted by elsietheeel at 6:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [76 favorites]

Just read the indictment. Next year when I do my FBAR, I promise not to bitch about the terrible interface or having to slog through my bank's terrible interface, but only to kiss the envelope with glee and gratefulness that that tiny stupid document has the power to take down giant assholes.
posted by sldownard at 6:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

everyone, please, if you see genderqueer time travelers with luxury communist badges, do everything you can to help them.

okay but can I also grip them by their silver-nano FutureBoots and plaintively cry "PLEASE TAKE ME WITH YOUUUU"
posted by halation at 6:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

So when is Roger Stone going to be indicted? I don't think it's emphasized enough that Stone, Manafort and Gates are long-time business partners who have also been Trump associates for years and years, long before the 2016 campaign. You put the squeeze on those mopes and the whole thing falls apart.
posted by dis_integration at 6:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

🚓🎃💀 HAPPY MUELLERWEEN!!! 💀🎃🚓

Fox running that candy piece shows how desperately they're banking on "treat"
posted by flabdablet at 6:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I'm absolutely loving that this is clearly just a side effect of Mueller's investigation. It's a solid, cut-and-dried indictment that's going to take Manafort down, but which doesn't even touch on where Mueller's actually going next. It's Indiana Jones going 'oh, for fuck's sake' and pulling out the pistol before getting on with his day.

I would say there's no chance of a pardon because it's such a massive criminal fraud and because the WH is already doing the 'Eh, how could we have known he was a bad 'un? Who knew? Nobody could have known' ritual. But this is 2017, this is 45, he's got the red laser spot dancing across his forehead, so who indeed can possibly know what happens next.
posted by Devonian at 6:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [40 favorites]

If you're not into celebrating Muellerween, today is also Arrestivus (for the rest of us.)
posted by emelenjr at 7:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [162 favorites]

One year and one day ago in the NYT: Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia
posted by PenDevil at 7:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

While we are discussing these indictments and everything that goes with them, let's also remember that this is going to make the GOP double down on their agenda. They are going to try to speed up tax cuts for billionaires, dismantling the ACA, destroying voter protections, etc etc. So while we can be excited about Mueller making progress, we have to keep fighting them. We can't help Mueller but we can try to stop the destruction.
posted by mcduff at 7:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

As said over and over in these threads, a pardon would remove Manafort’s ability to take the 5th, and it wouldn’t do jack and or shit about state crimes, and I would bet a lot of money that the New York AG is drooling and scrabbling at the hardwood floors in his office like a mad man over this.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I would say there's no chance of a pardon because it's such a massive criminal fraud and because the WH is already doing the 'Eh, how could we have known he was a bad 'un? Who knew? Nobody could have known' ritual. But this is 2017, this is 45, he's got the red laser spot dancing across his forehead, so who indeed can possibly know what happens next.

Like 8 pages in there's this wonderful table of people receiving the laundered money, so I imagine those State AG's have things they can indict for. There's also a list of assets used to launder that money, and in NY, there's 2...

I imagine everyone else with a guilty conscience is freaking out now.

Good.
posted by mikelieman at 7:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

If you're not into celebrating Muellerween, today is also Arrestivus (for the rest of us.)

And Perpwalkikah, if you celebrate. The best thing about Perpwalkikah is that it's spread out over multiple days.
posted by PlusDistance at 7:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [82 favorites]

So we know Trump is delusional...but just HOW delusional could he be? I wonder if he's furious that Manafort and Gates got caught, panicked that the axe is about to fall on him and his own, or staunchly convinced that somehow it's all going to tie back to Her Emails?

I'm guessing A and C. Is he self-aware enough for even the barest dash of B?
posted by elsietheeel at 7:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

It's not as juicy as if the whole Trump family was indicted, but I am glad to see Manafort indicted so soon. I trust that Mueller and his team are not going to ignore all other crimes in order to snag just one big fish.
posted by stowaway at 7:05 AM on October 30, 2017

I don't see why Russia would be pissed off. Putin's goal was to cause chaos and diminish the US. He's done that and an administration being bogged down in scandal and controversy and maybe even brought down is just another bonus layer of that. I'm sure Putin is laughing at this, not worried about it.

Putin needs the Magnitsky Act repealed. With it in place, it's a lot harder for him to manage his oligarchy. And with ENTIRE REPUBLICAN POLITICAL APPARATUS SELLS NATION OUT TO RUSSIANS as the headlines, it becomes harder to achieve that goal by the day.
posted by Gelatin at 7:05 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Eight days of flashing red and blue lights.
posted by elsietheeel at 7:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [40 favorites]

(And so as not to abuse the edit window, I can remember when Republicans called people who protested the Vietnam War -- or any preferred Republican policy -- dupes of Moscow. I will not forgive them for actually, actively, and eagerly selling this country out to Russia in order to bolster their flagging political fortunes.)
posted by Gelatin at 7:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [71 favorites]

@NoahGrayCNN: Source close to WH tells @saramurray “These guys were bad guys when they started, they were bad guys when they left,"not related to campaign

Drain the swamp!
posted by zombieflanders at 7:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

An important phrase on page one of the indictment: "through at least 2016."

We're about to hear a massive amount of "none of this has anything to do with Russia or the campaign and it just proves that Mueller needs to be fired because he spent all this time and he didn't come up with any collusion." The fact is that Manafort was working for Trump for free while living of the proceeds of the money he's accused here of laundering. And to be terribly unoriginal, if you're not paying for it, you're not the customer, you're the product being sold.

Specifically, he's charged with loan fraud, lying to a bank in 2015-2016 by claiming one property was occupied by his family when he was renting it on Airbnb (next step: NYC should investigate whether it was an illegal short-term rental, also a few HuffPo articles of the form "turns out I stayed in Manafort's apartment on my vacation"). Why is a guy lying to banks to access millions of dollars while working for a billionaire for free? And why did the GOP platform change?

Lying to the Treasury about foreign bank accounts is just stupid here, and should prompt renewed calls for Trump to release his tax returns. And the accusation of submitting false statements to DOJ during the investigation about his lobbying is just delicious.

This is pretty much the first and only time I've been happy about being awake before 7am.
posted by zachlipton at 7:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

@SebGorka is on the Delusion Train. Choo choo!

Wire transfers 12 years ago & Ukraine? So nothing to do with @realDonaldTrump, the election, & Russia?? @CNNPolitics etc. will be sad.
posted by elsietheeel at 7:08 AM on October 30, 2017

I'm a bit agog at the magnificence of $934,350 paid to Vendor C, an antique rug store in Alexandria, Virginia.

That's a lot of rug. Presumably there was a lot to hide under it.
posted by Devonian at 7:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [86 favorites]

Source close to WH tells @saramurray “These guys were bad guys when they started, they were bad guys when they left,"not related to campaign

You could almost say "You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in."
posted by zachlipton at 7:09 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

It occurs to me that "Manafort and Gates" could be substituted for "Treasury or State" without doing any significant violence to rhyme or rhythm. I beseech you, MeFites with a talent for such things, write us a Hamilton parody song to celebrate today!
posted by Westringia F. at 7:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

And the indictment included lying on their FARA and FBAR forms, which they filled out after Trump's inauguration, as part of his administration.
posted by elsietheeel at 7:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

That's a lot of rug. Presumably there was a lot to hide under it.

All the Fort ever wanted was his rug back.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

> That's a lot of rug. Presumably there was a lot to hide under it.

That rug really tied the conspiracy together.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [167 favorites]

zombieflanders: @NoahGrayCNN: Source close to WH tells @saramurray “These guys were bad guys when they started, they were bad guys when they left,"not related to campaign

So, source close to WH, why did they ever work there? Is your vetting that bad? No, no it isn't. It instead implies that they were joining like minds (and morals).

NPR was ready for this: What Is Money Laundering? And Why Does It Matter To Robert Mueller? (Oct. 24, 2017) -- a long article that breaks down:

* What is money laundering?
* How big a deal is money laundering?
* Are governments trying to crack down?
* Why does it matter in the Robert Mueller investigation?

With handy in-article anchors, so you can jump to the section of interest, or read it all.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

[Judicial nerd alert]: In case you are wondering, the case is assigned to this judge: Amy Berman Jackson - I find it satisfying that a female judge will be in charge if they move forward (and an Obama appointee). Some more about her previous decisions (but not in any order because Monday). Here is her nomination questionnaire. Oh and this random family fact.
posted by anya32 at 7:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

The Republican Party Is Gearing Up for War on the Rule of Law
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

Greg Sargent: Paul Manafort just got indicted. Here’s what Robert Mueller wants to ask him now.

I spoke this morning to Paul Rosenzweig, a senior counsel on Ken Starr’s investigation into Bill Clinton who is now a lecturer in law at George Washington University. Rosenzweig said: “Mueller is trying to use the specter of criminal prosecution and jail time to induce Paul Manafort to be truthful in his testimony about the nature of the Trump campaign’s relations with Russia.”

Rosenzweig laid out some of the lines of inquiry that Mueller will try to pursue with Manafort, if he can get him to cooperate (which is obviously unknown at this point).

First, there’s the meeting that Donald Trump, Jr., arranged with Russians in the expectation that the Trump campaign would be given damaging information on Hillary Clinton that originated with the Russian government. Manafort and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner were there, and there are reports of cryptic notes that Manafort took at the meeting that are in Mueller’s possession.

Rosenzweig says Mueller will want to question Manafort about what happened at the meeting, but that’s only the beginning. “Were you contacted after the meeting by the Russians in any follow up?” Rosenzweig says Manafort would likely be asked. “During your tenure as campaign chair, did you discuss this meeting with Donald J. Trump?”

That last one is particularly relevant, since it could shed light on what Trump knew about the meeting and when. Also recall that Trump had a hand in drafting the initial statement from Donald Jr. that lied to the nation about why the meeting was held, which directly implicated Trump himself in covering up this meeting. Meanwhile, we also have just learned from the New York Times that the Russian lawyer at the meeting appeared to be sharing notes with a high level figure in the Russian government. Manafort likely knows the full story of this meeting, what went into it, the surrounding context, and direct relevance of it to Trump himself.

posted by zombieflanders at 7:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Depending on the rug that could be one rug. Rugs can be quite expensive.
posted by winna at 7:13 AM on October 30, 2017

Donald Trump likes to present himself as a neophyte and political outsider, but that’s not even remotely true. He fantasized about a run for president as early as 1987. Article from De Correspondent (Dutch source) form July, but useful to point out how long Trump and Manafort have been associated.
posted by stonepharisee at 7:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Months ago when there were all these jokes about the Trump family being eerily parallel to the Bluth family I kept thinking "why couldn't their little retail operation on the wharf be called the Banana Fort instead of the Banana Stand?"

because then I could have made some dumb pun about how "there's always money in the Mananafort" but

anyway I never could work out any joke that wasn't a huge leap, and I'm leaving this here today as my sad pathetic legacy.

even though it turns out I was right

there's always money in the Mananafort.
posted by komara at 7:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [69 favorites]

Manafort and Trump son-in-law Jared Kushner were there, and there are reports of cryptic notes that Manafort took at the meeting that are in Mueller’s possession.

WHY WOULD YOU TAKE AND THEN KEEP NOTES?
posted by elsietheeel at 7:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

On Trump's schedule today:

" "*12:30PM THE PRESIDENT has lunch with Vice President Mike Pence and Attorney General Jeff Sessions*
**
* *"Private Dining Room"
""
" Closed Press"

Didn't everyone spend months losing their shit over the Loretta Lynch meeting, but we'll be told this is perfectly appropriate? I'm sure we'll now have the White House insist that they never talked about Manafort at all, until Trump randomly announces "of course we talked about it" on TV.
posted by zachlipton at 7:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [66 favorites]

BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!

@ABCPolitics: BREAKING: Former Trump campaign advisor George Papadopolous has pleaded guilty to making false statements to FBI agents.

Here's the indictment.
posted by zachlipton at 7:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [113 favorites]

zachlipton: that meeting is bookended by meetings with Tillerson and Mattis.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

WHY WOULD YOU TAKE AND THEN KEEP NOTES?

ON A CRIMINAL FUCKING CONSPIRACY

seriously, guys. i've been laughing all morning. the young idris elba is just gravy on the waffle fries.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [70 favorites]

Wire transfers 12 years ago & Ukraine? So nothing to do with @realDonaldTrump, the election, & Russia?? @CNNPolitics etc. will be sad.

The longer Trump & co. believe this (or even publicly act like they believe this), the better. Gives Mueller more time to work.

The charges are such that Trump can't reasonably pardon Manafort (who he's already distanced himself from), and even if he did, it still doesn't sort Manafort out from the state tax issues.

All the time Mueller can squeeze Manafort for everything he knows.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

It occurs to me that "Manafort and Gates" could be substituted for "Treasury or State" without doing any significant violence to rhyme or rhythm. I beseech you, MeFites with a talent for such things, write us a Hamilton parody song to celebrate today!

Genius has the lyrics, for those who need a break from srs bznss.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Trump Alert
@TrumpsAlert

EricTrump liked this tweet:
Bill Mitchell
@mitchellvii
Morning #TrumpTrain!
posted by Room 641-A at 7:18 AM on October 30, 2017

BREAKING: Former Trump campaign advisor George Papadopolous has pleaded guilty to making false statements to FBI agents.

George! How could you do that to Ma'am and Webster!?!
posted by elsietheeel at 7:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

@ABCPolitics: BREAKING: Former Trump campaign advisor George Papadopolous has pleaded guilty to making false statements to FBI agents.

So already pleading guilty. Could that mean he's flipped and pleaded out for reduced sentence for cooperation?
posted by chris24 at 7:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

Much of the focus is on Manafort because he is a name already. I think this Gates fellow is going to prove to be more useful in getting more direct and recent ties to Trumps admin. It looks like he has been around the WH a lot.
posted by Jalliah at 7:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

So already pleading guilty. Could that mean he's flipped and pleaded out for reduced sentence for cooperation?

...and read the final page. He was arrested back in July.

Imagine how much more they've learned since then.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

So about Papadopolous... From August.

A foreign policy adviser on President Donald Trump’s campaign made repeated efforts to arrange meetings with contacts he had in Russia, the Washington Post reported Monday.

The Post reported that in at least half a dozen email requests sent between March and September 2016, adviser George Papadopoulos urged Trump or senior members of his campaign to meet with Russian officials. Some of those emails were read to the newspaper by a person with access to them.

In one, Papadopoulos offered to arrange “a meeting between us and the Russian leadership to discuss US-Russia ties under President Trump,” as quoted by the Post.

A self-described energy consultant, Papadopoulos was the youngest and least experienced member of the small foreign policy team Trump abruptly formed last March after coming under criticism for his lack of foreign policy expertise.

posted by chris24 at 7:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

Could that mean he's flipped and pleaded out for reduced sentence for cooperation?

Yes, it could.
posted by oheso at 7:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Um, this Papadopolous indictment is a big fucking deal, and if he's already flipped, holy shit:

"Defendant PAPADOPOULOS acknowledged that the professor had told him about the RUssians possessing "dirt" on then-candidate Hillary Clinton in the form of "thousands of emails," but stated multiple times that he learned that information prior to joining the Campaign. In truth and in fact, defendant PAPADOPOULOS learned he would be an advisor to the Campaign in early March, and me the professor on or about March 14, 2016; the professor only took interest in defendant PAPADOPOULOS because of his status with the campaign; and the professor told defendant PAPADOPOULOS about the "thousands of emails" on or about April 26, 2016, when defendant PAPADOPOULOS had been a foreign policy advisor to the Campaign for over a month.

It goes on to explain that Papadopolous lied to investigators about knowing that the professor's "substantial connections fo Russian government officials (and had met with some of those officials in Moscow immediately prior to telling defendant PAPADOPULOUS about the "thousands of emails")" and that he tried to use the professor's connections to arrange meetings between the Campaign and Russian government officials.

Anybody wants to say the Manafort indictment isn't about Russia, that's one thing, but this sure as hell is.
posted by zachlipton at 7:25 AM on October 30, 2017 [126 favorites]

President is taking the news well:

@realDonaldTrump: Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????
posted by zachlipton at 7:26 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Papadopolous has pleaded guilty to making false statements. In the statement he has signed as being true, he admits to a whole bagful of collusion with Russians while he was an advisor to the Trump campaign.

In a rational world, this would be dynamite. The senior foreign policy advisor to a US presidential candidate has admitted he was colluding with Russians to advance Russian state interests.

Papadopolous has flipped. The dominos are already falling.
posted by Combat Wombat at 7:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [103 favorites]

I’m just going to walk around all day randomly shouting “PAPADOPOULOS!” with a big smile on my face
posted by schadenfrau at 7:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

The indictment includes alleged criminal acts during the campaign. Nice try, Blanco Niño, but too bad your ass got saaaaaaaaacked
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 7:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [65 favorites]

But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

FOUR QUESTION MARKS.

He shook up.
posted by dis_integration at 7:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

Um, this Papadopolous indictment is a big fucking deal, and if he's already flipped, holy shit:

And he's literally the most junior guy on the foreign policy team. Guy's so young he actually listed the Model UN on his resume.

You start with the little guys, they ones Trump doesn't care about enough to pardon, and flip the whole deck one card at a time, silently, and then drop the whole pile of bricks at once.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

Can I just say that it's fucking rich that in the US, a kid charged with wearing a hoodie while black in public is likely to have guns drawn on him and/or shot, but a white man charged with CONSPIRACY AGAINST THE US is sent a polite Doodle Poll offering times to surrender at his earliest convenience. FFS.
posted by notorious medium at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [146 favorites]

The Papadopolous one is *kisses fingers*

I will change my "who flipped" scorecard. Maybe Flynn, maybe not, but definitely this guy.

I'm running out of red string.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

It occurs to me that "Manafort and Gates" could be substituted for "Treasury or State" without doing any significant violence to rhyme or rhythm.

♬ Two laboratory mice, their genes have been spliced... ♬
posted by Mayor West at 7:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

I don't think it's remotely an unfair reading to summarize it as: one of Trump's foreign policy advisors pled guilty to lying to the FBI about collusion with Russia during the campaign
posted by zachlipton at 7:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

"....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!"
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Yeah. Go read the the Papadopolus indictment. There’s a detailed timeline of Trump Campaign efforts to meet with high ranking Russian foreign affairs types with lots of enticing references to Campaign Supervisors and Certain Female Russian Nationals.

It all sorta undercuts the WH spin about Manafort’s crimes predating the campaign and not involving Russia.

(Haven’t we seen this dance before where the WH gets caught, they concoct a cover story that denies it’s about Russia and then five minutes later Ron Howard says, “It’s about Russia”?)
posted by notyou at 7:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!

Nice try.
posted by cirhosis at 7:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

"....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!"

Almost did a genuine spit take with this one. The bastard doth protest too much, methinks.
posted by marshmallow peep at 7:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!

Tell it to the bear ...
posted by oheso at 7:34 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

(The indictment can’t decide if it wants to spell it “adviser” or “advisor” and it’s making my eye twitch.)
posted by notyou at 7:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

These people are such liars. I mean, I have done leftish political activism since I was literally fourteen, I have had the leftest views that were possible to someone raised in a provincial, conservative suburb since I was ten or eleven and I still feel like just flapping my hands and saying "why do you have to lie so much, what is WRONG with you?"

Oh, they are so crooked! I hope every last one of them goes to jail. We should abolish the prisons for everyone except them. They can be the last.
posted by Frowner at 7:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [69 favorites]

What are the miniscule odds that the "Professor" that is mentioned in Papadopolous indictment turns out to be Aleksandr Dugin?
posted by PenDevil at 7:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Is there any information on why the Papadopolus indictment was unsealed today? They've been sitting on this one since July and it seems unconnected to the Manafort/Gates indictment, so why now?
posted by parallellines at 7:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

'Hey, my campaign manager and trusted advisor long afterwards was in hock for millions to, and criminally compromised by, a hostile foreign power who interfered in the election. Good news for me!'

Hahahaha.
posted by chris24 at 7:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

@realDonaldTrump: ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!

U mad bro?
posted by zakur at 7:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

...PAPADOPOULOS!
posted by schadenfrau at 7:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!

I think Charlie Murphy said it best.
posted by cmfletcher at 7:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Papadopolus indictment was unsealed today probably b/c they were able to close the deal on Manafort?
posted by nothing.especially.clever at 7:39 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

John Oliver has been calling this Stupid Watergate for nearly a year now. Today we got an inkling of just how stupid it actually is.

(He might actually get to deploy the We Got Him! celebration for real soon.)
posted by elsietheeel at 7:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

One thing that strikes me in the Papadopoulos indictment is that they have emails. They have the campaign's emails! What other info have they gotten from the emails?
posted by mcduff at 7:43 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

I wonder what 45 and Pence have to talk about over lunch? Could it be Manafort's role in ousting Christie as the VP nominee?

Pence is getting his share of this.
posted by Devonian at 7:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Marshall again:

3/ It's almost like Mueller folks sucker punched Trumpers letting them react to Manafort charges and then dropping this [the PAPADOPOULOS* indictment]

God that is so good

*my phone autocorrects to all caps on PAPADOPOULOS now
posted by schadenfrau at 7:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [98 favorites]

I am 1000% certain that lunch is because Trump thinks Sessions is his personal lawyer.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [108 favorites]

Anything big enough to take down Trump will take down Pence, he is fully entangled. Though that is counting chickens at this point.
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

"....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!"

For maximum effect, I've been reading this in the tone of Michael Scott, hands upturned to the sky, proclaiming "I declare BANKRUPTCY!"
posted by Mayor West at 7:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

He was arrested back in July. Imagine how much more they've learned since then.

Tweet with scan of Papadopoulos plea deal.

@jbarro: "Following his arrest, defendant PAPADOPOULOS met with the Government on numerous occasions to provide information" [also with scan of document confirming this].
posted by Buntix at 7:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

That Trump tweet doesn't read like him. Starting with "Sorry" and so on.
posted by werkzeuger at 7:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Like you and other dirty money launderers maybe, Donny.

@kaitlancollins:
Trump in August: "I've always found Manafort to be a very decent man. He's like other people -- makes consultant fees all over the place."
posted by chris24 at 7:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Brian Beutler: Our authoritarian test is upon us

As noted here last week, the three Republican senators in open defiance of Trump have the potential to place real limits on what Trump might dare do—but only if they are the faces of something more than a Potemkin rebellion.

Sens. John McCain (R-AZ), Bob Corker (R-TN), and Jeff Flake (R-AZ) can’t remove Trump from office, but they could jointly and credibly spell out consequences they’d impose were Trump to kill the Russia investigation.

They could pledge that if Trump fires Mueller, they will stop all legislation from passing until Congress reinstates Mueller. They could pledge that if Trump issues pardons for crimes his campaign committed, they will use similar leverage to insist upon an impeachment inquiry, complete with full public disclosure of any information Mueller has unearthed about them.

By saying nothing, they tempt Trump with the belief that Republicans in Congress will let him get away with anything. No doubt he believes that already, and with good reason. In theory, these senators can wait until Trump acts on his impulses and then impose the consequences anyhow, but having failed to establish the disincentive in advance, the temptation to do the easy thing, let bygones be bygones if Trump acts first, will be enormous.

posted by zombieflanders at 7:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [55 favorites]

People keep pulling out quotes from Papadopolous on Twitter and I’m flabbergasted. I thought this would simmer for a long time, adjacent but not confirmably related but this feels like a bombshell.

On or about May 13, 2016, the professor emailed defendant Papadopoulos with “an update“ of what they had discussed in their “recent conversations, and “including: “we will continue to liaise through you with the Russian counterparts in terms of what is needed for a high-level meeting of Mr. Trump with the Russian Federation“

posted by Brainy at 7:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [66 favorites]

I can hear the screeching of "THE GREEK FLIPPED!" coming from inside the West Wing already.
posted by PenDevil at 7:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

@ABCPolitics: BREAKING: Former Trump campaign advisor George Papadopolous has pleaded guilty to making false statements to FBI agents.

I feel sorry for Webster tho 🙁
posted by donatella at 7:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Papadopolous definitely flipped, his plea deal says: "The Government agrees to bring to the Court's attention at sentencing the defendant's efforts to cooperate with the Government..."
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

First professional impressions: The Manafort and Gates indictment tell of an impressive amount of lawbreaking, and I'm keen to see what happens. The law is clear, and I'm assuming the evidence trail is clear, leaving these guys nowhere to go.

As for the Papadopoulos indictment, this is pretty stupid lawbreaking. Who hired this guy? Oh, right...

Legally, I'm not seeing a lot of options for these guys, and by extension, Donny. Mueller's got them all by the short and sassys, and simple spin isn't going to make that go away.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Starting with "Sorry" and so on.

Yeah, that does sound a bit like a certain whiny debate club Santa Monica fascist might have been consulted.
posted by contraption at 7:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

SOP for both Comey and Mueller so far has been every time they make a major move, Trump's people circle the wagons and start blasting out lies. Then more "leaks" happen that show prove that they're lying. Repeat ad nauseum.

At least as far as what Mueller and his team can do, I think we can count on them to do it. That's not to say that Mueller will "save us" but that he's going to provide us with the tool we can use to save ourselves.

So they arrest Gates and Manafort on charges that leave enough slack in the rope for Trump's goons to hang themselves with by letting them claim that the reasons they were arrested have nothing at all to do with them. "It was all stuff from before he worked for us!"

Then we learn, OH BTW! we've been talking to this dude who flipped and he signed this court document what says everything that's come out of your mouth just now is a lie. Would you like to give up now or will you keep digging yourselves in deeper? I've got so much shit back at the office on you guys I can do this ALL DAY, EVERY DAY!
posted by VTX at 7:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

Because they are investigating your crimes?
posted by thelonius at 7:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Here's the FBI's Papadopoulos affidavit too.

I do think the biggest thing here is not that Papadopolous lied to the FBI or even that he's cooperating, but that apparent Russian agents were talking to him about Clinton's emails as early as April 2016. That's about as early as it gets, just as the DNC was investigating the hacks. And months before Trump called on Russia to "find" Clinton's emails.

Also, not to start a debate here, but does a cinnamon roll count as cake? Because, let's start the cake party!
posted by zachlipton at 7:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

New asspull theory: They're just making sure they have some state charges lined up for Don Jr. before indicting him because he will be insta-pardoned otherwise. Dolt 45 is happy to throw the rest of these chuckleheads under the bus, but he'd pardon his son before the ink was dry.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

The Papadopolous timeline keeps mentioning "High-Ranking Campaign Official", but never names that person. Whaddya wanna bet that it's Manafort?
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Wow. @matthewamiller: The FBI interview where Papadopolous lied about his Russia contacts came on the same day, Jan. 27, Trump asked Comey for a loyalty pledge.

That's a fun fact for any future obstruction charge against Trump.
posted by zachlipton at 7:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [104 favorites]

I just want whoever made that From Russia with Love video to update it with real footage as this goes on until in the end its just the actual footage of them getting taken down.
posted by ST!NG at 7:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Interesting tidbit of trivia in the middle of this good Charlie Pierce article:

The role of the Bank of Cyprus in all of this has taken on a critical importance and it’s important to remember that Wilbur Ross, the current Secretary of Commerce, used to be on the board of that bank before he joined Camp Runamuck. This damn thing could go everywhere.

posted by zombieflanders at 7:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [63 favorites]

from nymag article linked above:

The party apparatus is gearing up for a frontal attack on Mueller in particular, and the idea that a president can be held legally accountable in general.

the ides that a Republican president can be held legally accountable in general
posted by thelonius at 7:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

I can't believe NONE of this Papadopoulos stuff leaked.

The difference is that Mueller and Co. are competent. And undoubtedly believe the future of their country is at stake.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [58 favorites]

Guys I can't remember who posted the Hillary IT'S HAPPENING gif but I think we could use it again in this thread.
posted by Fleebnork at 7:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

I feel sorry for Webster tho

Spending my time just holding the line, never getting caught up.
Russia never brought up, it's not the thing to do.

It was you... then came you!
You made me leap without taking a look.
It was you... then came you!
You reeled me right in line, sinker, and hook.
Never thought collusion was the best I could do!
Then came you!
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

I peeked at Fox News. They had Brian Kilmeade on and the host asked BK not what he thought about the indictments, but what his callers thought. Yeah, let's get the least informed people to weigh in. That's quality journalism. /sarcasm
posted by puddledork at 8:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

WHY DOES HE HAVE THE SAME NAME AS WEBSTER'S ADOPTIVE FATHER

Mongo only pawn in game of life.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [70 favorites]

Among other things, Paul Manafort may have also broken Airbnb’s terms of service
Surely this...
posted by PenDevil at 8:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [65 favorites]

Holy poop, guys

I will never doubt Mueller Claus again
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 8:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

We grow up reading stories about small groups of people saving the world. It's fantasy. But Mueller and his team know that by doing their job well, they may have an opportunity to remove the President from office and save the world. One imagines this is more effective than a dozen motivational posters.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

Popadopulous was communicating with foreign agents via Facebook.

File under "House of Cards, with the characters from Arrested Development."
posted by entropone at 8:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [105 favorites]

It’s heartening that the indictment includes charges relating to filing federal taxes for 2010, the statute of limitations for which runs out tomorrow. This implies that Mueller is building a juggernaut of a case, and only issued this initial indictment today because he was forced to do so, or lose the opportunity to prosecute those charges.

The indictment discusses failure to report the foreign accounts on tax returns for 2010 and previous years, but the actual charges only relate to 2011 through 2014 for Manafort and 2011 through 2013 for gates, probably for statute of limitations reasons because it says the 2011 forms were due in June of 2012.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 8:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

it was supercrayon

Thank you, and thanks to supercrayon.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:03 AM on October 30, 2017

I'm not the only one really confused about Papadopolous corresponding with "Putin's niece," who he later found out was not related to Putin, right? I mean, that's damn weird.
posted by zachlipton at 8:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Not a good day to be a different PAPADOPOULOS on Twitter.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

“including: “we will continue to liaise through you with the Russian counterparts in terms of what is needed for a high-level meeting of Mr. Trump with the Russian Federation“

My jaw dropped so hard it hurts a little bit now.
posted by winna at 8:05 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

What are the miniscule odds that the "Professor" that is mentioned in Papadopolous indictment turns out to be Aleksandr Dugin?

By the time this is done, they'll have implicated everyone including the Professor and Mary-Ann.
posted by rokusan at 8:05 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

I read "Putin's niece" as the stupidest pseudonym/codename possible. It's like instead of going by their real names they covered their tracks by calling themselves "Sir Colluder" and "Lady Treason."
posted by the turtle's teeth at 8:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [36 favorites]

> "Well, none of these motherfuckers actually thought he'd win."

We are now approaching the "let's blow up the theater!" segment of this national showing of "The Producers".
posted by kyrademon at 8:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

And now a Brexit/Papadopoulos connection...

@carolecadwalla "Amazing! Look @Arron_banks & @andywigmore. Your friend, the Russian ambassador to London @Amb_Yakovenko named in FBI indictment!"

Above tweet quotes: @peterjukes "British angle: Papadopolous was resident here when he made the approach to Trump. His Russian contact was the UK Ambassador Yakovenko and 'Putin's Niece'"
posted by Buntix at 8:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

im not going to get any work done today am i
posted by entropicamericana at 8:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [78 favorites]

I peeked at Fox News. They had Brian Kilmeade on and the host asked BK not what he thought about the indictments, but what his callers thought. Yeah, let's get the least informed people to weigh in. That's quality journalism. /sarcasm

They probably have no idea how to spin this themselves, and need to crowd-source ideas.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

PUTINS NIECE.

I feel so bad for the writers on Veep
posted by schadenfrau at 8:09 AM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

From the WaPo back in August.

A spokesman for Manafort, whose Virginia home was raided by FBI agents three weeks ago as part of an investigation by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, said the [Papadopolous] email chain provides “concrete evidence that the Russia collusion narrative is fake news.”

“Mr. Manafort’s swift action reflects the attitude of the campaign — any invitation by Russia, directly or indirectly, would be rejected outright,” Manafort spokesman Jason Maloni said in a statement.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Manafort's firm doesn't retain emails beyond 30 days under its doc retention policy?! I've sent out lit hold letters to lots of corporations and never seen a policy this short. Is this common for lobbyists, etc., or is the short window in and of itself suggestive of a cover-up?
posted by mabelstreet at 8:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

___ ___ / | \_____ ______ ______ ___.__. / ~ \__ \ \____ \\____ < | | \ Y // __ \| |_> > |_> >___ | \___|_ /(____ / __/| __// ____| \/ \/|__| |__| \/ _____ .__ .__ ._. / \ __ __ ____ | | | | _____________ _ __ ____ ____ ____ | | / \ / \| | \_/ __ \| | | | _/ __ \_ __ \ \/ \/ // __ \_/ __ \ / \ | | / Y \ | /\ ___/| |_| |_\ ___/| | \/\ /\ ___/\ ___/| | \ \| \____|__ /____/ \___ >____/____/\___ >__| \/\_/ \___ >\___ >___| / __ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/ \/
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [55 favorites]

I feel like it's been a while since people from the administration were saying this could be solved by staying ahead of the news cycle and getting some positive public relations victories.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 8:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Popadopulous was communicating with foreign agents via Facebook.

Then deletes his Facebook and creates a new account the day after he's interviewed by the FBI (also got a new cell phone number).

These people are not very smart.
posted by zachlipton at 8:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [74 favorites]

Just caught an amazing Freudian slip on MSNBC:

We are learning of a guilty pee...plea by a former Trump campaign foreign policy adviser...
posted by zakur at 8:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [45 favorites]

Somewhere Trump is storming around the room screaming "GET THIS NICK PAPPAGIORGIO GUY! I hear he's from Yuma!"
posted by delfin at 8:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Then deletes his Facebook and creates a new account the day after he's interviewed by the FBI (also got a new cell phone number).

These people are not very smart.

I like to imagine the moment the FBI sees this come through on their wiretap or whatever. Maybe a brief, dumbfounded pause, followed by outright, uncontrolled, shared laughter amongst a group who maybe don’t know each other well yet. And then afterwards they all go out for beers, and it feels like they’re a Real Team.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [145 favorites]

The Russians must have been pretty amazed to find out what morons they were reaching out to.
posted by Mocata at 8:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [43 favorites]

But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

FOUR QUESTION MARKS.

[picard]
THERE! ARE!
FIVE!
QUESTION! MARKS!
[/picard]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [55 favorites]

I really hope the Mueller team's strategy with Manafort is just boring, by the numbers processing for the crimes on paper with ZERO interest shown in what he knows about Trump or Russia or anything else. Just treat him like any faceless perp going through the system. It would drive a bullshit alpha power politics guy like that INSANE and have him writing out evidence on holding cell toilet paper to slip to the guards by week's end.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

Then deletes his Facebook and creates a new account the day after he's interviewed by the FBI (also got a new cell phone number).

These people are not very smart.

Some people are just destined to be evidence of the Dunning–Kruger effect.
posted by jaduncan at 8:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign. But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

The indictment includes alleged criminal acts during the campaign. Nice try, Blanco Niño, but too bad your ass got saaaaaaaaacked

Okay, I was reading this whole thread, managing to maintain my composure the whole time, but this finally made me lose it. It may just be the sleep dep, of course, but I'm cracking up!
posted by darkstar at 8:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

The Russians must have been pretty amazed to find out what morons they were reaching out to.

Or, y'know, counting on it.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Now I'm wondering if Donald's trip to Japan will require an unscheduled refueling stop in Vladivostock
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

That was Manafort forwarding Papadopolous' email to Gates.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

The indictment includes alleged criminal acts during the campaign. Nice try, Blanco Niño, but too bad your ass got saaaaaaaaacked

Context added to enrich the flavor.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

omg @sevaUT: "Papadapolous timeline is key. Shows Trump campaign knew Russia had hacked emails **before** the DNC leak was public. Amazing."

Before the DNC really even knew they were hacked. The DNC didn't hire CrowdStrike to investigate until May.
posted by zachlipton at 8:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

In this era of stupid watergate, any evidence of this team's above-average capability and intelligence (even if it's just, you know, not leaking) comes as such a reassurance.
posted by mosst at 8:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

@SeanHannity: .@newtgingrich: "Nobody should underestimate how much Paul Manafort did to really help get this [Trump] campaign to where it is right now." - 19 Aug 2016
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [56 favorites]

@Phil_Mattingly: .@SpeakerRyan on WTAQ: “Nothing is gonna derail what we’re doing in Congress because we’re working on solving people’s problems.”

@ashleyfeinberg: Paul Ryan is a man of his word and no indictment will ever deter him from doing everything in his power to kill the poor
posted by zombieflanders at 8:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [89 favorites]

The Arpaio pardon was a successful test run. It confirmed that Trump can ignore the DOJ process and make completely inappropriate pardons with no real political consequences.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Ryan's doing the (Dark) Lord's work, and as such cannot and should not be concerned with these Earthly matters.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I wish there was an indictment in Ryan's future.
posted by elsietheeel at 8:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

So is Papadopoulos just too dumb to hold out for a pardon? too small-time to warrant one?

Im not saying I think the president is above pre-emptive pardons, im just curious how the current set of circumstances came to be if that was really the game plan.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 8:32 AM on October 30, 2017

I've been watching Fox News about the scandal and let me just say this: If Clinton caused the unanimous vote of a committee she wasn't on to allow the transfer of a mining company to the country containing the world's third largest uranium reserves to get nuclear weapons, she should be hung for it. We cannot allow Russia to go nuclear on our watch.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

The Russians must have been pretty amazed to find out what morons they were reaching out to.

Or, y'know, counting on it.

Is being a white dude so amazing that none of these men, NONE OF THEM, have ever worked on a project where the stupid catspaw person does stupid things that leak all over everything else because stupid spreads like spilled ink and they ended up being in trouble for not foreseeing it?

cue Jeff Goldblum saying "Stupid, Uh, Finds a Way."
posted by winna at 8:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Ryan's doing the (Dark) Lord's work, and as such cannot and should not be concerned with these Earthly matters.

Hell, if the dominoes fall just right, Ryan's in the Oval Office. I have to think that's messing with his head just a bit.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!

♫ Ain't NO COLLUSION like Trump Campaign Collusion 'cuz Trump Campaign Collusion don't stop ♫
posted by gwint at 8:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

im not going to get any work done today am i

Today? NaNo starts on Wednesday. I'll probably just write a 50K word novel about celebratory cakes.
posted by chaoticgood at 8:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Jeff Sessions was the head of foreign policy for the campaign, and testified under oath last week he knew nothing of Russian contacts.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [147 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

My take? The right wing was the butt of mainstream jokes back in the late '60s and early '70s, to the extent that Richard Nixon pretended to be a progressive and could only get progressive things like the EPA done, all the while being a racist, war-mongering reactionary shit. The wealthy John Birchers, tired of the ridicule, decided they needed to form their own sources of information, since the fact-based world rejected their awful philosophy. We got billionaire-funded right-wing "think tanks," whose only thinking was how to spin their awful philosophy to appeal to useful idiots. Then they needed media outlets to push this garbage, so we got talk radio and Limpbag and eventually Faux Nooz, Breitbart, Info Wars, etc., etc. As this was happening, the GOP got more and more radically right-wing. We got the Southern strategy to appeal to the racists, we got Frank Luntz to lie to us constantly, we got neo-Nazis, we got neo-cons, we got neo-Confederates, we got the Krazy Kristian Reich, and, eventually, we got Donald. All through a carefully constructed alternative world paved with lies and surrounded by opaque glass. They played the long game. Liberals have never perceived that they needed to twist reality to support their policies, so they've never cultivated billionaires who would fund bubbles.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

The Arpaio pardon was a successful test run. It confirmed that Trump can ignore the DOJ process and make completely inappropriate pardons with no real political consequences.

This troubles me too. Trump might decide to just go on a pardoning spree. I don’t see what would stop him. He’d just say it’s a necessity in light of the Deep State witch hunt. Then we’d just have to hope that such a blatant act of bad faith would prompt Ryan and McConnell to find some remaining spark of integrity and impeach, but who’s dumb enough to count on that?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I bet Jeff will be crying into his well-done steak with ketchup pretty soon.

(I assume when you lunch with Trump you eat what he eats or you don't eat at all.)
posted by elsietheeel at 8:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

The Arpaio pardon was a successful test run. It confirmed that Trump can ignore the DOJ process and make completely inappropriate pardons with no real political consequences.

I don't think this is the case. I think that the way the Arpaio pardon reads to the base is "Arpaio is a great guy who did great work against criminals and illegal aliens and contempt of court is just a bullshit reason to get back at him". It would have been very different if, eg, there were a bunch of emails of Arpaio saying "yes, pay me one million dollars and I will sign your prison contract, I love bribes!" or another very clear, incontrovertible illegal thing and Trump had pardoned him. Manafort, Gates and Papadopoulous are not well-known and beloved figures on the right like Arpaio, and they are pretty well sewn up from a criminal standpoint - the law is very clear on money laundering and Papadopoulous has confessed.

There's a great deal of ruin in a nation, as the fellow said. People can do a lot of terrible stuff but that doesn't mean that it's all a total chaotic evil scenario now.
posted by Frowner at 8:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Helpful timeline from Annenberg Public Policy Center. It does appear to me that Papadopoulos's guilty plea statement shows that the Trump campaign knew about the DNC email hack around April 26th 2016, long before the public found out on June 14th 2016.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [45 favorites]

(I assume when you lunch with Trump you eat what he eats or you don't eat at all.)

Or he orders you the meatloaf.
posted by nubs at 8:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

I'm struggling to categorize how I'm feeling right now. It's some combination of reeling, shellshocked, flabbergasted, and gobsmacked.
posted by diogenes at 8:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Papadopoulos is from the Carson campaign? I need to give the writers more credit for paying off seemingly dead-end story arcs.
posted by gladly at 8:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [88 favorites]

Jeff Sessions was the head of foreign policy for the campaign, and testified under oath last week he knew nothing of Russian contacts.

There's just gotta be at least one email from Poppa Dop/Gates/Manafort to Sessions about this stuff. Please let there be an email.
posted by schoolgirl report at 8:43 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Nixed a couple of searchable PDF links; the thought is good but the site hosting them might have some malware issues at the moment it looks like, so that'll need a different host if you want to share 'em.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

This gritty reboot of "Gilligan's Island" sounds absolutely hysterical.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

WHY WOULD YOU TAKE AND THEN KEEP NOTES? ON A CRIMINAL FUCKING CONSPIRACY

So lets pretend that we're low-level slime balls in the putative Trump organization. We're happy to belly up to the trough and do the dirty as required, because, hey money heels all wounds. We're happy to keep pushing for our guys and profess loyalties to any wacky ideas, because, hey Vegas only cares about how rich you are.

But if the cards fall, you need a back-up plan that doesn't involve long-term hard time. If you're elbow deep in the blood and the scum and the shit, that doesn't wash off so easily---you're going to be caught red-handed. You're the ones doing the stuff that the police and the lawyers can see.

So you keep records, logs and traceable tokens. You make yourself valuable to the prosecutors. Your plan B is always to roll over and take the plea deal, do a couple of years of soft time at club fed, then get out to a country with no tax laws where your offshore accounts haven't been accessible to the prosecutors. It's not a perfect retirement plan, you may not be able to travel with your record, but sitting on a beach in the Turks and Caicos isn't the worst way to end your days. And hey, there's always a chance at a pardon if your guys get back in in a few years.
posted by bonehead at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

Papadopoulos's guilty plea mentions emails about this affair to the "Senior Policy Advisor"--is that Sessions?
posted by Room 101 at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Also, if I understand correctly, Trump pardoning Manafort would be absolutely insane, because it would remove any ability for Manafort to plead the Fifth against Kushner or Don Jr. if they're also indicted.

A Manafort pardon would also be a tacit admission that Manafort was a foreign agent, and that Donny was OK with him running his campaign. Donny either knew and didn't care, or he didn't know, which isn't a great look, either. Complicit or ignorant, those are his options.

Claiming ignorance may be Donny's only way to go. Pardoning Manafort works directly against that. It is to extend a huge favour to some guy you claim to hardly know or need anything in return from.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Curiously absent from Trump's responses: any expression of surprise or anger that people he trusted were actually criminals; any expression of relief or gratitude that the FBI brought down people who committed crimes against the country of which he is president.
posted by one for the books at 8:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [167 favorites]

[Nixed a couple of searchable PDF links; the thought is good but the site hosting them might have some malware issues at the moment it looks like, so that'll need a different host if you want to share 'em.]

FWIW, Aaron Blake at WaPo posted a version of the Manafort indictment converted into searchable/copyable text complete with annotations.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

the professor

I think they should initialise The Professor to make him sound more sinister and evil-masterminded.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 8:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

The Russians must have been pretty amazed to find out what morons they were reaching out to.

Or, y'know, counting on it.

I dunno, good question. Again, Putin is evil, but not magic. I think he just wanted his damn sanctions lifted and thought that the Republican candidate, especially one so good at being sleazy, would be the one to support. Hey, T, we see that no one will lend you money in the US anymore (since you keep refusing to pay them back). We'll lend you some money, if you agree to this thing. Since Putin is not too up on the problems of red America, he perhaps didn't see why T was elected and is probably regretting at least some of what is happening.

Claiming ignorance may be Donny's only way to go

It's not a claim, it's the truth.
posted by Melismata at 8:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

If there's anything Trump's people should be shitting themselves over, it's the fact that Mueller's team was able to not leak this to any of them or the media for three months. That's astonishing to me.

In fairness, the CI team are practised at avoiding letting other intelligence agencies know their assets are compromised...and, you know, the FBI has had that skill with the Mafia.
posted by jaduncan at 8:49 AM on October 30, 2017

At it's core here, we have the Trump campaign notified that Russia had "thousands of emails" belonging to Clinton in April 2016, and they took no steps to notify the FBI, DNC, stop talking to the Russians, or otherwise behave in a remotely responsible fashion.
posted by zachlipton at 8:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [140 favorites]

A Manafort would also be a tacit admission that Manafort was a foreign agent, and that Donny was OK with him running his campaign. Donny either knew and didn't care, or he didn't know, which isn't a great look, either.

I don't think Donald cares about these details. He doesn't care about looking corrupt or foolish. He already looks corrupt and foolish. He deals with this fact by tweeting lies, and he will continue to do so.

Donald cares about these things:
a) Not being the subject of accusations sufficiently detailed and monstrous to cause part of his base to abandon him. (And at this stage, who knows what would be effective with those people?)
b) Not being the subject of criminal charges which could be used as a justification for impeachment by a Congress that secretly despises him.
c) Not having his family's business taken away from them.
d) Not having himself or his family go to jail.
e) Piss tape
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

I'm physically exhausted. Mom is downstairs canning tomatoes and making jam. I read a little then run downstairs to tell her. Come back, there's more and run downstairs again, "And get this...'
posted by Jalliah at 8:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

2017: The E-Mails Strike Back
posted by Huffy Puffy at 8:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

D is the goal but C would be secretly delicious. Fuck these criminal oligarch motherfuckers.
posted by Artw at 8:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

digby: Will he flip?

[O]ne detail in [Friday's] CNN story is worth taking a closer look at: "top lawyers who are helping to lead the Mueller probe, including veteran prosecutor Andrew Weissmann, were seen entering the court room at the DC federal court where the grand jury meets." If Andrew Weissman was there is indicates that they are playing hardball regardless of who they have decided to indict.

As Betsy Woodruff of the Daily Beast reported last August, Weissman is a very, very hard charging prosecutor known for his "take-no-prisoners" approach to white collar crime. He was among those who prosecuted Enron and personally handled the Arthur Anderson case which resulted in the dissolution of the company. He indicted the whole enterprise for obstructing justice by destroying documents and won a conviction which was later overturned by the Supreme Court. Weissman argued later that the ruling would not hobble prosecutors from making similar obstruction charges because the congress has subsequently passed the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, although there are some who believe that the case resulted in prosecutors pulling their punches in the wake of the financial crisis a few years later.

But Weissman also has another specialty. He has a particular talent for "flipping" witnesses, which he honed in the Brooklyn US Attorney's office prosecuting organized crime with colleague George Stamboulidis. According to Reuters:
In 1997, he and trial partner George Stamboulidis brought down one of the country’s most powerful mob bosses, Vincent “the Chin” Gigante, with the help of turncoat witnesses.

“We cut our teeth in the organized crime section,” said Stamboulidis, now in private practice. “And the only way you can make those cases is to get people to cooperate, even when the oath of Omerta (a Mafia code of silence and non-cooperation with authorities) was strong and in full play.”
How that talent might be used in this Russia probe is anyone's guess, but we know already that a number of the players are implicated in money laundering and various financial crimes that may or may not be linked to Russia.

posted by zombieflanders at 8:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

Here's a picture of Papadopolous at the table with Trump and Sessions, dated March 31, 2016, from Trump's instagram (this is the meeting described in #9 of the statement of the offense). That's after he had already met with "the Professor" and the "female Russian national" he thought was Putin's niece.
posted by zachlipton at 8:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [59 favorites]

I'm struggling to categorize how I'm feeling right now. It's some combination of reeling, shellshocked, flabbergasted, and gobsmacked.

Reelshockergastsmacked?
posted by Paul Slade at 8:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: It does appear to me that Papadopoulos's guilty plea statement shows that the Trump campaign knew about the DNC email hack around April 26th 2016

So Papadopoulos knows about the hack on April 26th, and on April 27th Trump gives a foreign policy speech at the Mayflower Hotel that Russian ambassador Sergey Kislyak attends? Huh.
posted by bluecore at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2017 [47 favorites]

I'm physically exhausted. Mom is downstairs canning tomatoes and making jam. I read a little then run downstairs to tell her. Come back, there's more and run downstairs again, "And get this...'

This is so sweet. No snark, it put a giant smile on my face.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2017 [49 favorites]

my cat is so excited about the indictments she is trying to climb into the slow cooker
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [87 favorites]

I think you're projecting. I mean who doesn't want to climb into a slow cooker
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [49 favorites]

from Trump's instagram (this is the meeting described in #9 of the statement of the offense)

Are you Instagramming a criminal fucking conspiracy?!
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [123 favorites]

Hansel and Gretel
posted by crocomancer at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I thought we were already IN the slow cooker.
posted by Emmy Rae at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

Is it okay to discuss the Voting Fraud Commission or is that considered a derail?
posted by Bella Donna at 8:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

This Monday, we all are UnGarfields
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:00 AM on October 30, 2017

Are you Instagramming a criminal fucking conspiracy?!

It's funny because it's true.
posted by diogenes at 9:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

Is it okay to discuss the Voting Fraud Commission or is that considered a derail?

I am not a mod (IANAM), but it's the US politics thread, so I think it's all good. More ingredients make the slow cooker better.
posted by nubs at 9:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Sorry for using some random shitty file sharing website, I should have known better. Here are nice and safe Google Drive links for the searchable PDFs:

George Papadopoulos guilty plea statement searchable PDF
Paul Manafort and Rick Gates indictment searchable PDF
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

I'm struggling to categorize how I'm feeling right now. It's some combination of reeling, shellshocked, flabbergasted, and gobsmacked.
Shell-reeling-flabber-gob-shocked, probably.
posted by rongorongo at 9:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

my cat is so excited about the indictments she is trying to climb into the slow cooker

You should never have brought home that gingerbread litterbox
posted by thelonius at 9:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Nancy Pelosi's statement: “Even with an accelerating Special Counsel investigation inside the Justice Department, and investigations inside the Republican Congress, we still need an outside, fully independent investigation to expose Russia’s meddling in our election and the involvement of Trump officials. Defending the integrity of our democracy demands that Congress look forward to counter Russian aggression and prevent future meddling with our elections.”
posted by Bella Donna at 9:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [55 favorites]

Daniel Dale's tweet Papadopoulos is described as "proactive cooperator." Former prosecutor tells me that sometimes means "wore a wire." links to a longer tweet thread by Brad Heath, Which raises the question of who Papadopolous talked to *after* he was arrested. Those people likely are not having a nice morning.
posted by gladly at 9:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [130 favorites]

So Trump is having lunch w Sessions and Pence - I hope they are having Tarragon Macaroni and Cheese so that we can call this the Tar-Mac luncheon.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:05 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

"I thought we were already IN the slow cooker."

It's slow cookers all the way down.
posted by komara at 9:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Nice try, Blanco Niño, but too bad your ass got saaaaaaaaacked

Now all I can picture is a random Trump staffer running around the White House screaming "PORK CHOP SANDWICHES!".
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 9:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

Hey, I’ve been teaching all morning, did I miss anyth—

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
posted by Barack Spinoza at 9:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [75 favorites]

TRUMP: "So... this Russia thing."
SESSIONS: "Now uh Mr President, I have to point out at this juncture that I have recused myself from..."
TRUMP: "Let's say you haven't. This Russia thing..."
[PENCE NERVOUSLY PLAYS WITH HIS PHONE]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

ProPublica from October 17: The arrest, on child pornography charges, of a researcher for the controversial Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity is intensifying conflict inside the group, with two Democratic members asserting again that a small band of conservatives holds disproportionate power. The researcher, Ronald Williams II, who was arrested late last week, previously worked as an intern at the Department of Justice on a case with J. Christian Adams, who is now a Republican member of the commission. ...

Update: On Oct. 18, Democratic senators sent two letters requesting information from the Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity. One, from Sen. Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, cited ProPublica’s reporting — that members of the commission were unaware of the names of staff assigned to work for the commission — and expressed “alarm.”

... When the letters were sent on Wednesday to the commission’s public email address, an automatic response email stated that the account no longer accepts public comments. Instead, commenters were directed to an “eRulmaking [sic] portal” or to submit written comments to “Mr. Ron Williams, Policy Advisor, Presidential Advisory Commission on Election Integrity” — the individual arrested on child pornography charges last week. The commission did not return a request for comment.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:09 AM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

***For anyone feeling stressed out about #Politics #Potus45, feel free to take a mental health break and swing on over to the Cheeseburger Emoji thread. It's filled with humorous light commentary and pedantry. And there is a correct way to stack a cheeseburger/emoji.***
posted by Fizz at 9:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

I mean, it's incompetence all the way down. Always has been. FFS.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

PORK CHOP SANDWICHES

Also:

"STOP ALL THE ~~DOWNLOADIN'~~ COLLUDIN'!"
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 9:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

I thought we were already IN the slow cooker.

Speak for yourself, I'm in a delightful sous vide.
posted by Strange Interlude at 9:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Now all I can picture is a random Trump staffer running around the White House screaming "PORK CHOP SANDWICHES!".

OH SHIT, GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE! WHAT ARE YOU DOING? GO, GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE YOU STUPID IDIOT! FUCK, WE'RE ALL DEAD, GET THE FUCK OUT
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

I guess Pelosi had to remind us that the Democrats still vaguely exist.
posted by Artw at 9:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Matthew Miller generally is one of the sharpest and most accurate voices on all this. Two takes from him this morning:

Significantly, the plea agreement doesn’t outline who Papadopolous shared that offer with & how they reacted. But Mueller clearly knows.

and better yet:

Mueller’s choreographed one-two punch today sends a signal to every Trump official: cooperate & get a good deal or resist & get hammered. (emphasis mine)
posted by martin q blank at 9:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [59 favorites]

A few comments removed. Y'all I know the guy is a complicit fucko and all but maybe let's skip the round of "hey let's make fun of Sessions' size and voice" stuff.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [30 favorites]

I'm a bit agog at the magnificence of $934,350 paid to Vendor C, an antique rug store in Alexandria, Virginia.

That explains where Trump's hair came from.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [59 favorites]

Since Putin is not too up on the problems of red America, he perhaps didn't see why T was elected and is probably regretting at least some of what is happening.

He probably didn't want as bright a light on his own activities and agents as he's getting now, sure, but fucking with America's election was a win-win for him. Either way it fucks up our ability to do anything useful and weakens our international prestige. He might have been surprised by the extent of his success, but this is all still gravy for him. A domestically embattled Clinton would not have alienated the international community nearly as much as Trump has. That's worth burning a few of his agents for.

Apropos Papadopolous, I have a feeling there's a message for Manafort and Gates here: flip quick, or we'll get the whole story without your help and just leave you to the tender mercies of the justice system.
posted by jackbishop at 9:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

It would have been very different if, eg, there were a bunch of emails of Arpaio saying "yes, pay me one million dollars and I will sign your prison contract, I love bribes!" or another very clear, incontrovertible illegal thing and Trump had pardoned him.

Actually, there *was* "another very clear, incontrovertible illegal thing".
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Tom Tomorrow (Dan Perkins, who draws the This Modern World comic) probably just pieced together the April 18 Moscow meeting:

In the Papadopoulos plea deal, the unnamed “PROFESSOR” says he is “flying to Moscow on (April 18, 2016) for a Valdai meeting.”
This is the event that took place at the Moscow-based Valdai DIscussion Club on April 19, 2016.
Not to play Internet Detective, but enterprising journalists will note that there is an academic from the UK speaking at this meeting.

posted by zachlipton at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

I mean who doesn't want to climb into a slow cooker

Personally, I am really, really ready to climb OUT of this slow cooker.
posted by widdershins at 9:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Metafilter: some combination of reeling, shellshocked, flabbergasted, and gobsmacked
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Something that has been gnawing at me for a while is, why is the "right" able to create the right-wing media machine that so distorts reality, and the "left" seemingly unable to either counter it or create a counter-machine?

I think mostly it is because the Democrats have, foolishly, decided that since they have truth on their side they don't need a noise machine. I hope that the recent success of the right wing noise machine will shake them from their complacency.

We've got plenty of billionaires on the left, the space is open for a left wing version of FOX News (only, and this is the best part, all it would need to do is tell the truth instead of lying), but none of our left wing billionaires seem interested in establishing such a thing.

It isn't that we've tried it and failed, we just haven't tried it.

Hell, we've got enough billionaires they could simply fund a completely self sustaining left wing news organization, one that hires actual journalists and actual investigative reporters, and never has to sell a single ad or try to make a profit because it's got an endowment so big it can exist on the profits of that endowment forever and ever. But they haven't done that and I'm very frustrated that they haven't.
posted by sotonohito at 9:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

(Or you can just read the Washington Post in August, which also says "the professor" is Ivan Timofeev, who was at the Moscow event)

And because this is the stupidest timeline, Timofeev liked Papadopoulos's profile pic on Facebook
posted by zachlipton at 9:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [64 favorites]

Aaah...there's the kaboom.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

These, THESE are the people who should have their voting rights removed for life. Not rank-and-file felons like now, who should get their rights back after time served, but traitors like these? I'd be happy to have them disenfranchised right into the next lifetime.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 9:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

Looking in from the outside (we have our own thing going on with Brexit...)
My knowledge of the US legal system is not extensive, but I have to admire the Special Counsel and his team for the sheer, cool professionalism. Good to see a job done with great skill.
posted by TwelveNoteRow at 9:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Are notes stating you are not medically fit enough for testifying or depositions covered by the ACA? Asking for my enemies.
posted by srboisvert at 9:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Via TPM, what Lewandowski has been telling Fox:
Lewandowski added Monday, referring to Manafort: “He was under a FISA warrant, supposedly, both before and after his tenure at the campaign, and the FBI never notified the leading presidential candidate for a major Republican party race? Never notified him of a potential problem? This is a problem with the FBI if you ask me.” Um, yeah, totally an FBI problem, ubetcha.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: WSJ—FBI Is Probing Puerto Rico Power Contract

The Federal Bureau of Investigation is investigating a $300 million construction contract Puerto Rico’s government power company awarded to a tiny Montana-based energy firm, according to people familiar with the matter.

FBI agents from the San Juan field office are looking into circumstances surrounding the disaster-recovery deal the public-power monopoly known as Prepa signed with Whitefish Energy Holdings LLC, according to three people familiar with the matter.

FEMA, Congress, and "local auditors" are also investigating.
posted by zachlipton at 9:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [64 favorites]

We've got plenty of billionaires on the left,

I think what you really mean is Democratic Party supporting billionaires.
posted by srboisvert at 9:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

Stolen from Twitter: #MAGA = Many Are Getting Arrested
posted by Talez at 9:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [99 favorites]

I think mostly it is because the Democrats have, foolishly, decided that since they have truth on their side they don't need a noise machine. I hope that the recent success of the right wing noise machine will shake them from their complacency.

Indeed - when you have the facts, pound the facts. When you have the law, pound the law. And when you have neither, pound the table.

But FFS, pound on something! Help us Democrat Pelosi, you're our only hope!
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

I think mostly it is because the Democrats have, foolishly, decided that since they have truth on their side they don't need a noise machine. I hope that the recent success of the right wing noise machine will shake them from their complacency.

Just to note here, Jeff Bezos did buy the Washington Post a few years ago. I think it has since stepped up the quality of its political reporting. I think too, by being unimpeachably truthful, or at least aspiring to that goal, it's done a lot in recent years in getting the NYT to pull up their socks as well. At least, I don't see a lot of Judith Millers over there anymore.

The problem with good boring truthful journalism is that it isn't quick and often isn't as splashy as other outlets who make up headlines at a whim. It does tend to get crowded out of the news cycle by the hysteria machines. But the good part is that it gets read by prosecutors.
posted by bonehead at 9:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

May 21. Papadopoulos emails another high-ranking campaign official — Manafort, according to The Post’s August report — informing him that “Russia has been eager to meet Mr. Trump for quite sometime and have been reaching out to me to discuss.”

Manafort forwards the email to Rick Gates (who was also indicted on Monday). “We need someone to communicate that [Trump] is not doing these trips,” he writes. “It should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal.”

We need someone low level. Preferably someone kinda dumb that we won't mind throwing under the bus. Get me Carter Page on the phone!
posted by diogenes at 9:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

I think mostly it is because the Democrats have, foolishly, decided that since they have truth on their side they don't need a noise machine.

It's probably that and many liberals also getting suckered by the right-wing's decades-long "liberal media" branding effort. Democrats probably actually believe that, say, NPR is liberal, even as it has another Republican on to spew conservative talking points. For every one that the interviewer challenges, they let three more go unrebutted.
posted by Gelatin at 9:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

Actually, there *was* "another very clear, incontrovertible illegal thing".

But the point is, that's not what he was pardoned for. He was pardoned for contempt of court. My sense of the Trump base is that they don't think that contempt of court is a very big deal. Pardoning someone for contempt of court is a different thing from pardoning them for money laundering when there's tons of documentation or pardoning them for lying to the FBI when they have confessed.
posted by Frowner at 9:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Good point by bluecore here. I think we can now say the following with confidence: George Papadopoulos, one of five Foreign Policy Advisors for the Trump campaign, learned from Russian government operatives about the DNC email hack in April 2016, before it was public knowledge. Papadopoulos has admitted lying to FBI agents about this in an attempt to cover up the facts and minimize the connection between Russian officials and the Trump campaign.

During this same period before the hack became public knowledge, Senator Sessions had a "VIP" meeting with Russian Ambassador Kislyak at the Mayflower Hotel. Other "campaign staff and diplomats" were present. Sessions later denied such a meeting occurred, under oath, before admitting that it may have occurred.

We don't yet know if Sessions was made aware of the DNC hack, whether by Papadopoulos or by another staffer, nor whether it was discussed with Kislyak at the Mayflower Hotel.

Perhaps Mueller will be able to get to the bottom of this mystery!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [61 favorites]

Via TPM, what Lewandowski has been telling Fox:

Lewandowski is all up in the middle of this. The Post's August story on Papadopoulos identifies Lewandowski as the recipient of Papadopoulos's repeated emails trying to setup meetings between Russian officials and the campaign.
posted by zachlipton at 9:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

My sense of the Trump base is that they don't think that contempt of court is a very big deal. Pardoning someone for contempt of court is a different thing from pardoning them for money laundering when there's tons of documentation or pardoning them for lying to the FBI when they have confessed.

You overestimate them, I think, if you're talking about the "base". Might shake the faction of Republican supporters still interested in seeing the rule of law continue, but their existence and influence is questionable.
posted by Artw at 9:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

this Trump lunch with Sessions (Papadopulous's boss at relevant times) makes me crazy
CRAZY
is it OK because they're not on a tarmac?
(i know)
(IOIYAR)
posted by prefpara at 9:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

So SHS will be denying that Trump ever met Manafort today, right?
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Papadopoulos emails a senior campaign staffer to indicate that he’s gotten some “interesting messages.” He also emails a “high-ranking campaign official” to reiterate that Putin would like to host Trump. The Post’s August report indicates that the high-ranking official who was told about Putin wanting to meet was Lewandowski.

And Fox is asking Lewandowski for his opinion on current events...
posted by diogenes at 9:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Claiming ignorance may be Donny's only way to go

I'm thinking Trump is going to cop to senility and use this to go out as a bullied and manipulated victim. This will also require that his underlings get buried.
posted by srboisvert at 9:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

It's probably that and many liberals also getting suckered by the right-wing's decades-long "liberal media" branding effort. Democrats probably actually believe that, say, NPR is liberal, even as it has another Republican on to spew conservative talking points.

A while ago, someone here pointed out how much they would appreciate NPR just sticking to the facts - just that alone would make a lot of liberals love it. But why do facts and investigation when you could do horserace coverage and punctuate it with interviews of Donald Trump's Nazi of the day? I listen for the local coverage now. The national coverage provokes rage and shouting.

The number of times they go with the framing "critics of Republicans' X plan" when they could say "actual experts in X vehemently disagree with Republicans' claims" and get a lot more info out there.
posted by Emmy Rae at 9:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

So there's still a mystery emailee left...

April 27. Papadopoulos emails a senior campaign staffer to indicate that he’s gotten some “interesting messages.”

And we know it's not Lewandowski, Manafort, or Gates.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

This will also require that his underlings get buried.

Well how else will they serve him in the afterworld?
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [38 favorites]

I'm thinking Trump is going to cop to senility

Ah, the Reagan defense.
posted by radwolf76 at 9:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

"It's Manafort! Former member of Podesta Group INDICTED" - Literally the top post of t_d right now.

They're not just delusional. They're complete fucking bonkers.
posted by Talez at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Mueller brought to this case a sterling reputation as a nonpartisan truth-teller, and his appointment by the Deputy Attorney General, Rod Rosenstein, was met with near-universal acclaim. On the other side is Manafort, who spent much of the past decade working for pro-Putin eastern European oligarchs. We don’t know what direction the Manafort investigation will go from here, but we have a sense of the contrast it will offer. On one side is Mueller, who has spent his working life serving the American government. On the other side is the one-time chairman of the President’s election campaign, who is now charged with conspiracy against the United States. The legal questions are about collusion and obstruction of justice. The story is about patriotism. The Wall Street Journal and the White House press secretary are asking their loyalists to think of Mueller as a tool of Democratic interests and institutional biases. The conservative bet is that the fissures of the 2016 campaign represent the new tectonics of political life. But the news this morning seems to promise that 2016 is over and a new era, belatedly, has begun. By Benjamin Wallace-Wells at The New Yorker. Hope he's right. There are other takes as well.
posted by Bella Donna at 9:43 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Meanwhile, Russian bot–tracker Hamilton 68 has noted that both #mullermonday and #dosomething have been trending hashtags in the past 48 hours.
posted by Doktor Zed at 9:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

omg is SHS on camera today?

Apparently so! And there's still plenty of time to pop some Rederbacher.
posted by theodolite at 9:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Might shake the faction of Republican supporters still interested in seeing the rule of law continue, but their existence and influence is questionable.

I think it's more that they have been successfully sold on the threat coming from elsewhere.

The NRA are certainly not really calming things down.

Transcript, if you don't want to give views to the crazypants:

"They use their media to assassinate real news. They use their schools to teach children that their president is another Hitler. They use their movie stars and singers and comedy shows and award shows to repeat their narrative over and over again. And then they use their ex-president to endorse “the resistance.”

All to make them march. Make them protest. Make them scream racism and sexism and xenophobia and homophobia. To smash windows, burn cars, shut down interstates and airports, bully and terrorize the law-abiding — until the only option left is for the police to do their jobs and stop the madness.

And when that happens, they’ll use it as an excuse for their outrage. The only way we stop this, the only way we save our country and our freedom, is to fight this violence of lies with the clenched fist of truth.

I’m the National Rifle Association of America. And I’m freedom’s safest place."

Unbelievably, it is more propaganda-like in the video than in the transcript; the voiceover is on top of pictures of protesters.

So, you know, if you ever wondered how a bad TV movie would portray the move towards authoritarianism...
posted by jaduncan at 9:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [116 favorites]

"It's Manafort! Former member of Podesta Group INDICTED" - Literally the top post of t_d right now.

Clearly Manafort was working for Hillary Clinton all along. Fortunately the God Emperor was able to trick him into running his political campaign effectively enough to defeat her! You can't stump the Trump! #MAGA
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

"It's Manafort! Former member of Podesta Group INDICTED" - Literally the top post of t_d right now.

They're not just delusional. They're complete fucking bonkers.

Maybe it sounded better in Russian.
posted by jaduncan at 9:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

/r/the_donald top post, January 2019: VICTORY! FORMER CLINTON DONOR IMPEACHED AND REMOVED FROM PRESIDENCY
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [74 favorites]

Apparently so! And there's still plenty of time to pop some Rederbacher.

I can see it now...

Acosta: Sarah, what do you have to say about the arrests earlier this morning?
SHS: We think it's a non-issue for the President. The President and Mr Manafort were never formally introduced.
Acosta: But he was the President's campaign manager? Are you telling me they never actually met?
SHS: We stand by the notion that they were never formally introduced.
Acosta: How can you even begin to think we'll buy that?
SHS: Neither of them were wearing tuxedos so therefore they couldn't possibly have been formally introduced to each other.
posted by Talez at 9:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

r/the_donald top post, January 2019: VICTORY! FORMER CLINTON DONOR IMPEACHED AND REMOVED FROM PRESIDENCY

I'm gonna need a [fake] tag on that there buddy
posted by Existential Dread at 9:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

The story is about patriotism.

It should be, but I don't think it will be. I think there's a kind of circular reasoning where white people in middle America think that they're the most patriotic Americans, and therefore anything that they do is patriotic. If they literally sell our country to the Russians, then selling our country to the Russians is patriotic. I think it's going to be really hard to sell a narrative about the Trump administration being unpatriotic, even to people around here who didn't vote for him. Because their friends and relatives voted for him, and their friends and relatives are good Americans, unlike those unpatriotic people in big cities and on the coasts.

But maybe I'm just feeling especially bitter today.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

You need [fake] tags for the future ?
posted by Pendragon at 9:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

We don't need fake tags for fake future tweets, surely
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I OVERSLEPT

DID I MISS THE TELEVISED EXECUTIONS
posted by poffin boffin at 9:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [60 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.
posted by newdaddy at 9:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

So is Papadopoulos just too dumb to hold out for a pardon? too small-time to warrant one?

Im not saying I think the president is above pre-emptive pardons, im just curious how the current set of circumstances came to be if that was really the game plan.

The dude's been singing for months, no pardon of Papaflipolous would be pre-emptive.
posted by rhizome at 9:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

You need [fake] tags for the future ?

If someone has a time machine and hasn't used it go back and fix this shit, I'm gonna be really pissed.
posted by chris24 at 9:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

I could do with less fake in general, frankly. Reality is interesting (and unbelievable) enough.
posted by Roommate at 9:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

and there's still plenty of time to pop some Rederbacher.

I'll wait to celebrate until a Rohrabacher is popped.
posted by Rust Moranis at 9:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

The number of times [NPR goes] with the framing "critics of Republicans' X plan" when they could say "actual experts in X vehemently disagree with Republicans' claims" and get a lot more info out there.

That's part of the problem -- they mean actual experts who cite real facts, but they persist in this phony, "balanced," he-said-she-said framing, which suggests that it's just a matter of opinion, and one is as valid as the other, and what are objective facts anyway? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Which is a complete and abject repudiation of their mandate as journalists, taken on, I am sure -- out of fear: of losing funding, of mean tweets from neo-Nazis, of being called "liberal" by people who are not remotely arguing in good faith. And so they support those who don't argue in good faith by treating their codswallop with the same respect as actual facts. Feh.
posted by Gelatin at 9:54 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

So is Papadopoulos just too dumb to hold out for a pardon? too small-time to warrant one?

Maybe it comes down to a simple of question of who is more likely to follow through after promising clemency or protection: the former head of the FBI, or the former figurehead of Trump University?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:54 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

zombieflanders: This damn thing could go everywhere.

Could? How optimistic of you. According to Trump's mirror, when he "drained the swamp," he actually rolled up with a dumptruck or five full of toxic sludge and dumped it in the White House, where it then seeped out from there.

Talez: Stolen from Twitter: #MAGA = Many Are Getting Arrested

Let's workshop this a bit. How about #MAGA = May All Get Arrested?
posted by filthy light thief at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

Holy crap. He's going to be completely unhinged, isn't he?

I so wish I could log into chat from this computer...
posted by suelac at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

AP: "BREAKING: US court bars Trump from changing military policy on service by transgender people."

(That's it right now, story to come.)

Are you tired of winning yet?
posted by zachlipton at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [113 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

This seems like a bad idea.
posted by notyou at 9:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

I'll wait to celebrate until a Rohrabacher is popped.

Seriously? I've got the traditional arrestivus tree (a cheap Chinese made scale model of Trump Tower) and the arrestivus dinner (well done steak and ketchup) all ready to go.
posted by Talez at 9:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I would just like to re-request that during this time of buckwild newsmaking could we all please remember to diligently label news reports (even with links!) with a [REAL] and [FAKE] tag?
posted by Tevin at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

It was weird when they tried explaining why the president had to so urgently tell the people his thoughts on hamburger emoji and Halloween candies [fake]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Is the SHS conference still running? In addition to what is sure to be a level-headed response from trump?
posted by codacorolla at 9:58 AM on October 30, 2017

Are you tired of winning yet?

I know this is a sarcastic reference to what is happening for Trump and his agenda, but to answer it seriously from my side of the table:

No. Moar winning, plz.
posted by nubs at 9:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

"BREAKING: US court bars Trump from changing military policy on service by transgender people."

I wonder if this will stand, because he is after all Commander-in-Chief. But clearly there's no appetite in the Pentagon for the President's bigoted and counter-productive policy. Maybe they'll drop the policy and start a new "commission" or "study group" instead.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

DID I MISS THE TELEVISED EXECUTIONS

No, you still have time - President Clinton has a last minute appeal to the Supreme Court.

*cough* [fake]
posted by allegedly at 9:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

We're all tuning into the briefing by SHS that is scheduled to start in two minutes, right?
posted by lazaruslong at 9:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Holy crap. He's going to be completely unhinged, isn't he?

I so wish I could log into chat from this computer...

In case some folks don't know, here's a link to Metafilter chat.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Is the SHS conference still running? In addition to what is sure to be a level-headed response from trump?

Pushed back to 1:15 last I heard, though who knows if/when she'll actually show up.
posted by zachlipton at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Hey ArbitraryAndCapricious, maybe we can make it a story about patriotism. Feinberg and Willer drew upon past research showing that American liberals and conservatives tend to endorse different moral values to different extents. For example, liberals tend to be more concerned with care and equality where conservatives are more concerned with values like group loyalty, respect for authority and purity. They then conducted four studies testing the idea that moral arguments reframed to fit a target audience’s moral values could be persuasive on even deeply entrenched political issues. In one study, conservative participants recruited via the Internet were presented with passages that supported legalizing same-sex marriage.

Conservative participants were ultimately persuaded by a patriotism-based argument that “same-sex couples are proud and patriotic Americans … [who] contribute to the American economy and society.” On the other hand, they were significantly less persuaded by a passage that argued for legalized same-sex marriage in terms of fairness and equality.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

kelly cohen‏ @politiCOHEN_ 🚨 papadopoulos's attorneys have released a statement

"It is in the best interest of our client, George Papadopolous, that we refrain from commenting on George's case.

"We will have the opportunity to comment on George's involvement when called upon by the Court at a later date. We look forward to telling all of the details of George's story at that time."

SEE YOU IN COURT, MELON FARMERS! TESTIFY, BROTHER PAPADOO!
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

XQUZYPHYR: If there's anything Trump's people should be shitting themselves over, it's the fact that Mueller's team was able to not leak this to any of them or the media for three months. That's astonishing to me.

There are at least 4 major reasons for leaks, particularly related to this administration, as discussed by Jonah Goldberg, senior editor at the National Review, waaay back in Feb. 2017 on NPR:

vengeful leaking against rivals, to compete for power in part is by leaking things to the media
leak and embarrass the administration
purposeful, high-level leaks which carry a message (not completely relevant here: Trump's team gets information or arguments into the president's head is by going through the media)
these things are done intentionally because they want a certain storyline to get out (and in doing so, selecting how to spin the story, with what information to include, exclude, or even make up)

posted by filthy light thief at 10:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Not a good day to be a different PAPADOPOULOS on Twitter.

George Papadopoulos is the Greek equivalent of Joe Smith in terms of frequency. I mean the writers could at least try a bit.
posted by Dr Dracator at 10:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Republican congressman from Indiana.

@RepJimBanks
1/ Months ago I & many other Republicans vowed to support Mueller investigation & allow it to work its way through process to get the facts
2/ In light of today’s indictments we must continue to support and allow the integrity of the process to work
posted by chris24 at 10:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [77 favorites]

"The president's also made very clear...that he considers this a hoax," Conway said. "And that people should be looking into any coordination, if not collusion, between the Clinton campaign, the DNC, the Russian dossier."

Riiiiiiiiiight.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

*wakes up suddenly, wild eyed and screaming*

Ok, it's Monday, What'd I miss?

Holy shit, it's the miracle of Muellermas!
posted by loquacious at 10:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Wow am I glad I'm not Sean Spicer. That guy must be living on tenterhooks, worried about the foreboding knock on the door and people dressed in black suits asking him to come with them.

BRB, there's a knock at the door. Now where did I leave my passport?
posted by Definitely Not Sean Spicer at 10:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

I have no idea what good deeds I did to cosmically deserve such an entertaining day.
posted by marshmallow peep at 10:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

I'd take a small bet on Trump just having a total meltdown and inadvertently incriminating himself.

I'll take 'promises to release Area 51 classified files if everyone re-focuses on Clinton today.'
posted by notorious medium at 10:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

In honor of my Jewish never-my-family-members Ivanka and Jared, I move to alternatively call today Muellerkah.
posted by anya32 at 10:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Well, now I’m not sure that what I thought I read in that Fox News chyron as I dashed by was correct. I can’t find any other collaborating discussion of a Presidential press conference. Could I have misinterpreted the press secretary briefing? If so, I apologize.
posted by newdaddy at 10:06 AM on October 30, 2017

@Nate_Cohn: Trump approval falls to 33% in Gallup tracking. It's his all-time low.

Wanna take bets that this is the thing that pisses him off more than anything else today?
posted by zombieflanders at 10:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [54 favorites]

Gallup approval ratings for Trump took a big jump this morning - 33% approve, 62% disapprove
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

So SHS will be denying that Trump ever met Manafort today, right?

SHS: Firstly, the President never met Manafort. Secondly, when he did meet him Manafort was already a criminal. Finally, when the President returned him Manafort was a perfectly law-abiding individual.

...LOOK OVER THERE! URANIUM COVERED IN HOT SAUCE!
posted by delfin at 10:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Buck up, newdaddy! Trump is scheduled to celebrate Muellerween live on TV this afternoon.

TUNE IN TODAY

1:00 PM EDT
Press Briefing with Press Secretary Sarah Sanders

5:45 PM EDT
President Trump and the First Lady Participate in Halloween at the White House
posted by elsietheeel at 10:08 AM on October 30, 2017

FiveThirtyEight’s site is down.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Well, although not a Presidential Press Conference in name, in form tonight's White House Halloween Event with Donald and Melania is another excellent opportunity for a spooky meltdown.
posted by anya32 at 10:09 AM on October 30, 2017

So, this is a lot of stressors for old Donnie, huh? Manafort going down, Papadopoulos rolling over, transgender ban overturned, lowest approval rating ever. I'm sure he'll handle all this stress in a healthy way!
posted by yasaman at 10:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

Politico: Tony Podesta (John's brother) is stepping down from the Podesta Group lobbying firm.
posted by zachlipton at 10:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

To start a risotto-centric restaurant [fake].
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

spooky meltdown.

Daniel Dale - Toronto Star DC reporter and Trump coverer extraordinaire, and former Rob Ford coverer - is flashing back to an unhinged impromptu press conference meltdown by Rob Ford in bloody face Halloween makeup.
posted by chris24 at 10:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

$50 that SHS turns to John Gizzi for a question about Uranium One after getting grilled on something unrelated
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Daniel Dale - Toronto Star DC reporter and Trump coverer extraordinaire, and former Rob Ford coverer - is flashing back to an unhinged impromptu press conference meltdown by Rob Ford in bloody face Halloween makeup.

And IIRC the word "HELP" written in (fake) blood behind him.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Here's your C-SPAN link for SHS's briefing, supposedly starting anytime now, though who knows when she actually shows up.
posted by zachlipton at 10:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'm sure he'll handle all this stress in a healthy way!

Just like any overweight 71 year old with unhealthy eating habits and a lifelong distrust of exercise would, surely.
posted by Glibpaxman at 10:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

I'd take a small bet on Trump just having a total meltdown and inadvertently incriminating himself.

Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour.
posted by srboisvert at 10:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

jaduncan Wow. So the NRA is no longer even pretending to be about "gun rights" and has openly declared that it's just an outlet violent right wing fantasies? I mean, everyone knew it hasn't really been about guns for a long time now, but for them to stop even pretending is amazing.

And scary, because they're also pretty much openly trying to nudge their members (and other well armed far right fanatics) into stochastic terrorism against "the left".
posted by sotonohito at 10:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

Comey tweeted this yesterday. I giggled.

We are in an “inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.”
posted by elsietheeel at 10:15 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

> @Nate_Cohn: Trump approval falls to 33% in Gallup tracking. It's his all-time low.

Wanna take bets that this is the thing that pisses him off more than anything else today?

Don't tell him, but...this morning I overheard two people talking about the World Series, which doesn't have *anything* to do with Trump. They weren't talking about him *at all*!
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:16 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

I'm thinking Trump is going to cop to senility

Ah, the Reagan defense.

Reagan could cop senility because he was psychologically capable of self-deprecation. Whereas Trump's brain is basically a ring of powerful but inflexible defense mechanisms made to define anything bad, false, ugly, or weak as external to himself. I don't think he will ever, ever claim senility or any other kind of frailty, because if the barriers between his pristine self-image and the imperfect universe were to fail for an instant, his mind would gutter and die.
posted by Iridic at 10:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

Wooooow, Hacker News is blocking all mention of the Manafort indictment. What's up with that :p
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

jaduncan Wow. So the NRA is no longer even pretending to be about "gun rights" and has openly declared that it's just an outlet violent right wing fantasies? I mean, everyone knew it hasn't really been about guns for a long time now, but for them to stop even pretending is amazing.

And scary, because they're also pretty much openly trying to nudge their members (and other well armed far right fanatics) into stochastic terrorism against "the left".

Pretty much. The near-impossibility of imagining a world where the NRA runs something along those lines regarding Tea Party people protesting Obama is obvious but striking.
posted by jaduncan at 10:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Manafort has just fallen off my twitter page's 'Trends for you' in favour of #UKSausageWeek. So if like me you think social media has too much data on you, then please join me in a sausage.
posted by biffa at 10:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

I hope someone asks Sarah Huckabee Sanders about Trumpy meeting with Sessions today in re tarmac meeting.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Wow. So the NRA is no longer even pretending to be about "gun rights" and has openly declared that it's just an outlet violent right wing fantasies? I mean, everyone knew it hasn't really been about guns for a long time now, but for them to stop even pretending is amazing.

They represent gun manufacturers and guns sell because of fear.

Sales are way down since Trump took office because there's no boogeyman who's going to take away their guns.

They need another greater boogeyman to scare folks into buying more guns.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

I feel so bad for the writers on Veep
posted by schadenfrau at 8:09 AM on October 30 [15 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

And House of Cards...
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I don't think he will ever, ever claim senility or any other kind of frailty, because if the barriers between his pristine self-image and the imperfect universe were to fail for an instant, his mind would gutter and die.

Like the old joke, "I'm not conceited. Conceit is a fault and I don't have any."
posted by rhizome at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

filthy light thief: There are at least 4 major reasons for leaks

Continuing my thoughts from above: Mueller has a very competent, well-organized and highly professional team who seem to be working with a clear vision towards a common goal (and a real timeline, given that they made at least one deadline for statute of limitations), there's no desire to undermine the efforts, bypass the controls on information flow, or tell another narrative.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

jaduncan Wow. So the NRA is no longer even pretending to be about "gun rights" and has openly declared that it's just an outlet violent right wing fantasies? I mean, everyone knew it hasn't really been about guns for a long time now, but for them to stop even pretending is amazing.

And scary, because they're also pretty much openly trying to nudge their members (and other well armed far right fanatics) into stochastic terrorism against "the left".

Advocacy of illegal violence to kill people is not necessarily constitutionally protected speech.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

Link to press briefing. Sarah hasn't shown up yet but camera is on.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:23 AM on October 30, 2017

Does anybody know Mueller's address? I would like to send him and his team a thank you card, for being Americans who have put country first.
posted by bluesky43 at 10:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Me the other day, predicting Republican reaction to the indictments:

"Indictments? I'm afraid I haven't seen anything about that. Now, our tax reform plan is all about giving Americans back their..."

Paul Ryan today: "Pressed to respond to special counsel indictments, Speaker Ryan says, "I'm not going to speculate on something I haven't read.""

This guy is such a joke.
posted by zachlipton at 10:26 AM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

Advocacy of illegal violence to kill people is not necessarily constitutionally protected speech.

Note that that script carefully says things like "violence of lies with the clenched fist of truth" and is careful not to define the 'they' constantly referred to.
posted by jaduncan at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Paul Ryan today: "Pressed to respond to special counsel indictments, Speaker Ryan says, "I'm not going to speculate on something I haven't read.""

He won't speculate, but he will vote for things he hasn't read.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [52 favorites]

Paul Ryan: "Trump is President? I hadn't heard that. I don't read every gossip rag in D.C., okay? We're going to work whoever's in the White House, maybe that's Trump, maybe it isn't. I don't know."

[fake]
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

So, behind the blue curtains I assume SHS and Kelly are still trying to physically restrain Trump from rushing to the microphone? Trying to distract him with shiny objects?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2017

Don't tell him, but...this morning I overheard two people talking about the World Series, which doesn't have *anything* to do with Trump. They weren't talking about him *at all*!

If Trump’s wall is anything like the walls at Dodger Stadium or Minute Maid Park, I have some bad news about how well it will keep things from going over it...
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

These people. One of the email accounts Paul Manafort used to contact a variety of Russian ne'er-do-wells was compromised in an Adobe breach. His password? Bond007. Really. No, really.
posted by scalefree at 10:28 AM on October 30, 2017 [115 favorites]

SMERSH would be more accurate.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

[Really]
posted by rokusan at 10:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Does anybody know Mueller's address? I would like to send him and his team a thank you card, for being Americans who have put country first.

Flowers. Everyone should drown the FBI offices with flowers.
posted by rokusan at 10:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

So, behind the blue curtains I assume SHS and Kelly are still trying to physically restrain Trump from rushing to the microphone? Trying to distract him with shiny objects?

Save it for chat, mister. :-)
posted by Bella Donna at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

SHS

Have we not accepted "Suckabee" as the official abbreviation?
posted by ominous_paws at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

And House of Cards...

There's a whole other reason to worry about that show, not that I've bothered watching since S02.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Gallup approval ratings for Trump took a big jump this morning - 33% approve, 62% disapprove

FYI, these are Trump's highest disapproval and lowest approvals since Gallup has been polling this president.

Wow. I had convinced myself that he would never go below 35% because that was the size of his hard core base. But these numbers are before today's news.
posted by gwint at 10:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

Bond007

Anecdotally, being super into James Bond and other spy thrillers after the age of 12 is an excellent predictor of becoming or being a far-right shitstain. Shouldn't be surprising that it reaches the Manafort-stratum of power.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:31 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Save it for chat, mister. :-)

...does that make it a double post?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:31 AM on October 30, 2017

Hey, if you're shocked that practically none of this stuff leaked ahead of time: you do know that the US military routinely issues top secret clearances to people who aren't even old enough to drink, and those people actually honor that trust, right?

There are, in fact, people out there who can keep a secret, who care about their jobs and their country, and who choose to do the right thing. I have no trouble believing Mueller knows how to find and hire such people.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [49 favorites]

SHS is on
posted by anya32 at 10:35 AM on October 30, 2017

SHS is on: let's talk about tax reform!
posted by filthy light thief at 10:35 AM on October 30, 2017

Man, today is like that Christmas when I got Castle Grayskull and Snake Mountain!
posted by dirigibleman at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Oh for fucks sake, she's telling the stupid rich guy at the bar analogy
posted by TwoWordReview at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Does anybody know Mueller's address? I would like to send him and his team a thank you card, for being Americans who have put country first.

Flowers. Everyone should drown the FBI offices with flowers.

Not to be a downer, but remember that these offices have to routinely deal with mailed threats and such, and probably wouldn't actually wind up receiving most of these well-intentioned cards.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

This tax analogy is torture.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Anecdotally, being super into James Bond and other spy thrillers after the age of 12 is an excellent predictor of becoming or being a far-right shitstain.

Not really.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

SHS is reciting an email forward from your racist uncle about tax rates
posted by 0xFCAF at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [62 favorites]

Look I'm no economist but I'm pretty sure this bar metaphor is dumb.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Oh good. Sanders can use the occasion of having her briefing carried live on cable while everyone is watching to spout nonsense memes about the Republican tax plan.
posted by zachlipton at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2017

Anecdotally, being super into James Bond and other spy thrillers after the age of 12 is an excellent predictor of becoming or being a far-right shitstain. Shouldn't be surprising that it reaches the Manafort-stratum of power.

hey now
posted by asteria at 10:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

This feels like a poorly written SAT question.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Approximate presidential approval ratings at the start of their 10th month in office:

FDR - 62%
HST - 83%
Ike - 75%
JFK - 79%
LBJ - 72%
Nixon - 60%
Ford - 51%
Carter - 55%
Reagan - 58%
GHWB - 70%
Clinton - 50%
GWB - 87%
Obama - 53%
Trump - 33%

God, you guys. There's just so much winning I don't know what to do...

Look at Obama and remember that there was constant yelling and screaming from the right about how bad he was, how terrible the upcoming Obamacare bill was, how he was gonna raise taxes on everyone, plus all the birther stuff and other reminders to the base that hey, there's a black man in the White House. And that's about as far as they could drag him down by that point.

Trump's a damn boat anchor.
posted by azpenguin at 10:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

This is a boringass story about the reporters at the bar.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:39 AM on October 30, 2017

Friendly reminder that we're talking about the briefing over in Chat, and liveblogging here is discouraged.
posted by ITheCosmos at 10:39 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

#notall007fans
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:39 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

I just asked the FBI on Twitter how best to send cards.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

STOP STOP THERE IS ONLY SO MUCH POPCORN THE HUMAN FORM CAN INGEST AT ONE TIME
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

A theme song for today: don't forget to leave time for love!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:40 AM on October 30, 2017

/splutters martini.
posted by Artw at 10:40 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Now pay attention, 007! This looks like a normal Metafilter comment, but if you press this button, it will automatically derail the entire thread.
posted by condour75 at 10:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [110 favorites]

Don't send Mueller cards, you guys. He's not doing it because it makes you happy. He's doing it because it's his job.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Can we feed Sarah Huckabee Sanders to the leopards yet
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

(Also note that GWB's approval rating was a month and a half after 9/11, so it's...generous, to say the least.)
posted by elsietheeel at 10:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

it is incredible to me that we are all now just used to plain lies being delivered from this podium by the administration

SHS is lying, straight up lying

this should really still be astonishing
posted by prefpara at 10:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

Sanders is now trying to claim that the indictment "has nothing to do with the Trump campaign" because Papadopolous pled guilty to lying and not to anything he did during the campaign. So that's fun.

Can someone please ask her about the million dollars worth of rugs? It's not important, but I think she should be pressed to explain it.
posted by zachlipton at 10:43 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Oh FFS, of course we can send cards. Do you know how nice it is for government employees to get notes of appreciation instead of complaints? He's not doing it for us but we are totally allowed to express appreciation and I, at least, am confident it would be received well.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

I'm taking a break from obsessively refreshing the internet in my cubicle to obsessively refresh the internet at Starbucks.

Noted invertebrate* Pat Toomey has also selected today to tweet about "tax reform." It's going about how you'd expect.

*My dad is a philosopher of biology and he's had a book on his office bookshelf for decades called The Sex Lives of Animals Without Backbones and damn if I can't scrub that image from my brain every time I think about these squirming annelids.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

Also, a reminder that in the moment responses to the press briefing belong in chat. I'm not a moderator but it's true anyway.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

how about sending the money to a good cause in his name or something
posted by entropicamericana at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Don't send Mueller cards, you guys. He's not doing it because it makes you happy. He's doing it because it's his job.

My postal worker is doing her job, and at Christmas I might give a card. The firefighters are doing their job, and if they saved my house from fire, I'd definitely send a card. Sometimes a job well-done deserves recognition, even if they're doing it for the sake of a job, not because they love me.
posted by explosion at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

Everyone likes to be appreciated, even dedicated civil servants who are doing their jobs to the best of their ability.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Acosta pointing out how Trump instagrammed the fucking conspiracy.
posted by Talez at 10:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

I like how the party line is that Manafort was like a college intern in terms of significance to the campaign because he was volunteering his time. Works for me! Let's all move on to the next!
posted by prefpara at 10:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Oh FFS, of course we can send cards. Do you know how nice it is for government employees to get notes of appreciation instead of complaints? He's not doing it for us but we are totally allowed to express appreciation and I, at least, am confident it would be received well.

I'm not. Actually, I'm fairly confident that it wouldn't be received well. He's not some random, overlooked government employee. He's someone who has reason to be concerned about his physical safety, who is overseeing an investigation that is being portrayed as a partisan witch-hunt. Sending him cards plays into that perception.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Sanders is now trying to claim that the indictment "has nothing to do with the Trump campaign" because Papadopolous pled guilty to lying and not to anything he did during the campaign.

It's hard to argue with logic like that (because it's crazy).
posted by diogenes at 10:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

"....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!"

Trump's Mirror translation: "Also, it is ALL COLLUSION!"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I find it sort of comforting to think that Brexit and Trump were not two separate inexplicable phenomenon, but part of a single phenomenon we are now beginning to understand.

I recall being very puzzled, in the campaign, when Trump said he was going to be called "Mr. Brexit".......
posted by thelonius at 4:45 AM on October 30 [9 favorites +] [!]

More evidence that the man is just too stupid to exist. I'm sure that at some point all his partners realize that they can't tell him anything, or else he will spill the beans, casually, to the next person he wants to impress.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Talez: Acosta pointing out how Trump instagrammed the fucking conspiracy.

SHS response: Trump has been in photographs with millions of people.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Does anyone else read Manafort as the kind of guy who would never cooperate and refuse to roll, even to the point of going to jail, entirely out of contempt and spite for his enemies?

I don't think he's got any ethics or morals or loyalty that would bind him to 45, or even to Putin. But he strikes me as the kind of guy who'd meet every possible deal with "Yeah, fuck you."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Sanders is now trying to claim that the indictment "has nothing to do with the Trump campaign" because Papadopolous pled guilty to lying and not to anything he did during the campaign.

It's hard to argue with logic like that (because it's crazy).
posted by diogenes at 12:48 PM on October 30 [3 favorites +] [!]

Paraphrase of SHS: "Of course, the real crime we should be investigating is the way the Clinton campaign paid [an American firm] with money [originally provided by Republicans] for false information [meaning opposition research, which every campaign ever has paid for]. That's different [in that it's legal, versus what Trump has done, which is very illegal] and a big deal [because, again, totally illegal versus not illegal]."

Watching these things makes me so angry. What happened to this person to make them do this job?
posted by TheProfessor at 10:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

In case you're wondering how important today is, Seth Abramson's latest Twitter thread is up to 135 tweets and 5 PS's.

For comparison, when Pearl Harbor was attacked, he only made it to 112 tweets and 3 PS's.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:54 AM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

Sanders is now trying to claim that the indictment "has nothing to do with the Trump campaign" because Papadopolous pled guilty to lying and not to anything he did during the campaign.

Nice try, SHS, but no. But for his work for the campaign, would he be lying to investigators?
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:54 AM on October 30, 2017

To: Special Counsel's Office
Robert F. Kennedy Department of Justice Building
950 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, D.C., United States

Dear Special Counsel Team,

Your diligent and bipartisan effort to uphold justice in our country is appreciated.

Thank you,

Your Name Here
posted by elsietheeel at 10:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

Watching these things makes me so angry. What happened to this person to make them do this job?

Her brother literally tortured a dog to death. These are deeply broken people.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

Does anyone else read Manafort as the kind of guy who would never cooperate and refuse to roll, even to the point of going to jail, entirely out of contempt and spite for his enemies?

That's what Roger Stone says but Manafort strikes me as the kind of person who enjoys the finer things in life, and spending much of the rest of your life in prison is not one of the finer things.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Fox News saying now that Presidential press conference is forthcoming.

I'd take a small bet on Trump just having a total meltdown and inadvertently incriminating himself.

"You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"
posted by darkstar at 10:55 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

SHS's deflector shields are too strong. Try altering the frequency of the photon torpedos!
posted by Talez at 10:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

i can't believe you're all making me read this thank you card nonsense with my own eyes
posted by poffin boffin at 10:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [68 favorites]

Instead of sending Mueller a thank you card or flowers, consider making a donation in his name to a charity like the FBI Agents Assosciation's college fund.
posted by nathan_teske at 10:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

WELL NOW YOU'RE NOT GETTING ONE.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:57 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

(Also note that GWB's approval rating was a month and a half after 9/11, so it's...generous, to say the least.)

Looks like on 9/10/2001, Bush was just above 50%, which basically puts him on the same footing as Obama (53%) at the same time in their presidencies. Do with that what you will.
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

I-Write-Essays: "Wooooow, Hacker News is blocking all mention of the Manafort indictment. What's up with that :p"

Those amazing cowards put a blanket ban on "politics" a while back.
posted by TypographicalError at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Just a delicious observation that my autocorrect really wants "Huckabee" to be "huckster."
posted by thebrokedown at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

Not one question about the impropriety of Trump meeting with Sessions today.

Note that Sessions oversaw the foreign policy advisory committee during the campaign, the one with Papadopolous.
posted by zachlipton at 10:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

SHS response: Trump has been in photographs with millions of people.

There's video of Trump speaking about PAPADOPOULOS by name at at least one campaign event, so...
posted by zombieflanders at 10:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

i can't believe you're all making me read this thank you card nonsense with my own eyes

It's simultaneously rage inducing and endearing. That's not an easy combo to pull off.
posted by diogenes at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Not one question about the impropriety of Trump meeting with Sessions today.

Your liberal media, ladies and gentlemen.

While Trump and his cronies are not very smart, the evidence that many major media figures are a lot smarter is sadly lacking. Steve Inskeep, for just one example, either can't tell when he's being lied to or, worse, pretends not to be able to.

By contrast, when I was a wee pup in high school journalism class, my teacher told us that if your source lies to you, that's your story.
posted by Gelatin at 11:01 AM on October 30, 2017 [75 favorites]

Does anyone else read Manafort as the kind of guy who would never cooperate and refuse to roll, even to the point of going to jail, entirely out of contempt and spite for his enemies?

literally every single person associated with trump in any way is the kind of person who would sell their own mother to a dog food factory if there was something in it for them
posted by poffin boffin at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [73 favorites]

Yeah, definitely don't love-bomb national level officials with cards. When you're operating at that level they're probably already getting a crapton of random mail, including whatever crankmail they get from nutjobs.

And in the end it's going to cost a crapton of money for the US government to screen all of it and deal with it, and he's probably not even going to see it personally. His aides will be doing most of the mail opening.

I don't want to dissuade you from expressing your civic pride and enthusiasm, but you probably shouldn't do this. Getting a truckload of mail isn't a joke, especially if it goes on every day for a week or a month.

Consider instead donating to a non-profit in his name. If enough people donated to, say, the ACLU or PP in his name that would likely make the news cycle.

If you still really want to send mail somewhere, send something to your congress critters about the rule of law or to support the investigation.
posted by loquacious at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

has anyone heard further confirmation that there is to be a presidential press conference?

Not going to happen until after the next election. Unless you merely meant a president holding a press conference.
posted by srboisvert at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

So Trump is really going to have a press conference? Is anyone taking bets on how many times he incrimtates himself and/or someone else?
posted by Room 641-A at 11:02 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Meanwhile, Paul and Rick have pled not guilty.
posted by theodolite at 11:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Manafort arrives at the FBI.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

What about chocolates? We haven't covered that angle yet.
posted by diogenes at 11:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

i can't believe you're all making me read this thank you card nonsense with my own eyes

Hallmark finally has a slogan.
posted by notorious medium at 11:03 AM on October 30, 2017 [54 favorites]

As far as I can tell the idea that Trump is going to have a press conference was started by one poster in this thread who thought they saw it on a Fox News chyron while they were busy doing other stuff.
posted by lazaruslong at 11:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

MSNBC reporting that Gates is represented by a public defender....
posted by Room 641-A at 11:04 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

literally every single person associated with trump in any way is the kind of person who would sell their own mother to a dog food factory if there was something in it for them

"Is mom gonna be working the line or is she going in the can? Not a deal breaker, either way, just curious." -Paul
posted by The Bellman at 11:06 AM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

MSNBC reporting that Gates is represented by a public defender....

So he's not getting any of the $430K the President promised?
posted by notyou at 11:07 AM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

literally every single person associated with trump in any way is the kind of person who would sell their own mother to a dog food factory if there was something in it for them

"Is mom gonna be working the line or is she going in the can? Not a deal breaker, either way, just curious." -Paul

The great thing is that there are so many politicians with "Paul" in their name that this works for.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

A brief note on non-Mueller issues: House Republicans’ tax overhaul bill to be opposed by home-builder trade group

This despite the GOP reportedly dropping an earlier plan to limit the home mortgage deduction. This could be a major blow - the NAHB is a powerful lobby.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

So he's not getting any of the $430K the President promised?

Of course not, this has nothing to do with the campaign, remember?
posted by elsietheeel at 11:08 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

So he's not getting any of the $430K the President promised?

Legal fees at this level? $430k doesn't go that far, to be honest.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:09 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

MSNBC reporting that Gates is represented by a public defender....

Well when they've frozen all of your accounts...
posted by explosion at 11:09 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Stupid question: how reputable is Seth Abramson? I've heard him lumped in with Louise Mensch previously. His megathread on twitter seems cogent, but I don't want to walk around with any hope-induced fishhooks protruding from my lips.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

And now Mueller has unsealed Papadopolous's plea proceedings.

Running to the window, he opened it, and put out his head. No fog, no mist; clear, bright, jovial, stirring, cold; cold, piping for the blood to dance to; Golden sunlight; Heavenly sky; sweet fresh air; merry bells. Oh, glorious! Glorious!

"What's to-day!" cried Metafilter, calling downward to a boy who perhaps had loitered in to look about him.

"EH?" returned the boy, with all his might of wonder.

"What's to-day, my fine fellow?" said Metafilter.

"To-day!" replied the boy. "Why, MUELLER DAY."
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:10 AM on October 30, 2017 [63 favorites]

Happy Papadopolmas everyone!
posted by Sauce Trough at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Everyone. Please take the time to fax, email, or call your congress critters if your congress critters have stayed silent and been complicit. Just remind them that history will remember them as being complicit.

I look forward to seeing which non-sensical pre-canned response Trey Hollingsworth's staff will choose for me.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

@pemalevy
Wow. "PAPADOPOULOS emailed the High Ranking Campaign Official, with the subject line "New message from Russia"... [SCREENSHOT OF INDICTMENT]

@HeerJeet Retweeted Pema Levy
"Burn After Reading" stupid.
posted by chris24 at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

Manafort's bond is 10 million, 5 million for Gates.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:11 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

JARED KUSHNER DID NOT JUST DELETE ALL HIS TWEETS.

I seem to recall that going around on Jan 20th or thereabouts, too.
posted by Existential Dread at 11:12 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

it is incredible to me that we are all now just used to plain lies being delivered from this podium by the administration

SHS is lying, straight up lying

this should really still be astonishing

A good portion of my young adulthood was spent screaming at live broadcasts of Ari Fleischer.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

Oh my gosh I knew he wasn't the brightest bulb in the box, but really? REALLY?

#1. They're backed up everywhere.

#2. PAPADOPOULOS *JUST* GOT SMACKED FOR DOING THAT.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

> Manafort's bond is 10 million, 5 million for Gates.

Dollars or Rubles?
posted by tonycpsu at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

And neither Manafort or Gates may use funds that have been obtained through criminal means to post their bond.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 11:13 AM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

SHS: oh no, it looks like we ALL got chloroformed
posted by poffin boffin at 11:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

MSNBC reporting that Gates is represented by a public defender

Interesting. From Ken White aka Popehat's "lawsplainer" (emphasis mine):

Manafort and Gates will be booked and will make their initial appearance before a United States Magistrate Judge, probably this afternoon. They'll be released based on some sort of bail under the Bail Reform Act, which will provoke uninformed outrage. The fact that they were allowed to surrender suggests that the Special Counsel won't seek high bail — they may even be released on their own recognizance without bail, or may only be required to sign a signature bond (a promise to pay money if they don't show up), but may be required to post money or property to secure their return. That could get interesting, as the Special Prosecutor can make them demonstrate that the money or property they post is not derived from ill-gotten gains.

posted by zombieflanders at 11:14 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

(Is it likely that the Kush just protected them all/made them private instead?)
posted by elsietheeel at 11:15 AM on October 30, 2017

Papadopolous is being represented by Robert W. Stanley, Esq. of Breen & Pugh. His bio page is somewhat less than illuminating.
posted by scalefree at 11:16 AM on October 30, 2017

Say thank you by writing a letter to the editor of your local newspaper supporting Mueller's work and calling for Congress to create an independent investigation into foreign meddling in the 2016 election.
posted by jointhedance at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

I am willing to make the trip off the record if it's in the interest of Mr. Trump and the campaign to meet specific people.

Tell me again how Trump knew nothing about this at all poor soul so ignorant and dumb only hiring the best people. Come on, tell me.
posted by lydhre at 11:18 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

@ryanjreilly
Area “High-Ranking Campaign Official” and “Senior Policy Advisor” might want to call the lawyers.

---

I'm assuming HRCO is Manafort, but is the SPA Gates or ??? Or is HCRO not Manafort since he's specifically named elsewhere?
posted by chris24 at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Jared doesn't tweet. He has an account, but doesn't tweet. It was not wiped.
posted by greermahoney at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

So let's find out if Manafort has at least 15% of that not tied up in, say, the foreign accounts he's accused of failing to declare or the money he received from unregistered foreign lobbying or fraudulent mortgages or very expensive rugs. Does Manafort own (legal) things? Let's find out.

The idea of the burden of proof being on him, to PROVE that he actually came by this money honestly, like by tracing it back through a few years worth of IRS docs where he declared it nice and legal, does fill me with more glee than I had first anticipated.
posted by Mayor West at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

Papadopolous is being represented by Robert W. Stanley, Esq. of Breen & Pugh. His bio page is somewhat less than illuminating.

If your lawyer is still talking up his high school sports career, you better hope the DA has bigger fish to fry.
posted by ocschwar at 11:19 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Where are the Team Crusaders For Democracy, Jeff Flake, John McCain and Bob Corker today? No better way to fight back than total radio silence, apparently.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:20 AM on October 30, 2017 [30 favorites]

Hi - could someone gently recap the briefing today? I can't seem to find anything about it other than the big SHS quote that is floating around.
posted by obtuser at 11:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

His bio page is somewhat less than illuminating.

But it is comedy gold!

In 2007, while successfully defending a client charged in a triple homicide, Tom Breen and Todd Pugh noticed that opposing counsel was ably supported by quiet young man who sat stoically behind counsel table.

He captured their attention by being quiet and sitting stoically!
posted by diogenes at 11:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Papadopolous is being represented by Robert W. Stanley, Esq. of Breen & Pugh. His bio page is somewhat less than illuminating.

They haven't even finished filling out the template!

Admitted to practice in the following courts
- List

Bar associations and organizations
- List

Areas of Practice
- List

posted by Room 641-A at 11:21 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

He captured their attention by being quiet and sitting stoically!

You can always tell a Milford man...
posted by palomar at 11:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

From The Daily Beast. I will not be weeping tears if corrupt, corporate Democratic power brokers are caught up in this.

As part of their work for the Centre, the Podesta Group and Mercury LLC defended Ukraine’s 2012 elections and tried to persuade Washington power-brokers that Yanukovych would move the country closer to the U.S. and further away from Putin. To make that case, the Podesta Group distributed literature quoting close Putin allies –– but without giving readers that context. Both the Podesta Group and Mercury LLC neglected to register with the Justice Department when they started working with Manafort for Yanukovych. This indictment suggests they should have known better. “It certainly means they need to be lawyering up,” said the lobbyist, “because they are material witnesses.”
posted by Bella Donna at 11:22 AM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

loquacious: "If enough people donated to, say, the ACLU or PP in his name that would likely make the news cycle."

Fucking 2017, where we advise people to donate the ACLU in the name of a former head of the FBI with zero irony.
posted by TypographicalError at 11:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [48 favorites]

Hi - could someone gently recap the briefing today?

"No puppet, no puppet, Clinton is the real puppet". End recap.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

He captured their attention by being quiet and sitting stoically!

You can always tell a Milford man.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:23 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

And by "caught up" I actually mean "caught".
posted by Bella Donna at 11:23 AM on October 30, 2017

His bio page is somewhat less than illuminating.

In the few minutes since I posted this link they replaced the original text, several hundred repetitions of "need bio placed here".
posted by scalefree at 11:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Oh, it just keeps getting better.

Do Ivanka Trump & Paul Manafort Know Each Other? The First Daughter Was Instrumental In Hiring Him

According to the Times, Ivanka and her husband, Jared Kushner, were partially responsible for drafting Manafort into the elder Trump's circle. Thrush reports that in early 2016, Manafort met with Thomas J. Barrack Jr., a friend to both Manafort and Ivanka. Barrack was impressed, and passed on Manafort's specific recommendations for Trump's campaign to Ivanka, who in turn gave Manafort's advice to her father.

posted by chris24 at 11:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

could someone gently recap the briefing today? I can't seem to find anything about it other than the big SHS quote that is floating around.

It was predictably contentless. Press sec opened with a long dumb restaurant analogy for why tax reform blah blah blah. Reporters asked a bunch of questions about the basics of the Manafort/Gates/Papadopoulos indictments and such, press secretary dodged or dismissed 'em all. A few questions about tax reform, ditto.
posted by cortex at 11:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

odinsdream: "I'm a bit agog at the magnificence of $934,350 paid to Vendor C, an antique rug store in Alexandria, Virginia

I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that Richard Spencer's apartment is right in that neighborhood."

Probably? I used to live there, that's pretty much where you would go to buy fancy rugs in Alexandria.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Hi - could someone gently recap the briefing today?

Like this but also let's talk about tax reform guys
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:24 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Ahh, the Fancy Rug District.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:25 AM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

TwoWordReview on SH Sanders: Oh for fucks sake, she's telling the stupid rich guy at the bar analogy

Several others have referenced this in the thread and compared it to emails forwarded by your grandparents, but no one has elaborated, so... what's the analogy? Does it come down to "rich people pay a disproportionate share of taxes, which is unfair", even though by that metric the only possible "fair" scheme would be a head tax, e.g $10,000 per individual?
posted by InTheYear2017 at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

There are two HRCO's, Manafort and Lewandowski. Gates is the "another campaign official" referred to in the Papadopoulos footnotes.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2017

Hi - could someone gently recap the briefing today? I can't seem to find anything about it other than the big SHS quote that is floating around.

Honestly, I don't think there was anything of substance. Lots of "this is no story, these events took place before the campaign" and "he was just a lowly volunteer," plus some comments about Hillary and other dumb tangents already covered in this thread.

tl;dw: you missed nothing.

And here's an earlier version of "the tax system, explained with 10 people buying beer at a bar." It's in British pounds, but the figures look the same.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Any Torontonians getting Hotmail Lawyer flashbacks?
posted by maudlin at 11:27 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

So the lawyers page has been updated yet again:

Admitted to practice in the following courts
- Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals
- Supreme Court of Illinois
- Northern District of Illinois

So Gates is being charged in Illinois? Or he's just getting his appeals attorney lined up, just in case?
posted by Room 641-A at 11:29 AM on October 30, 2017

I'm curious if there is evidence that Manafort did anything other the Russian collusion for the Trump campaign.
posted by srboisvert at 11:29 AM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Daily Beast reports on Paul Manafort’s Frantic Brooklyn Brownstone Renovation, in which Manafort paid cash up front for last-minute emergency renovations to his Brooklyn place. One of the (less dramatic) charges against him is that he took out a construction loan for the property years ago, but failed to use the money to actually do renovations. It sounds like he made a last-ditch effort to have some work done on the place because he knew the indictment was coming.
posted by zachlipton at 11:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Haha, that I was planning to send Mueller a thank you card was pretty much tongue in cheek. Calm down people.

But I kind of like the idea of sending chocolates.
posted by bluesky43 at 11:30 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Stupid question: how reputable is Seth Abramson?

Not a stupid question--a very open one. I know that he was (or is?) a lawyer. He's also had a poetry career, and was well known in literary circles. He's kind of become persona non grata in that world, though. He self-published a poem immediately after the Eliot Rodgers mass killing that "remixed" the killer's words, which was widely (and correctly, I think) as exploitative. He was already pretty grossly careerist, constantly trying to make the coin he popularized, metamodernism, A Thing, mostly by writing obnoxious articles for HuffPo. He seems, in my estimation, like a generally self-interested, self-serving person, and driven by that impulse to produce lots of hot air.
posted by cudzoo at 11:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

And here's an earlier version of "the tax system, explained with 10 people buying beer at a bar." It's in British pounds, but the figures look the same.

Yup, so does the gross condescending tone. My favorite part* was where she told everyone in the room she'd be sure to get them a copy so they had "the numbers."

*"My favorite part" here meaning "The part that I thought I might spit literal fire I was so mad"
posted by solotoro at 11:32 AM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

But I kind of like the idea of sending chocolates.

Presumably, edibles sent to him are going straight in the trash. Yes, yes, they can test for poisons, but I don't think even the appeal of delicious chocolate will lead them to take the risk of a false negative.
posted by jackbishop at 11:33 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Briefing evasions recap: Lots of claims that this is irrelevant; the activities of the indictment have nothing to do with the president; CLINTON CAMPAIGN LOOKIT LOOKIT; the president doesn't remember - no, wait, I mean, I didn't talk to the president about those details.

Summary:
1) None of this is relevant to the president.
2) These were all activities outside the campaign.
3) No comment on "hires the best people" - Manafort was hired to do a specific job and he did that.
4) The president had no reaction about the undocumented minor who got approved for an abortion. No further comment on that.
5) No comment on this, no comment on that, we did not discuss that issue; very busy with tax reform plan busy busy plz be aware CLINTON CAMPAIGN SCANDAL.
6) Sorry; out of time; gotta go.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:35 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

And here's an earlier version of "the tax system, explained with 10 people buying beer at a bar." It's in British pounds, but the figures look the same.

Yup, so does the gross condescending tone. My favorite part* was where she told everyone in the room she'd be sure to get them a copy so they had "the numbers."

Basically the only way the analogy works is if one completely disregards the concept of payroll taxes, i.e. from the very paychecks that these guys are paying for the beer with.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:36 AM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

It's like the writer of the analogy forgot that people, generally speaking, don't get their wealth handed to them out of thin air as if by magic.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

"I would pay so much money to watch Trump assemble a piece of Ikea furniture." @kumailn

posted by loquacious at 11:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [75 favorites]

@HeerJeet
I've thought Dems should be cautious about expecting too much from Mueller investigation but Papadopoulos plea is massive news.
- With Papadopoulos, we have the outlines of what happened and it's terrible for Trump: quid for quo collusion tied to emails.
- This is the biggest scandal in American history. Bigger than Watergate. We're headed for legitimacy crisis.
posted by chris24 at 11:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [123 favorites]

so... what's the analogy?

Yeah, sorry for the contentless live-bloggy remark. Filthy Light Thief's link has the full story, but it essentially boils down to 'be nice to rich people and let them have their tax cut because they pay more in absolute terms and they might take their ball and go home'.
posted by TwoWordReview at 11:37 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

SHS: Reporters, ha ha! Can't get enough of condescending to that bunch. Reporters drink a lot and are ruleslawyers about fairness so this protracted anecdote pretending that paying taxes is anything at all like paying a bar tab will hold their attention and convince everyone listening that our tax reform plan is the shit. Off we go. Omg, this thing is long, though. Like, really long. Oh, god, I'm getting out of breath. Jesus. It would almost be better to be answering questions than continuing with this thing. natter, natter, winding up, one last insult... whew! Thank god, it's over. Performative giggle, what're your questions?
Reporters: thank you, sarah, what about the indictments?
SHS: nothing is happening.
Reporters: thank you, sarah, what about the indictments?
SHS: nothing is happening.
Reporters: thank you, sarah, what about the indictments?
SHS: nothing is happening.
Reporters: What about welfare reform?
SHH: I don't know anything about it.
Reporters: thank you, sarah, I actually have a tax reform question, but first, what about the indictments?
SHS: nothing is happening.
Reporters: Thank you, sarah, what about that tax reform, then?
SHS: our plan is the shit.
Reporters: thank you, sarah, what about the indictments?
SHS: nothing is happening.
Reporters: thank you, sarah, what about the indictments?
SHS: I've answered this question several times. God bide ye.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

U.S. District Court for D.C. has four sealed cases in its docket with case numbers between Papadopoulos' (182) and Manafort's (201).

Ruh roh.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [152 favorites]

Can we skip the 20 responses on if it's ok to send the FBI edibles? Let's pretend we've already had it and it came down to "Do what you want, it's a free country.*"

*Some exceptions apply.
posted by greermahoney at 11:38 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Can I add the response there needs to be a better way to do these indepth analyses than Twitter? Those 100+ response threads make my forehead explode trying to read them. I want the information, but I can't handle the medium.
posted by Samizdata at 11:41 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

The sealed cases, as noted in the twitter thread, may not be related to this investigation. Approximately 1/3 of cases in general are sealed. No info on how common it is to have several sealed cases stack together.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Lawfare: Robert Mueller’s Show of Strength: A Quick and Dirty Analysis

The first big takeaway from this morning’s flurry of charging and plea documents with respect to Paul Manafort Jr., Richard Gates III, and George Papadopoulos is this: The President of the United States had as his campaign chairman a man who had allegedly served for years as an unregistered foreign agent for a puppet government of Vladimir Putin, a man who was allegedly laundering remarkable sums of money even while running the now-president’s campaign, a man who allegedly lied about all of this to the FBI and the Justice Department.

The second big takeaway is even starker: A member of President Trump’s campaign team now admits that he was working with people he knew to be tied to the Russian government to “arrange a meeting between the Campaign and the Russian government officials” and to obtain “dirt” on Hillary Clinton in the form of thousands of hacked emails—and that he lied about these activities to the FBI. He briefed President Trump on at least some them.

Before we dive any deeper into the Manafort-Gates indictment—charges to which both pled not guilty to today—or the Papadopoulos plea and stipulation, let’s pause a moment over these two remarkable claims, one of which we must still consider as allegation and the other of which we can now consider as admitted fact. President Trump, in short, had on his campaign at least one person, and allegedly two people, who actively worked with adversarial foreign governments in a fashion they sought to criminally conceal from investigators. One of them ran the campaign. The other, meanwhile, was interfacing with people he “understood to have substantial connections to Russian government officials” and with a person introduced to him as “a relative of Russian President Vladimir Putin with connections to senior Russian government officials.” All of this while President Trump was assuring the American people that he and his campaign had "nothing to do with Russia."

posted by zachlipton at 11:42 AM on October 30, 2017 [106 favorites]

I want the information, but I can't handle the medium.

as opposed to Trump who manhandles the medium but cant do information...?
posted by Namlit at 11:43 AM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

I want the information, but I can't handle the medium.

as opposed to Trump who manhandles the medium but cant do information...?

Ice burn!
posted by Samizdata at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2017

Hotmail Lawyer flashbacks

♫ Shady Hotmail lawyer
Working for their client!
Sending lots of empty threats
and being noncompliant!
posted by Iridic at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

I wonder how happy a birthday Ivanka is having right now?
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Damnit! I knew I shouldn't have cut and pasted from the WaPo timeline. Les incompetents...

So there's still a mystery emailee left...
April 27. Papadopoulos emails a senior campaign staffer to indicate that he’s gotten some “interesting messages.”
And we know it's not Lewandowski, Manafort, or Gates.
posted by elsietheeel at 9:41 AM on October 30 [+] [!]

The indictment itself says Senior Policy Advisor. That's most likely Jefferson Beauregard Sessions.

AAAAAAAMEN!
posted by elsietheeel at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

Rep. Elise Stefanik [R - NY-21]: In light of today's news on the Mueller probe I wanted to express my continued support for this investigation.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:45 AM on October 30, 2017 [59 favorites]

One of those odd days when I'm heartily enjoying FOX News.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

my god what i would give to see the humiliating public downfall of that horrible shriveled old racist baby
posted by poffin boffin at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

The fourth sealed indictment was number 200, right before Manafort's which was 201, so there's a better than average chance that one is related.
posted by TwoWordReview at 11:46 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

> Stupid question: how reputable is Seth Abramson?

Not a stupid question--a very open one.

Indeed. In his favor, he works from published news stories, not rumors and unattributed/anonymous sources (like Claude Taylor and Louise Mensch). He's also been well ahead of the mainstream media in identifying the importance of Trump's March and April foreign policy meetings in terms of the collusion timeline—and he had down Papadopoulos as a key person of interest over the summer. In short, caveat lector, like all the #resistance hashtag investigators, but you can keep him in your Trump-Russia Twitter feed.
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:47 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'm taking bets that #200 is Sessions. Who's in?
posted by elsietheeel at 11:48 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Papadopolous' Model UN experience? A lie of course.
posted by chris24 at 11:49 AM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

I know this is off-topic for the thread, and I don’t want to cause a derail, but I think my question is a one-and-done, so —

Who was the last American citizen charged with “conspiracy against the United States” before this morning? I thought maybe the Rosenbergs, but their charge was “conspiracy to commit espionage,” so.
posted by tzikeh at 11:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Is there a sealed one between Manafort and Gates? Because Lewandowski is in there somewhere as well.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

You can't really blame the Trump administration for continuing with the "No puppet! You're the puppet" line of defense. It worked remarkably well for a long time.
posted by diogenes at 11:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

like i'm trying to remain calm and have reasonable-for-2017-expectations but i am nevertheless drawn by the seductive siren song of cackling BURRRRN HIM instead
posted by poffin boffin at 11:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

I can't believe that I watched 20 minutes of Dana Perino's Mueller coverage on Fox News without once hearing something insane, a lie, or an insane lie. What is happening.
posted by Rust Moranis at 11:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Presidential historian Michael Beschloss via Twitter:

House Judiciary Committee voted to launch inquiry into impeachment of President Nixon, today 1973.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:50 AM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

Layperson here: what exactly is a sealed indictment? Will we ever find out who it's for? Is there a legitimate reason to believe they are related to Mueller's investigation?
posted by Tarumba at 11:51 AM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

From twitter:

Days to fall to 33% approval rating:
Source: Gallup
Reagan: Never
H.W. Bush: 1,283
Clinton: Never
W. Bush: 1,933
Obama: Never
Trump: 285
posted by xyzzy at 11:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

Here’s how ex-Trump advisor George Papadopoulos could take down Jeff Sessions
posted by Room 641-A at 11:52 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Who was the last American citizen charged with “conspiracy against the United States” before this morning?

As noted earlier, this is not an espionage or treason charge. It's a routine tack-on charge for drug conspiracy, organized crime, Medicare fraud, contract fraud, white collar crime, Enron, etc. It sounds worse than it is, but it's the standard statute for a federal conspiracy.

Edit: Lawtalking pdf link for an overview of federal conspiracy
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:53 AM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Layperson here: what exactly is a sealed indictment? Will we ever find out who it's for? Is there a legitimate reason to believe they are related to Mueller's investigation?

It's something filed with the court that is not yet available to the public. Yes, you usually do. The numbers are issued sequentially, so unless something else was being dealt with at exactly the same moment it is quite likely connected if the numbers are between public filings relating to the same matters.

It's an educated inference, but a reasonable one.
posted by jaduncan at 11:54 AM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

awww fox news is trying to pivot to Niger

When you have to bring up the time you abandoned a soldier because that's a less damaging scandal... :(

Also: every fucking commercial on this network is a scam
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [51 favorites]

Oh, and why you'd have a sealed indictment in criminal law: as an example, it is considered bad form in many cases to let the suspect know that they are going to be charged before you kick the door down.
posted by jaduncan at 11:56 AM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

So best case at this point for Trump is he hired foreign agents as campaign manager and NSA Director, had a rogue advisor colluding with Russia, and didn't tell anyone that his campaign knew Russia hacked Clinton and kept talking to them while denying having anything to do with them.

Seems like a great place to start in an ongoing federal investigation.
posted by chris24 at 11:58 AM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

:> "The role of the Bank of Cyprus in all of this has taken on a critical importance and it’s important to remember that Wilbur Ross, the current Secretary of Commerce, used to be on the board of that bank before he joined Camp Runamuck. This damn thing could go everywhere."

Once again the Wire provides an apropos quote: "You follow drugs, you get drug addicts and drug dealers. But you start to follow the money, and you don't know where the fuck it's gonna take you."
posted by Mitheral at 11:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

To all those trying to temper our expectations over the weekend, saying to chill because this will be just the first domino to fall, thank you, because OMFG THIS IS JUST THE FIRST DOMINO TO FALL!!
posted by klarck at 11:59 AM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

BREAKING NEWS PER FOX

George W. Bush throws out the first pitch of the World Series
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:00 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

From that Raw Story article: "It’s not clear whether Papadopoulos, who was introduced to the Trump campaign by Ben Carson, has damaging information on Sessions or anyone else..."

So, Carson may get dragged into this too? Or will he have an easy explanation of, "I just thought they should meet! I had a hunch. No details. No reason; just thought they'd get along."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:01 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

OK Shepard Smith is actually covering actual news though, to be fair.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:01 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'm sure the story everyone wants to talk about today is health care, right? Er, well I'm going to do a longer post on the subject to go with the start of open enrollment (it will probably be its own FPP about haranguing people to get covered, if everyone's ok with that), but I wanted to flag this excellent KFF report that came out today: How Premiums Are Changing In 2018

In short, overall premiums on the exchanges (the report only covers exchanges run by the federal government, though hard-working folks are busy crunching the state exchange numbers now) are up significantly, with large portions attributable to GOP sabotage:

Nationally, the unsubsidized premium for the lowest-cost bronze plan in the federal Marketplace is increasing an average of 17% between 2017 and 2018, the lowest-cost silver plan is increasing an average of 35%, and the lowest-cost gold plan is increasing an average of 19% (Table 1). These average increases are weighted by the number of plan selections by county in 2017 (see Methods). Premiums for silver plans are rising much more than those for bronze or gold plans because in many states insurers loaded the cost from the termination of the cost-sharing reduction payments entirely on the silver tier.

However, people who receive subsidies (incomes up to 400% of the federal poverty level) will receive tax credits to pay for health care, and in many cases, will pay much less than last year because of the subsidies:

For consumers who receive premium tax credits, the amounts that they will have to pay will often be lower in 2018 (Table 2). The particularly large increase in premiums for silver plans means that tax-credit-eligible Marketplace enrollees will see much higher premium tax credits (which are calculated based on the second-lowest-cost silver plan in each area). These large credits make gold plans more easily attainable and make bronze plans much cheaper (or even available at no additional premium). In fact, after these increases, the lowest-cost gold premium is lower than the lowest-cost silver premium in 459 counties.

For example, a 40-year-old individual making $35,000 (249% of poverty) and eligible for a tax credit will on average pay 39% less in 2018 for their share of the premium for the lowest-cost bronze plan, 7% less for the lowest-cost silver plan, and 13% less for the lowest-cost gold plan. The savings are greater for subsidized enrollees with lower incomes and less for those with higher incomes (Table 2). The premiums for bronze plans may be particularly attractive to many people eligible for premium tax credits. For example, the tax credit for a 40-year-old individual making $25,000 covers the full cost of the premium for the lowest-cost bronze plan in 1,540 counties (Table 3).

However, those making above 400% of the federal poverty level will largely see significant premium increases on the exchanges, as they do not receive tax credits and premiums have increased thanks to Republican sabotage of the market. Such individuals may be better off buying individual plans plans off-exchange, so it pays to shop around.

Open enrollment starts November 1 and only lasts until December 15th this year, much shorter than before. For November 1, I'll have more information on how to get covered, how to get free help to sort through options, and how to pester all your friends and relatives into doing the same.
posted by zachlipton at 12:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [65 favorites]

Ugh, Atrios even fell for the "Kushner deleted his tweets" thing, even though this exact same thing happened a few months back.

Irrational exuberance is a hell of a drug.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

@jimsciutto
"The president should let the special counsel do his job," - Sen Judiciary Cmte Chmn @ChuckGrassley (R)
posted by chris24 at 12:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

Yeah. Basically, since tax subsidies are tied to the cost of the second-cheapest Silver plan, people who are eligible for subsidies don't need to worry that much about the rising sticker price of the plan, since it gets covered by the increase in subsidy. But people who aren't eligible for subsidies because they make more than 400% of the poverty line get hosed.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:05 PM on October 30, 2017

Please chill with the Fox News liveblogging. Fuck a Fox News.

I enjoy watching my enemies panic uselessly though
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

If you go to Bill Moyers' Trump / Russia Timeline and click on "Paul Manafort" you will see a picture captioned "Paul Manafort, Roger Stone and Lee Atwater, the Republican strategist behind the 1988 "Willie Horton" campaign ad, in 1985. "

Beneath the picture is displayed this text:

1980 - Roger Stone founds a lobbying practice with Paul Manafort, who is a childhood friend. Trump becomes one of Stone’s first clients. In the 1980s, Trump hires Manafort as his lawyer on gambling and real-estate issues. By 1988, Stone is one of Trump’s closest advisers.

This is a nice reminder of how long Manafort has been in Trump's orbit (or vice versa.) A screenshot of this picture with that text also makes a nice, shareable meme.

It is also worth revisiting this Bloomberg article:

A source close to Manafort says he’s in regular contact with the vice president-elect, as well as with Trump’s attorney general pick, Jeff Sessions, the Republican senator from Alabama and a Trump supporter and confidant. (Manafort and Sessions have known each other since the ’70s.) And Manafort is also close with Tom Barrack, the billionaire founder of Colony Capital, who has a spot at the top of Trump’s inaugural committee.

It's impossible to Google right now, but as I recall there were reports that Manafort was advising the White House about how to respond to the Russia probe, in February... So these guys have a LONG relationship and remained close long after Manafort was fired as campaign chairman.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [52 favorites]

It seems like Popodopoulis got a good deal with just lying to an FBI agent?

So, Carson may get dragged into this too? Or will he have an easy explanation of, "I just thought they should meet! I had a hunch. No details. No reason; just thought they'd get along."

Ben Carson released a statement: 😴 [fake]
posted by Room 641-A at 12:07 PM on October 30, 2017

To all those trying to temper our expectations over the weekend, saying to chill because this will be just the first domino to fall, thank you, because OMFG THIS IS JUST THE FIRST DOMINO TO FALL!!

It's not that chilled. Put it this way. This week is going to involve a lot of people generating a lot of billable hours. If any of the people really closely tied to either Manafort or Papadopolous were your client...well, sure you'd be cancelling your Halloween parties, but maybe you'd be thinking that you could afford to build that house extension in a year's time when you have time to review the plans properly.
posted by jaduncan at 12:07 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Something I have been wondering about:

I understand how a person who has been pardoned by the president loses their right against self-incrimination. This has been referred to in these threads as a reason Trump would be reluctant to pardon certain cronies, fearing the testimony that would result from such a person having to tell the truth in court.

But why wouldn't such a person just perjure themselves, confident that they'd be pardoned for that as well?
posted by counterfeitfake at 12:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

my god what i would give to see the humiliating public downfall of that horrible shriveled old racist baby

If only there were just the one.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

odinsdream: "I'm a bit agog at the magnificence of $934,350 paid to Vendor C, an antique rug store in Alexandria, Virginia

I'm sure it's a complete coincidence that Richard Spencer's apartment is right in that neighborhood."

Probably? I used to live there, that's pretty much where you would go to buy fancy rugs in Alexandria.

The really shocking thing about this is that it was not that creepy weird-ass fucking wig shop. No way that place isn't a laundering operation.
posted by phearlez at 12:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'm heartened by all of these Republican congressmen supporting Mueller.

Not because I think they're principled. But because they can sense which way the wind is blowing.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [61 favorites]

> The really shocking thing about this is that it was not that creepy weird-ass fucking wig shop. No way that place isn't a laundering operation.

whoa that's where phil and elizabeth get theirs wigs in the americans, they're not even trying [fake probably]
posted by Tevin at 12:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Here's video of Manafort's lawyer just now. He is... less than persuasive.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:16 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Metafilter: Not because I think they're principled. But because they can sense which way the wind is blowing.
posted by Melismata at 12:16 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

@ABCPolitics: BREAKING: Former Trump campaign advisor George Papadopolous has pleaded guilty to making false statements to FBI agents.

Here's the indictment.
posted by zachlipton at 7:17 AM on October 30 [80 favorites +] [!]

Apparently Manafort has not. This means, I assume, that Manafort does not have a plea bargain agreement. Does Papadopolous?
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:17 PM on October 30, 2017

Not because I think they're principled. But because they can sense which way the wind is blowing.

Indeed. If they were principled, it wouldn’t have taken this long and this much. Flake would have done more than his Pontius Pilate act. Graham and McCain would have acted like the good compassionate conservatives people keep telling me they are.

They’re scared now. They should be. I am savoring it like a dinner at the French Laundry.
posted by middleclasstool at 12:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

I understand how a person who has been pardoned by the president loses their right against self-incrimination. This has been referred to in these threads as a reason Trump would be reluctant to pardon certain cronies, fearing the testimony that would result from such a person having to tell the truth in court.

But why wouldn't such a person just perjure themselves, confident that they'd be pardoned for that as well?

You'd have to pardon every single act of perjury (future acts aren't covered), and the act of doing so would be to confirm that perjury had occurred. I would also somewhat question if that wouldn't eventually indicate an effective subornation of perjury (18 U.S.C. § 1622) and/or obstruction of justice by Trump. President Pence could then just pardon private citizen Trump, one would assume; surely even a Ryan/Mitch led congress would start an impeachment after the second or third round of pardons.

Tl;dr: constitutional crisis.
posted by jaduncan at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Manafort is pleading not guilty. His lawyer's primary defense seems to be that one of the crimes he is charged with has only resulted in one conviction since the 1960s. How about we make it two convictions?
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

The Post proves Tom Tomorrow right, identifies Joseph Mifsud as "the Professor" in the Papadopoulos court filings. But the Post's August report has Timofeev writing Papadopoulos about setting up a Trump-Russia meeting.

If both of those things are correct, that would indicate at least two people on the Valdai DIscussion Club panel in April were trying to connect the Trump campaign and Russian officials.
posted by zachlipton at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

zachlipton I'm all for reminders to sign up for insurance and for an FPP about it. A friend and I are working to get the word out in Philly. So many people think that "Trump shut down Obamacare" and are surprised that they can still get insurance (and that subsidies -- if they qualify -- make it affordable).

--- To sign up for ACA:
Go to healthcare.gov. You can compare costs now then sign up November 1st through December 15th.

--- If you need help
Call 800.318.2596 (available 24/7) or go to connector.getcoveredamerica.org to find local help in a variety of languages.

--- To help advertise
DM me for PDFs of posters and fliers and JPGs of graphics for social media
posted by mcduff at 12:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Juan Cole: Six Trump Admin. Crimes That Ought to Bring Indictments: Their documented offenses have nothing to do with collusion with Russia, but somebody should lock these creeps up.
posted by homunculus at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

surely even a Ryan/Mitch led congress would start an impeachment after the second or third round of pardons.

Do not assume that Ryan/McConnell will do anything decent. Ever.

Also, do not call them Shirley.
posted by mightygodking at 12:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Here's video of Manafort's lawyer just now. He is... less than persuasive.

Uh, that doesn't sound like a defense of Manafort and his case, it sounds like a defense of the Trump administration. The charges have nothing to do directly with Russian collusion, so why did the attorney start off by saying "President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence that Manafort and Trump colluded with Russia." ???
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

"You are hereby charged with tax fraud." "MY CLIENT ABSOLUTELY DID NOT KILL THAT PERSON!"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [82 favorites]

Rigged: How Voter Suppression Threw Wisconsin to Trump
posted by Artw at 12:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy and they just might not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

I really want this elitist nobody else could be up there at the top shit called out more often. "Oh noes," the we-must-cut-top-taxes people cry, "if the taxes become too high then these folks may simply choose to excel less. They will not expand their business and provide more things or open more shops!"

Let me introduce you to two things, tax panic-er: Capitalism and a huge fucking US population. Those folks at the top don't want that money once it gets taxed at 38%? That's cool. A lot of other people would love to have it instead. Think back to ECON101 and that obscure supply and demand thing. If the Waltons don't want that money but there's a market for the service? Then someone will step up to supply it.

And the best thing about those people is that they won't be whiny fucking crybabies who'd rather take their ball and go home than pay their share of taxes. They'll be delighted to make that money and keep the majority of it. They won't be useless garbage trust fund babies who never built a business and just rode mediocre herd over what was handed down to them from their parents. They'll be new blood in the economy, doing things new ways, hiring new people.

If the taxes at the top get so high that some folks decide not to participate further than they are already then I say HOO-FUCKING-RAY and get the fuck out. You want to see an immigrant actually take your groddamned job? Walk away from an opportunity because you're butthurt about paying for our civilization. They'll come smoke your ass.

But of course this won't happen because this going galt bullshit threat is all a massive lie and the people who are most whiney about this shit would keep their participation going all the way up to 90% taxation because all they're doing is being massive fat monopolist garbage with little real risk.
posted by phearlez at 12:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [116 favorites]

Here's how Manafort's lawyer ended his statement:

The second thing about this indictment - that I myself find most ridiculous - is the claim that maintaining offshore accounts, to bring all your funds into the United States, as a scheme to conceal from the United States government, is ridiculous.

What is he even saying here?
posted by theodolite at 12:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Surely this.
posted by hijinx at 12:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Benjamin Wallace-Wells's summary for the New Yorker puts the charges in an appropriately damning light for Trump—After the Manafort Indictment, the Mueller Investigation Enters a New Phase

At every point, crucially, Papadopoulos loops in his superiors—immediate ones, distant ones, and at one point even the candidate himself. “Great work,” the campaign supervisor enthuses after he first reports the contact, in March. On March 31st, according to the guilty plea, Papadopoulos reports personally to Donald Trump, and other senior policy officials, that “he had connections that could help arrange a meeting between then-candidate Trump and President Putin.” The plea does not record what the reaction in the room was, but whatever it was it certainly did not discourage Papadopoulos from pressing ahead. In April, the young policy aide e-mailed the “senior policy advisor” to report that his contacts have issued an “open invitation” from Putin to meet Trump “when ready.” The idea of having Trump and Putin meet personally seemed to be a non-starter, but between June and August of last year Papadopoulos pursued the idea of an “off-the-record” meeting between campaign officials and representatives of the Russian government. In one e-mail, Papadopoulos volunteered himself for the task. In August, after Papadopoulos had been discussing the notion of an off-the-record meeting for weeks, his supervisor wrote, according to the plea, “ ’I would encourage you’ and another foreign policy advisor ‘to make the trip if possible.’ ”

This is not "a volunteer" freelancing on his own initiative. This is someone who emailed campaign leadership about what he was doing over and over again, to the point that a couple of advisors started asking questions about the legality of this. And then he lied about what he was doing to the FBI.
posted by zachlipton at 12:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [69 favorites]

He and Trump were in the same speech class.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

theodolite, I’m pretty sure he’s trying to say “funneling money through offshore accounts is not a crime.”
posted by Andrhia at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

The second thing about this indictment - that I myself find most ridiculous - is the claim that maintaining offshore accounts, to bring all your funds into the United States, as a scheme to conceal from the United States government, is ridiculous.

What is he even saying here?

When you can't thump the law or the facts, thump the table.

He has to tell the press something. He's saying nothing of note other than that it's all above board and that his client is a legitimate businessman.
posted by jaduncan at 12:28 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

I mean, that works better if it isn't related to a murky and undeclared payment of $75m from a borderline dictatorship. But eh.
posted by jaduncan at 12:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

In April, the young policy aide e-mailed the “senior policy advisor” to report that his contacts have issued an “open invitation” from Putin to meet Trump “when ready.”

On April 27th, the day after the Russians said they had thousands of HRC emails.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Thanks for the link, filthy light thief. I guess the metaphor a little more sophisticated than I assumed, but still stupid on multiple levels.

So even as facts just keep on pouring out, here's what I'd composed a few hundred comments back...

Every time there's an event like this, one thing that makes the reaction from Trump and his cultists so fun is the lack of consistent message they can use. I remember after Flynn was resig-fired, a lot of Trumpers tried to spin it against Obama by emphasizing that it took years for Obama to fire Flynn, but only weeks under Trump. (As if every new administration is required to hire the exact same Russia-compromised paranoid Islamophobic authoritarian, regardless of the previous team's repeated warnings to not hire him, and hence the real test of worth is how quickly the new guys recognize Flynn's lack of fitness for the job.) But even if you want to push that line of thought, you run up against Donald's own never-ending admiration for Flynn!

So at this point they've mostly all re-aligned into "Flynn can do no wrong", but for a while they were sailing some pretty rough seas of cognitive dissonance. Who knows which way Manafort will land in their collective opinion. (Going by this thread, the donald subreddit seems to be trying for "Manafort is Clintonian" or whatever.) The best clue for the spin is this Trump talking point apparently sampled from Fox:

rokusan: Fox's spin seems to be all about how Manafort's crimes are almost certainly from five or six years ago, and revolved around his "shady businesses" from "years before he was ever associated with President Trump."

@realDonaldTrump (timestampped after rokusan's comment, I think): Sorry, but this is years ago, before Paul Manafort was part of the Trump campaign.

I don't know whether this argument will resolve into "Look, by the time he lead the campaign, Manafort was a changed man!" or something. Like... are Fox/Trump trying to say nobody is a present-tense criminal if they're not doing crime this very moment? I mean, Hillary Benghazi'd all that private-server uranium "years ago", also, right?

In any case, Trump's vanity will absolutely prevent him giving a straight answer to "Would you have hired Manafort knowing what we know now?" He can't just claim to have been hoodwinked, because he has to be the world's smartest man of all time in the history of smartness.

Meanwhile... Trump's "NO COLLUSION!!!" evokes the denials he made some months ago (including his freaking Twitter banner image, remember that?). Just imagine, for a moment, how surreal it would have been if, back in 2009, Obama had tweeted something like "My birth certificate is COMPLETELY LEGITIMATE and I was NOT BORN IN KENYA!!!" I, for one, would have become an instant birther. (Or at least grant the idea way more plausibility. I'd be like "Why does Obama apparently think he was born in Kenya, given the 1961 Honolulu newspaper announcement?")

And after I wrote all that, I learned we just might be treated to a presidential press conference! What a popcorny day. (Not to overdo the what-if-Obama theorizing, but I'm pretty sure that for all their blather about him being teleprompter-reliant or whatever, no Tea Partiers were ever genuinely excited that Obama was about to personally address the nation and hence lose just a little more credibility purely by opening his mouth.)
posted by InTheYear2017 at 12:30 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Why did the attorney start off by saying "President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence that Manafort and Trump colluded with Russia." ???

I'm being charitable here, but maybe it's a ploy to keep Trump from throwing Manafort to the wolves and thus a pardon or intervention by Trump in their back pocket.

Trump is trying to distance himself from Manafort which, if politically gainful, makes a pardon less likely. A lawyer sending a clear message to the President that there's no separating us is maybe an attempt to get him to do something about this other than protect himself.
posted by notorious medium at 12:30 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Here's the opening of a Fox News article: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/30/paul-manafort-judge-who-is-deborah-robinson.html
Paul Manafort judges: Who are Deborah A. Robinson and Amy Berman Jackson?
[Blurry courtroom sketch of Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson, photograph of District Judge Amy Berman Jackson]
The veteran judge former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and his associate Rick Gates will appear in front of Monday afternoon has presided over a list of big-name defendants and has experienced the criminal justice system firsthand -- when her son was convicted of dealing heroin.
The case will then be handed over to an Obama-appointed judge who donated $1,000 to former President Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign.
Magistrate Judge Deborah A. Robinson is a black woman.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:33 PM on October 30, 2017 [43 favorites]

If I ever need a lawyer remind me to never let them talk to a reporter.

A good lawyer wouldn't in the first place. The Trump defendants (ha, we can say that now) are working with the D or F squad as their legal team. Multiple national white collar defense firms took one look at this and said no fucking way are we attaching our name to this dumpster fire, billables or no.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:34 PM on October 30, 2017 [30 favorites]

To sum up, the administration's Season 2 premiere answers a few of the questions raised in Friday's shocking finale episode while raising many more and introducing some intriguing new characters. A-
posted by theodolite at 12:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [63 favorites]

Man. I really want to read about the indictments here, with you good folks and your conversation and analysis and research and links but also it already almost 800 comments and today's like extra Monday-ey and I'm not sure I have the strength and I'll never catch up anyway.
posted by ApathyGirl at 12:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

no fucking way are we attaching our name to this dumpster fire, billables or no

Trump also has a history of stiffing contractors, lawyers, etc. on the actual bills.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

The Trump defendants (ha, we can say that now) are working with the D or F squad as their legal team.

Yes, one of the most notable things here is how many names are familiar on the prosecutorial side, and how all of the defence affiliated lawyers very much aren't.
posted by jaduncan at 12:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

ApathyGirl, have you met my friend tehHund?
posted by wenestvedt at 12:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

He is... less than persuasive.

When someone says "the Ukraine" they're either an idiot or they believe it belongs to Russia.

Which one is he I wonder, hmmmmmm?
posted by Talez at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

John Boehner (remember him?): “Fuck Jordan. Fuck Chaffetz. They’re both assholes.”
posted by TedW at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

@Olivianuzzi (NYmag DC head)
"Any spin coming from the White House should be discounted," a former Trump aide just told me. "This is very, very bad."
posted by chris24 at 12:40 PM on October 30, 2017 [47 favorites]

Shouldn’t spin be discounted as a matter of course?
posted by double bubble at 12:43 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

When someone says "the Ukraine" they're either an idiot or they believe it belongs to Russia.

Which one is he I wonder, hmmmmmm?

I noticed that as well. Probably both.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:43 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

We need an updated version of that Republication versus Democrat indictment/conviction chart that went around the previous thread... or was it this thread? Can't keep up.
posted by schoolgirl report at 12:43 PM on October 30, 2017

The second thing about this indictment - that I myself find most ridiculous - is the claim that maintaining offshore accounts, to bring all your funds into the United States, as a scheme to conceal from the United States government, is ridiculous.

What is he even saying here?

I think he's trying to say, "if Manafort were trying to hide money from the US government, why would he even bother trying to get that money into the US?"

It's a roundabout way of claiming that Manafort clearly wasn't doing anything illegal, because if he were trying to do so, he'd never have gotten caught. But it seems like really faulty logic.
posted by explosion at 12:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

@bartongellman (Century Foundation)
Mueller may have pitched his message today to specific targets he knows and we don't. Other points, not all obvious, apply more broadly.
1/8 What stands out for me is Mueller's strategic use of implicit threat. Not only the ones he names. Not only against Manafort and Gates.
2/8 Count 35 against Manafort hints at risk of bank fraud charges against his son in law, with potential financial drain on his daughter too.
3/8 Counts 38 & 41 share ominous phrase "together with others." People may fear he's thinking of them & they won't find out in time to deal.
4/8 Mueller's team controlled the selection of facts in the Papadoupolous plea. Three messages, at least, shaped their choice.
5/8 One: Mueller knows things, some of them about Russia, and has proof. He's warning other campaign witnesses against perjury.
6/8 Two: He's not saying exactly what he knows or how. Uncertainty there inspires dread, may flush out evidence he doesn't even know about.
7/8 Three: Early cooperation will save you from the worst. Mueller could have taken a lot harsher approach to the Papadopoulos facts.
8/8 Classic leverage.. He may know what you're hiding. He'll scorch you & yours if you lie. Spill and he'll go easier. Don't wait too long.
posted by chris24 at 12:45 PM on October 30, 2017 [111 favorites]

After a couple of weeks spent trying not to look at political Twitter, I spent the whole day on it today.
posted by Peach at 12:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

The first appearance of both-sides-ism: WaPo breaking news chyron says "Probe shakes both parties as Tony Podesta, whose brother led Hillary Clinton’s campaign, leaves his lobbying firm"

Yeah. I bet the Clinton administration is just shaking in their heels, eh? (/sarcasm)
posted by Dashy at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

I think he's trying to say, "if Manafort were trying to hide money from the US government, why would he even bother trying to get that money into the US?"

It's a roundabout way of claiming that Manafort clearly wasn't doing anything illegal, because if he were trying to do so, he'd never have gotten caught. But it seems like really faulty logic.

"Why would he do that? That would be stupid!" is only a convincing argument when the people in question haven't demonstrated an ongoing tendency to do the stupidest fucking things imaginable.
posted by phearlez at 12:48 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Why did the attorney start off by saying "President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence that Manafort and Trump colluded with Russia." ???

I'm not even sure if I'm answering in jest here, but: it looks like Manafort and his attorney might actually think that the same argument that Trump uses to deflect all criticism ("I never did this, but HILARY AND HER CROOKED BAND OF GOONS SURE DID") will hold up as an affirmative defense in a federal court. Which, um, sure is a leap of faith for Manafort, and will hopefully lead to his attorney being disbarred, in ten years when we've finished sifting through the wreckage of 2017.
posted by Mayor West at 12:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Tom Barrack's real estate firm Colony NorthStar fired Rick Gates after the indictments. Barrack had previously hired Gates to work on the inauguration, and Gates was involved in the transition.
posted by zachlipton at 12:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

My armchair prosecutorial hunch is that Manafort is just gonna get steamrolled because they don't need him to flip to keep busting people higher up the chain.

I am 100% on board with making Manafort the example for others, especially if it leads to some real quality groveling from Stone.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

phearlez: "The really shocking thing about this is that it was not that creepy weird-ass fucking wig shop. No way that place isn't a laundering operation."

There is (or was) another one just two doors down. It really WAS The Wig District!
posted by Chrysostom at 12:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

@Terence Szuplat: "'Who linked to the president is going to get arrested tomorrow?' -- said no one ever during 8 years of Barack Obama."

Well, they said it about Hillary about a billion times, but not because she had done anything arrest-worthy.

As for properly thanking Mueller, can’t we just tweet the FBI and tell them to set up a thing where we can email e-gift cards? You can’t send anthrax over email and then they can buy their own pizza. We could probably keep them stuffed to the gills until the 2020 election.
posted by Autumnheart at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Why did the attorney start off by saying "President Donald Trump was correct."

Maybe President Donald Trump is paying legal fees and fronting bail?
posted by halation at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

There are laws against gift cards. I interviewed someone from the FDA in Cincinnati 1000,000,000 years ago and he could not accept my offer of a cup of coffee, no kidding. Which is part of what infuriates me about the people running the government at the moment, the political appointees. And 45. They are happy to be on the gravy train and are constantly looking for more sources of gravy. But not the actual public servants.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:53 PM on October 30, 2017 [65 favorites]

You can’t send anthrax over email

You've never seen my parent's computers.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:53 PM on October 30, 2017 [38 favorites]

Sarah Kenzidor: On July 27, 2017, while Papadopoulos was being arrested, Twitter was discussing Scaramucci's claim that Bannon can give himself blowjobs
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [75 favorites]

After a couple of weeks spent trying not to look at political Twitter, I spent the whole day on it today.

same but while doing the ed lover dance
posted by poffin boffin at 12:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

It's unfortunate that Company B in the Manafort indictment is named Podesta Group. That doesn't really help with efforts to fight the muddying of waters.
posted by diogenes at 12:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

You can’t send anthrax over email

IAmTheLaw.mp3
posted by ian1977 at 12:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Sarah Kenzidor: On July 27, 2017, while Papadopoulos was being arrested, Twitter was discussing Scaramucci's claim that Bannon can give himself blowjobs

Okay, normally I'd be all like "what idiots we were for not paying attention to the right thing" but honestly that was a hilarious day and I regret nothing.
posted by greermahoney at 12:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [91 favorites]

Full indictment document
posted by slipthought

Ok, that is a lot of off-shore shell companies, right there...which is making me think we're missing a big piece of the puzzle here: the "Panama Papers"...IIRC, those are publicly available, no? Are there any computer-savvy mefites here (of course there are) who have access to those papers? I for one would be really interested in seeing what a CTRL-F of $(shady Manafort shell companies) turns up, and if there's any relationship to $(shady Trump shell companies)(i.e. pretty much any Trump company)...because my guess would be that that is where this investigation goes next. Anyone want to wade in and do some digging while I pop some more popped corn? Anyone?
posted by sexyrobot at 12:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

This latest round of pushing a false distraction narrative with FUSION GPS CLINTON URANIUM WHARRGARBL was clearly in preparation for all of this but started a couple weeks ago, and I have to wonder how the GOP spin machine heard about it then.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:00 PM on October 30, 2017

With a username like that you're going to have to offer more than popcorn.
posted by elsietheeel at 1:00 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

As for properly thanking Mueller, can’t we just tweet the FBI and tell them to set up a thing where we can email e-gift cards?

It's worth remembering that the FBI has a track record of targeting Americans with mental health issues in terrorism stings. I'm grateful for at the least appearance of the rule of law here, but perhaps let's direct our gratitude to organizations that deserve it.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

I have to wonder how the GOP spin machine heard about it then.

I saw some inferences that at least some of the rumble was due to observing certain people at the clerk's office, filing papers and whatnot.
posted by rhizome at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2017

Non-Mueller news:

NYT: Trump Is Expected to Name Jerome Powell as Next Fed Chairman

I believe the educated take on this is: it would have been better to leave Yellen, but Powell is much better than the other choice, John Taylor.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Defense attorneys and the indicted would be aware.
posted by chris24 at 1:04 PM on October 30, 2017

Papadopoulos is like a mobster they introduce in the beginning of the season of the Sopranos. We've never heard of him until now but it turns out he's been a part of the crime family the whole time and you know he's going to be a problem for the main characters. He's this season's Ralphie/Richie/Tony B.
posted by cmfletcher at 1:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

When someone says "the Ukraine" they're either an idiot or they believe it belongs to Russia.

Or, to be far more generous than is warranted in this particular instance, they learned their geopolitical vocabulary before the breakup of the Soviet Union and haven't quite broken all their bad linguistic habits. I don't think you would call Barack Obama in 2014 an idiot or a Russian stooge.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

The Panama Papers don't have have a lot to say about Cyprus, which seems to have been Manafort's country of choice, based on the indictment. You can search the database, but I'm not seeing anything for the offshort entities listed in the Manafort indictment.

I'd presume though that Mueller has addresses and other details and could be searching on those instead of just names.
posted by zachlipton at 1:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Note: Mueller left the FBI in 2013 and has been in the private sector since then. He was appointed by Deputy Attorney Rod Rosenstein and is serving as Special Counsel for the Department of Justice.
posted by elsietheeel at 1:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

ApathyGirl, have you met my friend tehHund?

I'm *so* perpetually behind and out of the political threads that I was all [??confused_dog_head_tilt??] and I didn't get it so I searched and yes, exactly but with an order of magnitude more MEH and now the joke's gone eponysterecursive..
posted by ApathyGirl at 1:07 PM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

When someone says "the Ukraine" they're either an idiot or they believe it belongs to Russia.

Or, to be far more generous than is warranted in this particular instance, they learned their geopolitical vocabulary before the breakup of the Soviet Union and haven't quite broken all their bad linguistic habits. I don't think you would call Barack Obama in 2014 an idiot or a Russian stooge.

They might also be quoting their favorite Seinfeld bit.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:09 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'm *so* perpetually behind and out of the political threads that ... I didn't get it

Don't worry. I'm here all the time, and I still don't get it.
posted by diogenes at 1:09 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

CNN says both Manafort and Gates will remain under house arrest until trial, expected to take at least six months. 😊
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:09 PM on October 30, 2017 [58 favorites]

Has anyone started a timeline tracking the details of the indictment statements etc. with the campaign trail last year? What near-incomprehensible bits did Trump put in his speeches that tied into the behind-the-scenes Russia connections?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

According to Yahoo:

But [the court records] quote one unidentified campaign “supervisor” as emailing him in August 2016 that “I would encourage you” to make a trip to Moscow to arrange such a meeting. A Trump campaign source identified the supervisor as Sam Clovis, a conservative radio host who was co-chairman of the campaign. Another “high ranking” official — identified by the source as campaign chairman Paul Manafort — received an email from Papadopoulos saying that “Russia has been eager to meet Mr. Trump for quite some time and has been reaching out to me to discuss.” Manafort forwarded that email to his associate Richard Gates and wrote: “Let’s discuss. We need someone to communicate that DT is not doing these trips. It should be someone low level in the campaign so as not to send any signal.” (Some of these emails were quoted in a Washington Post story this past August that first identified Clovis, Manafort and Gates as the campaign officials who sent and received them.)

Clovis is the current nominee for undersecretary of agriculture.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [51 favorites]

geermahoney: Sarah Kenzidor: On July 27, 2017, while Papadopoulos was being arrested, Twitter was discussing Scaramucci's claim that Bannon can give himself blowjobs

Okay, normally I'd be all like "what idiots we were for not paying attention to the right thing" but honestly that was a hilarious day and I regret nothing.

Wasn't the arrest secret or something? At least, all the information he gave has only just come to light. There wouldn't have been much to discuss at the time, no?

zachlipton: Tom Barrack's real estate firm Colony NorthStar fired Rick Gates after the indictments. Barrack had previously hired Gates to work on the inauguration, and Gates was involved in the transition.

Now bracing for Trump tweeting that this makes Barrack Obbama all the more guilty. And he'll just double down on insisting they're the same person.

diogenes: It's unfortunate that Company B in the Manafort indictment is named Podesta Group. That doesn't really help with efforts to fight the muddying of waters.

Alexandra Erin has got that talking point well-covered in her tweet-thread about all this.
posted by InTheYear2017 at 1:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Throwaway comment from /r/politics:

I was told there would be meltdown tweets. I want to see meltdown tweets

posted by sebastienbailard at 1:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

"What's all this about monkey laundering? There's nothing wrong with keeping your monkey clean, and if someone wants to take the little critter to the laundromat to make sure it's extra clean then there's no crime th...what? It's what? Oh, nevermind."
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Surely this.
posted by hijinx at 12:26 PM on October 30 [2 favorites +] [!]

...aaaannndd now you've you've jinxed it.
posted by Paul Slade at 1:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Anyone remember William H. Macy's final scene in Fargo?

I'm hoping that's about how quietly Sessions will go, if and when they get him.

I'm recalling one of the later scenes in "Dave" where Chief of Staff Bob Alexander is in his living room gleefully awaiting the SOTU with a group of cheery supporters in one scene, and then after Dave confesses to crimes during the SOTU and implicates Bob as well, we cut back to Bob's living room and all the people have left, leaving him alone with the balloons and spent confetti.
posted by darkstar at 1:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

This is a nice summary of where we stand from David Corn:

The bottom-line: with the encouragement and knowledge of his Trump campaign supervisors, Papadopoulos tried to set up a private back-channel between the Trump campaign & Russia when it was known Putin was attacking the US election.
posted by diogenes at 1:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

If trying to set up a private back-channel between the Trump campaign and Russia is now considered a bad thing, Jared might be in some trouble.
posted by diogenes at 1:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

> The bottom-line: with the encouragement and knowledge of his Trump campaign supervisors, Papadopoulos tried to set up a private back-channel between the Trump campaign & Russia when it was known Putin was attacking the US election.

No puppet, no puppet, you're the puppet.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: "CNN says both Manafort and Gates will remain under house arrest until trial, expected to take at least six months. 😊"

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
posted by Chrysostom at 1:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: WSJ—FBI Is Probing Puerto Rico Power Contract

Pairing of corruption and stupidity in this gang of misfits is amazing. They seem to believe they can get away with anything regardless of how obvious a thing it is, so they make no effort to conceal their grift. I bet they are shocked when they're found out.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Oh hey, only 715 new comments since I had to submerge myself in work at 9:00 am, so I guess nothin' much happened today. *cackles*

But I checked out MSNBC for a few minutes before even glancing at MeFi, so . . . yeah. Papo-fuckin-dopoulos, man! Mueller makes all these other trifling scoop o'clockers look like total pikers! You go Bob! We're not worthy!

And now I shall go review the 715 comments with great pleasure and (dill) relish.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Meanwhile, Paul and Rick have pled not guilty.

Not that familiar with usual FBI tactics, but I heard lots of chatter earlier today that the FBI would probably try to 'flip' Manafort and that's why he was the first indictment. Does Manafort pleading Not Guilty exclude that possibility, or is it common for suspects to 'flip' (or go for a plea-bargain or whatever) even after an initial not-guilty plea?
posted by memebake at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2017

> Bret Stephens went there this week in his column, drawing a line from Stalin to Bernie Sanders for some inexplicable reason.

The New Red-Baiting: Establishment pundits like Bret Stephens are trying to revive the Cold War, using the sloppiest of anti-left arguments.
posted by homunculus at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Does Manafort pleading Not Guilty exclude that possibility, or is it common for suspects to 'flip' (or go for a plea-bargain or whatever) even after an initial not-guilty plea?

Most people plead not guilty at their first appearance, and ultimately plead guilty. It's totally possible. Not guilty pleas right now are to be expected.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

His twitter has been too quiet for too long and were this a movie I would expect a jump scare.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Reads to end of thread over a 30 minute session. Whew.

Notices "368 new comments..."
posted by zippy at 1:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

Breaking news: Trump May Not Seek Re-election: Rand Paul, Chris Christie
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:28 PM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

Is this the fastest-moving thread ever, timewise?
posted by Melismata at 1:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

CNN says both Manafort and Gates will remain under house arrest...

Well, that makes them awfully easy for Putin's people to find.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Talez: Stolen from Twitter: #MAGA = Many Are Getting Arrested

Let's workshop this a bit. How about #MAGA = May All Get Arrested?
posted by filthy light thief at 9:55 AM on October 30 [12 favorites +] [!]

Well, this is MetaFilter, so

"MAGA Are Getting Arrested"
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:30 PM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

Breaking news: Trump May Not Seek Re-election: Rand Paul, Chris Christie

Sheer speculation, and not coming from the inner circle, but it's nice to have out there.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:31 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

tivalasvegas: Also: every fucking commercial on this network is a scam

Speaks poorly of the apparent ~~targets~~ audience of Fox News.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2017

Breaking news: Trump May Not Seek Re-election: Rand Paul, Chris Christie

i am so full of popcorn right now that i am mister creosote from monty python's meaning of life and the internet is the maitre d
posted by entropicamericana at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2017 [68 favorites]

From sebastienbailard's link above, Trump may not seek re-election:

[Chris] Christie added, "Four years is a long time, and especially for someone who has not spent a lifetime in politics, so I think those years affect him differently. So I'm sure the president will make whatever decision is best for him and his family and the country.”
Trump, who hates losing, may be exploring his options for a graceful exit that can be framed as a win.

Him and us, buddy. Him and us. And yeah, the graceful exit was two months ago.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

If Trump resigns or declines to run or is impeached, I am going to give such a party. It'll make the big rock candy mountain look like a declining Chuck E Cheese. I'll be drunk for a week and we'll live off leftovers for a month. I'm going to cash out a stack of fives and tens and hand them out to everyone who asks me for money on the street. I'm going to order ten pizzas and sit on the stoop and offer pizza to every passer-by. I'll cross state lines to get dubiously legal fireworks and set them off in the middle of the road until the cops show up. Oh, believe you me, I'll give a party that will stop the presses on the neighborhood rag.
posted by Frowner at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2017 [172 favorites]

MAGA = Manafort And Gates Arrested, surely? (via r/politics)
posted by memebake at 1:33 PM on October 30, 2017 [30 favorites]

And cake too, I hope.
posted by Melismata at 1:33 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I was told there would be meltdown tweets. I want to see meltdown tweets

Slate: Fox News Has Spent All Day Begging Donald Trump Not to Tweet About the Mueller Indictments
posted by teraflop at 1:34 PM on October 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

From sebastienbailard's link above, Trump may not seek re-election:

Senator Rand Paul said Sunday night that even though the president is raising millions for a 2020 campaign, Republicans should not assume he's running.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

So, getting back to the breaking of this story, turns out that the 2-1/2 day near-silence on this story from the NYT and WaPo was not due to them holding back while they prepared a more deeply researched piece, but simply a legit inability to verify the story. I'm just burning with curiosity as to how CNN, Reuters, and (I think?) NBC were able to independently verify but the NYT and WaPo were not.
posted by HotToddy at 1:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

We need to make sure this is a Republican scandal, not a Trump scandal. They're all complicit. Yes, even our new friends Jeff Flake and John McCain and Susan Collins and Bob Corker. If Trump is forced out, or steps aside, they will blame everything on him and keep on destroying our democracy, because the Trump agenda is the Republican agenda.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [66 favorites]

i am so full of popcorn right now that i am mister creosote from monty python's meaning of life and the internet is the maitre d

the veneer of civilization is only wafer thin
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [71 favorites]

Breaking news: Trump May Not Seek Re-election: Rand Paul, Chris Christie

Sheer speculation, and not coming from the inner circle, but it's nice to have out there.

Now I can't help but wonder *why* it's out there. To nerf the donations he's been soliciting from the faithful (that he's going to use to pay his legal fees)?
posted by halation at 1:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'm trying to find an old comment in a politics thread (hah!) about a twitter thread that talked about the Mueller investigation; it mentioned that they were in "stage 1" of 9, which was the longest, "gathering evidence," and indictments were stage 2 or 3 and it all moves much faster from there.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

i am so full of popcorn right now that i am mister creosote from monty python's meaning of life and the internet is the maitre d
posted by entropicamericana at 1:32 PM on October 30 [7 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

listen, i kind of love you
posted by palomar at 1:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Today might be the first time in 8.5 years that I have ever worried about hitting the favorite limit...
posted by elsietheeel at 1:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Why did the attorney start off by saying "President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence that Manafort and Trump colluded with Russia." ???

Because his client & he are both in thrall to a malignant narcissist. His needs don't only come before theirs but satisfying his whims & urges replaces their needs.
posted by scalefree at 1:40 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Now I can't help but wonder *why* it's out there. To nerf the donations he's been soliciting from the faithful (that he's going to use to pay his legal fees)?

Or, more simply, maybe they all just can't stand him anymore?
posted by Melismata at 1:40 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I'm sad because I have a feeling Stephen Miller will walk away from this unscathed. I'm holding out hope that there's a way to deport Gorka. De-gorka, if you will.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

YOU WILL NOT GET RID OF THE DRAGON OF BUDAPEST THAT EASILY, MISTER CHAPO
posted by entropicamericana at 1:43 PM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Rust Moranis: why did the attorney start off by saying "President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence that Manafort and Trump colluded with Russia." ???

halation: Maybe President Donald Trump is paying legal fees and fronting bail?

lalex: HAHAHAHHAHAHAHALLLLLLLLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLSNORTCRYINGLAUGHING

Well, it could be true, indirectly: Trump Is Using Republican Donors’ Money to Pay His Legal Bills -- In August alone, the billionaire received more than $400,000 from the Republican National Convention for his defense in the Russia investigation. (Abigail Tracy for Vanity Fair, Sept. 20, 2017)

CNN reported Tuesday that in August alone, the R.N.C. spent more than $230,000 on Trump’s legal defense—$131,250 and $100,000 to the president’s personal attorneys Jay Sekulow and John Dowd, respectively. The organization also spent just shy of $200,000 on legal fees for Donald Trump Jr., an executive at the Trump Organization. According to CNN, the R.N.C. paid more than $166,000 to the eldest Trump son’s attorney Alan Futerfas and $30,000 to the Williams & Jensen firm. All of the money put toward the Trumps’ legal funds was pulled from the organization’s legal proceedings account, so the funds “do not reduce by a dime the resources we can put towards our political work,” R.N.C. spokesperson Cassie Smedile told Reuters.

Trump could be funneling money to cover other people's legal fees now.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

I'm reminded of the Hemingway line about going bankrupt slowly, then all at once. One minute you are on top of the world, everyone is paying fealty to you. A few cracks appear, then a few more, then suddenly no one will have the first thing to do with you.

Nixon was still holding out hope that he could ride things out until very late in the game, by the by.
posted by Chrysostom at 1:45 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

I remember when the Rob Ford mega-threads were crushing my productivity and that of other Canadians. I am happy for my southron cousins on this day, and wish you all a speedy end to your nightmare.
posted by LegallyBread at 1:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [53 favorites]

for his defense in the Russia investigation

If you think a dime of that is going to go to defend anyone not named Trump...
posted by elsietheeel at 1:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: CNN says both Manafort and Gates will remain under house arrest until trial, expected to take at least six months.

OK, now this makes more sense:

zachlipton: Daily Beast reports on Paul Manafort’s Frantic Brooklyn Brownstone Renovation, in which Manafort paid cash up front for last-minute emergency renovations to his Brooklyn place.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

This tax analogy is torture.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:37 AM on October 30 [11 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

She thinks this is a valid analogy, because she thinks we all get the same size beer.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

Does anyone else hear Danzig's "Mother" in their head every time they think about Pence?
posted by Tarumba at 1:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

i think of ruprecht: "Not Mother?"
posted by entropicamericana at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

At some point the Republicans will be willing to toss Trump overboard; it's not like Pence and Ryan will be any less enthusiastic about tax cuts for their rich donors. The issues for them are first how many others of the Republican powers-that-be might also be vulnerable and second how much trouble the Trump cultists will give them. As long as the money and TV time gets cut off from said cultists they can be ignored, but that requires getting Fox, Mercer, and Putin on board, and communicating to Putin that he'll get his Magnitsky Act repeal as long as he turns the hackers and disinformation factories against Trump might be legally tricky.
posted by tavella at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Does anyone else hear Danzig's "Mother" in their head every time they think about Pence?
I do now.

Asshole.
posted by teleri025 at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

I didn't see this posted yet: Judge's order [pdf] compelling a "witness" (Manafort's attorney) to testify has been unsealed:

This is a matter of national importance. The United States, through the Special Counsel’s Office (“SCO”), is investigating foreign interference in the 2016 presidential election and potential collusion in those efforts by American citizens. The SCO has uncovered evidence that Target 1 [Manafort], who was associated with the campaign of one presidential candidate—now the President—and Target 2 [Gates], who was Target 1’s employee (collectively, “the Targets”) at Target Company [DMP International, LLC], may have concealed from the government the extent of their lobbying actions on behalf of a foreign government and foreign officials, in violation of federal criminal laws, by submitting two letters through their former counsel, the Witness, containing false and misleading information to the U.S. Department of Justice (“DOJ”).

The order discusses work product and attorney-client privilege issues; portions are redacted.
posted by melissasaurus at 1:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Breaking news: Trump May Not Seek Re-election: Rand Paul, Chris Christie

Awww...if he's not impeached or indicted, I want him to run again. I want to see the GOP and their billionaire backers spend a billion dollars to try to re-elect him, and then have the US electorate hand him his hat and kick him in the ass.

I want him to be seen to be as big a loser as he actually is. When right-wingers crow about sincere Christian, humanitarian Carter being a one-termer, I think it'd be nice to shove venally corrupt, racist, sexist Trump down their whiny, lying little gobs.
posted by darkstar at 1:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

I want him to run again.

On the one hand, I feel you... on the other, I've already gone through one election absolutely positive the citizens of this country would never elect such an odious, malignant, profoundly stupid person. And was so very, very wrong. Let's not tempt fate again, please. Fool me once...
posted by Roommate at 1:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [139 favorites]

Does anyone else hear Danzig's "Mother" in their head every time they think about Pence?

I think of the classic beloved timeless meme, "hot food for mother"
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I want him to run again.

On the one hand, I feel you... on the other, I've already gone through one election absolutely positive the citizens of this country would never elect such an odious, malignant, profoundly stupid person. And was so very, very wrong. Let's not tempt fate again, please. Fool me once...

Fair point.
posted by darkstar at 1:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Tarumba: I think of The Police's "Mother" myself, but that might just be because of the naked crazy.
posted by sldownard at 1:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Meanwhile, there's an attempt to ratchet back Authorization for the Use of Military Force - AUMF - that was passed after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks (NPR, Oct. 30, 2017)

"They've used it now to go after dozens of organizations in many many countries around the world in ways that I think are frankly completely unsupported by that authorization," [Sen. Tim Kaine, D-Va.,] says. "We shouldn't be at war without a vote of Congress."

Monday, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee will hear from Defense Secretary James Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson regarding the use of AUMF.

posted by filthy light thief at 1:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

It's worth remembering that the FBI has a track record of targeting Americans with mental health issues in terrorism stings. I'm grateful for at the least appearance of the rule of law here, but perhaps let's direct our gratitude to organizations that deserve it.

Yeah I didn't bother to address it because the devil has all his advocates already, but way up top someone quoted one of the multitudes of morons

Lewandowski added Monday, referring to Manafort: “He was under a FISA warrant, supposedly, both before and after his tenure at the campaign, and the FBI never notified the leading presidential candidate for a major Republican party race? Never notified him of a potential problem? This is a problem with the FBI if you ask me.”

And you know, in a perfect world? Maybe law enforcement agencies like the FBI would be more concerned with doing things to minimize crime and avoid the creeping sleaze and they wouldn't prioritize massive sweeps of arrests. But then they probably wouldn't spend more time creating massive fake terrorist conspiracies with clueless dipshits rather than pursuing more legitimate threats. But that's not the agency they are (and let's be serious; an agency that drops in on people's places of work and says "you know you might reconsider employing this person..." is probably worse than one which keeps its investigations to itself) and pretending they should treat this person differently than everyone else is pretty gross.
posted by phearlez at 1:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Okay, what about this: Trump says he's not going to run again, then decides to run mid-way through, announces it via 3am tweet and completely fucks up the Republican slate? That sounds a bit like something he'd do.
posted by Frowner at 1:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

I didn't see this posted yet: Judge's order [pdf] compelling a "witness" (Manafort's attorney) to testify has been unsealed:

Internet lawyers are saying this is a big deal.
posted by PenDevil at 1:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

posted by filthy light thief at 1:56 PM on October 30 [+] You hit your favorite limit for the day. [!]

CURSES!

But also aww, I'm so proud (?) of myself.
posted by elsietheeel at 1:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

*SNORT*

@Popehat
Hard to overstate how big and unusual and aggressive that is. Mueller ain't playing beanbag.

@scalzi
Sure he is. He's just using these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean_bag_round
posted by elsietheeel at 2:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

No Pink Floyd "Mother?" I mean...

Mother should I build the wall?
Mother should I run for President?
Mother should I trust the government?
Mother will they put me in the firing line?
Oooh ahh,
Is it just a waste of time?

Hush now baby, baby don't you cry.
Mama's gonna check out all your girlfriends for you.
Mama won't let anyone dirty get through.
Mama's gonna wait up until you get in.
Mama will always find out where you've been....

This thread has ruined my productivity today, but lightened my mood by a lot. I'm not assuming anything will be ok, but seeing any of these fuckers face any real prosecution at all is a breath of fresh air.
posted by emjaybee at 2:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

this seems big and important but I don't know what it means!

If a judge thinks that your lawyer is helping you commit a crime, attorney-client privilege is out the window.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 2:03 PM on October 30, 2017 [63 favorites]

Re: Mother as a song - Pink Floyd's version - the one whose first line is, "Mother do you think they'll drop the bomb?" is also fine, and will suffice.

On preview - shakes fist at emjaybee ;-)
posted by mosk at 2:03 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

@popehat: "hfs, Mueller got a judge to find a waiver of Manafort's attorney-client privilege under the crime-fraud exception" (ling to doc in tweet)

this seems big and important but I don't know what it means!

Wow. It means Manafort's attorney should consider himself also a target, and needs his own attorney, like, now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:03 PM on October 30, 2017 [50 favorites]

Sarah HS is such a warm, affable presence, innit?
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

A while back, Manafort's attorney was subpoenaed, and we speculated that it might be under the crime-fraud exception. This appears to confirm those facts.
posted by melissasaurus at 2:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

There's nothing you can do when you're the next in line. You've got to go, domino.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

The order compelling the attorney to testify repeatedly uses the pronouns "she" and "her" so I would guess it is Melissa Laurenza as identified in the link posted by melissasaurus.
posted by Aubergine at 2:07 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Could Manafort's attorney be DQ'd from representing him?
posted by yasaman at 2:07 PM on October 30, 2017

There's nothing you can do when you're the next in line. You've got to go, domino.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:06 PM on October 30 [+] [!]

NO! NOT FATS!

.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Senator Rand Paul said Sunday night that even though the president is raising millions for a 2020 campaign, Republicans should not assume he's running.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, can't a candidate pretty much pocket and walk away with campaign donations?
posted by Thorzdad at 2:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

CNN says both Manafort and Gates will remain under house arrest until trial, expected to take at least six months.

And they both got to turn themselves in rather than be arrested, cuffed, and perp walked.

I'm not particularly happy at the display of the two tiered system of American Justice on display here. They're rich and white and sure, maybe, possibly, they'll actually go to prison. But a black dude accused of petty theft would already have been treated vastly more harshly and would have been at risk of being shot by triggerhappy cops during his arrest, and possibly beaten during his arrest while the cops screamed "stop resisting" if they wanted the fun of beating up a black guy.

Meanwhile these two can sell out the country to a hostile foreign power and they'e asked politely to turn themselves in, and they aren't kept in prison until their trial they get to stay in their mansions instead.

I don't want rich white dudes subjected to the abuses black men are, I want black men given the treatment afforded rich white dudes.
posted by sotonohito at 2:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [169 favorites]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, can't a candidate pretty much pocket and walk away with campaign donations?

No, but there's huge latitude in how those funds are used. Can't put em straight into your pocket (honestly, anyway) but "campaign activities" is a pretty widely defined term. And election law enforcement is in this shitter.
posted by phearlez at 2:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

i want to see him run but it's running from velociraptors, they're real and not cgi, they're very hungry

he's slow
posted by poffin boffin at 2:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

snik snik go their jaws
posted by Frowner at 2:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

So three weeks ago I commented:

speaking as someone who's studied television, we are in season 2 already. Hurricane Maria was the season finale .... In about 6 weeks there will be a big public revelation in one of the criminal cases, that is both salacious and mindblowing but not meaningful enough to wrap up all the plot threads, followed by the mid-season break.

The Arpaio/DACA episode was the season 2 premiere. Now we're in the midseason finale - I think it's gonna be a two-parter. In about a week there will be another shot across the bow, so to speak, from Mueller. Then things will quiet down for the holidays and we'll start up again in January.

I'm joking but I'm also not. I do not like having a TV president. I don't like reality fitting a narrative cycle this neatly.

That's a serious prediction, by the way. I think in a week or two there will be another indictment. As a way of telling everyone that Mueller hasn't shot his load - that he's serious about it, and there's more to come - and to keep it in the conversation over the holidays. I think there actually will be a holiday break of sorts, because Trump is so totally unfit enough to think that presidents get holidays off, and Mueller's team has a lot of work to do still.

If Mueller really is taking aim at the president .... he has to be thinking about the will of the public. I'm sure of it. He has to be thinking about civil unrest. Not that that's an overriding concern, but one reason to slowroll it past the holidays is to give us all time to build consensus, and get to a point where we can collectively accept the results of his investigation.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 2:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [48 favorites]

Good God, this thread is like Zeno's Paradox, every time I try to get to the end I've only made it halfway. (385 new -- 217 new -- 95 new -- 47 new -- 20 new -- 9 new -- 5 new -- 2 new ...)

"Watching these things makes me so angry. What happened to this person to make them do this job?"

The fact that SHS is employed as a full-time liar tells you everything you need to know about the Huckabees' brand of Christianity and how much they care about ginning up outrage about liberals taking down the 10 commandments and whatnot.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [78 favorites]

Yeah, exactly, sotonohito. Like I said on Twitter:

Me: America's bail system undermines fundamental fairness and justice .
Also Me: Reads about Manafort's $10 million bail on the CNN chyron at work and cackles manically in a very non-professional way.

I think the difference is with me is that as long as we've got a shitty system, I want these assholes to suffer as much as possible. I am not proud of this, and, honestly hold that against Trump administration too.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

With respect to the planned questions to the Witness before the grand jury, the SCO
stated that the witness would be asked “narrow questions to confirm the source of the facts she submitted to the government, including whether her clients gave her the information represented in the letter as coming from them and/or reviewed a draft of the letter for accuracy.”

So basically, are you incompetent or are you dirty?
posted by elsietheeel at 2:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

I don't want rich white dudes subjected to the abuses black men are, I want black men given the treatment afforded rich white dudes.

shialeboeufclapping.gif
posted by greermahoney at 2:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Good God, this thread is like Zeno's Paradox

*tweeeeet* flag on the play, recycling joke you already used in the company slack, twenty comment penalty
posted by cortex at 2:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [94 favorites]

I'm sad because I have a feeling Stephen Miller will walk away from this unscathed. I'm holding out hope that there's a way to deport Gorka. De-gorka, if you will.

Surely you mean Gorksit? (or maybe Gorxit?)
posted by Tabitha Someday at 2:15 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Could Manafort's attorney be DQ'd from representing him?

Yes, or more importantly, charged herself. If not charged and called as a witness, or even the likelihood of being called, she would be smart to just recuse, but if she didn't (inexplicably) the prosecution would file a motion to disqualify counsel.
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:16 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Also there's a lot of stuff that is still redacted in that memo, which means there's still SO SO SO SO SO much left to come.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

ugh i need a script to autorefresh and read aloud to me this thread whilst i grind for arcade loot boxes
posted by poffin boffin at 2:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

I think that Stone and Page are the next names which are going to come out. Page is an idiot and while he may know a few things, they probably can get what they need elsewhere and will nail him for all his various stuff whenever they need to apply a bit more pressure. So I think it will be Stone who comes up next. Maybe Flynn after that.

If it's going higher than that, to possibly include Trump himself, then the big targets ultimately will be one or more of Sessions, Kushner, or Don Jr.

The thing is, though Papadopoulos is relatively small-time himself, he directly incriminates the big guys. And Manafort + Gates is actually right up in there. So they mostly have left to spread sideways and then up to the showstoppers.

It's significant to me that today's news both shows Mueller's methodicalness and tight-ship and how hard he's hitting with his first punch.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 2:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

Disengorkage? Gorkectomy?
posted by mosk at 2:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

George Papadopoulos is the Greek equivalent of Joe Smith in terms of frequency. I mean the writers could at least try a bit.

It’s a lot better than “Andy Techmanski” [real] as CEO of the company with the contract to fix Puerto Rico’s electrical system. I mean, a handy, technical man, who was obviously going to end up as a Russian plant. I guess that story has been wrapped up now, though.

But the generic Greek name is interesting because there was an earlier story hook that looks like it was laying the ground for a storyline about a link between Russian Orthodox monks in Greece and their mysterious island fortress: What is behind Vladimir Putin’s curious interest in Mount Athos? [real]

Anyway, the way the main story arc is progressing leads me to think that we’re reaching the end of a season and the writers don’t expect the show that be renewed. We can only hope so.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

For anybody playing along the law firm prestige game, Melissa L. Laurenza is a partner at DC heavyweight Akin Gump.

And like, the year end collections HAVE YOU GOTTEN YOUR CLIENT TO WIRE US THE MONEY YET?????? hounding, followed by direct calls from firm management if you haven't, is gonna be so awkward. So awkward.

For anybody keeping track, Ty Cobb was at Akin Gump before retiring.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

SEVEN DAYS AND A WAKEUP VIRGINIA

no really i know there's some of you here in this commonwealth. c'mon, guys. when are you gonna come help get out the vote? i'm calling y'all RIGHT NOW. pick up.

(also i am delighted by all of this and i wish i had time to look, like, at all. but lol i do not. someone please bring me a cake.)
posted by dogheart at 2:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

All of the money put toward the Trumps’ legal funds was pulled from the organization’s legal proceedings account, so the funds “do not reduce by a dime the resources we can put towards our political work,” R.N.C. spokesperson Cassie Smedile told Reuters.

WaPo has more details on that "legal proceedings account:"

The party's legal account was created by a 2014 spending measure, one of a trio of new accounts slipped into an end-of-the-year bill that dramatically expanded how much wealthy individuals could give to the national parties. Donors are permitted to give triple the amount to the special accounts than they can contribute to the party's main political fund.

Under the law, money for the legal account is to be “used to defray expenses incurred with respect to the preparation for and the conduct of election recounts and contests and other legal proceedings.’’ [my emphasis]

I think the RNC is taking an extremely expansive view of "other legal proceedings," but I'm not sure there's anyone with both the standing and inclination to challenge them on that.

As of June 11th of last year, the account (popularly called the "recount fund") may have stood at about $5 million dollars, according to the boasts of an RNC committeewoman. I couldn't find a more recent estimate of its size, but if it's within the same order of magnitude, then Trump and co.'s expenses may drain it faster than increasingly impatient donors can top it off. (And of course, every dollar spent on Trump's lawyers is a dollar that can't fund frivolous electoral challenges, so that's gravy.)
posted by Iridic at 2:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

"*tweeeeet* flag on the play, recycling joke you already used in the company slack, twenty comment penalty"

But ... but ... I get more favorites here!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [72 favorites]

Not Flynn?

They don't need anything from Flynn. He's small potatoes, and Manafort is his puppetmaster.

One reason Flynn may not be mentioned is that Flynn may have already talked to Mueller. We just don't know it yet.
posted by jonp72 at 2:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

SORRY MISREAD TY COBB WAS AT HOGAN LOVELLS

PLEASE CONTINUE YOUR DAY
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

So ... I'm ruminating a bit here: What happens now?

I was worried before that Muellermas might be a bust, with an indictment for Manafort and a censure for Flynn and that's all he wrote. But the guilty plea from Papadopoulos - in the can from months ago! - changes my estimation of where things are. Especially the way the news was released: the indictments, the "no collusion!" tweets, and then the very understated but unmistakable message to Manafort and his as-yet unindicted co-conspirators that others around them might already have cut plea deals and be wearing wires... I think everyone who has ever had a topical conversation with Papadopoulos is anxiously checking their calendars against the guilty plea timeline.

So what happens to tax cuts and Repeal & GFY? Ryan and McConnell's stated intention was to have a tax bill on Trump's desk in December. Oddly enough, one of the things that came out of the weekend's temper tantrum stories is that the Trump inner circle expected possible indictments, but only around Christmas. It sounds to me like the puppet masters had decided that the Trump administration had a limited useful lifetime, and they were going to squeeze in a deficit-busting gargantuan tax cut before it went to shit. After that, I guess the deficit would be blamed on "Trump was never a true Republican anyway" and used as a cudgel to further cut the useful things that the Federal government does, following the usual "starve the beast" theory.

But now, financial crimes and lying on tax forms play a starring role in these earlier-than-expected indictments, and the guilty plea puts collusion front and center. Does Ryan keep his head down and hope that Trump still has a working pen come December? Can Trump really get by without releasing his own taxes while Congress debates a tax bill, even as money laundering is in the news? (Because I know Trump will never voluntarily release his taxes.)

It feels like the clown car just drove off the cliff in slow motion - it's still in the air, the clowns are tumbling out, but what happens when it hits the ground is not obvious to me.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [66 favorites]

But why wouldn't such a person just perjure themselves, confident that they'd be pardoned for that as well?

You'd have to pardon every single act of perjury (future acts aren't covered)

Less this, I think, than the awareness that relying on Trump to support them in the case of a conviction for perjury isn't a solid plan for future happines. I'm sure several people are sweating and hoping for presidential pardons in case they get dragged in, but hope isn't the same as certainty.

They know damn well the president is capable of deciding, "fuck that guy; he was never very good at his job anyway."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Senator Rand Paul said Sunday night that even though the president is raising millions for a 2020 campaign, Republicans should not assume he's running.

On the other hand, it would be just like Trump to raise the money for running a 2020 campaign, skim the money off for himself, but be too lazy to do the actual campaign.
posted by jonp72 at 2:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Speaking of lazy writers...who hires a lawyer from a firm called Gump?
posted by elsietheeel at 2:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

They don't need anything from Flynn. He's small potatoes, and Manafort is his puppetmaster.

Moscow Mike is a legit Russian spy, that's got to be worth something?
posted by Artw at 2:28 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

So what happens to tax cuts and Repeal & GFY?

We need to call our elected representatives at least once a week to remind them that this administration is fundamentally compromised, and they cannot send any non-urgent legislation to the president for a signature until the investigation is over and we can be sure he's not a Russian agent. He can sign the things that are necessary to keep the lights on. No judges get appointed. No new legislation gets passed.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [48 favorites]

For anybody playing along the law firm prestige game, Melissa L. Laurenza is a partner at DC heavyweight Akin Gump.

"Before serving at the FEC, Ms. Laurenza worked for several years for Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-KY) first in his office on Capitol Hill and later under his chairmanship at the National Republican Senatorial Committee."
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:30 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Comey is now fully un-anonymous on Twitter
posted by neroli at 2:31 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

sotonohito: I don't want rich white dudes subjected to the abuses black men are, I want black men given the treatment afforded rich white dudes.

So very well put, thank you.

Speaking of racial disparity, and the blindness to it: In Shelbyville, Tenn., 'Proud To Be White' And 'Hate Is Not The Solution' (NPR, Oct. 30, 2017)

David Greene traveled to Shelbyville, Tenn., to see how the White Lives Matter rally was experienced by two very different people in the small town.

In which NPR does those portraying themselves as "put-upon white folks who simply want to be left alone" absolutely no favors, while interviewing an immigrant who is (mostly) living the American dream of a better life for his kids.

CNN has some visual context for the Shelbyville protest and counter-protest, which didn't march on to Murfreesboro, because it was a "lawsuit trap" and that holding an event there was not worth the risk. (Warning: auto-playing video, where the reporter says violence only arises from the racist rallies when Antifa are present, which is stated as fact, but that smells like some pretty ripe bullshit, with Charlottesville as a counter-example, if nothing else.)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:32 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Maybe he's a changed man. Jesus god what a disservice he did to his country. [ETA: Comey]
posted by Frowner at 2:32 PM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, can't a candidate pretty much pocket and walk away with campaign donations?

Colbert had election-law lawyer Trevor Potter explain exactly how Super PACs and 501(c)(4) organizations allow campaigns to get around coordination restrictions. Potter also showed how campaign money can be donated to Super PACs and 501(3)(4)s. I dimly remember that at the end of all their shenanigans with real contributions and shell organizations, Potter explained that the money from the 501(c)(4) could be quietly converted to personal use by some legal chicanery, although I can't find a link to this last. Anyone else remember this?
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

It feels like the clown car just drove off the cliff in slow motion - it's still in the air, the clowns are tumbling out, but what happens when it hits the ground is not obvious to me.

A+ metaphor right there and I'm pretty sure literally no one knows what's going to happen. For all the comparisons to Nixon, we've already blown him out of the water. We're running into actually uncharted territory - things that literally haven't happened before in American history.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 2:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

jonp72: it would be just like Trump to raise the money for running a 2020 campaign, skim the money off for himself, but be too ~~lazy~~ incarcerated [or] inclined to stay in Russia to do the actual campaign.

Fixed that for me.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Good God, this thread is like Zeno's Paradox

*tweeeeet* flag on the play, recycling joke you already used in the company slack, twenty comment penalty

This was super adorable and cute.

I like you Mefi.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

Achin' Gump

it's what happens when you pull your gump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

"You are hereby charged with tax fraud." "MY CLIENT ABSOLUTELY DID NOT KILL THAT PERSON!"

It's like when Grandpa Simpson says about Homer, "My Homer is not a communist. He may be a Communist, but he is not a porn star!"
posted by jonp72 at 2:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

A 20 comment penalty here lasts about 5 seconds.
posted by agregoli at 2:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Reminder, Carter Page is scheduled to appear in "an open hearing in a closed space" in front of the House Select Committee on Intelligence on Thursday at 9 AM.

Can anyone translate the apparent oxymoron?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure if this has been linked to, but David Frum just retweeted an analysis that suggests that Papadopoulus may have been wearing a wire for the Mueller investigation. Link to hotair.com

Maybe we should send Papadopoulus chocolates. (as before I'm kidding - it's keeping me sane while my democracy unravels....)
posted by bluesky43 at 2:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Non-Mueller news:

Politico: ABA deems another Trump judicial nominee ‘not qualified’ - Grasz is the second judicial nominee from Trump to get a 'not qualified' label from the bar association.
posted by Chrysostom at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

I took one for the team and turned on conservative talk radio on the way home. And heard...

...that of course Manafort is dirty because of course he is because he's the kind of guy a campaign brings in for four months because he'll do whatever it takes (nervous co-host: "I'm... not sure that's why you hire him") and that makes him exactly the kind of swamp creature President Trump is there to drain though of course it is only indictment and any prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich and the mainstream media is heartbroken because there was no, no, no, no, no evidence in the indictments of any collusion or Trump dealing with the Russians and the mainstream was like a kid waking up Christmas morning with no presents but then there was this Papadopolis guy and they were like "surely THIS is what we wanted" but nope, he's a nobody who had nothing to do with the campaign and he wasn't charged with collusion because the thickheaded mainstream media has to understand that COLLUSION IS NOT AN ACTUAL CRIME and Hillary is thankful for that because the Steele Dossier proves beyond a doubt that Hillary and Obama and the DNC all colluded with the Russians to try to swing an election their way and it is also a hideous crime that Mueller spent a year fishing with zero, zero, zero evidence of Trump ties to Russia but he had the facts right there in front of him regarding Hillary and Obama selling national security to let Putin corner the uranium market and it's ridiculous that Mueller hasn't even glanced at their very obvious and serious crimes.

And then they went to a live-read commercial and my hands unlocked from around my neck.
posted by delfin at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2017 [38 favorites]

Can anyone translate the apparent oxymoron?

A committee spokesman told TPM that arrangement means that no press or public will be present, but that his testimony will be unclassified and that the transcript “could be released in the future.”
posted by ghharr at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Two Things

I'm sad because I have a feeling Stephen Miller will walk away from this unscathed

Some of the Trumpinistas are just garden variety racist scumbags and not criminals. It is our job to shine light on them for the rest of their lives so they can't work as effectively towards their racist scumbag goals. To whit, assuming he's not guilty of any crimes, Stephen Miller's punishment is that he has to live the rest of his life as Stephen Miller with the rest of us making sure nobody forgets he's that Stephen Miller.

I was worried before that Muellermas might be a bust...

Holding people accountable for criminal activity is one of the bare minimal things a functioning democracy should be able to do but its not going to stop evil politicians with bad policies. We're responsible for fighting the gobshites' horrible legislation and policies every single day through every legal means possible. Getting rid of some of the criminals who are also awful people still leaves plenty of awful people who aren't criminals in control of too many things.

tl;dr - I think the proper response to Muellermas isn't joy but grim determination to keep trying to hold the wicked accountable and to fight their evil legislation. You know, like Santa Mueller would do.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

Can anyone translate the apparent oxymoron?

A committee spokesman told TPM that arrangement means that no press or public will be present, but that his testimony will be unclassified and that the transcript “could be released in the future.”

So...openish.
posted by darkstar at 2:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Clint Smith:

As you watch Manafort go back home after leaving court remember the half a million ppl sitting in jail bc they’re too poor to afford bail.
posted by jgirl at 2:53 PM on October 30, 2017 [110 favorites]

tl;dr - I think the proper response to Muellermas isn't joy but grim determination to keep trying to hold the wicked accountable and to fight their evil legislation. You know, like Santa Mueller would do.

BUT ALSO CAKE THO
posted by halation at 2:53 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

I get the feeling this wasn't even the overture. Rather, just the orchestra warming up and waiting for the house lights to dim...
posted by jim in austin at 2:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Surely it's Meullerween, not Meullermas.
posted by vibrotronica at 2:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

I had an Akin Gump one time, but then the doctor told me to take these big pills and drink lots of water...
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I get the feeling this wasn't even the overture. Rather, just the orchestra warming up and waiting for the house lights to dim...

This feels like the teaser before the opening title shows up on the screen.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:55 PM on October 30, 2017

Disengorkage? Gorkectomy?

Subtraction Gorka
posted by orange ball at 2:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

gork and mork are ork gods in wh40k
we should do something with this
someone has, probably
posted by hleehowon at 2:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Can you imagine the outrage if Obama did this to the White House.
posted by jgirl at 2:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Let's put a sexy costume on the Statue of Liberty next!
posted by elsietheeel at 3:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Can you imagine the outrage if Obama did this to the White House.

The 2013 version looked a little better I think (that giant dangling spider though), but I don't recall any outrage.
posted by zachlipton at 3:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

WaPo, Craig Timberg and Elizabeth Dwoskin, Russian content on Facebook may have reached 126 million users — far more than first disclosed, internal document says

Facebook plans to tell lawmakers on Tuesday that 126 million of its users may have seen content produced and circulated by Russian operatives, many times more than what the company previously disclosed about the reach of the disinformation campaign during the 2016 presidential election, according to documents obtained by the Washington Post.

Google on Tuesday is expected to acknowledge for the first time that its platforms were also compromised, revealing that Russian trolls uploaded over a thousand videos to YouTube on 18 different channels.

The disclosures, contained in draft testimonies obtained by The Washington Post ahead of three Capitol Hill hearings this week, come as tech giants face mounting pressure to more fully investigate how Russians used their platforms to influence American voters and reveal more of their findings to the public.
...
On Tuesday, Facebook’s General Counsel Colin Stretch is expected to say that between 2015 and 2017, the troll farm posted about 80,000 times, and that roughly 29 million people received that content in their news feeds. Because those posts were also liked, shared, and commented on by Facebook users, the company estimates that three times more people - and at most 126 million - may have been exposed to a story that originated from Russian operatives.

posted by zachlipton at 3:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

This is SOP for White House Halloweens? Here it is in 2016. Honestly, it's lucky the staff are competent and know what to do because Trump is not the type to hand out full-size candybars or do anything decent for the holiday.
posted by halation at 3:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

"There's a large scale ongoing investigation of which this case is a small part," Mueller's team tells the judge re: Papadopoulos
posted by PenDevil at 3:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [52 favorites]

(Flip through the whole slide show if you want yet another mournful round of what-we-have-lost. The Obamas went all-out, with performers and themes and a press release invitation that included a cookie recipe! Compare with this year's press release, which is mostly a list of things you're not allowed to bring to an event that appears to have just straight-up recycled last year's decor.)
posted by halation at 3:09 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Can you imagine the outrage if Obama did this to the White House.

I'm not sure what that picture is but this looks very different.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

From the lawfareblog link: We will say this: Mueller’s opening bid is a remarkable show of strength. He has a cooperating witness from inside the campaign’s interactions with the Russians. And he is alleging not mere technical infractions of law but astonishing criminality on the part of Trump’s campaign manager, a man who also attended the Trump Tower meeting.

Any hope the White House may have had that the Mueller investigation might be fading away vanished Monday morning. Things are only going to get worse from here.

So is anyone watching the supposed live event from the White House Halloween? Are there somber faces? I hope there are somber faces.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

So, this from October 6th ("ABC News: Robert Mueller's team met behind closed doors today w an unknown group of attorneys & chief judge of US District Court in DC") was the day after the Papadopoulos guilty plea was filed. Anyone familiar with federal criminal procedure know if these meetings would have been connected to Papadopoulos, or if they relate to some other undisclosed development?
posted by stopgap at 3:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

he fact that SHS is employed as a full-time liar tells you everything you need to know about the Huckabees' brand of Christianity and how much they care about ginning up outrage about liberals taking down the 10 commandments and whatnot.

The Politics of Religious Prejudice and Tolerance for Cultural Others
Evan Stewart, Penny Edgell & Jack Delehanty

ABSTRACT
While some research argues that religious pluralism in the United States dampens conflict by promoting tolerance, other work documents persistent prejudice toward religious out-groups. We address this ambiguity by identifying a distinct cultural style that structures Americans’ attitudes toward religious others: support for public religious expression (PRE). Using data from a recent nationally representative survey, we find a strong and consistent relationship between high support for PRE, negative attitudes toward religious out-groups, and generalized intolerance. Addressing the previously overlooked public aspects of religion and cultural membership in the United States has important implications for studies of civic inclusion.
posted by srboisvert at 3:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

Oh wait, I just got the live stream to work. They're actually playing "Holding Out for a Hero".
posted by elsietheeel at 3:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

In case you're wondering why the FBI raided Manafort's home. Yahoo News, Michael Isikoff, Manafort charges grew out of records seized in 'no-knock' raid

The FBI’s predawn search of Paul Manafort’s northern Virginia home in July yielded important new evidence crucial to the indictment of Donald Trump’s campaign chairman and one of his close associates, according to the indictments unsealed yesterday by special counsel Robert Mueller.

The “no-knock” raid by agents who picked the lock on Manafort’s front door turned up records showing the longtime political operative had been directly involved in a secret lobbying campaign on behalf of a Ukrainian political party closely aligned with Vladimir Putin’s Russian government, according to the court papers. Manafort, who ran Trump’s campaign for several crucial months last year, has been charged, along with his longtime business partner Rick Gates, with running a scheme to conceal and avoid paying taxes on millions of dollars in fees they collected for their work.
...
Asked twice by the Justice Department — in November 2016 and February 2017 — for any records that they had on the past Ukrainian lobbying effort, their consulting firm, DMI, responded that it “does not retain communications beyond 30 days” and as a result of this policy, a “search has returned no responsive documents.”

But the whole time, the indictment reveals, at least some of those records were stashed in Manafort’s home. Those records helped Mueller put together a case accusing Manafort and Gates of serving as “unregistered” foreign agents by engaging over an eight-year period in a “multimillion dollar lobbying campaign” that was done “at the direction” of former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych and his pro-Russian Party of Regions. Yanukovych is now living in Moscow.

posted by zachlipton at 3:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [52 favorites]

Huh, they went with an Aragog theme, I guess

Appropriate, considering
posted by halation at 3:14 PM on October 30, 2017

Also Trump was wearing his standard cheap suit and red tie and Melania was wearing a camel coat and beige pumps.

I mean I get you're the President and the First Lady, but if Pat Nixon could wear a costume?
posted by elsietheeel at 3:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Like clockwork, Fox has already begun attacking the judge in the Manafort case & the judge is a black woman.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

It occurs to me that Mueller and his team are a bit like NBA basketball players.

There always seemed to be a disconnect to me because I would see all these fancy tricks done on commercials, in movies, by the Globetrotters, etc. but I never saw anything like that in an NBA game. I just figured that fancy moves like that are a waste of time for them to practice or maybe they weren't allowed or something.

Then they started doing the dunk competition and added the other skills competitions and you could see these NBA players break out these crazy and elaborate moves. I finally figured out that the level of play was so high in the NBA that anything other than the more basic techniques just weren't successful. Defenders are so good that fancy tricks will never fool them no matter how well executed so your only option is stick to the basics and beat them with skill. But, take away the defender or make that defender much less competent and suddenly you can get away with doing trick passes and flashy dunks.

The strategies we've seen from Mueller's team have been straight out of the mafia prosecution playbook. But the mafia has been practicing against them for ages. The mob is actually a skilled opponent for the FBI.

So Mueller's put himself together a dream team and presumably they've got through the initial "getting to know each other" growing pains and they're firing on all cylinders. And now they're facing amateurs but instead of whipping out fancy tricks and showing off, they're sticking to what they know is effective.

The original Olympic basketball Dream Team lost to a team of college hot-shots in their first scrimmage but once they were fired up and working together better...

“The next day, we couldn’t get the ball over half-court,” Hill said."

Trump and his gang aren't even gifted amateurs at this. If it were only up to Mueller and his team, I'd be pretty hopeful.
posted by VTX at 3:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [60 favorites]

if Pat Nixon could wear a costume?

Republican cloth coat, not camel
posted by thelonius at 3:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Oh wait, I just got the live stream to work. They're actually playing "Holding Out for a Hero".

Would've gone for Billy Joel's "Pressure," myself.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

New MAGA hat

[Many Are Getting Arrested]
posted by zakur at 3:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Collins won't vote for tax cuts unless:

— No estate tax repeal
— No rate cuts for millionaires

Key GOP Senator Susan Collins Lays Out Her Demands for Tax Bill

“I do not believe that the top rate should be lowered for individuals who are making more than $1 million a year,” Collins said during an interview with Bloomberg News. “I don’t think there’s any need to eliminate the estate tax.”

posted by chris24 at 3:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [82 favorites]

Would've gone for Billy Joel's "Pressure," myself.
posted by octobersurprise at 3:23 PM on October 30 [+] [!]

Eponyppropriate
posted by halation at 3:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Considering how many kids are going Trick-or-Treating as Scary Trump, it's possible that WAS his intended 'costume', or at least his staff's...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Damnit thelonius, I'm out of favorites.

Also Mueller and his team are like the NBA All-Stars playing against...well, the GOP - and their starting forward is a 71 year old man who doesn't exercise.
posted by elsietheeel at 3:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

You guys, it's not even my birthday yet, and you got me indictments for muellerween. Y'all are the best.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 3:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Considering how many kids are going Trick-or-Treating as Scary Trump

Pro-tip - the Scary Trump costume is the same as the Sexy Trump costume.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

Another analysis from today's events from lawfareblog.com.
Short version: Robert Mueller is a kickass prosecutor.

He's also the Anti-Trump:

--he actually hires the best people
--he actually is a smart person
--he actually knows the best words and uses them judiciously
--he obviously knows how to use publicity and the media to achieve specific results
--he is actually delivering on his mandate and doing it super-fast
--he shuts his fucking mouth ALL THE TIME and puts his shoulder to the wheel and works his ass off without saying a damn word to anybody
--he actually inspires loyalty and professionalism and devotion to duty -- PAPADOPOULOS happened four months ago with nary a peep from anyone
--he actually understands and practices the art of the motherfucking deal
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [200 favorites]

Collins won't vote for tax cuts unless:

— No estate tax repeal
— No rate cuts for millionaires

Key GOP Senator Susan Collins Lays Out Her Demands for Tax Bill
posted by chris24 at 3:24 PM on October 30 [2 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

Just need two more...
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:30 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Corker may vote No since he has no more fucks to give. We'll see.
posted by Justinian at 3:32 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I live in Alexandria, and it turns out I can (sorta) see Russia from my house.
posted by raztaj at 3:34 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Jesus, why are they letting them do house arrest before the trials? In addition to just being gross, that rather dramatically props open Putin's murder window.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 3:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Wait, no bail has been posted yet, right?
posted by yoga at 3:40 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Might make them plea guilty sooner, might solve the problem of having to get a guilty verdict . Either way, Mueller wins.
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:42 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

@realDonaldTrump: ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!
....It's all just one big ILLUSION!
....They're trying to spread their CONFUSION!
....My rap game will give them CONTUSION!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

Wait, no bail has been posted yet, right?

Correct. Under house arrest until they post bail, then they surrender their passports.
posted by halation at 3:48 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Thanks, halation.
posted by yoga at 3:49 PM on October 30, 2017

I wouldn't go full Le Carre on Manafort getting slipped a craft over-hopped Indian Polonium Ale. He's no threat to Putin or the Russians, who tend to go after their native sons anyway, and if you posit that Putin's happy with seeing lots of chaos and dirt thrown about to raise distrust in the American system then having him in the news as trials go on isn't even bad. Plus, if there was a sober assessment of him being under threat - and if he were a key witness - then he probably wouldn't be under house arrest anyway.

Manafort and Gates have been hooked and reeled in. They're in the keep net within sight of the cooking pot on the bankside bonfire, watching the steam rise. The game moves on.
posted by Devonian at 3:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

So I took that ridiculous media survey the other day (UGH FOREVER) and got on the damn 45 mailing list. Got an email soliciting funds and I couldn't resist responding:

HHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no I won't be contributing to 45's attorney/bail fund.

Lord, that was satisfying.
posted by Space Kitty at 3:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

Presumably, Manafort has some understanding of the people he's been dealing with, and also presumably he wants to save his own skin, so if he'd felt his life were in danger, he would've asked for some sort of protection detail, or to not stay at his standard home address.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Another thing just struck me about all this, that I lost track of in the midst of the whole collusion question:

If Mueller can show that Trump had a reasonable expectation that there might be blowback from an investigation into Russian collusion, then it adds force to the charge of Obstruction for firing Comey.

I mean, we already have Trump on record admitting to it, but Obstruction becomes a lead pipe cinch if there are any convictions of anyone else for Russian collusion, etc. Because it make real the basis for Trump’s fears, and those fears then become the motive for the Obstruction.

And we just had PapaD confess to collusion - at the very least by members of Trump’s campaign. Which means that even if Trump is never linked to the collusion directly via the PapaD emails, Trump’s now got a concrete motive in the Obstruction charge.

What do they say about method, motive and opportunity?
posted by darkstar at 3:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Purge all the popcorn you've ate all day and get ready for more because noted moron Carter Page will be live on Chris Hayes tonight.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

Republican congressman from Wisconsin.

@RepGallagher
As I’ve said repeatedly, Russia is no friend to the United States and we must continue to pursue the truth in these investigations wherever it may lead. More broadly, we need to vigorously defend our interests at home and abroad against Russian influence and aggression.
posted by chris24 at 3:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

Purge all the popcorn you've ate all day and get ready for more because noted moron Carter Page will be live on Chris Hayes tonight

look i couldn't eat another thing. i'm absolutely stuffed. bugger off.
posted by entropicamericana at 3:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

Purge all the popcorn you've ate all day and get ready for more because noted moron Carter Page will be live on Chris Hayes tonight.

Jeez-o-pizza, if there were ever a time to keep your frickin’ mouth shut...

That boy ain’t right.
posted by darkstar at 3:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

Can you imagine the outrage if Obama did this to the White House.

After a bit of TinEye searching, that actually is a picture from 2016. The Tweet that Too-Ticky linked appears to be the Trumpian version.
posted by jferg at 3:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

If today's indictments are the first shot at bringing down the administration, does that make this the Manafort Sumter moment in a new civil war?
posted by AJaffe at 4:00 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I think it's instructive to take a step back and consider what the Papadopolous timeline tells us about the June 2016 Russia meeting with Don Jr., Manafort, and Kushner:

In March, Papadopolous is named as an advisor to the Trump campaign (on March 21, Trump says so himself) and has a couple of meetings with "the Professor" (Joseph Mifsud) and someone he thinks is Putin's niece. They keep trying to arrange meetings between the Trump campaign and Russian officials, emailing senior campaign staff to try to set up such meetings.

Also in late March, Podesta is phished and his email is hacked, and by early April, the DNC is hacked again. Both are attributed to Russia.

By late April, Papadopoulos is told Russia has "thousands of [Clinton] emails." The DNC finally figures out they were hacked sometime after this, after ignoring the first warnings from the FBI. Papadopoulos keeps emailing Manafort, Lewandowski, and (presumably) Clovis trying to connect the campaign and Russia.

Less than two months later, on June 3rd, Don Jr. gets an email from Rob Goldstone promising incriminating information about Hillary that is offered as "part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump." Don Jr. doesn't ask "Russian support? What the hell are you talking about?" Then, on June 9th, the infamous Trump Tower meeting took place.

Hell, Papadopolous kept trying to setup meetings between the campaign and Russia even after the DNC emails were published and Trump publicly stood on stage and called for Russia to hack Clinton's emails.

We already know Manafort knew about what Papadopolous was up to because he got some of the emails. It doesn't take a particularly big leap to believe that Don Jr. also knew, because he seemed perfectly content receiving "Russia and its government’s support" without asking any questions. Papadopolous was trying to setup meetings between the campaign and Russian officials over and over again, and then what do you know, there's an email where Russians are try a different approach to setup such a meeting.

This is also the most obvious path to a criminal investigation reaching the Trump family: Papadopolous -> Manafort -> Don Jr/Jared. Manafort knew what was going on, and he knows what really happened in that meeting. And now he's facing money laundering charges. As BuzzFeed explains, "Robert Mueller's legal move against Manafort, threatening even his life insurance policy, is intended to turn him into a cooperating witness." The threat here seems pretty straightforward: Manafort talks about collusion, or Mueller's coming after all his money.

Really though, I think the primary question for Trump, Sanders, any Trump surrogates, or any Republican for that matter is simple, and it's the one not being asked: One of Trump's handpicked foreign policy advisors was notified that Russia had thousands of stolen emails earlier than anybody else. Nobody in your campaign called the FBI, the Clinton campaign, or even so much as told him to stop talking to the Russians. Instead, you setup a meeting with Russians and your top campaign staff. Isn't that collusion?
posted by zachlipton at 4:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [119 favorites]

Boy, tonight's explosive season final of Real Housewives of Dallas is gonna seem like a real letdown.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:09 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

What the fuck is Carter Page doing? People ARE GOING TO JAIL already. STOP TALKING MORON.
posted by Justinian at 4:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Purge all the popcorn you've ate all day and get ready for more because noted moron Carter Page will be live on Chris Hayes tonight.

So, some clients talk their way into jail. I have, however, rarely seen a suspect who repeatedly runs up to police cars screaming "not me, I didn't do it, although I definitely could have". It's vaguely horrific, much like watching a cow walk closer and closer to the grinder.
posted by jaduncan at 4:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [33 favorites]

Is it possible the presidential candidate who said
"I love WikiLeaks!"
and
“I will tell you this, Russia: If you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our press.”
might be kept in the loop by his staff about Russia offering hacked DNC emails, and instead of immediately calling the FBI or publicly condemning the offer, might react with glee, or even active co-operation?

It is!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 4:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

Under house arrest until they post bail, then they surrender their passports.

Dear Zombie Jesus, when I die please let me be resurrected as a rich white man. Amen.
posted by elsietheeel at 4:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

What the fuck is Carter Page doing? People ARE GOING TO JAIL already. STOP TALKING MORON.

Listen, he's just going to clarify some things . . . or not. That he really can't disclose, although he definitely won't deny possibly not being involved.

On global cable TV. What could possibly go wrong? I will bet the fucking ranch, tho, that his #1 motivation is to talk more batshitinsane crap about Hillary conspiring to make him eat uranium or something.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

He does have the unsettling intensity of gaze of a unrepentant uraniumnivore
posted by Existential Dread at 4:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

What the fuck is Carter Page doing? People ARE GOING TO JAIL already. STOP TALKING MORON.

Somebody really, really wants to impress the boss.
Hopefully enough so the boss will fly him out of the country ahead of any charges and give him a sweet job in the Kremlin.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

He does have the unsettling intensity of gaze of a unrepentant uraniumnivore

What if they've been trying really hard to polonium him to death and he's addicted to the stuff now?
posted by Artw at 4:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

Or, you know, Page could just a malignant, moronic narcissist who would never pass up any opportunity to appear on TV and look important. Let's not rule that out.

whynotboth.gif
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

I would guess it is Melissa Laurenza as identified in the link posted by melissasaurus.

Hang on a second...
posted by bongo_x at 4:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

God bless Carter Page's tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny, stupid heart shaped thing in his bird shaped chest.
posted by rc3spencer at 4:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Mystery Professor in Mueller Case Had Contacts With Russian Officials.
Why did Joseph Mifsud, who was apparently collaborating with the Trump campaign, deny this
posted by adamvasco at 4:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Is there a good summary of the interesting bits in the indictment? Normally I love reading these things, but I don't have the bandwidth at the moment.
posted by Coventry at 4:27 PM on October 30, 2017

Carter Page may simply believe that saying dumb shit on TV is the path to the presidency, and with good reason
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 4:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

WaPo: Upstairs at home, with the TV on, Trump fumes over Russia indictments

"The walls are closing in," said one senior Republican in close contact with top staffers. "Everyone is freaking out."
posted by chris24 at 4:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [84 favorites]

When I first saw the name Joseph Mifsud, I thought 'hullo, that's a Maltese name'. Lots of Maltese in the UK, but yep, he's the real deal and has been involved in various Maltese government affairs in the past.

If you haven't been following the affairs of Malta too closely, you may have missed that it's become a place where investigative journalists get blown up.and is widely thought to be highly institutionally corrupt. (It sorta always has been, but since joining the EU there's been a move to aggressively leverage the increased access it's got to render all sorts of handy services to those with money.)

So a Maltese connection would doubtless be immediately of interest.
posted by Devonian at 4:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

a clown car stuck on endless shitmonster extrusion

this year has been really interesting for the fucked up metaphor industry, i tell you what
posted by palomar at 4:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [81 favorites]

"The walls are closing in," said one senior Republican in close contact with top staffers. "Everyone is freaking out."

Closing in like the garbage crusher in the Death Star
posted by rifflesby at 4:40 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

> "Everyone is freaking out."

Meanwhile, Trump's like "I don't understand. I've never been held responsible for my actions before. Why would this time be any different?"*

* this dialogue is waaaay too articulate to be something Trump could say, but you know, just roll with it
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:41 PM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

Jesus Christ, Chris Matthews is permitting some hideous Fox-esque ranting Trumpist to spout all this "No collusion, no collusion, Hillary is collusion!" bullshit on his show, so that apparently is going to be the talking point GOP party line now, while Congress studiously pretends they've never heard of any indictments.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:42 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

More like, "I have the best brain. I'm always right. I can't be wrong. SAD!"
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:43 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

This portrait of Trump and his White House on a day of crisis is based on interviews with 20 senior administration officials, Trump friends and key outside allies, many of whom insisted on anonymity to discuss sensitive internal matters.

The hilariously over the top sourcing on these stories from a White House 'at war with leakers' is still underappreciated.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:45 PM on October 30, 2017 [159 favorites]

a clown car stuck on endless shitmonster extrusion

this year has been really interesting for the fucked up metaphor industry, i tell you what

The Human Congresspede.

Wait a second, did I just figure out why magahats started calling themselves 'pedes/centipedes? Ewwwwww.
posted by loquacious at 4:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Well, I usually think of self-identified "pedes" as something ending with "-ophiles".
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:48 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

@renato_mariotti
Carter Page is about to make one of the biggest mistakes of his life. Everything he says on @chrislhayes will be recorded by the FBI.
- The FBI used to tape all of Rod Blagojevich's TV appearances and send them to his defense team as potential exhibits.
posted by chris24 at 4:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [63 favorites]

Why did Joseph Mifsud, who was apparently collaborating with the Trump campaign, deny this

Because they're operating on corporate business standards: Deny you had any connection whatsoever to that troublesome thing, and if it later comes out that you did, say "that was years ago; everything's different now."

The dude in charge has no idea whatsoever that there's any difference between business standards, civil law, and criminal law, and he's dragged everyone else into his plan of "eh, just tell 'em to fuck off and you've got everything under control; by the time they figure out what happened, you'll be long gone with the money."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

"The walls are closing in," said one senior Republican in close contact with top staffers. "Everyone is freaking out."

I am envisioning the "Is there anyone onboard who knows how to fly a plane?" scene from Airplane! [SLYT; NSFW (boobs)]
posted by mosk at 4:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

> Carter Page is about to make one of the biggest mistakes of his life.

Man, you know you done fucked up when going on TV to potentially further implicate yourself in crimes that other people are facing decades in prison over is only "one of" the biggest mistakes of your life.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [36 favorites]

Guy on MSNBC now: Manafort didn't make alot of political contributions but he gave to Roherbacher.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [58 favorites]

Man, you know you done fucked up when going on TV to potentially further implicate yourself in crimes that other people are facing decades in prison over is only "one of" the biggest mistakes of your life.

Indeed, considering this is Carter Page we're talking about, if one were to have to identify a single "biggest mistake of his life" I imagine there would be some pretty stiff competition.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

I cannot imagine the amount of alcohol it would take to get me to take Page as a client. I don't know who his lawyer is, but godspeed, counselor. You're gonna need it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Wait a second, did I just figure out why magahats started calling themselves 'pedes/centipedes? Ewwwwww.

nah it's some memelord interwebs bullshit. either a throwaway reference from this nonsense that spun out the way things on the internet do or a reference to this deep cut depending on who you ask
posted by halation at 4:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

wrt the white house halloween decorations honestly i'm just glad that orange nazi shitsmear and his nazi shitsmear family aren't laughing it up in full minstrel show blackface, klan regalia, or actual ss uniforms that they've owned for 70 years
posted by poffin boffin at 5:18 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Oh, please let Dana Roherbacher get swept up in all of this. That guy is slimier than an angry hagfish in a butter churner.
posted by loquacious at 5:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [99 favorites]

Martin Rowson cartoon on the Trump/Russia enquiry
posted by glasseyes at 5:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

If you're the type to find common sense and fairness reassuring, this little bit from the court decision blocking the military transgender ban is worth the read.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

@megangarber Currently on Fox News:

Has screengrab of MeFi's own Scott Adams, though they've pretty much captioned him "Dilbert guy".
posted by Artw at 5:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

nah it's some memelord interwebs bullshit. either a throwaway reference from this nonsense that spun out the way things on the internet do or a reference to this deep cut depending on who you ask

I know, sorry. I was making a lame scatological joke, slightly dry, but now it's soggy again.

And sweet ten pound baby Jesus please don't link that cancer here, people don't need that shit in their YouTube histories.
posted by loquacious at 5:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Elsewhere, an animation blog's entry about the announcement of Berlin’s annual Pictoplasma Festival coming to New York had an interesting picture attached... (linked directly in case it was an error to be fixed later, but yeah, that's a keeper)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:27 PM on October 30, 2017

Just tuned in to Fox to see how they were spinning this. Tucker Carlson is currently talking about Hillary Clinton's troubling connections to pro-Russian interests... with special guest Dana "Putin's favorite Congressman" Rohrabacher. ಠ_ಠ
posted by Rhaomi at 5:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

Rohrabacher has been around the block a few times, at worst he'll resign with a smile on his face like Tom Delay.
posted by rhizome at 5:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Rohrabacher's talking about how Russia didn't hack the DNC and how he has a "secret informer" on the Clinton-Russia connection. Lordy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

It's not secret if everyone knows all his "info" comes from Assange.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:30 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Can anyone explain how and when Assange became a Russian asset? Is it that they're offering to protect him from a US arrest? Just something I've been wondering about that side of the election influence campaign.
posted by Room 101 at 5:34 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

If you're the type to find common sense and fairness reassuring, this little bit from the court decision blocking the military transgender ban is worth the read.

Here's my favorite bit. The judge doesn't just quote Trump's tweets, she includes screenshots.
posted by scalefree at 5:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Has screengrab of MeFi's own Scott Adams

Are we... Claiming ownership of him? I mean, must we?
posted by greermahoney at 5:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [52 favorites]

Rohrabacher's talking about how Russia didn't hack the DNC

I don't know how other Reps maintain civility around this guy. If I passed him in the hall, I'd say "Fuck you Rohrabacher. Try not to commit any treason on your way to the bathroom."
posted by diogenes at 5:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [58 favorites]

CH - Were you on email chains with Papadopolous about Russia?

CP - It may have come up a few times.

Thanks Carter!
posted by chris24 at 5:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [48 favorites]

> Purge all the popcorn you've ate all day and get ready for more because noted moron Carter Page will be live on Chris Hayes tonight.

"Tonight, Carter Page will joint me live, on-set to react today's indictments and guilty plea."

'Joint' me?
posted by homunculus at 5:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Paul Manafort and the privilege of being a white collar defendant

Brought up on near treason, and being released the same day to house arrest without posting a penny is really, really repugnant. If you're a regular white working class white dude popped with a token amount of weed, you'll sit for a day or more before even seeing a bond judge. Much less a POC charged with anything. This is more than whiteness at work, it's the two tiered justice system for the powerful, as opposed to the powerless.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [78 favorites]

Carter Page is on TV saying he was on email chains with Papadop and Russia "may have come up" and I keep expecting feds to burst in from offscreen
posted by theodolite at 5:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [70 favorites]

This Carter Page interview is already glorious and hilarious.
posted by chainlinkspiral at 5:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

So this Twitter account appears to belong to George Papadopoulos (it goes back to April, so not a recent fake anyway) with a picture of him standing in London a couple days ago, with just the text "#business." And if you're conspiracy-minded, I'm being informed that the picture is taken in front of Harrods. A popular spot to be sure, also around the corner from the Embassy of Ecuador in London. And he presumably wasn't leaving the country without the permission of federal investigators. Could all be nonsense (or outright fake frankly), but, hmm.

Carter Page is live now on MSNBC. He's smirking and being evasive. As far as whether he was in email chains with Papadopoulos on Russia: "It may have come up from time to time. I mean, it's nothing major, yeah."
posted by zachlipton at 5:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

I just... stop, Carter. Just stop. Go home, man. Stop.
posted by Justinian at 5:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

"The walls are closing in," said one senior Republican in close contact with top staffers. "Everyone is freaking out."

Can I just say how utterly fucking nice it is to have them freaking out for a change?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 5:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [74 favorites]

Imagine being Chris Hayes right now...
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

CP - I may have briefed the campaign on my trips to/meetings with Russia, but it was nothing major.

Keep talking!
posted by chris24 at 5:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

Page is asked if he has legal representation?

"I have some people that are helping me. I have some informal advisors...and a formal advisor"

Says he didn't bring a lawyer when he met with Senate investigators for five hours.

This is delicious.
posted by zachlipton at 5:42 PM on October 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

Carter Page is literally foaming at the mouth now wtf.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:43 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Is....is Carter Page a human being?
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Someone tell me what is wrong with Carter Page? Something is obviously wrong with him? Is he just an attention seeker?
posted by Justinian at 5:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Of course Carter Page is pursuing a pro se lawsuit. OF COURSE.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Hayes just said 'I genuinely hope you are innocent because you are doing a lot of talking.' And then wrapped the interview. He feels bad CP is killing himself on his show.
posted by chris24 at 5:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [90 favorites]

for reals though if I've got to identify one person in this mess as a time traveler, it's Carter Page.

Say you were tasked with traveling back in time to covertly sabotage the trump terror. And say you couldn't do anything that revealed your status as a time traveler. And say because you're from the future, you're bad at acting like an early 21st century human.

What do you do? You become Carter Page. You manipulate the timeline so that you can worm your way into a position just close enough to power, that will get you into some meetings, and that will allow you to go on TV and then fuck everything up in the most thoroughgoing way possible — blow everyone's cover, undermine everyone's stories, generally media-monkeywrench the whole scheme. And do it in a way that makes you look like a spectacularly weird moron, instead of like an intentional saboteur.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [135 favorites]

What if Carter Page is just a massive liar, Trump's Id made human?
posted by rhizome at 5:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

He thinks the Broadcasting Board of Governors and Radio Free Europe are a "cut-out?" A broadcasting organization that openly identifies as being funded by the US Government? I don't think that word means what he thinks it does.

I don't ordinarily watch Maddow, but will stick around just to see the size of the smile on her face.
posted by zachlipton at 5:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I didn't see him blink once. Not even the flicker of a nictitating membrane.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

And then wrapped the interview.

Oh man, if I was interviewing Carter Page, I would let him talk as long as he wants. There's a decent probability he says something so incriminating (or crazy) that you're interview goes down in history.
posted by diogenes at 5:49 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Carter Page interviewed by Chris Hayes was some of the most compelling TV news in history. My God. I was shouting at the screen.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 5:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

I hope there's a video up soon.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:53 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

He started foaming at the mouth?
posted by gucci mane at 5:53 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Yes, please post a link to video if you become aware of it.
posted by uosuaq at 5:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Either a time traveller, or he bitterly resents not being invited to the Christmas Party.
posted by chiquitita at 5:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

He shed his human skin and breathed dryer lint.
posted by delfin at 5:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Fox got John Kelly to do the premiere of Laura Ingraham's new show. They pretaped it and are dropping clips to try to get people to care.

Unsurprisingly, he lies—@ddale8: Asked about Manafort, Gates and Papadopoulos, Kelly falsely says "all" of the activities happened "long before they ever met Donald Trump."

Even more unsurprisingly, Ingraham doesn't call out this most obvious of lies.

I've got this 40 second clip of the Carter Page interview. All I've seen so far.
posted by zachlipton at 5:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

The top of CNN's web page right now:

Robert Mueller is the most powerful man in Washington

Trump's head is going to EXPLODE.
posted by mmoncur at 5:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [61 favorites]

Well that was somehow even crazier than I expected.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

He started foaming at the mouth?

Not like a cartoon rabid dog, like he was talking and not swallowing or something and foamy spit built-up.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2017

-aaaand PHEW, made it to the end. Haven't had this much trouble keeping up with one of these threads since the election. What I'm feeling right now isn't nostalgia, exactly ...
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

for reals though if I've got to identify one person in this mess as a time traveler, it's Carter Page.

That's actually less nutty than what Carter Page says.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

"Could you have been born, Carter Page, and not egg-hatched as I've always assumed? Did your mother hover over you, snaggle-toothed and staring as you now hover over Chris Hayes' desk?"
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Well that was somehow even crazier than I expected.

That's what I like to hear. May you live in interesting times, yadda yadda yadda.
posted by rhizome at 5:58 PM on October 30, 2017

Carter Page is pursuing a pro se lawsuit

Carter Page has no idea what the words pro se mean. He's just nodding and smiling.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 5:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Video of "foaming at the mouth" courtesy Ashley Feinberg
posted by birdheist at 5:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Chris Hayes/Carter Page interview. (Not the best quality but all 15 minutes.)
posted by Room 641-A at 5:59 PM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

I think Carter Page has some fucked up desire to be guilty. He is in fact innocent of any wrongdoing but desperately wants the attention like the Important people. So he gets on TV and acts like he imagines a guilty person would act, but he has such a poor imagination that he can't even quite pull it off. The man is traipsing through the uncanny valley of guilt.

Having had the opportunity to observe him at length, I am thoroughly convinced he is in fact too dumb to have comprehended any of the shenanigans going on around him during the campaign, and that even if Vladimir Putin had personally handed him a thumb drive full of emails and said "these are H's emails; they are for D", he would not have understood the implication.
posted by Room 101 at 6:00 PM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

I almost feel bad for Hayes, you can see him struggling between wanting Page to keep talking and screaming "WHAT ARE YOU DOING MAN GET A FUCKING LAWYER". He ended the interview by saying something like, "I really hope you are innocent, because you are doing a lot of talking".
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:01 PM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

You guys. Hannity has incontrovertible evidence that Hillary
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

...that was the end of the comment, that's all he said
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

Chris Hayes/Carter Page interview. (Not the best quality but all 15 minutes.)

That's his previous interview with Chris Hayes, but while you're there, makes sure to watch his answer at 4:15. It's amazing.
posted by diogenes at 6:03 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Kelly stands by his earlier statement on Wilson. POS.

@ddale8
Caught in a lie about Rep. Wilson's speech, John Kelly now says Wilson made her bad remarks before and after her speech. [TRANSCRIPT]
- Kelly's whole story was about Wilson on stage making a whole speech about herself. He now says, without apology, that it wasn't on stage.
posted by chris24 at 6:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [45 favorites]

But why aren't Crooked Hillary & the Dems the focus?????

I'm quite sure he'd always assumed that that's what Mueller has been working on the whole time, and that finding his own people in the spotlight has come as a genuine surprise.

The only thing Trump believes in is his own bullshit.
posted by flabdablet at 6:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

I don't ordinarily watch Maddow, but will stick around just to see the size of the smile on her face.

Update: This big
posted by zachlipton at 6:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [64 favorites]

Popehat (former federal prosecutor Ken White): "YOLO" IS NOT A FEDERAL CRIMINAL DEFENSE STRATEGY
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [69 favorites]

Last month they said it was 201 accounts.

Twitter now admits to 36,000 Russian linked accounts, 1.4m tweets, 288m impressions.
posted by chris24 at 6:15 PM on October 30, 2017 [62 favorites]

Sorry if I missed this and it's in here somewhere already--a political cartoon I thought was moderately delicious: Watch your head.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 6:16 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

"black helicopter conspiracy" - Sean Hannity
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:16 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I'm still halfway convinced that Carter Page wandered into a meeting by mistake. Trump's people thought he was with Putin, Putin's people thought he was with Trump, and Page himself just thought what all these people were discussing seemed awfully interesting and that he wanted a part of it. Nobody's telling him anything because they all assume the other side is keeping him in the loop, and nobody's giving him marching orders because they figure he's working for somebody else. And all he can do is keep on going around pretending he has a clue what's going on until someone steers him in a different direction.
posted by jackbishop at 6:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [53 favorites]

his portrait of Trump and his White House on a day of crisis is based on interviews with 20 senior administration officials, Trump friends and key outside allies, many of whom insisted on anonymity to discuss sensitive internal matters.

The hilariously over the top sourcing on these stories from a White House 'at war with leakers' is still underappreciated.

At this point, the White House is more leak than bucket.
posted by darkstar at 6:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

"Will America just become a banana republic?" - Hannity, talking about Uranium One
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

@GoAngelo
Woah. @seanhannity (presumably with Fox News’ approval) hosting serial sexual predator Bill O’Reilly yet again on his radio show Friday

@dandrezner
Whoops, @seanhannity just said “President Clinton” referring to Hillary. It’s almost as if he wishes Hillary Clinton really was president.
posted by chris24 at 6:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

To explain how we can prevent America from becoming a banana republic, here's the President's attorney Jay Sekulow who disappeared for a weekend to play in an 80s cover band
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

The current Fox chron: "Is there unequal justice under the law?" really talking about Trump's posse (as victims)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:23 PM on October 30, 2017

poor quality but i believe this is tonight's hayes/page interview
posted by halation at 6:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

The White House is a colander of leaks.
posted by jointhedance at 6:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

"Trump's head is going to Explode"

Everyone is so sure he won't fire Mueller, but I feel like he could get away with it. Trumpers are already accusing Mueller of being involved in crazy Democrat conspiracies. I feel like they're building a case against him.
posted by Tarumba at 6:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

"29 year old guy" is the main Fox talking point between Newt and Hannity.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:30 PM on October 30, 2017

"Remember when Hillary gave Putin all our uranium and we ran out of uranium and we had to beg for uranium my cat's breath smells like cat food"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:31 PM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

"this is THE most corrupt administration in American history" - Newt, followed quickly by Sean correcting him "you're talking about OBAMA right... OBAMA"
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:33 PM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

If one good thing came out of this awful Niger situation, it's the destruction of Kelly's reputation. Proven to be what many thought he was.

@CNNJason
John Kelly just told Fox News host he’ll never apologize to Rep. Fredericka Wilson re: his false claims about her.
posted by chris24 at 6:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [55 favorites]

Carter Page is the Zoidberg of the Trump administration.

"Hooray! People are paying attention to me!"
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 6:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [51 favorites]

CARTER PAGE - SHOW US WHAT YOU GOT

I'm so sorry, but I might be able to buy a house with that meme on the dank memes markets.
posted by loquacious at 6:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Tomorrow's NY Daily News front page (I don't care if this is real or not)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

At long last, Hillary Clinton and Sean Hannity agree.

@aseitzwald: Asked about her Halloween costume, Hillary Clinton says she’ll “go as the president.
posted by zachlipton at 6:39 PM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

@WhiteHouse
The brave Americans killed at Benghazi will never be forgotten and their families remain in the nation’s thoughts and prayers.

[REAL! IT IS ACTUALLY REAL!!!!!]
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:45 PM on October 30, 2017 [35 favorites]

@aseitzwald (NBC)
Hillary Clinton: “All the networks except Fox are reporting what’s really going on... It appears they don’t know I’m not president.”

@JRubinBlogger Replying to @aseitzwald
she might want to capitalize on that -- you know issue some executive orders or something
posted by chris24 at 6:45 PM on October 30, 2017 [83 favorites]

Did Congress take a snow day? Pretty quiet up there.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:45 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

George Papadopoulos is the Greek equivalent of Joe Smith in terms of frequency. I mean the writers could at least try a bit.

Well, it's a joke name sir. Like... Naughtius Maximus or Biggus Dickus.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

John Kelly just told Fox News host he’ll never apologize to Rep. Fredericka Wilson re: his false claims about her.

I was worried that this Mueller stuff would stop Trump from picking on soldiers' widows, but apparently he put his Best Guy on it.
posted by mmoncur at 6:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: I probably should have known you weren’t Putin’s niece

I remember those little nothings you used to whisper to me. “You look more majestic than my uncle, shirtless, astride a horse,” you would say, and my heart would swell. But now that I know that your uncle is not, in fact, Vladimir Putin, I have no idea how to take these words. Maybe your uncle is not known for riding shirtless on horses. Was I really beautiful to you, then? Was I anything?

I remember the times we had, and a shadow falls over all of them. Yes, you said you could see us together in the future, but specifically what you said was, “I can see us together at a table with Donald Trump discussing potential collaboration with his campaign.”

When I asked you what you wanted for your birthday, maybe it was a red flag that you said, “Just an email confirmation of a direct line to the Trump campaign!”

posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:48 PM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

Seb Gorka, an actual Nazi, on Fox defending the President and Manafort
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: Nothing could have less to do with Donald Trump than the campaign that made him president

This indictment story has everything. Vladimir Putin’s “niece.” $934,350 worth of carpet. Catfishing. Paul Manafort, whose involvement with the Trump campaign — as its chairman — apparently came as a total surprise to the campaign. At least, that’s what Sarah Huckabee Sanders repeatedly reassured the American people on Monday, after reading them a bizarre and lengthy story about 10 journalists going out to buy beer together that concluded, “And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how our tax system works!” It was the worst Aristocrats joke I have ever heard. Here is her account, somewhat condensed:

First, this has nothing to do with Donald Trump.

For several months, the chairman of the Trump campaign was a man no one knew anything about and who was completely unaffiliated with Donald Trump in any way.

There is nothing less connected to Donald Trump than the campaign that worked to elect him president.

posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [44 favorites]

I just hope the people who run the prison have a sense of humour and an infinite supply of meatloaf.
posted by adept256 at 6:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Kellyyyyy today of all days you could have just let your bullshit moves with Rep. Wilson lie low and let the mercy of a fickle news cycle wash them away from the national discourse.... I get the feeling you're just bringing it up again to try and shift the news away from your boss' bad day.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

The big takeaway is I have to get me a Fusion GPS, does it have a touchscreen or voice interface or what
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

@jbarro
Hannity does a montage about how Democrats all say they haven't seen evidence of collusion -- most recent clip is from June 4.
posted by chris24 at 6:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Just checked in on The_Donald over on Reddit. It's a weird timeline over there. In there's Hillary was elected President and is sure to be impeached by week's end. Also _Everyone_ knew Manafort was bad, that's why a woman lead Trump to victory.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Twitter now admits to 36,000 Russian linked accounts, 1.4m tweets, 288m impressions.

I'm finding it rather coincidental that both Twitter and Facebook are admitting to more Russian influence than they had before at the same time these first indictments and a guilty plea are happening. Like Mueller's team already knows much more about the influence operation than we've heard so far and this is a chance for them to start to come clean.
posted by downtohisturtles at 6:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

I get the feeling you're just bringing it up again to try and shift the news away from your boss' bad day.

Which is to be expected, and some day someone will invent techniques for piercing these distraction shields. Both to persist on the current story and to shiv the distraction attempt.
posted by rhizome at 6:53 PM on October 30, 2017

I just checked in Hannity out of curiosity - he genuinely seems unhinged. He was complaining about how Manafort's indictment for money laundering is so far away from Mueller's mission statement of investigating Trump-Russia collusion, then immediately complained about how Mueller wasn't looking into Clinton & Podesta. He also had Newt Gingrich on who said, "We're talking about the most corrupt administration in the history of the United States." Hannity had to clarify Newt meant the Obama administration.

I believe Gingrich is a bullshit artist that will say anything for a buck, but Hannity had the look of a true believer. It was kind of scary how divorced from reality he is.
posted by bluecore at 6:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Remember for later, FOX is really *down* on grand juries today.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Tomorrow AM is going to be interesting. They kept Trump pretty much off Twitter today, helped by the fact that the big news happened after his 6-7am Fox & Friends morning rage tweet hour. But tomorrow when he's alone with his TV and phone and with fewer/no minders around... Watch out.
posted by chris24 at 6:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

FOX is really *down* on grand juries today.

This is the most times I've heard "ham sandwich" said in a single day.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

I'd be much more worried if some... any... of the "responsible Republicans" had gone onto FauxNews to defend Trump or any of his Tramps.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

Carter Page is either the dumbest man in the world or he's somebody's agent on some drunken master level of intelligence work. The inside of that man's head is either a howling nothing or like a Vic Berger remix of the finale of The Prisoner.

He's the one guy that I just don't get. I can't come up with a theory that explains his actions. If I had a book from the future, the first thing I'd look up was Carter Page.
posted by diogenes at 7:02 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Laura Ingraham thinks "preserving our history" is one of our top 3 Maslow's needs
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:03 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Just a kid!
posted by chiquitita at 7:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I don't know why I'm watching this. Kelly starts by explaining he's very busy with his job and doesn't know much about the indictments because he doesn't watch TV, then goes to his lie that "all of the activities that they were indicted before were long before they met Donald Trump or had any association with the campaign." Ingraham is kind enough to not mention how this is utter crap, then straight up asks Kelly whether there should be a special counsel to investigate the Uranium One deal and the dossier. Kelly says "yeah I think so."
posted by zachlipton at 7:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I can't tell if Kelly is calling 90% of America ignorant for not worrying about what goes on in DC, or what ... ?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:11 PM on October 30, 2017

I don't know why I'm watching this

I know, I'm just hate watching until I switch back to CC and see the Korn episode of South Park
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:11 PM on October 30, 2017

Graham: There would be "holy hell" to pay if Mueller were dismissed without cause.
posted by chris24 at 7:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

And they'd pay holy hell and meet for dinner afterwards.
posted by rhizome at 7:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [36 favorites]

There is a very minor DC Comics villain called Mister Terrible, and his whole shtick is that he is awful at everything, and basically Carter Page is the real life version of that guy.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

David Frum: Staying Silent May Backfire Spectacularly on Republican Lawmakers: Usually, laying low during controversies is a savvy move for legislators. But when it comes to Trump and Russia, it brings its own risks.
posted by homunculus at 7:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

The generals will save us! lol

@yashar
General Kelly tells Laura Ingraham that the Mueller probe "should wrap up soon."
posted by chris24 at 7:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Daily Beast, Steve Bannon Thinks Trump’s Legal Team Is ‘Asleep at the Wheel’—And He’s Looking For Ways to Kneecap Mueller

The former White House chief strategist is increasingly concerned that President Donald Trump’s legal team is falling down on the job. And he’s worried that they’ve left the president vulnerable as former campaign aides are being handed indictments.

“In terms of Steve’s thinking of how the president is handling this, yeah, he thinks the legal team was not prepared for what happened today—they’re not serving the president well,” a source close to Bannon said.

Added another confidant: Bannon believes Ty Cobb and John Dowd, the top two attorneys on the president’s legal team, “are asleep at the wheel.”
...
Worried about these missteps, Bannon has increasingly contemplated taking matters into his own hand—all in an attempt, he believes, to spare Trump from having to fire the man investigating his campaign and family’s finances.

Multiple sources close to Bannon told The Daily Beast on Monday that he is “advocating a much more aggressive legal approach short of firing Mueller,” as one source put it, and has been mulling options that would effectively curtail the special counsel’s investigation into 2016 Russian election-meddling and alleged Trump campaign connections to it.

When Trump starts threatening Mueller, you now know who is whispering in his ear.
posted by zachlipton at 7:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [24 favorites]

The Guardian: Nigel Farage is 'person of interest' in FBI investigation into Trump and Russia

Nigel Farage is a “person of interest” in the US counter-intelligence investigation that is looking into possible collusion between the Kremlin and Donald Trump’s presidential campaign, the Guardian has been told.

Sources with knowledge of the investigation said the former Ukip leader had raised the interest of FBI investigators because of his relationships with individuals connected to both the Trump campaign and Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder whom Farage visited in March.

posted by monospace at 7:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [97 favorites]

Front page of tomorrow's NY Daily News.

Smashing Trumpkins.
posted by chris24 at 7:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Actually had to send this Mueller infographic to someone's mom today who had a bad diet of FOX, and formerly considered herself a Democrat
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Oops, RNC.

Firm in Mueller indictment got RNC funds for work on Trump campaign

A company listed in the Monday indictment of former Trump campaign manager Paul Manafort and his associate Rick Gates received funds from the Republican National Committee for work done in coordination with Donald Trump’s election campaign.

Bade LLC, listed in the indictment among 17 domestic entities that Manafort and Gates are alleged to have used to hide foreign earnings, particularly from Ukraine, was paid a total of $70,000 in three payments by the Republican National Committee in September 2016, October 2016 and January 2017.

The payments, all for “political strategy services,” each list an address associated with Gates.

posted by chris24 at 7:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [34 favorites]

Sources with knowledge of the investigation said the former Ukip leader had raised the interest of FBI investigators because of his relationships with individuals connected to both the Trump campaign and Julian Assange, the WikiLeaks founder whom Farage visited in March.

I like it when the FBI's red string lines up with mine. It makes me feel like maybe the world hasn't gone crazy.
posted by diogenes at 7:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

Every journalist and "serious person" in DC that told us Kelly was anything other than a Trumpist hack as bad or worse than Sean Spicer owes America a written apology. Say what you want about Sean Spicer, at least he didn't sell out his dead son's memory for Trump.

I look forward to John Kelly's seminar at the Harvard Kennedy School, last refuge of worthless pieces of shit.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:27 PM on October 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

Not-Republicans on my FB all "but Tony Podesta you guys!"

Yeah, let's focus on what's really important here.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:29 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Kelly is now telling us how Robert E. Lee was "an honorable man" because he fought for his state and "the lack of an ability to compromise led to the Civil War." This is incredibly gross.
posted by zachlipton at 7:31 PM on October 30, 2017 [78 favorites]

Worried about these missteps, Bannon has increasingly contemplated taking matters into his own hand—all in an attempt, he believes, to spare Trump from having to fire the man investigating his campaign and family’s finances.

Is he going to kidnap a member of jack bauer's family?
posted by srboisvert at 7:36 PM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

Michael Mukasey is on Fox talking about "pygmies" ... sounds a little racist, no?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 7:41 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

John Kelly has decided to shred what’s left of his reputation and thereby make his transformation to Dignity Wraith complete.

He’ll have more credibility with Trump and Co, but egads, man.
posted by notyou at 7:42 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Is he going to kidnap a member of jack bauer's family?

Well, he'll try. He'll wind up kidnapping Earnest P. Worrell by mistake, and try to shift the blame to ol' Verne when it all goes so terribly wrong.

This is the state of the GOP in 2017, in charge of all three branches at the national level.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:43 PM on October 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Okay, I was already convinced that Bad Boy Bannon was grossly overestimating his power and ability to 'take over' the Republican Party, but if he thinks he can derail the Mueller investigation from his own position totally outside the government, he is clearly as delusional as Dumb Donald...
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:44 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

Given the ridiculousness of the cast of characters involved in this whole affair, I'm really starting to think that the giant computer simulation we're all living in is starting to break down.

That being said- just in case I ever do become implicated in some sort of espionage activity, I'm thinking of changing my name to something like "Clandestino Obviousspy" in order to deflect attention from my involvement.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:46 PM on October 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Worried about these missteps, Bannon has increasingly contemplated taking matters into his own hand

Uh, ok. The Bannon as omniscient mastermind genre has gotten out of hand. The only strategy mentioned is not "Bannon taking matters into his own hand", it's legislative sabotage relying on Republicans in Congress to undercut Mueller. An amendment to the budget "barring Mueller from pursuing criminal charges for any conduct occurring before March 2015". I'd hope that alone would be enough for Democrats in the Senate to shutdown the government over, if it could even get enough Republican support, because the Freedom Alliance To Preserve Democracy (Flake, McCain, Corker) would have to go along.

Bannon is out of government, he can't actually do anything other than threaten and pressure Republicans to do his bidding, and direct the Mercer's money against them if they don't, which he's already doing anyway. No Senate incumbents other than Cruz have the slightest bit of incentive to do a damn thing he says.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Oh god, Devin Nunes is on Ingraham. Just a parade of horribles today.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'd just like to say this has been my favorite day on MetaFilter this year.
Thanks, everyone!
posted by MtDewd at 7:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [53 favorites]

Even on this kind of day, there is still...

ELECTIONS NEWS

** VA gov:

-- Qunnipiac poll has Northam up 53-36. This is a huge outlier, nobody actually thinks this. One thing we *might* take away is that the Q poll margin has been increasing, so there might be something to that. In any case, simple poll average is a Northam +3.3.

-- FWIW Dept: Looks like high early vote turnout for Dems in Fairfax and Arlington Counties (populous DC suburbs). This could be just cannibalizing Election Day voters, of course, but better high than low.

** NJ gov -- Suffolk poll finds Murphy up 49-33.

** 2018 Senate -- Jeff Flake says he won't run as an independent. Meanwhile a poll shows the GOP nomination to be very much up for grabs, with frothing lunatic Kelli Ward only at 26% despite name recognition.

** Odds & ends:

-- Decision Desk has the VA Lieutenant Governor race as Lean/Tilt Democrat (margin under 4%).

-- L.A. mayor Eric Garcetti has said he won't run for CA gov. He already said he won't run against Feinstein for Senate, and he seems to be spending a lot of time in early presidential primary states.... [LAT]

-- Randy Bryce, the ironworker who's attracted a lot of attention in his attempt to unseat Paul Ryan, is sticking his foot in his mouth.

-- Interesting chart of Nancy Pelosi and Paul Ryan approval ratings (Nancy drifts up, Paul sharply down).

-- Further tidbit from that NBC/WSJ poll - "The Republican advantage in GOP-held congressional districts has decreased from +14 in September (52 percent preferring a GOP-controlled Congress versus 38 percent preferring a Democratic-controlled Congress) to +6 in October (47 percent GOP, 41 percent Dem). "

-- More on Dem fundraising numbers (way up).

posted by Chrysostom at 7:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [38 favorites]

Worried about these missteps, Bannon has increasingly contemplated taking matters into his own hand—all in an attempt, he believes, to spare Trump from having to fire the man investigating his campaign and family’s finances... He’s being tight-lipped about the strategy so far—and it is unclear how robust an effort he’ll actually try to mount—but options are available to him.

Former-WH-chief-strategist, holding-no-elected-office, sack-o'-misery Steve Bannon has options, mind you.

(Also, "taking matters into his own hand" -- so simple, he'll only need one hand? Yet another lowbrow sex reference? Or did Race Bannon's outcast brother finally sacrifice a hand to his dark gods to maintain influence?)
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Yeah, if Bannon is able to single-handedly convert the country to who-knows-what, what the hell is he waiting for?
posted by rhizome at 7:54 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

(Also, "taking matters into his own hand" -- so simple, he'll only need one hand?

Nah, Scaramucci told us he doesn't need even that.
posted by rhizome at 7:55 PM on October 30, 2017 [40 favorites]

Bannon? Less mastermind and more masturbate.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:57 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I'd say Bannon did a pretty good job, if not single-handedly converting the country, then certainly channelling its racist heart for productive evil.

Maybe he has a few less tools at his disposal now, but he still does have one important tool (based on reports of late-night calls).
posted by pjenks at 7:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I agree that "taking matters into his own hand" is largely Bannon's self-aggrandizement, as aided by certain Daily Beast writers who feed from his trough, but if Bannon sits around encouraging Trump to withhold cooperation from investigators, or more seriously, to fire Mueller, that's extremely dangerous. Bannon doesn't have a lot of power, but he does apparently get to whisper his horrible ideas straight into the President's head when he's bored and alone in his bedroom.
posted by zachlipton at 7:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Buried in this story about Shep Smith providing journalistic cover to Fox News while being completely unable to influence the rest of the network is a nugget about Paul Manafort's relationship with Donald Trump that I did not know:

Paul Manafort, they used to call him “The Count,” because Paul Manafort, going way back, Trump met him in the mid-1980s. I think it was actually 1988 at the Republican Convention down in New Orleans. And since then they had had a friendship, and he was called “The Count.” And he was the guy on whom they were going to rely. Remember when it was everyone within the Republican Party, all Trump supporters were afraid that they were going to get to that convention and somehow [Trump’s opponents] were going to steal the convention? It was Paul Manafort’s job to come in there and turn votes into delegates. … He got in there, he ran that convention. Make no mistake. In Cleveland, Paul Manafort was in charge. No one will deny this. He was in charge of everything.

I really love what Smith has done here, for real.

1. He provides actual useful information about Manafort & Trump's relationship.
2. He pushes back at characterizations that Manafort was just some volunteer with little input or influence.
3. He reminds his viewers, ostensibly Republicans, that many, many Republicans did not want Trump. So much so that they needed "The Count" to fix things.

Now you could argue that he's distancing the Republican Party from Manafort and Trump, and that's probably true. But I still like the idea of Republicans rejecting Trump, not golfing with him and then doing lunch. (Yes, I am talking about Graham.)
posted by xyzzy at 7:58 PM on October 30, 2017 [46 favorites]

"agent on some drunken master level of intelligence work" That became my take on it. He is in a nightmare, and about to lose all of his phat jobs at once.
posted by Oyéah at 8:05 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Kelly is now telling us how Robert E. Lee was "an honorable man" because he fought for his state and "the lack of an ability to compromise led to the Civil War." This is incredibly gross.

Even grosser, he also said, “Men and women of good faith on both sides made their stand where their conscience had them make their stand" (via Christina Wilkie).

Yes, the White House chief of staff just "fine people on both sides"-ed the Civil War.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2017 [100 favorites]

for reals though if I've got to identify one person in this mess as a time traveler, it's Carter Page.

According to my research, Carter Page is not only his own mother through a deft bit of time traveling, but he's also his own son, pumpkin, and meat tenderizer.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:07 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

And declared that prolonging chattel slavery was a matter of conscience.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:07 PM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

"Bannon taking matters into his own hand" Scaramucci said this a little differently.
posted by Oyéah at 8:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

John Kelly might have been a general 150-odd years ago, but not for the Union.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

Paul Manafort, they used to call him “The Count,” because Paul Manafort, going way back, Trump met him in the mid-1980s.

Shep Smith's sentence does not accomplish its stated purpose of explaining why Manafort was called "the Count." WaPo says the full sobriquet is "the Count of Monte Cristo," "a reference to the swashbuckling hero of a 19th-century French novel" who also had a habit of showing up out of nowhere with unexplained shitloads of money.
posted by Iridic at 8:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [41 favorites]

Jim Sciutto‏ @jimsciutto: "It is very distracting for the president to be investigated for something" - Chief of Staff Kelly on #Mueller investigation on Fox

{record scratch}

Matt McDermott @mattmfm: Appears the White House Chief of Staff just confirmed what the White House has denied for months: Donald Trump is under investigation.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [126 favorites]

I thought that it was The Count because Manafort looks a bit like the Sesame Street character.
posted by chiquitita at 8:15 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

Yes, the White House chief of staff just "fine people on both sides"-ed the Civil War.

Remember when we all looked at photos of Kelly where he looked like he wanted to sink through the floor while Trump stammered about "both sides?" Turns out he was just annoyed because Trump can barely speak English. He'd have done a much better job explaining why slavery was just a point of contention between honorable men.
posted by xyzzy at 8:15 PM on October 30, 2017 [40 favorites]

How tall is Carter Page? Is he Putin's stunt double? Or is he a modified human, he went to Moscow, but came back a Kremlin skin job? He has a funny triangular bump on the back of his head, like where his lizard crest was once attached.
posted by Oyéah at 8:15 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

WaPo says the full sobriquet is "the Count of Monte Cristo," "a reference to the swashbuckling hero of a 19th-century French novel" who also had a habit of showing up out of nowhere with unexplained shitloads of money.

From this we can assume that decades ago, Trump did something to ruin Manafort's life, and he has spent the intervening time constructing an intricate con, wherein he will gain Trump's trust and then utterly destroy him.

Guess what I read this summer?
posted by Chrysostom at 8:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [41 favorites]

Kelly is now telling us how Robert E. Lee was "an honorable man" because he fought for his state and "the lack of an ability to compromise led to the Civil War." This is incredibly gross.

I lost all my never-more-than-tentative respect for him over the Muslim Ban, of course, so it's not like I had anything left to lose over the whole condolence call / smearing a widow / lying about a Congresswoman thing. His "I wouldn't let any refugees in at all" thing was also too low for words. But I suppose it's nice of him to let us all know he wasn't doing all that just for the sake of keeping an unstable commander in chief from coming (more) unglued.

Kelly's disgusting actions come from a really gross heart, backed up by a really gross mind.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:22 PM on October 30, 2017 [39 favorites]

Dignity Wraithdom Complete
posted by Barack Spinoza at 8:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

"the Count of Monte Cristo"? More like he's so greasy, he's the Count of Monty Crisco...?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I totally expected Trump to try to start a war to gain support for his administration. I just didn't really expect that he would opt for restarting the Civil War.
posted by srboisvert at 8:28 PM on October 30, 2017 [27 favorites]

What a fucking day this has been. Mueller Time did not disappoint, it went down cold and satisfying, truly the champagne of indictments for colluding with a hostile foreign power. Celebration of a weird sort is definitely in order.

Hillary Clinton will be dead and buried and the psychotic right-wing of America will be demanding we dig up her corpse and put it on trial Cadaver Synod style for whatever imaginary scandal du jour they've cooked up to cover up for the fact that they're all a pack of mendacious bigots whose only true passion is looting the treasury . She is just the gift that keeps on giving. We have always been investigating HRC.

I can't wait to see Trump completely melt down on twitter some time in the next 24-48 hours because it promises to be absolutely epic. Even more choice when some of his hateful spawn or spawn-in-law get perp walked. I hope at the absolute minimum it fucks up their collective week. Is it healthy to hold this much diabolical glee inside?

Of course Trump is sending out his many friends to go out on the news channels and try and defend or spin for him. The fact that the best guy he's got is Kelly makes it even more delicious. Like, that's his top guy. The rest are idiots and flunkies like Gorka. And of course they're terrible at it. Who knew treason was so complicated?

None of the "serious" Republicans, from occasional concerned contrarian John McCain to perennial invertebrate Paul Ryan will step up to the plate for this dude. And Trump values loyalty so this will just make him even more demented in his anger.

In conclusion, God bless Mueller Time, and God bless America.
posted by supercrayon at 8:33 PM on October 30, 2017 [89 favorites]

Ana Marie Cox had on Nate Bethea this week, talking about respect for the military, miltary-civilain relations, and who's allowed to criticize the military these days.

The crux of the discussion was the military is made of people, and some of them are great and dedicated and deserve all our respect and admiration. But ultimately they're just people doing a job.

The flip side of that is that others, like John Kelly, are irredeemable racists, fascist authoritarians, and deserve nothing but contempt and utter scorn, because they are actively working to undermine everything that America was founded on and they supposedly swore to defend. It's our American duty to call John Kelly a authoritarian waste of vaguely human flesh who sold out his family and country.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:34 PM on October 30, 2017 [16 favorites]

You don’t say.

China considers three-year jail terms for disrespecting national anthem
posted by chris24 at 8:34 PM on October 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Has anyone else read Carter Page's biography? He was in the top 10% of his class at the US Naval Academy, was an intelligence officer. He's got two Masters and PhD from non-bullshit programs.

As the old saying goes, PhDs and MBAs routinely fall for the usual BS.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:35 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

if it's in a word
or in a look
you can't get rid of
THE PAPADOOK
posted by adept256 at 8:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

One can imagine a situation in which a political campaign manager decided to get their hands dirty and keep it a secret from their candidate. One can imagine that such a campaign manager might have met with Russians bearing hacked emails and kept it a secret from his candidate in order to allow plausible deniability.

Such a campaign manager would not have allowed the candidate's son and son-in-law to attend a such a meeting. For the candidate's family to be involved in such dirty campaign dealings would be almost as dangerous as having the candidate involved.

The idea that Donald Trump's senior political campaign staff kept him in the dark regarding their knowledge of what the Russians possessed and how the Russians were willing to help them in exchange for political favors... is nonsense.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:38 PM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

if it's in a word
in your metropolis
you can't get rid of
the papadopoulos
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:41 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

Today has been...The Papadoppening.
posted by uosuaq at 8:47 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Nigel Farage is 'person of interest' in FBI investigation into Trump and Russia

I know Mueller has to put America First, but if he can prove the Russians were behind Brexit that would be super helpful also
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [91 favorites]

Can anyone explain how and when Assange became a Russian asset?

This has come up before, and back then people acted like unless there were photocopies of checks with BANK OF MOSCOW and FROM KGB¹: FOR ESPIONAGES on them, signed by Vladimir Putin himself, there was no plausible way to think that maybe some media figures had been influenced by a certain nation-state.

So let's spin a little yarn:

You're an intelligence officer in the external security or maybe counter-intelligence apparatus of a given State. You're generally working on things that oppose what I might call the liberal², Western order: NATO, EU, Five-Eyes³, etc. These targets present some challenges, but they also present some opportunities. One such opportunity is the nominal commitment to transparency and basic rights, and how this clashes with the needs for governments to keep secrets. Various organizations, starting with the free press and running through dissident clandestine publishing organizations, like Wikileaks, have actually believed the things governments promulgates about rights, transparency, and democracy, and this makes them vulnerable.
These organizations and individuals have set up various low-key and anonymous ways to get in contact with them, and this provides an opening.
One of the resources you have as an intelligence officer is a bunch of secrets. Secrets about your own State, secrets about other states. So you select one of the Western dissidents, the target, and reach out to them with a small secret- maybe even about your own State. Something they suspected, but didn't know. Maybe something that leans on their already existing interests. Maybe something that they knew, but you can offer proof. And bit by bit, you can offer them more, and a little more at a time. Confirmation of stories they were working on. Other angles, new information, and always helpful.
By turns you play fearful, arrogant, excited. Oh no - you can't meet in person, you fear the CIA/SIS/BND⁴ are after you. Here's a tasty tidbit that can't really be proven, but fits into things they already suspected, etc. etc.
You, our crafty and dedicated intelligence officer, can do a few more interesting things with State's resources. Have a coworker pose as someone else, and offer corroborating information. Reach out to a rival dissident journalist group with a story, and make your target hungrier. Have locals contacts pose or hired as couriers, dissidents, cut-outs, and establish a real world-presence. Run the game with many targets, all bouncing off each other.
Now here's the fun part: you can play on their internal biases. Good Westerners, especially enlightened men of a certain stripe, don't think they have any, which makes it easier. Maybe your target has a special fear and hatred of a high-level official? Feed them damaging information, or frightening information, on that official. Maybe the target is very vocal on a certain clandestine government program of extrajudicial assassination? Feed them information on that program. And the best part is, it doesn't have to be all true. Some can be unverified rumors, some can be background only, some can outright lies (but unverifiable!). And of course, some will be true.
True, and misleading ⁵.
And by this time you're a trusted source. Your information doesn't always pan out, but you certainly operate in good faith, and you're just trying your best, and after all, hasn't more - much more - been true, or "true," over the years?

And now they're severely fucked.

Of course, I certainly don't know that this happened. I don't even know that this is the sort of things that does happen.
I'm just a someone whose read a bunch of Len Deighton and John Le Carre novels,and you probably shouldn't listen to me anyway.

1: FSB, now.
2: Westphalian, all that jazz.
3: US, UK, CAN, AUS, NZ
4: the Germans
5: true and misleading is "disinformation."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:52 PM on October 30, 2017 [59 favorites]

Russian content on Facebook may have reached 126 million users

Seeing that its common practice for financial institutions to contact you when there's been a data breach, I'd like to see Facebook move these posts back to the top of the timeline of any user that shared or liked the post; with a large message stamped over the top: "Warning: your mind may have been infiltrated by this propaganda."
posted by mach at 8:56 PM on October 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

They don't need anything from Flynn. He's small potatoes, and Manafort is his puppetmaster.

Donald Trump could have selected anyone to be National Security Advisor, with access to literally all secrets of the United States Federal Government.

He chose a man everyone knew was corrupt and had recently been an agent of foreign autocrats.

And since they have been very quiet of late, perhaps these big potatoes have been cooperating. Perhaps the big potatoes have shared what they have seen. With their eyes.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:00 PM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

I wonder what will happen tomorrow.

(Please, I hope nothing happens tomorrow. I've been informed that I was supposed to, *checks notecard*, do other things today. You know that "Are you still watching?" button on Netflix? It's a warning system.)
posted by zachlipton at 9:04 PM on October 30, 2017 [18 favorites]

"I have some people that are helping me. I have some informal advisors...and a formal advisor"

Pretty sure Carter page is brad pitt in burn after reading
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 9:08 PM on October 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

This about sums it up:

Kyle Griffin‏: "Today was so much crazier than I could have imagined."

darth:™‏: "I THOUGHT WE ESCAPED AFTER THE CARTER PAGE INTERVIEW KYLE BUT THEN THE CIVIL WAR STARTED."
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:10 PM on October 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

the lack of an ability to compromise led to the Civil War

He's right. The lack of an ability to compromise by the fucking Confederates led to the Civil War.

They passed on the December 1860 Crittenden Compromise, which would've extended the the Missouri Compromise line to the Pacific Ocean and preserved slavery south if it. It would also have prevented Congress from abolishing slavery. Forever.

They also blew off the February 1861 Peace Conference that offered similar terms.

Congress passed the Corwin Amendment-- the original 13th Amendment--in March 1861, and Lincoln endorsed it in his first inaugural address. It would have made slavery immune to constitutional amendments and to interference by Congress.

The Confederates had plenty of chances to compromise. They passed on them all and chose to start the war.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:12 PM on October 30, 2017 [152 favorites]

"The lack of an ability to [3/5ths] compromise led to the Civil War"
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:16 PM on October 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

As for properly thanking Mueller, can’t we just tweet the FBI and tell them to set up a thing where we can email e-gift cards?

If these guys ever have to pay a dime at whatever coffee shop is close to them, something's wrong with the world.
posted by ctmf at 9:17 PM on October 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Pretty sure Carter page is brad pitt in burn after reading

I'm pretty sure Carter Page is Brad Pitt in True Romance.
posted by Brak at 9:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

I just realized that because I work fairly close to an FBI building, I've likely frequented a coffee shop that agents use.

I will gladly take money to sit at the nearest coffee shop and buy random people who look like FBI agents coffee.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Pretty sure Carter Page is just the pits.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:21 PM on October 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

Pretty sure Carter Page is at all times accompanied by Brad Pitt but only he can see him
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:23 PM on October 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

Chuck Tingle is amazing.
posted by The otter lady at 9:24 PM on October 30, 2017 [29 favorites]

Those "compromises" would have been moral horrors. The only compromise that should have been offered was "give up slavery immediately or we will shoot you until you give up slavery immediately."
posted by Justinian at 9:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [42 favorites]

I realize that you weren't saying they would have been good compromises, kirkaracha. Not aimed at you.
posted by Justinian at 9:26 PM on October 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I have to go to the store tomorrow and buy a whole new bag of Halloween candy because I spent all day and night reading this thread and gorging myself on chocolate bars meant for trick-or-treaters. Thanks guys!
posted by cazoo at 9:37 PM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

As you're drifting off to sleep tonight, remember... somewhere out there, Paul Manafort is tossing and turning, trying to get used to the discomfort of his new ankle bracelet.
posted by MrVisible at 9:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [61 favorites]

I’ve never been so excited thinking about restraints
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 9:51 PM on October 30, 2017 [32 favorites]

Back in the gifs days, I'd post of picture of the pile of empty wrappers next to me. To my credit, I haven't eaten the whole bag. On the other hand, it's 250 pieces, so....
posted by Brak at 10:00 PM on October 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

This Joy Reid dismantling of the uranium nonsense is straight out of The West Wing world.
posted by Caxton1476 at 10:11 PM on October 30, 2017 [51 favorites]

Over twelve hundred comments in less than twenty-four hours. That'll do, Metafilter, that'll do.
posted by Doktor Zed at 10:13 PM on October 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

All In with Chris Hayes presents Carter Page

This video needs to be enshrined in the Library of Congress
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:14 PM on October 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

I guess we should probably start a betting pool on the date when MetaFilter needs two politics threads in a single day, just for the server's sake.
posted by DoctorFedora at 10:15 PM on October 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

How many times does Carter Page shake his head no before immediately saying “maybe...”/“probably...”/“I guess so...”
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 10:18 PM on October 30, 2017

Happy one year anniversary to the New York Times story Investigating Donald Trump, F.B.I. Sees No Clear Link to Russia. There's some reporting that really held up.

I guess we should probably start a betting pool on the date when MetaFilter needs two politics threads in a single day, just for the server's sake.

This happened on Election Day. I will accept it happening again on impeachment day, and no other occasion.
posted by zachlipton at 10:19 PM on October 30, 2017 [47 favorites]

How many times does Carter Page shake his head no before immediately saying “maybe...”/“probably...”/“I guess so...”

Greg Brubaker‏ @twobru 6h6 hours ago
Replying to @Popehat

The endorphin high one gets from ignoring his counsel’s advice to appear on national television must be really intense.

posted by sebastienbailard at 10:20 PM on October 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

Enough.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:25 PM on October 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

Can anyone explain how and when Assange became a Russian asset?

Probably when he started buddying around with Israel Shamir, as this Vox piece so eloquently outlines. In summary, Shamir converted from Judaism to Greek Orthodox and changed his name and started writing anti-Semitic bullshit with titles like Breaking the Conspiracy of the Elders of Zion. A Russian native, he was employed by Assange to disseminate Wikileaks in Russia. The other people who work at Wikileaks (note, not Assange) became very concerned when Shamir started requesting unredacted cables so he could search for the word "Jews." This is was back when Assange and WL still believed in personal privacy, so the request was denied. Then, randomly, Shamir somehow got some unredacted documents and gallivanted off to Belarus to sell US diplomatic cables to the authoritarian government there, deliberately exposing the identities of pro-democracy agitators in the process. Locals complained that people named in the cables had begun to "disappear." Assange didn't care even a little.

The Russians were so thrilled with these developments in Belarus and Assange's dedication to radical transparency they decided to start paying Assange directly by getting him his own show on Russia Today. He apparently enjoyed his time with the Russians so much that he advised Snowden to flee to Russia. He also insists that all of his bodyguards at the embassy be Russian. And when someone else leaked some information about Putin's financial status (The Panama Papers), Assange said THOSE leaks were obviously a US plot.

You should read the whole Vox piece and not just my summary. There are tons of links to other information. The author portrays Assange as a useful idiot, but I am far less forgiving of his shittery. Anyone who continues to be pals with a professional Holocaust denier like Shamir is an asshole. imho.

Assange is a Russian asset.
posted by xyzzy at 11:03 PM on October 30, 2017 [113 favorites]

Found it! Details from a DailyKos post from August, including a Twitter thread by Seth Abramson. At that point, he said we were in "Phase 2" of a process in which Phase 9 is impeachment. We're now in Phase 3.

This is Phase 2 (out of ten), and Phase 2 is the longest phase. Impeachment is Phase 9.
I've said "Phase 2" of the probe will be when Mueller is able to start questioning witnesses like JD Gordon under oath. This is Phase 2. Phase 2 also involves procurement of hard-to-access (rather than voluntarily submitted) financial documents from the U.S. and overseas.
Phase 3, which we *will* get to, is the issuance of many "true bills" (indictments) against minor figures in the probe and Trump aides.
Phase 4 is either the use of testimony from these indicted figures, now cooperating individuals, to indict Trump, or to outline a case.
Phase 5 is what DOJ chooses to do with Mueller's report, in what timeframe and at whose direction at Main Justice (Brand or Rosenstein).
Phase 6 takes place in Congress, as the DOJ referral is debated first in Judiciary then in the House (then possibly in Judiciary again).
Phase 7 is the impeachment vote in the House, Phase 8 the trial for possible conviction in the Senate. Phase 9, the *aftermath* of that.
Phase 10 is the start of whatever administration comes next and key decisions (e.g. pardons) made by Pence, Ryan, Hatch, whoever it is.
In answer to the queries: that's "12 to 18 months" from the day of Mueller's appointment to impeachment. Phase 2 is the longest phase.

posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:50 PM on October 30, 2017 [70 favorites]

Muellerween is truly the most festive time of year.
I made a $5/lb NY Strip and drank 2/3 bottle of wine. Also if you are familiar with Chinese idiom, I cut my steak with a chicken knife
posted by Standard Orange at 12:01 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

Yeah, I described what appears to be going on to my American-politics-following friend as being "like the day after Thanksgiving when all the Christmas decorations go up"
posted by DoctorFedora at 12:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

onion: ‘I’ll Make Those Bastards Pay,’ Teary-Eyed Mueller Whispers Into Locket Containing Photo Of James Comey
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:19 AM on October 31, 2017 [54 favorites]

...Guys. GUYS. No kidding, there is actually James Comey/Robert Mueller Political RPF (Real Person Fic) slash at Archiveofourown. The feeling that I'm stuck in an FX or Showtime premium cable drama has just intensified.

STOP IT GET ME OFF THIS CRAZY BUS
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 12:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [31 favorites]

So, next season will be about a mysterious Greek with Russian connections and a ragtag team of honest Americans (possibly with some British double agents) using a corkboard and twine to follow the money?
posted by mannequito at 1:10 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Jeff Zeleny and Kevin Liptak, CNN: Trump 'seething' as Mueller probe reaches former aides

"The President frequently changes his mind," said one person familiar with the President's legal strategy, "and we are always revisiting every plan."

posted by sebastienbailard at 1:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Thank you D_Orb on reddit for this comment. It is kind of obvious but I never put these pieces together in quite this way:

It's better than that, the whole treason situation is about hillary's emails being given to trump. They basically created the scandal themselves as no one would care about hillarys emails if they hadn't pretended it was such a big deal for years. Further, there wasn't even anything in the content of the emails in the end, Hillary is free and clear. Drumpf is going to prison for hillarys emails and he knows it, he's going to hear about hillarys emails for the remainder of his life, he's never going to hear the end of it.
posted by Meatbomb at 1:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [155 favorites]

Truly it is said, whom the gods would destroy they first drive stupid.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:13 AM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

WaPo says the full sobriquet is "the Count of Monte Cristo," "a reference to the swashbuckling hero of a 19th-century French novel" who also had a habit of showing up out of nowhere with unexplained shitloads of money.

So, the folks who came up with this whimsical nickname, did they read the book to the end? Because ISTR that when people signed onto the Count's suspicious enthusiasm to share the proceeds of one or another use of his unexplained fortune, it didn't usually end well for them.
posted by jackbishop at 3:39 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

With all of his vileness last night, I somehow missed this from Kelly.

Kelly wants investigation into allegations surrounding Clinton
posted by chris24 at 3:42 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Bookmark: https://www.justice.gov/sco, the website of the special counsel's office, for convient access to the indictments yet to come.
posted by ltl at 3:47 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Might be sensible to point an RSS feed generator at that site to plumb it into my RSS reader.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:59 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Ta-Nehisi Coates' tweetstorm on Kelly's mythologizing of Lee and the Confederacy:

Regarding John Kelly's creationist theorizing on Lee and the Civil War, its worth pointing out a few things. Notion that Civil War resulted from a lack of compromise is belied by all the compromises made on enslavement from America's founding. I mean, like, it's called The three fifths compromise for a reason. But it doesn't stand alone. Missouri Compromise. Kansas-Nebraska Act. Lincoln's own platform was a compromise. Lincoln was not an abolitionist. He proposed to limit slavery's expansion, not end it. During the Civil War, Lincoln repeatedly sought to compromise by paying reparations--to slaveholders--and shipping blacks out the country. Explicit compromises don't even get at it. Historian James McPherson points to implicit compromises with slavery. Spirit of "compromise" continued--Lincoln asked only 10 percent of voters in rebel states to sign loyalty oath for readmission to Union. "Compromise" continued long after Lincoln's death. Compromise of 1877 led to explicit White Supremacist rule in the South for a century. As historian David Blight pointed out "compromise" with white supremacy was how the country achieved reunion.

This is really basic stuff--easily accessible, not tucked away in archives somewhere. Shocking that someone charged with defending their country, in some profound way, does not comprehend the country they claim to defend. Notion that we are putting today's standards on the past is, in itself, racist--implies only white, slave-holding, opinions matter. Majority of people living in South Carolina in 1860 were black--they did not need modern white wokeness to tell them slavery was wrong. Majority of people living in Mississippi in 1860 were black. They knew, in their own time, that enslavement was wrong. Half the people living in states like Louisiana, Georgia, Alabama enslaved--knew full well that enslavement was dead wrong. Again, this is not info hidden away in the state archives. Like, it's in the census. You can google it. Praising Bobby Lee as an honorable man is just sad. Like some kid insisting his deadbeat dad is actually a secret agent away on a mission. As [Adam Serwer] points out Lee wasn't some agnostic pressed into War. He was a dude who thought torture was cool. Lee didn't prosecute the war with no regard for White supremacy, his army that kidnapped free blacks and sold them into slavery. Again. This is knowable. Not hard to find out about Lee. You do not have to sit in a Harvard history colloquium to understand the Civil War. But you do have to actually read what the people who started the War actually said. You do have to get these guys were the worst of America. They did not merely want to preserve the right to own people, they wanted to expand that right.

Been a lot of hemming and hawing over the term "white supremacist." Fools who won't be satisfied until Trump literally lynches someone. But, like, when the "adult in the room" believes a war for slavery was honorable...Believes that the torturer of humans, vendor of people, who led that war was honorable...When that dude portrays a sitting member of Congress as some shucking and jiving hustler...When he sticks by that portrayal of a black women, in the face of clear video evidence, when he has so descended into the dream...You really do see the effect of white supremacy. Black people who are as nutty as Kelly and Trump are generally marginalized. Kelly and Trump ended up in the White House. People out here asking me for "hope." Meanwhile, the adult in the room thinks the Easter Bunny caused the Civil War...

posted by zombieflanders at 4:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [237 favorites]

> ....Also, there is NO COLLUSION!

It feels as if he were signing off with this tweet. The similarity to "I am not a crook" can't be unseen. What a fabulous finale that would be.
posted by stonepharisee at 4:49 AM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Washingtonpost: Russia’s outreach to George Papadopoulos went just how spies would have done it

I ran the CIA's Russia operations. Here's what I make of the Trump aide's plea deal.
By Steven L. Hall October 31 at 6:00 AM
Steven L. Hall retired from the CIA in 2015 after 30 years of running and managing Russian operations.

posted by sebastienbailard at 4:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

Donny's really got nothing to combat this. Low energy. SAD!

@realDonaldTrump
The Fake News is working overtime. As Paul Manaforts lawyer said, there was "no collusion" and events mentioned took place long before he...
- ....came to the campaign. Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar. Check the DEMS!

---

Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George. Gonna be great when the wiretaps and emails are released. Oh, and you named that 'low level volunteer' to your 5 person national security advisory team last March and praised him in interviews.
posted by chris24 at 5:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [88 favorites]

> @RealDonaldTrump: The Fake News is working overtime. As Paul Manaforts lawyer said, there was "no collusion" and events mentioned took place long before he... ....came to the campaign. Few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar. Check the DEMS!

*sigh* So much for that idea.
posted by stonepharisee at 5:19 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

So on MSNBC the Morning Joe folks were chatting about how it's open knowledge around the WH press corps that Trump is actively trying to get Jared and Ivanka out of the crime scene and back to New York. Not sure if that's for their safety or some crazy idea that they're less likely to be flipped if they're out of Mueller's direct line of vision.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:25 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

"...George, who has already proven to be a liar."

And what he was proven to be lying about was that there was no collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign. Affirming he's a liar also confirms the collusion.

I realise internal consistency isn't Trump's strong point, but...
posted by Buntix at 5:27 AM on October 31, 2017 [51 favorites]

Quite. I'm reminded of the exchange towards the end of Clear and Present Danger;

Felix Cortez: Whatever this man has told you is a lie. He LIES for a living!
Ernesto Escobedo: He is in the Intelligence business.
Felix Cortez: Exactly.
Ernesto Escobedo: YOU'RE in the Intelligence business!
posted by Molesome at 5:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

@realdonaldtrump I hope people will start to focus on our Massive Tax Cuts for Business (jobs) and the Middle Class (in addition to Democrat corruption)!

i love how he randomly capitalizes words just like every other illiterate failson who inherited daddy's business and thinks he is a brilliant captain of industry

(as opposed to myself, who rarely uses capitalization in order to better convey my tradermark gen-x cynicism and utter disaffection (BRANDING, MOTHERFUCKERS!)
posted by entropicamericana at 5:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [79 favorites]

I picked a hell of a time to be binge watching all 7 seasons of game of thrones.
posted by Annika Cicada at 5:31 AM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Aide: Just keep re-stating the line that there's [air quotes]no collusion[/air quotes]
Trump: Gotcha, [air quotes]no collusion[/air quotes]. [opens Twitter app starts tweeting]
posted by chill at 5:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

A transcript of Donald Trump’s meeting with The Washington Post editorial board from March 21, 2016:

RYAN [That's Frederick Ryan, Jr., Post publisher]: Thank you… We’ve heard you’re going to be announcing your foreign policy team shortly… Any you can share with us?

TRUMP: Well, I hadn’t thought of doing it, but if you want I can give you some of the names… Walid Phares, who you probably know, PhD, adviser to the House of Representatives caucus, and counter-terrorism expert; Carter Page, PhD; George Papadopoulos, he’s an energy and oil consultant, excellent guy;....

posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [72 favorites]

i love how he randomly capitalizes words just like every other illiterate failson who inherited daddy's business and thinks he is a brilliant captain of industry

In his defense, Google Translate probably leaves in the Unusual German Noun Capitalization when he just copy-pastes passages from Mein Kampf.
posted by Mayor West at 5:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

And it's been said before, but "My campaign manager did all his crimes for the hostile foreign power who hacked our election way before I hired him" is maybe not the best defense for Mr. The Best People.
posted by chris24 at 5:40 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

As Paul Manaforts lawyer said, there was "no collusion"

Dude, why are you trying to use that as some sort of evidence? That's the lawyer's job to say. If the lawyer said he was guilty, he'd be fired!
posted by greermahoney at 5:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

Dude, why are you trying to use that as some sort of evidence? That's the lawyer's job to say. If the lawyer said he was guilty, he'd be fired!

When you don't have any kind of intellectual hammer, once in a while you are going to publicly headbutt a nail.
posted by jaduncan at 5:42 AM on October 31, 2017 [38 favorites]

Meanwhile, the adult in the room thinks the Easter Bunny caused the Civil War...

Well...
posted by halation at 5:43 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Trump: As Paul Manaforts lawyer said, there was "no collusion"

PM's lawyer: President Donald Trump was correct. There is no evidence the Trump Campaign colluded with the Russia government.

Inceptreason.
posted by chris24 at 5:43 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

Further, there wasn't even anything in the content of the emails in the end, Hillary is free and clear. Drumpf is going to prison for hillarys emails

Oppo Papadroppoulos
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

I wish I was as certain, but at least some people are saying the right things.

@StevenTDennis
Collins said she's certain Congress would act if Trump fires Mueller. She noted after Nixon fired Archibald Cox, investigation continued.
posted by chris24 at 5:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Apropos of not much. Last night AU time. I was following things hoping for some news, and eventually gave up and went to bed at this point in the current timeline.

This is where I stopped last night:

And also. I will piss my pants laughing with glee if Obama ends up being the thing that brings him down.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 7:47 PM on October 30 [9 favorites −] [!]

The next post:

It's Manafort.
posted by Dalby at 7:55 PM on October 30 [78 favorites +] [!]

And the universe gave me many hours of sleep I would have missed if I'd stayed awake an additional eight minutes.

It's a hopeful sign that the "end of the beginning" of the 30 years shit storm destroying the USA might be happening. It's also hopeful that the shit storm wrecking Australian politics and social discourse might be disintegrating.

Long, hard yards ahead. But maybe. Maybe? Things can turn.
posted by michswiss at 5:53 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

Aaaaaaand he's up and tweeting. I have a feeling Trump's legal team will soon be part of the opioid epidemic if they're not already because if I had to deal with a client this fucking feckless, I'd be shooting up in the Dish Room.

Not for nothing, but I live in PA where we had ~ 4,642 opioid related deaths last year, a 35% increase, and I work for a Center that is working desperately to train primary care providers to better integrate behavioral health into their practices along with medication assisted treatment (MAT) therapies and I would super love it if you could refrain from using the epidemic as a punchline.
posted by lazaruslong at 6:00 AM on October 31, 2017 [42 favorites]

LOOK YOU PEOPLE, LEAVE THAT ANGRY, OLD TANGERINE ALONE.

It wasn't collusion, it was obedience.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:00 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'm finding it rather coincidental that both Twitter and Facebook are admitting to more Russian influence than they had before at the same time these first indictments and a guilty plea are happening.

Both are appearing on Capitol Hill (this week?) to talk about that.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:03 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

National Review: Don’t Fire, Don’t Pardon

If Trump fired Mueller in reaction to all this, he would take a matter that now is at the edges of his world — Manafort has already been gingerly tossed under the bus, and no one knows Papadopoulos —and make it a truly all-consuming crisis. And for what? As a practical matter, there is no way to end the investigation. If Mueller is dismissed, all the special counsel’s materials will presumably be handed over to Congress, and he would, at some point, be a lead witness in impeachment hearings.

The option of pre-emptively pardoning everyone targeted by Mueller also is foolhardy. A Trump pardon of Manafort would associate the president with the lobbyist’s alleged malfeasance when the point should be to establish distance, and would convince everyone that Trump has something explosive to hide.

The calculus here isn’t complicated. If Trump is guilty of serious wrongdoing, there is nothing he can do to stop it from being uncovered. If, on the other hand, he’s innocent, firing Mueller would be a catastrophic error.

posted by chris24 at 6:03 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Well, I'm glad Collins is sure congress would act IF he fired Mueller. Here's a novel idea: ACT NOW SINCE IT'S BEEN A COMPLETE SHITSHOW REGARDLESS OF MUELLER.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 6:05 AM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

This whole thing has been a long series of catastrophic unforced errors. I don’t know why they would change course now.
posted by zrail at 6:06 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Anything Collins says right now about how Congress would act if Trump is even more obviously corrupt in public should be taken as what it is: empty words in an attempt to retain credibility as the "reasonable" portion of the GOP, which she hopes to never have to actually act on. By all the evidence so far, even if Trump fires Mueller the GOP will back him to the hilt. There has been zero evidence of them going against him, I'm not going to start imagining it at this point.
posted by tocts at 6:09 AM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

• George Papadopoulos has now pleaded guilty to a felony he committed on January 27th 2017.
• The felony was that Papadopoulos lied to investigators working for James Comey's FBI. The investigation was regarding the Russian government's interference in the 2016 US presidential election.
• Such an investigation would of course have an interest in investigating and prosecuting attempts to mislead and undermine the investigation.
• On May 9th 2017, President Trump fired FBI Director James Comey, purportedly because he was advised to do so by his Attorneys General, on the basis that Comey was unfair and incompetent in his dealings with Hillary Clinton.
• On May 11th 2017, President Trump was interviewed by NBC's Lester Holt and admitted that he was going to fire Comey regardless of the recommendation of the Attorneys General, saying, "in fact when I decided to just do it, I said to myself, I said 'you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story'".
• Therefore, we now have proof that by obstructing the Comey's FBI investigation into Russian interference, President Trump was not obstructing an investigation into "a made-up story". He was obstructing an investigation into one or more felonies.
• Obstruction of justice is itself a felony.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [113 favorites]

... low level volunteer named George...

...who was not in any kind of National Security Meeting with me or Jeff Sessions at all!
posted by PenDevil at 6:12 AM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

What I am loving about the Papadopoulos thing this morning is that, OK, his first FBI interviews were in January and February, and he was arrested in July. Which means during the whole time in the spring that Trump was fucking with Comey before shitcanning him, Comey was gathering up much of the evidence on Papadopoulos that got him dead to rights.

Like, Trump would call up Comey and try to strongarm him and pump him for information, and Comey would say "Uh huh, Mr. President," hang up, roll his eyes at the phone, and then go read a bunch of stuff about Papadopoulous finding out about the Hillary emails from his Russian-connected handler in April 2016.

Ha HA hahahahaha HA hahahaha, Don.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:14 AM on October 31, 2017 [77 favorites]

CT Senator (and former CT AG) with some cheerful news.

@kylegriffin1
Richard Blumenthal on MSNBC: We can expect many more indictments. "It's the end of the beginning, not the beginning of the end."

---

And NE Senator Sasse tweeted support for Mueller this morning.

@BenSasse
Still true. - my statement on Bob Mueller, an honorable man and a true public servant -

"Robert Mueller is an exceptional public servant -- from his days as a decorated Marine, through his years as a federal prosecutor, to his time as head of the criminal division and then as Acting Deputy Attomey General, and then onto his twelve years of principled leadership as the Director of the FBI. His record, character, and trustworthiness have been lauded for decades by Republicans and Democrats alike."

posted by chris24 at 6:19 AM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Metafilter: « Older ｈａ－ｈａ－ｈａ－ＨＡ　ｈａ．．． | I think therefore I am .. better? Newer »
posted by michswiss at 6:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [31 favorites]

Jared Yates Sexton @JYSexton posted a tweetstorm yesterday morning about how America's wilful disbelief of Trump's monstrousness left it so vulnerable to him:

It's important to reiterate, when people like me were talking about Manafort and Russia in July 2016, everyone screamed conspiracy. 1/
The evidence was out there in the open. Wikileaks, the RNC platform, the NATO criticism. But no one wanted to admit it. 2/
The reason? Because no one wanted to believe how ethically bankrupt Trump was. He didn't fit the American narrative. 3/
Everyone believed that someone like Trump couldn't become president, that nothing like this could ever happen. 4/
They underestimated his ability to break norms and willingness to step over lines. They wanted to believe history would take care of this 5/
Trump has continually succeeded because he lives outside people's expectations. It's the politics, it's the racism, the audacity. 6/
He was about to run the most toxic campaign in history in the open and break every norm and law because no one wanted to believe he would 7/
We live in unbelievable times. We have to start considering unbelievable things and not be so narrowed by history. Trump isn't. 8/8 {emphasis added}

And then the Papadopoulos news broke...

P.S. David Simon (of the Wire) @aodespair: "When hunting for metaphor, a true sportsman lowers his rifle from a hurt, lethargic or easy target. We shall speak of this photo no more."
posted by Doktor Zed at 6:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [91 favorites]

That kid in the skeleton costume (picture above of the Trump Halloween) reminds me of little thebrokedown, playing "Ghost of Christmas Future" in A Christmas Carol. I had no lines; I simply extended a bony finger of warning. Hark, this will be what happens if you do not change your ways! Scrooge was written to heed the warnings. Trump is written ... poorly.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

...who was not in any kind of National Security Meeting with me or Jeff Sessions at all!

Speaking of Sessions and meetings.

Scott Shane in the NY Times "Trump Campaign Got Early Word Russia Had Democrats’ Emails" reports that at a March 31st meeting, attended by both Trump and Sessions, according to an anonymous staffer Papadopoulos "spoke for a few minutes about his Russian contacts and the prospects for a meeting with the Russian president." Sessions was definitely paying attention as he spoke and "shut George down" and said, "I’d prefer that nobody speak about this again".

So it's hard to square that with Sessions sworn testimony that he was not aware of anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign being in contact with the Russian government.
posted by papercrane at 6:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [110 favorites]

So it's hard to square that with Sessions sworn testimony that he was not aware of anyone affiliated with the Trump campaign being in contact with the Russian government.

Yeah, there's definitely an 18 USC 1001 charge in there somewhere for Jeff Sessions. If not more, given that he was the chairman of the committee with Mike Flynn, G-Pop and Carter-Fucking-Page on it...
posted by mikelieman at 6:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

Nothing about Sessions is hard and square
posted by Namlit at 6:39 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

And now the requisite reminder that when people say "wow this Russia shit sure came out of nowhere" they are lying.

You know who knew and told us, repeatedly? Hillary Goddamn Clinton.
posted by lydhre at 6:40 AM on October 31, 2017 [122 favorites]

I just called both my Republican Senators' DC offices and asked whether they thought the President was a good President. (Response: the senator has not released any recent statements on that.) I outlined what I believe is proof that the President committed felony obstruction of justice, and said that if they care about their country, they should call on the President to resign immediately, because he is a criminal. It was cathartic!
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 6:42 AM on October 31, 2017 [38 favorites]

White House chief of staff John Kelly calls for special counsel to probe Democrats

Pardon me, but why on earth is the person in charge of managing White House staff calling for anything? Even under this stupid administration he seems way out of line here.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:43 AM on October 31, 2017 [73 favorites]

I have a friend of a friend. He is by all accounts, a very smart person. He is/was a Bernie supporter, but couldn't get behind Hillary, and contemplated voting green party, but I think saw the error in his ways there wrt Jill Stein being a hack.

However, he was incredulous at best about any Russian interference and basically argued during the election, and into Trump's administration that the Russian angle was a dead end, cooked up by out of touch Democratic party members.

He hasn't said much about Russian interference at all in the past 3 months and I haven't asked him yet how the crow tastes.
posted by Twain Device at 6:45 AM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

We live in unbelievable times. We have to start considering unbelievable things and not be so narrowed by history. Trump isn't. 8/8

Once your faith, sir, persuades you to believe what your intelligence declares to be absurd, beware lest you likewise sacrifice your reason in the conduct of your life. In days gone by, there were people who said to us: "You believe in incomprehensible, contradictory and impossible things because we have commanded you to; now then, commit unjust acts because we likewise order you to do so." Nothing could be more convincing. Certainly any one who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices. If you do not use the intelligence with which God endowed your mind to resist believing impossibilities, you will not be able to use the sense of injustice which God planted in your heart to resist a command to do evil. Once a single faculty of your soul has been tyrannized, all the other faculties will submit to the same fate.

- Voltaire.

Or the more succinct .sig version: "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities".

Unfortunately the term 'dignity wraith' wasn't around when he wrote it.
posted by Buntix at 6:45 AM on October 31, 2017 [77 favorites]

Pardon me, but why on earth is the person in charge of managing White House staff calling for anything?

Kelly is the absolute worst, clearly, but part of managing White House "staff" is managing the President's crazy moods, and if the leaks from the leakier era (_{<3 you Reince, miss you, call me}) are reflective at all of the current state of the Oval Office, Trump is yelling a lot at his underlings insisting that they go out in public and defend him with wacky lies, like that the real collusion is between the DNC and the Russians, etc. So Kelly goes out there and says it, to keep the most dangerous man in the world from doing something even more stupid.
posted by dis_integration at 6:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

We need an updated version of that Republication versus Democrat indictment/conviction chart that went around the previous thread... or was it this thread? Can't keep up.

I was looking for that anyway to share (forgot to favorite it):
zug's comment in the previous thread
I neglected to notice before that those numbers do not include the current administration. (We're gonna need a bigger chart!)
It does provide a good demonstration of the 'both sides do it' argument.
posted by MtDewd at 6:55 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

In other news, here's Carter Page stating on 12 Dec 2016 that he did indeed meet with Rosneft people.

I'm sure he just forgot to mention that in future statements.
posted by jaduncan at 6:56 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump
As Paul Manaforts lawyer said, there was "no collusion"

Is that the same lawyer who was subpoenaed and now lost his attorney-client privilege with Manafort? Not sure that's the guy you want to turn to for credibility right now.
posted by p3t3 at 6:59 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump
The biggest story yesterday, the one that has the Dems in a dither, is Podesta running from his firm. What he know about Crooked Dems is........earth shattering. He and his brother could Drain The Swamp, which would be yet another campaign promise fulfilled. Fake News weak!

DITHER? Dude has the vocabulary of a 5 year old. This has to be Scavino tweeting. "Fake News weak!" seems like an attempt by Scavino, himself an idiot, to mimic his boss's caveman talk.
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:14 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

Not the same lawyer.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:14 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

zachlipton: Google on Tuesday is expected to acknowledge for the first time that its platforms were also compromised, revealing that Russian trolls uploaded over a thousand videos to YouTube on 18 different channels.

That's an odd use of the word "compromised" -- it sounds like Russian propaganda got put up there with the rest of the hundreds of hours of videos uploaded every minute, from teenagers goofing with their friends to TED talks, and a dozen other kinds of propaganda and conspiracy theory nonsense that was funny before 2017.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:15 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

dither! *cackling*

Daniel Dale with a gently Canadian hot take: "This is not extremely coherent"
posted by marshmallow peep at 7:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

They're just like regular Nazi youtubers!
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Yesterday Huckabee Sanders posited that Manafort was just a "delegate wrangler" and the Shep Smith excerpt posted above claimed the same thing so I'm curious since corb was at the Republican Convention, did she see him in action?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

How do we turn all of this knowledge about disinformation--through Facebook ads, twitter bots, youtube channels, russian-organized white nationalist protests--into some sort of vaccine? We need to be inoculated against this kind of interference in the future through means that I think will have to be both legal and cultural.

We really do need an independent commission into all of this, but I don't know how that can happen while there are 5 different investigations going on.
posted by Room 101 at 7:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Y'know, these indictments have nothing to say about the obstruction of justice in the firing of Comey. I think that's going to be the last card played, and it'll be an unbeatable royal flush. Read 'em and weep. Kick the last nail in. He just needs to tie the collusion to the obstruction, and he has Trump.

This is my favorite gif right now.
posted by adept256 at 7:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

The Daily 202: 10 takeaways from Mueller’s shock-and-awe gambit (James Hohmann with Breanne Deppisch and Joanie Greve, Washington Post)

Rather dense with factoids and ideas gleaned from sources all over.

7. Unsealing the guilty plea was an insurance policy that makes it politically untenable for Trump to fire Mueller.

Most congressional Republicans stayed silent in the face of the news (more on that below), but a handful of key lawmakers on the right telegraphed that firing Mueller would cross an unacceptable red line. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) said in a statement said “it's important to let our legal system run its course”: “It’s good to see the Justice Department taking seriously its responsibility to enforce [FARA].”

“He’s not going to be fired by the president,” Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-Utah) said of Mueller. “Because I know him. He knows that’d be a stupid move.”

posted by ZeusHumms at 7:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

How do we turn all of this knowledge about disinformation--through Facebook ads, twitter bots, youtube channels, russian-organized white nationalist protests--into some sort of vaccine?

There is no way to do this without flipping over the twin rocks of the realities of online advertising (a rigged game reliant on bots and clickfarming) and engagement numbers (a rigged game reliant on bots, paid trolls, and clickfarming). Silicon Valley will fight tooth and nail to prevent this from happening.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:35 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

However, he was incredulous at best about any Russian interference and basically argued during the election, and into Trump's administration that the Russian angle was a dead end, cooked up by out of touch Democratic party members.

Several of my otherwise-favorite left news aggregators were pushing the "there was no Russian interference or collusion" line very very hard literally until the end of last week. Now they seem to have flipped to "this is happening" with no intervening "whoops, looks like we were wrong". Of course, one of them also took the "Trump will be better than Hillary because he will protect Medicare and is an isolationist" line, which was so spectacularly stupid as to beggar belief, so what can you expect.

But it's really made me think about how strongly cultural factors influence political beliefs. In my opinion, the drive to say that Russian interference was just a story told by the Democrats was basically a cultural drive - it wasn't cool or socially acceptable in large parts of the left to hold this view, because it was seen as pro-Democratic Party*. Assessing all the facts or looking at the history of Russian and American interference in elections was not cool either. I think a factor was that Snowden fled to Russia, and Assange is still inexplicably popular despite being a creep, so people felt - not thought, felt - that believing that Russia would interfere was somehow a smear on Snowden or by extension on people like Manning or whistleblowers generally.

I also think that we're deeply in thrall to the idea that there needs to be a hero or a leader - if it's not the US, it has to be some other strong state. If it's not a US politician, it needs to be Putin or some other guy (pretty much always a guy). In this one respect, it's like the Cold War - people who should know better think that because Washington is bad, Moscow must be terrific.

It's really sobering. It made me reflect, in fact, that I've been avoiding certain types of political activism here because I have a sort of politico-aesthetic distaste for the groups that organize them, even though participating would not require me to, like, sign onto the groups' agendas or speak and write as they do. Even though I support the immediate activism, I've avoided doing it for cultural/social reasons.

*As distinct from the more usual position of "I wish we had a lefter party and I am skeptical of wealthy Democratic leaders, but I will vote for them because that's the best available option".
posted by Frowner at 7:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [55 favorites]

“Because I know him. He knows that’d be a stupid move.”

Well, talk about waving the red flag in front of the bull... Now I'd put money down on tweet-firing at 3am on Saturday morning.
posted by TwoStride at 7:39 AM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

chris24: @yashar
General Kelly tells Laura Ingraham that the Mueller probe "should wrap up soon."

Sarah Huckabee Sanders also said this repeatedly yesterday in the brief presser, and when asked how she knew, she mentioned some unnamed sources. Wishful thinking, trying to shape reality to your whims, or has time (and/or words) become meaningless to those who work so closely with Trump?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:40 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) said in a statement said “it's important to let our legal system run its course”

Also yesterday, Chuck choosing flight over fight: Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa) on Monday went as far as to clamber through a row of American flags — nearly toppling them over — to squeeze his way out of a press conference where reporters [were asking about the indictments]
posted by Rust Moranis at 7:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

Sarah Huckabee Sanders also said this repeatedly yesterday in the brief presser, and when asked how she knew, she mentioned some unnamed sources. Wishful thinking, trying to shape reality to your whims, or has time (and/or words) become meaningless to those who work so closely with Trump?

They just say whatever they need to say. I don't think it's that words are meaningless, it's that they are mere instruments. "True" and "false" aren't relevant; it's "will this collection of words make people do what I want right now this minute". And what she wanted was to get through the presser without generating any embarrassing sound-bites.
posted by Frowner at 7:43 AM on October 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

Wishful thinking, trying to shape reality to your whims, or has time (and/or words) become meaningless

Pretty much the entire Republican strategy since 1994, yep.
posted by Rykey at 7:44 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Wishful thinking, trying to shape reality to your whims, or has time (and/or words) become meaningless

I think to the build the expectation that it's almost over so when it continues, they can attack it for going on forever. Part of the witch hunt strategy.
posted by chris24 at 7:46 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

soren_lorensen: Not-Republicans on my FB all "but Tony Podesta you guys!"

Yeah, let's focus on what's really important here.

I hate to bring it up, but NPR also threw out a bit like Politico's story, linked by zachlipton: Politico: Tony Podesta (John's brother) is stepping down from the Podesta Group lobbying firm.

Hey NPR, you're drive-time radio, don't throw out random asides that lead nowhere because not everyone will be fully paying attention, or listening to the whole segment.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:46 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Laura Ingraham, new face of the FOX/Republican mainstream, who Seig Heils on stage.
posted by Artw at 7:46 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

So Kelly goes out there and says it, to keep the most dangerous man in the world from doing something even more stupid.

No, he goes out there and says it because he is morally bankrupt. And unless he has suffered a recent neurological insult, must have always been morally bankrupt.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:47 AM on October 31, 2017 [25 favorites]

Jared Yates Sexton... when people like me were talking about Manafort and Russia in July 2016, everyone screamed conspiracy.
1/
The evidence was out there in the open. Wikileaks, the RNC platform, the NATO criticism. But no one wanted to admit it.
2/
The reason? Because no one wanted to believe how ethically bankrupt Trump was.

Evil imp in my head is screaming -- "Well, he wore an American flag pin and a red hat full of pseudo-patriotic promises. Aren't those proof, proof, that he has a pure heart and loves us all?" /end frothing sarcasm
posted by puddledork at 7:47 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

@realdonaldtrump I hope people will start to focus on our Massive Tax Cuts for Business (jobs) and the Middle Class (in addition to Democrat corruption)!

i love how he randomly capitalizes words just like every other illiterate failson who inherited daddy's business and thinks he is a brilliant captain of industry

Also like my slowly going downhill rapidly (I know, I know) in the mental department grandmother.
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:47 AM on October 31, 2017

'None Of This Is Real': Conservative Media Reacts To Mueller Indictments

But Limbaugh, one of the most influential voices on the right, worked quickly to reframe the day's developments. "None of this is real," he insisted. When a listener suggested Mueller had "gone rogue" and might be trying to topple Trump, Limbaugh amplified the fear. "This is the coup. If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, other than they still put Trump in jail as a message to the outsider: Don't dare try this."

posted by zakur at 7:49 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

How do we turn all of this knowledge about disinformation--through Facebook ads, twitter bots, youtube channels, russian-organized white nationalist protests--into some sort of vaccine? We need to be inoculated against this kind of interference in the future through means that I think will have to be both legal and cultural.

One of my friends has taken to regularly posting stylized comments on FB posts by a Russian troll account in an attempt to burn the source's credibility. It's a start.
posted by scalefree at 7:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Frowner, I went to copypasta some bits of your comment but it was too hard and I'd like to cosign all of it.

It me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

General Kelly tells Laura Ingraham that the Mueller probe "should wrap up soon."

Sarah Huckabee Sanders also said this repeatedly yesterday in the brief presser, and when asked how she knew, she mentioned some unnamed sources. Wishful thinking, trying to shape reality to your whims, or has time (and/or words) become meaningless to those who work so closely with Trump?

I'm reading it as attempt to de-legitimatize the ongoing work of the probe; six months from now they can point back to the fact that it is still going as some kind of problem, because geez, this should've been wrapped up quick guys, like we said - obviously Mueller has overstepped his mandate or something...
posted by nubs at 7:55 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, other than they still put Trump in jail as a message to the outsider: Don't dare try this.

Ladies and gentlemen, the mouthpiece of the Law and Order party.
posted by Rykey at 7:57 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

We have to start considering unbelievable things and not be so narrowed by history. Trump isn't.

That will be because he doesn't know any; not even, if you give 10% credence to 10% of the things that come out of his mouth, his own.
posted by flabdablet at 7:58 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Way upthread, melissasaurus pointed out that Sam Clovis [Papadopoulos' "campaign supervisor"] is the current nominee for undersecretary of agriculture. But I hadn't appreciated quite how delicious the story is.

Today's Daily 202 item 2:

Sam Clovis is about to be in the hot seat.

The former Iowa radio host and social conservative activist is awaiting Senate confirmation to serve in the Agriculture Department’s top scientific post. His confirmation hearing is expected next month. ... Several references in court filings to “the campaign supervisor” refer to the former radio host from Iowa, who served as Trump’s national campaign co-chairman.

I don't see how that confirmation hearing goes through: it would be a full three-ring circus, with all sorts of embarrassing questions on live TV, at least from the Democratic senators. I bet they quietly pull the nomination.

If so, at least one small act of wanton sabotage by Trump - a conservative talk show host taking over a scientific job - is going to be prevented, thanks to Russian collusion (and Mueller's work). A tiny reprieve for science.

(Although didn't I hear something about how Trump's nominees were just showing up to work without waiting for Senate confirmation in some cases?)
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:01 AM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

> Several of my otherwise-favorite left news aggregators were pushing the "there was no Russian interference or collusion" line very very hard literally until the end of last week. Now they seem to have flipped to "this is happening" with no intervening "whoops, looks like we were wrong".

At least they're flipping when the evidence advances beyond the point where a reasonable person could construct some alternate explanation for all of the links between Russian actors and POTUS45's senior campaign and executive branch staff. Partial credit for that, as compared to stooges like Glenn Greenwald, who is all over the Podesta false equivalence, and is even pushing weak, easily rebutted takes about how there's nothing to see in the Papadopolous story.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:02 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

"Their answer thus far is to pretend that worst scandal in American history – a presidential candidate’s team colluding with a hostile foreign power to undermine popular trust in the electoral process and deliver a victory – never happened." — "Midnight at Mar-a-Lago: The walls close in on Genghis Con," David Faris, Informed Comment.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:07 AM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

as compared to stooges like Glenn Greenwald, who is all over the Podesta false equivalence, and is even pushing weak, easily rebutted takes about how there's nothing to see in the Papadopolous story.

The word is "Russian asset".
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:08 AM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Are we done pretending Greenwald is anything other than Assamge in glasses and a false moustache? That dude has been bullshit for decades.
posted by Artw at 8:10 AM on October 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

zakur: But Limbaugh, one of the most influential voices on the right, worked quickly to reframe the day's developments. "None of this is real," he insisted. When a listener suggested Mueller had "gone rogue" and might be trying to topple Trump, Limbaugh amplified the fear. "This is the coup. If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, other than they still put Trump in jail as a message to the outsider: Don't dare try this."

Ohohohohoho ... thanks for the Halloween giggles. Let's take apart that bolded statement:

1) The coup is ... making white men follow the law? OK, carry on.
2) So right you are, if Hillary would have been elected, this wouldn't be happening.
3) Except Donald would be in jail? We don't jail dissidents for no cause, Limmy, so let's pretend you realize this is very real and he's a very bad person.
4) Hey, isn't that the kind of harsh penalties you like to see on people of color and the poor? Toss 'em in jail and throw away the key, so none of the other minorities or poors get uppity, amirite?

In summary: Trump had this coming either way, and Rush is sad that white dudes are getting treated like actual criminals for once.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

Here's a(nother) thing I don't get about everyone involved in this clusterfuck...I am sure every lawyer involved has told their client(s) to SHUT THE FUCK UP. Why can't anyone involved just keep their mouth closed? It's problematic and, in particular, super problematic when the client is the president.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Spooky Halloween Political Fun: a comprehensive analysis of Coroner Elections in America...
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:12 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Hubris and stupidity. Stubris.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2017 [37 favorites]

If they were smart in the way that avoiding a determined FBI investigation requires you to be smart (as opposed to the kind of smart you use to gin up violent racists) this whole thing would have gone very differently.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

(Although didn't I hear something about how Trump's nominees were just showing up to work without waiting for Senate confirmation in some cases?)

Politico: Trump Nominees Show up for Work Without Waiting for Senate Approval. They're trying to get around the Federal Vacancies Reform Act (two at the Environmental Protection Agency, one at the State Department, and one at the Office of Management and Budget).
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

I am sure every lawyer involved has told their client(s) to SHUT THE FUCK UP. Why can't anyone involved just keep their mouth closed? It's problematic and, in particular, super problematic when the client is the president.

Their lawyers are grifters too. Client gaffs = more billable hours. They don't care what actually happens to their clients after the check clears.
posted by melissasaurus at 8:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Rush Limbaugh: "If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, other than they still put Trump in jail as a message to the outsider: Don't dare try this."

"If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, except all of it."
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:19 AM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

Every fucking thing has to be a dominance play though - they can't just be quiet crooks, they have to be blatant crooks, boast about it and demonstrate that nobody can do anything about it. The playground bully shit is hardwired, and probably even more important in this than their stupidity and incompetence. After all, they are showing they don't HAVE to be compitent.

Odds are it'll work for them in the long run.
posted by Artw at 8:19 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

Hubris and stupidity. Stubris.

Hupidity rolls off the tongue better.
posted by radwolf76 at 8:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

Hubris and stupidity. Stubris.

When you deliberately seek out fuckups because you want to fuck things up you end up fucking up your attempts to systematically fuck things up.
posted by srboisvert at 8:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Am I supposed to start buying a narrative whereby Chief of Staff General Kelly is going on TV and lying and being incredibly racist solely because he would otherwise be fired by his boss, but not because he selfishly wants to keep his job but because
he would be rendered unable to personally prevent his boss doing terrible things, and his successor might be less capable of doing so? This doesn't survive Occam's Play-Doh Spatula.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:23 AM on October 31, 2017 [54 favorites]

Government doesntworkception
posted by flabdablet at 8:23 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

In some less surreal timeline, I'd say the racist comments by Kelly were said intentionally to take attention away from his boss. But in this timeline, he's just truthfully expressing what he believes.

TFW you try to be a hero and jump on a grenade except you are the grenade.
posted by srboisvert at 8:24 AM on October 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

They're trying to get around the Federal Vacancies Reform Act

They're trying to get around the Federal Vacancies Reform Act after winning a landmark Supreme Court decision last year to put in place the very interpretation they're now defying. Under Clinton, Bush 2 and Obama it was common practice to have your nominee serve as the acting head of whatever office he/she was scheduled to run full-time, but SCOTUS, with the support of the congressional GOP, put the kibosh on that. Now they're doing the same goddamn thing, but shadier.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:24 AM on October 31, 2017 [56 favorites]

Sol Wisenberg, a white-collar criminal defense attorney who was deputy independent counsel under Ken Starr during the Clinton administration, on NPR yesterday:

Well, the only thing I know for sure is that it's going to keep on going. You know, there's no way it's not going to. What this does is send a signal. This is an unusually early prosecution by a special counsel. So it sends a signal that we're working, we're working hard, we know what we're doing, and you better look out for us.

Also, Papadopoulos's plea deal was "a very simple, straightforward plea deal" that would have been quick to arrange, so Mueller's team was likely working with him for around two months now.

More on George from NPR: Philip Bump of The Washington Post notes that George was "a young man who was tapped by the Trump campaign in early 2016, early March, to serve as a foreign policy advisor," but despite that direct selection, "It seems like this foreign policy advisory committee was actually formed in part just to sort of boost Trump's own credentials on foreign policy," and that Papadopoulos was contacted by Russians to get access to Trump, which minimizes George's role and limits the implications on Trump and others.

Still, this was one of two tracks into the Trump campaign from the Russians, with the 2nd being that Trump Tower meeting in June 2016 that involved Donald Trump Jr. and Paul Manafort, so there's no way that the Trump campaign can say "it was just some junior associate whose credentials were participation in the Model U.N." and be done with it.

(Also: I haven't seen anyone mention Trump's Russian (Money) Laundromat in this most recent discussion, so it seems like Mueller's two big plays on Trump would be 1. the firing of Comey as obstruction of justice, and 2. numerous financial charges.)
posted by filthy light thief at 8:25 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

Maybe the President lies and is incredibly racist because he has a plan to destroy the right-wing and usher in fully-automated gay space communism
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

Why can't anyone involved just keep their mouth closed?

I think a telling moment was a few months ago when some leaked information made it clear that at least some people in the administration viewed this as primary a public relations problem, saying things like how some legislative victories would keep them ahead of this story in the news cycle.

If you've spent your career making various legal problems go away with bluster and money I can see how the current situation might be a bit bewildering.
posted by LastOfHisKind at 8:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

New extra spooooky PPP Poll:

49% support impeachment, 41% oppose
7 point T approval decline in last month: now 38/56
Congressional approval: 9%. Mitch McConnell approval: 11%. Paul Ryan approval: 22%.
32% of Trump voters believe he is not the most accomplished president in american history.
18% of Trump voters think Putin wanted Trump to win in 2016.

Voters think Trump is scarier than ghosts (49/40), vampires (48/40), mummies (also 48/40), witches (49/42), zombies (46/43), and werewolves (45/44). The devil is still scarier at 51/31.
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:27 AM on October 31, 2017 [49 favorites]

Just to be clear, do they mean Putin by that?
posted by Artw at 8:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Wiki: Shortly before the committee undertook its impeachment votes, a Harris Poll showed that 53 percent of Americans supported an impeachment of Nixon by the House. The same poll showed that 47 percent thought he should be convicted in a Senate trial, 34 percent thought he should be acquitted, and the rest were unsure. A Gallup Poll taken around the same time revealed that Nixon's favorability rating had fallen to 24 percent.

These numbers are gettable. Let's get them.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

GOP senators dismiss calls for bill to protect Mueller from Trump (Jordain Carney for The Hill, Oct. 30, 2017)

Senate Republicans, including some of President Trump’s sharpest GOP critics, are rebuffing Democratic demands to pass legislation protecting special counsel Robert Mueller as his investigation into the 2016 presidential election ramps up.

"I can't imagine any administration taking a move like that," Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) told reporters Monday when asked if legislation to shield Mueller from a potential firing was necessary.
...
But Republicans argue the legislation isn't needed for now, because they don't believe Trump would fire or try to have the Department of Justice fire Mueller, who is widely respected in Washington.

"There's no indication that he's going to ... fire [Mueller] or pardon [anyone] at this point," said Sen. Jeff Flake (R-Ariz.), who, like Corker, has feuded openly with Trump and is not seeking reelection in 2018.

Pressed if that means he doesn't think legislation is necessary, Flake added: "We'll see."

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) also downplayed the chances that Mueller would get fired, saying no one in their "right mind" would fire the special counsel.

"I don’t feel an urgent need to pass that law until you show me that Mr. Mueller is in jeopardy," he told reporters on Monday evening.

Senators have offered two bills that would get the court system involved with any attempt by the Justice Department to fire Mueller.

One proposed bill, from Graham and Democratic Sen. Cory Booker (N.J.), would require a judge to approve a Justice Department request to fire Mueller or any other special counsel.

A second bill, from GOP Sen. Thom Tillis (N.C.) and Democratic Sen. Chris Coons (Del.), would let Mueller or any special counsel challenge their firing in court.

Democrats, because they are in the minority, will need the support of at least a dozen Republicans to round up the 60 votes needed to get a bill through the Senate.

Oh Graham, when will you pronounce that Trump is not in his right mind? Ah, I see now - that would require that you actually take action against him, instead of saying your concerned or whatnot. Surprisingly, your voting record is a "low" 88.5% agreement with Trump.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

If a judge thinks that your lawyer is helping you commit a crime, attorney-client privilege is out the window.

I'm an expert on this because I watch a lot of Law & Order. Jack McCoy's friend Paul was a mob lawyer and Jack was able to prove Paul was a participant in the crimes. Paul got fucked.

Obligatory Arrested Development connection: Paul's wife was played by Jessica Walters.
posted by Horselover Fat at 8:31 AM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94: These numbers are gettable. Let's get them.

But I thought we didn't trust polls any more? Or is it science that is suspicious? Numbers in general? I don't know what anything means.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:32 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I don't think it's that words are meaningless, it's that they are mere instruments.

I think it was Wittgenstein who said that knowing how to use a word is like knowing how a Chutes & Ladders piece moves
posted by thelonius at 8:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

> Metafilter: I don't know what anything means.
posted by giraffeneckbattle at 8:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

18% of Trump voters think Putin wanted Trump to win in 2016.

This is one o' them shibboleths ain't it. Responding falsely not because you believe your falsehood but because your willingness to tell such a white lie identifies you as part of the tribe.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:34 AM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

white lie lol
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:35 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

it was common practice to have your nominee serve as the acting head of whatever office he/she was scheduled to run full-time, but SCOTUS, with the support of the congressional GOP, put the kibosh on that. Now they're doing the same goddamn thing, but shadier.

Or maybe they just don't know how the fuck things work in government because they have extremely limited experience in said government.
posted by Melismata at 8:37 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

One more morsel from the PPP Poll: Trump loses in a theoretical matchup with Frederica Wilson 42/39
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:37 AM on October 31, 2017 [29 favorites]

In some less surreal timeline, I'd say the racist comments by Kelly were said intentionally to take attention away from his boss. But in this timeline, he's just truthfully expressing what he believes.

Guessing the #BlueFalcon and #BlueFalconKelly twitter tags have come up in previous threads (etymology here, TL;DR is that there are many ex-USMC and ex-military not happy with him siding with the bone-spurs guy).

I really hoped he was going to be the token adult in the room, but at this point slightly-more-mentally-competent-racist seems to be the best to hope for.
posted by Buntix at 8:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Soon it will be Donald's turn in the empty barrel
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) also downplayed the chances that Mueller would get fired, saying no one in their "right mind" would fire the special counsel.

Oh FFS, back in August Graham introduced the goddam bi-partisan "Special Counsel Independence Protection Act" and supported the similar "Special Counsel Independence Protection Act" (both currently held up in the judiciary committee). Yesterday Sen. Cory Brooker released a statement to remind everybody of that.

Also, this seriously begs the question about Trump being in his right mind.
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:39 AM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

I want Senator Graham's opinion on whether anyone in their "right mind" would fire the FBI Director and go on TV and say it was due to anger about an investigation into their campaign
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

From the PPP poll:

Americans give Candy Corn a 53/28 favorability rating. Trump voters (62/19) are more excited about it than Clinton voters (47/35).

In case you needed more proof that Trumpists are deluded idiots.
posted by uncleozzy at 8:42 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

I really hoped he was going to be the token adult in the room, but at this point slightly-more-mentally-competent-racist seems to be the best to hope for.

If you've ever watched a group of kids make up a game and play together with rules they're inventing on the spot, you will invariably see the kids who point out flaws and inconsistencies shouted down and dis-invited in the future. This is geopolitical Calvinball at work.
posted by notorious medium at 8:46 AM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

Maybe the President lies and is incredibly racist because he has a plan to destroy the right-wing and usher in fully-automated gay space communism

I petition to shift overton window to artisanal gay space communism.
posted by srboisvert at 8:48 AM on October 31, 2017 [30 favorites]

Americans give Candy Corn a 53/28 favorability rating. Trump voters (62/19) are more excited about it than Clinton voters (47/35).

In case you needed more proof that Trumpists are deluded idiots.

This is more evidence that they are a death cult.
posted by srboisvert at 8:49 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

It's not candy corn they like, it's garmanbozia.
posted by Catblack at 8:51 AM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

Next golf game Senator Graham is going to claim that Trump got a hole-in-one and then a golden heron descended upon the ball and placed it in the next hole so it was a two-hole-in-one
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:54 AM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Gold-plated heron, more likely.
posted by delfin at 8:58 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

From WaPo's Trump and his allies are laying the groundwork for a Saturday Night Massacre

"We don’t know if Trump will go full authoritarian or not. But as Brian Beutler says, the mere fact that congressional Republicans are not flashing a bright warning sign itself suggests that we cannot count on any procedural response meeting it, if it does come to that. The continued media treatment of efforts to lay the groundwork for such an eventuality as mere efforts to “distract” from Mueller suggests another guardrail is inadequate as well."

I really think Trump will fire Mueller.
posted by Tarumba at 8:59 AM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

But he can't? so what's he going to do, fire Sessions?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:02 AM on October 31, 2017

"I can't imagine any administration taking a move like that," Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) told reporters Monday when asked if legislation to shield Mueller from a potential firing was necessary.

Somebody send Sen. Corker the notes on the Saturday Night Massacre, please - he doesn't need to imagine it, it has precedence.
posted by nubs at 9:02 AM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

Maybe the President lies and is incredibly racist because he has a plan to destroy the right-wing

When the full extent of your political ideology consists of :
1. IOKIYAR
2. SUCK IT LIBTARDS

There is no such thing as failure. And since the ideology can never fail, no adherent will ever have cause to question their commitment to it.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:03 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

Randy Rainbow's "Sweet Indictment" will reward your attention. "I see you shiver from this investi..."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:03 AM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Anyone got a link to the website that is pre-organizing Mueller firing protests? Had it pinned for a long time but lost it
posted by Golem XIV at 9:04 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

But he can't? so what's he going to do, fire Sessions?

This what I don’t understand. Only Rosenstein can fire Mueller. Trump can fire Rosenstein and then try to get someone else to replace Rosenstein who will fire him but he can’t just pick up the phone and fire him, right?
posted by Room 641-A at 9:10 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

candy corn is actually good
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:12 AM on October 31, 2017 [49 favorites]

Oops, here’s the link for the Mueller protests.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:12 AM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

Right, but that's how the Saturday Night Massacre played out too and it's still known as Nixon's last-ditch move to fire Archibald Cox, just carried out indirectly.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:13 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Another avenue Bannon is pushing for is simply defunding the probe, according to WaPo.
posted by Tarumba at 9:13 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Then we can crowdfund it.
posted by Lord_Pall at 9:15 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

candy corn is actually good

Only if you eat it mixed with salted peanuts because you live too far from the Midwest to get a Pearson's Salted Nut Roll (original version only).
posted by wenestvedt at 9:15 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

This whole candy corn derail is a Russian operation to fragment the left; if we let it follow its course it will end in a MeTa and a flameout.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 9:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

To avoid the derail can everyone who agrees just favorite OverlappingElvis' comment instead of weighing in and we'll compare that to everyone who doesn't favorite it and declare candy corn the loser.
posted by Molesome at 9:21 AM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

Or is it science that is suspicious? Numbers in general? I don't know what anything means.

If that's actually true then the Russians have beaten you. Snap out of it.
posted by flabdablet at 9:21 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Guessing the #BlueFalcon and #BlueFalconKelly twitter tags have come up in previous threads

So in this analogy, who is Dynomutt?
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:22 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Can Trump Fire Mueller? (From Fact Check)

From the same website, it's "theoretically possible" for the Attorney General to fire Mueller, if Trump fires Rosenstein first.

This bit makes me feel a little better, though:

"If Trump tries to blow through the regulation and fire Mueller himself, would DOJ or Mueller accept the termination or instead challenge and litigate the purported removal?” Goldsmith wrote. “That litigation would be … interesting.”"
posted by Tarumba at 9:23 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Trump could tell Rosenstein to fire Mueller, and Rosenstein could comply. The guy works for Trump. That fact alone shits on whatever else he might have in his background or on his resume.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Tarumba: “That litigation would be … interesting.”"

Goddamnit, did we all wish on a cursed monkey paw that "2017 be more interesting than 2016"?
posted by filthy light thief at 9:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

Guys if you really need to keep talking about whether or not candy corn is good, I suggest taking it to another forum in which an expert has given a pretty thorough and authoritative take.
posted by cortex at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2017 [52 favorites]

Rosenstein has said there's no good cause to fire Mueller. And that was before a conviction and two indictments.

Rosenstein clarified at a Senate Appropriations Justice, Science and Related Agencies subcommittee hearing that he, and not Attorney General Jeff Sessions, has the authority to hire and fire Mueller.

“Have you seen good cause for firing Mueller?” Sen. Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.) asked Rosenstein.

“I have not,” he replied.

Rosenstein added he is confident Mueller will have sufficient independence in the investigation into the Trump campaign’s potential ties to Russia.

Sen. Susan Collins (R-Maine) further pressed him on reports that the administration is considering firing Mueller, asking whether he would if President Trump ordered him to do so.

“I am not going to follow any orders unless I believe those are lawful and appropriate,” Rosenstein said, explaining that under federal regulations, Mueller can only be fired for good cause and that reason would have to be put in writing.

posted by chris24 at 9:29 AM on October 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

an expert has given a pretty thorough and authoritative take.

/blows shrill, annoying whistle

FALLACY! Appeal to authority!
posted by Existential Dread at 9:30 AM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

Rosenstein has said there's no good cause to fire Mueller.

I've got no ax to grind here, but I would like to point out that article is from June.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 9:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Based on the language that the administration uses to talk about the investigation, they're not going to fire Mueller. They're going to conclude the investigation. That will give the congressional Republicans a chance to say that no one was fired, the investigation just ended. Nothing more to see here. Lets get back to grinding the poor to feed the rich. Is there a lever the administration could use to end the investigation that isn't firing?

Unrelated, Papadopoulos was arrested when he arrived at Dulles. I would like to know where he was coming from and if he was due back at that time, and is there any chance that the arrest could have been secret enough that the Trump administration didn't know about it?
posted by gladly at 9:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

More from that hearing:

Under questioning from Van Hollen, Rosenstein also testified that removing the special counsel in order to prevent the investigation—as Trump himself implied he did in the firing of Comey—would also not constitute good cause
posted by Room 641-A at 9:34 AM on October 31, 2017

Best case firing: Trump decides to fire Mueller himself, refuses to listen to anyone who tells him that's not how it works, yells at cloud indefinitely.

Nixonian case: Trump orders Rosenstein to fire Mueller (or orders Sessions to order Rosenstein etc), fires Rosenstein for refusing, replaces him with Lindsey Graham.

Worst case: Trump orders Rosenstein to fire Mueller, and he does.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:35 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

I would like to point out that article is from June.

Yes, before a successful conviction of a Trump foreign policy advisor for colluding with Russia, and indictment of Trump's campaign manager and another senior advisor as mentioned. Things have gotten better for the investigation since then, not worse, unless you're Trump.
posted by chris24 at 9:35 AM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

Most likely case: Trump tweets that Mueller is fired, leaves it to staff to figure out how the hell that works.
posted by solotoro at 9:36 AM on October 31, 2017 [44 favorites]

A special council to probe the Democrats? First of all the dungeon masters have been indicted, and then the Democrats are never going to bend over for this.
posted by Oyéah at 9:37 AM on October 31, 2017

It's also hilarious the cognitive dissonance of Trump & Co. crowing about Mueller's supposed interest in Tony Podesta while dismissing anything Mueller does against them.
posted by chris24 at 9:39 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

@realdonaldtrump I hope people will start to focus on our Massive Tax Cuts for Business (jobs) and the Middle Class (in addition to Democrat corruption)!

Nitpickyish but among his various other sins it irks me that he's using "Democrat" as a pejorative adjective like one of Gingrich's goons or some Reddit clown.

But anyway, since words are, as Frowner states, "mere instruments," then if the Democrats (noun, pl.) hope to have any chance of impeaching Trump, they really need to start to sharpening their talking points and sound bites. He's not and never just the "President," he's the "Con Man in the Oval Office" or "Premier Trump." He's illegitimately installed, a Crony of the Kremlin, a "so-called President," a professional grifter who scammed his way into high office with the help of hostile foreign agents. Everyone knows it, and they already have enough proof to have impeached a certain pants-suited person a dozen times over. Every talking head from Senators on down needs to polish the script now. And they need to start acting like they believe it. I mean, if the man is a traitor, there's no wait-and-see, there's no measured approach, he needs to go for the good of the nation. And I think with Trump's approval rating at 33%, a concerted push could get us to the tipping point from which even he can't recover.
posted by xigxag at 9:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

Rush Limbaugh: "If Hillary had been elected, none of this would be happening, other than they still put Trump in jail as a message to the outsider: Don't dare try this."

If Hillary had been elected, we'd be in the middle of the 8th pointless congressional investigation, and halfway between the 17th and 18th unsuccessful impeachment vote.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [103 favorites]

Nitpickyish but among his various other sins it irks me that he's using "Democrat" as a pejorative adjective like one of Gingrich's goons or some Reddit clown.

Honestly I think this is giving him too much credit. I don't think he's doing anything any more complex than dropping the s from Democrat(s).
posted by Fleebnork at 9:43 AM on October 31, 2017

Given the circumstances under which the investigation started (as well as the next level chess on display yesterday), I would be surprised if Mueller and his team don't have some sort of contingency plan in the event he is fired. But if it's up to Congress...

The idea that Papadopolous has been wearing a wire for a few months nicely echoes Trump's threat towards Comey after sacking him. The level of paranoia right now at the white house must be off the charts.

If Jared Kushner gets indicted (I think Ivanka is Trump's achilles heel), will the white house also write him off as a volunteer or coffee boy, a low level advisor that Donald barely knows? haha
posted by lowest east side at 9:45 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Trump could tell Rosenstein to fire Mueller, and Rosenstein could comply. The guy works for Trump. That fact alone shits on whatever else he might have in his background or on his resume.

If Trump is going to do it this is the path he'd take, indirection. He hates confronting people directly, always has others fire them for him. It's some part of his weird psychology.
posted by scalefree at 9:46 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

he can’t just pick up the phone and fire him, right?

He can pick up the phone and say whatever he wants to Mueller. Despite the certainty that multiple persons have told Trump firmly and clearly that he can't fire the man directly, I would not place money against him trying, particularly since his whole schtick used to be demonstratively firing people.
posted by aspersioncast at 9:50 AM on October 31, 2017

If Trump is going to do it this is the path he'd take, indirection. He hates confronting people directly, always has others fire them for him. It's some part of his weird psychology.

I'll note with some irony that this sorry behavior suggests he doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy by the person he's firing. It kind of fits in with his whole "why doesn't everyone love me" thing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

wearing a wire would be so easy. The Trump crew aren't the Barksdales. If Papadopolous got caught wearing a wire, they wouldn't kill him. Its a pretty low risk situation. However, the potential benefits for Papadopolous are huge, and ditto for the Mueller investigation. I'd bet good money he wore a wire. Plus easy to hide in a suit.
posted by MisantropicPainforest

You know, it just occurred to me but - don't federal buildings all have pretty serious metal detectors / security checkpoints? What do security guards do if they find someone wired for sound?
posted by lazaruslong at 9:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

I'll now with some irony that this sorry of behavior suggests he doesn't want to be seen as the bad guy by the person he's firing. It kind of fits in with his whole "why doesn't everyone love me" thing.

In a different life, Trump would completely have been the team leader sacking someone by telling them "I didn't want to, but senior management tell me they want to let you go." It would later emerge that the written reason for the sacking was "makes jokes about other employees' hands."
posted by jaduncan at 9:53 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

> wearing a wire would be so easy

This is a White House that just in the last few weeks adopted a "no personal phones in the West Wing" policy. IN THE WEST WING. Why go through the trouble of wearing a "wire" when you can just have the investigators install a covert recording app in a conventional smartphone? I'd be stunned if dozens of people in Trump's orbit didn't casually record things in their meetings throughout the campaign and early months of the administration, just, you know, in case.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:54 AM on October 31, 2017 [56 favorites]

Trump is starting to use words the way a toddler uses silverware.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:55 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

lazaruslong: "You know, it just occurred to me but - don't federal buildings all have pretty serious metal detectors / security checkpoints? What do security guards do if they find someone wired for sound?"

There is a 100% chance that the FBI (and other investigative agencies) have specific procedures for exactly that scenario.
posted by schmod at 9:55 AM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

I'd be stunned if dozens of people in Trump's orbit didn't casually record things in their meetings throughout the campaign and early months of the administration, just, you know, in case.

oh man i hope so, that would make one helluva steinski track
posted by entropicamericana at 9:56 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

You know, it just occurred to me but - don't federal buildings all have pretty serious metal detectors / security checkpoints? What do security guards do if they find someone wired for sound?

The detectors tend to be tuned for big lumps of metal. A wire can be fit inside a brooch, tie pin, pen (etc ad nauseam) and either can be worn through or placed in the side box as desired. The issue you'd have is more intelligence services looking, although this is surely very much the type of thing where the CI team break out their more expensive toys.
posted by jaduncan at 9:57 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

"You know, it just occurred to me but - don't federal buildings all have pretty serious metal detectors / security checkpoints? What do security guards do if they find someone wired for sound?"

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of Popadopolous's "wearing a wire" was conducted over the phone. And all of these people are already demonstrable idiots about talking to people over unsecured lines.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:57 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Why go through the trouble of wearing a "wire" when you can just have the investigators install a covert recording app in a conventional smartphone?

Or an overt recording app? Or just dial out and leave the line open after going through security? The idea that he'd have to have a stand-alone microphone taped to his chest in order to record conversations is bizarre given the state of modern technology.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:57 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

"You know, it just occurred to me but - don't federal buildings all have pretty serious metal detectors / security checkpoints? What do security guards do if they find someone wired for sound?"

I've walked though security at the Supreme Court and Library of Congress recently with a small MP3 player in my shirt pocket w/no comment. I haven't worn a wire recently, but I'm guessing, in 2017, they may not trip a metal detector.
posted by ryanshepard at 9:57 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Pool: "Pooler asked if he would pardon Paul Manafort. The president considered the question for half a moment and then thanked the pool."
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:00 AM on October 31, 2017 [23 favorites]

Ezra Klein, Vox: The cowardice of Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell

“In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself,” wrote James Madison in Federalist 51. “A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.”

Congress is one of those auxiliary precautions. Ambition was meant to counteract ambition. And Congress’s ambition, when combined with its power, was expected to be particularly potent — perhaps overwhelming. “As the weight of the legislative authority requires that it should be thus divided, the weakness of the executive may require, on the other hand, that it should be fortified,” worried Madison.

But that check is failing today. Ambition is enabling ambition — Ryan and McConnell’s ambition to pass tax cuts and hold the Republican base is enabling Trump’s ambition to act without proper oversight or sanction. And while Congress has plenty of authority, its leaders are too personally skittish to use it, or even signal that they might use it in the future.

posted by ZeusHumms at 10:00 AM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

He's not and never just the "President," he's the "Con Man in the Oval Office" or "Premier Trump."

He's also the Don. Literally.
posted by flabdablet at 10:00 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

The idea that he'd have to have a stand-alone microphone taped to his chest in order to record conversations is bizarre given the state of modern technology.

On the other hand, we've already seen several lazy moves from the writers.
posted by flabdablet at 10:01 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Going full theo-fascist.

@jmartNYT
Roy Moore to attend Senate GOP lunch today, per two Rs. Latest sign he’s being fully welcomed by party establishment.
posted by chris24 at 10:02 AM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

fires Rosenstein for refusing, replaces him with Lindsey Graham.

Fwiw (10/27)

A prominent Republican senator warned President Donald Trump Thursday “there will be holy hell to pay” if he fires Attorney General Jeff Sessions and dared the commander-in-chief to “accept the consequences” if he made such a move.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., one of the many GOP lawmakers furious over Trump’s escalating attacks on Sessions, let the president know in no uncertain terms that cutting the former Alabama senator loose from his Cabinet would be met with repercussions.

"There will be no confirmation hearing for a new attorney general in 2017. If Jeff Sessions is fired, there will be holy hell to pay," said Graham, who has been critical of Trump.

I would like to point out that article is from June.

Those quotes are from Senate testimony, under oath.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:03 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

The evidence was out there in the open. Wikileaks, the RNC platform, the NATO criticism. But no one wanted to admit it.
2/
The reason? Because no one wanted to believe how ethically bankrupt Trump was.

Nah, I am here to tell you, brother, that plenty of us were TOTALLY HAPPY to accept that Trump was ethically flat broke. We just couldn't believe anyone, even him and his dim-bulb minions, could possibly be so fucking stupid as to be that obvious and flagrant about it. I mean, the level of dumb and arrogant you have to be to say in April 2016, "Oh, nobody will ever find out, and if so, no biggie" about colluding and taking meetings with people who are under constant intel surveillance is a pretty high level.

But then, to the base and the GOP, indeed it is no biggie, so I guess we're the idiots here.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:05 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Historians respond to John F. Kelly’s Civil War remarks: ‘Strange,’ ‘sad,’ ‘wrong’
“That statement could have been given by [former Confederate general] Jubal Early in 1880,” said Stephanie McCurry, professor of history at Columbia University and author of “Confederate Reckoning: Politics and Power in the Civil War South.”

“What’s so strange about this statement is how closely it tracks or resembles the view of the Civil War that the South had finally got the nation to embrace by the early 20th century,” she said. “It’s the Jim Crow version of the causes of the Civil War. I mean, it tracks all of the major talking points of this pro-Confederate view of the Civil War.”
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:06 AM on October 31, 2017 [63 favorites]

"Pooler asked if he would pardon Paul Manafort. The president considered the question for half a moment and then thanked the pool."

I don't think he's aware of this, because he lacks a consciousness as we understand it, but: I think he saw Manafort's lawyer's weird defense of Trump instead of his client yesterday. I think it made him feel good, and his reptile brain knows that if he lets Manafort and his lawyer keep hoping for a pardon, they will keep saying nice things about him.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:07 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

This is a White House that just in the last few weeks adopted a "no personal phones in the West Wing" policy.

DC is a one-party consent region; I expect that there are some epic recordings of rants that are being held for the right movie or book contract.

And yeah, "wear a wire" is so much easier these days. Any phone, any MP3 player, or pen could be used for recording. Realtime transmission to an outside area is a bit more complicated, but if all they want is "record everything and bring us the memory card tomorrow," that's ridiculously simple. Hardcore security could catch almost all of it - but most of the people involved are not going to put up with an airport-style pat down on their way to work every day, much less the near-stripsearch it'd take to be thorough.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:09 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

I'd be stunned if dozens of people in Trump's orbit didn't casually record things in their meetings throughout the campaign and early months of the administration, just, you know, in case. [...]

you can't read your own notes you took on the criminal conspiracy later?

My handwriting is terrible. It would be unkind to poultry to call it chicken scratch.

Honestly, my third grade handwriting teacher advised my parents that buying me a typewriter might be the best solution.
posted by notyou at 10:10 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Not that it's a major surprise, but AP confirmed the identity of Papadopolous's contacts: Timofeev and Mifsud (no author credit given).
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Pooler asked if he would pardon Paul Manafort. The president considered the question for half a moment and then thanked the pool

I've had a feeling since the primaries that Trumo suffers from at least a small amount of hearing loss (which would be totally normal at his age) but is too vain to admit or wear a hearing aid (sadly, also totally normal at that age.) But not to the exclusion of any shitty reason, of course.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Hubris and stupidity. Stubris.

Hupidity rolls off the tongue better.

I could see a comic strip called Stubris + Hupidity -- two idiots inside the Trump admin making a daily mess of things.
posted by philip-random at 10:15 AM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

Those quotes are from Senate testimony, under oath.

I thought I remembered it being something of a thing that they were not required to take an oath at that hearing?
posted by solotoro at 10:18 AM on October 31, 2017

I thought I remembered it being something of a thing that they were not required to take an oath at that hearing?

Regardless if they were or were not, lying to Congress is a crime.
posted by chris24 at 10:22 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Hubris and stupidity. Stubris.

Hupidity rolls off the tongue better.

Textastrophe! That sounds better to me!
posted by sexyrobot at 10:24 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Honestly I think this is giving him too much credit. I don't think he's doing anything any more complex than dropping the s from Democrat(s).

Republicans have a long history of using "Democrat Party" as a slur and "[Trump's] use of the term seems to be purposeful."

"They call themselves the Democratic Party. Let's just call people what they call themselves and stop the Mickey Mouse here." -- Chris Matthews
posted by kirkaracha at 10:24 AM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

Regardless if they were or were not, lying to Congress is a crime.

And if there's one thing we know about the modern GOP, it's that they hate committing crimes.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:25 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

It's some part of his weird psychology.

And speaking of which, serious question:

Not being a billionaire sociopath myself, I'm really curious about what the Trumps and Kushners and Manaforts of the world actually offer in their defense of their insane ideas.

Example: "Mr. President, if you ask Director Comey to call off the investigation into General Flynn, you're asking for a world of trouble."

Does Trump say:
-"I'LL fucking decide what's trouble around here"
-"No, no, you're wrong, it's a great idea for reason X"
-"How would anybody ever find out I even did that?"
-"Nobody knows the system better than me, therefore I can't be wrong about this"
-"I know you've been in politics all your life, but my decades in the real estate market clearly make me the authority here"

?

I don't imagine there's much in-depth discussion (at ALL) with Trump about his decisions, but at some point he's had to offer some response to people trying to talk him out of something. If anybody's had experience with people like these, I'd love to know how they process the decision to go ahead with something the average person would know is monumentally stupid.
posted by Rykey at 10:32 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

"I've always gotten away with everything, why should this be any different?" Although I don't know if Trump is smart enough to even understand his own motivation for anything.
posted by something something at 10:34 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Remember Rick Dearborn, Jefferson Sessions' former chief of staff who now works in the WH as a deputy chief of staff? He game to mind because I had briefly confused him with Rick Gates, of Muellermas infamy.

I would not be surprised at all if Dearborn were under investigation or sealed indictment because asManu Raju and Marshall Cohen of CNN noted in August 2017:

The aide, Rick Dearborn, who is now President Donald Trump's deputy chief of staff, sent a brief email to campaign officials last year relaying information about an individual who was seeking to connect top Trump officials with Putin, the sources said.

The person was only identified in the email as being from "WV," which one source said was a reference to West Virginia. It's unclear who the individual is, what he or she was seeking, or whether Dearborn even acted on the request. One source said that the individual was believed to have had political connections in West Virginia, but details about the request and who initiated it remain vague. [...]

The Russian "active measures" campaign to influence the US election was fully underway when Dearborn sent his email. This included cyberattacks against the Democratic National Committee and Clinton's senior staffers, as well as pro-Trump messaging by Kremlin-backed propaganda outlets, according to a report declassified by the US intelligence community in January.

And Dearborn wasn't the only person within the Trump campaign emailing about potential Russia meetings. Trump campaign adviser George Papadopoulos sent an email to top campaign officials in March 2016 about arranging meetings with Russians, sources said. The subject line was "Meeting with Russian Leadership -- Including Putin," according to the source.

Sources told CNN that senior campaign officials dismissed that proposal. Papadopoulos has not responded to CNN's previous requests for comment.

So...we have the former chief of staff of Jefferson Sessions trying to connect members of the Trump campaign to Putin. Just as Sessions lied to Congress, I would not be surprised if Dearborn has lied to the FBI as to his role in this entire sordid affair.

I would not be surprised if Mueller has tried or managed to flip Dearborn. This is the guy who helped set up the Mayflower Hotel meeting wherein Sessions, Trump, and Kislyak were present and has been very close to Sessions for years. He also now, as a deputy chief of staff, has a great deal of access to the WH--a perfect candidate for wearing a wire.

If I were Confederate General Sessions, I'd be pretty damned worried.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 10:34 AM on October 31, 2017 [41 favorites]

And yeah, "wear a wire" is so much easier these days

Pretty sure we're overestimating the security. The Trumpfia is so far from 'The Wire' level of intrigue, more The Strangerers.

I'm picturing Papadopoulos in meetings with an AKG 310 crudely stuffed into a vase with a paper flower sellotaped on top.

*pushes vase closer to current speaker in the meeting (the utterly obvious wire knocking over at least 3 glasses of fake French mineral water)*

"Could you repeat that a bit more clearly for my lovely flower, it makes it grow more biggererer!"
posted by Buntix at 10:36 AM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Papadopoulos could have walked in carrying a giant parabolic mic with "FBI surveillance" written on it in big letters, and the others would have been none the wiser.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

"I've always gotten away with everything, why should this be any different?"

having worked for at least one meddling, rich kid, megalomaniacal incompetent, I'd vote for this, with the followup line: "Make it work. What the hell am I paying you for anyway?"
posted by philip-random at 10:42 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

Rosenstein has said there's no good cause to fire Mueller.

Ah but is there a 'lost cause' to fire Mueller?
posted by srboisvert at 10:43 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

"Make it work. What the hell am I paying you for anyway?"

I just had some flashback shudders. Yes, the kind of people at the top of the economic heap who think they buy and sell people say this alot.
posted by LegallyBread at 10:45 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

Bernie Sanders Warns Democrats Not to Hang Their Hopes on Robert Mueller

“Yes. I mean, I think we’ve got to work in two ways,” Sanders answered. “No. 1, we have got to take on Trump’s attacks against the environment, against women, against Latinos and blacks and people in the gay community, we’ve got to fight back every day on those issues. But equally important, or more important: We have got to focus on bread-and-butter issues that mean so much to ordinary Americans.”

Fuck you Bernie. Gays, blacks, latinos and women are ordinary Americans and as important as your precious WWC men. And equal rights are a bread and butter issue, an economic issue, and crucial to the success and viability of the Democratic coalition.
posted by chris24 at 10:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [225 favorites]

Papadopoulos could have walked in carrying a giant parabolic mic with "FBI surveillance" written on it in big letters, and the others would have been none the wiser.

I think some of them have enough brains to notice that, and enough ~~confidence~~ arrogance to object. But he could've labeled it "Clinton Supporter Detector" and been just fine.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:51 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Pretty sure we're overestimating the security.

Maybe. When I got a tour of the White House it went like this: a White House employee met me at the gate and told the Secret Service "he's with me" and the Secret Service said "come on in!" They made a copy of my ID and had me sign in but no bag check, no metal detector. This was a decade ago, but after 9/11, anthrax, and the shoe and underpants bombers. Things may have changed since but I can't imagine that someone who has worked for the president and would have had an actual business reason to be there would be under any more scrutiny than me as a tourist.
posted by peeedro at 10:52 AM on October 31, 2017

tonycpsu: "This is a White House that just in the last few weeks adopted a "no personal phones in the West Wing" policy. IN THE WEST WING."

I bet the FBI could subvert a federal phone into a recording device.
posted by Mitheral at 10:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

women, against Latinos and blacks and people in the gay community

ordinary Americans
posted by uncleozzy at 10:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

Gays, blacks, latinos and women are ordinary Americans and as important as your precious WWC men.

In fact, gays, blacks, latinos, and women are the majority of "ordinary Americans." Straight white guys are the minority fringe group demanding special treatment.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:53 AM on October 31, 2017 [144 favorites]

You know, it just occurred to me but - don't federal buildings all have pretty serious metal detectors / security checkpoints? What do security guards do if they find someone wired for sound?

I wear hearing aids and a bluetooth connector/microphone for them on my collar, all of which have gone through TSA and government building metal detectors many, many times without setting them off.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:56 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Politico, Catherine Boudreau: Clovis said to be 'cooperative witness' in Senate Russia probe
posted by Mister Fabulous at 10:58 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

"I'm watching now and screaming," one Fox News personality said in a text message to CNN as the person watched their network's coverage. "I want to quit."

do it
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:59 AM on October 31, 2017 [47 favorites]

Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) also downplayed the chances that Mueller would get fired, saying no one in their "right mind" would fire the special counsel. "I don’t feel an urgent need to pass that law until you show me that Mr. Mueller is in jeopardy," he told reporters on Monday evening.

"What kind of leopard would eat someone's FACE?!" demanded the acolyte of the Leopards Eating People's Faces party.
posted by Mayor West at 11:01 AM on October 31, 2017 [34 favorites]

I used to work for a logistic company that managed warehouses for a large computer company. You couldn't get into the warehouse without going through a metal detector that was so sensitive that an underwire bra would set it off (because they didn't want people sneaking chips out). I imagine a metal detector sensitive enough to catch a wire would end up being a huge pain in the ass.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:03 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

They made a copy of my ID and had me sign in but no bag check, no metal detector.

Three or so years ago, I had to go through two metal detectors personally while my stuff went through an x-ray, then past a room with ginormous scary dogs sniffing me and everything I owned through a fence made of four-inch-diameter steel poles, that rather than reassuring me I was safe made me wonder how many less-sturdy versions the dogs had gotten through. And that was as a federal employee there on an pre-approved visit, and only to the Eisenhower building extension.

But generally the folks with the right kind of badge get to skip most or all that stuff, anyway.
posted by solotoro at 11:04 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Or, you know, Papadopoulos could have talked to all his buddies at Mar-A-Lago, with its notoriously fabulous security. But we wouldn't know it, would we, because somehow they're still not releasing the visitor log.
posted by lydhre at 11:06 AM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Does Trump say:
-"I'LL fucking decide what's trouble around here"
-"No, no, you're wrong, it's a great idea for reason X"
-"How would anybody ever find out I even did that?"
-"Nobody knows the system better than me, therefore I can't be wrong about this"
-"I know you've been in politics all your life, but my decades in the real estate market clearly make me the authority here"

?

-"Why is everyone still picking on me after all this time, I didn't know this would be so hard, Hillary's bad because she's a woman, I'm going to play golf"
posted by Melismata at 11:07 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

“No. 1, we have got to take on Trump’s attacks against the environment, against women, against Latinos and blacks and people in the gay community, we’ve got to fight back every day on those issues. But equally important, or more important: We have got to focus on bread-and-butter issues that mean so much to ordinary Americans.

I, too, would just like to add to the chorus of "fuck these two sentences immediately."
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:08 AM on October 31, 2017 [68 favorites]

From the "I want to quit." link above: The person said, "Fox feels like an extension of the Trump White House."

Uh, huh. Uh, huh. Please, tell me more.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

or more important

why

why add these three words

like...why
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:11 AM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

If Hillary had been elected, we'd be in the middle of the 8th pointless congressional investigation, and halfway between the 17th and 18th unsuccessful impeachment vote.

I knew at the time no matter how much I wanted her to win she would have a hard time being an effective President because of this. We were always headed for a meltdown.

A percentage of the population has been radicalized. They weren't going to stop until they got a chance to touch the hot thing. Some of them are coming back from the brink, having their hands burned, but my fear is that even if the hardcore radicals are 1% or .5% that's a lot of people.

My prediction is that a lot of people are going to jail, most of the Trump administration and then some, but this country will never be the same. Many things may be better than before, the pendulum could swing hard, but we may have a long period of domestic terrorism to deal with. Some of these people are fully committed and aren't coming back.
posted by bongo_x at 11:12 AM on October 31, 2017 [34 favorites]

some epic recordings of rants
Oh my god, I never thought of this. Oh... my heavens. I would pay blood or money or vital organs for this to be true and for the source material for the books/movies to get leaked.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:13 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

God DAMMIT, Bernie. Are you really going to milkshake duck yourself like this?
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:14 AM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

The idea that he'd have to have a stand-alone microphone taped to his chest in order to record conversations is bizarre given the state of modern technology.

On the other hand, we've already seen several lazy moves from the writers.

Don't forget who we're talking about here. If there are recordings and if we ever hear them, there is zero chance Papadopolous didn't go full prime-time awkward-social-skills sitcom on the whole thing.

*bump*
*shuffle*
"Excuse me, Mr. President, could you repeat what you said about COLLUDING WITH THE RUSSIANS a little louder, please?"

"Why are you leaning in on me like that?"

"I, uh...I just like to be close to power, sir. Like, POWERFUL PEOPLE WITH RUSSIAN CONNECTIONS LIKE YOURS, sir."

"Ah. Uh-huh."

"I'LL TAKE THAT AS A CONFIRMATION, SIR. I SAY AGAIN, I'LL TAKE THAT AS CONFIRMATION."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

like...why

Bernie gonna Bernie, man. I'm sorry. This is who he is.
posted by adamgreenfield at 11:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [49 favorites]

God DAMMIT, Bernie. Are you really going to milkshake duck yourself like this?

He's not milkshake ducking anything. This is just more of the same. Disappointing, sure, but by no means new or surprising.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

I knew at the time no matter how much I wanted her to win she would have a hard time being an effective President because of this. We were always headed for a meltdown.

Yup. I think there was a link in an earlier thread about how GOP congressfolx TOTALLY WISHED THAT HILLARY HAD BEEN ELECTED ... why? Well, because they only know how to oppose, not govern, duh.
posted by Melismata at 11:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Are you really going to milkshake duck yourself like this?
You make it sound like this is some new, never-before-revealed aspect of his worldview. It's not.
posted by neroli at 11:17 AM on October 31, 2017 [35 favorites]

oh good i can't wait for this to become all about bernie again, those discussion are always Very Productive and End Well.
posted by Tevin at 11:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [58 favorites]

“No. 1, we have got to take on Trump’s attacks against the environment, against women, against Latinos and blacks and people in the gay community, we’ve got to fight back every day on those issues. But equally important, or more important: We have got to focus on bread-and-butter issues that mean so much to ordinary Americans.

And he could have fixed the most egregious part so easily by changing just one word: ordinary -> all.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Three or so years ago, I had to go through two metal detectors personally while my stuff went through an x-ray, then past a room with ginormous scary dogs sniffing me and everything I owned through a fence made of four-inch-diameter steel poles, that rather than reassuring me I was safe made me wonder how many less-sturdy versions the dogs had gotten through. And that was as a federal employee there on an pre-approved visit, and only to the Eisenhower building extension.

If you want to see serious security try being a non-citizen ordinary schmo going into an embassy. You get to keep your clothing but nothing else. It is very awkward because there are no lockers or bins. You have to plan your trip so that you have nothing to carry other than your paperwork or have someone who waits outside for you with all your stuff.
posted by srboisvert at 11:18 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

If you have an hour to fill/kill: Tillerson, Mattis Testify At Senate Foreign Relations Committee On AUMF (PBS News Hour on YouTube)

Democrats ask Mattis, Tillerson about nukes as part of discussion on Congress’ consideration of a new war authority for U.S. troops (AP via Washington Post)

Senior U.S. national security officials say a new war authorization is “not legally required” to conduct combat operations against terrorist groups.

Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and Defense Secretary Jim Mattis testified Monday before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, three months after they informed the panel a post-Sept. 11, 2001, law gave the military ample authority to fight terrorist groups and a new one was unnecessary.

A separate authorization for the war in Iraq approved by Congress in 2002 also remains in force.

Tillerson and Mattis say that if Congress does pursue a new authorization for foes such as the Islamic State, it’s imperative that the existing law not be rescinded until the new one is fully in place.
...
Congressional Democrats are pressing senior national security officials on whether there are circumstances that would allow President Donald Trump to preemptively strike North Korea or another country with nuclear weapons.

Sen. Edward Markey of Massachusetts is asking Defense Secretary Jim Mattis and Secretary of State Rex Tillerson if Trump could launch a “first strike” without consulting any members of Congress.

Defense Secretary Jim Mattis is avoiding a direct answer, saying the question is hypothetical. But Mattis says he could imagine a scenario where it’s possible if another country were preparing to fire weapons of mass destruction at the United States.

Mattis also says the process for launching nuclear weapons is very rigorous.

Tillerson says no U.S. president “has foresworn first strike and that has served us well for 70 years.”

"So we're all totally safe under the narcissistic president who was elected because he's not like past presidents. Sleep tight!" [fake]
posted by filthy light thief at 11:20 AM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

I truly fucking seethe with rage everytime the "aw shucks, real Americans don't worry about Russia, they worry about X" argument. Are we really stooping so low as to just baldly say "yo, most Americans don't actually care if our entire government conspired with another country and lied about it, as long as gas prices stay low". If you are in the "real", white, cis, straight, working-middle class demographic, you should be insulted that your representatives think you don't notice or care about this. It is pandering to people who don't care about learning shit in an age of unprecedented access to information and telling them it's okay to not care about learning shit. FUCK. We should not be encouraging the notion that educating your goddamn self is some uppity liberal ideal.
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:25 AM on October 31, 2017 [55 favorites]

Rep. Heckarling (R, Tx) not running for reelection per Katy Tur.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:26 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Mattis also says the process for launching nuclear weapons is very rigorous.

It rigorously ensures that the order to launch is a valid order issued by the national command authority, who is currently...well, it's cold comfort, I guess.
posted by AndrewInDC at 11:27 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Rep. Heckarling (R, Tx) not running for reelection per Katy Tur.

Bravley stepping asside to be replaced by an even worse nazi?
posted by Artw at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

The social media hearings are starting on CSPAN (with Senator Whitehouse!)
posted by Room 641-A at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

oh good i can't wait for this to become all about bernie again

One way to avoid this is for Bernie to not fucking say things hugely offensive to the majority of the Democratic coalition. Pointing out racially insensitive/borderline sexist things isn't the fault of the people insulted/angry, it's the fault of the people being fucking borderline racist/sexist.
posted by chris24 at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2017 [99 favorites]

That's Jeb Hensarling of TX-05. He's chair of the House Financial Services Committee. District went 65-34 Romney and 63-34 Trump.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

I truly fucking seethe with rage everytime the "aw shucks, real Americans don't worry about Russia, they worry about X" argument.

See also this tweet.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:33 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Ah, Sheldon Whitehouse...the Sassiest Senator in America.
posted by pxe2000 at 11:35 AM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Ready for the entire gerontocracy to fuck the hell off now, TBH.
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on October 31, 2017 [26 favorites]

Nitpickyish but among his various other sins it irks me that he's using "Democrat" as a pejorative adjective like one of Gingrich's goons or some Reddit clown.

Honestly I think this is giving him too much credit. I don't think he's doing anything any more complex than dropping the s from Democrat(s).

The RNC adopted "Democrat" as a slur for fundraising materials and speeches back during the Carter administration. "Democrat Party" rather than "Democratic Party."
posted by jgirl at 11:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

their continued existence does give me a bit of hope concerning my own plans to live a thousand years sustained only by spite and rage
posted by poffin boffin at 11:38 AM on October 31, 2017 [25 favorites]

Engadget: Senators Susan Collins (R-ME) and Martin Heinrich (D-NM) have put forward a bill that would protect America's voting infrastructure from foreign interference. The Securing America's Voting Equipment Act, or SAVE, is the newest attempt by the US to prevent elections from being compromised by foreign powers.
posted by Chrysostom at 11:41 AM on October 31, 2017 [34 favorites]

From the PPP poll results mentioned above.

Trump is already in a very bad position when it comes to hypothetical match ups for reelection in 2020. He trails Joe Biden by 18 at 56/38, Bernie Sanders by 15 at 53/38, Cory Booker by 11 at 49/38, Elizabeth Warren by 10 at 50/40, Kirsten Gillibrand by 10 at 48/38, Kamala Harris by 6 at 45/39, and Frederica Wilson by 3 at 42/39. While the support level for the possible Democrats fluctuates likely based on name recognition Trump polls consistently in the 38-40% range no matter who he’s pitted against. It’s also interesting that the hierarchy of Democratic performance goes white men->black man->white women->women of color.

posted by chris24 at 11:42 AM on October 31, 2017 [31 favorites]

I know that the way Republicans use "Democrat Party" is supposed to be an insult, but I don't understand what's supposed to be insulting about it. Where is the sting?
posted by chrchr at 11:46 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Democratic implies democracy, and we can't have people making positive associations with Democrats.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:47 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Yeah its confusing to me too. I actually think Democrat Party sounds better all things being equal.
posted by ian1977 at 11:48 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

I know that the way Republicans use "Democrat Party" is supposed to be an insult, but I don't understand what's supposed to be insulting about it.

Probably just the same as in insisting on calling someone something other than their correct name, which numerous adverse children tormented me with in elementary school.
posted by thelonius at 11:48 AM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

They place the emphasis on -rat. The Democ-RAT party. Get it. They're so clever.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

It is very true that the grand Republican project is the destruction of democracy though, so there's honesty in their identification of the enemy.
posted by Artw at 11:50 AM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

I never understood why that's such a big deal either. Okay, it's the DemocratIC Party, sure, but... Democrats and Republicans. If it's not an insult to call someone a Democrat, it's not much of an insult to say "Democrat Party", IMO. There are bigger hills to die on.
posted by Roommate at 11:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

I could see a comic strip called Stubris + Hupidity -- two idiots inside the Trump admin making a daily mess of things.

Goofus and Malignant
posted by zippy at 11:52 AM on October 31, 2017 [28 favorites]

It’s also interesting that the hierarchy of Democratic performance goes white men->black man->white women->women of color.

The word I would use isn't "interesting." From Bernie to our Petulant-Thing-in-Chief, the same stuff pervades. Even in the middle of my happy Muellerween/Muellerkah, I just want to give a big FU to all that led to where we are in the first place. Now back to my legal nerding out.
posted by anya32 at 11:53 AM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

They should just rename themselves Centrist Pushover Party to avoid this.
posted by Artw at 11:53 AM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epithet)
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:54 AM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

There are bigger hills to die on.
Whatever you say, Roommat.
posted by neroli at 11:56 AM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

Sarah Sanders has prepared notes on historians that thought that a failure to compromise led to the Civil War, something you would not think the White House Press Secretary would need to prepare in advance, but says "I'm not going to get up here and relitigate the Civil War" as she does just that. She's all in on insisting that Kelly (and previously, Trump) was right and historians agree.

She helpfully says we should ask Facebook whether Facebook should be required to disclose political ads, as broadcasters must do.

@ChadPergram: GOP LA Sen Kennedy says "tomorrow all hell is going to break loose" when Hse GOPers release tax reform bill

I hate talking about distractions, but Russia talk is going to get pushed aside for a while during the colossal amount of screaming over taxes that's coming.

You can follow @MikeIsaac for live tweets from the Facebook/Google/Twitter hearing before Senate Judiciary.
posted by zachlipton at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

Historians respond to John F. Kelly’s Civil War remarks: ‘Strange,’ ‘sad,’ ‘wrong’

Does Kelly (or pick any number of these garbage people, come to that) read any of this stuff? He is (or so they say) a man with a brain, so he must realise that what he is coming out with is not only offensive, but also deeply WRONG. Does that not register with him? At all? Or does he know and not care? I don't get it
posted by Myeral at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

I hate talking about distractions, but Russia talk is going to get pushed aside for a while during the colossal amount of screaming over taxes that's coming.

Taxes deserve attention. The Russia investigation is going to happen one way or another, and the tax plan is going to be catastrophic. It's ok to focus on it.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

Exit SRH to the sounds of April Ryan trying to ask if the Administration thinks slavery was wrong, if you want to know where we are as a country right now.
posted by zachlipton at 12:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [101 favorites]

Trump polls consistently in the 38-40% range no matter who he’s pitted against.

Man, I swear I've heard this before but I just can't put a finger on where....
posted by photoslob at 12:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

It's not the biggest issue, it's not the biggest insult, but it's an issue and it is is often meant as an insult.
posted by cjelli at 11:57 AM on October 31 [+] [!]

And it's a childish insult, so if you object you're stooping to their level and derailing whatever discussion is going on, but if you just let them keep at it, there are certain observers that take that as a weakness, even among Democrats, so it's damned if you do, and damned if you don't respond.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Daily reminder that Sarah Huckabee Sanders is a national disgrace:

Q: "Does the White House acknowledge that comment is deeply offensive to some folks? And it is historically inaccurate.”

@PressSec: “No"

But shoutout to the journo who yelled, multiple times, when SHS tried to get the hell out of Dodge "Sarah, does this administration believe that slavery was wrong?"
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [100 favorites]

Ahh, April Ryan. Bless her.
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:04 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Not even Donald Trump.

nobody,not even the rain,has such small hands
posted by Barack Spinoza at 12:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [34 favorites]

it's an issue and it is is often meant as an insult.

I suspect it's lost a lot of its power - people who aren't aware of the history are going to assume it's abbreviated for Twitter or headline reasons, and education is such these days that most millenials are going to be oblivious to the idea that such an obvious synonym is supposed to be insulting.

It's like a bully saying, "you have metal frames on your glasses!" erm, okay? Maybe "wire frames" is the preferred term, but... who cares? I suspect the reaction is often, "that's what they think is an insult? They really don't have any imagination, do they?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Sarah Huckabee Sanders is what happens when an innocent human baby develops within Mike Huckabee's sphere of influence.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:06 PM on October 31, 2017 [38 favorites]

I'm so annoyed with Sanders right now!

you don't know which one I'm talking about do you
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:07 PM on October 31, 2017 [52 favorites]

Trump polls consistently in the 38-40% range no matter who he’s pitted against.

So, 11-13% plus the crazification factor?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:08 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

nobody,not even the rain,has such small hands

ee cummings reference deserves multiple faves
posted by Myeral at 12:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

I truly fucking seethe with rage everytime the "aw shucks, real Americans don't worry about Russia, they worry about X" argument.

You shouldn't. Political engagement is even lower than sportsball engagement. Some stuff bubbles to the surface, sure, but most people don't know the ins and outs of all this stuff.

And, to some extent, they just don't care - voter turnout is ~50%. Fox News primetime viewership is only 2.2 million. This is because they don't have time - they work, they have kids, and so on. They worry about making the car payment or if they are gonna get called in for overtime, or if they'll get the time off they requested for hunting season or if they can afford to get that new squeak in the car fixed and how much little Billy's ER visit is gonna cost.

It's honestly a privileged luxury to have the time and mental bandwidth to care about the ins and outs of Manaforts comings and goings.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 12:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

It's like a bully saying, "you have metal frames on your glasses!"

I disagree, because I don't think anyone really cares how their glasses are described. it's more like the bully keeps calling you Bobby after you've explained that your name is Robert and none of your friends calls you Bobby. Names are important. Clearly your own name is more important than the name of some political party you support, but I think the analogy is more potent.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:11 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Texas 05 was redistricted to make sure a Dem couldn't win there. It used to cover my little town, but now we're covered under 32, so I can't run to replace whosehisface. Else, I would totally run under the Gay Space Communist ticket.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 12:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

SHS is either one of the smarter people in the White House or she's really good at pretending like she is, which goes along well with her talent for lying. Spicer couldn't lie convincingly. Trump can't lie convincingly. Additionally Trump and Pence are both painfully stupid. SHS can't spin, per se, but she is so matter of fact and cool when she tells blatant untruths that it's easy for the Fox News crowd to believe her.

(Related: I had dinner at my parents' house last night and when she came on TV we all booed. My parents are great.)
posted by elsietheeel at 12:16 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

So, we need an indie leftist group to register themselves as the Democrat Party - they'll piggyback into awareness on the right-wing use of their name.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:11 PM on October 31 [+] [!]

Or, more diabolically, an AstroTurf right-wing-nut party named the Democrat party to sow confusion and mistrust among the dim.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:16 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

zachlipton: "@ChadPergram: GOP LA Sen Kennedy says "tomorrow all hell is going to break loose" when Hse GOPers release tax reform bill"

Speaking of which:

Reuters: Republican tax legislation due to be released this week in the U.S. House of Representatives will not include a deduction for state and local income taxes, the top House Republican on tax policy said on Tuesday.

House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Kevin Brady said in a radio interview with commentator Hugh Hewitt that the emerging bill will offer relief only on property taxes. Brady spoke as House Republican leaders sought to broker an agreement with Republican lawmakers who want the state and local income tax deduction to remain.

Asked if there would be relief on the income side of state and local taxes, Brady replied: “The answer is ‘no.’ ... Our lawmakers in those high-tax states really believe their families are being punished most by property taxes.”

Good time to call up the NJ and NY GOP reps and see if they agree, I think.
posted by Chrysostom at 12:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

I like that - the "True Democrat" Party, declaring itself devoted to rule of & by the people, not the liberal media. Can we find some college student libertarians to kick it off?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Every time SHS opens her mouth I just feel like jumping up and down and screaming SHUT UP I HATE YOU over and over and over. And I can't think of anyone else who turns me into an infuriated six year old.

The best descriptor I ever heard for Sarah Huckabee Sanders came from Stephen Colbert: "The mother of the kid who bit your kid."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [122 favorites]

Sanders posited that Manafort was just a "delegate wrangler" and the Shep Smith excerpt posted above claimed the same thing so I'm curious since corb was at the Republican Convention, did she see him in action?

I’ve been mulling that over myself, actually - there was some weird stuff that went down that was unexplainable at the time but actually totally explainable if Russia was running counterintelligence on rebelling delegates, even ones that hadn’t outed themselves yet. Like, how did they know to block in certain stealth delegate contingents with Nazis?

One thing that I’m currently finding delightful is that the RNC brought in a Russian asset to fight us, thus tainting themselves with treason, rather than repudiate Trump. And they’re probably going to go down for it. I can’t see this not hitting Priebus. Which means they were offered the chance to save themselves on multiple levels, but turned it down for greed and power. It’s a morality play writ large, and they motherfucking failed so bad, and now they may see jail time for the ways they contorted themselves to betray their country.
posted by corb at 12:23 PM on October 31, 2017 [66 favorites]

Kevin Drum itemizes some worries about the last few days.
(Warning: Last two paragraphs are a request to send money to Mother Jones.)
posted by wittgenstein at 12:24 PM on October 31, 2017

Sanders posited that Manafort was just a "delegate wrangler"

my perfect 2017 vision eyes read that as "degenerate wanker" and i was like yes, good, please continue
posted by poffin boffin at 12:30 PM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

These are the same evil little fucks who used "community organizer" as a pejorative.

And "Social Justice Warrior."
posted by aspersioncast at 12:33 PM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

I am not worried about 8 years of the current administration; whether or not he can dodge the investigation, wether or not he's popular enough - this job is NOT FUN and he doesn't like it. He loved campaigning; he hates being stuck in an old building with no friends (or sycophants); he hates having to schedule his travel with swarms of security; he hates the restrictions on his phone and other communications; he really hates constantly being told that people hate him. Also, everyone around him wants him to do serious work - study reports, compare charts, and not just declare "these are the bad people; make them stop doing bad stuff."

He won't run again because he doesn't want the job. But he's happy to collect money on the side for it, and have "campaign rallies" until someone else is running and he'll have to face actual questions about not just policies, but his record of getting stuff done.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:34 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Halloween costume of the day: #ReclaimingMyCandy
posted by zachlipton at 12:35 PM on October 31, 2017 [74 favorites]

he hates being stuck in an old building with no friends (or sycophants); he hates having to schedule his travel with swarms of security; he hates the restrictions on his phone and other communications; he really hates constantly being told that people hate him.

pretty sure based on these factors hes not going to enjoy his post-presidency too much either, in that case (whether or not that involves living in a jail, hes going to be loathed, secured, and restricted).
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Brian Buetler: John Kelly, The Deplorable

At his most recent press conference, Kelly condescended to civilians as deprived second class, and fielded questions only from members or friends Gold Star families. But Kelly glorifies of service veterans in this way—in situations unconnected to their actual service—as a political shield. Justice Department special counsel Robert Mueller is a service veteran, but Kelly is helping Trump lay the groundwork for either cutting Mueller’s Russia investigation short, or ending it altogether, to help his draft-dodging boss get away with crimes.

Kelly, unlike Trump, isn’t a frivolous man. It’s not genuflecting to him or to military service in general to say he could not have built the career he built if he weren’t a considered person, poised, possessed of critical thinking, if not exemplary values. But there is no reading of world history, let alone of this administration, that says decades of military service confers decency and integrity permanently on all who retire with distinction. Michael Flynn is a retired lieutenant general. Curtis Lemay was a four-star general. Some of the worst people in American history were Confederate generals.

When Kelly replaced Reince Priebus as Trump’s chief of staff, we were told to expect Kelly to impose order on a chaotic West Wing, and thus, perhaps, to see the Trump administration become more disciplined. He has instead presided over the same level of chaos, with added doses of culture war and policy disaster layered on top. Bracketing his public conduct, unbiased critics would say he is at best a replacement-level chief of staff. Accounting for his public conduct, we must allow that he thinks he’s making huge backward strides, to a time when things were “sacred,” for the good of the country. He convinced the press that he’s a faithful steward of constitutional values, balancing the need to follow bad orders with the need to keep the government on the rails. It’s worth asking how he laundered himself so successfully. He is a faithful steward of values, alright—they’re just Trump’s values.

posted by zombieflanders at 12:39 PM on October 31, 2017 [46 favorites]

...And "Social Justice Warrior."

When my sister moved to the US a couple of years ago to do her Master's, she was really confused by how people use SJW as an insult here. I had such a hard time explaining to her that for a large slice of the US population wanting social justice makes you weak and pathetic.

But then trump campaigned and won and things became a lot more clear to her.
posted by Tarumba at 12:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [42 favorites]

Yeah, but he doesn't know the post-presidency also comes with a swarm of restrictions; he thinks he can go back to his gilt palace in NY and treat the whole thing like a cancelled TV series.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

WaPo, ‘Professor’ in Russia disclosures says he has ‘clear conscience’, in which Joseph Mifsud's former assistant says Mifsud claimed to have had a meeting with Putin himself, though she doesn't believe it:

Kutepova-Jamom told The Post that Mifsud contacted her late last year to brag about having a “short private meeting” with Russian President Vladimir Putin. But Kutepova-Jamom said she didn’t believe the two met because Mifsud is “a too ‘small-time’ person” to meet with the Russian leader.

posted by zachlipton at 12:41 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Facebook and Twitter are weaselwording and dodging responsibility all over this hearing

shocked, i am shocked
posted by entropicamericana at 12:45 PM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

The College Kids Doing What Twitter Won't

Bhat and Phadte, 20-year-old students who study computer science at UC Berkeley, decided to launch a data-driven counterattack, aiming to do what Twitter itself has not: publicly expose alleged bot accounts right there on the platform for the world to see. This week, the duo launched a Google Chrome browser extension that inserts a button onto every Twitter profile and tweet that reads, snappily, “Botcheck.me.” Click it, and you get a diagnosis of whether the account appears to be run by a person or by some sort of automation, based on the duo’s own machine learning model.

Cool idea, but identifying bots isn't the problem (most are pretty obvious). The problem is Twitter letting them run rampant.
posted by zakur at 12:49 PM on October 31, 2017 [47 favorites]

Every time SHS opens her mouth I just feel like jumping up and down and screaming SHUT UP I HATE YOU over and over and over. And I can't think of anyone else who turns me into an infuriated six year old. Not even Donald Trump.

I've been wondering lately if there is any unexamined misogyny in my visceral hatred of SHS and watching her press conferences. Do I see Sean Spicer as more of a goofball over his head and SHS as more evil/manipulative? But I remember yelling at the TV on that Saturday, Jan 21 press conference and pretty much every time I watched his press conferences after that. I think it's that Sean Spicer was so long ago in Trump Time and so much more has happened and keeps happening that there is no way to hold on to my past rage at the same level. I think that I just mostly hate whoever I see in front of me lying on behalf of the administration at any given moment.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:55 PM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

These are the same evil little fucks who used "community organizer" as a pejorative.
And "Social Justice Warrior."

Don't forget 'climate change' instead of 'global warming'...since, of course, the climate, it just a-changes all on it's own. Why, it does it almost every season (just, y'know, later every year thanks to global warming).
posted by sexyrobot at 12:58 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

This is partly the work of Newt Gingrich

The RNC adopted the form back during the Carter administration.
posted by jgirl at 12:59 PM on October 31, 2017

Estate tax --> death tax.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

identifying bots isn't the problem (most are pretty obvious)

I would like to subscribe your BlockTogether list.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 1:02 PM on October 31, 2017

Do I see Sean Spicer as more of a goofball over his head and SHS as more evil/manipulative? But I remember yelling at the TV on that Saturday, Jan 21 press conference and pretty much every time I watched his press conferences after that

They do have marked differences in style. Spicer is not a strong public speaker (which you'd think would be a requirement in such a position, but, 2017). I found myself more likely to roll my eyes and shake my head at Spicer; every press conference was like a throwaway bit out of Veep. SHS is a more competent speaker and sticks to the message -- but the message is frequently reprehensible, and she gives no sign of feeling this is so, which is chilling to see in any human.
posted by halation at 1:04 PM on October 31, 2017 [28 favorites]

The RNC adopted the form back during the Carter administration.

Yeah I recall growing up and hearing my grandfather say THEY'RE A DEMOCRAT as incontrovertible proof that someone was wrong. He would rant about Democrat this and Democrat that. I don't think I knew until I was an adult that it was The Democratic Party
posted by Fleebnork at 1:04 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Don't forget 'climate change' instead of 'global warming'

This, I think, is largely a scientist-initiated change, which came about largely due to numpties saying things like "but this year was unexpectedly the coldest and extreme winter ever, therefore there is no warming and no problem!". I'll agree the term isn't nearly terrifying enough.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 1:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [30 favorites]

Sean Spicer gave us the compelling spectacle of a man doing something he was spectacularly awful at, day after day after day, with no improvement. He looked constantly stressed out, couldn't get through a sentence without two or three bizarre malapropisms, routinely got into shouting matches with individual reporters, and on one occasion offered an unprompted defense of Adolf Hitler.

Sanders is actually pretty effective at simulating a press conference without imparting useful information of any kind and is much less fun to watch.
posted by theodolite at 1:09 PM on October 31, 2017 [38 favorites]

NBC News, Ken Dilanian and Mike Memoli, Top Trump Campaign Aide Clovis Spoke to Mueller Team, Grand Jury

Sam Clovis, the former top Trump campaign official who supervised a man now cooperating with the FBI's Russia investigation, was questioned last week by Special Counsel Robert Mueller's team and testified before the investigating grand jury, a person with first-hand knowledge of the matter told NBC News.

Clovis, who is President Donald Trump's pick to be the Department of Agriculture's chief scientist, could not be reached for comment. His lawyer, Victoria Toensing, would neither confirm nor deny his interactions with the Mueller team.

"I'm not going to get into that," she said in an interview.

Is the White House seriously going to go ahead with this nomination now?
posted by zachlipton at 1:09 PM on October 31, 2017 [23 favorites]

I'll agree the term isn't nearly terrifying enough.

It is if you think about it for a bit -- it's more upsetting than 'global warming' because it's a bigger and less-predictable/less-avoidable issue. Not just increased temperatures, but more intense and more frequent storms, derangements of typical weather patterns, desertification and flooding, and changes in flora and fauna as well (it even makes poison ivy stronger, and increases mosquito-borne disease infection rates.) It's meant to be scarier, because 'global warming' just kinda sounds like you get more short-sleeves-and-t-shirts weather.
posted by halation at 1:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

This, I think, is largely a scientist-initiated change

Oh no, not at all, not in the slightest. IIRC it was the RAND corporation that cooked that one up.
Oh and don't forget Social Security, Workman's Compensation, Unemployment Insurance, Pensions --> Entitlements (, you entitled little shits)
posted by sexyrobot at 1:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

"Climate disruption" is one I like, as it implies the disparate and catastrophic impacts (famines, droughts, mass migrations) we're starting to see.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:12 PM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

Is the White House seriously going to go ahead with this nomination now?

I think probably not but then I didn't expect former US Marine General and current White House Chief of Staff John Kelly to come out in favor of the Confederacy, either.
posted by notyou at 1:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

Before we get into too much of a derail on climate change vs global warming, there's some information about the history of both terms here.
posted by dadaclonefly at 1:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Sean Spicer ~~was~~ is bad ~~at his job~~.

I never do his but ftfy.
posted by milarepa at 1:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

I know we've covered this already, but this headline to an NYT article by Peter Baker really puts a point on it: Trump Belittles Aide Caught in Russia Inquiry; Calls Him ‘Liar’

Way to make sure George Papadopolous feels even a twinge about spilling his fucking guts to the FBI, and doesn't, say, stay up tonight searching his brain for any additional incriminating information he can offer on a n y o n e that he hasn't already offered up to Mueller's team's undoubtedly professional and thorough team.

Way to make sure, too, that your remaining subordinates and staff, who are all selfish assholes driven by ego and status and the desire to be seen as important, receive a fresh reminder of how they will lose all status and will not be defended if they get in trouble.

A+++ much strategy, much winning, master negotiator and leader, wow.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [89 favorites]

These are the same evil little fucks who used "community organizer" as a pejorative.
And "Social Justice Warrior."

I've taken to immediately asking people who use these terms if they are community destroyers or social injustice advocates. It makes subsequent conversation very painful and awkward. Which I like because now they are on my home field. Mwuhahaha!
posted by srboisvert at 1:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [78 favorites]

Oh no, not at all, not in the slightest. IIRC it was the RAND corporation that cooked that one up.

If they did then then it backfired. Climate Change as a term is much more accessible and meaningful to people because it explains what they are actually seeing, especially now, a change in their local climate. Things are wonky, not the same, weird and it's not just that warming thing that those folks have been talking about for years.

As an activist the move to using climate change instead of global warming saw a lot more people engaging because 'but there is more snows and it is colder here how is that warming?'
posted by Jalliah at 1:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Data point: I first heard "climate change" as opposed to global warming from scientists, with the explanation that as the climate changed, not every place would actually get significantly warmer, but all places would be significantly affected in some way. It was an attempt to get at the idea that the problem wasn't just that your average summer day would be 82 instead of 80, end of story, which was how a lot of people responded to global warming - "oh big deal, I don't care if it's 28 instead of 26 in the winter or 82 instead of 80 in the summer".
posted by Frowner at 1:16 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

I had a professor who called it "global weirding," which is evocative but probably not the best to use for a rallying slogan.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

Entitlements

"Entitlement" is an old legal term, I think, basically meaning a benefit that a class of person receives, without having to further qualify or apply for it, once they meet a standard (such as being age 65). Relentlessly repeating it to exploit a more common pejorative connotation ( a person who thinks they deserve more than everyone else, and that the rules don't apply to them) is really a masterful example of propaganda technique. Unfortunately, it is very effective.
posted by thelonius at 1:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

For me, in regard to SHS, I see a wife from the Handmaid’s Tale. Someone very complicit in the mechanism of oppression even in her own. My dislike is, unfortunately, further fueled by the trope of Southern accented Bible thumper. I try to separate the fact she willfully lies on the behalf of such a mendacious and menacing administration from the stereotype of PTA/P&C tin pot Machiavelli. In the end, I dislike Spicy and her.
posted by jadepearl at 1:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

I've taken to immediately asking people who use these terms if they are community destroyers or social injustice advocates.

In the UK, at least, a lot of perfectly rational regulations are bogey-manned by Daily Mail types as the scourge of "Health & Safety". I always want to ask them which they hate more, health or safety, and whether they have as little concern for the health and safety of their own family as they do for other people's.
posted by Grangousier at 1:19 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

CNN: Former Trump campaign adviser Michael Caputo says "he never heard of" George Papadopoulos: "He was the coffee boy"

Unclear how he knows it was the "coffee boy" if he'd "never heard of" him.
posted by dnash at 1:19 PM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

Sean Spicer gave us the compelling spectacle of a man doing something he was spectacularly awful at, day after day after day, with no improvement. He looked constantly stressed out, couldn't get through a sentence without two or three bizarre malapropisms, routinely got into shouting matches with individual reporters, and on one occasion offered an unprompted defense of Adolf Hitler.

Which got him into Harvard!

Go Meritocracy!!
posted by srboisvert at 1:20 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

I had a professor who called it "global weirding," which is evocative but probably not the best to use for a rallying slogan.
posted by showbiz_liz

were you on Arrakis?
posted by the phlegmatic king at 1:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [31 favorites]

I think of "Climate Change" as "Rapid Climate Change". It's happening much more quickly than we're able or prepared to adapt to.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

demigods who walk the earth and to whom you little folks should show swift, docile obedience and gratitude to for any scrap they throw your way --> CEOs (implied when they say "job creators")

In other musings, this past Sunday, I visited the LBJ Nat'l and State Park out in Hye, Texas, just outside of Johnson City, about 50 miles from Austin. If you're ever out in Central Texas, I highly recommend you visit it, regardless of your political leanings. It's fun and informative, and it's very close to several of Texas' increasingly good wineries.

Anyway, while touring the ranch home Johnson used as his WH away from the WH, I was struck by the fact that there was at least one television and one phone in nearly every room. The park ranger leading the tour also pointed out that LBJ had a 70 foot phone cord stretched out to the pool so that he could make calls from there as well.

She told us that he did this because he was often working 18 hour days and that he kept the televisions on not just for general news but for news about himself in particular. In all, she noted, Johnson spent about 1/4 of his time in office out at this Texas Hill Country ranch.

It immediately occurred to me that there were some superficial similarities to both W and the 45th President: lots of time spent away from DC on a ranch (W) and an obsession with the media and his portrayal therein (45). I could see how a conservative or even a self-declared independent could use these facts to say "See, both parties are the same, what are you criticizing W and 45 for?"

But the similarities are very superficial: LBJ was actually putting in serious work. His cabinet went out to the ranch, he received heads of state there, he was on the phone constantly, using his infamous bluster and coarseness to bully allies and foes alike in to passing all kinds of legislature that had a positive effect on the country. You can't say the same of W or the 45th President.

And by the time the tour was over, I think that had my kids not been with me, I would have found a spot out on the park grounds to seclude myself and cry over how far we've fallen when it comes to the presidency.

LBJ was complicated....and capable. I know there's a hell of a lot of criticism that could be leveled at him. But he had a vision that included bringing more of the benefits of living in a first world country to all Americans -- not just the so-called "real" ones or the ones in states that voted for his party.

I just can't even when I think about how we go from that to this. I'm very glad that my friends and I went to one of the aforementioned wineries right after, and I was able to drink away thoughts about this subject. (NB: I wasn't driving.)

I hope and pray that history (assuming there is some) is not kind at all to Trump and his accomplices and handlers.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:22 PM on October 31, 2017 [53 favorites]

After being loudly and publicly demoted from "foreign policy advisor" to "coffee boy," I bet George Papadopoulos is feeling pretty good about his role in selling out and screwing over the lot of them.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 1:23 PM on October 31, 2017 [72 favorites]

Oh hey, it's Gorka parked illegally on the sidewalk in Arlington, VA. (Why no, I am not too petty to share this, thank you very much.)
posted by zachlipton at 1:27 PM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

One deleted, maybe enough on the phrase 'climate change' in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:28 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

I'm sure there will be a separate post soon to discuss details, but heads up about this:

Special Report: Multiple People Injured in Downtown New York City

Car drove down a bike path and sidewalk for 7 blocks. They’re calling it terrorism.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:28 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

I remember back when Bill Clinton was first elected, how the right-wingers (media and otherwise) got their collective undies in a HUGE wad over Hillary Rodham Clinton. How dare she keep her birth name, even as a middle name! How dare she not abjure her birth identity entirely and subsume it in that of her husband!

But I guess it's OK if you're a Republican and your birth name is "Huckabee."

Before I upset anyone - I don't care what married women do with their names. Keep, change, you do you. I just hate IOKIYAR hypocrisy.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:31 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

They’re calling it terrorism.

Who is "they"? The word terrorism doesn't appear in that article.
posted by Roommate at 1:31 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Washington Monthly: Who is Michael Caputo and What Can He Tell Us?

Corey Lewandowski sure can't, because according to Lewandowski, Caputo himself was just a "volunteer:"

At the top, I have him referring to himself as a “Senior Adviser” and a “director of communications for caucus operations at the 2016 Republican Convention.” Directing the caucus operations was the job Manafort initially took (with no pay) for the Trump campaign. But the New York Times describes him more vaguely as “communications adviser.” They also say that he spent six months on the campaign, while his LinkedIn page pegs his time served at only three months. As for Lewandowski, when he was asked on MSNBC about Caputo’s Wizard of Oz tweet, he said “I don’t know Michael Caputo, and he was never paid by the campaign. He was a volunteer, and so he’s welcome to tweet anything he wants.” Finally, the New York Times reveals that Caputo worked for “Gazprom Media, a Russian conglomerate that supported President Vladimir V. Putin” in the early 2000’s.

Putin? Russia? Gazprom?

Caputo’s LinkedIn page says that he worked at Allegiance Telecom as a vice-president from June 2001 to June 2003. It doesn’t list any other employment for him until he shows up as the publisher of PoliticsNY.net in January of 2013. He apparently spent all the intervening time as the president of his own public relations firm, aptly named Caputo Public Relations with clients like Sergio’s Restaurants, Princeton Strategic Communications, the Job Creators Network, Carl Paladino for Governor, and Bloc Lytvyn.

What is Bloc Lytvyn, you ask? Let’s see. It must have something to do with this guy Volodymyr Lytvyn who received the Russian Order of Friendship Award back in 2011. Or, if you prefer, you can go here to see a picture of Lytvyn shaking hands with Vladimir Putin in 2002. There are Ukrainian politicians, and then there are Ukrainian politicians who win Russian friendship awards. Michael Caputo worked on behalf of the latter.

Wait, he worked for Russian backed pols in Ukraine, too?
posted by notyou at 1:32 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Sean Spicer was bad at his job

Fluttering Hellfire has it. There's a comic aura to Sean Spicer. You could almost see the flop-sweat. He reminded me a little of that Iraqi press secretary that was forced to go on camera claiming everything was fine as the city was falling apart behind him. That made him much less threatening, and so less hateable.

SHS shovels the same lies, but does so calmly and with a smile. If you were an uninformed voter you might like her and her aww-shucks charm. Then she uses that charm to support vile, vile people and policies. She's doing work, in a way Sean Spicer never was.
posted by kingjoeshmoe at 1:32 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

They’re calling it terrorism.

No they are not. I've been following this very intently for the past half hour or so (reading all new tweets and articles and listening to the police scanner). All that is known so far is that a man in a rented pickup truck drove down the West Side cycleway for several blocks and struck a bunch of cyclists and pedestrians. Reports of shots fired are unconfirmed and may be attributable to the police. One person is in custody. NOTHING ELSE IS KNOWN SO FAR.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:33 PM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Way to make sure, too, that your remaining subordinates and staff, who are all selfish assholes driven by ego and status and the desire to be seen as important, receive a fresh reminder of how they will lose all status and will not be defended if they get in trouble.

I want to believe this, but I fear the actual response will be the classic refuge of the abused party in an abusive relationship: he's not going to be like that with me! I'm special! He really cares about me! He can change!
posted by yasaman at 1:33 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

In the UK, at least, a lot of perfectly rational regulations are bogey-manned by Daily Mail types as the scourge of "Health & Safety". I always want to ask them which they hate more, health or safety, and whether they have as little concern for the health and safety of their own family as they do for other people's.

I like to point out to such folks that the 2012 Olympics in London were the first ones ever where nobody was killed building the stadiums and infrastructure. This was on a project that employed 46,000 people over the course of the work and where up to 3 deaths were expected within the risk tolerances.

I tend to follow up by asking how many people they thought should die to deliver such a project. Usually ends in spluttering.
posted by Happy Dave at 1:35 PM on October 31, 2017 [69 favorites]

Unclear how he knows it was the "coffee boy" if he'd "never heard of" him.

See also Kelly/Trump/Fox News's party line about how Manafort was done with all his collusion before he ever joined the campaign. In a Poirot novel that's where the detective would exclaim "Aha!" and everyone from villains to reader would realize the implicit confession in that statement.
posted by aspersioncast at 1:36 PM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

Who is "they"? The word terrorism doesn't appear in that article.

From Twitter, it appears that Fox News and/or the usual internet idiots may be muddying the waters here; I'd say treat all information as speculation until confirmation by NYPD.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:36 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

It immediately occurred to me that there were some superficial similarities to both W and the 45th President

Trump (and his tiny hands) wishes he had a certain similarity to LBJ...

But lord knows if he did he'd probably be even worse about showing it off.
posted by elsietheeel at 1:38 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Who is "they"? The word terrorism doesn't appear in that article.

They were on Nicole Wallace’s show, and they may have been wrong or walked it back. Apologies.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Fuck. I meant intentional. Sorry.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:40 PM on October 31, 2017

marshmallow peep: Daily reminder that Sarah Huckabee Sanders is ~~a national disgrace~~ the right person for the job of condensing the terrible thoughts and words of our current president into (re)tweetable bits and bites.

Is she terrible? Yes.

But is she misrepresenting this administration? Nope. I'm sure she's adding her own personal stink to the words of the current President, but they're still his ideas. Trump has not reprimanded her, or any other of his public supporters, for misspeaking on his behalf. Which means, she is accurately speaking for him.

tl;dr: don't mistake the messenger for the messages from Trump.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Here's what the NYPD has said so far:

The following information is preliminary as the investigation is ongoing. A media briefing will take place later.
Earlier a vehicle entered the West St. pedestrian/bike path a few blocks north of Chambers St.
The vehicle struck multiple people on the path. There are several fatalities and numerous people injured.
The vehicle continued south striking another vehicle. The suspect exited the vehicle displaying imitation firearms & was shot by NYPD
The suspect is in custody. This is preliminary, more information to follow.

There are obviously other accounts and rumors flying around, but I believe that's the only official statement at this point.
posted by zachlipton at 1:44 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Can we maybe keep the NYC thing out of this thread entirely until we know what the hell it was, and whether it has any relevance here?
posted by neroli at 1:47 PM on October 31, 2017 [23 favorites]

CNN: The driver exited the vehicle displaying imitation firearms and was shot by police, according to the NYPD. The individual is in police custody and is being taken to the hospital for treatment, sources at the NYPD said, adding that police are considering terrorism as part of the investigation.

There were several fatalities and numerous people injured, NYPD said in a tweet. Two senior law enforcement sources added that it appears to be deliberate act.

posted by zarq at 1:49 PM on October 31, 2017

Can we maybe keep the NYC thing out of this thread entirely until we know what the hell it was, and whether it has any relevance here?

Agreed; I know it's an upsetting incident but right now we're just sort collectively vibrating because A Thing Happened while there's close to zero information. Let's leave it be for now and if there turns out to be something more substantial to discuss than Rando Commits Violent Act, we can catch up on it then.
posted by cortex at 1:54 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

As a panic prophylactic: one of the early civilian twitter videos at the scene speculated about terrorism. That’s the only place I heard it.
posted by schadenfrau at 1:54 PM on October 31, 2017

(early, because trick or treating tonight)

ELECTIONS NEWS

** 2018 House:

-- Mentioned earlier, Jeb Hensarling (R) will not be running for re-election in TX-05. This is a solidly R district (Romney 65-34, Trump 63-34).

-- This retirement brings the number of retirements to 28 (18 Rs, 10 Ds).

** 2018 Senate:

-- Dem Senators up for re-election from Trump states have high approval numbers. [The Hill]

-- MTSU poll shows possible candidates in TN race (Rep. Blackburn and former Gov. Bredesen) with similar approval numbers.

** AL Senate special -- Axis Research poll gives Moore 56-39 lead on Jones.

** VA gov:

-- WP/GMU poll has Northam up 49-44.

-- Lots and lots of money being poured into the race. [WP]

-- Voter contacts also very high.

** Odds & ends:

-- Cook Political: Trump may be leading the GOP to electoral Armageddon.

-- DKE analysis for Virginia House of Delegates, predicts gain of 5-8 seats.

posted by Chrysostom at 1:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [28 favorites]

There's something I don't understand about Paul Manafort's wire transfers. Large wire transfers from overseas countries known for money laundering would seem to be the dumbest possible way to launder money. From what I read the government noticed as far back as 2012. Why in the world wouldn't Manafort come up with a more sophisticated money laundering scheme?
posted by rdr at 1:58 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

aspersioncast See also Kelly/Trump/Fox News's party line about how Manafort was done with all his collusion before he ever joined the campaign.

If the best defense they can muster is "well, yeah, he was a criminal and a foreign agent, but he ended his crime spree and **TOTALLY** came back to being a loyal American before we hired him" then all I can say is dang.

Because, as you note, then yes they're basically admitting they knew fully well that Manafort was a criminal and a foreign agent with deep ties to Russia and still hired him. I suppose they imagine the alternative defense ("we had no idea Manafort was a criminal Russian agent") would have made them look too incompetent?

Either way, dang.

In a sane world that alone would result in the President resigning or being impeached. Hiring a known criminal and foreign agent to run your campaign should be a career ending move for any politician. But we've gone down the wrong trouser leg of time, and here in Trump World we're learning that there is literally nothing, no matter how incompetent, criminal, foolhardy, or just plain evil, that Trump can do that the other Republicans won't excuse and defend.
posted by sotonohito at 1:58 PM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

as you note, then yes they're basically admitting they knew fully well that Manafort was a criminal and a foreign agent with deep ties to Russia and still hired him

They haven't said that. I want someone to ask them, "did Trump decide to hire a guy who was a criminal and foreign agent, and believes that made him one of the Best People, or did the guy dupe him and Trump was fooled by a con man?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

Why in the world wouldn't Manafort come up with a more sophisticated money laundering scheme?

Have you seen Netflix series Ozark? It seems... kind of like that. Manafort hoped to make the transactions less suspicious by sending them to businesses, not direct to accounts, and for certain types of business, and below a certain threshold, that kind of works. But he just had so much money... too much to run properly... and only so many options for laundering it...
posted by halation at 2:11 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

did Trump decide to hire a guy who was a criminal and foreign agent, and believes that made him one of the Best People, or did the guy dupe him and Trump was fooled by a con man?

It was pointed out many, many threads ago but it bears repeating: Trump would totally fall for the DID YOU ORDER THE CODE RED trick. And he wouldn't need to be badgered and insulted into it like Colonel Jessup seeing as how Trump is a narcissistic moron.
posted by Justinian at 2:12 PM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

Marcy Wheeler: George Papadopoulos’s Plea Deal Is Very, Very Bad News for Attorney General Jeff Sessions

Democracy Now: Marcy Wheeler Says Indictments in Russia Probe Further Incriminate Attorney General Jeff Sessions
posted by homunculus at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [51 favorites]

the thickheaded mainstream media has to understand that COLLUSION IS NOT AN ACTUAL CRIME

I’m not sure it’s good for me to be this angry but here we are anyway.
posted by corb at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

It's the Bart Simpson defense: I didn't do it; nobody saw me; you can't prove anything; that's not actually a crime.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

I think Manafort's problem was that he had too much money not to have it laundered, but not enough money to pay someone to launder it properly.
posted by notyou at 2:27 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

It was the Donald Trump Defense years before Bart Simpson (when you add throwing lawyers and bribes at the problem... why do you think Rudy Giuliani became one of his big fans?).
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Chris Matthews was on Rachel Maddow last night, mostly talking about Bobby Kennedy, and a little bit about Trump. The video is worth a watch.
posted by gudrun at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Have you seen Netflix series Ozark? It seems... kind of like that. Manafort hoped to make the transactions less suspicious by sending them to businesses, not direct to accounts, and for certain types of business, and below a certain threshold, that kind of works. But he just had so much money... too much to run properly... and only so many options for laundering it...

They took down New York's governor on a transfer of less than 20K.

The investigation of Spitzer was reportedly initiated after North Fork Bank[2] reported suspicious transactions to the Treasury Department's Financial Crimes Enforcement Network as required by the Bank Secrecy Act, which was enhanced by Patriot Act provisions, enacted to combat terrorist activity such as money-laundering.[3] Spitzer reportedly had at least seven liaisons with prostitutes from the agency over six months, and paid more than $15,000 for their services. - Wikipedia - Eliot Spitzer prostitution scandal

Do the Feds only proactively investigate Democratic Party politicians for suspicious cash transfers?
posted by srboisvert at 2:38 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

In case you need a laughAlex Jones says something hilarious.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:43 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don't think it matters at all whether Papadoc was the coffee boy, a volunteer or whatever - he was there, he had access, and he's singing. It also doesn't matter if tax shenanigans take over the news cycle for a while - the chances of it being another clusterfuck for the GOP are very high, and what actually matters in the Russia investigation is going on behind closed doors and is being conducted by a group of extremely qualified and motivated grown-ups.

They won't care, and neither should we.
posted by Devonian at 2:48 PM on October 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

Do the Feds only proactively investigate Democratic Party politicians for suspicious cash transfers?

Dennis Hastert's (R former Speaker of the House) suspicious withdrawals triggered the investigation which resulted in his downfall. I believe he was paying someone he had molested when that someone was a child.
posted by jointhedance at 2:51 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Do the Feds only proactively investigate Democratic Party politicians for suspicious cash transfers?

They may investigate suspicious cash transfers for many politicians; they do it a lot less for people involved in real estate. If the people involved had other business activities at the time, it doesn't raise the same red flags. And if the transfers went directly to an offshore account and then were funneled into buying property here (I may have scrambled something, but I thought that was what happened?) it's a lot harder to track.

what actually matters in the Russia investigation is going on behind closed doors and is being conducted by a group of extremely qualified and motivated grown-ups.

This this this. It really doesn't matter how much of a media storm it is or isn't, other than for our collection of entertaining tweets. The investigation isn't going to slow down if there are tax budget shenanigans causing drama in Congress.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 2:53 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

The moral of the story is to just withdraw all the money you want at once. One $40,000 withdrawal is not that suspicious when you've got money and/or power. Four 10k withdrawals will bring the pain upon yourself.
posted by Justinian at 2:54 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

They took down New York's governor on a transfer of less than 20K.

Spitzer made the transaction *from* a New York bank, so it fell under US wire transfer reporting requirements for transactions initiated from US banks or sent to US banks. (It technically didn't fall under those reporting requirements, since Spitzer split the payments in an effort to stay under the reporting threshold, but the bank cottoned on and reported anyway.) Manafort initiated his transfers from non-US banks. The US-based businesses receiving the wire transfers here would have been subject to reporting, and presumably (if legitimate businesses) paid (at least some) tax on them, since they were being sent as payment for services (ostensibly) rendered.

Manafort was filing *some form* of a tax return each year, and the transactions were meant to look like legitimate transactions from the pot of money he was reporting, though they were coming from a separate pot of unreported money. It's obviously shady, and raised suspicions years back, but presumably he reported enough legitimate income to (try and) make it look as though these were quasi-legitimate transfers.

Hastert was noticed thanks to a different set of monitoring requirements involving the withdrawal of cash, not wire transfers.
posted by halation at 2:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump Invokes The Name Of Lalex's City.

Link not safe for lalex.
posted by Justinian at 3:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [70 favorites]

Reporter tackled to the ground and arrested while covering Ed Gillespie campaign event
posted by jgirl at 3:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Donald Trump Invokes The Name Of Lalex's City.

it's been a while since i've been there but im pretty sure lalex's city is in the usa bro
posted by entropicamericana at 3:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Lots of speculation in the response to his tweet, though. "THIS IS WHY WE NEED EXTREME VETTING" crap.
posted by hanov3r at 3:10 PM on October 31, 2017

no mention/speculation on the suspect's religion or the color of his skin? Acceptable.

from what I'm seeing the suspect has a very Russian sounding last name and did not come from a country covered under the travel ban, soooooo
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:12 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

It goes without saying but the comments on that tweet get real graphic real quick

and i mean literally graphic, the xenophobic gore cartoons are right up top at the moment
posted by halation at 3:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Politico: Mueller schedules interview with Hope Hicks

President Donald Trump’s longtime aide and current communications director, Hope Hicks, is scheduled to speak with special counsel Robert Mueller’s team in mid-November, following the president’s trip to Asia, multiple people familiar with the schedule told POLITICO.

Mueller’s team is also expected to interview three or four other current White House officials as early as this week, according to an administration official.

If Mueller is moving on to current White House officials, things are moving fast.
posted by zachlipton at 3:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [71 favorites]

Donald Trump's do something exhortation having immediate effects.
posted by dng at 3:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

He has Fox to do that for him. Hannity said "REPORTS SAY HE YELLED 'ALLAHU AKBAR!'" about 137 times.
posted by delfin at 3:19 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

The Washington Post has a write-up too, if you're not fond of the Examiner: Six police officers subdued and handcuffed a reporter covering Ed Gillespie. An officer said it was for swearing.
posted by zachlipton

I am not fond of it, so thank you. I found it via this, from a former GOP staffer/operative. Ironically he was a journo as well. He is supposedly a volunteer reserve officer. Cops support Ed.
posted by jgirl at 3:21 PM on October 31, 2017

Hope Hicks, is scheduled to speak with special counsel Robert Mueller’s team in mid-November, following the president’s trip to Asia.

Hoo boy, that'll be some fun trip. Hours and hours and days and days flying around the globe confined in a tiny little plane with Trump fully conscious that she's going to see Mueller as soon as they return to DC. I'm sure that won't be uncomfortable and that he won't say anything at all inappropriate or intimidating.

Bonus prize: the rest of the WH inner circle sitting in the cabin staring right at her the whole time wondering if she's going to save herself and kill them all. Good times!
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:44 PM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

TPM: Papadopoulos Charges With The Mystery Trump Camp Officials Filled In

"High-ranking campaign official" and similar phrases replaced with actual names.
posted by ryanrs at 3:46 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

Details are sketchy, but potential boom alert from Bloomberg: Papadopoulos Claimed Trump Campaign Approved Russia Meeting

Former Trump adviser George Papadopoulos made a significant claim in an email: Top Trump campaign officials agreed to a pre-election meeting with representatives of Russian President Vladimir Putin, Bloomberg News reports.

The message, if true, would bolster claims that Trump’s campaign attempted to collude with Russian interests. But it’s unclear whether Papadopoulos, who pleaded guilty to lying to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, was merely boasting when he sent the July 14, 2016, email to a Kremlin-linked contact. There’s also no indication such a meeting ever occurred.

This is apparently another email from Papadopolous to his Russian contacts.
posted by zachlipton at 3:48 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

it's weird how the media is characterizing a ShareBlue hack as a "journalist" now. it's the same operation that funds an online trolling operation for targeted harassment of leftists online.
posted by indubitable at 3:49 PM on October 31, 2017

I SWEAR TO GOD IF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES GETS ON TV OR SOCIAL MEDIA TODAY AND INVOKES THE NAME OF MY CITY WHILST SPEWING HIS VILE, DERANGED BRAND OF BIGOTRY I AM GOING TO LOSE. MY. SHIT.

Give him a few hours. He does his ~~best~~ worst at 3am.
posted by zarq at 3:49 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

'I want to quit': Fox News employees say their network's Russia coverage was 'an embarrassment'
posted by ActingTheGoat at 3:54 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

Hoo boy, that'll be some fun trip. Hours and hours and days and days flying around the globe confined in a tiny little plane with Trump fully conscious that she's going to see Mueller as soon as they return to DC. I'm sure that won't be uncomfortable and that he won't say anything at all inappropriate or intimidating.

Bonus prize: the rest of the WH inner circle sitting in the cabin staring right at her the whole time wondering if she's going to save herself and kill them all. Good times!

I wonder if Mueller and his team are deliberately choosing to interview Hicks right then, in hopes that the psychological stress will make her say more than she otherwise might. In any event, I wouldn't be surprised if Mueller hears more singing than a whole aviary full of canaries, because Trump and his associates are not the kind who inspire loyalty.

Mueller is an eleventy-dimensional chess player. Trump and his Team Of All-Stars can barely manage regular old tic-tac-toe.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 3:55 PM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

And one “senior policy advisor” referenced in the document has yet to be identified.

Racist elf
Racist elf
Racist elf
posted by schadenfrau at 3:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [38 favorites]

It's weird how the White House was insistent that we couldn't talk about guns "before we know all the facts" after Las Vegas, but now Trump is on Twitter ranting about ISIS before he gets around to bothering to say anything about thoughts and prayers 25 minutes later.
posted by zachlipton at 3:59 PM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

it's weird how the media is characterizing a ShareBlue hack as a "journalist" now. it's the same operation that funds an online trolling operation for targeted harassment of leftists online.

I'm not familiar with ShareBlue and I probably wouldn't want them to have White House press pass, but I don't know that this guy deserved to be tackled by 6 cops and arrested. I have a much lower bar for, "being allowed to report in public without being assaulted and arrested" than I do for "is this turkey credible?" It isn't the job of the police to make this determination and way too many journalists get arrested by overaggressive policing .
posted by ActingTheGoat at 4:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

8 people dead - A MILLION THINGS MUST CHANGE!!!

59 people dead - nothing we can do.
posted by chris24 at 4:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [75 favorites]

Whoever this fuck is, I’m glad the only guns he was able to get were fake.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

And one “senior policy advisor” referenced in the document has yet to be identified.

Racist elf

I think it could also be Stephen Miller, though (racist... Smeagol?), who would probably lead back to Sessions anyway...
posted by Emera Gratia at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

'I want to quit': Fox News employees say their network's Russia coverage was 'an embarrassment'

They're suprised, or they live in a continual state of embarrassment?
posted by Artw at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: We must not allow ISIS to return, or enter, our country after defeating them in the Middle East and elsewhere. Enough!

We must not allow ISIS to return our country? I hadn't even realized it had been taken!
posted by hanov3r at 4:02 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

We must not allow ISIS to return, or enter, our country after defeating them in the Middle East and elsewhere. Enough!

Implication here is that the various muslim bans are meant to be permanent, even if and when ISIS (or whatever terrorist flavor of the month) is rendered geopolitically powerless.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:07 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Details are sketchy, but potential boom alert from Bloomberg: Papadopoulos Claimed Trump Campaign Approved Russia Meeting

Per the Post’s reporting, the “high-ranking campaign official” was former campaign manager Corey Lewandowski

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeze.
posted by Room 641-A at 4:08 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

Sorry if this has been covered; a search didn't find it on the site, but I haven't kept up with the last few days: Abramson: The Impeachable Crime from which the cover-up flows; Daily Kos roundup of tweets describing the crime trail - before the current conviction was released. I'm skipping over a few, but they're all in the article.

(THREAD) This thread shows how Trump aided (18 U.S.C. § 2) Russian computer fraud (18 U.S.C. § 1030)—an impeachable offense.
1/ 18 U.S.C. § 2 prohibits aiding, abetting, or procuring a crime against the U.S. The penalty is the same as for the underlying offense.
3/ There must be a crime. You must know the crime is afoot beforehand. You must aid, abet, or procure it. And you must intend to facilitate.
4/ 17 intelligence agencies concur—Russia committed computer fraud in an effort to hack our election systems on or just before Election Day.
8/ He was told these computer crimes were ongoing—which he'd acknowledged on July 27 by calling for more such crimes. ["Russia, if you're listening..."]
9/ Under 18 U.S.C. § 2, one's knowledge of the crime need not be ironclad. You just need to know there's a "high likelihood" it will occur.
12/ The only question is whether Trump took steps to "facilitate" the crime in a way that aided, abetted or procured it under 18 U.S.C. § 2.
16/ For our purposes, the most important of the three terms we're now focused on—"aid"; "abet"; "procure"—is the last of these: procurement.
18/ So the only question—under federal law—is whether Trump directly or indirectly funded Russia's computer crimes after August 17th, 2016.
23/ Sessions now admits to having communicated to Ambassador Kislyak the Trump campaign's position on US-Russia sanctions—that is, against.
24/ The legal problem for Trump here is that his position supports an unmitigated financial benefit for Russia—essentially a pecuniary gift.
33/ On March 31, Papadopoulos revealed himself as a Kremlin agent to Trump himself at the Trump International in DC.
35/ The reason this matters is that Trump didn't fire Papadopoulos. He made him one of his spokesmen on Russia policy for over six months.
37/ These representations—plus Mike Flynn's to Kislyak in December—signaled to Putin that he'd receive a monetary benefit for helping Trump.
40/ Under 18 U.S.C. § 2 and 18 U.S.C. § 1030, directly or indirectly promising no-strings-attached payments to a criminal actor is a crime.

And it goes on to connect the dots a bit more, pointing out what would've made all this irrelevant (Trump changing his policy, being less adamant about removing all sanctions, etc.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 4:09 PM on October 31, 2017 [28 favorites]

@unrealDonaldTrump: We must not allow The Confederacy to return, or enter, our country after defeating them in Gettysburg and elsewhere. Enough!

@unrealDonaldTrump: We must not allow Nazis to return, or enter, our country after defeating them in Europe and elsewhere. Enough!

@unrealDonaldTrump: We must not allow Russia to return, or enter, our country after defeating them in the Cold War and elsewhere. Enough!

@unrealDonaldTrump: We must not allow Mob-Connected Real Estate Fraudsters to return, or enter, our country after defeating them... oh, waitminute, we never defeated them...
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [17 favorites]

Another thing I thought of: it looks like Mueller's MO is to get at the young, scared underlings first and induce them to flip. Unless Hicks has more loyalty and more backbone than I give her credit for, Hicks might be a good person to try and flip because she is white, affluent, educated, and female - the demographic least likely to get on the wrong side of law enforcement and, thus, potenitally very easy to frighten. ("You're going to prison, Ms. Hicks, and you will not get a book out of it like Piper Kerman did.")

At any rate, it wouldn't surprise me at all if George Papadopoulos has not only been singing his little heart out, but he's been wearing a wire as well. There is no code of omertá in this administration, and no loyalty to Trump because he's such an awesome boss.

And that reminds me, if there's enough goods on Sessions to haul him in for questioning (at the very least), what loyalty is he going to have for a man who publicly berated and humiliated him in front of his colleagues? Honk, honk, there goes the bus.

I hope all the people swept up in the FBI net sing like canaries and flip like pancakes.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 4:11 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Whoever this fuck is, I’m glad the only guns he was able to get were fake.

Yeah. We're going to have a million gun rights morons screaming "See!? You can totally kill people with a truck, too!" without ever noticing that this guy could've killed way more people with guns if he could've obtained them more easily.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:12 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Oh ISIS has been defeated then?
posted by Artw at 4:12 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Ahahaha Comey tweeted again:

“Man’s capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man’s inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.”
posted by Room 641-A at 4:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

1 day delay on tax bill to smooth out details. There have apparently been some frantic meetings today over such trivial details as how to pay for it.

thisisfine.gif
posted by zachlipton at 4:20 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

There is no code of omertá in this administration

If only the same could be said for Paul Ryan and the House GOP.

McCarthy: There's two people I think Putin pays: Rohrabacher and Trump. Swear to God.
Ryan: This is an off the record . . .[laughter] NO LEAKS! . . . [laughter]... All right?
Ryan: This is how we know we’re a real family here.
Scalise: That’s how you know that we’re tight.
Ryan: What’s said in the family stays in the family.
posted by Rust Moranis at 4:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

Hoo boy, that'll be some fun trip. Hours and hours and days and days flying around the globe confined in a tiny little plane with Trump.

Oh ALSO, remember that the last time Hope and Donny took a nice long plane trip together, it was the time Trump dictated the false Don. Jr. Russian meeting explanation to her. So this week should be a fun reminder of something Mueller will probably want to talk about with her AT LENGTH!
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

This, I think, is largely a scientist-initiated change, which came about largely due to numpties saying things like "but this year was unexpectedly the coldest and extreme winter ever, therefore there is no warming and no problem!". I'll agree the term isn't nearly terrifying enough.

Weather of mass destruction.
posted by Autumnheart at 4:41 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

it's weird how the media is characterizing a ShareBlue hack as a "journalist" now. it's the same operation that funds an online trolling operation for targeted harassment of leftists online.

ShareBlue is doing some great writing this days. Among the excellent writers they have are (MetaFilter's own) Oliver Willis. I think you must be thinking of some other site. In any case, hopefully you're not actually advocating for police assault of people with whom you disagree.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Why should I dissociate ShareBlue from David Brock, whose execrable "Correct the Record" operation seemed to put out the same kind of propaganda against Bernie Sanders and his supporters that other organizations distributed against Clinton?
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 5:05 PM on October 31, 2017

Violence against a journalist is, of course, also execrable.
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 5:06 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don't know what you're talking about. Reddit apparently thinks ShareBlue is part of Hillary Clinton's pizza shop pedophile ring. If violence against a journalist is indeed execrable, then why are you complaining about how mean somebody associated with ShareBlue is rather than talking about fascists beating up reporters?
posted by hydropsyche at 5:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

> @unrealDonaldTrump: We must not allow Nazis to return, or enter, our country after defeating them in Europe and elsewhere. Enough!

I've been fighting to Make America Nazi-Free Again all afternoon, and I have to say, it's surprisingly therapeutic!
posted by homunculus at 5:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Roy Moore Demands Congress Impeach Judge Who Blocked Trump's Trans Ban (Eleanor Sheehan, Splinter)

Charging Kollar-Kotelly with “judicial activism,” Moore demanded her impeachment. “Not only has she placed herself about the Constitution in finding such a nonexistent right, but she has also interfered with the powers of the President as Commander in Chief,” he said, conveniently forgetting that other time he was removed from Alabama’s Supreme Court bench for refusing to remove a statue of the Ten Commandments from the court house.

This is not the first time Moore has called for the impeachment of federal judges. Supreme Court Justices who allowed same-sex marriage to become law should also be impeached, Moore told a crowd in mid-October.

posted by Room 641-A at 5:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

hydropsyche: you said that "ShareBlue is doing some great writing these days." I have avoided their content because it was started by David Brock, and because every headline I've seen linked from them turns up the outrage to 7. I responded because I'm curious why I should read ShareBlue content, what makes it "great writing".

What does reddit have to do with what I wrote, or with the comment by zachlipton to which you responded? What's wrong with noting both violence and the origin story of an apparent propaganda site in a general politics thread? This isn't the 'journalist beating' thread to the exclusion of anything else.
posted by Radiophonic Oddity at 5:17 PM on October 31, 2017

I support Moore on this.

It will clear the ground for a purge of Trump's judges come 2018.
posted by ocschwar at 5:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

My point in bringing up what Reddit thinks about ShareBlue is that everybody seems to have hot takes on it, but none of y'all actually seem to be reading it. Oliver Willis is writing good stuff there. David Brock's Media Matters does good work. Sorry if you don't like it. Journalists should not be beat up by fascists.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:22 PM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

CNN reporting that police officials saying the NY truck driver is from Uzbekistan.
posted by hanov3r at 5:22 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Hicks might be a good person to try and flip because she is white, affluent, educated, and female

In spite of his being both an old educated affluent white man and a Republican, I think a little bit better of Mueller than to imagine his 'strategy' consists of figuring girls scare easier than boys. he would not have the record he does if that was the level of his thinking.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:23 PM on October 31, 2017 [26 favorites]

Yes, fluttering hellfire, I saw it live! It was the greatest ever!
posted by Don Pepino at 5:35 PM on October 31, 2017

BuzzFeed, Citing The Bible, The EPA Just Changed Its Rules For Science Advisors

The Environmental Protection Agency announced on Tuesday afternoon sweeping changes to who can advise the agency on its research and regulatory priorities, opening the door to more industry participation.

Effective immediately, scientists who receive EPA funding cannot serve on the agency's three major advisory groups. Some Republican lawmakers have been pushing for similar changes to the agency's advisory boards for years.

"We want to ensure that there’s integrity in the process and that the scientists that are advising us are doing so without any type of appearance of conflict of interest," EPA head Scott Pruitt said at a press conference announcing the directive.

Pruitt used a story from the Book of Joshua to help explain the new policy.

On the journey to the promised land, "Joshua says to the people of Israel: choose this day whom you are going to serve," Pruitt said. "This is sort of like the Joshua principle — that as it relates to grants from this agency, you are going to have to choose either service on the committee to provide counsel to us in an independent fashion or chose the grant. But you can’t do both. That’s the fair and great thing to do."

I'm pretty sure he's got theological problems with his analysis here, but that's really the least of why this is so screwed up.
posted by zachlipton at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2017 [76 favorites]

I mean it kind of makes sense though it's obviously an attempt to lower the caliber of scientists advising the government

I don't really think there's a theological issue so much as it's just an unnecessarily sectarian metaphor to use.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:48 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

I mean, what it does is subtly insinuate that people who are culturally Christian (and Jewish but um not really) are the ones who run things, with *our* cultural metaphors and *our* narratives. And that people who aren't Christian are other.

And that's fucked up.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:50 PM on October 31, 2017 [34 favorites]

"This is sort of like the Joshua principle — that as it relates to grants from this agency, you are going to have to choose either service on the committee to provide counsel to us in an independent fashion or chose the grant."

I prefer the Elisha principle, as it relates to EPA administrators being eaten by bears.
posted by Rust Moranis at 5:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [31 favorites]

Well obviously you wouldn't want scientists serving on the committees that award their own grants (and I'll bet both halves of King Solomon's baby that the EPA already has those kinds of controls in place), but I forgot the rest of my point because a trick-or-treating dinosaur came to the door and demanded candy lest it deliver an extinction event upon my abode.
posted by notyou at 5:53 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

Ah, good old 2 Kings 2:23. I used to read that story to my kids as a bedtime story when I was a counselor at church camp.

Go on up, baldy!
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:54 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

The point is to push out researchers in favor of entirely industry voices. DOW Chemical doesn't need EPA grants, but it would love to sit on the advisory board that sets science standards for the entire EPA, especially when there's no other voices allowed to be heard because everyone else is dependent on grant money.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [36 favorites]

And I have given you a land for which you did not labor, and cities which you did not build, and you have settled in them; of the vineyards and oliveyards which you did not plant, you eat.

Sounds about right.

Disregarding the standard Christian bullshit of demanding that people believe the same shit they do no matter the setting, it's peak arrogance to compare yourself to G-d, then tell the people you employ that they need to serve you under a similar oath of fealty. If he had said the same thing in plain language we'd see people calling out that megalomaniacal crap out for what it really is. But he's using a Biblical metaphor so it gets handwaved.
posted by zarq at 6:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

no mention/speculation on the suspect's religion or the color of his skin? Acceptable.

By the time we even moved on the thread it’s all back to Muslim bans. He’s not even capable of not being a monster for a bare few hours.
posted by corb at 6:10 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

By that, um, logic, wouldn't any industrial interest which sells to the Government be also excluded from advisory roles?
posted by Devonian at 6:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

No no, you're doing it wrong. Start with the terrible policy outcome, and come up with the supporting logic for cover. Like a business.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

"Can we maybe keep the NYC thing out of this thread entirely until we know what the hell it was, and whether it has any relevance here?"

Is it okay to have an "I'm safe" check-in thread on MetaTalk? Because the first thing I thought of when I heard the news was the eleventybillion MeFites who live in or near NYC.
posted by Jacqueline at 6:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Manafort’s Strategy: A Pardon
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

lmao is Tim Kaine the Joe Lieberman of the current age or something
posted by Apocryphon at 6:27 PM on October 31, 2017

Is it okay to have an "I'm safe" check-in thread on MetaTalk?

It looks like if I am reading the article correctly it says eight people killed, out of ~8 million? I don't mean to be callous but I don't think that is necessary.
posted by jessamyn at 6:27 PM on October 31, 2017 [30 favorites]

Has anyone else read Carter Page's biography? He was in the top 10% of his class at the US Naval Academy, was an intelligence officer. He's got two Masters and PhD from non-bullshit programs. There's nothing to suggest that he should be a moron. I get that he's been pro-Putin for years, but I almost wonder if he's a double agent. Because otherwise he's the dumbest dumbass that ever dumbassed.

There's a non-zero percent chance he was being programmed for some sort of - thing, but by the looks of it that may have not worked out as planned. Like he got a kernel panic and his handlers were like "it's borked, eject", and sent him to be low-level Gazprom guy instead. But he just kept wandering back to the place with all the action. And now here we are on Chris Matthews, foaming at the mouth.

Oh, like that's not 2017 enough. C'mon. You know that's just as likely, if not more likely as anything.
posted by petebest at 6:32 PM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

Don Jr. gets into the spirit of trick-or-treating

Scum.
posted by jgirl at 6:35 PM on October 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

There's a non-zero percent chance he was being programmed for some sort of - thing, but by the looks of it that may have not worked out as planned.

Carter Page as a failed MK-Ultra project is the best explanation yet.
posted by Rust Moranis at 6:39 PM on October 31, 2017 [36 favorites]

It looks like if I am reading the article correctly it says eight people killed, out of ~8 million? I don't mean to be callous but I don't think that is necessary.

Oh wow.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:43 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Manafort’s Strategy: A Pardon

That doesn't make any sense. So he gets pardoned. That means he goes to prison for decades on the state charges.

And how friendly do you think a New York jury is going to be to this asshole?
posted by leotrotsky at 6:44 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Don Jr. gets into the spirit of trick-or-treating

For 2017 you're in the clear unless you give more than $14,000 in candy per kid ($28,000 if you're married).
posted by ryanrs at 6:49 PM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

Don Jr. fixed: I’m going to take half of Chloe’s candy tonight & give it to some kid who sat at home. My dad made sure I NEVER had to go out...
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:51 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

I am fucking crying with laughter over that tweet about the average number of arms and how math works. Jr. is so preposterously out of his depth as a parent, a business person, a human being.
posted by xyzzy at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

Also, I tried googling around to see if Kaine had any explanation for his confirmation vote, but no dice so far.
posted by xyzzy at 6:53 PM on October 31, 2017

And too vs to.

And that is a lame 30 year old stand up joke.
posted by ian1977 at 6:54 PM on October 31, 2017

WaPo, For ‘low level volunteer,’ Papadopoulos sought high profile as Trump adviser

President Trump on Tuesday belittled former foreign policy adviser George Papadopoulos, who pleaded guilty this week to lying to federal agents investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 election, tweeting that “few people knew the young, low level volunteer named George, who has already proven to be a liar.”

But interviews and documents show that Papadopoulos was in regular contact with the Trump campaign’s most senior officials and held himself out as a Trump surrogate as he traveled the world to meet with foreign officials and reporters.

Papadopoulos sat at the elbow of one of Trump’s top campaign advisers, then-Sen. Jeff Sessions, during a dinner for campaign advisers weeks before the Republican National Convention, according to an individual who attended the meeting.

He met in London in September 2016 with a mid-level representative of the British Foreign Office, where he said he had contacts at the senior level of the Russian government.

And he conferred at one point with the foreign minister of Greece at a meeting in New York.

They keep saying he was nothing because he had just "one meeting," but he continued to represent the campaign and repeatedly exchanged emails with the most senior leaders of the campaign, and nobody stopped him. They don't get to pin this on him. Their extreme vetting needs some work though:

If Trump or his team had undertaken even a cursory vetting of Papadopoulos, they would have found that much of his already-slim résumé was either exaggerated or false.

While he claimed to have served for several years as a fellow at the Hudson Institute, officials there said he had been an unpaid intern and a researcher under contract to several fellows who were writing a book.

Although he claimed to be “U.S. Representative at the 2012 Geneva International Model United Nations,” officials at that organization said they had no record of him.

Papadopoulos said he had delivered the “keynote address” at a leading American-Greek organization in 2008 — while a student at DePaul University. But records from the gathering indicate he merely participated in a youth panel with other participants. The keynote was delivered by 1988 Democratic presidential candidate Michael Dukakis.

Also included, he met with a mid-level Foreign Office official in London during the campaign and "made a comment indicating he had contacts at the senior level of the Russian government."
posted by zachlipton at 6:59 PM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

Manafort’s Strategy: A Pardon

Well, the very first thing his lawyer said when they left the courthouse was "All hail King Donald" or "Donald Trump was right" or some kind of bullshit.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:04 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

I'm mostly just baffled by that. As far as I can tell, the way that it works is either that kids ask me for candy and I give it to them because I'm a nice person, which is a gift, or kids ask me for candy and I give it to them because I'm afraid they'll egg my house if I don't, which is extortion. What lesson about capitalism does he think that little Chloe should be learning here?

Little Chloe is dressed as a cop. So the candy is Asset Forfeiture. Amusingly police often return all or some of the assets in exchange for not being sued for their inevitable misdeeds. That's a lot irony for a little kid. Might not be healthy.
posted by srboisvert at 7:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

Also, I tried googling around to see if Kaine had any explanation for his confirmation vote, but no dice so far.

Tim Kaine is a pretty unapologetic pro-life Catholic, as is Barrett. He played it down for the VP campaign, but he's had a long history of flirting with outright anti-choice policies as governor. Not that surprising he'd vote for an anti-choice judge when he thinks it'll cost him nothing. Just one of the many, many reasons he was a terrible VP pick.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

Don Jr. gets into the spirit of trick-or-treating

S'ok. Tommy Vietor made a festive jack(ass) o'lantern!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

[tweet not safe for lalex, or anybody really]

@realDonaldTrump: I have just ordered Homeland Security to step up our already Extreme Vetting Program. Being politically correct is fine, but not for this!
posted by zachlipton at 7:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Of course, nobody's produced any kind of actual "order," which could lead the skeptical to think his order carries the same force as Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy.
posted by zachlipton at 7:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Charging Kollar-Kotelly with “judicial activism,” Moore demanded her impeachment.

Fucking hypocritical ass. I'm going to go take a long walk.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 7:20 PM on October 31, 2017

Manafort and everyone higher up than say the mailroom guy's strategy will be to run appeals to any convictions up to the SCOTUS and like G. Gordon and Ollie North will lead lucrative lives after that.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Effective immediately, scientists who receive EPA funding cannot serve on the agency's three major advisory groups. Some Republican lawmakers have been pushing for similar changes to the agency's advisory boards for years.

"We want to ensure that there’s integrity in the process and that the scientists that are advising us are doing so without any type of appearance of conflict of interest," EPA head Scott Pruitt said at a press conference announcing the directive.

This is a great way to have zero non-industry funded researchers on your panel. Those advisors are largely doing the work as professional service as part of their academic career and the compensation is a far less than salary honorarium. The grants and the research those grants enable is the actual meat of their career and not a single real researcher will forgo that to be on a committee.

Curiously, the EPA Advisory panels also require advisors to have no financial conflicts of interest so that likely rules out industry funded researchers as well....

Leaving who exactly? Hobbyists? Lobbyists?
posted by srboisvert at 7:28 PM on October 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: I have just ordered Homeland Security to step up our already Extreme Vetting Program. Being politically correct is fine, but not for this!

The Fucking Extreme Vetting Program!
posted by srboisvert at 7:30 PM on October 31, 2017

like G. Gordon and Ollie North will lead lucrative lives after that.
Didn't G. Gordon Liddy go to prison before that?

Leaving who exactly? Hobbyists? Lobbyists?
Hobby Lobby
posted by thelonius at 7:30 PM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

Trump's eXtreme Vetting Program goes to 11!
posted by Justinian at 7:35 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Here's Al Franken having a go at the bros.

FRANKEN: How did Facebook, which prides itself on being able to process billions of data points and instantly transform them into personal connections for its users, somehow not make the connection that electoral ads paid for in rubles were coming from Russia? Those are two data points. American political ads and Russian money, rubles. How could you not connect those two dots?

STRETCH: Senator, you mentioned one aspect of the Russian threat, that was so visible in 2016, which was the question of account compromising, stealing content and disseminating them and that’s a threat our security team was intensely focused on and we think effectively addressed. I think, in hindsight, we should have had a broader lens. There were signals we missed. And we are now –

FRANKEN: OK. People are buying ads on your platform with rubles. They’re political ads. You put billions of data points together all the time. That’s what I hear that these platforms do. They’re the most sophisticated things invented by man. Ever. Google has all knowledge that man has ever developed. You can’t put together rubles with a political ad and go like, “Hmm, those two data points spell out something bad?”

STRETCH: Senator, it’s a signal we should have been alert to and in hindsight, it’s one we missed.

Rubles and political ads, and you geniuses couldn't join those TWO DOTS. I love you Al.
posted by adept256 at 7:38 PM on October 31, 2017 [120 favorites]

It's the perfect thing to read in his voice in your head.
posted by rhizome at 7:41 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Ahhh yes a non-techie who thinks Programming and all of that is just push a button and connect a dot and boom let's go home at noon and play video games.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:43 PM on October 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Ahhh yes a non-techie who thinks Programming and all of that is just push a button and connect a dot and boom let's go home at noon and play video games.

what a ridiculous comment
posted by thelonius at 7:44 PM on October 31, 2017 [92 favorites]

Dozens killed in Las Vegas by gunfire and is too soon to talk about gun violence and besides there's nothing we can do to stop gun violence. Eight dead by vehicle in New York MOAR XTREME VET NAO.

I hate Trump so much right now.

Condolences to everyone impacted by this attack but also to everyone who will be impacted by Trump's response.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:47 PM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

American Political Advertising + ANY Non-American Currency = ~~CHA-CHING~~ WRONG!!!
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:48 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I am a programmer. It really is just push a button and connect the dots. It's not wizardry, it's not rocket science. I also go home at noon and play video games. How about you?
posted by monospace at 7:49 PM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

Ahhh yes a non-techie who thinks Programming and all of that is just push a button..

I'm a techie. I think it's fair question to ask if Facebook are really going to try to play the "but how were we to know?" game. Isn't it their business to know?

Anyway, getting back to Trump -- I really hope to see some very high profile public mockery of his "extreme vetting" program. Every time he promises "extreme vetting" I want to hear "you mean like the careful checking you did before appointing Russian intelligence assets to be your campaign manager and National Security Advisor?"
posted by Nerd of the North at 7:49 PM on October 31, 2017 [67 favorites]

Orrrrrrrr a non-techie who thinks that
-- an organization that consistently does a ton of data analysis
--- up to and including analyzing their users' moods
--- and then messing with what they show those users in order to see if they can change those moods
-- might be capable of putting together "country origin of ad payment" and "country where ad shown" as indicative.

I'm as ready to mock a series of tubes dopeyness as any other nerd, but "hey data jeanyuses, why exactly did you not notice this super obvious data?" isn't tech ignorance at all.
posted by phearlez at 7:50 PM on October 31, 2017 [70 favorites]

Hey have you ever tried to filter a spreadsheet for two dfferent things? It's . . . not intuitive!

Fortunately Microsoft Excel® is pre-loaded with the most comprehensive help functionality available!*

*Excel Help articles are literally the least helpful things ever created. A handful of dirt would be more useful every time. It has always been the standard for irrelevant pointless documentation, since the days when an unshowered, maniacally cackling Bill Gates forcefully injected it into modern business' brainstem. What? I am not bitter. No grudge. No grudge. You're the grudge.
posted by petebest at 7:54 PM on October 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

I have just ordered Homeland Security to step up our already Extreme Vetting Program.

Wait, if Trump waited for an actual terror attack before "stepping up" his EVP... doesn't that mean, by his own admission, he was essentially *not* doing all he could to stop terror attacks?

I don't mean to say I favor his strategy. I just don't understand why his tweet is supposed to inspire confidence in his leadership.
posted by Rykey at 7:54 PM on October 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

And too vs to.

It's an infamnia.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:55 PM on October 31, 2017

If it's any kind of palate cleanser after John Kelly's "Robert E. Lee was an honorable guy!" bullshit: the very first kid trick-or-treating at my door tonight showed up in a Civil War uniform. A UNION uniform.

He got an extra handful of candy for being on the right side of history.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [86 favorites]

From what I'm reading, at least six of the eight fatalities in New York were citizens of countries other than the US: five from Argentina and one from Belgium. New York is a global city. It's a city that draws people from everywhere. Attacking migration with bullshit like "extreme vetting" is at least as much an attack on New York as this atrocity was.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:58 PM on October 31, 2017 [70 favorites]

I actually don't know the answer to this - if those same Russian actors had, like, purchased normal television ad time, would the ... TV people who sold it to them get in trouble? Are normal TV people expected to look at the ads they're running to make sure that the ads don't break the law?

You know, when I put it like that, it seems obvious, but I really don't know.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:02 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Programming and all of that is just push a button and connect a dot and boom let's go home at noon and play video games.

Hi, coupla decades in the trade, I am pretty sure that the modern A. I. / "Deep Learning" revival of neural networks is essentially the global deployment of Reason 2.0 from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency:

Well, Gordon's great insight was to design a program which allowed you to specify in advance what decision you wished it to reach, and only then to give it all the facts. The program's task, which it was able to accomplish with consummate ease, was simply to construct a plausible series of logical-sounding steps to connect the premises with the conclusion.

posted by Rat Spatula at 8:04 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Obviously, if Facebook et al were unable to make the connection, possibly because the business model didn’t ask them to, then the solution is to fix Facebook’s model, and everyone else’s (so that the playing field remains level), with enhanced federal regulations.
posted by notyou at 8:08 PM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

it's weird how we demand the GOP have experts in their field ask questions about expert things but when Dems put a former comic up for asking questions, FB must be lying about how easy it must be to connect the dots.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:13 PM on October 31, 2017

Oh sure, they just weren't checking the right signals for when to reject ad money.

Let's be real here, if Facebook's algorithm even briefly considered not taking someone's money, pagers would go off and the ops teams would spring into action.
posted by ryanrs at 8:13 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

The thread has moved on a bit, but about climate change/global warming: "Climate Change" as a term predates "Global Warming" as a term by a number of years. Indeed, the 1975 paper by Wallace Broecker that coined the later term was entitled: "Climatic Change: Are We on the Brink of a Pronounced Global Warming". Global Warming became the dominant term in the media after being used in congressional hearings in the late 80s.

There's a decent history by NASA here.
posted by bonehead at 8:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Wait. Why would the Russians pay for the ads in rubles? Wouldn't they just use laundered dollars?
posted by ArgentCorvid at 8:16 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I don't know anything about anything, but it seems likely to me that the Russians have the capacity to pay Facebook in something other than rubles.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:16 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Are normal TV people expected to look at the ads they're running to make sure that the ads don't break the law?

Normal tv people are required to identify officers from every group responsible for paying for a political ad and then post that information to the FCC.
posted by xyzzy at 8:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [58 favorites]

I too am a programmer (who plays video games). The implemention (for any major website I've helped build, and that's more than one) would not have been hard.

FB didn't connect the dots because programmers are a finite resource and no one said "hey, we should implement a rule that looks for weirdness in political ad buys."

There's no money to be made in it and no perceived strategic value, and it's no one's pet project, so it doesn't happen.
posted by zippy at 8:17 PM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, from what I've seen, the comic from Minnesota is pretty good about doing his homework prior to attending hearings and knowing what he's talking about.
posted by ryanrs at 8:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [85 favorites]

Don Jr. gets into the spirit of trick-or-treating Actual tweet: "I’m going to take half of Chloe’s candy tonight & give it to some kid who sat at home. It’s never to early to teach her about socialism."

Don Jr has never had to work a day in his life, the fucking half-wit.

Bill Kristol: Why not give half a thought to the less fortunate? It’s never too late for adults to learn not to be smug about being born on third base.

And late to the party but John Kelly can get fucked sideways with this compromise shit. Yes, if only the United States had spent more time compromising on whether black people were human beings, surely that's what was needed.
posted by supercrayon at 8:19 PM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

Why would the Russians pay for the ads in rubles? Wouldn't they just use laundered dollars?

Or just pay for it in Pence?
posted by uosuaq at 8:20 PM on October 31, 2017 [37 favorites]

> it's weird how we demand the GOP have experts in their field ask questions about expert things

Who is this "we" you speak of? Who actually expects anyone in Congress to be experts on the issues? That's why they have staffers.

> but when Dems put a former comic up for asking questions, FB must be lying about how easy it must be to connect the dots.

Oh, right, Al Franken was on Saturday Night Live, therefore doesn't know shit about shit. I suppose they just gave out Harvard degrees with cum laude honors back then.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [54 favorites]

Maybe instead of weird repeated drive-by attacks on Sen. Franken (who does his homework and, in general, I've noticed that he makes it a point to be knowledgeable about what he's talking about, and I'm keeping that phrase here to make a point, because I swear I wrote it verbatim before ryanrs did), you could explain why Sen. Franken, among others, is wrong and what Facebook should or should be expected to do? That would be a more useful way to have a discussion.

At a minimum, public disclosure of online political ads, which is already required for broadcast, doesn't seem to me like it should be a problem at all, and it's disturbing how much tech companies are resisting it.
posted by zachlipton at 8:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [72 favorites]

A reliable implementation of "Is this a political ad from a foreign source?" would be quite hard to set up. Post hoc rules which would capture the specific Russian campaigns from last year would be fairly easy to set up.
posted by Coventry at 8:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Who is this "we" you speak of? Who actually expects anyone in Congress to be experts on the issues? That's why they have staffers.

Have you seen the comments when the House Science Cmt tweets something? People want experts.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:24 PM on October 31, 2017

but when Dems put a former comic up for asking questions

Spoken like a former toddler.
posted by uosuaq at 8:24 PM on October 31, 2017 [41 favorites]

At a minimum, public disclosure of online political ads, which is already required for broadcast, doesn't seem to me like it should be a problem at all, and it's disturbing how much tech companies are resisting it.

Why, it's almost as though they don't want to have to think about where all the money comes from!
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:25 PM on October 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

> Have you seen the comments when the House Science Cmt tweets something? People want experts.

There's a big difference between wanting experts and wanting people who aren't hostile to the very idea of science.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:26 PM on October 31, 2017 [33 favorites]

Have you seen the comments when the House Science Cmt tweets something? People want experts.

There's a big difference between wanting experts and wanting people who aren't hostile to the very idea of science.

Hell, I don't even expect people making sci-fi movies to be experts, but if JJ Abrams is gonna make Star Trek I want him to have at least a middle school level understanding of space.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:29 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

*sigh* Just about one year ago today: http://www.metafilter.com/163305/-The-world-turned-upside-down-Finally-its-US-election-week
posted by loquacious at 8:29 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

There's a big difference between wanting experts and wanting people who aren't hostile to the very idea of science.

And now we can get down to the discussion! I see Franken's comments as hostile to those that code this shit and then get shit when the shit hits the fan when they don't get the answers they want. Like I said, ain't no easy button to connect the dots.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:30 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

tv people are required to identify officers from every group responsible for paying for a political ad and then post that information to the FCC.

FCC or FEC? Either way it would be reasonable to expect Facebook to be making those reports too. Really reasonable, actually. But if it's the FEC I feel like Facebook would just swamp them.

Also fake news stories wouldn't fall under that category, I assume. Legally an Infowars article is in the same category as normal journalism. At least some of the Russian measures on FB consisted of promoting stories like "Hillary has scoliosis", and there isn't any legal mechanism for that AFAIK.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:30 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Like, if friendly Russians want to support Infowars, there's nothing illegal about that.
posted by Rainbo Vagrant at 8:31 PM on October 31, 2017

Facebook didn't try to connect the dots though. They said there were no dots at all. Then they said ok, there were a few dots. Then they said, ok, there were more than a few dots. Then, oh, acutally there were 126 million dots, but no one looked at them, and it wasn't our job to connect them.

Facebook is not a technology company, they're a media conglomerate that denies any and all responsibilities of being a media conglomerate.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:33 PM on October 31, 2017 [128 favorites]

"A reliable implementation of 'Is this a political ad from a foreign source?' would be quite hard to set up."
Then no political ads on facebook. Problem solved, no spreadsheets or dot connection required.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:33 PM on October 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

I see Franken's comments as hostile to those that code this shit

Can you blame him? When their code is used to make trump our president?

Oh, and Happy birthday.
posted by valkane at 8:35 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Simple solution: Ban all ads on Facebook.
posted by Sphinx at 8:35 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Simple solution: Ban all ads on Facebook.

Whoa now, let's not get crazy and go making Facebook functional and pleasant.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:36 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

When their code is used to make trump our president?

Please. PLEASE. The culture and people that got Trump elected were around long before there was a Facebook.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Facebook is not a technology company, they're a media conglomerate that denies any and all responsibilities of being a media conglomerate.

Ding! Ding Ding!
posted by mosk at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

In my experience, which only extends to filing campaign reports for local campaigns, the payer of the funds for any political advertising (billboards, mailings, TV ads) has to report on it in great detail. And, again, in my local experience, the billboard company, e.g. wants all of that information as well. Political advertising, whether done by the campaign or an independent expenditure, is held to standards that no other kind of advertising is. If fb or internet advertising were held to a remotely similar standard, they would have had to have documentation of where this money was coming from. If TV stations and billboard companies can manage it, I certainly hope that fb's programmers have the chops to figure that out. It shouldn't even be the programmers -- it's the marketing and legal staff who are responsible. You'd think that they especially wouldn't want to be doing something as blatantly illegal as taking foreign money to influence a political campaign.
posted by gingerbeer at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [38 favorites]

Facebook has 20,000 employees and $27B in revenue, so maybe don't come at this from the angle of "oh it's just too hard".
posted by ryanrs at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [83 favorites]

> And now we can get down to the discussion! I see Franken's comments as hostile to those that code this shit and then get shit when the shit hits the fan when they don't get the answers they want. Like I said, ain't no easy button to connect the dots.

I'm a software developer too, but the fact that users sometimes have unrealistic expectations for people who they pay six-figure salaries to solve problems for them is way, way down on my list of things I'm worried about right now.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

I'm... not sure how you guys think Facebook would pay for everything without any ads at all...
posted by Justinian at 8:38 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Yeah SOMEHOW broadcasters are able to tell when something is a political ad, and then they have to abide by the laws about collecting and disclosing information about who is paying for that ad. The idea that there's absolutely NO WAY FB could do the same is ridiculous. Start fining them for not doing it and they'll find a way REAL quick.
posted by threeturtles at 8:39 PM on October 31, 2017 [46 favorites]

> I'm... not sure how you guys think Facebook would pay for everything without any ads at all...

So you're starting from the position that Facebook ought to exist at all? Huh.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:39 PM on October 31, 2017 [23 favorites]

I'm not sure exactly what Franken was hoping for from FB. Some ML capabilities we should expect FB to have:

1. Given a set of relevant categories, figure out a way to knead the data and squint at it the right way to figure out the category a case belongs in.
2. Given an undifferentiated blob of data, figure out a system of categories or clusters that the data fits into as it is (without all the kneading and the squinting).

Technique 1 won't automatically know "hey this looks like foreign people paying you for U.S. political ads". It would have to be trained explicitly to look for that. (And maybe, long after the fact when, this *was* done to determine the scope of the problem...)

Technique 2 might be able to separate foreign ad buying, if there was enough of it and it was distinctive enough from the rest of activity on FB, but then a person would have to look at that cluster and notice it was weird and come up with some sort of plan for dealing with it.

Maybe there are other techniques that will magically make foreign ad buys pop out without someone explicitly looking for it, but nothing's coming to mind. That's not to say that FB, being the media and advertising power that it was and is, shouldn't have had some explicit provision for this stuff.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:39 PM on October 31, 2017

What utter nonsense. Of course Facebook and Twitter knew, from the get-go, who paid for those ads. No buttons required. They just chose to pocket the money and not ask questions. This is not a tech problem, it's an ethics problem.
posted by monospace at 8:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [70 favorites]

I'm... not sure how you guys think Facebook would pay for everything without any ads at all...

Sell our data.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'm... not sure how you guys think Facebook would pay for everything without any ads at all...

Everyone pays five bucks
posted by orange ball at 8:40 PM on October 31, 2017 [111 favorites]

> This is not a tech problem, it's an ethics problem.

Precisely, which is why Facebook's senior suit was more than happy to make it look like a failure to connect the dots than what it really was -- taking whatever money comes and doing whatever the paying customer wants as long as the checks are clearing.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:41 PM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

I'm... not sure how you guys think Facebook would pay for everything without any ads at all...

Forcibly convert it to a public utility and pay for it with wealth confiscated from plutocrats?
posted by Rust Moranis at 8:43 PM on October 31, 2017 [50 favorites]

Why didn't Zuck free up the lawyer to say yes to any obvious "yes is the only answer" question like, "will facebook promise not to again knowingly flout election law?" All the lawyer had to do was say "of course, yes." Instead the lawyer gargled like an expensively coiffed turkey staring at a raincloud. What even WAS that? You can't say you won't take foreign currency in payment for an ad trying to influence the outcome of an American election? Really? Really? It was failure to dot connect on the level of the original failure to dot connect that is probably going to get us all nuked. Horrific unforced error in real time in front of everybody's face on C-Span.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:43 PM on October 31, 2017 [32 favorites]

FB didn't connect the dots because programmers are a finite resource and no one said "hey, we should implement a rule that looks for weirdness in political ad buys."

FB has no problem rejecting ads that show too much female breast - this book cover got rejected for being too graphic. (Warning: spider.) So it's not like they take any ads at all and show them to any target audience - they consider what laws might apply, and err on the side of prudery when it comes to maybe-erotic content.

Political ads are governed by laws, too; it wouldn't be at all unreasonable for them to have a basic filter that says, "who's paying for this? And who's supposed to see it? Do those match? If not, why not?" along with the ones that say, "is this too sexually graphic" and "does it contain obscenities" and "have they paid extra for bonus inflicting onto more people's feeds" and "is it a one-time up front payment or a monthly recurring charge" and so on.

If it were a handful of ads we were talking about - ok, so some US political ads get paid for in rubles; shrug. When there are hundreds of ads being seen by MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, erm... yeah, they should get called out for not bothering to notice who is reaching those millions of people.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 8:44 PM on October 31, 2017 [76 favorites]

I mean, FFS, Facebook has been suspending users on the mere suspicion that they might not be using their real names, and you're trying to tell us that when it comes to buying ads, they just don't have the knowledge, or the resources, to figure out who's who and what's what?
posted by monospace at 8:45 PM on October 31, 2017 [95 favorites]

Facebook knows way too much about every user of their service for this to be a surprise to them.

Somewhere, someone inside facebook is the equivalent of a Popadopolous, and needs to start talking to Mueller.
posted by yesster at 8:48 PM on October 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

Personal theory:

Facebook Ads Guy in America: Sure, we can take on political ads. We can take on ads about anything! It's free speech, right? Just put them all through the same payment structure. Anyone trying to push propaganda on our site is bound to be clever enough not to pay for it in rubles or something stupid like that. Who would be that obvious?

Online Propaganda Guy in Russia: Oh holy shit, this thing totally accepts rubles! How stupid are they?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:48 PM on October 31, 2017 [36 favorites]

"however will facebook go on?"
"Forcibly convert it to a public utility and pay for it with wealth confiscated from plutocrats?"
Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooo, they can still sell the wrinkle cream and personalized trucknuts and one weird trick bullshit, they just can't do issue ads! It's not like Isis and Putin are all that keeps us from a bleak future of no facebook.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:48 PM on October 31, 2017

The culture and people that got Trump elected were around long before there was a Facebook.

So then why are we even talking about facebook? They must be totally innocent, and no smart guys who once wrote comedy should have a say. It’s kinda like saying smart guys who once wrote computer code shouldn’t talk about politics.
posted by valkane at 8:50 PM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

I support nationalizing facebook
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:50 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

Facebook doesn't need to develop some novel machine learning approach to classifying political ads, they just need to hire a staff like every other media company. They constantly resist human based solutions in favor of rube goldberg machines that allow them to reduce staff overhead.
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:51 PM on October 31, 2017 [70 favorites]

High school newspapers vet political ads according to federal election law. Facebook can certainly manage.

If you can't vet your ads and ensure they comply with applicable laws, you don't run ads. It's that simple.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [129 favorites]

And if Facebook is one of the dominoes that falls from all of this, the world will be a better place.
posted by yesster at 8:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [30 favorites]

A little over a year ago, less than three months before the election, Facebook fired the human editors of its trending news module and replaced them with an algorithm.

In my opinion at the time, they did this precisely because the human editors were filtering out the planted pro-Trump lies and executives wanted those to get through -- and that's exactly what happened.

The firing took place without warning, and a security guard was present at the meeting.

Facebook wanted Trump, and did what they had to do to get him into the White House.
posted by jamjam at 8:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [89 favorites]

a bleak future of no facebook.
The Best of All Futures.
At least it will absolutely prevent President Zuckerberg.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Facebook knows way too much about every user of their service for this to be a surprise to them.

And yet their ad algorithm can't surface ads for things I'm interested in, nor news from my friends that I care about seeing.

As an offsite backup for my photos, FB is a reasonable tool. As a news or information source, it fails to whip the llama's ass.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 8:53 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Advice for America:

Delete Facebook
Hit the gym
Lawyer up
posted by MrVisible at 8:53 PM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

I fully support myspacing facebook.
posted by valkane at 8:56 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

They constantly resist human based solutions in favor of rube goldberg machines that allow them to reduce staff overhead.

Yeah, algorithms are not the answer to everything. Over-reliance on automation and computer logic without any meaningful human oversight resulted in a system where I could target ads on Facebook based on white supremacy keywords and pay for Killary Has Alien Death Virus ads in rubles. That's a sick, cold, broken system.
posted by xyzzy at 8:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [11 favorites]

It is harder to quit Facebook than most drugs. Modern society will not fucking stand for it. I miss tons of conversations with friends because I refuse to install messenger on my phone, and I still can’t leave the site entirely because both my kids have activities coordinated through there. Any solution that entwines it more deeply into the fabric of society is a giant nope for me. I don’t care if Zuck’s running it or the government. Hell, I may like the idea less if the government’s running it.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:59 PM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

I mean, it's not easy. I'll give you that. Defining "political" is complicated, especially when some what Russia was doing was using Facebook to spread racial and religious division that doesn't fit neatly into the category of political messaging like a candidate ad. Not all of that fits into neat boxes like TV and radio ads, where there are disclosure requirements. There's no magic button that solves all foreign disinfo ops and fake news at once, and there are ways to address these problems that I'm not comfortable with from a free speech perspective, though far smarter people than I have written at length on these problems. In particular, the ads (at least based on the data the sites have released so far) appear to have been pretty darn small buys, and the much broader problem of organicly shared posts and pages is harder to address. But online advertising disclosures for political ads would be a minimal start, and it would provide journalists and researchers with the data to learn more about these problems. Justin Hendrix's call for radical transparency from Facebook around everything that happened here is nice.

But I think the point of Sen. Franken's question, and you're being absurdly hostile about pulling one question out of an hours-long hearing here, is that Facebook spent a year and a half insisting there was no problem, when there were, in hindsight, really blatantly obvious signs that there was one. Like people buying US political ads in rubles.

The problem isn't that Facebook (and Google and Twitter) didn't magically solve all these problems, but that they're completely unwilling to engage in any kind of public discussion about how to address the public problems that their platforms have caused. Facebook is a media company. It makes business and editorial decisions like any other media company. But while media companies are called upon to explain those decisions and are discussed and criticized by media critics, Facebook constantly holds itself to be immune to any such criticism.

In my opinion at the time, they did this precisely because the human editors were filtering out the planted pro-Trump lies and executives wanted those to get through -- and that's exactly what happened....Facebook wanted Trump, and did what they had to do to get him into the White House.

I read that episode quite differently. The right started a massive nationwide freakout that Facebook was being partisan in its trending news module. Facebook recognized this as a massive threat to its business, and the last thing it wanted was Congress getting involved, or worse, conservatives fleeing the site out of anger. So they quickly jumped to "no no, we're neutral, see, it will all just be an algorithm, no west-coast biased elites here" (handwaving over the fact that an algorithm is never neutral, but always a blame-deflection device). That experience of being on the wrong end of a Breitbart hatestorm was terrifying to the company, and led them to avoid doing anything that could be attacked as partisan, even if that meant doing nothing about fake news and foreign disinformation campaigns.
posted by zachlipton at 9:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [100 favorites]

> I don’t care if Zuck’s running it or the government.

Ha, you think there's an "or" in there - just wait till 2020 when President-elect Zuckerberg wipes his ass with the Emoluments clause.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Advice for America:

Delete Facebook
Hit the gym
Lawyer up

DTMFA
posted by The otter lady at 9:01 PM on October 31, 2017 [42 favorites]

Why does there have to be ONE Facebook? A bunch of smaller similar services with some mandated limited interconnectivity... THAT's what we desperately need. Competition. It's what today's Post-Capitalistic society hates most.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Manafort has 3 passports, traveled to China with phone registered under fake name (Katelyn Polantz, CNN)

A new court filing Tuesday showed exactly what Manafort and Gates told banks and investigators about their net worths and travel histories over the past few years.

Among the highlights:

* Manafort currently has three US passports, each under a different number. He has submitted 10 passport applications in roughly as many years, prosecutors said.

* This year, Manafort traveled to Mexico, China and Ecuador with a phone and email account registered under a fake name. (The name was not disclosed in the filings.)

* Over the past year, Manafort traveled to Dubai, Cancun, Panama City, Havana, Shanghai, Madrid, Tokyo and Grand Cayman Island.

* Both Manafort and Gates were frequent travelers to Cyprus. "Extensive travel of this nature further evidences a risk of flight," the prosecutor's filing said.

Nothing suspicious about having three different passports and frequently travelling to a hub of Russian money laundering...
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:14 PM on October 31, 2017 [92 favorites]

It's not a technical problem; it's a business one. It's about having enough of a clue of who your customers are and what they're paying you money to do to notice some pretty obvious signs of a problem.

Yeah, I'm not getting why this seems like such a difficult problem to solve. Nor why it wouldn't have been in FB best interests to solve on day one of selling advertising. If you are selling ads, you want to know who's buying them so...you can sell them more ads. This isn't exotic ML or AI or something, it's basic MBA business analytics. I would have just assumed that, like with most large companies, there were some finance interns up to their eyebrows in Excel pivot tables analyzing the first sales/repeat sales dumped out of the FB ad database to send over to the marketing department for follow-on categorization and targeting, I mean, c'mon, right?
posted by skye.dancer at 9:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

should we ever get around to throwing a Butlerian Jihad I'm going to lobby to get "thou shalt not make any machine in the likeness of a human social network" put into the list of new commandments.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:20 PM on October 31, 2017 [30 favorites]

facebook can tell us everything there is to know about our friends and neighbors, but can they see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Multiple passports isn't that unusual if you frequently need to travel while your passport is out for visa applications. A third is a bit much though, along with the cell phone under an alias.

The obvious question is why the guy with millions of dollars, three passports, extensive foreign travel, and ties to the kind of people who can send a private jet to pick him up gets to go home, while low-level drug offenders are deemed "flight risks" and left in jail to await trial.
posted by zachlipton at 9:22 PM on October 31, 2017 [62 favorites]

Manafort traveled to Mexico, China and Ecuador with a phone and email account registered under a fake name

Are we talking, like, "really deliberate false identity" fake name here, or do they mean "on Google Voice my full name is Nicebook Rack" fake name? Because I've put "my.email@address.here" as my name in email accounts for years.
posted by nicebookrack at 9:22 PM on October 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I propose that Facebook Doesn't Work; it's bloated and inefficient. We need to install our own leaders and cut the budget. Run business like a government.

And if those "leaders" are intentionally selected for idiocy and conflict of interest, and leave the place in flames, boo hoo. That'll only prove the original thesis.
posted by ctmf at 9:23 PM on October 31, 2017 [15 favorites]

2 jiggers Rumchata + 1 jigger Fireball = Cinnamon Toast Crunch. I know the kids love it, but I can’t see why.
posted by valkane at 9:26 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Have you seen the comments when the House Science Cmt tweets something? People want experts.

Or people don't want climate-change denialists tweeting bullshit. Which is hardly the same thing; if the (Republican) leadership of the House Science Committee were actually conversant with the accepted science on anthropogenic climate change, and if they didn't do things like retweet batshit articles from fucking Breitbart and the WSJ about nonsense like "low temperatures mean global warming is a hoax" and "Obama's evil fossil-fuel regulations are being repealed, hallelujah!" then they wouldn't be getting the pushback. Your comment is either stupid or disingenuous.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:34 PM on October 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

Manafort has 3 passports, traveled to China with phone registered under fake name

* Gates "frequently changed banks and opened and closed bank accounts," prosecutors said. In all, Gates opened 55 accounts with 13 financial institutions, the prosecutors' court filing said. Some of his bank accounts were in England and Cyprus, where he held more than $10 million from 2010 to 2013.
posted by Room 641-A at 9:36 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

"... a former comic..."

Al Franken graduated cum laude from Harvard (political science). Something tells me you don't get policy work and the absolutely vital need to rely on reported technical expertise.

You're making the very judgement error you're accusing him of. You dish out criticism based on complete ignorance of his qualifications or the workings of his profession.
posted by Tarumba at 9:42 PM on October 31, 2017 [119 favorites]

I would be hard pressed to find another senator who prepares as well and takes the job as seriously as the former comedian, though Amy Klobuchar might be up there.
POSSIBLY MINNESOTIST BIASED
posted by localhuman at 9:46 PM on October 31, 2017 [39 favorites]

National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: John Kelly was right: The Civil War was all about compromise

This ethically neutral view of the world is lots of fun. Here are some other lacks of ability to compromise:

The French Revolution began because there was a lack of ability to compromise about whether Louis XVI’s head should stay attached to his body. (Louis XVI felt very strongly one way, but this was ultimately shortsighted.)

Captain Ahab’s position was that he wanted to chase Moby Dick and kill him with a harpoon, but there was a lack of ability to compromise on the whale’s part.

Those students at Kent State wanted both to protest and to remain alive, but they showed a remarkable lack of ability to compromise.

posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:56 PM on October 31, 2017 [45 favorites]

For better or worse, I'm going to briefly repeat myself about how I think people should stop using Facebook and go back to doing the legwork (and maybe emotional labor) of managing their own social dialog, contacts and communications, but even at this point I doubt it's going to do much good.

It's like asking people not to use credit cards or even a phone. And I feel that this can be said about a largely unregulated private media corporation is deeply problematic in itself.

The potential for this kind of micro-targeted mass manipulation is on the list of reasons why mass market social media is an inherently dystopian idea from the get go, and it's not just about personal privacy, security or personal consent. It's not even just about advertising or mining marketing/profiling data.

If you'll all allow me to be stern and maybe quite cross for a moment - I'm frustrated and weary of hearing about how not using Facebook is not an option, for work, for family or whatever. There are many, many other options. They just take more work, and they aren't as persistent or pervasive.

Also, what the hell are we supposed to do if Zuck tries to run for president? How is that ever going to be a good idea?

We're talking about a demonstratively unscrupulous company that easily has more dirt and details on everyone on the entire planet than, say, most of the traditional Nato/Warsaw intelligence blocs put together.

If I take a big step back and approach all of this like a naive but logical alien from outside the cultural context - this shit makes the telescreens in 1984, the glass walls in We and the bumblepuppy in Brave New World look quaint and nonthreatening.

And it all kind of makes me want to scream a little.

Actually, it makes me want to grow a crazy Richard Stallman Unix-grade wizard beard and scream "You fools! You damn fools!" from the top of some windblasted wall somewhere while brandishing a staff and tearing out that beard in anguish while lighting fills the sky behind me.

But then I wouldn't be invited to any parties at all any more and that's hard enough to pull off without a Facebook account these days.

Fuck Facebook. Fuck being the product being sold. Fuck 2017 and all the shitty scheming selfish bastards in it.
posted by loquacious at 10:04 PM on October 31, 2017 [143 favorites]

I propose that Facebook Doesn't Work; it's bloated and inefficient. We need to install our own leaders and cut the budget.

Scenario I've been pondering: suppose during some dark night of the soul, Zuckerberg decides to convince enough executives at Facebook that their site is a historic a mistake and, without checking with anyone else, shut the whole site down. No newsfeeds, no messenger, no app, no site. The world wakes up to a 404 Facebook. How many social connections are wiped out, just like that? I definitely have people that FB is my only connection to - no email, no phone number, no mailing address - FB is the only way I have of reaching them at the moment. This description fits a couple hundred of the folks on my list, I would estimate. The thought of a lone private corporation having that much of grip on the social bonds of my world makes me a little queasy if I think too hard about it. And that's not even getting into their apparent policy of accepting any sort of currency to run any sort of bullshit ads, and damn the consequences.

Maybe this is why Blade Runner 2049 flopped. Maybe we're all set for cyberpunk dystopia at the moment in real life, thank you.
posted by EatTheWeek at 10:11 PM on October 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Random question, would Mueller's remit cover Melania's initial illegal work without a visa? And what is the statute of limitations on that?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:15 PM on October 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

Al Franken's not qualified because he went to precious Harvard or even because he graduated a lowly cum laude. he is a little closer to qualified because he was a political science major, that is infinitely more relevant than his Ivy League badge. but that is not the main reason either. He is qualified because he is a very smart and well-informed man and demonstrates it when he speaks in committee, and because of everything he learned and did for his career and in his life after he was a college kid, and particularly everything he's done for the last decade as a politician and the decade right before that when he was preparing. "Harvard" is not a rejoinder; his whole life is.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:18 PM on October 31, 2017 [85 favorites]

He is also very good at drawing maps of the USA.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:24 PM on October 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

NYT: Trump Plans for Nuclear Arsenal Require $1.2 Trillion, Congressional Review States

$1.2 trillion dollars. To ensure we can blow up the world a gazillion times over. The article goes on to explain that it could be more, and the Trump is apparently confused why he has to abide by arms-reduction treaties:

Mr. Trump has publicly declared that he wants the American nuclear arsenal to be “top of the pack,” and has been widely reported as asking his aides why the United States needs to limit the number of deployed warheads to 1,550, as set by the 2010 New START treaty with Russia. But he has said nothing about breaking out of the treaty, and the estimate issued Tuesday by the budget office is based largely on plans that were left over from President Barack Obama’s time in office.

Those plans may grow more ambitious, senior administration officials say, as the White House seeks new ways to counter North Korea, push back against Iran and deal with significant nuclear modernization in both Russia and China. The authors of the Nuclear Posture Review were told they could consider the building of new types of nuclear weapons, even some now prohibited by treaty.

Any changes could drive up the estimated cost of rebuilding the nation’s arsenal, and the figures released Tuesday did not account for inflation, which independent experts say would drive the total figure to more than $1.6 trillion.

On a related note, the Federation of American Scientists obtained the latest figures from the Department of Defense on the cost of war. We've spent more than $1.46 trillion on just the direct costs of war since 9/11. This does not include indirect costs, such as veterans’ benefits, or any classified spending outside of DoD.

The Atlantic, Vann R. Newkirk II, Puerto Rico's Dire Health-Care Crisis:

The storm’s threat to patients with chronic illness could alone constitute a public-health emergency. But they aren’t the only ones at risk. State epidemiologists recently announced spiking rates of leptospirosis, a fever disease spread by water contaminated with animal waste. While leptospirosis is rare on the mainland, it is a relatively common disease in tropical regions like Puerto Rico. While the island usually only sees 60 cases a year, according to CNN, there have been over 70 confirmed cases so far this month, at least two of them fatal. The deaths are a clear sign of the disarray of the health-care system, as leptospirosis is usually mild and manageable with early detection and care.

Also, I'm finishing up an FPP for tomorrow morning on the start of open enrollment on HealthCare.gov. I threw it into a Google Doc if anyone here has any suggestions for anything missing or you want to nitpick my grammar (please!). If there's literally anything better you could be doing with your life tonight, please go do that instead.
posted by zachlipton at 10:38 PM on October 31, 2017 [55 favorites]

Random question, would Mueller's remit cover Melania's initial illegal work without a visa? And what is the statute of limitations on that?

I don't know, but out here in the street I'd see this as some Ken Starr-caliber threadpulling.
posted by rhizome at 10:41 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

would Mueller's remit cover Melania's initial illegal work without a visa? And what is the statute of limitations on that?

As someone from an immigrant family, I would really, really like us not to go down the “20 years ago, before you became a citizen, was your work permit valid?” path. You may be punching up in that one very narrow incidence, but the precedent set would be absolutely punching down.
posted by corb at 10:52 PM on October 31, 2017 [70 favorites]

...Melania's initial illegal work without a visa? And what is the statute of limitations on that?

There is no statute of limitations; falsification of relevant facts in the application process for citizenship is one of the few reasons citizenship can be revoked.

It's rarely implemented, and is one of the aspects of law that needs strong restraints - on the one hand, serial killers who got citizenship with a false ID to run away from their crimes should probably be rejected. On the other, people whose only falsification was that they basically acted like US citizens before they had the legal right to do so, don't strike me as a threat to the country.

What counts as a "relevant fact" seems to depend a lot on the biases of the investigator.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:57 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: How Paul Manafort came by $934,350 in antique carpets

First, you walk into the store, thinking you need a small and simple rug to bring the room together, like “The Big Lebowski” advocated. You have lots of cash, for some reason. You can spend some on a rug, surely. Or what was the point of all your work abroad?

You look at some carpets. They all seem about the same, so you pick one at random.

“That one,” you say.

The salesman nods sagely. “I see that you are someone with an eye for carpets,” he says.

You have never thought of yourself as someone with an eye for carpets, but you always hate to disillusion people who have positive opinions of you, even when those people are salesmen. “Well,” you say, modestly, spreading your hands. “I dabble. I like a good…” Frantically, you try to remember the attributes that a good carpet is supposed to have. “Piling.”

“Ah yes,” the salesman says, smoothly, “a good, tall pile. Then you had better come with me.”

posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [52 favorites]

"As someone from an immigrant family, I would really, really like us not to go down the “20 years ago, before you became a citizen, was your work permit valid?” path. "

I'm not particularly interested in going down that path either, but I am curious about whether Mueller might, or whether it might be leverage against other people in the Trump family. I'm not advocating for it, just thinking through the legal situations at play.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:00 PM on October 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Look, Al Franken knows words. He knows the best words.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:01 PM on October 31, 2017

I would say this: If you advocate for things like "muslim bans" and "keeping out the unwashed brown people" your own household, specifically, should definitely be the first to be examined closely for compliance with the law.
posted by maxwelton at 11:05 PM on October 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

RE & RE: on the lighter side, the Atlantic has a profile of poor, poor Not That George Papadopoulos
("George Papadopoulos’s favorite dish: orzo with red sauce and beef")
posted by nicebookrack at 11:10 PM on October 31, 2017

some Ken Starr-caliber threadpulling.

That would be terrible.
posted by Artw at 11:12 PM on October 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

It was good to get rid of the Independent Counsel.
posted by rhizome at 11:15 PM on October 31, 2017

Look, Al Franken knows words. He knows the best words.

you may jest but he really does! years back when I had to transcribe all this shit he was my very favorite extemporaneous speaker next to, I don't know, Obama, who isn't a fair comparison because he usually had prepared remarks even though he didn't need to. so this is how I judge all politicians, the experience scarred me that way. Al Franken can just open his mouth and start talking and it comes out in mostly complete sentences that make some sense. that's more than most senators can do. it's more than even I can do. his words are a joy to type and to punctuate as he speaks them. that is what a performing arts career will do for you if you are smart to begin with and know how to take advantage of it.

there are plenty of other smart politicians but unfortunately most of them are incorrigible mumblers (Leahy) or have very unpleasant voices or just don't talk very well, even if they think all right. Al Franken is a jewel of the Senate is what he is. he has taken some foolish positions and some wrong ones, but not so very many.
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:16 PM on October 31, 2017 [89 favorites]

In my opinion at the time, they did this precisely because the human editors were filtering out the planted pro-Trump lies and executives wanted those to get through -- and that's exactly what happened.

It wasn't FB executives, GOP politicians and right wing media hucksters were throwing an absolute fit and were threatening governmental investigation into the so called 'bias' that for some reason a private company like FB is not allowed to have.
posted by PenDevil at 11:21 PM on October 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

Russia's Foreign Ministry thinks the Manafort indictment is just a "cooked up" case because it wrongly describes Yulia Tymoshenko as a former president of Ukraine instead of prime minister. Which, ok, that's a mistake, but taking a step back, this is Russia's Foreign Ministry going on state TV to attack Mueller and defend Manafort. That's, um, suspicious, no?
posted by zachlipton at 11:34 PM on October 31, 2017 [64 favorites]

Also, as a developer who cares about the tools I help build, I constantly monitor their usage and raise flags when I see weird shit. If you want to tell me there weren't developers at FB seeing what was going on and raising flags, well, FB must not employ very curious developers. Almost without a doubt, there were people who knew what was going on, and also almost without a doubt it was a business decision to do nothing about it.

Developer. Development Manager. Project Manager. Dir of Healthcare Software R&D. Shit, I'll even make a pot of coffee.

that "who cares about the tools I help build" cannot be overstated. That's a cultural thing. I'm doing a gig now with a CTO who became CTO by default, but really doesn't have the chops, and now that you've put it down on paper for me, it's totally clear WHY the organization has the IT Culture it does. I would suggest a list of symptoms of this dysfunction include : Ad-Hoc Structure, Always Putting Out Fires, Development priorities screwed up and production incidents are last on the triage list, and many others I am sure we're all familiar with.
posted by mikelieman at 11:46 PM on October 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Oh, and finally, this is all stuff ITIL, etc. fixed long, long ago. The fact that Corp. Management is so clueless about how deficient their C-level IT management is, is pathological and can't be fixed without bringing in people up to the challenge.
posted by mikelieman at 11:50 PM on October 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

"As someone from an immigrant family, I would really, really like us not to go down the “20 years ago, before you became a citizen, was your work permit valid?” path. "

Go down that path? What are you talking about? People are getting deported left and right for things that happened 20 years ago. People who were brought here as small children 20 years ago and didn't have a chance to lie on their work permit are getting deported. Women coming out of court from filing a restraining order against an abusive partner get arrested at the courthouse and deported. Workers who get injured on the job and need medical care get deported. A 10 year old girl in the hospital was arrested last week, the police stopped her ambulance.

I don't have any particular desire to see Melania deported. But people who look a lot like me and my family are getting deported for things that happened years ago. I think that a lot of them probably look like you and your family. But why is some rich, famous white lady with an anchor baby off limits for bringing up the fucking hypocrisy to make a rhetorical point?
posted by ActingTheGoat at 11:55 PM on October 31, 2017 [133 favorites]

Trump Plans for Nuclear Arsenal Require $1.2 Trillion, Congressional Review States

To be fair, a $160 contribution from every man, woman and child alive on Earth today is a small price to pay for the peace of mind that comes from knowing it will be the USA that blows us all to smithereens instead of one of those evil countries.
posted by flabdablet at 12:46 AM on November 1, 2017 [16 favorites]

so to be clear (and I'm sure somebody has already said this), we now know pretty much for certain that Trump is either a. a fool, b. a cunning psychopath or c. a cunning psychopathic fool ...

(not that anyone around here seems too surprised)
posted by philip-random at 12:49 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Not to be that guy, but you seem to have missed foolish psychopath.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 12:53 AM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Why settle for the cunning psychopathic fool when you can have the foolish psychopathic cun...

I'll see myself out.
posted by flabdablet at 1:00 AM on November 1, 2017 [29 favorites]

But he lacks the warmth and depth.

No, don't get up. I can just follow flabdablet.
posted by loquacious at 1:46 AM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

I was surprised that Facebook was paid in rubles, but it's true according to Mark Warner and the Senate Intelligence Committee. But that brings up another question: aren't there other filters in the US system to catch foreign cash that may be used for unclean purposes? I mean, banking, finance, commercial oversight. Sure, all these are inadequate etc., but the FBI routinely looks for possible money laundering and banks do have to report stuff. What I am wondering is if Facebook was a recipient of dirty money, who then mixed it with other income and deposited it. Sort of a total laundering.
posted by CCBC at 2:09 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Do any of the big tax cheaters like google, apple, facebook, et al, who all happen to have corporate offices in various Caribbean islands even need to take payment here in the US for this bullshit?
posted by maxwelton at 2:12 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

What I am wondering is if Facebook was a recipient of dirty money

How would the money look dirty? If a legitimate Russian company uses legitimate funds to buy political ads on Facebook, the intent might be questionable but nothing looks illegal.
posted by Dr Dracator at 2:18 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Reports say some of the Russian-sourced advertising was targeting Black Lives Matter supporters. How does that look when paid for in rubles? (Insert "Black Russian" joke here) or however they traced them back to their Russian sources when they finally decided to go looking (and it really seemed they got info on a lot of transactions quickly once they actually looked).
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:29 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Some exploration of why they "They paid in Roubles!" thing is something of a distraction from Ben Thompson (Stratechery) here.

Short version: of course of they paid in Roubles! Facebook will happily take 55 different currencies & takes payment in all of them all the time. Taking payment in Roubles is utterly unremarkable for Facebook, or any of the other large tech companies for that matter.
posted by pharm at 4:03 AM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

If a legitimate Russian company uses legitimate funds to buy political ads on Facebook, the intent might be questionable but nothing looks illegal.

It is illegal for foreign entities to try to influence an American election. There is some looseness about the Internet, but the law says:

The Act and Commission regulations include a broad prohibition on foreign national activity in connection with elections in the United States. 52 U.S.C. § 30121 and generally, 11 CFR 110.20. In general, foreign nationals are prohibited from the following activities:

Making any contribution or donation of money or other thing of value, or making any expenditure, independent expenditure, or disbursement in connection with any federal, state or local election in the United States...

The "Internet exception" says that individual expression, such as blogs or social media are exempt, but it seems to me that posts from a state or a state-supported group or however you label those responsible for the mass postings on Facebook are not individual expression. But it would take some effort by Congress to clarify the distinction. The trouble is, the law is meant to control donations and monetary contributions and is geared toward that. The Facebook ads should be seen as donations in services (advertising) and so a "thing of value" but maybe that brings us back to Citizens United, IDK. IANAL.
posted by CCBC at 4:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

Also, as a developer who cares about the tools I help build, I constantly monitor their usage and raise flags when I see weird shit.

Yup, I’m continually pointing out weird things in the data I work with or explaining why measuring something one way versus another will give a different result. There’s no way this wasn’t reported, just that the reports went nowhere. Someone knows and I hope they have the receipts.
posted by winna at 4:18 AM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

These poor guys didn’t expect Trump to win and therefore have their transactions scrutinized so carefully. I really feel for them. Oh, wait, no I don’t.
posted by Melismata at 5:14 AM on November 1, 2017 [26 favorites]

Watching the tech industry and their apologists turn into po-faced unknowing Luddites when it comes to the basics of functioning in society is bleakly hilarious.

Manned Mars missions? OUTTA THE WAY, NASA!
Supersonic transport tubes? GET READY TO COMMUTE LIKE HELL!
Drone deliveries of goods? AS SOON AS THE FAA SHUTS ITS TRAP, BUDDY!
Self-driving cards? ALREADY ON IT!

Conduct basic political advertising checks requires by every other industry? WHOA WHOA WHOA first of all HOW DARE YOU
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 5:32 AM on November 1, 2017 [214 favorites]

Watching the tech industry and their apologists turn into po-faced unknowing Luddites when it comes to the basics of functioning in society is bleakly hilarious.

It is perhaps late to prevent the Facebook derail, but I would like to divert further comments to these threads:

previously: "Given this scary state of the world, with ecological collapse just over the horizon, and a population sharpening its pitchforks, an important question is how this globalized, unaccountable tech industry sees its goals. What does it want? What will all the profits be invested in? What is the plan? The honest answer is: rocket ships and immortality. I wish I was kidding."

previously: "So without explicitly coding for this behavior, we already have a dynamic where people are pulled to the extremes. Things get worse when third parties are allowed to use these algorithms to target a specific audience. [...] Because of the potent way in which it combines social life with publishing, Facebook poses a unique challenge. At a minimum, we need to break up Facebook so that its social features are divorced from the news feed."

previously: "Facebook tells us that by liking and sharing stuff on social media, we can train their algorithm to better understand what we find relevant, and improve it for ourselves and everyone else. [..] What Facebook is really doing is training us to click more. Every click means money, so the site shows us whatever it has to to to maximize those clicks."

very previously: "The mass of men serve the State thus, not as men mainly, but as machines, with their bodies. They are the standing army, and the militia, jailers, constables, posse comitatus, &c. In most cases there is no free exercise whatever of the judgment or of the moral sense; but they put themselves on a level with wood and earth and stones; and wooden men can perhaps be manufactured that will serve the purpose as well. Such command no more respect than men of straw, or a lump of dirt. They have the same sort of worth only as horses and dogs. Yet such as these even are commonly esteemed good citizens."

(I seriously find it distressing that statistics and ethics aren't mandatory classes for young computer programmers. I own a small tech company, and I spend every opportunity to push my employees to study both. I was very surprised that they welcomed it and aren't sick of me harping on privacy and responsibility.)
posted by ragtag at 6:05 AM on November 1, 2017 [52 favorites]

"I’m going to take half of Chloe’s candy tonight & give it to some kid who sat at home. It’s never to early to teach her about socialism."

Daughter of wealthy family goes around literally getting handouts, and it's the kid who didn't do that who's the undeserving one. You taught her something about socialism in this country, all right.
posted by Rykey at 6:11 AM on November 1, 2017 [74 favorites]

Also a developer who is somewhat incredulous at Facebook not knowing what is going on. That would require everyone's who works there to be utterly incurious about the uses the tools they built were put to.
posted by Artw at 6:12 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Ah, but things like rules and accountability really gets in the way of the big tech nerd hard-on about being "disruptive".

Might also cause the poor dears to confront the reality that they aren't actually the smartest people ever, and that the state of affairs as they exist today may in fact have arisen from important considerations that they do not understand.

This willful ignorance runs deep in tech culture. They sure do get off on being critical and contemptuous of things that they don't understand one little bit.
posted by Sublimity at 6:13 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
The terrorist came into our country through what is called the "Diversity Visa Lottery Program," a Chuck Schumer beauty. I want merit based.

Jeff Flake
@JeffFlake
Actually, the Gang of 8, including @SenSchumer, did away with the Diversity Visa Program as part of broader reforms. I know, I was there
posted by Room 641-A at 6:14 AM on November 1, 2017 [122 favorites]

Not to mention that tends in advertising is the sort of thing you put together entire teams of people to analyze and I've seen at least one internal tool for doing so proudly demoed by one of their teams at a tech meet-up.
posted by Artw at 6:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

National Treasure Alexandra Petri, WaPo: John Kelly was right: The Civil War was all about compromise

I've been sort of half paying attention to Kelly's nonsense for a day or two and I wish someone would ask Kelly who was the better, more honorable General: Robert E. Lee or Võ Nguyên Giáp. Just to fuck with him.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Reports say some of the Russian-sourced advertising was targeting Black Lives Matter supporters. How does that look when paid for in rubles?

The problem is no one (other than the intelligence services) ever considered that people might be pushing domestic protest movements as a way to increase partisan rancor. Foreign money flows into protest movements all the time, honestly, because individuals whose banks are in foreign countries feel sympathy for the movement and want to help it. When we were doing anti-Iraq war protesting, there were a lot of sincere donations from Japan and Germany, for example.

And there wasn’t a straight line from “built up protest movements” to “influenced an election”. Until now.
posted by corb at 6:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

it will be the USA that blows us all to smithereens

smaller smithereens

I'm frustrated and weary of hearing about how not using Facebook is not an option, for work, for family or whatever

Fuck Facebook with the strength of a $1.2 trillion dollar nuclear arsenal upgrade.

Actually, it makes me want to grow a crazy Richard Stallman Unix-grade wizard beard and scream "You fools! You damn fools!" from the top of some windblasted wall somewhere while brandishing a staff and tearing out that beard in anguish while lighting fills the sky behind me.

Truly brothers and sisters, the view from up here is breathtaking and it is wonderful to gather around the fire at night. You don't even need a beard.
posted by dmh at 6:22 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Fuck Facebook with the strength of a $1.2 trillion dollar nuclear arsenal upgrade.

$1.6 trillion+ if you remember inflation is a thing
which of course this white house didn't
posted by halation at 6:25 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

The problem is no one (other than the intelligence services) ever considered that people might be pushing domestic protest movements as a way to increase partisan rancor.

In the months following September 11th, I remember thinking that if terrorists really wanted to inflict long-term damage on the US, then a campaign to exacerbate partisan rancor would do nicely. Start by burning a few churches and try to blame it on "leftists," then bomb a few Planned Parenthood offices and try to blame it on religious zealots and you'd be on your way, I thought. I didn't foresee then, that social media would make the actual bombings entirely superfluous.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:28 AM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

Scenario I've been pondering: suppose during some dark night of the soul, Zuckerberg decides to convince enough executives at Facebook that their site is a historic a mistake and, without checking with anyone else, shut the whole site down. No newsfeeds, no messenger, no app, no site. The world wakes up to a 404 Facebook.

As a corporation with a board and shareholders it would be pretty much impossible for it to be shut down unless it stopped being profitable or it was pivoting to something else more profitable (and probably more awful).
posted by srboisvert at 6:30 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

This was 200+ comments ago, but can we stop with Seth Abramson tweetstorms please?

"Sessions now admits to having communicated to Ambassador Kislyak the Trump campaign's position on US-Russia sanctions—that is, against."

That would be hugely significant... if it happened. I am like 99% I would have heard about it. And I never did. I believe this is another patented Abramson embellishment. His tweets may be 90% fact but 10% bullshit and wishful thinking. What they never are is SOURCED.

Can we please stop listening to Seth Abramson?
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:33 AM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

I'm frustrated and weary of hearing about how not using Facebook is not an option, for work, for family or whatever

"Well sure, but you can scale back how often you're on it right? Take the app off your phone, try not to visit the site for two days, stuff like that right?"

I used to think the same thing. Everyone's on Facebook so everyone HAS to be on Facebook to keep in touch. At some point I had to travel for work or something and didn't look at Facebook for three days. I realized this and decided to add a fourth. Then I didn't visit the site again for a week, then two weeks. Now I open Facebook once or twice a month and that's plenty.

And the only time I'm on the site is when I'm actively visiting the site. I'll get an e-mail if someone sends me a message or if I've been invited to an event but that's it.
posted by VTX at 6:34 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Flagged as fantastic loquacious. You've very eloquently expressed what has been bugging me about social media and people's refusal to consider abandoning it:

I think people should stop using Facebook and go back to doing the legwork (and maybe emotional labor) of managing their own social dialog, contacts and communications [...]

If you'll all allow me to be stern and maybe quite cross for a moment - I'm frustrated and weary of hearing about how not using Facebook is not an option, for work, for family or whatever. There are many, many other options. They just take more work, and they aren't as persistent or pervasive.

In the last ten years or so, we collectively decided that we were going to let a private advertising company mediate the vast majority of social interactions. Truth is, friendships and family relationships, and political movement require social work.

Maybe I'm swimming up stream here, but I hope to see the day when everyone abandons Facebook, Twitter, and the rest of them en masse and bankrupts some of the greedy jerks.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 6:40 AM on November 1, 2017 [49 favorites]

While I'd love to read this as bad news for Trump (hello 25th!), I'm sure it's just more ratfucking the country planned.

@ChadPergram (FOX)
McConnell, Ryan, WH Cos Kelly, Nat’l Sec Adviser McMaster & DefSec Mattis all had dinner tonight
posted by chris24 at 6:44 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

Maybe I'm swimming up stream here, but I hope to see the day when everyone abandons Facebook, Twitter, and the rest of them en masse and bankrupts some of the greedy jerks.

This, this, a million times this.

We live in a capitalist society. Money is the only speech that matters. If you continue to use these systems, you are manufacturing the ammunition that will be used against you.

Everyone deleting their accounts en masse is one of the only effective nonviolent tools we have left. If we don't use it, then pretty soon the only effective tools we'll have access to are violent ones.

If you still have an account, please please please, for all of our sakes, find alternatives.
posted by ragtag at 6:45 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Everyone deleting their accounts en masse is one of the only effective nonviolent tools we have left.

I'm a reasonably bright gal, but every time I "left" Facebook I somehow still had an account. So I followed one of those TRULY AND REALLY delete your Facebook account FOREVER tutorials a year or so ago. Everything looked good. I was pretty darn sure that I didn't have a Facebook account anymore. Then I received a Facebook link from my dad to one of his public posts in an email and I clicked on it. And I was logged in. To my account. The one I deleted. The one I told them to delete forever really and truly. It's like the fucking Hotel California.
posted by xyzzy at 6:52 AM on November 1, 2017 [98 favorites]

CNN: 'I want to quit': Fox News employees say their network's Russia coverage was 'an embarrassment'

Notably, a lot of Fox News employees seemed willing to talk to CNN for that piece. That seems new.
posted by schmod at 6:55 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Josh Marshall (TPM) Ummm … What’s Up With Sam Clovis?

In March of 2016 Donald Trump was getting a growing number of questions about who was advising him on foreign policy. He did not seem to have any foreign policy advisors. So when he met with The Washington Post editorial board on March 21st he announced a team of five foreign policy advisors. Walid Phares, Carter Page, George Papadopoulos, Joe Schmitz, and ret. Lt. Gen. Keith Kellogg.

For a long time we did not know on what basis the five had been chosen or who had done the choosing. But as the Russia probe heated up, it became clear that the person who chose the group was Sam Clovis. We now know that two of those five men immediately began trying to establish contacts between the Trump campaign and the government of Russia or spies working on behalf of Russia. Two of five. That’s a hell of a batting average. [...]

Based on yesterday’s revelations, we know that Clovis was George Papadopoulos’s primary interlocutor with the Trump campaign as he met with his Russian government contacts in London and Italy. “Great work” Clovis told Papadopoulos after one email exchange about Papadopoulos’s effort to broker a meeting between Trump and Russian leaders. [...]

There’s some story here. It is impossible to believe that two of these five would dive into these kind of activities by some kind of coincidence. Clovis did not seem to find it all strange that Papadopoulos was doing this stuff. He encouraged it. There’s a story. What is it?

posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 6:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [56 favorites]

Everyone deleting their accounts en masse is one of the only effective nonviolent tools we have left.

shadow accounts are a thing

(i'll be out back sharpening my pitchfork)
posted by entropicamericana at 6:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

The one I told them to delete forever really and truly. It's like the fucking Hotel California.

That’s because they actually keep it for a full year ‘just in case’ you change your mind. Logging in at any point, even accidentally or via browser cookies, cancels the deletion. It’s absolute bullshit.

You gotta scramble your password and delete all your cookies and block all FB widgets with an adblocker to make sure.
posted by Happy Dave at 6:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Facebook is for:
* Restaurant info and specials
* Small businesses showing off what's new / events / points of interest
* Annoying friends and family with game requests for Candy Vampire Mafia Adventure Pony Dragon Battle Quest Saga Wars because if you run out of energy or levels there you will simply DIE
* Letting local burglars know when you're out of town for a week
* Cat pictures.

All else there is noise and should be autoflagged for deletion.
posted by delfin at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

I really, really miss the days where people were willing to do a little legwork to interact on the internet. Bookmark your friends' blogs, set up an RSS feed, visit more than one website.

Right now I'm working on some photo display improvements for the WordPress site I keep for my kid. (It's password protected, only family has access.) I have also been working on partying like it's 1998 and keeping a blog myself. I set up a WP multisite for the family so we all have our own little space to do whatever we want to maintain social ties (I think my husband plans on using his for long-distance D&D with his pals).

It does take more effort, and technical know-how (and actually right now I'm frustrated because my domain is not directing quite correctly and I can't figure out how to make it do the thing), and it does feel like shouting into the void because if you make a blog in the woods and no one is there, does it make a sound?

I'd like to not be anywhere near Facebook. I do have an account, though (not connected in any way to my real name) only to follow a couple groups. Like, the local chicken-keepers group which is occasionally useful to ask questions of, they used to have a website but no one has touched that site to update it in years because it all moved to Facebook. And I used to belong to Ye Olde phpBB forum but the site owner shut that down because she got sick of maintaining it (fair enough) and it all moved to Facebook. And then after the election, all the organizing was on fucking Facebook. MAKE A WEBSITE, PEOPLE. IT'S NOT THAT HARD. I mean, heck, throw some bucks to your local freelance web designer and participate in your local economy! Gah!
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2017 [32 favorites]

The problem is no one (other than the intelligence services) ever considered that people might be pushing domestic protest movements as a way to increase partisan rancor.

For what it's worth, some FB employees did notice troubling patterns (Buzzfeed) in other contexts but (shocked face) FB leadership was unconcerned. So even if engineers and data analytics folks did raise alarms about sources of ad payments , it's possible that FB decision makers shrugged. That goes for Twitter, Google, and other compromised social media sites, too.
posted by skye.dancer at 7:01 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

People, if your plan is "everyone will just decide to do things in a more difficult, time consuming, way because I think that the easier way is morally bad" then you need a new plan.

We're talking about human beings here. Doing things the easier, less time consuming, way is an essential part of most humans. Sure, there's always an oddball minority who will take your suggestion, but the great mass of humanity will not be abandoning Facebook for more difficult, more time consuming, ways of keeping in touch with their friends and families.

You've got a vastly, infinitely, better chance of regulating, or even nationalizing, Facebook than you do getting your average person to give it up.

The whole "I don't do Facebook" thing is the same sort of smugly superior luxury that saying "I don't even own a TV" is. Yay, you're personally more virtuous than the peasantry! Congrats, here's your certificate of awesomeness testifying that you're morally superior to everyone else! Now that we've got that out of the way, how about we discuss practical things that might fix the problems?
posted by sotonohito at 7:02 AM on November 1, 2017 [123 favorites]

Are we done with the Franken Facebook thing yet? Because Franken is clearly not scolding Facebook for a technical error, but an administrative oversight that seems, on the face of it, absurdly obvious.

"I see Franken's comments as hostile to those that code this shit and then get shit when the shit hits the fan when they don't get the answers they want"

922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a, where are you seeing anyone blaming Facebook's programmers for taking ad money in rubles and failing to make a connection? I'm not seeing that.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:04 AM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

You've got a vastly, infinitely, better chance of regulating, or even nationalizing, Facebook than you do getting your average person to give it up.

if this is in fact true, welcome to dystopia forever, because both of those things have essentially a zero percent chance of happening, ever
posted by halation at 7:05 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

'smugly superior luxury'

What the hell does that even mean?
posted by repoman at 7:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

It's sadly predictable that the same vast right wing media machine that insisted discussing the Las Vegas shooting in any way other than sending "thoughts and prayers" [1] is now telling us that we must, **MUST** I say, immediately discuss the NYC vehicular terrorism in terms of politics and banning Muslims.

Naturally when a white, Christian, right winger committed an identical act of terrorism back in Charlottesville then it was also totally and wildly inappropriate to even mention that it was an act of right wing terrorism.

What distresses me is how eagerly our so called liberal media plays along with this sort of right wing framing. I've heard the NYC attack described as terrorism on NPR more often than the Las Vegas attack and the Charlottesville attack combined.

As always, terrorism is being defined as something exclusive to brown people or Muslims, while no action by white people (especially right wing, Christian white people) can be considered terrorism.

We really desperately need some of the more liberal billionaires to set up a self sustaining foundation that pays for genuinely independent, fact based, media. It doesn't even need to have an explicitly liberal bias, just a refusal to use the standard right wing framing.

[1] Note, but not money. Many of the survivors are being forced into medial bankruptcy due to bills for their injuries. Only in America can you be the survivor of a mass shooting and see your entire life crumble because you were sent to the hospital.
posted by sotonohito at 7:12 AM on November 1, 2017 [57 favorites]

Somewhere on one of these political threads someone pointed out that a lot of people's only contact with the internet is through their phones. A lot of people do not have computers at home. Effective Facebook replacement solutions have to be something that's mobile friendly, preferably an app of some kind.

I think it's beyond the reach of this thread, but I'm contemplating putting together an AskMe question that is along the lines of "I use facebook/twitter for w, x, y, and z -- if I want to move off of these platforms and still have that capability, what are my options?"

I think screaming "Don't use this!" isn't going to have the massive quit rates people want without providing alternatives that would be meaningful. People moved things over to facebook because it was effective at what they wanted it to do.
posted by JustKeepSwimming at 7:12 AM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

How about a platform and standard that is easy to use to aggregate and display individually owned and created content? Like, hyperlinks exist. Use them. Link out. We don't need to all put all our content in the same place. Click the thing, go to a whole new place. It'll even open in a new tab, you won't lose your spot on the original site. (Yes, I know the reason why people won't just put a link in their tweet but instead do that grating thing where they take a screenshot of whatever they wrote is because people won't click links but LINKS WERE THE WHOLE MAIN INNOVATION OF THE WWW PLEASE CLICK THE LINKS!!!)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:13 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

The whole "I don't do Facebook" thing is the same sort of smugly superior luxury

I'm pretty sure that doesn't exactly capture where my mother, stepdad, in-laws, or bandmate are coming from . . .
posted by aspersioncast at 7:14 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Everyone's on Facebook

I'm not!

shaddap
posted by flabdablet at 7:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Eric Berger, Ars Technica: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

Translation: Elon Musk is targeted for liberal views and for funding (or his ability to fund) liberal causes.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

If Facebook is so important, why hasn't it become nationalized or open sourced?
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2017

repoman It means the declarations from people that they don't use Facebook always seem to have a lot of smugness, they aren't merely declarations that the person doesn't use Facebook but always carry overtones of moral or intellectual superiority.

And "luxury" because not using Facebook is one of those bourgeoisie things that matters only to people with a certain degree of social and economic security not afforded to everyone.

Unless a person is independently wealthy there's always a great deal of time constraints on them, and any time and labor saving device is a relief because it allows scarce and limited personal resources to be directed to better, more important, things. By making the emotional labor of maintaining relationships easier, Facebook has freed up a lot of time from a great many people that they can spend with family, friends, hobbies, or whatever else.

Going back to a non-Facebook, slower, more difficult, means of doing that emotional labor is, therefore a luxury. Something that people who have more spare time can afford, but the average person will find onerous.

ZeusHumms Same reason food and medicine haven't. America is fucked up.
posted by sotonohito at 7:20 AM on November 1, 2017 [30 favorites]

Translation: Elon Musk is targeted for liberal views and for funding (or his ability to fund) liberal causes.

So much for entrepreneurs, supporting the private sector, and job creators.

In other news, Peter “ZOMG TERRORISM!!1” King from New York was just on tv in support of the immigration lottery system.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:20 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

I use Facebook a lot for speaking to friends in Cote d'Ivoire and Nigeria - we use Whatsapp too, but guess what! That's also owned by Facebook. We're not using it because of laziness, but because it is too expensive for them to call or sms me, and Facebook Messenger is free.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:22 AM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

(Also? Not owning a TV for several years was hugely instrumental in my mid-20s to getting out from under terrible self-esteem and body image issues due to growing up female in America. Not being blasted daily with advertisements purposefully created to make me feel bad about myself beamed directly into my eyeballs was pretty key to my development into a functioning adult. Don't knock it.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:22 AM on November 1, 2017 [37 favorites]

It’s virtue signaling all the way down.
posted by notyou at 7:22 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

If Facebook is truly necessary for modern life then it needs to be regulated like a utility. Ditto the ISPs.

Honestly, I’d go beyond that. Citizens need basic rights with respect to necessities. Right after we get full gay space communist health care, I would like to go after all the monopolists. With a pitchfork.

(You’d think they’d want to self-regulate to avoid the angry mob effect, right? How ironic would it be if Facebook, of all companies, misjudged the rising tide of public anger at everything?)
posted by schadenfrau at 7:23 AM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

I'm not smug about not using Facebook--it's definitely cost me friends not to because some people refuse to talk to you in any other way--but it's all too easy to get harassed and get your life ruined if you use social media. I don't think it's safe to use, so I sacrifice things for not being a super easy target.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:23 AM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

I do not want to count my chickens yet but I'm hoping that we get to coin new words for the various nuances of schadenfreude caused by the fall of different players here. For instance, Jared-related schadenfreude would have "I knew dicks like that in college" on the nose and a finish dominated by a strong "wow he's stupid" note, while Don Jr.-related schadenfreude would be more "god I'd love to punch this asshole"-forward.
posted by Lyme Drop at 7:23 AM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

If Facebook is so important, why hasn't it become nationalized or open sourced?

Money, of course.

Facebook is valuable precisely because Facebook is valuable: the fact that people are on Facebook, and that switching networks (indeed, even to something better) requires effort, and that each of those people is worth some small amount of money, is worth something additional all on it's own.

Instagram and WhatsApp weren't worth a fortune because their code was great: they were worth a fortune because they had a large number of users.

Also, sorry, I was trying to head off further derail :(
posted by ragtag at 7:24 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Eric Berger, Ars Technica: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

Translation: Elon Musk is targeted for liberal views and for funding (or his ability to fund) liberal causes.

Apologies to Room 641-A and others - I think I mischaracterized the article.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:24 AM on November 1, 2017

There are over 2 billion monthly active facebook accounts worldwide. The number increases around 17% each year.

5 new facebook profiles are created every second.

There are over 300 million photos uploaded to Facebook every day.

Realistically, what does 'everyone abandons their Facebook accounts en masse to bankrupt the jerks' look like in this scenario?

Twitter at least has a lower bar:

There are 695 million registered Twitter users and 342 million are active, with 115 million active every month.

135K new profiles sign up every day.

58 million tweets are sent every day.

So again, what does 'everyone abandons their Twitter accounts en masse to bankrupt the jerks' look like in that scenario? Realistically?
posted by zarq at 7:27 AM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

Also, a majority of Facebook users aren't American. Even assuming everyone in the U.S. cared enough about political advertising scandals to "delete" their accounts, how many people outside the U.S. would?
posted by FakeFreyja at 7:31 AM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

But that brings up another question: aren't there other filters in the US system to catch foreign cash that may be used for unclean purposes? I mean, banking, finance, commercial oversight.

The answer is yes. I have a background in developing systems for monitoring international monetary transactions. There are over 200 different types of transaction message systems out there, with many in the process of moving to the ISO 20022 standard so that the format is a little more standardized between systems. The biggest that I worked with were SWIFT MX/MT (yes, the SWIFT that got hacked), SEPA (limited to Euros) and SARIE.

Some transaction monitoring systems are designed to look at overall patterns, but many operate by heuristic rules that vary from institution to institution based on internal rules and their relationship with their individual regulator. A lot of the annoyance with anti-crime banking regulation is the lack of descriptiveness; the rules are interpreted uniquely from bank to bank and based on feedback from the various layers of regulators. This also has the effect of making the system a little more robust because each system is implemented a little differently.

Typically, there are rules to hold (for examination by a human) or disallow all together certain transactions from different countries or currencies. They also do analysis on some of the fields to screen for bad actors, their aliases, or look for keywords. Much of the shenanigans regarding international transactions can be found in additional instructions delivered via the comments field. These screening and monitoring systems operate on millions of transactions a day with minimal human review, so there is really no excuse for Facebook.

That said, there are a lot of smaller banks that don't have extensive monitoring in place, but the little guys, especially in the United States, don't do many international transactions so this is not a huge problem.
posted by Alison at 7:31 AM on November 1, 2017 [29 favorites]

If Facebook is so important, why hasn't it become nationalized or open sourced?

What, like the Internet?

If we want to be realistic about fixing the current system we should at least approach the problem honestly, folks.
posted by lydhre at 7:32 AM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

Can we focus back on politics instead of social media?
posted by agregoli at 7:33 AM on November 1, 2017 [43 favorites]

@realdonaldtrump "Senator Chuck Schumer helping to import Europes problems" said Col.Tony Shaffer. We will stop this craziness! @foxandfriends

if only we had not imported another of europe's problems
posted by entropicamericana at 7:36 AM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

‘A Chuck Schumer beauty’: Trump and allies gin up a new culprit for New York terrorist attack [WaPo]

The party line is essentially an attack on the Diversity Lottery, although there's no evidence that's how Saipov got into the country.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:37 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Can we focus back on politics instead of social media?

I'm a little bored with this debate too. (Because in my mind Facebook is a publisher just like any other, and the solution is the same as the solution was in the Hearst/"yellow journalism" days -- truth in advertising regulations and disclosure requirements enforced by the government, and public shaming by consumers when they don't maintain standards. Now we just have to DO it.)

And but so anyway... I am not convinced there is a difference between "politics" and "social media" anymore.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:40 AM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

Oh, and Schumer actually tried to get rid of the Diversity Visa Lottery. And the fucking president either can't be arsed to use possessive apostrophes, or thinks there are plural Europes.
posted by aspersioncast at 7:40 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

(By the way, metafilter is also "social media." It just shows what a difference moderators make!)
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:40 AM on November 1, 2017 [44 favorites]

The party line is essentially an attack on the Diversity Lottery, although there's no evidence that's how Saipov got into the country.

Which is just dumb because Saipov was radicalized after he arrived in the US.
posted by Talez at 7:41 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

This conversation is so predictable that I knew someone would say that there is no difference between politics and social media in response to my comment. The point is, there is no reason to do the "leave Facebook/people can't/won't leave Facebook" convo again, and especially no reason to do it in this thread.
posted by agregoli at 7:43 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

Domestic radicalization, of course, can also look like this.
posted by Artw at 7:45 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Y'all. Senate Intel is having their go at the bros this morning.

Some of them. In Risch's case, "having a go" was a grand apologia that literally only asked the bros to agree with him that figuring out what the Russians are up to is "hard".
posted by solotoro at 7:45 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Ukraine says it told Facebook about Russia's "information war" in 2015 (Alayna Treene, Axios)

The head of Ukraine's presidential administration, Dmytro Shymkiv, told the Financial Times that his country's government warned Facebook and U.S. officials in 2015 that Russia was using "aggressive behavior" to spread disinformation on social media in an "information war." Shymkiv said Facebook's response was that they're an "open platform" that allows everyone to communicate.

posted by Room 641-A at 7:47 AM on November 1, 2017 [73 favorites]

So, yeah, social media sucks and all but since we are all on it, could you please post far and wide that ACA/Obamacare* Open Enrollment starts today at healthcare.gov? If you need graphics to post, please DM me and I'll send some to you.

More info at zachlipton's great FPP.

*I've found that many people I've spoken to don't know what the ACA is so I'm continuing to call it Obamacare.
posted by mcduff at 7:48 AM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

Folks, in this thread, enough with "quit Facebook" vs. "you're smug", etc. Stuff relevant to the hearings can go here, but the other stuff (which I agree is repetitive and done to death) should get its own thread if people really need to go around that loop again.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:49 AM on November 1, 2017 [25 favorites]

Yeah, I'm not getting why this seems like such a difficult problem to solve. Nor why it wouldn't have been in FB best interests to solve on day one of selling advertising. If you are selling ads, you want to know who's buying them so...you can sell them more ads.

Because in business, particularly business that is engaging in grey or outright illegal activities, stored data is data you're responsible for. You're responsible for keeping it secure (though the penalties there are far too light), you're responsible for preserving it if someone gets a whiff that you have it and they can get a court to order you to produce it, you're responsible for the actions you take that were or simply could have been informed by your knowledge of it.

If, on the other hand, you never even collect that data, then when you're plopped down under oath you can say "that's not something we ever looked into."

Franken is beating up these people because the answer to "can we?" is, as anyone in tech (who isn't incompetent or a liar) can tell you, is effectively always[1] "of course, presuming you're willing to spend the time, money, and effort." A lot of that effort is not just implementation, but user - you have to collect data, maybe make things less smooth, etc. And that's undesirable to places like Facebook who want you on all the time or Amazon who wants you to be able to buy shit with minimal time to think about it.

Franken's not trying to ask them to just push a button. He's angling at getting them to admit that of course this is a thing they could have done and probably to get them to say well yeah that's all data we already had so he can get them to nobody ever asked us to do it and maybe we were explicitly told not to do anything that might bubble those facts up to the surface.

[1] There are of course Hard Problems in computing but fuck and all of them are in social media or ad bullshit. There the challenge is at best one of how to execute your latest turn in ad vs anti-ad.
posted by phearlez at 7:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

Guys, I think I'm becoming domestically radical.

totally_tubular.gif

gnarly.jpg

hang_10.exe

posted by aspersioncast at 7:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

It's a suprise nobody has talked about Russian disinformation efforts before, since I certainly talk about them here all the fucking time.
posted by Artw at 7:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Y'all. Senate Intel is having their go at the bros this morning. (PBS Newshour stream which works if your office has Bluecoat blocking CSPAN)

Thanks for this. So far the tenor of the answers is something along the lines of, "We're looking at that and technobabble and improving every day."

But I'm not sure that I am finding the line of questioning entirely fair. Google, how could you possibly give RT a preferred ranking when they are a propaganda outlet paid for by the Russian government?! With respect, Sen. Feinstein and the rest of her colleagues have had a couple of decades to monitor and regulate commercial behavior on the internet. Why in the hell would Google and Facebook and Twitter make more work for themselves if there are no regulations to guide these business activities? I mean, they could do these things out of the kindness of their hearts, and it would be nice to see some level of morality introduced into the techbro culture. But, ultimately, the buck stopped with Congress and they utterly failed to meet the challenges presented by the internet as a commercial and media space. So, sure, shame on the tech triumvirate currently testifying, but, more importantly, shame on Congress.
posted by xyzzy at 7:54 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

What distresses me is how eagerly our so called liberal media plays along with this sort of right wing framing.

I just had a flashback to 1996.
posted by Gelatin at 7:54 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

A couple reporters livetweeting the Senate hearing, if you can't watch right now: @MikeIsaac, @LoopEmma, @CaseyNewton. Sen. Feinstein is hitting hard:

I must say, I don't think you get it. You're general counsels, you defend your company. What we're talking about is a cataclysmic change. What we're talking about is the beginning of cyber warfare. What we're talking about is a major foreign power witht he sophistication and ability to involve thselves in a presidential election and sow conflict and discontent all over this country. We are not going to go away, gentlemen. And this is a very big deal. I went home last nigth wtih profound disappointment. I asked specific questions, I got vague answers. And that just won't do. You have a huge problem on your hands. And the US is going to be the first of the countries to bring it to your attention, and other countries are going to follow I'm sure. Because you bear this responsibility. You created these platforms and now they're being misused. And you have to be the ones who do something about it - or we will

And @marcorubio w a great Q: is a foreign influence campaign a violation of terms of service? Twitter hems, FB seems to say yes. No Google answr

On another note, thanks mcduff! Come talk about health care and get yourself covered.
posted by zachlipton at 7:56 AM on November 1, 2017 [72 favorites]

Feinstein basically told them shape up or get regulated HARD, and Rubio was pissed because some of this affected the last time he ran. That was fun.
posted by solotoro at 8:01 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Y'all. Senate Intel is having their go at the bros this morning.

Wyden is not here to play today.
posted by halation at 8:01 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Feinstein basically told them shape up or get regulated HARD

honestly I feel like this needs to be a both-and. they lost their shot at having the option of 'or' for this.
posted by halation at 8:02 AM on November 1, 2017 [39 favorites]

is jack there? i want to see kamala harris fuck his shit up
posted by entropicamericana at 8:04 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

I brought attention to the Senate hearings so, you know, we could actually talk about what the senators were asking and what responses they were getting. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

This is actually something I'd been meaning to post about, but hadn't had time recently. Last Thursday, I ended up watching the livestream of the Senate Energy committee hearing, because my boss was one of the people testifying ... and it was INTERESTING, and gave me some level of faith that some of the people who we tend to tar and feather with a broad brush around here actually AREN'T complete yo-yos. I highly recommend spending a little more time watching committee meetings and testimony - it gave a little reassurance that maybe some parts of the government are still operating in a semi-functional manner.

(Of course, it also spotlighted that Senator Franken chose to spend his time asking a non-question that was really a statement which was 95% unrelated to the topic at hand, and Senator Manchin chose to spend his time suggesting that cyber-security of the energy sector wasn't a problem and all we needed was more coal, but, well, these things happen.)
posted by jferg at 8:05 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

But when they are framed as a necessity, as if we couldn't let go of these problematic platforms, as if our quality of life would be diminished without them, I start to feel like a Luddite.

I spend a decent chunk of Radical Technologies detailing just how and why smartphones are effectively indispensable, as well as why our practical agency on just about every level is diminished by a lack of access to them.

We know, for example, that refugees washing up on European shores, in the most distressing personal circumstances, often ask for a smartphone even before what would appear to be far more vital provisions, like hot food or a guarantee of safe shelter. I'm not quite ready to ascribe the same level of necessity to Facebook, but there's certainly a case to be made.

This is the world we've built. We ought to get about understanding (and even better, where possible anticipating) its implications, and building the structures of governance and regulation appropriate to that world. While we still can.
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [32 favorites]

These guys are going on about their "Fake News" identification tools, which is very limited and useless tool. Facebook has somehow limited this "Report this as Fake News" option to only post types that are URLs pointing to known news sites. If a user is posting some stupid imgur meme about how Obama's a kenyan citizen, or reforwarding an NRA video, there is no option to mark this as "Dangerous Propaganda".

I'm not sure what the answer looks like there, but I wish Sen. Wyden good luck with this particular windmill.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 8:07 AM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

Jack could be busy with his plan for how they've are totally going to block Nazis and bots any time now and whoops everyone who makes fun of the Nazis got blocked instead.
posted by Artw at 8:07 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Is...is Collins filibustering her own questioning period?
posted by solotoro at 8:07 AM on November 1, 2017

is jack there? i want to see kamala harris fuck his shit up

None of the CEOs are there. They sent the general counsels. Which, yeah, I get it, can't have photos out there of them being sworn in, but it also turns this into a "legal" problem where the companies are all about defending themselves, rather than a "product" problem where famously hands-on CEOs are grappling with the right way to better their platforms.
posted by zachlipton at 8:09 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

is jack there?

pretty sure he's off somewhere busily flogging square as The Future Of Commerce and leaving legal to just kinda handle his giant eternal tire fire as best they can
posted by halation at 8:11 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

synereo: nascent decentralized media platform aiming for complete user control of their content/action. peer-ing, blockchain, &c.
marketing-speak is...tolerable.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Notre Dame has dropped their birth control coverage for their students and staff. More places are going to follow suit. It makes me so sad that we have to fight for basic women's healthcare in 2017.
posted by agregoli at 8:18 AM on November 1, 2017 [93 favorites]

To follow up on my previous comment, what Wyden seems to be asking for is for Facebook and Twitter to provide a solution that takes our current situation of a country that's separated into two ideologically distinct bubbles, and to either:

A) apply a "fake news" label upon one bubble's media feed, where the "fakeness" is derived largely from the input from the other bubble. (let the largest bubble win?)

B) remove/label anything that either bubble defines as "fake" from all. (the pablum solution)

I think Wyden might have better luck calling for the wholesale prohibition of social media companies with combined userbases over some limit.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 8:23 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

synereo: nascent decentralized media platform aiming for complete user control of their content/action. peer-ing, blockchain, &c.

At the risk of an utter derail, can we please stop pretending that arrangements based on the blockchain are anything but a way of inscribing the most toxic, puerile anarchocapitalist values at the very base of our social being?
posted by adamgreenfield at 8:25 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

Man, fuck bubble theory and the both-sides false equivalence it rode in on.
posted by Artw at 8:25 AM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

A small reminder that the fascists at 1600 Pennsylvania have been fantastic for Twitter's bottom line. They're about to close in on their first profitable quarter ever.

As early as 8 months ago, there was a ton of skepticism about whether or not that would happen ever. I was originally going to snark that the easiest way to kill Twitter would be to wait for the company to run out of money... however, it looks like Twitter may very well be a major beneficiary of our ongoing national disaster.
posted by schmod at 8:27 AM on November 1, 2017 [41 favorites]

Notre Dame has dropped their birth control coverage for their students and staff. More places are going to follow suit. It makes me so sad that we have to fight for basic women's healthcare in 2017.

The details on this truly suck.
Under the Obama-era rule, employers were required to offer birth control coverage in their health insurance plans without a copay. Exceptions were made for churches, for-profit organizations, and charities that raised religious or moral-based objections to covering contraception. Thanks to the mandate, about 55 million women in the U.S. were able to obtain birth control without copayments. But on Friday [October 6], the Health and Human Services Department issued a new regulation widely expanding the types of employers that can raise moral and religious objections, which will make it easier for them to stop offering contraception coverage.
So, to be clear: the university never had to pay directly for birth control. They've never offered it as part of their health insurance coverage. Before the rollback of the ACA mandate, all Notre Dame had to do was sign a two page religious waiver because they're affiliated with the Catholic Church.

The waiver was an ACA accommodation. Once it was signed, Notre Dame students and employees could work directly with a third-party service to include no-cost birth control in their existing university-provided health insurance plans. Paid for by the government.

Notre Dame had previously sued the government over this because Catholicism's Dark Ages mentality says that they can't allow women to have control over their own bodies. A judge threw out the case.

The Trump rollback blocks women from obtaining contraception coverage through a third party.

Birth control coverage for students ends August 14, 2018. Faculty and staff lose their coverage on December 31st. The school will still cover birth control used as a treatment for medical conditions. Which will probably help them when they are inevitably sued for discriminating against women.
posted by zarq at 8:33 AM on November 1, 2017 [76 favorites]

Angus King (I) is saying that Americans need to develop the same sense as when you see a tabloid that "a movie star had a two-headed baby." That we see that just shrug it off. The problem is, no one is invested in that rumor being true. People seeing tweets or ads that condem BLM or Jews or HRC it's just enforcing what they believe.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

Feinstein basically told them shape up or get regulated HARD

honestly I feel like this needs to be a both-and. they lost their shot at having the option of 'or' for this.

I work in a heavily regulated industry and I can tell you that one of our competitive advantages is that we try to regulate ourselves more harshly than outside regulators do. A lot of the things we have to do are also good, prudent business practices that, as a company NOT run by fools, we'd be doing anyways. Some of the payoff comes when some team of regulators come in for audit or exam or something. They don't cause much of a disruption because they already have everything they need and all of our ducks are in a row so they get in and out in a hurry. We pass another thing with flying colors, give ourselves one quick, firm pat on the back and carry on. Another way it pays off is when tighter regulations are enacted and/or some other area is under higher scrutiny, we usually don't have to do anything because our internal standards are already tighter.

Mostly it pays off when the thing that regulation is supposed to guard against happens and then all of our competitors spend time and money running around putting out those fires while we cook marshmallows on the flames and relax.

So yes, absolutely. They should have to shape up because the regulations are coming and they'll have to clean up their act to compete. If I were running a social media company, I'd welcome those regulations as finally giving me cover with shareholders to start spending money on a compliance team. I'd like to say that I'd put my foot down and do spend that cash regulations or not but I don't know that I'd be CEO for very long if that were the case.
posted by VTX at 8:38 AM on November 1, 2017 [52 favorites]

Tabloid sense is ridiculous. This isn't a problem we solve by just neoliberally deciding people need to bootstrap their media consciousness. Tabloids--ostensible news that spews lies and misinformation--should not exist. They should be regulated out of existence.
posted by TypographicalError at 8:39 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Elon Musk is targeted for liberal views and for funding (or his ability to fund) liberal causes.

The fact the represents an existential threat to the petroleum industry probably has something to do with it, too.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:40 AM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

This isn't a problem we solve by just neoliberally deciding people need to bootstrap their media consciousness.

Well we wouldn't want to deny the people the dignity of figuring out whether they are being fooled.
posted by FakeFreyja at 8:41 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

From last July - Trump Russia ~Who is Sam Clovis ~ apart from from being the guy who hired Carter Page and George Papadopoulos
posted by adamvasco at 8:42 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

I work in a heavily regulated industry and I can tell you that one of our competitive advantages is that we try to regulate ourselves more harshly than outside regulators do.

I think that's part of the culture of being a heavily regulated industry, though, right? The Internet was the Wild West and pretty much continues to be, with some modest toe dipping with FTC regulations on bloggers and suchlike. I used to embrace this about the internet, but I quickly became disenchanted with it when Google went public and started being predictably evil.
posted by xyzzy at 8:47 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

The fact the represents an existential threat to the petroleum industry probably has something to do with it, too.

Also SpaceX Falcon rockets are far less expensive than the ones from the aerospace industry contractors. SpaceX has won NASA contracts and pulled the rug out from under them.

I recommend this article to get some insight.

Significantly, the Merlin engines—like roughly 80 percent of the components for Falcon and Dragon, including even the flight computers—are made in-house. That’s something SpaceX didn’t originally set out to do, but was driven to by suppliers’ high prices. Mueller recalls asking a vendor for an estimate on a particular engine valve. “They came back [requesting] like a year and a half in development and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just way out of whack. And we’re like, ‘No, we need it by this summer, for much, much less money.’ They go, ‘Good luck with that,’ and kind of smirked and left.” Mueller’s people made the valve themselves, and by summer they had qualified it for use with cryogenic propellants.

“That vendor, they iced us for a couple of months,” Mueller says, “and then they called us back: ‘Hey, we’re willing to do that valve. You guys want to talk about it?’ And we’re like, ‘No, we’re done.’ He goes, ‘What do you mean you’re done?’ ‘We qualified it. We’re done.’ And there was just silence at the end of the line. They were in shock.” That scenario has been repeated to the point where, Mueller says, “we passionately avoid space vendors.”

posted by Fleebnork at 8:48 AM on November 1, 2017 [64 favorites]

Tabloids--ostensible news that spews lies and misinformation--should not exist. They should be regulated out of existence.

Wow I find that statement terrifying. Who decides what's a tabloid, and by what mechanism? You? The government? A panel of other journalists? Some non-aligned NGO? What exactly is the mechanism people picture regulating the new yellow journalism? The FCC? Seriously I'm at a loss here.

I am totally horrified that people believe tabloids, and drunk racist uncles forward email chains, and white nationalists share Pepe memes, but also pretty horrified with the increasing comfort on multiple sides of the political spectrum with attacking the free press, however shitty and horrid that press may be.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

AND YET.... Twitter et al. cannot manage to expel people who dox and terrify all but white men, even with links and screenshots of offending accounts.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

$DIETY Tom Cotton is an ass.
posted by jferg at 8:55 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Angus King (I) is saying that Americans need to develop the same sense as when you see a tabloid that "a movie star had a two-headed baby." That we see that just shrug it off.

Everyone will not just
If your solution to some problem relies on “If everyone would just…” then you do not have a solution. Everyone is not going to just. At not time in the history of the universe has everyone just, and they’re not going to start now.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:55 AM on November 1, 2017 [120 favorites]

I think that's part of the culture of being a heavily regulated industry, though, right?

You would think that, wouldn't you? Frankly it frightens me to hear how the programs work at other companies. They're not being sinister or anything they just don't put as much emphasis and don't direct as many resources at it.

I think part of it is that people get into the industry and understand that there is a higher level of regulation that they'll have to deal with. But on a scale of 1-10, they're used to dealing with a 3 so they step it up to a 6 and think they're ahead of the game when really if they want their company to remain a going concern they need to decide if they're okay with some regulatory risk and only step it up to a 9 or play it safe and pump it up to 10.

I like to think the dial at my company goes up to 11.
posted by VTX at 8:59 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

it's too bad there's no possible way to establish any criteria to differentiate tabloids about bat-human baby hybrids and a concerted effort by a hostile foreign power to buy millions of dollars of ad shares to run election-influencing propaganda
posted by Tevin at 8:59 AM on November 1, 2017 [32 favorites]

Mueller recalls asking a vendor for an estimate on a particular engine valve. “They came back [requesting] like a year and a half in development and hundreds of thousands of dollars. Just way out of whack. And we’re like, ‘No, we need it by this summer, for much, much less money.’ They go, ‘Good luck with that,’ and kind of smirked and left.” Mueller’s people made the valve themselves, and by summer they had qualified it for use with cryogenic propellants.

Hmm. I work for a valve vendor. one that would probably be a good candidate for this sort of thing. Hadn't heard this story, but then again I probably wouldn't.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 9:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

I think a free press (as in Reagan level completely unregulated) is one of the stupidest things the US ever did to itself, but I understand that this is an unpopular opinion.
posted by TypographicalError at 9:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

> If your solution to some problem relies on “If everyone would just…” then you do not have a solution. Everyone is not going to just. At no time in the history of the universe has everyone just, and they’re not going to start now.

Now there's a succinct response to so, so many armchair analyses, including the ones in this very thread. Fantastic.
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:08 AM on November 1, 2017 [25 favorites]

Ultimately we need democratic reform, not (just) stricter rules on yellow journalism.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:08 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

~~free~~ corporate press
posted by OverlappingElvis at 9:09 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Give me Bat Boy or give me death!
posted by Room 641-A at 9:11 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

What exactly is the mechanism people picture regulating the new yellow journalism? The FCC?

THIS is a debate I think is worth having!

I think the answer is the same mechanisms that regulated the old yellow journalism, only more so. The Federal Trade Commission was created in 1914. It is supposed to enforce truth-in-advertising laws. I think that is partly a response to the previous era of "snake oil" sales -- the era where it was literal snake oil being marketed.

The Federal Communications Comission was created in 1934... It is is intended to serve "the purpose of the national defense" among other things.

The Federal Election Comission was created in 1975 to enforce the Federal Election Campaign Act. The FEC "to enforce the provisions of the law such as the limits and prohibitions on contributions, and to oversee the public funding of Presidential elections."

The solutions we have come up with in the past have been deemed constitutional by our courts, and they are still constitutional today. None of the above violates the first amendment.

We have these entities because we already had The Newspaper Wars ("They built enormous circulations for their newspapers in the big cities, with celebrity columnists, aggressive sports coverage, and sensationalist news." "the circulation of their newspapers, grew subsequently through their sensationalistic coverage of the Spanish-American War.") And we already had a propaganda war exploiting new media -- the radio before and during WWII. (Roosevelt fought back by producing a ton of propaganda of his own.)

All this has happened before, and it will happen again, I expect. But we have somehow forgotten that propaganda, like other advertising (false or true), WORKS, and false propaganda is uniquely a threat to democracies. I think we need to give those agencies teeth.

I also think Obama should sue Trump for libel over the whole "birther" thing -- the libel laws are another way to hold media companies accountable for truth without violating free speech protections.

I am also in favor of forming news media trade associations by which media can accredit each others' work and hold each other accountable, and consumer advocacy groups along the lines of "Consumer Reports" but for news.

But I would love to hear more ideas, because I think this is an urgent problem.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [84 favorites]

A) apply a "fake news" label upon one bubble's media feed, where the "fakeness" is derived largely from the input from the other bubble. (let the largest bubble win?)

Which leaves the smaller bubble howling about censorship and Orwellianism, and reduces truth to an American Idolesque vote-for-what-the-truth-is fracas.

B) remove/label anything that either bubble defines as "fake" from all. (the pablum solution)

Which leaves nothing but cat videos.

Because Facebook et al. are going to say "we're a common carrier, we don't have teams of experts on call to review everybody's grandpa's post on an ironclad theoretical Truth-O-Meter, nor do we know for sure what's true and what's opinion and what's bullshit anyway, and if we do censor Topic X it makes it seem like we're declaring any topic we don't censor to be true." And there would be some validity to that.

Also what aspersioncast said about a dozen comments upthread. The problem is one of scale and ubiquity as much as veracity.
posted by delfin at 9:17 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Bat Boy

Bat Child, please
posted by Existential Dread at 9:17 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Everyone is not going to just.

Especially when so many times the proposed "just" is "just do the thing I would never, ever myself just do in the same situation."
posted by Rykey at 9:21 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Facebook can't pull it;s common carrier shit and it's algorithm shit. Ditto Twitter. Even if FB or Twitter are not tweaking the algorithm themselves to present a certain view of the world the people who are gaming it sure as hell are.

(In the good old days those people would be spammers, now its nazis, Russian inteligence and Cambridge Analytica, to the degree that those things are seperate)
posted by Artw at 9:22 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Fine, let's just return to the Equal Time Rule.
posted by mikelieman at 9:27 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Because in business, particularly business that is engaging in grey or outright illegal activities, stored data is data you're responsible for.

...and when you connect this to the fact that Facebook is just a very large advertisement delivery vector, and the fact that internet ads are scammy, scummy, frequently grey-area or outright illegal, their refusal to do anything to stop it makes more sense.

What exactly is the mechanism people picture regulating the new yellow journalism? The FCC?

(1) Regulator doesn't matter, but apply existing restrictions on foreign electoral activity to social media. If it's paid content of any sort, you have to make sure it's either not political or that the purchaser is legally allowed to engage in US electoral activity. Impose a fine of $0.01 for the first transmission-or-impression violating the law, $0.02 for the second, $0.04 for the third, etc

(2) Whoever owns the url at the top of the browser is legally responsible for all content they provide and all paid content that appears on the page or in new pages generated automatically by the page. Your ad network served malware? Something defamatory? It's your ass.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:28 AM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

RN Twitter seems to be engaged in some kind of work-to-rule where if enough nazis report some minor infraction of politeness you;re out but ifthey call for genicide obliquely it's okay
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Showdown in Shelbyville: How old school white nationalists failed to deliver in Tennessee
posted by Fleebnork at 9:32 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

The FARA act is another one of those useful laws that are surprisingly pertinent to the current propaganda problem. The fact that it was passed in 1938 is, I think, particularly informative as to the context in which these debates take place.
posted by MrVisible at 9:35 AM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

Awaiting Trump's coal comeback, miners reject retraining
Valerie Volcovici - Reuters

Coal miners are resisting retraining without ready jobs from new industries, but new companies are unlikely to move here without a trained workforce. The stalled diversification push leaves some of the nation’s poorest areas with no clear path to prosperity.

posted by soren_lorensen at 9:39 AM on November 1, 2017 [31 favorites]

The fact the represents an existential threat to the petroleum industry probably has something to do with it, too.

I would argue this is accurate in general but not specifics. The battery car (and everything else) industry isn't an existential threat in the sense that it has the potential to end the petroleum industry. That industry is going to end and knows its going to end. It is a threat to how it ends, or how quickly it ends, and how abrupt and painful the transition is for the petroleum companies. The oil business wants to coast gently into infirm old age and eventual quiet death. It is fighting not the death, but being put on the ice floe and shoved out to sea where it can't keep skimming pennies and skunking up the shared air.

Which is not to go all "that's not pink, it's pale fuscia" on things, but I think it matters when you consider what sorts of actions petroleum might take. They're not just defending existence, they're trying to preserve their ability to make a run on the table in the short term.

And we’re like, ‘No, we need it by this summer, for much, much less money.’ They go, ‘Good luck with that,’ and kind of smirked and left.” Mueller’s people made the valve themselves, and by summer they had qualified it for use with cryogenic propellants.

These stories are appealing to anyone who has ever gotten a big money quote for something that seems simple or presents visually as a small job, but I really dislike them both as a senior professional in an industry (not that one) and as someone who is worried about our culture's war on expertise.

Those firms cost what they cost and take the time they take only in small part because of the complexity of that one exact task. Similarly, when you hire me to code something up you are only paying in small part for the actual code I write. The large sum you pay a manufacturer of that widget is more about the expertise they bring to the table in knowing what questions to ask about what this thing is for, the accumulated knowledge of all the shit that doesn't work or doesn't work as well in circumstance X, the knowledge they have about the industry's whole regulatory landscape from what it is right now to what it used to be to what maybe it's going to be in the future, the ways this might need to be done now for your 3 widgets so that you'll be able to make 3M of them down the road, etc on and on forever. And if the space industry is in any way like the aeronautics industry, some of that money is surely to cover the fact that they might get sued when you blow your ass up and kill someone even if it happens dozens of years later.

It may be that in this story doing it more directly was indeed the right thing to do. Certainly an in-house endeavor means you don't pay for another firm covering its lawsuit liability. Of course any other company wants to make its own profits, and their schedules will almost certainly be longer than the one you set when you can yell questions across the office and don't have to negotiate cost change controls every time you tweak things. And sure, there may well be things that Space X doesn't give a toss about that are going to be part of the cultural biases in a more general firm and they might just be stodgy because space has been a way different industry for a long time.

But boy does it stick in my craw when the upshot is hurfdurf man did we show em how we disrupt, yo.
posted by phearlez at 9:40 AM on November 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

“Mind Jouney 9 – The Crisis of White Identity” [Caution: Autoplaying Music]—Kalle Lasn, Adbusters No. 133
posted by ob1quixote at 9:41 AM on November 1, 2017

Always remember that all of the internet companies censor specific content in Germany and accept it as a cost of business in that country. They already know how to detect and remove nazi propaganda.

They already have the tech and infrastructure. They just don't have the incentive.
posted by srboisvert at 9:43 AM on November 1, 2017 [104 favorites]

Re: bubbles, if you're living on the surface of a sphere, and you pull yourself into a bubble on the surface, the world looks the same to people outside your bubble as it does to you, in that the boundaries of the bubble surround both you and them. As the bubble expands, you reach a point where half the world is in the bubble and half out. Each bubble is accusing the other of being in a bubble, and the accusation looks legit to both sides. But it's the group that formed the bubble in the first place who are really in the bubble, because they created the bubbling. They enforce and maintain that boundary and the only solution is for them to abandon the boundary. In the US, they ain't gonna do it, because it would be the end of them.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:44 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

(In the good old days those people would be spammers, now its nazis, Russian inteligence and Cambridge Analytica, to the degree that those things are seperate)

Yeah that's the thing. We had the whole "free speech vs spam" argument a few decades ago, and the "burn the spammers with a flamethrower" side won. Declaring forms of content to be harmful to the platform and taking aggressive action to remove it isn't new territory for the internet.

But I do think there's a real question lurking behind Tom Cotton's Tom Cottoning, and I'll borrow it from Mike Isaac: "This is a key distinction for all the tech companies -- if you position your platform as globalist then what allegiance do you have to USA?" Alternatively: "That said, I find it difficult for a tech company to position itself as a stateless platform while also largely adhering to Western value structures. Does Twitter block CNN from Russia if Russia lodges a similar election interference complaint?"

We balk at YouTube featuring RT content on the homepage, but wouldn't think twice if it was BBC. Sure, only one of those platforms is controlled by a homicidal leader determined to spread racial and religious animosity in the United States and to influence our elections (insert some snark here about why the BBC sucks if you want, sure), and that's a crucial distinction. And that's the infuriating thing about how these companies insist they are technology companies and not media companies.

Deciding to feature and promote RT content is an editorial decision. Facebook's algorithms make a mind-boggling number of editorial decisions when it decides whether to show you a photo of your friend's cat or a post that tries to trick people into voting on the wrong day. These decisions are never neutral, but the companies like to talk about them as if they are. We've invented the concept of "the algorithm" or "the AI" as a blame-shifting device in ways we'd never accept when talking about the human brain. No jury ought to accept "I don't know. I see a black person and my brain just won't let me hire them" as a defense against employment discrimination, but we're told to accept "that's the way the algorithm works" when it behaves in a biased or problematic way.

Something defamatory? It's your ass.

So you want MetaFilter to be liable, up to potentially millions of dollars, for defamation in anything any of us comment here?
posted by zachlipton at 9:48 AM on November 1, 2017 [30 favorites]

Kalle Lasn, Adbusters No. 133

I'm sorry but I'm not inclined to take anything Lasn says at this point particularly seriously. From the very beginning, Adbusters' whole raison d'etre was "culture jamming," i.e. encouraging its audience to develop a memetic immune system that would help it resist psychic manipulation. And we see how spectacularly successful that effort has been.

I've often enough focused all of my rhetorical efforts on the very wrongest target, by the way, to know exactly what it looks like. It's no crime if Lasn missed the forest for the trees; so many of us did. But it doesn't make me particularly apt to look to him for insight in these matters.
posted by adamgreenfield at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

RN Twitter seems to be engaged in some kind of work-to-rule where if enough nazis report some minor infraction of politeness you;re out but ifthey call for genicide obliquely it's okay

It doesn't need to be particularly oblique. Declaring "Hitler was right" and literally tweeting the text of Mein Kampf while ranting about a Jewish problem is just fine by them apparently.
posted by zachlipton at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

BBC is an arms-length entity though and isn't really comparable to RT?

I'd like the media landscape to be a healthy mix of private, non-profit and yes, publicly funded entities. I think having a mixture of different kinds of funding will make the field in general more healthy.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Deciding to feature and promote RT content is an editorial decision. Facebook's algorithms make a mind-boggling number of editorial decisions

QFT.

If their algorithms are making bad editorial decisions they need to improve their algorithms, or else stop letting algorithms make editorial decisions. Saying they are not responsible for those decisions because they decided to leave them up to an algorithm they wrote is an idiotic argument, in my opinion.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:52 AM on November 1, 2017 [55 favorites]

This is sadly [real]: Trump, Hill leaders disagree on name for upcoming tax reform bill [cw: autoplaying video with SHS spouting nonsense]

President Donald Trump has told senior congressional leadership that he wants to name the forthcoming tax reform bill the “The Cut Cut Cut Act,” a senior administration official tells ABC News.

Less than 24 hours before the bill is slated to be revealed, the name of the bill has still not been settled and there is still dispute over the name, according to a senior congressional aide and a senior White House official. The sources said it’s been decided that the Ways and Means Committee will have the final say over the name.
...
Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

posted by zachlipton at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2017 [87 favorites]

But boy does it stick in my craw when the upshot is hurfdurf man did we show em how we disrupt, yo.

Ok, but did you read the article? It seems like you're reacting to just the bit that I quoted here.

The article talks about things like complexity of rocket design, the profits baked in by old school aerospace vendors, and the simplification of designs that SpaceX did to make things less costly.

The bloat is real, which is why SpaceX is winning NASA contracts. The big aerospace companies really don't like this.
posted by Fleebnork at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

T.D. Strange: Facebook is not a technology company, they're a media conglomerate that denies any and all responsibilities of being a media conglomerate.

A justifiably harsh critique of FB from NPR's Aarti Shahani:

You know, this is a really key point. Mark Zuckerberg maintains he's running a tech company, not a media company. And, you know, what I compare it to, at least in my own mind, is it's like a guy who builds a new, enormous office building that's got some whiz-bangy (ph) technology. And he says the rules that apply to regular builders, they don't apply to him. Then when a fire breaks out, because he didn't follow some old building code, he says, hey, it's not my fault. I didn't light the match.

Facebook transitioned from a technology company to a media company the moment the started selling ad space, and they doubled down when they integrated a news feed.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [67 favorites]

In somewhat related conservative incompetence and implosion news the Tories in the British Parliament are reeling after an allegedly internally compiled list of creeps and incidents used by the party whips to 'encourage party support' has leaked.

Conservative 'dirty dossier': List alleging sexual impropriety naming ministers and party members spreads across social media
posted by srboisvert at 9:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

Hey, aside from the rancid stench of hyper-privilege and arrogance in that tweet from Cheeto Mussolini Jr. showing his daughter on Halloween?

Look at that bucket. That's hardly a haul at all. Even if that's after he allegedly took away half of her haul, that picture still implies he took her trick-or-treating for all of five minutes.

Christ, what an asshole.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

> Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

This itself is a compromise from his original demand that every piece of legislation be named the "Bing Bing Bing Act".

I'm beginning to get the impression that the man our country elected as President is not very bright.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:58 AM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

Does Twitter block CNN from Russia if Russia lodges a similar election interference complaint?

They may need to, if they want to do business in Russia.

Making editorial decisions about what content to serve in the US is part of the cost of being a media company in the US. If Nazi propaganda is not actually illegal (which may depend on what kind of violence it's advocating, and how abstract that is), then the hearings should at least get Twitter and Facebook representatives on record answering the question, "is literal Nazi propaganda a violation of your TOS, or is it acceptable on your platform?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:59 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

I... is ABC News a satirical site now? I... what.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:00 AM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

Look at that bucket.

My fave of the many replies was that it's telling that his idea of work is walking around with a bucket having people give you stuff.
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on November 1, 2017 [44 favorites]

Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

Seriously? Three hard C sounds in a row at the beginnings of words? He's just trolling, now.
posted by gurple at 10:01 AM on November 1, 2017 [28 favorites]

Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

I can see what happens next: the committee names it the "American Improvements Tax Act" or whatever, and the president goes on TV to say, "they gave it some bogus name, improvements something, but we all know what it really is - the Cut Cut Cut Act. That's it's real name. Never mind what's on the papers."
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:02 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

In his head he's spelling cut with a K.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:02 AM on November 1, 2017 [50 favorites]

Don Pepino: "A reliable implementation of 'Is this a political ad from a foreign source?' would be quite hard to set up." Then no political ads on facebook. Problem solved, no spreadsheets or dot connection required.

In the case of Russia, they've been skirting the issue since the beginning by promoting politics-adjacent topics, and "sought to stoke racial, religious or other social and political tensions." Furthermore,

Sources have said the Russian-backed ads even took both sides of contentious issues, like Black Lives Matter or gun control, in a bid to intensify public debate and foment discord. Sources speaking with Recode, along with a series of reports from other outlets like CNN, have suggested these ads and other forms of Russia-supplied content explicitly targeted crucial election swing states.

Tony Romm and Kurt Wagner for Recode, Oct. 23, 2017
posted by filthy light thief at 10:03 AM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

Man, the writers are really out of ideas now. That's just lazy; at least make it a funny acronym or something like the Cutting Unlikeable Levies and Taxes Act or something.
posted by nubs at 10:03 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don't think calling for slightly more regulation really qualifies as 'attacking' the free press in the same way the Republican party has been doing.

I don't either, but the comment I was responding to said "tabloids should be regulated out of existence," which to me sounds a lot more like the Republican talking point than "gosh maybe controls on this sorta thing should be a little more regulated."
posted by aspersioncast at 10:05 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Providing some resolution on older news stories: The Navy has released its findings in the two collisions involving the USS Fitzgerald and the USS McCain earlier this year. In news that should shock no one who knows how these things work, the Navy has found massive failures on the part of the commands and the bridge crews.

In the case of Fitzgerald, the officer of the deck failed to notify the ship’s captain that the destroyer was closing with the Crystal despite standing orders requiring it. On McCain, the captain was present on the bridge the whole time.

Both ships lost track of their situations completely, said Capt. Rick Hoffman, a retired cruiser captain who reviewed the documents for Defense News.

I just want to say, because I'm really not being sarcastic about this not being a shock: ultimately ships like that are driven by human beings and standard practice is to have plenty of eyeballs actively watching where the ships are going. There's no "computer hacking" that could explain these collisions. That's for movies. In real life stuff doesn't work like that.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [30 favorites]

These decisions are never neutral, but the companies like to talk about them as if they are. We've invented the concept of "the algorithm" or "the AI" as a blame-shifting device in ways we'd never accept when talking about the human brain. No jury ought to accept "I don't know. I see a black person and my brain just won't let me hire them" as a defense against employment discrimination, but we're told to accept "that's the way the algorithm works" when it behaves in a biased or problematic way.

this all day. this forever. hire a fleet of pilots to write this in the sky. carve it into cliffsides.
posted by halation at 10:06 AM on November 1, 2017 [40 favorites]

The Cut Cut Cut Act.

Come on, Trump's just a big Space Ghost fan!

I'm a kniiiiiiiife

Knifin aroouuuuunnnd

cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut cut
posted by Existential Dread at 10:09 AM on November 1, 2017 [36 favorites]

Jeremy White, Independent: Trump says he'll consider sending New York terror suspect to Guantanamo

“I would certainly consider that”, Mr Trump said in response to a reporter's question. “Send him to Gitmo”.
[...]
Echoing Mr Trump's idea was Sen John McCain, a Republican hawk who has clashed with Mr Trump over foreign policy but agreed on the proper fate for the assailant.

“Take him to Guantanamo“, Mr McCain told reporters.

It's no surprise that Trump is giddy at the idea of sending people to concentration camps but this is a good reminder that McCain is not your friend. So-called "decent" elected Republicans are only the enemies of your enemy.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:10 AM on November 1, 2017 [44 favorites]

...and which is why GTMO hasn't been closed. Gotta preserve your bogeymen.
posted by rhizome at 10:11 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

Maybe he's a bigger fan of !!! (Chk Chk Chk) than I thought?

Meanwhile, here's Christopher Borsella, your daily angry white supremacist dick-waving sex case.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:11 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

what kind of violence it's advocating

By the way a lot of those Russian linked account were literally inciting violence and that is another form of speech that the courts have ruled is not protected by the first amendment. Yet Facebook did nothing to stop it.

I think we should also try to learn all we can from Finland, which is near the front lines of Russia's hybrid warfare. Just as this is not a problem which is entirely new in 2017, it is also not at all a problem which is unique to the US. We badly need some historical and geographical perspective, so that we are not blindsided again.

Putin's goal is to smash “the Anglo-Saxon monopoly on the information stream.” Russian Chief of the General Staff Valery V. Gerasimov argued that “non-military means,” including “new information technologies,” have eclipsed traditional weaponry in their strategic importance. “In the 21st century we have seen a tendency toward blurring the lines between the states of war and peace,” he wrote. "The role of non-military means of achieving political and strategic goals has grown, and, in many cases, they have exceeded the power of force of weapons in their effectiveness.”

This is part of how they were able to successfully invade Ukraine. So when Ukraine warns us we should listen, and demand more than facile answers from tech billionaires.

This is not just a philosophical discussion. This is a real and immediate and continuing threat.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:14 AM on November 1, 2017 [73 favorites]

Something concerte that the FTC and DOJ can do right now, block every future merger or aquisition by Facebook, Google or Twitter. All of them, regardless of industry or merit. Until they comply with minimal oversight. We already have the institutions in place to enforce disclosure and compliance, we should remember how to use them.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:16 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

Send him to GTMO!!!!?!!?

Cripes, he committed the crime in NYC. There are no jurisdictional issues with this. No fuzzy illegal combatant caught on the battlefield stuff. He’s a murderer clean and simple.

Stop trying to make everything worse alla time you dim wittted ghoul.
posted by notyou at 10:16 AM on November 1, 2017 [60 favorites]

Of course these assholes are going to use what happened yesterday as an excuse to advance the anti-immigration agenda. Giving ISIS all the propaganda they need to draw more people to their side.

And the sickest thing is you KNOW they were waiting for this sort of thing, an isis-inspired attack. Like the thought this event made some of the WH happy is just too much, how evil these people are. And the irony being the innocent foreign lives that were lost yesterday count amongst the 99.99999999^10% of people here who don't commit terrorist attacks. Fuck this administration so hard for ruining anything decent about this country
posted by andruwjones26 at 10:17 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Yeah. He has Constitutional rights.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:17 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Something you personally can do to fight propaganda right now -- join the Sleeping Giants.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:18 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Meanwhile, here's Christopher Borsella, your daily angry white supremacist dick-waving sex case.

Oh god, is he supposed to be dapper? Because he looks like an extra in a community theater production of Oliver!, aside from the N*SYNC inspired facial hair.

White supremacists: failsons all the way down.
posted by palomar at 10:19 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Letter from Cory Booker the FTC about mergers. Anti-monopoly stuff expected to figure more prominently in Dem messaging in 2018/2020, so this is of interest.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:21 AM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

The Navy has released its findings in the two collisions involving the USS Fitzgerald and the USS McCain earlier this year.

As usual, National Treasure(and retired Navy Vet) Jim Wright is on it
posted by Twain Device at 10:22 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

But boy does it stick in my craw when the upshot is hurfdurf man did we show em how we disrupt, yo.
Ok, but did you read the article? It seems like you're reacting to just the bit that I quoted here.

Yeah. And I was; my reaction was mostly to the sorts of smug ways the techbro culture talks about stuff (and ignores larger cultural and legal realities), not the question of how calcified or not the space business is. I think the article does a good job of talking about some of the legit reasons some of these prices are inflated, though it does a lot of typical upshot-company praise and taking of their assertions at face value you always get in these sort of new hotness profiles. It address many of these things I mention but it does it no sooner than the back-half of the article and it always gives the Muskovites the final word on pooh-poohing that stuff.

I could yap about this forever but a five year old article is a huge derail beyond the ways it relates to the mindset of these folks in the tech business. And, I guess, the way the media breathlessly reports this stuff. You can see it in this article too, beyond the deference they give to Musk et all - the hey we did this valve for a tenth of the price stuff gets earlier billing than the fact that when the rubber hits the road they're doing it for 1/3 the NASA price.

That difference in spread is meaningful because it means you can do this stuff in house and replace outside company expertise but you're gonna pay for that savings with other work and costs. Pertinent to the topic at hand, we could culturally do with a lot more skepticism whenever some disruptor comes in and upends the table with claims of suddenly making shit cheaper and better because they're so gosh-darn brilliant and unencumbered by those existing things.

A lot of those things they upend and decide they're not gonna pay for is knowledge of their place in the world and vulnerabilities, both their own and the cultures. This Facebook thing is a great example - nobody selling ads for tv would have failed to think about the regulatory and reporting framework for political advertisement. But the tech industry did what it always does and barreled into something with absolute surety they didn't need to know anything more than they already did and if they don't know it that's because it's irrelevant bullshit only olds care about.

I am endlessly grateful that 'my people' haven't decided to address nuclear waste storage as yet, because we would surely find ourselves a dozen years down the road with free rads all over the place and some New Economy Web 2.0 Disruptor Dumbass Phrase of the Year douchecanoe saying well golly how could we have known about this aspect of the industry that folks actually figured out back at White Sands, if only they'd bothered to do the reading.
posted by phearlez at 10:26 AM on November 1, 2017 [28 favorites]

Mitchell and Kleindienst are the only two Attorneys General ever charged and convicted of crimes, I believe (both for Watergate), so I know it *can* be done, but it still makes my head hurt to imagine how that would even play out in real time.

I'm also awfully suspicious that Sessions might already have been pressured into working with the FBI, because that's the only way I can make sense of so many of his statements and actions over the past few months, as well as the way Congress seems to be just fine with him perjuring himself so many times.

Congress other than Franken, anyway.
posted by rokusan at 10:29 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Of course these assholes are going to use what happened yesterday as an excuse to advance the anti-immigration agenda.

To put this in perspective: eight people died yesterday in NYC due to "terrorism" while, statistically, 45 people died yesterday in NYC due to heart disease, 35 died from cancer, and 4 from drug overdoses; one pedestrian or bicyclist is killed in a "traffic crash" in NYC roughly every other day.
posted by melissasaurus at 10:29 AM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

Jesus Christ. Was "Cutty McTaxface" taken?
posted by Daily Alice at 10:30 AM on November 1, 2017 [68 favorites]

And 60 people died while 600 more were injured in Vegas, but the response was a bit different.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:32 AM on November 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

TPM: House leaders initially tasked Trump with naming the bill, but both House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) and House Ways and Means chairman Kevin Brady (R-TX) have both pushed back against the bill name favored by Trump, according to ABC News. Despite this pushback, Trump still wants to name the legislation “The Cut Cut Cut Act,” per ABC News.

So they tried to give him a little bit of ownership in a simple way that he couldn't fuck up.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:35 AM on November 1, 2017 [56 favorites]

Clearly the only meaningful response to "The Cut Cut Cut Act" is ishouldbuyaboat.jpg.
posted by xyzzy at 10:37 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Too bad he didn't go with the Cut Cut Cut Program for adding trollery.
posted by Justinian at 10:38 AM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

House leaders initially tasked Trump with naming the bill,

Why does everybody keep assuming that he knows how to do his job?
posted by Melismata at 10:39 AM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

The Cut Cut Cut Act

now im picturing trump as tuco from breaking bad
posted by entropicamericana at 10:42 AM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

Dammit, missed opportunity for some nice licensing income!

The CutCo® Cut Cut Cut Act, presented by TOPS Tactical Knives and H&R Block
posted by Existential Dread at 10:42 AM on November 1, 2017

Stop what you’re doing and read the Vanity Fair report on the aftermath of Muellerween. Trump blaming Jared. Everyone thinks impeachment is on the table. Gary Cohn and Dina Powell run out of the room if anyone mentions Russia. Bannon is still taking to Trump constantly and apparently trying to takeover the legal team.

It’s glorious.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:46 AM on November 1, 2017 [73 favorites]

I'm sort of surprised they didn't just roll with it. It's not that much dumber than what a lot of other shit gets named.
posted by phearlez at 10:47 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

A coworker of mine was relieved that at least it wasn't called the Kut Kut Kut Act.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:47 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

The Cut Cut Cut Act. I... I finally got nothin'. He has reached a level of derpitude that has actually stunned me. This is legally changing his name to "Honest Guy Better Than Crooked Hillary Trump" levels of dopey.
posted by delfin at 10:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

I think assigning Trump the job of naming the bill is assuming he doesn’t know what he is doing. So give the senile idiot a pointless task he thinks is important (preferably one he can’t fuck up) so he doesn’t make a mess elsewhere.
posted by nat at 10:51 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

You know who else appears if you repeat their name three times.....
posted by zarq at 10:51 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Ahhh Jared's face in that VF cover pic is a wondrous Muellerween gift.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:52 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

I think it's supposed to be "The Cut Cut, Cut Cut" Act

...because they want to take those taxes...

...and place them in their pockets on the taxpayers' dime...

...rights drown, we all will die
posted by lazaruslong at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2017

It's not that much dumber than what a lot of other shit gets named.

scooby-doo-confused-growl.mp3

I mean I'm the first to hate on the cutsey acronyms that our politicians so dearly love, but "cut cut cut act" has got to be a new low in the history of legislative titling.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

I imagine him at the naming ceremony (if there is such a thing) and he wants a prop to make it all look more dramatic, so someone hands him a pair of those safety scissors with the rounded tips that they give kids and says "have at it boss!, cut cut cut!"
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:53 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

The GOP’s best bet is actually to let the fucker name it Cut Cut Cut if that’s what he wants. It might give Trump the incentive to actually defend the thing when the bill inevitably gets mired in its own idiocy.

Which is to say, get ready to harp on this nonsense being KKK-adjacent.
posted by lydhre at 10:54 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

I think the Cut Cut Cut thing is as close as Trump could get to a cutesy acronym. He's not witty or clever enough to come up with one and is telling himself that Cut Cut Cut is just as good.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:56 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Which is to say, get ready to harp on this nonsense being KKK-adjacent.

Now, you’re talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you’re talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is, blacks get hurt worse than whites.… “We want to cut this,” is much more abstract than even the busing thing, uh, and a hell of a lot more abstract than “N----r, n----r.”

posted by Talez at 10:56 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Looks like Glenn Kessler at the WashPost is about to be on the President's "Big (The Biggest, The Best) List of Mean Mean Mean Journalists."

President Trump’s tax cut: Not ‘the biggest’ in U.S. history: More than 20 times since he became president, President Trump has claimed that the tax plan under consideration in Congress was the largest tax cut in the history of the United States. He made this claim even before many details were set, but from the beginning it was nonsense. It was so easily debunked that we just tossed it in our ongoing database of false and misleading Trump claims, rather than do a full-fledged fact check.

On occasion, the White House has suggested Trump is talking only about the corporate-tax component of the tax plan. But that’s never how the president himself frames it. So we have to examine his claim as he states it.

Now that the House and Senate have approved the parameters of the tax cut –$1.5 trillion over 10 years — we have numbers we can evaluate. So, for the record, here’s how his plan stacks up — assuming it actually gets passed into law.

posted by zarq at 10:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

phearlez But boy does it stick in my craw when the upshot is hurfdurf man did we show em how we disrupt, yo.

I totally get what you're saying here, and I largely agree. But I can't completely agree.

Because, regrettably, the hurfdurf disruptors really do have a point sometimes. Often their solutions are bad, or far too Randian and greedhead stupid, but sometimes what they point out as stupid, bloated, badly done, crap is in fact stupid, bloated, badly done crap.

I loathe the predatory business models of Uber. But you know what? The taxi system, especially in places like NYC with its stupid fucking medallion setup, really was bloated, awful, and generally in dire need of a shakeup if not an outright replacement.

And I've seen the other side of things even from computer businesses. Big player assholes who have their position enshrined, everyone does things their way because they're IBM/MicroSoft/Apple/AT&T/whatever, and when you go to them with a problem they quote some absurdly over priced crap with a promised delivery way past the point where you need it. And if you point out that the price is too high and the promised delivery not near fast enough they shrug and walk out.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, because you're right that there is such a thing as institutional wisdom and experience, and the techbro fuckwits who infest Silicon Valley are often deeply, catastrophically, wrong about the difficulty of tasks. But at the same time, the asshole has a point on occasion. And it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the aerospace industry, long used to working on cost plus unlimited government contracts with no real due date were bloated, inefficient, and smug in addition to being filled with experience and institutional wisdom.

Unfortunately we won't find out which was the case with SpaceX until they've launched enough rockets to see what their failure rate is....
posted by sotonohito at 10:59 AM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

“You Can’t Go Any Lower”: Inside the West Wing, Trump Is Apoplectic as Allies Fear Impeachment

If 2016-2017 has taught us anything, it should be that there is no such thing as rock bottom. Things can always go lower.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:00 AM on November 1, 2017 [44 favorites]

From VF: Trump’s lawyer Ty Cobb has been advocating the view that playing ball will lead to a quick resolution

he would
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:00 AM on November 1, 2017 [67 favorites]

Death by ~~a thousand~~ three cuts.
posted by aspersioncast at 11:03 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

It sounds to me like Republicans gave Trump the job of naming the bill (the sort of job one would give a small child) because they thought that was the one thing he couldn't screw up…

… and he did.
posted by Soliloquy at 11:04 AM on November 1, 2017 [26 favorites]

soren_lorensen Awaiting Trump's coal comeback, miners reject retraining

I find my empathy and desire to spend large quantities of money helping those people fading with every new thing I learn about them.
posted by sotonohito at 11:04 AM on November 1, 2017 [16 favorites]

Erin Gloria Ryan‏ (Twitter: @morninggloria) trump wants to call the tax bill "cuts! cuts! cuts!" which sounds like a neon sign outside a fiscal strip club
posted by zarq at 11:04 AM on November 1, 2017 [40 favorites]

“You Can’t Go Any Lower”: Inside the West Wing, Trump Is Apoplectic as Allies Fear Impeachment

Two weeks ago, according to a source, Bannon did a spitball analysis of the Cabinet to see which members would remain loyal to Trump in the event the 25th Amendment were invoked, thereby triggering a vote to remove the president from office. Bannon recently told people he’s not sure if Trump would survive such a vote. “One thing Steve wants Trump to do is take this more seriously,” the Bannon confidant told me. “Stop joking around. Stop tweeting.”

O_o
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:04 AM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

Good VF article, especially the quote above. Pardon my ignorance, but why is Bannon still calling all the shots, exactly?
posted by Melismata at 11:07 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

The Cut Cut Cut Act

If this thing passes (yeesh), I actually think it's a great name: it brands all the problems it's gonna cause, right out of the gate, with an unforgettable name that points right at Trump and the Congress who passed it.

"Why didn't my taxes go down like they promised?"
"Cut cut cut!"

"Why did my parents lose their health care?"
"Cut cut cut!"

"Why'd that bridge on the interstate crumble to pieces?"
"Cut cut cut!"

I say keep it, and use it a lot.
posted by Rykey at 11:07 AM on November 1, 2017 [36 favorites]

Why the hell is anybody even still taking the idea of a dude under investigation for being on the payroll of a foreign power, with a history of tax evasion and likely money laundering charges forthcoming, being in charge of overseeing a major tax overhaul? Even taking the idea serious enough to mock it seems to give the process too much credit and legitimacy. We can’t let a gang of financial cheats under active Federal investigation overhaul the tax code. That’d be insanity.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:08 AM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

The VF article only confirms what everyone knew about Bannon: that him leaving the White House meant nothing but a change of office space.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:08 AM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

The Catastrophically Underfunded Tax System Crafted Under Treasonous Sycophants Covering Up Trump's Stupidity (or "CUTS CUTS CUTS") Act of 2017. Easy peasy.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:11 AM on November 1, 2017 [164 favorites]

but why is Bannon still calling all the shots, exactly?

Every Putin needs a Medvedev sometimes.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 11:12 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Stop what you’re doing and read the Vanity Fair report on the aftermath of Muellerween.

It's mostly fun but in the midst of all the behind-the-scenes antics of the White House Wack Pack there's one part that stands out as having some grounding in reality:

Roger Stone believes defunding Mueller isn’t enough. Instead, Stone wants Trump to call for a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton’s role in approving the controversial Uranium One deal that’s been a locus of rightwing hysteria (the transaction involved a Russian state-owned energy firm acquiring a Canadian mining company that controlled 20 percent of the uranium in the United States). It’s a bit of a bank shot, but as Stone described it, a special prosecutor looking into Uranium One would also have to investigate the F.B.I.’s role in approving the deal, thereby making Mueller—who was in charge of the bureau at the time—a target. Stone’s choice for a special prosecutor: Rudy Giuliani law colleague Marc Mukasey or Fox News pundit Andrew Napolitano. “You would immediately have to inform Mueller, Comey, and [Deputy Attorney General] Rod Rosenstein that they are under federal investigation,” Stone said. “Trump can’t afford to fire Mueller politically. But this pushes him aside.”

Mueller's the key. Stone's right, it's a hell of a bank shot because there is no there there, but if the man of impeccable reputation can be tarred with a conflict of interest it could call his impartiality into question, fairly or not.
posted by scalefree at 11:13 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Jeremy White, Independent: Trump says he'll consider sending New York terror suspect to Guantanamo

I think it's worse than that. In this Twitter vid it almost sounds like he's advocating for extrajudicial killings, Judge Dredd-style. He thinks that US justice is a joke.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:13 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Speaking to Steve Bannon on Tuesday, Trump blamed Jared Kushner for his role in decisions, specifically the firings of Mike Flynn and James Comey, that led to Mueller’s appointment, according to a source briefed on the call.

This is just...I'm speechless at the ineptitude. Why would you listen to a young, unintelligent trust fund baby with no political knowledge or experience AND who has proven to be a business failure as well? I wouldn't ask Jared Kushner for a restaurant recommendation, to say nothing of major political decisions.
posted by elsietheeel at 11:14 AM on November 1, 2017 [51 favorites]

I wouldn't ask Jared Kushner for a restaurant recommendation

I'm thinking Dorsia.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:15 AM on November 1, 2017 [39 favorites]

New Economy Web 2.0 Disruptor Dumbass Phrase of the Year douchecanoe saying well golly how could we have known about this aspect of the industry that folks actually figured out back at White Sands, if only they'd bothered to do the reading.

The SpaceX folks, to their credit, do seem to care about the reading:

If SpaceX’s progress sometimes seems like a 21st century replay of NASA’s early history, that’s partly because the company has greatly benefited from the space agency’s vast technical archive. “We’re standing on the shoulders of giants,” Mueller says. “With the Apollo program they learned so much. And we can get access to all that. We use that tremendously. A private company in a vacuum could not do what we did.”

It's refreshing to encounter someone in a tech company profile who understands that scientific progress and economic success is historically and socially contingent. Here's hoping that understanding translates into social responsibility and a harmonious relationship with SpaceX's public counterparts.
posted by Iridic at 11:16 AM on November 1, 2017 [22 favorites]

I want merit based.

Ok then, let's start with a merit based path to run for the President of the United States of America. Maybe a best of 5 in tic tac toe to start, the ability to write and speak at least one sentence at the competence level of a 10 year old, and completed by a best of 9 in Rock, Paper, Scissors.

To tough Donny?
posted by juiceCake at 11:16 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

The part I don't get is blaming Jared for his role in firing Flynn. That was a good idea and there's no universe in which keeping him on works to Trump's advantage.
posted by rdr at 11:19 AM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

"Cut . . . cutting . . . cutting . . ."

". . . place on plate."
posted by whuppy at 11:19 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

I hope multiple reporters will ask Sarah Huckabee Sanders what, after his first year, are some mistakes trump thinks he made, until her head explodes.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:21 AM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

> Trump has been insistent that the bill be called “The Cut Cut Cut Act.”

Somewhere out there, the ghost of Rob Ford smiles and wonders why he didn't think of that.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:23 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

I forgot Rob Ford died. I know he was an utter shitbag but part of me respected his lack of fucks.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:25 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Trump loves his pet Russian spy with weird intensity and has been pissy about having to let him go from the get go. I guess Flynn is like an extension of Putin to him and if you insult Flynn you insult Putin.
posted by Artw at 11:26 AM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

🎶 Cut cut cut 🎶
🎶 cut cut cut 🎶
🎶 cut your taxes 🎶
🎶 cut your taxes 🎶
posted by Room 641-A at 11:27 AM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

I call Senator Toomey almost every day. Generally it's boring and/or unpleasant. Today, however, I got to refer to his tax scam as The Cut Cut Cut Act and, boy, was that fun! Seriously. Give it a shot. Call your GOP senator(s) and tell their staffer exactly why The Cut Cut Cut Act sucks. Chances are you will hear them cringe over the phone.
posted by mcduff at 11:27 AM on November 1, 2017 [37 favorites]

But will Trump get his YT remix just like Rob did?
posted by maudlin at 11:27 AM on November 1, 2017

At least Rob Ford had like a serious drug addiction problem to (partly) explain his bizarre incompetence. Trump's just an idiot.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:30 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Now I have to imagine Eric Idle with a Trump wig doing the homicidal barber sketch. "I am cutting CUTTING cutting cut CUT cut CUTTING your taxes...

...I never wanted to be President in the first place. I wanted to be... A LUMBERJACK!"
posted by delfin at 11:32 AM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

The part I don't get is blaming Jared for his role in firing Flynn. That was a good idea and there's no universe in which keeping him on works to Trump's advantage.

Only in a context where Flynn can be evaluated impartially. But that's not how Trump thinks. As a narcissist his subjective opinion of Flynn outweighs the objective facts concerning him. Until his opinion changes at least, then he never had the first opinion to begin with. But we're not there yet & may never be; Flynn's goals appear to align quite closely with Trump's.
posted by scalefree at 11:33 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Trump already fucked up the prosecution of Bergdahl now he is shitting the bed on the NY City attacker.

I don't care when he screws himself and his party over but somebody really needs to tell him to stop fucking up legit prosecutions!
posted by srboisvert at 11:34 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Like helps like. He's always going to lend a criminal a hand.
posted by Artw at 11:35 AM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

> I forgot Rob Ford died. I know he was an utter shitbag but part of me respected his lack of fucks.

Rob Ford's lack of fucks = toxic rich white guy privilege crossed with multiple substance abuse problems.

> Trump's just an idiot.

I've said this before, but Rob Ford was even dumber than Trump (before Trump's obvious and ongoing cognitive decline, anyway). If Russian mobsters had tried to involve Ford in a money laundering operation he would have started talking about how you can't do that because one time he lost a twenty in the wash.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:35 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Georgia attorney general quits defense in server wiping case, Frank Bajak AP

This feels like one of those stories we're all going to be going 'Ohhhhhhh, that's why!' about in a few months.
posted by Freon at 11:36 AM on November 1, 2017 [68 favorites]

From the Vanity Fair piece:
former Trump campaign aide Sam Nunberg. “Trump is at 33 percent in Gallup. You can’t go any lower.

Last I checked, there were still 32 numbers that are lower than 33...
posted by dnash at 11:37 AM on November 1, 2017 [32 favorites]

I forgot Rob Ford died. I know he was an utter shitbag but part of me respected his lack of fucks.

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but out here someone might say that they're the "Rob Ford of peanut butter and chocolate" to indicate that they consume the same in a reckless fashion.

/end Rob Ford derail.
posted by LegallyBread at 11:38 AM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Haha that's funny, The Card Cheat. But did T even know that he was being involved in a money laundering scheme? He probably thought that the Russians were just lending him money because they thought he was a good businessman and/or liked his tie.
posted by Melismata at 11:39 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Facebook reminded me that yesterday was 4 years since the Toronto Sun put out the NIGHTMAYOR ON FORD STREET special afternoon edition. Seems like so much longer. May you know our triumph, and in 4 years have Trump be a distant memory, replaced by someone almost indistinguishable from him on policy, but without all the drama. Oh wait no.
posted by yellowbinder at 11:47 AM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

I don't frequent US politics threads. But I dove into this maelstrom to share this interview with Chris Matthews by Stephen Colbert.
posted by jouke at 11:50 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Breaking from Natasha Bertrand at business insider:

A New York City publicist who has represented clients ranging from former Trump Organization adviser Felix Sater to Ukranian billionaire Rinat Akhmetov says he was asked by Paul Manafort and Rick Gates if he could avoid registering with the Justice Department as a foreign agent while he worked for them — and whether he would agree to be paid from offshore accounts.

Yes, this was in 2012, but it pretty clearly paints the picture that these guys were filthy, knew they were filthy, and just didn't care. The. Best. People.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:52 AM on November 1, 2017 [54 favorites]

From the Vanity Fair piece:
former Trump campaign aide Sam Nunberg. “Trump is at 33 percent in Gallup. You can’t go any lower.

Last I checked, there were still 32 numbers that are lower than 33...

I think it's a reasonable statement given the overlap of the crazification factor and rabid partisan R identity people. But man, the one piece in this article that gave me laugh-out-loud (with no accompanying need to sob) was this related bit:

One Republican explained Trump’s best chance for survival is to get his poll numbers up.

Oh well of course! Why didn't anyone else think of that? "Hey guys I know this whole bankruptcy and eviction thing is scary but I had an idea: what if we made some more money? Huh? Huh? Genius, right!?"
posted by phearlez at 11:54 AM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

Georgia attorney general quits defense in server wiping case - the article says,

The erased hard drives are central to the lawsuit because they could have revealed whether Georgia's most recent elections were compromised by hackers. ...
It's not clear who ordered the server's data irretrievably erased.

Ooh. Some is on the hook for a LOT of problems. Spoliation of evidence carries huge penalties, generally of the style "we'll assume the data showed everything the other side said it might, and also fine you heavily for trying to dodge the truth." Rulings include $2.7 million on a closed case and $700k in sanctions for deleting a Facebook page - over $500k of which was a penalty assigned to the attorney.

Whoever thought "I'll just wipe the server and then they can't prove anything" is so very wrong. No, they can't prove anything with missing data - but the courts are pretty clear about assuming that suspiciously missing data means it was hiding something, probably a lot, and letting the case go through as if that point were proven.

And also, half a million in penalties to any lawyer who suggests that it'd be a good idea for the data to go missing.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:56 AM on November 1, 2017 [48 favorites]

Maybe play to the boigotted shithead vote more? He hasn't tried that.
posted by Artw at 11:56 AM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

One Republican explained Trump’s best chance for survival is to get his poll numbers up.

Oh well of course! Why didn't anyone else think of that? "Hey guys I know this whole bankruptcy and eviction thing is scary but I had an idea: what if we made some more money? Huh? Huh? Genius, right!?"

This is what terrifies me, because historically the fastest route to improving poll numbers is to go to war...
posted by Emera Gratia at 11:57 AM on November 1, 2017 [22 favorites]

That VF article is terrifying, in that it confirms (for various vague-sourced definitions of confirms) that starting a war to improve their poll numbers is on the table. Hold onto your underpants, friends.
posted by lydhre at 11:58 AM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Ronn Torossian has a negative reputation in the industry for many reasons. I would take any article that quotes him as unsubstantiated unless supported by an outside source.

No matter how tempting it is to believe the anecdote.
posted by zarq at 12:00 PM on November 1, 2017

Colin (from FB): "All ads on facebook go through a combination of automated and manual review..." something something revising policies review controversial topics etc.

Terri Sewell (D-AL) is asking: who are your vetters? Are they experts, analysts, what? Are they a diverse group of people?

Colin: The people who work on ad review are around the globe; we are committed to a diverse workforce...

Sewell: I've met your directors at a recent meeting... your diversity sucks. (strongly paraphrased.) 8.8% black employees; 2.2% leadership.)

Colin: We understand the importance of diversity...
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:05 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

That Donald Jr tweet is playing on my mind, as I guess it is for many others. So far, I am struggling to find even the worst pond life (though there was one pejorative reference to panhandling) defending it, though I admit I haven't scanned through all 40,000 responses. And - dressing your kid as a police officer for Halloween - maybe that's sort of accurate in a twisted way, but... sigh
posted by Myeral at 12:06 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

I think my favourite take from the VF piece was that the WH is seeing impeachment or 25'ing as serious possibilities. That and the fact that it's the same bunch of hapless, evil fuckwits trying to sort things out as got things to this stage in the first place, and they're STILL arguing 'go full on or pivot' with no particular sense that either will help at all.

(I nearly wrote 'go nuclear or pivot', but even I find that a tasteless idiom right now...)
posted by Devonian at 12:06 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Whoever thought "I'll just wipe the server and then they can't prove anything" is so very wrong. No, they can't prove anything with missing data - but the courts are pretty clear about assuming that suspiciously missing data means it was hiding something, probably a lot, and letting the case go through as if that point were proven.

Yup. This has been the case for a while, i.e. you can't shred paper documents that may be evidence. But many of the people in charge are still digital immigrants, who think that computers are magic or something. Hopefully that'll change as time goes on.
posted by Melismata at 12:08 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Emera Gratia This is what terrifies me, because historically the fastest route to improving poll numbers is to go to war...

I think it is a foregone conclusion that at some point in the future Trump will start a war in an effort to drive up his poll numbers.

The only real question is whether he'll do it before the 2018 elections, before the 2020 elections, both, or if he's sufficiently incompetent that he'll start a war on a whim when it isn't politically advantageous.

And the worst part is: it'll work.

Maybe not as well as the Republican President and Republican voters would like, but history shows that America really likes a war. At least during the early bombing the shit out of helpless people on the ground phase. The news gets to have all sorts of cool backgrounds and headlines and embedded reporters playing soldier and cool footage from smartbombs and cruise missiles, so they're always very much in favor of any war.

I'd like to hope that when, not if but when, the Republican President starts his war the Democrats will have the spine to stand up and denounce it as the obvious publicity stunt it is. But I think that too is a forlorn hope. The Democrats have proven, many many times, that they'll line up to praise a Republican President once he's started his war.

Our only real hope is that Trump is incompetent and impatient enough that he'll start his war too early and it won't help him in the elections too much.

Sorry whatever country he winds up bombing the shit out of. Probably it'll be Iran this time around, but who knows?
posted by sotonohito at 12:08 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

The server in question was a statewide staging location for key election-related data. It made national headlines in June after a security expert disclosed a gaping security hole that wasn't fixed for six months after he first reported it to election authorities. Personal data was exposed for Georgia's 6.7 million voters as were passwords used by county officials to access files.

June . . July, August, Sep- yeah September, October, . . NOVEMBER?! Fuckall man, that's fucked up.

I'm sure the GA Secretary of State is super interested in getting to the bottom of that. Right after scratching his pendulous nutsack and asking if you saw the game last night.
posted by petebest at 12:10 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Yup. This has been the case for a while, i.e. you can't shred paper documents that may be evidence. But many of the people in charge are still digital immigrants, who think that computers are magic or something. Hopefully that'll change as time goes on.

The drive was degaussed.

Whoever did that knew computers quite well, and was a little clueless about the law.
posted by ocschwar at 12:10 PM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

Such fatalism. The unprecedented malignancy of the current administration and the polarization in the nation does not mean that war business will go as usual. There has been no 9/11, no invasion of Kuwait. Instead it will appear to the majority of people as naked opportunism and will be met with resistance unseen since the Vietnam era.
posted by stonepharisee at 12:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [25 favorites]

degaussing does fuck it up and make it inoperable, but theoretically the platters could have data retrieved from them. you'd have to additionally shred them to within . . 1/8? . . inch to prevent that last one.
posted by petebest at 12:12 PM on November 1, 2017

Whoever did that knew computers quite well, and was a little clueless about the law.

Or what's on them is so bad that it was better to go with the prosecution's interpretation than the truth.
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

I think it is a foregone conclusion that at some point in the future Trump will start a war in an effort to drive up his poll numbers.

(cut)

And the worst part is: it'll work.

I don't want to discount any of the dangers here. We've already seen how much of our media gets an instant war-boner the second we see hardware moved into place. Look at how excited they got over the utterly pointless strikes in Syria.

But I think there's an equally likely possibility here I've mentioned before: it's entirely possible that no, a war won't help. There's no trust to begin with and there's basically no chance of this regime managing any conflict well. Whatever bump they get will probably erode very quickly. They're going to fuck this up, too.

Imagine how angry this regime is gonna be when they throw an entire war party and even that doesn't make people like them.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Colin: Many of the ads violated our guidelines at the time and should've been rejected; this has shown us areas for improvement in our vetting process. Some that didn't violate guidelines ahve convinced us to change those guidelines.

André Carson (D-IN): How do you detect messages that encourage violence?

Colin: Ads are subject to manual and automated review. (He uses that phrase a lot.)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:15 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

RE: war and poll numbers

The problem for Trump with this:

history shows that America really likes a war. At least during the early bombing the shit out of helpless people on the ground phase. The news gets to have all sorts of cool backgrounds and headlines and embedded reporters playing soldier and cool footage from smartbombs and cruise missiles, so they're always very much in favor of any war.

Is that the United States is effectively already in this mode. We've been in this mode since Afghanistan. I think the rallying effect of intensifying our efforts in the GWOT in (pick your country) is probably going to be marginal at best. And going to war with Iran or North Korea is definitely not going to be a lot of "bombing the shit out of helpless people." Short-term American casualties will probably be more significant than we've seen in a long time.
posted by AndrewInDC at 12:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

stonepharisee, remember the pundit quislings praising Trump for his pivot when he had a bunch of cruise missiles launched? And remember how effectively the broad resistance to the 2003 Iraq war was minimized and ignored? I don't see evidence that Trump can't get away with starting a war, especially if he can get some dead American servicemembers to use as props.
posted by The Gaffer at 12:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Or what's on them is so bad that it was better to go with the prosecution's interpretation than the truth.

The penalties for spoliation are set high for exactly that circumstance - the assumption is that whatever they were trying to hide, it must've been much worse than anything the other side could reasonably acquire.

The current claim is that the wipe was standard IT policy; oops we forgot to flag this drive as "keep instead of go through the normal 6-month delete policy." That's also covered by the laws, and treated just like deliberate deletion - once a lawsuit is involved, or you think a lawsuit might be involved, there's an oligation to preserve data.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

I mean, the fact that it might not work to salvage their polling is only minimally comforting.

It would still be A WAR. A war with casualties and expenses and geopolitical consequences and a couple of decades of trailing engagement. If we're lucky. Once the US goes to war it is really really really hard to walk it back: see Korea. see Vietnam. see the Middle East clusterfuck of the past three decades.
posted by lydhre at 12:19 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

especially if he can get some dead American servicemembers to use as props.

And not make their mothers cry on national TV in the process.
posted by Melismata at 12:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

delfin: "Now I have to imagine Eric Idle with a Trump wig doing the homicidal barber sketch. "I am cutting CUTTING cutting cut CUT cut CUTTING your taxes...

...I never wanted to be President in the first place. I wanted to be... A LUMBERJACK!""

[Monty Python nerd] The ORIGINAL star of the barber sketch was Michael Palin. [/Monty Python nerd]
posted by Chrysostom at 12:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

Meanwhile, he's an amuse-bouche of schadenfreude: Sinclair Broadcast Turned Away Bill O'Reilly

"Former Fox News anchor Bill O'Reilly contacted Sinclair Broadcast Group Inc. about working for the TV station group, but CEO Chris Ripley said his company isn't interested in hiring the longtime ratings leader of cable TV news.

"'He did approach us, but we do not have any interest in hiring him,' Ripley said Wednesday, Nov. 1, on a conference call with investors."

Oh, and Sinclair Broadcast missed their earnings target, reporting declines in third-quarter revenue and profits today.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:28 PM on November 1, 2017 [29 favorites]

Just heard the Trump comments on Diversity Immigration and he repeatedly said "diversary" or some such. Not a huge deal I know, but just a small reminder that he knows the best words.
posted by misterpatrick at 12:29 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Derek Thompson, The Atlantic: Donald Trump Is Incredibly Lucky to Have This Economy

In short, it’s likely that Trump’s historically miserable approval is buffeted by some of the best economic conditions of this century. He’s not being dragged down by the anchor of poor macro conditions, like so many presidents before him. This economy is the floatation device. Trump himself is the anchor.

Why does this matter? Because the economy will, eventually, sink. As The Atlantic’s Annie Lowrey writes, no economy grows forever. A U.S. recession doesn’t seem imminent, but it is inevitable. And if it happens under Trump, the president may find that economic optimism was the keystone holding up his tottering administration.

posted by ZeusHumms at 12:30 PM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

ZeusHumms: In short, it’s likely that Trump’s historically miserable approval is buffeted by some of the best economic conditions of this century

Thanks Obama ...
posted by Arbac at 12:33 PM on November 1, 2017 [81 favorites]

Ads are subject to manual and automated review

...by people living in places where they'll accept bottom-dollar for doing Facebook's dirty work, who may not detect or understand all the cultural nuances being leaned upon in the current generation of memetic warfare, e.g. why a "sheriff's star" might in context read as an antisemitic dogwhistle.

It's been my contention for quite awhile now that outsourcing all this stuff to Indian or Philippine back offices is at the root of a lot of the culture shear North American and European users experience in their interactions with moderation, and that Facebook et al either do not recognize that this is an issue or (more probably) chalk it up as a Regrettable Cost of Doing Business.

Though frankly it's hard to read a death threat as anything but that. A lot of this vileness is prima facie vile in any language or idiom.
posted by adamgreenfield at 12:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [29 favorites]

Swalwell: Have you searched your platforms and found every Russian account used to influence the 2016 elections?

All three: We have done a review, found everything we can, but continue to investigate.

Swalwell: I have two examples of two RT fakenews things - have you check to see if they've been reposted as screencaps/clips etc; have you checked for duplicate posts for all the ads you have reported?

All three: We'll have to get back to you.

Swalwell: Do your companies have a duty to report the FBI if you see foreign election interference?

All three: We'll work with the FBI; yes, we will be proactive about this.

Swalwell: Did you return ad money to the Russians? Did RT etc. make money from these ads?

Walker (Google): They made money on the ads.

Swallwell: So, Russia ran a digital attack on our democracy, AND they made a profit?

Walker: Yes.

Colin (FB): The ads didn't generate revenue from Facebook. (Not how FB ads work.)
Sean (Twitter): No, we didn't pay them.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 12:35 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

At the risk of encouraging live blogging of the press briefing, can anyone out there who may have been watching as opposed to following online confirm the veracity of this Zeke Miller tweet:

"asked to list one of Trump's 'flaws' @PressSec replies: "Probably that he has to deal with you on a daily basis"

[I know I could wait for the inevitable video but im just shocked and appalled, and I didn't think the bar could go lower]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:40 PM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

It's real, Exceptional_Hubris.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders likes doing this.
posted by Rust Moranis at 12:50 PM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

White guys in tech have a lot of issues, but this isn't one of them. It's just a big clueless company focusing on making money. Like the clueless airline and automaker CEOs.
posted by Melismata at 12:50 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

"asked to list one of Trump's 'flaws' @PressSec replies: "Probably that he has to deal with you on a daily basis"

Blech. If it wasn't bad enough that she lies to the press's face on a daily basis, she has to sneer at them while she does it.
posted by marshmallow peep at 12:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

It's been my contention for quite awhile now that outsourcing all this stuff to Indian or Philippine back offices is at the root of a lot of the culture shear North American and European users experience in their interactions with moderation, and that Facebook et al either do not recognize that this is an issue or (more probably) chalk it up as a Regrettable Cost of Doing Business.

My husband works in proofreading, and once upon a time worked for a junk mail company. He got hired as a temp because they were in the process of outsourcing proofreading to India and just needed some warm bodies to fill the seats of all the people who were quitting before being fired while they finished spinning up their Indian contractor. Not long after, he got hired perm because, as it turns out, proof reading something as highly colloquial as junk mail is not something that just any old person who is conversational in English can do. They started hemorrhaging clients until they brought most of their proof reading and all of their QC back to the US.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [26 favorites]

My favorite part of the Vanity Fair story:

“Here’s what Manafort’s indictment tells me: Mueller is going to go over every financial dealing of Jared Kushner and the Trump Organization,” said former Trump campaign aide Sam Nunberg.

i think the prospect of Mueller's team going over your finances would be terrifying to the most upstanding of citizens. If you had at all some hinky things in your books, this would be bone chilling. Now if you had a lot of shady things, well...
posted by mmascolino at 12:53 PM on November 1, 2017 [45 favorites]

The drive was degaussed.

Whoever did that knew computers quite well,

I have now seen this said in a few places and it really doesn't bear up. Thirty-five years ago when I was a pre-teen my dad had a hand-held degausser purchased from Radio Shack for what was probably around $20. We regularly used it to erase cassette tapes and I think he'd had it long enough that he would have used it on reel-to-reel tapes. a few years later we'd use it on 5.25 floppy diskettes from a TRS-80 and Atari 800.

Knowing to degauss a hard drive requires the level of knowledge about a computer that (a) this thing wipes out magnetic media and (2) a computer stores its long-term actual information on a hard drive. So yeah, someone doing this has to know about a few basic components of a computer versus thinking all the brains is in the monitor. But this is stuff that was being taught in basic computer literacy classes in the late 80s through the last time I ran such a class in the late 90s. It is not a big lift for someone who works with these machines in a professional capacity even just at a word processing level
posted by phearlez at 12:53 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

Q: The President was a little earlier when he was meeting with his cabinet about the possibility of sending this terror suspect to the detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and he said he is indeed open to that. Does the President believe he has the authority as Commander-in-Chief to send this terror suspect to Gitmo, and what advantages does the President see in sending this suspect to Guantanamo Bay?

Sarah Sanders: Look, the point he was making is that he supports, or would support, that, but he wasn't necessarily advocating for it, but he certainly would support it if he felt like that was the best move.

fffsdfasifhnaweohnf
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 12:54 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Ben Mathis-Lilley, Slate: Who Starts Whining Earlier in the Morning: Donald Trump or an Actual Baby?

Nearly every morning of my life, my beautiful son wakes me up before dawn by shouting repeatedly. At some point thereafter, I check the news on my phone, and I usually find that the president is already complaining on Twitter about something he saw on Fox News. (It happened Friday morning at 6:58.) I began wondering: Who starts whining earlier in the morning, Donald Trump or my actual baby?

posted by Johnny Wallflower at 1:01 PM on November 1, 2017 [50 favorites]

My internal gallows humorist cant help but wonder if they tried to degauss an SSD.
posted by Sphinx at 1:04 PM on November 1, 2017 [36 favorites]

It is not a big lift for someone who works with these machines in a professional capacity even just at a word processing level

I have been involved with process improvement and documentation for most of my career at fortune 50 companies so I have talked to a lot a lot of people about how they do things at work. I would be VASTLY ASTONISHED if ten percent of anyone who works with computers is at the level of knowledge you are assuming here.
posted by winna at 1:05 PM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

I hope April Ryan keeps asking Sarah Huckabee Sanders (and everyone else in the administration) "does the administration, and this president, believe slavery was wrong?"

Links to a clip of it on Parker Malloy's twitter, god the dismissive venom in SHS's tone makes my skin crawl.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 1:05 PM on November 1, 2017 [50 favorites]

Anyone else find it ironic that reportedly one of the two biggest obstacles to the tax bill, getting rid of the mortgage deduction, is one of the only good pieces of policy in the thing? (Ok, it should likely be phased out rather than gutted immediately.) I'm all for hitting the Rs on it if it helps stop the fiasco of a handout to the wealthy, but I wish it would fail because of the provisions that make the tax code more regressive rather than because it doesn't preserve a terrible regressive tax provision.
posted by Justinian at 1:07 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

Whoever did that knew computers quite well,

I have now seen this said in a few places and it really doesn't bear up. Thirty-five years ago when I was a pre-teen my dad had a hand-held degausser purchased from Radio Shack for what was probably around $20.

Respectfully, your household might have been a bit outside the norm, even for technology-enabled households in the 80s, which were already a sigma or three outside of the norm in terms of technological aptitude. I, like you, spent the 80s in a technology-intensive household, and I never saw a degausser. My family certainly knew how magnetic media worked and that there was a hardware way to render them illegible with magnets, but we didn't have cause to ever do so. Even that much familiarity with the underlying principles might be a far stretch these days. Yes, the 80s were technologically primitive compared to today, but that meant the few casual users that existed needed to know much, much more about how the damn things worked to get them to cooperate. Most modern users have at best an intellectual, not a practical knowledge of how stuff is actually stored, and an even hazier grasp of the answer to a question like "if I delete the file, doesn't that mean it's gone?"
posted by jackbishop at 1:08 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

"We need quick justice and we need STRONG justice" [real] [terrifying]
posted by Talez at 1:09 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

*jumps up and down*

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU SHUT UP I HATE YOU SHUT UPPPPPPPP!!!!
posted by elsietheeel at 1:09 PM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

*gasp* Yay! Al Franken is coming to my workplace to discuss Giant of the Senate. I’m totally going.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:10 PM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

I would be VASTLY ASTONISHED if ten percent of anyone who works with computers is at the level of knowledge you are assuming here.

I'd put cash money on under 5 %
posted by mikelieman at 1:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

May you know our triumph, and in 4 years have Trump be a distant memory

I'd give ... well, I'd give a lot for a video of Donnie smoking a fat crack rock with a couple of Russian mobsters.

The VF article only confirms what everyone knew about Bannon: that him leaving the White House meant nothing but a change of office space.

I'm not at all surprised to learn that Donnie still seeks Bannon's advice, but my hot take here is that none of Bannon's advice has done him much good so far. He's where he is now largely as a result of listening to Steve Bannon. And aside from helping to bust up the place, generally, Bannon's led the White House to zero political victories. So regardless of what he's telling Trump these days, Bannon has yet to live up to his reputation as an ace fixer-upper.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:12 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Sure, degauss your hard drives three times, if it makes you happy.

Do you degauss all your hard drives three times? No? OK, then, we have to talk.

(Degaussing hard disks is a really weird thing to do, in my experience - which is to say, I have never known it happen in any remotely normal business environment.)
posted by Devonian at 1:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

The press should ask SHS when she expects to be questioned by Mueller, heh.
posted by ryanrs at 1:14 PM on November 1, 2017 [37 favorites]

The disdain you hear in SHS's voice is her annoyance that she still has to do these stupid press briefings and frustration that we're not in an environment where she can just shoot reporters she doesn't like....yet. I also detect a hint of the grim satisfaction she thinks she'll feel once she gets to pull that trigger.

To be clear, I'm saying that Sarah Huckabee Sanders can and will literally murder every journalist in that room with glee if given the chance.
posted by VTX at 1:15 PM on November 1, 2017 [32 favorites]

Degaussing and shredding retired drives was required at my last 5 corporate and government employers, dating back to the late 90s.

It's not rocket science, it's basically standard procedure. You don't even need to have any hardware - pretty much any data shredding/disposal service will do it for you.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 1:16 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

(Degaussing hard disks is a really weird thing to do, in my experience - which is to say, I have never known it happen in any remotely normal business environment.)

I've been in environments where you can't recycle drives. We gave them to Iron Mountain. They certified they were shredded.
posted by mikelieman at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

To be clear, I'm saying that Sarah Huckabee Sanders can and will literally murder every journalist in that room with glee if given the chance.

Down-home Himmler if given half the chance, that one. Mark my words.
posted by adamgreenfield at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

I'd give ... well, I'd give a lot for a video of Donnie smoking a fat crack rock with a couple of Russian mobsters.

The personal satisfaction would be fleeting and within four days' time Steve Doocy would be tooting a rock on Fox and Friends while Brian Kilmeade asks why aren't we investigating how Hillary sold 20% of our precious crack to Russia.
posted by Rust Moranis at 1:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

"We also have to come up with punishment that's far quicker and far greater than the punishment these animals are getting right now," Trump told reporters. "They'll go through court for years. And at the end, they'll be -- who knows what happens."

He added: "We need quick justice and we need strong justice -- much quicker and much stronger than we have right now. Because what we have right now is a joke and it's a laughing stock. And no wonder so much of this stuff takes place."

TERRORIST: My friend, I want to aid the cause, but I fear death, and I fear what will happen to me after I commit these deeds.
TERRORIST HANDLER: Do not fear. The American Federal justice system is slow. It will take a long period of imprisonment before you are imprisoned for life.
TERRORIST: Oh, alright then.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 1:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

SHS called April Ryan "disgusting" and then said the president's biggest flaw was "having to deal with you people" in back to back questions, starting here. I don't know why the press corps keeps coming back for this again and again.
posted by theodolite at 1:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [41 favorites]

(Degaussing hard disks is a really weird thing to do, in my experience - which is to say, I have never known it happen in any remotely normal business environment.)

In a normal business environment, a random wipe of a drive is enough to make sure randoms getting hold of it won't be tempted to try to use what was on the drive against your business. (Password, trade secrets, et cetera.)

Degaussing after a random wipe is for when you're concerned the adversary will take the drive to a forensics specialist to get the platters scanned to try to recover the data. You do this when you know the adversary WILL get hold of the drive (e.g. with a warrant) and WILL take it to a forensics lab.
posted by ocschwar at 1:19 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

I'm not at all surprised to learn that Donnie still seeks Bannon's advice, but my hot take here is that none of Bannon's advice has done him much good so far. He's where he is now largely as a result of listening to Steve Bannon. And aside from helping to bust up the place, generally, Bannon's led the White House to zero political victories. So regardless of what he's telling Trump these days, Bannon has yet to live up to his reputation as an ace fixer-upper.

Yeah, if there's one bright spot for me in all of this, it is that I thought Bannon was stupid when he first surfaced and it turns out that he really is. He seemed like the kind of dumb man who, I dunno, reads The Art of War and some grimdark fantasy novels and thinks he knows how the world works - that he is "realistic" and "tough".
posted by Frowner at 1:19 PM on November 1, 2017 [27 favorites]

Whoever did that knew computers quite well, and was a little clueless about the law.

Or what's on them is so bad that it was better to go with the prosecution's interpretation than the truth.
posted by Emmy Rae at 12:13 PM on November 1 [3 favorites +] [!]

This. The lawsuit is merely trying to get the machines tossed and a more secure voting scheme in place. If the servers showed evidence of actual tampering by a foreign government, polonium tea might be the upshot, which is a whole lot worse than having to change out some computers systems.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

My point wasn't that wiping hard drives is some kind of specialized process, it was that some older folks think that laws created before there were computers somehow don't apply when there are computers. Like they didn't make the connection that evidence is evidence, whether it was on paper or on a computer.

(Ok, it should likely be phased out rather than gutted immediately.)

As a (disappearing) middle-class person in an expensive big city, I depend on the mortgage deduction. There's a reason why it's so popular.
posted by Melismata at 1:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

Awaiting Trump's coal comeback, miners reject retraining

Heeeeeere's the money quote (emphasis mine):

Out-of-work miners cite many reasons beyond faith in Trump policy for their reluctance to train for new industries, according to Reuters interviews with more than a dozen former and prospective coal workers, career counselors and local economic development officials. They say mining pays well; other industries are unfamiliar; and there’s no income during training and no guarantee of a job afterward.

Faith in Trump actually following through on anything is a fool's game, particularly when economic conditions are unfavorable, but it's a real big ask for these miners to risk a current income for no income and no guarantee of a reward. Further, the pinch is tightening:

Bob Levo, who runs a GMS [recruiter for coal mining companies] training program, offered a measure of realism: The point of the training is to provide low-cost and potentially short-term labor to a struggling industry, he said.

“That’s a major part of the reason that coal mines have been able to survive,” he said. “They rely on us to provide labor at lower cost.”

posted by Existential Dread at 1:22 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

MetaFilter: the same bunch of hapless, evil fuckwits trying to sort things out
posted by kirkaracha at 1:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

BuzzFeed, Alex Kantrowitz, Twitter Offered Russian TV Network RT 15% Of Its US Elections Advertising: "A Russian news outlet described by the US intelligence community as "the Kremlin’s principal international propaganda outlet" was once a top sales prospect for Twitter's US elections ad team." In which Twitter pushes RT to spend $3 for advertising on "the US elections project."
posted by zachlipton at 1:26 PM on November 1, 2017 [54 favorites]

there’s no income during training and no guarantee of a job afterward.

Just white-boarding here, but how about something like an apprenticeship, then going around to various established companies learning the business, then becoming a "Subject Matter Expert" or "Master" of the trade?
posted by mikelieman at 1:27 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

And who's going to pay people a living wage while they learn the fundamentals of a trade? Private industry? It is to laugh.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:29 PM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

The reason that the bozos in Georgia think they can get away with wiping evidence is that their gerrymandering helped give Republicans an advantage in the Georgia house delegation. They did what their political masters told them to and I'd say that there's a better than even chance that they'll get away with destroying evidence. The worst that will happen is that some junior flunky will take the fall.
posted by rdr at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Not to be a crab in a bucket, but how is that any different from any other industry, where you basically have to re-educate yourself on your own dime in order to stay relevant, and hope for the best? I went back to college to finish my degree at age 39 for this exact reason.

We should definitely structure our economy to facilitate educating and training people so that industries maintain their viability without putting an undue financial burden on individuals, buuuut unfortunately the powers that be decided that it was better to indenture students for life to the banks just for a shot at earning a paycheck.
posted by Autumnheart at 1:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

> Wait, what? I'm going to lose my mortgage interest deduction?

And your tax-protected 401(k) contributions. And state tax deductions.
Just wait - this is going to be an epic shitstorm.
posted by RedOrGreen at 1:35 PM on November 1, 2017 [42 favorites]

Offering paying jobs to workers sounds like socialism and a moral hazard. I propose a compromise, a third way if you will: give money to the miners' new employers, and the workers still get nothing. Surely people will rally behind this. With some tweaks, we can extend this approach to other sectors.
posted by The Gaffer at 1:36 PM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

I think the Republicans are pulling the elimination of the mortgage deduction after the homebuilder lobby revolt. Like I said, they're pulling the only piece of good policy in the thing. And they'll get that revenue back by capping 401k or state deductions. Ugh.
posted by Justinian at 1:38 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Earnestly, as much as elevating coal miners above everyone else and suggesting that they and only they deserve the last crumbs of fellowship our society has to offer keeps me furious and at night, trying to workshop 'coallumpenproletariat', solidarity demands that we support helping every type of worker except cops.
posted by The Gaffer at 1:38 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

These are... coal internships?
posted by Artw at 1:40 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

I would be VASTLY ASTONISHED if ten percent of anyone who works with computers is at the level of knowledge you are assuming here.

There was a Breaking Bad episode about it where they used a giant magnet to wipe the computer stored in the police evidence room. So maybe more common knowledge than you think?
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:42 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

there’s no income during training and no guarantee of a job afterward.

Yeah, I don't have a clear solution that fits neatly into our current neoliberal economic approach. I can't imagine facing the prospect of having to go without income in order to retrain for a job paying half my current wage, particularly if I were sole earner for my household. I would be extremely reluctant as well.

A socialist approach, providing support to workers during a retraining and education period, would be my ideal approach. The grimmest irony here is that many of these workers are benefiting from union wages, hoping that an incompetent president from the most union-hostile political party will save them from obsolescence.

Coal workers, like all other laborers, need our solidarity. Coal mine owners are the truest villains here, and can go rot.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:45 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

There was a Breaking Bad episode about it where they used a giant magnet to wipe the computer stored in the police evidence room. So maybe more common knowledge than you think?
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:42 PM on November 1 [+] [!]

Walter White was a PhD candidate in chemistry, so may have been slightly more educated than the general population.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:47 PM on November 1, 2017

SHS called April Ryan "disgusting" and then said the president's biggest flaw was "having to deal with you people" in back to back questions, starting here. I don't know why the press corps keeps coming back for this again and again.

More specifically, she said it was "probably that he has to deal with you guys on a daily basis." And when someone pointed out both that a) no he doesn't, SHE does, and b) that's not a real answer, she said yes that was the real answer and moved on. She's really remarkably hateful in an administration full of hate.

Also, "I think it is disgusting and absurd to suggest that anyone inside of this building would support slavery" does not actually answer the question, does it.
posted by solotoro at 1:47 PM on November 1, 2017 [43 favorites]

There was a Breaking Bad episode about it where they used a giant magnet to wipe the computer stored in the police evidence room. So maybe more common knowledge than you think?

I know the first thing I do before CRIMES is google "How to do crimes" and in this case that might've been refined to "How do I erase a hard-drive but like really erase it". I'm sure degaussing would come up in there somewhere. Although personally I'd use BleachBit (tm) because when I do crimes I do them the Clinton Way.
posted by dis_integration at 1:48 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

These are... coal internships?

You start out by putting coal in naughty kids' stockings, and work your way up?

This Pew Research article is mostly about automation, but buried in it is the nugget that 61% of Americans interviewed either "favor" or "strongly favor" a universal basic income. That's even more than the 58% who want a national jobs program.

I, personally, am in favor of both. A Works Progress Administration program for infrastructure, education, health care (especially mental health and addiction), and - oh what the hell - social media security, would provide plenty of work for everyone who needs it. And a Universal Basic Income could act as a safety net/floor, along with universal food stamps/EBT, which would take care of most food waste.

Bring on the Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism for all!
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 1:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [35 favorites]

I don't usually complain about derails, but have we maybe covered degaussing enough by now?
posted by uosuaq at 1:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

i think the prospect of Mueller's team going over your finances would be terrifying to the most upstanding of citizens. If you had at all some hinky things in your books, this would be bone chilling. Now if you had a lot of shady things, well...

I suspect it's possible to swamp Mueller's team with a bigly number of shady things.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:51 PM on November 1, 2017

ABC News (Warning: Autoplay Video):
401(k)s The White House, as the president tweeted, wanted to keep the current annual maximum for tax-free contributions ($18,000); House Republicans wanted to lower the limit to $2,400. The bill, as of this morning, would lower what individuals may contribute tax-free to their 401(k)s, to an amount about halfway between the current limit and what House Republicans initially proposed.

$2,400?! Seriously? That destroys the whole point of 401Ks. Also, wouldn't that crash the stock market since it incentivizes people away from investing in stock?
posted by octothorpe at 1:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [30 favorites]

The flaw answer doesn't even make sense. That's like me telling the HR person interviewing me that my biggest flaw is having to put up with the cheap tea they offered me on the way in.
posted by maudlin at 1:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [16 favorites]

That article was one in which I just kind of wound up hating or at the very least shaking my head at everyone.

But I have been jumping up and down and screaming for years about employers outsourcing training costs to someone, anyone else. And people will do it because you still need a damn job and if every single employer has decided that before you even walk in the door you need to be a graduate of a 2-year Certified Widget Production Specialist program that costs $17,000 then that's just what you do. Even as you know that it is bullshit.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

The state's job is to give everyone a foundational level of education upon which they can choose to build on with secondary education, certifications, and other kinds of specific training required for certain kinds of work. In unusual circumstances, it can make sense for the state to get involved by subsidizing or providing training that's tailored to specific job categories, but the more specialized that becomes, the more danger there is that these programs do more harm than good.

If an entrepreneur has a profitable idea that they can turn into a business model, they should be the ones who foot the bill for acquiring the talent they need to realize that dream, including any necessary training. Rescuing specific industries that are declining simply because the people who live in the areas that those industries are located in are hurting is counterproductive. Help the people directly and let those dying industries die. Propping up the declining industry just prolongs the inevitable.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

BuzzFeed, Alex Kantrowitz, Twitter Offered Russian TV Network RT 15% Of Its US Elections Advertising: "A Russian news outlet described by the US intelligence community as "the Kremlin’s principal international propaganda outlet" was once a top sales prospect for Twitter's US elections ad team." In which Twitter pushes RT to spend $3 for advertising on "the US elections project."

Wait. They actively solicited advertising from a foreign entity on the topic of a US election?

Isn’t that very very illegal?
posted by schadenfrau at 1:53 PM on November 1, 2017 [59 favorites]

Walter White was a PhD candidate in chemistry, so may have been slightly more educated than the general population.

Walt wanted to blow up the evidence room, it was Jesse who said, "Yo, what about a magnet?"
posted by peeedro at 1:56 PM on November 1, 2017 [28 favorites]

The flaw answer doesn't even make sense. That's like me telling the HR person interviewing me that my biggest flaw is having to put up with the cheap tea they offered me on the way in.

Yeah but it's the essence of the Trump playbook. "Hey are you feeling bad? No, you're bad!" "Do you have any flaws? No, you!" "You're a puppet of Russia: NO PUPPET YOU'RE THE PUPPET" etc. All you have to do is get HRC to accuse him of being President and he'll say "NO YOU'RE PRESIDENT" (and then she becomes president, right, that's how this works I think)
posted by dis_integration at 1:59 PM on November 1, 2017 [30 favorites]

$2,400?! Seriously? That destroys the whole point of 401Ks. Also, wouldn't that crash the stock market since it incentivizes people away from investing in stock?

This would absolutely eliminate the 401(k) as a retirement vehicle, and boy howdy wouldn't that get fucking interesting. Fuck over every professional worker, fuck over the financial industry, crash the stock market, good times all around. I know these jokers don't have any clue how to govern in any meaningful sense, but this seems less like driving the economy into a ditch and more like willfully driving the economy into a bridge abutment at 60 mph.
posted by Existential Dread at 1:59 PM on November 1, 2017 [76 favorites]

I would be well and truly shocked if the financial services industry wasn't lobbying hard to maintain the current 401(k) deductions. Vanguard, Fidelity, T. Rowe Price, Charles Schwab, etc., make so much money off of 401(k) participation.

There are a lot of problems with 401(k) plans, but if the Republicans don't have a better alternative to encourage retirement savings, it's a huge mistake to reduce the deductible amounts. I suppose for older workers or retirees who never had access to the plans, they won't notice a difference and it won't impact voter behavior. But for every worker, say, under 55 or so, this is going to come off as a massive "fuck you" from the Republicans. Between this, the ACA repeal debacle, and Nazis, it's like the Republicans really do not want to survive the next decade.
posted by stowaway at 2:00 PM on November 1, 2017 [38 favorites]

$2,400?! Seriously? That destroys the whole point of 401Ks. Also, wouldn't that crash the stock market since it incentivizes people away from investing in stock?

$2,400?!? What in the fuck? Even with the halfway amount that's still only $7,800.

They're just giving the upper middle class the giant middle finger on this one. I wouldn't be so fucking pissed if over half the benefit weren't going to the 1%. We're a six figure household without kids and our effective income tax rate last year was 21%. People well above us in the income stakes paying 10%, 12%, 15%, because they diverted all their shit to capital income and dividends, they can go to hell.
posted by Talez at 2:04 PM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

This would absolutely eliminate the 401(k) as a retirement vehicle, and boy howdy wouldn't that get fucking interesting. Fuck over every professional worker, fuck over the financial industry, crash the stock market, good times all around.

While also crashing the health insurance industry by making it too expensive for most people to buy coverage that actually covers anything. I’m starting to genuinely believe that Republicans just suck tremendously at math. None of their pet policies add up. Literally.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

I really want to see coal industry nationalization on the Dem platform:

1. Federal government buys the coal industry outright (it's worth less than $5B)
2. Existing coal workforce is put to work shuttering mining facilities, meanwhile getting trained on the job as pollution remediators.
3. Any remaining assets are sold off and the freshly minted corps of mine site cleanup specialists is put to work by the EPA on other dirty sites around the country that nobody will take responsibility for.
posted by contraption at 2:07 PM on November 1, 2017 [97 favorites]

I’m starting to genuinely believe that Republicans just suck tremendously at math. None of their pet policies add up.

They're not supposed to add up. It's about being a massive transfer of wealth to those to which they've pledged fealty to in exchange for power.
posted by Talez at 2:07 PM on November 1, 2017 [36 favorites]

I’m starting to genuinely believe that Republicans just suck tremendously at math. None of their pet policies add up. Literally.

entropicamericana's razor: never attribute to republican stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice
posted by entropicamericana at 2:09 PM on November 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

I think it is a foregone conclusion that at some point in the future Trump will start a war in an effort to drive up his poll numbers.

The only real question is whether he'll do it before the 2018 elections, before the 2020 elections, both, or if he's sufficiently incompetent that he'll start a war on a whim when it isn't politically advantageous.

April 2018 was my prediction the day after the election, and I'm sticking by it.
posted by vibrotronica at 2:09 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

then said the president's biggest flaw was "having to deal with you people" in back to back questions

THAT'S NOT HOW FLAWS WORK YOU FUCKING FUCKO!

Sarah Huckabee Sanders brings out my inner Susie Green.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

They're not supposed to add up. It's about being a massive transfer of wealth to those to which they've pledged fealty to in exchange for power.

Well, yes, but the wealth goes away when you tank the vehicles that generate it. These people are sharpening the knives and putting Goose With Golden Eggs on the menu.
posted by Autumnheart at 2:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Also, limiting the 401(k) exclusion is really just a timing change as far as the US budget is concerned; they aren't creating additional revenue. They're raiding future revenues (tax on the money when it's withdrawn) to pay for current corporate tax cuts.

Most people are making more when working vs retired, so the tax rate on incremental income taxing it now is higher than it would be taxed at on retirement. So doesn't it increase revenue by taxing the money during higher tax bracket years? While screwing the worker even more.
posted by chris24 at 2:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

One deleted; lots of people don't have mortgages or 401ks, but "fuck you"s are still not ok.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 2:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

I've said before that Republican politicians seem to need to please donors (Kochs, Mercers, etc.) while simultaneously fooling voters. And the hard-core Republican base seems very easily fooled by appeals to God, flag, and white supremacy. Saying "WHITE CHRISTIAN 'MURKA FUCK YEAH" while picking voters' pockets has worked. But it sounds to me like Republicans are now trying to push things too far. No more mortgage tax deductions? No more state and local tax deductions? No more nontaxable 401K contributions? I have a feeling that they can't flag-wave, slut-shame, and whitepeople their way out of this one. I hope. /cross fingers
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 2:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Do you know how lucky you are you have a 401k or IRA?

I'm 40 and I'm praying I get a fast moving cancer that will take me out as quickly as possible when the time comes.

The middle class and ESPECIALLY the upper middle class are complicit in this. I had a pension, but an illness took me out and I haven't been able to vest it.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

Well, yes, but the wealth goes away when you tank the vehicles that generate it. These people are sharpening the knives and putting Goose With Golden Eggs on the menu.

Push the button!
posted by Talez at 2:19 PM on November 1, 2017

Wait. They actively solicited advertising from a foreign entity on the topic of a US election?

Isn’t that very very illegal?

Not a lawyer, but I wouldn’t have thought so… RT is still nominally a news outlet, so a US election would be a logical time for them to advertise to get new viewers, just as the Guardian might choose to advertise along the lines of ‘get all the latest news and best commentary about the US election from the Guardian’.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 2:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

(Sorry but does anybody have a link to details about the tax plan? I'm not seeing anything in this thread beyond the ABC News article but that doesn't mention mortgage interest deductions?)
posted by birdheist at 2:20 PM on November 1, 2017

$2,400?! Seriously? That destroys the whole point of 401Ks. Also, wouldn't that crash the stock market since it incentivizes people away from investing in stock?

Jesus fucking Christ. I just started laughing in my office.

I personally know at least two (2) finance dudes who voted for Trump because they thought he would lower taxes and bring """economic stability"""". Joke's on you, assholes, especially the one who specializes in personal fucking finance for the upper fucking middle class.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2017 [43 favorites]

Well, yes, but the wealth goes away when you tank the vehicles that generate it. These people are sharpening the knives and putting Goose With Golden Eggs on the menu.

Well, how would Russia feel about it?
posted by Artw at 2:22 PM on November 1, 2017

I don't think the point is whether those of us who currently have 401(k)s or mortgages are privileged, but rather that the party and president* who said they were going to help the middle class are raiding those two advantages, not to give the money to those who don't have those things, but to give it to those who already have way too much money. In addition, the proposed new schedules actually increase income tax rates on the lowest category, from 10% to 12%, sort of an extra "fuck you" to the lowest earners. They'd be delighted to see these two groups attacking each other.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [34 favorites]

> The middle class and ESPECIALLY the upper middle class are complicit in this.

Oh, sure. And the people who eat beef are complicit in global warming. That's (sort of) not the point.

The point is, even by their own lights, this proposal is about to run into a giant buzz saw of "They're going to take away our retirement accounts???" from the middle and upper-middle class, and I don't think the Republicans have correctly estimated the tidal wave of outrage it will produce.

Yes, yes, leopards, faces, but if Social Security was the third rail of politics, I don't even know how you'd describe the danger level of meddling with the mortgage deduction, 401(k) limits, and deductions for state taxes. At the SAME TIME.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [25 favorites]

Do you know how lucky you are you have a 401k or IRA?

That's the thing though. Having a 401k or IRA shouldn't be a factor of luck. We should be fixing the fact that not enough people have them. Everyone without question gets a 401(k) in Australia. Everyone without question gets a certain percentage of their gross income as an additional payment sent to that account. Everyone is still eligible for the pension if the markets fail them or they flat run out of cash. That's the way it should be.
posted by Talez at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [39 favorites]

"Even though they're technically not touching the home mortgage interest deduction, the reality is they're going to gut the mortgage interest deduction," said Gerald H. Howard, CEO of the home builders group. "Doubling the standard deduction would mean only the wealthiest homeowners would be able to take the mortgage interest deduction."
posted by halation at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Melania's photo of the White House Halloween decorations neatly fits into the critique that her photo style is that of a princess trapped in a monster's castle.
posted by peeedro at 2:24 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

There is a scene in the movie Fight Club where they show a montage of people doing missions for "Project Mayhem" where a couple of guys are going through a VHS movie rental place holding what I assumed here degaussing coils to erase all the movies. My friends and I all knew about degaussing coils and what they could be used for somewhere around 6th grade circa 1992. We were all nerds, I suppose, but there are two more "maybe the knowledge is more common than you think" data points.

[One deleted; lots of people don't have mortgages or 401ks, but "fuck you"s are still not ok.]

"Fuck you" is a fine reply for the "fuck you, got mine" crowd but we're not that crowd. We're the "hey, I have a thing and it's great! Why can't everyone that wants it have this thing?!" crowd.
posted by VTX at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Do any of you actually think this administration can pass a goddamn thing?
posted by schadenfrau at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

trump wants to call the tax bill "cuts! cuts! cuts!"

ctrl-f "Pizza! Pizza!"
posted by notsnot at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2017

The ex-urban petit bourgeois who made Trump president are about to realize leopards eat faces.
posted by chris24 at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2017 [16 favorites]

Do any of you actually think this administration can pass a goddamn thing?

The moment we think they can't pass a goddamn thing is the moment they do.
posted by Twain Device at 2:26 PM on November 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

But it sounds to me like Republicans are now trying to push things too far. No more mortgage tax deductions? No more state and local tax deductions? No more nontaxable 401K contributions? I

As somebody who's woefully behind on following this tax cut plan, this is what I don't get either. How, exactly, are the Republicans in Congress explaining—especially to higher-but-not-highest earners who vote Republican because they want lower taxes—that taking away their tax benefits is a good thing they should support?

I honestly don't get why these guys think this will fly. If they thought people were screaming at them over health care, they don't know how loud people who earn more and have more political power than desperate poor people can scream.
posted by Rykey at 2:27 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

It doesn’t make any sense, how can you position yourself as the party of home owners while taking away the benefits of home ownership?
posted by corb at 2:31 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Out-of-work miners cite many reasons... there’s no income during training and no guarantee of a job...

But they're out of work. What income are they sacrificing while training?

"No guarantee of a job". What year is this, 1950? No, there are no guarantees but what's the alternative, wait and hope for a job that might never materialize while Trump/Congress cuts the funding for retraining programs?
posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:32 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

so the three cuts in The Cut Cut Cut Act:

cutting mortgage interest tax deduction
cutting 401k max contribution
cutting state and local tax deduction

ok.
posted by localhuman at 2:32 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

As somebody who's woefully behind on following this tax cut plan, this is what I don't get either. How, exactly, are the Republicans in Congress explaining—especially to higher-but-not-highest earners who vote Republican because they want lower taxes—that taking away their tax benefits is a good thing they should support?

At the moment, outright lies.

Their talking point is to quote the average tax reduction across all people so the "average" person thinks they're getting a $4,000 tax cut while in reality Mr Moneybags is taking most of it.
posted by Talez at 2:32 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

...this seems less like driving the economy into a ditch and more like willfully driving the economy into a bridge abutment at 60 mph.
Kinda like the way the introduction of capitalism into the Soviet Union played out! That sure worked out well!
posted by Golem XIV at 2:33 PM on November 1, 2017

> How, exactly, are the Republicans in Congress explaining—especially to higher-but-not-highest earners who vote Republican because they want lower taxes—that taking away their tax benefits is a good thing they should support?

In the same way that they so successfully explained to the public at large that "Repeal and Go Fuck Yourself" was actually giving them better healthcare? Does that ... not work so well?

> they don't know how loud people who earn more and have more political power than desperate poor people can scream.

Yes, that's exactly my point. I think they're out of their minds for even proposing this, because they're about to break the trust of every rich (top 5% but not top 1%) Republican voter, and I don't think hating on brown/black people will make up for cash out of pocket.
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:33 PM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

It doesn’t make any sense, how can you position yourself as the party of home owners while taking away the benefits of home ownership?

because they are positioning themselves as the party of white supremacists and the 1%
posted by entropicamericana at 2:33 PM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

I honestly don't get why these guys think this will fly. If they thought people were screaming at them over health care, they don't know how loud people who earn more and have more political power than desperate poor people can scream.

possibilities:

1) they think things are sufficiently gerrymandered or borked that they don't have to care who screams and how loudly

2) they know this might not fly, but they also know that people on the koch-mercer wealth continuum are the people whose screams they truly have to heed, so they are at least putting on a show for their masters, because they have been told that if they don't at least try, they're not going to get paid

3) they know their party is going down, and this is their last-ditch, for-all-the-marbles effort to grab as much as they can while they still can

4) all of the above
posted by halation at 2:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

I got a notification from the NYT that began “President Trump called our reporter to...” but I missed the last of it. Help me, MeFites, what did Trump call a Times reporter to do??!
posted by Andrhia at 2:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

I can't talk intelligently about cutcutcut, so I'll call back an earlier discussion. The GED and PhD, respectively, of Jesse and Walt are immaterial to the question of whether every person now knows how to mess up a hard drive with a magnet. Ditto the MFA of whoever wrote yowhataboutamagnet. No matter the level of their education, every member of the 99 showwatching percent who saw that episode now has the sweet STEM news you can use: hit up harbor freight for a bigass magnet and you can deglaze your computerbox.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:35 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

I got a notification from the NYT that began “President Trump called our reporter to...” but I missed the last of it. Help me, MeFites, what did Trump call a Times reporter to do??!

Explain his novel solution to Fermat's Last Theorem?
posted by mosk at 2:36 PM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

I got a notification from the NYT that began “President Trump called our reporter to...” but I missed the last of it. Help me, MeFites, what did Trump call a Times reporter to do??!

say he wasn't under investigation
posted by entropicamericana at 2:36 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

I was close, as both are equally unlikely.
posted by mosk at 2:36 PM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

3) they know their party is going down, and this is their last-ditch, for-all-the-marbles effort to grab as much as they can while they still can

I'm pretty sure it's mostly this. Any subsequent Democratic Congress/Administration is flat out going to have to raise taxes to stop the country going broke. You think there's a shitstorm when they cut things like hell? Hell will hath no fury like right wingers faced with a potential tax rise on the rich. The pendulum will swing back to Republicans so fast you'll wonder how it didn't break the universal speed of causality.
posted by Talez at 2:36 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

President Not Mad

Trump called our reporter to refute claims that he was upset about indictments: “I’m actually not angry at anybody”

posted by Existential Dread at 2:36 PM on November 1, 2017 [25 favorites]

Help me, MeFites, what did Trump call a Times reporter to do??!

SOMETHING!
posted by peeedro at 2:37 PM on November 1, 2017 [40 favorites]

There is a scene in the movie Fight Club where they show a montage of people doing missions for "Project Mayhem" where a couple of guys are going through a VHS movie rental place holding what I assumed here degaussing coils to erase all the movies.

Really all this "does the general public know what degaussing is" wasn't what I meant my point to be and I apologize. I was driving more at the fact that the gadgets that do this are not super uncommon or weird and specialized, though most places might not have one. BUT if you were someone at an institution that had one, as this agency clearly did and which lots of places do? Knowing how to jam it up against a hard drive and what a hard drive is doesn't make you particularly computer-savvy.
posted by phearlez at 2:37 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

The tax reform is driven by the GOP donors. Eg, the millionaires that actually finance the reps. A large chunk of these donors told the GOP that they would withdraw support without some form of legislative victory. After the failure of the ACA repeal and general do-nothingness "tax reform" is that last thing that McConnel, Ryan, and etc. have to keep their cash flow going.

For more info see Salon
For the proposed mortgage deduction changes see: Fortune
posted by pdoege at 2:38 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

The thread is moving fast but I think it was missed; my belief is that the mortgage deduction cut was removed from the bill in favor of the state&local deduction cut and some sort of 401k cap. So I don't think it will be in the proposed bill, guys.

The other cuts are even more terrible so this is not a good thing.
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

The thread is moving fast but I think it was missed; my belief is that the mortgage deduction cut was removed from the bill in favor of the state&local deduction cut and some sort of 401k cap. So I don't think it will be in the proposed bill, guys.

The standard deduction was increased making the mortgage deduction useless except for people with really big houses.
posted by Talez at 2:39 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

I think the donor class has watched the rise of overt racism/misogyny/homophobia/xenophobia and has decided fuck it, they no longer need to dog whistle their theft from the 99% any more. They're just saying their quiet parts out loud like the rest of the GOP.
posted by klarck at 2:39 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

President Not Mad

Trump called our reporter to refute claims that he was upset about indictments: “I’m actually not angry at anybody”

"Instead, Kelly has fetched my brown pants. We're all good. Nothing to see here. Move along."

posted by Existential Dread at 5:36 PM on November 1

LOL
posted by zarq at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

The standard deduction was increased making the mortgage deduction useless except for people with really big houses.

That's true! It's going to be even more regressive if this thing passes. Everything is terrible.
posted by Justinian at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

I honestly don't get why these guys think this will fly.

I doubt they think it will fly. The White House is against it; I'd be surprised if the Senate went for it. It's a negotiating tactic. They want to gut the social safety net as much as they possibly can, and this is the opening gambit.

I think the only one of these things that has any chance of passing is getting rid of the local tax deduction - it mostly hits blue-state voters, and there isn't a powerful lobby around to defend it.
posted by breakin' the law at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

I got a notification from the NYT that began “President Trump called our reporter to...” but I missed the last of it. Help me, MeFites, what did Trump call a Times reporter to do??!

...and refuted claims that he was upset about Monday's indictments: "I'm actually not angry at anybody"
posted by Room 641-A at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Plus they're keeping property tax deductions in the bill. So your typical red state with less income tax, and high property tax is going to get a massive cut compared to MA/CA/NY high income tax, and lower property taxes often limited by constitutional amendment.
posted by Talez at 2:41 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

The 401k minimization would actually be quite historic. 401ks were originally meant as a replacement for pensions - which no one has anymore - as a means to save for retirement.

Now if 401ks vaporize, along with "entitlement" cuts inevitable on the horizon (once they're grown the deficit, we'll just have to do it! austerity! fiscal "responsibility!"), and health care cost "sharing" as an ever-increasing expense ...

It's not Nov. 8th yet but I'm gonna go out and scream at the sky.
posted by Dashy at 2:42 PM on November 1, 2017 [17 favorites]

I have a mortgage and take the deduction. I'm OK in theory with doing away with the deduction. It is a federal housing subsidy for people who need it the least. This particular plan to do away with it sucks though from what I've read so far.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 2:42 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

I see another answer to the NYT alert question; my comment is the phone alert I got, verbatim.
posted by Room 641-A at 2:42 PM on November 1, 2017

3) they know their party is going down, and this is their last-ditch, for-all-the-marbles effort to grab as much as they can while they still can

I honestly think this explains A LOT about the behavior of the Republican Party in the 2010s, up to and including Trump.
posted by breakin' the law at 2:43 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Because there's interest and hacked voting machines are very likely A THING, (pause, breathe in, aaaaand relax) . . . fwiw, these aren't tape-head or roll-your-own degaussers. These are the size of coffee table books, about 7" tall, and the magnet is so strong it melts the chips in the drive. It's loud enough to be heard over typical office chatter down a long hall and contains warnings in the manual to the effect of "Do Not Operate This Machine If: you have a heart condition, are pregnant, etc.," If you forget to leave your phone and/or credit cards at the other end of said hall you'll possibly lose them too.

That kind of degaussing is absolutely all about destroying evidence, full stop.

I knew this one guy right who degaussed his girlfriend back to Canada and he had to leave school for three months to go get her back. And the pop rocks in his pocket blew up. And the baby looked at me and I saw the baby.
posted by petebest at 2:43 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

President Not Mad
"They said I was mad! MAD?! I'LL SHOW THEM! I'LL SHOW THEM ALL! MUHAHAHHAHAHA!"
posted by The otter lady at 2:43 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

For those of you who've occasionally been moved to fond thoughts of the neoliberal-technocrat center by events of the past year, here's a reminder of just why we need to defeat them the very moment we're done putting down actually-existing fascism: prime apologist for the reprehensible/gullible brownnoser Farhad Manjoo (I know, big surprise) with a New York Times piece entitled, I shit thee nay, "The Upside of Being Ruled by the Five Tech Giants."

Its premise? "What if it’s not that bad that so much economic, social and political power is held by Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft?"
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Like my city in MA is $17.02 per thousand and that's high for MA and we pay ~6% income tax to the state. Over the state line in Nashua it's $26 per thousand and no income tax because LOL LIVE FREE OR DIE. They're definitely going to see a much smaller knock on effect.
posted by Talez at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2017

fwiw, these aren't tape-head or roll-your-own degaussers. These are the size of coffee table books, about 7" tall, and the magnet is so strong it melts the chips in the drive.

I was envisioning....
posted by zarq at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

> A large chunk of these donors told the GOP that they would withdraw support without some form of legislative victory.

GOP politicians are stuck between the Mercer-Kochs and all your racist uncles, with no escape route.
posted by klarck at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Meanwhile, in nutcase land... Why the far right believes a US civil war will start on Saturday

But we're in an equal and opposite bubble to these delusional weirdos, really.
posted by Artw at 2:46 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

Unpopular opinion: We should get rid of the mortgage interest deduction. It's incredibly regressive.

CUTSCUTSCUTS a really bad reason to get rid of it, though.
posted by schmod at 2:46 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

GOP politicians are stuck between the Mercer-Kochs and all your racist uncles, with no escape route.

Looking over their financial policies. Yeah.
posted by mikelieman at 2:47 PM on November 1, 2017

I think the idea (which we don't know about, since no plan has been released) is that the annual deduction for everyone would double, which means that people who don't itemize (renters and people with no mortgage or small interest payments/SALT*) would see a reduction in their taxable income, but they would offset the cuts to the rich by reducing or eliminating the other tax breaks (401k, mortgage/SALT deductions), which would screw over the people who would still itemize with a doubled deduction (e.g. high interest payments/SALT areas). I think there was also talk of reducing/merging the tax brackets, so the people at the top brackets would be lumped in the lower bracket, and the the lowest brackets would be moved up. Which it's own sort of fuckery. Still seems like it would target the upper middle class population, which is definitely part of the leopards-eating-faces party.

*State and Local Taxes
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 2:47 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Why the far right believes a US civil war will start on Saturday

Krang T. Nelson has a lot to answer for
posted by Existential Dread at 2:48 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Too good for this world, or at least for Jack's fucking stupid nazi appeasing site.
posted by Artw at 2:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

CUTSCUTSCUTS a really bad reason to get rid of it, though.

If Donald Trump came out in support of the Anthropic Principle I'd start believing that God himself created the world in six days.
posted by Talez at 2:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

I think the only one of these things that has any chance of passing is getting rid of the local tax deduction - it mostly hits blue-state voters, and there isn't a powerful lobby around to defend it.

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, even in blue-ass states like NY and NJ, there are elected Republicans. Peter King is a vile sack of right wing, race-baiting, Islamophobic shit, but he's from Long Island, and is really fucking loud about how he is not down for SALT elimination.

In fact, per this Bloomberg article, there are 52 Republicans whose districts benefit disproprtionately from SALT.

The Republicans only have a 45 seat majority in the House.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

I want to put aside the culture war and economic stuff and even can Republicans even math?? and address this graf by itself:

401(k)s The White House, as the president tweeted, wanted to keep the current annual maximum for tax-free contributions ($18,000); House Republicans wanted to lower the limit to $2,400. The bill, as of this morning, would lower what individuals may contribute tax-free to their 401(k)s, to an amount about halfway between the current limit and what House Republicans initially proposed.

What the fuck kind of tortured bullshit is it to write an amount about halfway between the current limit and what House Republicans initially proposed??? Who pushed publish on this? Why is it not "the current $18,000 annual maximum for tax-free contributions" instead of that stupid parenthetical? And why require the reader to go back and look at the amounts of 18000 and 2400 and subtract one from the other and then divide by 2 when "to approximately $8,000, an amount between the current limit and the initial proposal" is more readable?

Bad writing aside, I agree the mortgage interest deduction is a sop to the well-off but I think changing it without a decent time horizon is pretty awful. Even people who are fairly well off deserve to be able to make life plans as big as home purchases with some sense of stability and I bet there's a lot of people in higher cost areas like mine where there's people on the razor's edge of affordability with that deduction.

Never mind the cascade of impact this would have on the economy and housing values. I'd bet that this would kick a leg out of the stool so hard that this would rain some real shit down on folks who might not take the deduction but make a living around the housing - builders, plumbers, etc.
posted by phearlez at 2:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

I got a notification from the NYT that began “President Trump called our reporter to...” but I missed the last of it. Help me, MeFites, what did Trump call a Times reporter to do??!

Explain his novel solution to Fermat's Last Theorem?

maybe that's how it went in The Raisin Universe
posted by halation at 2:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Too good for this world, or at least for Jack's fucking stupid nazi appeasing site.

he got better
posted by entropicamericana at 2:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Meanwhile, in nutcase land... Why the far right believes a US civil war will start on Saturday

If the Guardian didn't mostly copy off Will Sommer's homework I'll eat a cake.
posted by phearlez at 2:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Let’s not cheapen the great Words Cake tradition
posted by schadenfrau at 2:54 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

I think the idea (which we don't know about, since no plan has been released) is that the annual deduction for everyone would double, which means that people who don't itemize (renters and people with no mortgage or small interest payments/SALT*) would see a reduction in their taxable income, but they would offset the cuts to the rich by reducing or eliminating the other tax breaks (401k, mortgage/SALT deductions), which would screw over the people who would still itemize with a doubled deduction (e.g. high interest payments/SALT areas).

But they're also eliminating the personal exemptions, so the standard deduction increase is only 3-15%:
--proposed Trump deduction = $12000 individual
--current individual: $6350 standard deduction + $4050 personal exemption = $10400
--current individual age 65+: $10400 +$1250 addl standard deduction = $11650
(their proposal does not mention head of household status, so they may be eliminating that)
posted by melissasaurus at 2:55 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

President Not Mad

“Calmer than you are,” Mr. Trump said in a brief telephone call to The Times late Wednesday afternoon. [fake]
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 3:00 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

(their proposal does not mention head of household status, so they may be eliminating that)

It wouldn't truly be a Republican tax plan if they didn't fuck non-nuclear families hard.
posted by Talez at 3:00 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

he got better

Mike Cernovich 🇺🇸
@Cernovich
Don Jr. has incredible instincts and doesn't back down to media. No limit on his political career, if he so chooses.

KRANG TEE NELSON
@KrangTNelson
he tweeted out damning emails of his own foreign collusion and struggles to breath out of his nose

posted by Room 641-A at 3:01 PM on November 1, 2017 [68 favorites]

Let me see if I have this straight:

- Trump says Mexicans are rapists. Congressional Republicans say ok.
- Trump calls for a Muslim ban. Congressional Republicans say sure.
- Trump attacks a Gold Star family. Congressional Republicans aren't going anywhere.
- Trump brags about committing sexual assault on tape. Congressional Republicans are still on board.
[Essentially uncountable number of bullet points here of the form Trump does something horrible. Congressional Republicans shrug.]

- Trump insists the tax bill be called the "The Cut Cut Cut Act." Congressional Republicans push back.

THIS IS WHERE THEY DRAW THE DAMN LINE?
posted by zachlipton at 3:02 PM on November 1, 2017 [69 favorites]

"Ironically, one person who attended stated, 'The Heart of Texas promoted this event, but we didn't see one of them,'" Burr said. "We now know why. It's hard to attend an event in Houston, Texas, when you're trolling from a site in St. Petersburg, Russia."

posted by xyzzy at 3:05 PM on November 1, 2017 [94 favorites]

Tim Cama, The Hill: Trump to reconsider Grand Canyon uranium mining ban

“This appalling recommendation threatens to destroy one of the world’s most breathtakingly beautiful regions to give free handouts to the mining industry,” Allison Melton, an attorney with the Center for Biological Diversity, said in a Wednesday statement about the report. [...] “Uranium mining would have brought in nearly $29 billion to our local economy over a 42-year period,” the board of supervisors of Arizona’s Mohave County wrote in June to Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke."

Ryan Zinke will not rest until the Grand Canyon watershed is full of uranium mining waste. He's as odious as they come and a traitor to the natural world itself.
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:10 PM on November 1, 2017 [51 favorites]

- Trump insists the tax bill be called the "The Cut Cut Cut Act." Congressional Republicans push back.

THIS IS WHERE THEY DRAW THE DAMN LINE?

I'm living in a simulator, right? This is just a game of Roy, isn't it? And it's... malfunctioning? It's some kind of weird art student pastiche that thinks they invented surrealism and post-modernism, right? Look, I've already had a deeply, unsettlingly weird life before the past year or so, and I'm really not sure about all of this.

I knew I shouldn't have gone so far off grid. Look, I can go back to the carpet store, but we really need to talk about some bugs in the system.
posted by loquacious at 3:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

Russian actors organized both anti-Islam and pro-Islam protests in the same location at the same time on May 21, 2016, using separate Facebook pages operated from a so-called troll farm in St. Petersburg, the Senate Intelligence Committee disclosed on Wednesday.

In-fucking-credible. I have elderly relatives who like seeing pictures of the twins on the ol' FB, but I'm really tempted to close up my account.
posted by Existential Dread at 3:14 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

Trump insists the tax bill be called the "The Cut Cut Cut Act." Congressional Republicans push back.

It's OK. They'll compromise on "The Cut Cut Cut Plan," or CCCP for short.
[Fake; everyone knows the GOP caucus is called the Rushin' Federation these days.]
posted by stopgap at 3:16 PM on November 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

the problem is it's spelled Kut Kut Kut
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

With all the cutcutcuting and popadopolopadingdonging going on these last few days, I worry there's a degenerative memetic virus floating around. Be careful out there, everybody. Take your Vitamin C C Co Co Covfefe
posted by Rust Moranis at 3:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

actual footage of oval office deliberations
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 3:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

@damianpaletta: Brady says tax bill will only have TEMPORARY cut in the corp rate from 35% to 20%. Couldn't not make permanent cut comply with Senate rules

In article form, that's House Republicans Consider Drastic Phase Out of Corporate Tax Rate Reduction. The corporate rate would go back up to 22% in year 10, back to 35% after that. So I guess now it's the "Temporary Cut Cut Cut Act?"

Hey, I wonder what Paul Ryan thinks about temporary tax cuts: "Every expert agrees that temporary reforms will only have a negligible impact on wages and economic growth." --Paul Ryan, 6/20/17
posted by zachlipton at 3:24 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Trump reportedly blames Kushner for the Russia problems and Munchin and Cohn for the Tax Cut Bill issues. If only I could put my finger on what those three gentlemen have in common from Trump's perspective.
posted by Justinian at 3:25 PM on November 1, 2017 [53 favorites]

President Not Mad

Trump called our reporter to refute claims that he was upset about indictments: “I’m actually not angry at anybody”

Fun fact: In England the words "Mad" and "Angry" are not used interchangeably.
posted by srboisvert at 3:39 PM on November 1, 2017 [25 favorites]

oh shit guys is the civil war Saturday? I thought it was Sunday
posted by allegedly at 3:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

So, Russian trolls organized both sides of a protest in Texas and encouraged violence in the streets. It apparently cost the Russians about $200 in Facebook spending to get a bunch of Texans to go out and protest and counter-protest each other.

That's 11649 Rubles and Facebook sees nothing wrong here. Mark Zuckerberg is attending a corn harvester combine show in Iowa.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

oh shit guys is the civil war Saturday? I thought it was Sunday

EVERY day is Civil War Day.
posted by zakur at 3:48 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

"The Cut Cut Cut Plan," or CCCP for short

This actually makes 100% sense and is the best explanation I've heard yet.
posted by Room 641-A at 3:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

Vanity Fair: “A Different Level of Crazy”: Is Civil War Breaking Out in The Wall Street Journal Over the Editorial Board’s Coverage of Mueller?

As another reporter told me, “We could disprove half the stuff” the opinion writers “are saying if they just read our own reporting. It’s like living in some alternate universe.”

posted by Existential Dread at 3:56 PM on November 1, 2017 [62 favorites]

srboisvert: "Fun fact: In England the words "Mad" and "Angry" are not used interchangeably."

The Angry-ness of King George.
posted by Chrysostom at 3:58 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

I'm excited about the current Tax bill negotiations because a whole lot of people don't care much about what happens to others but when morons start digging around in their wallet shit gets real for them pretty damn fast.

Tax reform hits every single person almost right away in a way that health insurance doesn't. The backlash/whiplash potential on this is as big as it gets.

I would be worried if I thought the Republican's had any financial/political chops or if they had been planning their strategy for years in anticipation of this moment but....

Instead they have been watching fox news and promising American oligarchs their heart's desires.

Remember oligarchs are the people who buy forged vintage wine bottles. They are not smarter than the rest of us. Just luckier.

Now even the oligarchs are finding out they probably just bought another crate of vinegar.
posted by srboisvert at 3:59 PM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

"The Cut Cut Cut Plan," or CCCP for short

No man can too knotheaded for his country!
posted by octobersurprise at 4:03 PM on November 1, 2017

so the three cuts in The Cut Cut Cut Act:
cutting mortgage interest tax deduction
cutting 401k max contribution
cutting state and local tax deduction

Losing my state tax deduction as a self-employed writer in Washington is a huge deal for me unless they start breaking that down into sub-categories or something. If they try to do a broad stroke of "state taxes," then that kills my biggest deduction by far. Part of me is waiting to find out what all this really means, because it can't be that simple...except this is the Republican Congressional majority and the Twitler regime, so of course it could be even simpler and dumber than I expect.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:09 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

oligarchs are the people who buy forged vintage wine bottles. They are not smarter than the rest of us. Just luckier.

or nastier
posted by philip-random at 4:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

While we're worried about those deduction, scuttlebutt on the Hill is that the tax plan will be a hidden ACA repeal. So we're gonna have to do this shit AGAIN.
posted by Justinian at 4:12 PM on November 1, 2017 [36 favorites]

Hey AutumnHeart, please report back on seeing Al! Would love to hear about it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

the problem is it's spelled Kut Kut Kut

That’s literally the C word in Dutch, and translates roughly as “fuck fuck fuck”. Not a bad name for this act.
posted by monospace at 4:14 PM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

FWIW, my guess on the "hidden ACA repeal" is that they will slip in language zeroing out the mandate penalties.
posted by Justinian at 4:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Idk what timeline this is but wow if Metal Gear Solid 2 is not one of the most prescient pieces of media for this stuff.

We have a social media website that has done studies in the past on how to manipulate its users' emotional states (700,000 people!) AND it's allowing a geo-political adversary to manipulate groups of people to have armed, potentially violent rallies.

What the fuck? This is a foreign government organizing two dissident groups to potentially fight each other, on a platform that has been known to manipulate the emotions of its users. That's fucking ridiculous. I'd be seizing Facebook's servers immediately over something like this.
posted by gucci mane at 4:19 PM on November 1, 2017 [67 favorites]

FWIW, my guess on the "hidden ACA repeal" is that they will slip in language zeroing out the mandate penalties.

Block granting Medicaid and then letting its purchasing power deflate is the true goal.
posted by Talez at 4:19 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

FWIW, my guess on the "hidden ACA repeal" is that they will slip in language zeroing out the mandate penalties.

Your guess is extremely consistent with: Kevin Brady on whether ACA's individual mandate will be repealed in tax bill: "stayed tuned." [sic]

I cannot imagine that these idiots really think coupling health care and taxes is a good idea when they've spent the entire year failing to do health care, but here we are.
posted by zachlipton at 4:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

Vanity Fair: “A Different Level of Crazy”: Is Civil War Breaking Out in The Wall Street Journal Over the Editorial Board’s Coverage of Mueller?
As another reporter told me, “We could disprove half the stuff” the opinion writers “are saying if they just read our own reporting. It’s like living in some alternate universe.”

That's because Gigot kicked out the folks who wouldn't toe the pro-Trump line: Conflict Over Trump Forces Out an Opinion Editor at The Wall Street Journal

WSJ would be loads better if they axed the opinion page altogether. Finance guys are assholes, but at least they're generally somewhat reality based.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

For the first time in my life I'm comfortably middle class and have more than enough to make ends meet. I'm happy to pay more taxes, honestly. I just want that money to go toward people who have less than me, not people who have more than me. So like, hell yeah I'm going to be mad if I have to pay more taxes so a 1%er can buy another private jet. Which I feel very, very confident is what the "Cut Cut Cut Plan" actually has in mind.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 4:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [30 favorites]

a 1%er can buy another private jet

That's the thing though. They're not going to buy a jet. A jet being built would stimulate the economy and actually create jobs. They're just going to put another zero on the account and hoard the wealth. It's just sport at this point I swear.
posted by Talez at 4:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [54 favorites]

scaryblackdeath, I suspect (but am not certain, the Republicans have not presented a bill to the American people yet) that as a self-employed person you'd still be able to deduct the paid WA B&O tax on your schedule C. Surely the Republicans don't mean to remove SALT deductions for small businesses ... but I suppose this is the year to not under-estimate the GOP's desire to hit every one on the path to tax cuts for the rich.
posted by stowaway at 4:26 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

For those of you who've occasionally been moved to fond thoughts of the neoliberal-technocrat center by events of the past year, here's a reminder of just why we need to defeat them the very moment we're done putting down actually-existing fascism: prime apologist for the reprehensible/gullible brownnoser Farhad Manjoo (I know, big surprise) with a New York Times piece entitled, I shit thee nay, "The Upside of Being Ruled by the Five Tech Giants."

Its premise? "What if it’s not that bad that so much economic, social and political power is held by Apple, Amazon, Google, Facebook and Microsoft?"

Either working for Slate permanently broke his brain so that he can only #slatepitch, or more disturbingly, that's why he got hired there in the first place.
posted by leotrotsky at 4:30 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Surely the Republicans don't mean to remove SALT deductions for small businesses

Except within the last few weeks I've seen a lot of articles referencing to debate among Republicans about exactly that. And yeah, as you noted, we don't know where things are at with this whole thing, so we don't know where that debate ended. But it sure was pushed.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:31 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Trump signed the resolution killing the CFPB's arbitration rule

I do not understand why there is not a multi-million dollar ad campaign that is simply just "Donald Trump and the Republicans in Congress just made sure that you can never sue your bank no matter how badly they cheat you."
posted by zachlipton at 4:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [93 favorites]

I haven't seen any articles about removing that deduction for businesses, only for individuals. But of course we have no idea what foul brew they are cooking up!
posted by stowaway at 4:42 PM on November 1, 2017

With all the cutcutcuting and popadopolopadingdonging going on these last few days, I worry there's a degenerative memetic virus floating around. Be careful out there, everybody. Take your Vitamin C C Co Co Covfefe

Pontydopolous
posted by Roommate at 4:48 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

The Intercept, Rachel M. Cohen and Ryan Grim, Steve Bannon Tried to Recruit Teachers Union to Trump’s Agenda While in the White House. In which Bannon met with AFT President Randi Weingarten back in March:

He was looking, Weingarten said, for some common ground that could assist him in realigning the two parties, his long-term goal in politics.“I think he sees the world as working people versus elites. And on some level, he’s thought about educators as working-class folks. But what he doesn’t do is think about the other side of educators, as people who fiercely believe in equality and inclusion. It isn’t an either/or philosophy. The [Martin Luther] King philosophy of jobs and justice is not the Bannon philosophy, let’s put it that way,” she said. “He’s trying to figure out where the friction is, and how to change the alignment. I think that’s really what he was trying to do.”

Hearing Bannon attack elites, including the types of hedge fund Democrats who fund the charter school movement, in the same way she would, was surreal. “He hates crony capitalism,” Weingarten said. “The same kinds of things [we say], you could hear out of his mouth, and that’s why it’s so — you sit there in a surreal way, saying, ‘How can you sit right next to all these elites?’”

Bannon hates "elites" so much, he got an (alleged) billionaire elected President and relelentless champions a party that wants to, say, destroy unions and take health care away from the working class.
posted by zachlipton at 4:50 PM on November 1, 2017 [27 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: "CHAIN MIGRATION must end now! Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil. NOT ACCEPTABLE!" -7:03 PM - 1 Nov 2017
posted by christopherious at 4:50 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

"chain migration" is an... interesting phrase
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:53 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

"CHAIN MIGRATION must end now! Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil. NOT ACCEPTABLE!"

As a syllogism, this falls short.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:58 PM on November 1, 2017 [6 favorites]

Chain migration is a real thing. It's a sociological phenomenon, not a US policy. It's the fact that immigrants tend to join established communities, rather than just picking a place to move to at random. And the fucking thing that makes me want to scream-vomit all night is that the visa lottery program he was raging about earlier today was set up specifically to counteract the effects of chain migration and encourage immigration from countries, like Uzbekistan, that didn't have large established US communities. Aaaagghh
posted by theodolite at 5:00 PM on November 1, 2017 [51 favorites]

I assume he just learned the phrase "chain migration" from one of the Steves twenty-five minutes ago.
posted by EarBucket at 5:01 PM on November 1, 2017 [42 favorites]

Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil.
as proven by his own immigrant grandfather...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:01 PM on November 1, 2017 [49 favorites]

Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil. NOT ACCEPTABLE!"

It's as if they love and value their families. How weird is that - it's almost as though they were people.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:03 PM on November 1, 2017 [42 favorites]

I assume he just learned the phrase "chain migration" from one of the Steves twenty-five minutes ago.

No - he gets all his information from Fox News, and Steve Doocy is on in the mornings. ;-)
posted by zakur at 5:04 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

"Chain migration," in the context of anti-immigration folks in the US, is a fancy way of saying "people want to live in the same hemisphere as their immediate relatives? How dare they!"
posted by zachlipton at 5:04 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Heh. I've remarked previously that basically every person I've encountered (either IRL or online) who was strongly opposed to illegal immigration turned out to also be strongly opposed to legal immigration (at least for non-white people). Sure, I don't doubt that there are probably some people out there who are strongly anti-illegal immigration and pro-legal immigration, but like the mythical anti-abortion and pro-contraception/pro-sex-ed people, they're either too small in number or too small in political power to really matter. So, whenever you hear that someone's really, really against illegal immigration, I think you can just go ahead and assume they're not gonna be stoked about legal immigration either.
posted by mhum at 5:06 PM on November 1, 2017 [28 favorites]

Oh I get what chain migration is, I just have a suspicion that Trump's use of the phrase is not so subtly dehumanizing.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:07 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Chain migration in the Rightwing Nutjobosphere is basically the cockroach theory of immigration; if you let one brown person in you'll soon have a bunch of brown people (excuse the analogy, but this is how they think). It's a train horn, not a dogwhistle.
posted by chris24 at 5:10 PM on November 1, 2017 [18 favorites]

He's been using chain migration as a phrase for at least a couple of months.
posted by zarq at 5:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil. NOT ACCEPTABLE!"

Trump's Mirror is working so hard right now I'm worried it's going to shatter.
posted by mmoncur at 5:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [35 favorites]

From the Forbes article a couple of hours ago:

The tax reform proposal’s reduction to homeowner tax subsidies could lead to more people deciding to rent homes because it may be a lower-cost alternative to purchasing. Although the proposal lacks specifics, it does not appear to reduce the tax subsidies afforded to owners of residential rental real estate. Rental property owners may continue to deduct interest paid to finance the purchase of rental properties and can deduct state and local property taxes. These items are not considered itemized deductions; instead, they are deductions in computing net rental income. The disallowance of the state and local tax deduction under the Trump plan only applies to an individual taxpayer’s itemized deductions. Given rental property owners will still receive the federal tax savings from both property mortgage interest and real estate taxes, the Republican proposal creates a stark difference in the tax subsidies between owner-occupied homes and rental properties.

Additionally, unlike homeowners, rental property owners receive tax savings through the deductibility of maintenance costs and depreciation. The rental property owner may also avoid tax upon the sale of the property if it is exchanged for another property. The Trump proposals may also further benefit rental property owners through the reduced tax rate of 25% on partnerships and other pass-through entities commonly used in the real estate industry.

Bear with me here, as this may sound really dumb. It's been a long month.

(Checks calendar. Huh. It's no longer October. And, yet, with Trump, November is already a long month. Also, apologies to whomever posted the Forbes link. I neglected to open the comment in a new tab to give credit.)

Does this not sound like the system can be so easily gamed? I can sell my house to my parents, who then rent to us. They get some really nice tax benefits which will help them more than me because they make considerably more than us. There may even be a possibility of selling it below market value to reduce the property taxes "they" are paying. Once the mortgage is paid off, they sell back for another incredibly low price (to once again lower property taxes). Or, if they die before mortgage is paid, the house is in my name with no taxes because of the inheritance tax exemption. (My house is definitely not worth millions.)

For even more fun, they could sell me their house and we do the same set-up. Then, there are no taxes upon sale if we just exchange the properties?

Am I missing something here?

This is me being incredibly generous. If everything I said actually worked, I'm pretty sure that loophole would be closed soon enough. BUT that loophole would only be closed for people like me, way down the food chain. I am sure it would be left open for "realtors" and REITs and anyone who has megabucks and are "real" landlords (read: Trump and his friends). It almost seems like that loophole is there entirely for them.

The Trump proposals may also further benefit rental property owners through the reduced tax rate of 25% on partnerships

I am also curious how easy it would be to set up a partnership between spouses to get around this juicy little tax break.

Am I crazy for seeing some glaring loopholes? 2017 notwithstanding?
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 5:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil. NOT ACCEPTABLE!

Chain migration: it's even infected the White House!
posted by Rykey at 5:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

A mental health request: Could we please skip additional speculation about 45 either starting a war or the US getting into a civil war? I'm sure we can agree that 45 can do any number of and/or help trigger any number of additional horrible things. Even so, I pray thee gentle MetFites to consider refraining from exploring additional gory nightmarish shitstorms because A. It's an unnecessary downer and B. There's plenty of actually happened (or is actually happening right this moment) 45-related shitstorms to ponder. Many thanks for your consideration.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:21 PM on November 1, 2017 [16 favorites]

I honestly want to know how one DV winner gets supposedly 23 people over cause with the waiting times for most family members at the USCIS stretching into the better part of a decade and in some cases, multiple decades, it smells like complete fucking bullshit.

Not to mention, a) it can't actually extend very far since a PR can only bring in literal children and unmarried children over 21 and b) he was the DV winner so chain migration wouldn't have blocked him.
posted by Talez at 5:30 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Does this not sound like the system can be so easily gamed?

Also, isn't an immediate (rather than phased in) but temporary drop in corporate taxes just an extreme invitation for shenanigans? Like -- quick let's shove of bunch of money through this loophole before it closes?
posted by puddledork at 5:31 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Yeah the general theme of this trainwreck of a legislative "plan" is to have a two-tier system with folks who can incorporate all their shit paying one low rate and the rest of us getting hosed.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:31 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

I mean not that that wasn't happening already but it's more explicit now.

(which is the theme of 2017 anyway I guess)
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:33 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

In all seriousness, Trump starting a war is more likely than him passing this tax bill, so I don't think you can take it off the table.
posted by ryanrs at 5:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [22 favorites]

And now the real loyaty tests begin:

Leader of pro-Trump Super Pac had mortgage on Paul Manafort property (Ben Jacobs, The Guardian)

The leader of a pro-Trump Super Pac once held a mortgage on one of the properties owned by Paul Manafort which federal prosecutors are trying to seize.

Tom Barrack, a close friend of Donald Trump’s who leads the Rebuilding America Now Super Pac, made a secured loan tied to Manafort’s house in the Hamptons in July 2004.

posted by Room 641-A at 5:37 PM on November 1, 2017 [33 favorites]

That's the thing though. They're not going to buy a jet. A jet being built would stimulate the economy and actually create jobs. They're just going to put another zero on the account and hoard the wealth. It's just sport at this point I swear.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't own a limited edition ballistic armor biometric access watch safe with time lockout, auto-turners/winders GPS tracking and mobile app yet then.
posted by srboisvert at 5:38 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

certainly we must be able to talk about whether Trump is moving the country towards a war, with North Korea any other country.

Realistically, showing concrete links to things that are getting done and saying "This looks bad because of A, B and C reasons." is usually okay. Putting together a whole bunch of speculation and/or terrible sources to tell people to start building bomb shelters or saying goodbye to their families is not okay. I understand that not everyone feels that they can either

- be that dispassionate of a writer, or
- be that dispassionate of a reader

And I would also suggest that people who feel strongly about this meta-topic bring it to this MetaTalk thread.
posted by jessamyn at 5:38 PM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

Now I get it. It's called the Cut Cut Cut Act because Jason Voorhees is now the GOP's official mascot.

Never uses healthcare, hates premarital sex, loves hacking up poor people with a machete. It checks out!
posted by delfin at 5:39 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't own a limited edition ballistic armor biometric access watch safe with time lockout, auto-turners/winders GPS tracking and mobile app yet then.

All I see there is an advertisement with the implicit reminder of "Yes, your guns belong in a fucking safe."
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:42 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

Popodopoulis
Popadopolous
Oppo Papadroppoulos
Papadoc
popadopolopadingdonging
Pontydopolous

oh, I get it -- his name is Greek. that is hilarious.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:42 PM on November 1, 2017 [43 favorites]

Thanks for OnceUponATime's excellent collection of links above. I wish the US were more like Finland in any number of ways, including this from one of those links:

...unlike its neighbors, Helsinki reckons it has the tools to effectively resist any information attack from its eastern neighbor. Finnish officials believe their country’s strong public education system, long history of balancing Russia, and a comprehensive government strategy allow it to deflect coordinated propaganda and disinformation.

“The best way to respond is less by correcting the information, and more about having your own positive narrative and sticking to it,” Jed Willard, director of the Franklin Delano Roosevelt Center for Global Engagement at Harvard, told Foreign Policy. Willard, who is currently working for the Swedish government, was hired by Finnish officials to help them develop a public diplomacy program to understand and identify why false information goes viral and how to counter propaganda.
posted by Bella Donna at 5:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

it's not just that he's going to start a war - it's that he's probably going to fuck it up in a way that even the knee jerk patriots aren't going to tolerate

i mean this is a guy who thinks the best thing to call a tax bill is the cut cut cut act

can you imagine any other president ever saying anything so puerile and absurd? even reagan in his twilight years wasn't this insipid

god, i remember the good old days - when the bad people were halfway challenging and had to lie a blue streak to keep their followers in line, because if they didn't lie well enough, eventually even they would turn on them

this is our karma for being such stupid, vapid, grasping creatures - no, not all of us, maybe not even most of us, but enough of us

if you thought the long national nightmare was bad wait until we get into the long national coma
posted by pyramid termite at 5:45 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess you don't own a limited edition ballistic armor biometric access watch safe with time lockout, auto-turners/winders GPS tracking and mobile app

The most expensive safe is $114,000. Not a typo. But the best part is this: PLEASE NOTE: Shipping charges will be calculated and charged separately. Damn.
posted by Room 641-A at 5:47 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Out-of-work miners cite many reasons... there’s no income during training and no guarantee of a job...

Welcome to most of the rest of us.
posted by juiceCake at 5:48 PM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

Chris Hayes says Trump is holding firm on the Cut Cut Cut Plan nomenclature! This is gonna be epic.
posted by Justinian at 5:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Actual good-ish news on the nuclear war front for once, with suggestions that a tunnel collapse at the NK nuclear test site back in September could seriously impact their nuclear program. It's somewhat thinly sourced - all articles seem to be quoting the same Japanese TV station, and it's difficult to get solid information.

Of course this is a significant tragedy if 200 NK workers were indeed killed, and NK still has a bunch of nukes, and the risk of radiation release is bad...but at least it has the potential to derail the cycle of escalation. An adult president would probably be able to make something positive of this opening.
posted by allegedly at 5:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

The objections to chain immigration are deeply rooted in racism and are not specific only to the United States. It's a way for white english speaking people to say I wish there weren't so many non-white non-English people moving here because I am a bigot while thinking that they are disguising their bigotry. I've had white New Zealanders complain to me about how it's not that they mind that the Chinese are moving here but then they bring their whole family (gasp!), and that definitely shouldn't be allowed for reasons...

They apparently don't see any irony in saying this to me, even though I am an immigrant who initially arrived on a family visa. They don't even miss a beat. It's because I'm white and speak english, that's all. When people whine about chain immigration in the US, or the UK, or Australia, or New Zealand, they're not thinking about people like me because its just racism sitting in what passes for the drivers seat of their brain.

For a real taste of cognitive dissonance I once had an English woman, who had immigrated to NZ by way of Spain, complaining about all the immigrants taking over the UK and NZ. So one immigrant complaining to another immigrant about all the damn immigrants.
posted by supercrayon at 5:57 PM on November 1, 2017 [57 favorites]

Popodopoulis
Popadopolous
Oppo Papadroppoulos
Papadoc
popadopolopadingdonging
Pontydopolous

oh, I get it -- his name is Greek. that is hilarious.

In fairness, I think the first two are good-faith attempts to spell a name that, according to US English orthographic conventions, could actually be spelled that way. I mean, I made sure to double-check before posting to avoid putting the "ou" in the wrong spot, but not everyone is a pedant and words with recurring letters are notoriously hard to proofread onscreen.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:57 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

And "Pontydopolous" was a reference to the movie "Pontypool". Does that absolve it of the charge of xenophobia? I don't know, because I wouldn't have made that charge in the first place.
posted by uosuaq at 6:02 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

So PBS' Frontline did a 2-parter called Putin's Revenge. Part 1 ran on October 25; Part 2 is running today. FYI for those, like me, who didn't know about this. "FRONTLINE tells the inside story of how Vladimir Putin came to see the United States as an enemy — and why he decided to target an American election."
posted by Bella Donna at 6:04 PM on November 1, 2017 [19 favorites]

@damianpaletta: Brady says tax bill will only have TEMPORARY cut in the corp rate from 35% to 20%. Couldn't not make permanent cut comply with Senate rules

@JHWeissmann (Slate)
If this is true, means the wheels have totally come off this effort. We're descending into 'pass anything' mode, like w/ ACA repeal
- A temporary corporate cut would be the 'skinny repeal' of tax policy, to put it in context.
posted by chris24 at 6:07 PM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

> "And 'Pontydopolous' was a reference to the movie 'Pontypool'. Does that absolve it of the charge of xenophobia?"

No.
posted by kyrademon at 6:11 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

I like the sound of wheels off mode before the bill is even released
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

it's not just that he's going to start a war - it's that he's probably going to fuck it up in a way that even the knee jerk patriots aren't going to tolerate

Already there. We're running amok in Central Africa (the region and the nation!) and fucking it up in grand fashion.

Setting up an operation that had our citizen-soldiers waddling unprepared into an obvious ambush, with no contingency plan at all beyond "Hope to God the French can do something!"

Navy Seals strangling Green Berets, literally!

Trump promised to let The Generals run the war(s)! That the Generals are incompetent doctrinaire fuckups without strong civilian oversight as to the nature of the conflict and who's in charge of it has been established since Lincoln was in office.

Going to get much worse before it gets better. Pakistan is already telling us to pack up and ship out of Afghanistan, as they consider it theirs, and the Russians are funding, fueling and arming the Taliban.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

I like the sound of wheels off mode before the bill is even released

It's one thing when the car breaks down as you pull out of the dealership, but to have the gas tank explode as you walk onto the lot is... impressive.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

Man, working for Slate is like a scarlet letter at this point.
posted by Yowser at 6:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

On a positive note for Republicans, who say they want less government; they certainly have that in Trump.

However on the subject of Pakistan, they don't get to tell us anything. If the Taliban are now processing their own opium, then Russians who deal in drugs, will certainly do business with them, and do the business of destroying the EU with it, and themselves while they are at it. Russia is a huge landmass but not such a huge economy. With the price of oil in the tank, and Russia supporting allies in the Middle East, I doubt they are funding, fueling, and arming the Taliban. Loose Saudi money does that kind of stuff, and other nations who benefit from that kind of social disruption, who believe in that kind of religious practice. Russia has its own bed to set on fire with regards to practitioners of violent religious fanaticism. Everybody knows that arming wackos with relatives in your backyard, is an unwise practice.
posted by Oyéah at 6:38 PM on November 1, 2017

Regarding the possible NK nuclear testing tunnel collapse,
"and the risk of radiation release is bad"

.... yes, but it will also be extremely informative if our sniffer planes can get a sample of the isotope blend. It will tell us a whole lot about the design of the device and the yield, which will tell us exactly how far along in the process they are. Do they have a boosted Pu239 device? Is it a true Teller-Ulam hydrogen bomb? Have they found a new, novel method? From their released photographs, they have a novel physical design ("Mr. Peanut") which doesn't entirely make sense unless it's either not exactly what they claim it is, or a mock-up. If their test site vents, we'll know the answers to some of that.
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 6:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Regarding the Mother Jones story, the cynic in me first wants proof that the access to Trump Org's GoDaddy account was actually the result of a hack rather than the account simply shared covertly by Trump's people. I mean they are so deep in Russian ties at this point that it wouldn't hurt to at least investigate the possibility, i.e. based on what the subdomains and malware were ultimately used for.
posted by p3t3 at 6:59 PM on November 1, 2017

Ah yes sweet sweet chain immigration.

That'd be the totally sweet deal where I got to come here to be with my wife and not work for more than a year while my green card was sorted out. Costing me thousands and thousands of dollars and more than a year off the tail end earnings of my career plus also a couple thousand in legal bills.

American immigration is already barbarically anti-family and anti-marriage.
posted by srboisvert at 7:05 PM on November 1, 2017 [41 favorites]

been nixing some magnet derails folks, maybe reload the thread?
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:10 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Buzzfeed cross references the just released Russia bot twitter accounts with Michael Flynn's retweets.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:16 PM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

ELECTIONS NEWS

** NJ gov -- Monmouth poll has Murphy up 53-39. Simple poll average is Murphy +15.5.

** Odds & ends:

-- In the VA AG race, WP poll has Dem Herring up 51-43.

-- Updated VA House of Delegates ratings from Decision Desk. 8 move to D, 8 move to R, but if you look closely, the left movers are mostly Tossup=>Lean D, whereas the right movers are more Likely=>Solid (i.e., less impact).

posted by Chrysostom at 7:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [15 favorites]

Catching up on today's news, I at least got a bitter laugh out of the "Cut Cut Cut Act" name. I assume it's because he's fantasizing about it being a catchphrase at his rallies. "Cut Cut Cut" can be declared/chanted with the same cadence as "Lock Her Up"! (I'm sure he gets extreme enjoyment at how applause/cheering crests by the third word.) (Oh God and now I've probably put deeper thought into this name than he did. Gah.)
posted by mixedmetaphors at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Thank god I found the degaussing thread
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:28 PM on November 1, 2017 [44 favorites]

I've probably put deeper thought into this name than he did.

Confirmed. Trump just does best with repetition and single-syllable words.
posted by ryanrs at 7:44 PM on November 1, 2017

A non-Slate opinion that tax cuts are having issues.

@chrislhayes:
I know we’re all focused on other things, but the GOP’s signature legislative proposal is kinda maybe imploding
posted by chris24 at 7:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [26 favorites]

Nobody thought tax reform could be so complicated.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:55 PM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: "The United States will be immediately implementing much tougher Extreme Vetting Procedures. The safety of our citizens comes first!"
(10:19 PM - 1 Nov 2017)
posted by christopherious at 7:57 PM on November 1, 2017

Oh man, I already love Lawrence O'Donnell, but he was in especially fine form on his show just now with a righteous rant against Kelly and his Civil War "compromise" bullshit. He really got into it when we went off on Lee being a racist, slave-owning traitor who was responsible for the deaths of more American soldiers than Hitler.

I have chills.
posted by Salieri at 8:00 PM on November 1, 2017 [51 favorites]

GOP is STILL trying to kill the ACA.

@aslavitt: BREAKING: In DC today. Everyone is talking about how the tax bill tomorrow will be a hidden ACA repeal.

(Twitter thread.)
posted by jferg at 8:00 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

The United States will be immediately implementing much tougher Extreme Vetting Procedures.

This tweet establishes... what, exactly? Is there a new executive action? Was a law passed? Did a cabinet-level agency adopt a new set of written MTEVPs somebody can point to?
posted by Rykey at 8:06 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

The United States, man. Don't you get it? The United States are taking action.
posted by perhapses at 8:08 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

It establishes that he's spewing random bullshit instead of doing his goddamn job.
posted by Justinian at 8:08 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

@stuartpstevens:
Irony is that Papadopoulos lied his way into an indictment in effort to protect these folks who now deny his existence.

@saletan: Retweeted Stuart Stevens
2D chess: Mueller released the plea to show collusion.
3D: He did it so Trump would attack this witness, teaching others not to expect help.
posted by chris24 at 8:14 PM on November 1, 2017 [74 favorites]

3D: He did it so Trump would attack this witness, teaching others not to expect help.

And maybe attack the witness, adding more obstruction of Justice charges?
posted by Room 641-A at 8:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

This tweet establishes... what, exactly?

I can't decide if it's Trump's declaration of, as he might say, either marital law or marshal law.
posted by juiceCake at 8:27 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Marsupial law.
posted by perhapses at 8:29 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

Hours after Trump calls US justice system 'a laughingstock,' White House denies he ever did
posted by EarBucket at 8:29 PM on November 1, 2017 [50 favorites]

This tweet establishes... what, exactly?

Carte blanche for Border Patrol to be even more assholish than usual.
posted by monospace at 8:31 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump:
Great mtg w/ @Cabinet today. Tomorrow, I will be announcing the new head of the Fed. I think you will be extremely impressed by this person! [Pics]

(Who is that caught in mid-yawn/sneeze, to the right in photo #2?)
posted by christopherious at 8:40 PM on November 1, 2017

(Who is that caught in mid-yawn/sneeze, to the right in photo #2?)

Judging by the hairline it looks like Sonny Perdue, Secretary of Agriculture.
posted by jedicus at 8:45 PM on November 1, 2017

@realDonaldTrump: NYC terrorist was happy as he asked to hang ISIS flag in his hospital room. He killed 8 people, badly injured 12. SHOULD GET DEATH PENALTY!

How to fuck up a criminal prosecution, in one tweet.
posted by zachlipton at 8:46 PM on November 1, 2017 [90 favorites]

He knows perfectly well the US justice system is a laughingstock... he's been laughing at its inability to punish him for his criminal acts for decades...
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:48 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Hours after Trump calls US justice system 'a laughingstock,' White House denies he ever did

This means that in his tweets tomorrow morning, Trump will double down on his remarks. ('cos Trump would never want to be associated with anything considered a joke, and he has the greatest respect for the US judicial system /s).
posted by Doktor Zed at 8:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

> Hours after Trump calls US justice system 'a laughingstock,' White House denies he ever did

The White House on Wednesday flatly denied that President Donald Trump had ever called the American criminal justice system "a joke and a laughingstock."

The denial came just hours after Trump said precisely that during a televised Cabinet meeting.

Reporters were stunned that the press secretary would deny the president's own words so soon after the president said them.

Stunned? Really? Are they not watching the daily parade of lies emanating from the press room podium? How much different is it when the lie is so immediate and so easily disproved?

If they're really stunned, maybe these reporters should try to adjust to the world around them a little more and get angry that they're being treated like chumps. Maybe they could hold up iPads with the laughingstock comments playing so that SHS has to deny what she's seeing right in front of her eyes. But "stunned"? Come on.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:55 PM on November 1, 2017 [63 favorites]

I know that not looking in on one of these threads for twelve hours is like spending an equivalent time on the planet in Interstellar and when you come back you find that a decade has passed, but I just wanted to drop this in:

The rhetorical point is that 33 percent is really, really low.

Canadians of a certain age will remember with polarized feelings our prime minister of thirty years ago, one Brian Mulroney, who was struggling to keep his sizable chin above water and still in the double digits by the end of his second term: the summer of 1993 found him with 12% approval, 83% disapproval. The Donald still has a goal to shoot for.

(I was, incidentally, among the 83%.)
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:06 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

Since we're talking about a laughingstock of a justice system and a President who wants to send someone to Guantanamo, let's talk about how the military justice system is working out, because it's horrifying, and this just happened. Spencer Ackerman, Gitmo Judge Convicts U.S. General—Because He Stood Up for Detainee Rights

What's going on here is that there have been problems for years with the government spying on communications between detainees and their lawyers, including a listening device in a fake smoke detector and the FBI turning a defense technical advisor into an informant. In a different case, the civilian lawyers for Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, accused in the USS Cole bombing, have some reason to believe their privileged communications were monitored, but they can't even say why, because that itself is classified. Finding that they could not do their jobs under such conditions, unable to even tell their client why they believed their communications weren't private, they quit.

Brigadier General John Baker is the Marine Corps second highest ranking lawyer and serves at the Chief of Defense Counsel for the Guantanamo military commissions. He permitted the civilian lawyers to quit. As a result, the judge has held him, a one-star Marine general, in contempt and ordered him to be confined for 21 days.

When politicians talk about "send him to Gitmo," this is the process they're talking about sending people into. This is not justice.
posted by zachlipton at 9:08 PM on November 1, 2017 [94 favorites]

Lawfare has had great coverage of the Al-Nashiri show trial; here's Sarah Grant's roundup of events through Tuesday which led to this most recent development.
posted by shenderson at 9:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

How to fuck up a criminal prosecution, in one tweet.

You know, I've never really cottoned to the idea that he's trying to get impeached. But lately, it's getting harder and harder to ignore the possibility.
posted by greermahoney at 9:19 PM on November 1, 2017

>How to fuck up a criminal prosecution, in one tweet.

You know, I've never really cottoned to the idea that he's trying to get impeached. But lately, it's getting harder and harder to ignore the possibility.

Nah. If you tried to explain to him how that tweet is a fuck-up, he'd never get it.
posted by rifflesby at 9:22 PM on November 1, 2017 [10 favorites]

Truly, he is the apotheosis of pig-ignorant loudmouth dicks.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:22 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

scaryblackdeath: "Look at that bucket. That's hardly a haul at all. Even if that's after he allegedly took away half of her haul, that picture still implies he took her trick-or-treating for all of five minutes.
"

Jeez there are just mini candies in the bucket. You'd think the Trump neighbourhood would be handing out not just full size bars but like 750g Toblerones, those football sized Kinder eggs and Apple watches.

Also now I'm kind of curious how the secret service handles trick or treating for protectants; maybe that explains the dismal haul.
posted by Mitheral at 9:41 PM on November 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

It's generally considered ill-advised for Presidents to weigh in on criminal prosecutions in progress. At the very least, it can screw up the chances of seating an impartial jury, which is already difficult in a case like Saipov's.

And the thing is, unlike Nixon or Obama or whoever, you know Trump is not going to take it back and shut his fucking mouth about this. As soon as anybody criticizes him, he is going to double and triple down on his idiocy and be louder and louder, thus making it all worse.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:43 PM on November 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

"Because he's the POTUS and he's already said they're guilty and should be killed, thus swaying potential jurors?"

Yep, he's "contaminated" or "tainted" the jury pool across the whole entire country. Typically if you've got a sensational crime committed in (say) Chicago and there's been such a media circus that the entire metro region has strong opinions on the case and it's hard to seat an impartial jury, the remedy is to move the trial downstate, where jurors won't have had the same saturation coverage or emotional involvement. When the motherfucking president of the whole goddamned country broadcasts his opinion that the guy is guilty and should be killed, he basically makes it impossible to seat a jury, and any guilty verdict is going to be subject to many appeals on the grounds that the jury was prejudiced against the perp by the president.

This is why mayors and governors are really fucking careful about speaking on sensational cases that have yet to go to trial, occasionally to their PR detriment when it's pretty clear that some egregious crime needs condemnation but they can't do that without tainting the jury pool. But our president is a moron, with no idea how the law works or of the powers of his office, so every time he wants someone prosecuted he screams about it on Twitter and comes close to rendering them unprosecutable. So much winning!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [87 favorites]

Reporters were stunned that the press secretary would deny the president's own words so soon after the president said them.

Stunned? Really? Are they not watching the daily parade of lies emanating from the press room podium? How much different is it when the lie is so immediate and so easily disproved?

I just saw a brief back and forth between Anderson Cooper and Jim Acosta about this.

They show the clip of Trump speaking.
They show the press conference where SHS throws out a whopper.
Anderson Cooper says; but that's not what he said!
Jim Acosta says; Anderson, we rely on SHS to provide us with the truth.

It was a thing of beauty.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 9:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

Jeez there are just mini candies in the bucket. You'd think the Trump neighbourhood would be handing out not just full size bars but like 750g Toblerones, those football sized Kinder eggs and Apple watches.

They didn't get rich giving out full-size candy bars.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:45 PM on November 1, 2017 [20 favorites]

Can I sell my house to myself and be my own landlord?

It's probably easier if you sell your house to your LLC, or set up an LLC to buy it in the first place. Then the LLC can be your landlord.

Many houses in my area are (legitimately) owned by shell companies, mostly because the (extremely wealthy) owners don't want their names/addresses to be quite so easily discovered in the (public) property assessor's database. Also, many (legitimate) owners of rental property put that property in an LLC for liability protection. Either scenario is fairly routine around here, and by itself wouldn't raise any red flags.

It doesn't seem like much of a stretch to use an LLC as a shadow landlord for tax purposes. If the homeowner's interest deduction goes away but the landlord's doesn't, I expect we'll see a lot more of this.
posted by toxic at 9:45 PM on November 1, 2017 [13 favorites]

I kind of want to go to bat for Oppo Papadroppoulos, in that it's a pun that would still work if he was named, say, George Popper. Then again, the context worries me: I'm going to guess that it wasn't in the context of the Steele dossier, and if that's the case, then it's not really a pun.
posted by Merus at 9:46 PM on November 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Do the worm on the accropolis
Slamdance the cosmopolis
Enlighten the populace.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 9:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

Do the worm on the accropolis
Slamdance the cosmopolis
Enlighten the populace.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! I was trying to find a legitimate way to work this into an AskMe thread yesterday but realized that I was just feeling my oats.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:03 PM on November 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

"Because he's the POTUS and he's already said they're guilty and should be killed, thus swaying potential jurors?"

Adding to my previous comment ... this is why presidential (and gubernatorial) comments on mass shootings, terrorist attacks, etc., tend towards phrasing like, "We will use every resource available to bring those responsible to justice" and "I have faith in our excellent team of prosecutors who are working closely with state police to gather all the necessary evidence" and "I am confident that our legal process will result in justice for those who committed these heinous acts." And talk a lot about community strength and resilience. It's because when you're a community leader in a position of authority, you don't say, "John Q. Shooter is guilty as sin and we're going to give him the chair!" unless you want to guarantee a mistrial. The stock phrases are good stock phrases that reassure the community that normal processes of law are working as intended (and vigilante justice is not needed, and there are People In Charge who are Fixing Things), but they ALSO provide a way for government leaders to speak about a crime without tainting the jury pool.

There is seriously not one person in that West Wing who understands even the most basic principles of American government or law. Often when Trump is shooting himself in the foot there's some attempt at spin, but the times he's done this recently there's been nothing from the West Wing because they don't appear to know it's a problem.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:13 PM on November 1, 2017 [86 favorites]

Why would you listen to a young, unintelligent trust fund baby with no political knowledge or experience AND who has proven to be a business failure as well?

because you are an unintelligent trust fund baby with no political knowledge or experience AND who has proven to be a business failure as well.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 10:17 PM on November 1, 2017 [11 favorites]

the times he's done this recently there's been nothing from the West Wing because they don't appear to know it's a problem.

Well, and they don't care. They don't care what happens to Saipov; they just care about Looking Tough and keeping the fucking mouth-breathing ignoramus wingnuts in their cheering section all stoked up in racist faux-toughguy rage.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:18 PM on November 1, 2017 [14 favorites]

1970: Nixon says Charles Manson is guilty; Manson's lawyer requests mistrial, doesn't get it.
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Also now I'm kind of curious how the secret service handles trick or treating for protectants; maybe that explains the dismal haul.

Jr. dumped his USSS protection, citing privacy concerns. Afaik, no one bothered to comment on whether that applied to his family as well, but I'm guessing yes.
posted by xyzzy at 10:28 PM on November 1, 2017

It was reactivated days later.
posted by peeedro at 10:31 PM on November 1, 2017 [9 favorites]

I thought Don Jr. got his SS detail back after he took a secret hunting trip in Canada?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:32 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

What the hell was he hunting? Humans?
posted by Mitheral at 10:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

What the hell was he hunting? Humans?

Possibly specially-designed human-animal hybrid chimaeras but yes, probably humans.
posted by Rust Moranis at 10:40 PM on November 1, 2017 [23 favorites]

He traps his victims and harvests their hair gel. It's purely catch and release, though.
posted by mochapickle at 10:44 PM on November 1, 2017 [36 favorites]

zachlipton: I do not understand why there is not a multi-million dollar ad campaign that is simply just "Donald Trump and the Republicans in Congress just made sure that you can never sue your bank no matter how badly they cheat you."

Perhaps the Dems are still beholden to those same banks? According to Reuters last November:

Employees of the 17 largest bank holding companies and their subsidiaries have been sending [Clinton] $10 for every $1 they contributed to Trump, according to a Reuters analysis. In 2012, the same group contributed twice as much to Republican candidate Mitt Romney as it did to President Barack Obama’s re-election campaign.

posted by joedan at 10:52 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

the times he's done this recently there's been nothing from the West Wing because they don't appear to know it's a problem.
Well, and they don't care. They don't care what happens to Saipov; they just care about Looking Tough and keeping the f'ing mouth-breathing ignoramus wingnuts in their cheering section all stoked up in racist faux-toughguy rage.

I would have to see more evidence of strategic thinking from Trump before I assumed that he does this deliberately but I do think it's possible that on some level he understands that as long as he isn't actually concerned about, y'know, the course of justice, that deliberately and inappropriately interjecting himself into this process has potential benefits for him whatever the outcome.

If the accused is found guilty then Trump gets to look tough and, with a large section of the voting populace that doesn't pay attention to the way the system works, claim some credit. Whereas if his interference jeopardizes the outcome of the trial he can go in another direction and loudly and publicly attack the legitimacy of the courts -- a strategy he has used in the past and which it appears he is already beginning to escalate and which we can only expect more of as the Mueller investigation gets ever closer.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:55 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

AP, Hit list exposes Russian hacking beyond US elections

The hackers who upended the U.S. presidential election had ambitions well beyond Hillary Clinton’s campaign, targeting the emails of Ukrainian officers, Russian opposition figures, U.S. defense contractors and thousands of others of interest to the Kremlin, according to a previously unpublished digital hit list obtained by The Associated Press.

The list provides the most detailed forensic evidence yet of the close alignment between the hackers and the Russian government, exposing an operation that stretched back years and tried to break into the inboxes of 4,700 Gmail users across the globe — from the pope’s representative in Kiev to the punk band Pussy Riot in Moscow.

“It’s a wish list of who you’d want to target to further Russian interests,” said Keir Giles, director of the Conflict Studies Research Center in Cambridge, England, and one of five outside experts who reviewed the AP’s findings. He said the data was “a master list of individuals whom Russia would like to spy on, embarrass, discredit or silence.”

posted by zachlipton at 10:57 PM on November 1, 2017 [24 favorites]

SHS is a more competent speaker and sticks to the message -- but the message is frequently reprehensible, and she gives no sign of feeling this is so, which is chilling to see in any human.

I was astonished to find that she is only 35 years old!
She certainly channels the unhappiness, the bile, the disdain for truth, and the disgust-for-others that you usually only see in people who sit alone on their porch and yell obscenities at passersby.
posted by blueberry at 11:12 PM on November 1, 2017 [21 favorites]

Sean Spicer was maddening, but so, so inept. His career peak—really, the best use of his skills—saw him buried under several pounds of Easter Bunny costume, where he was unable to speak.
posted by blueberry at 11:20 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

I thought Don Jr. got his SS detail back after he took a secret hunting trip in Canada?

Wait. So he dropped his detail, took a trip to Canada, then picked up his detail again? WTF was he doing in Canada that he didn't want his detail to see?
posted by xyzzy at 11:23 PM on November 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

Apparently hunting. Fucking piece of shit.
posted by kittensofthenight at 11:34 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

> Surely the Republicans don't mean to remove SALT deductions for small businesses

Waddaya mean I can't deduct my ICBMs!!!

Oh, not that SALT.
posted by fragmede at 11:46 PM on November 1, 2017 [5 favorites]

When the motherfucking president of the whole goddamned country broadcasts his opinion that the guy is guilty and should be killed, he basically makes it impossible to seat a jury, and any guilty verdict is going to be subject to many appeals on the grounds that the jury was prejudiced against the perp by the president.

So I've been meaning to ask: given what a massive shitshow this entire administration is, how in the hell is the judicial system supposed to find twelve impartial jurors for each of the trials that the Mueller investigation will require?

For that matter, is there any kind of legal bias argument to be made against the grand jury approving these indictments?

Granted, if Twitler himself has to face impeachment, that's a political process through Congress and has completely different rules. But as for the rest of this... I mean where and how the hell are they gonna find juries for this?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:49 PM on November 1, 2017 [3 favorites]

A four-minute monologue by Matthew Yglesias on The Weeds, “Indictment special! Plus: is Paul Ryan cowardly or courageous?” on some commonly accepted themes, but well delivered. (Begins at 20:30.)

I think it’s worth quoting, at some length, what Paul Ryan had to say back in March of 2014 when Russia originally invaded Ukraine. He said:

[60-ish second snip of Ryan expressing concern about how Obama’s policies are projecting weakness abroad and damaging US authority on foreign and defense policy]

I think the moral of that is that Paul Ryan is not cowardly. Paul Ryan is courageous. Paul Ryan for years has worked, he has worked tirelessly to make it so that rich people have more money and poor children have less food and medicine. He loves those causes, and he believes in them really passionately. And so to advance those causes he does amazing things, right?

He says at one point, “I am going to have the United States government default on the national debt to advance my agenda of helping rich people get richer,” right?

He says, “I am going to write a health care bill. It’s going to poll at twenty-seven percent. But I’m going to push it through because I’ve been dreaming, since we were doing keggers in college, of making it harder for poor kids to get medical care.”

In 2014, when Russia invades a foreign country, he says, “I am going to launch [a] partisan attack attack on the president of the United States to help win an election. But my whole view is bullshit, because when the President comes in from my party, at at the behest of the Russians, refusing to implement any sanction policy, I’m not just going to say nothing. I am going to be actively, daily involved in a massive coverup. I am going to time and time again block house floor votes on disclosure of the President’s tax reform. I’m going to set up new house investigative committees to go after Hillary Clinton.” Right? He did that, last week.

It’s not that he’s dodging these questions. When he goes on the radio people are like, “What do you have to say about this?” And he’s, ”Oh, I’ve got nothing to say,” but he has a lot to say about it, right? He’s working with Trey Gowdy. He’s plotting. He’s like, ”How can we muddy the waters on this? How can we help build the rationale for firing Bob Mueller?” Right?

He’s doing it, and it’s because he really, really, truly, believes that it’s sad, it’s a gross injustice that rich people do not have more money. And, like, it’s not cowardice. It’s amazing acts of boldness, and, like, vision, creativity, the likes of which it’s hard to comprehend. And I think, to me, that’s fundamental. There are cowards out there, but there’s no downside risk for Ryan to say “Trump shouldn't fire Bob Mueller.” He would be widely and universally acclaimed. He is taking the risky, all downside course of action because he’s taking a stand for something he believes in.

posted by Going To Maine at 11:51 PM on November 1, 2017 [50 favorites]

Some theorizing and background about the Russian state's global destabilization program making use of ISIS attacks. There's one fairy certain example (the 'CyberCaliphate' hack of a French TV station).

Has someone else taken an active role in terror attacks aimed at the democracies being targeted?.

Not a fan of conspiracy theories, but it is 2017 so the Occam's Razor Reversal Rule is in play.

Also one of the leading voices of the resistance is under attack: Condé Nast to Close Teen Vogue, Cut 80 Jobs and Lower Mag Frequencies. [Only the print edition is being closed, but still...]
posted by Buntix at 12:10 AM on November 2, 2017 [26 favorites]

We're at "Trump Does Not Recall" "already".

Reuters: Trump does not recall suggestion of Putin meeting: White House

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump does not recall a meeting with his foreign policy advisers in March 2016 in which one of them suggested he could arrange a meeting between candidate Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin, the White House said on Wednesday.

posted by christopherious at 12:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [27 favorites]

Personally, I do feel like I have internalized misogyny influencing my particularly negative perceptions of Huckabee Sanders versus Spicer. Yes, she seems competent and conniving while he seems like a bumbling doofus. But... that... conveniently seems to fulfill stereotypes our society pushes about men and women. I see it everywhere from the "shrewish wife/slobby husband who gets a pass" sitcom dynamic to the media narratives about Clinton and Trump.

So while I don't feel society's biases influencing my thought process... the resulting ways in which I think about each of them seems pretty biased to me. I'm just speaking for myself but I have to conclude that I've absorbed more toxicity from our society than I'd thought. She's an awful person. But I do see gender as a dynamic.
posted by Emily's Fist at 12:50 AM on November 2, 2017 [35 favorites]

Condé Nast to Close Teen Vogue

A year or two ago, I would have received this news with barely a thought beyond it being a drag for the about-to-be jobless. Now I think of high-level machinations and a voice of dissent being silenced. Such is life in the Upside Down.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:17 AM on November 2, 2017 [91 favorites]

It's probably easier if you sell your house to your LLC, or set up an LLC to buy it in the first place. Then the LLC can be your landlord.

This has also been a technique used by poly-families. Oh, look, turns out everyone's an employee too and eligible for coverage in the Local Chamber of Commerce members' group coverage plan!

The benefits of an LLC are many...
posted by mikelieman at 1:26 AM on November 2, 2017 [28 favorites]

So while I don't feel society's biases influencing my thought process... the resulting ways in which I think about each of them seems pretty biased to me. I'm just speaking for myself but I have to conclude that I've absorbed more toxicity from our society than I'd thought. She's an awful person. But I do see gender as a dynamic.

I think that in an administration of evil fucks who would sell family members by the pound to butchers, that pretty much everyone hits some stereotype on some level, and SHS is straight from Central Casting for this role. And likewise, the Spicer character wasn't supposed to be so "Brassy" or "Forward".
posted by mikelieman at 1:33 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

For those who like finding parallels between UK and US events - the UK defence minister, Michael Fallon, has just got resigned for 'inappropriate sexual behaviour' with more high level names expected to follow. It's unclear exactly what that behaviour was, as the only incident to be discussed was him touching the knee of a female journalist at a party some 15 years ago and she's said in effect that they're old friends and she didn't find this unacceptable or resign-worthy.

Best guess of the punditry here is that he's been pushed in order to make it clear to the others - there's a spreadsheet circulating with a long list of names and their in some cases very serious reasons for being on the list - that they should reconsider their positions. The whole business of sexual abuse within Parliament is being seen as very serious and potentially capable of providing the coup de grace to an already shaky administration, especially when combined with the growing appreciation of just how badly it's doing its job elsewhere, even though the abuse accusations are by no means demarcated across party lines.

A reminder, I think, that pressure on a failing ruler is multi-messenger, as they say in modern astronomy, and there's no reason to let the bastards have the unique luxury of opening fire on different fronts at the time of their choosing.
posted by Devonian at 1:50 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

(Oh, and we also now have an official investigation into possible Russian collusion with the Brexit campaign.

Ya think?
posted by Devonian at 2:04 AM on November 2, 2017 [26 favorites]

Don't tell Louise Mensch, she sees Russia all over the Trump campaign but is adamant it had nothing to do with Brexit.
posted by PenDevil at 2:08 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Granted, if Twitler himself has to face impeachment, that's a political process through Congress and has completely different rules. But as for the rest of this... I mean where and how the hell are they gonna find juries for this?

If there's anything 2016-17 have forever taught me is that locating large numbers of irresponsibly detached Americans with only the barest idea or interest what's going on shouldn't be all that difficult. Guarantee there were plenty of people out who only heard the name "Paul Manafort" for the first time this week.
posted by EatTheWeek at 2:10 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

@Buntix - Thanks, that Byline article by J. J. Patrick was very sobering. Fuck 2017.
posted by mosk at 2:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Seth Abramson's ... speculation thread on Popadopolis

How long did Papadopoulos work for Trump? Greek media says he was *meeting foreign dignitaries on behalf of Trump* at *the inauguration*.

start of 31 tweets here

May be useful for people who have the energy to differentiate between the real reporting he's recycling and the stuff he's pulling out of his bottom.
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:19 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

If there's anything 2016-17 have forever taught me is that locating large numbers of irresponsibly detached Americans with only the barest idea or interest what's going on shouldn't be all that difficult. Guarantee there were plenty of people out who only heard the name "Paul Manafort" for the first time this week.

The doctor who is being sued by 140 gymnasts he abused over many years (and who is sitting in jail without bail on federal child pornography charges) was located so very much in my backyard that he was a doctor at the university a mile down the street, and also the volunteer team doctor at a famous gym where my son started his gymnastics career. I am amazed by how many people involved in gymnastics in the area have no idea what I'm talking about when I mention him, including, occasionally, other parents who had or have kids at the gym that is one of the sites where he carried out his abuse. I'm amazed by this, in part because it directly affects the safety and well-being of our children. The doctor, Larry Nassar, has asked for a change of venue for one of his upcoming trials but, to my sorrow, I think they'll be able to seat a jury.

Here is a timeline prepared by the local paper that carries up through July 2017.

Here is a recent article in the Indianapolis Star, the paper that broke the USA Gymnastics sex abuse story in 2016, following MyKala Maroney's #metoo revelation that she was one of his victims.

I don't mean to derail, just to jump in to say that I have also recently had reason to be amazed at what people don't know.
posted by Orlop at 2:21 AM on November 2, 2017 [27 favorites]

Some people come in, and they bring their whole family with them, who can be truly evil.
as proven by his own immigrant grandfather...

Drumpfs take your cheese and clogs back to the Palatinate! We don't need your kind here!
posted by Meatbomb at 2:27 AM on November 2, 2017

But can that 1/5 speak of the name, I think that's what we've learned is what matters in Traumathousand17.
posted by riverlife at 2:28 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Does that absolve it of the charge of xenophobia? I don't know, because I wouldn't have made that charge in the first place.

It's a ways upthread now, but yeah, I've been superdismayed about a lot of the name-based "humor" aimed at Papadopoulos, both here and elsewhere.

I'll give you the Pontypool riff, because that doesn't seem to be making fun of a Greek name simply for being Greek, but the rest...not so much. Like, I happened to catch a (deeply unfunny) clip of a Stephen Colbert routine the other night, in which he found five different silly ways to pronounce the name in as many minutes, and it felt like a concentrated, retrograde and thoroughly unwelcome blast of HAW! HAW! Ethnic names are funny! Gettit?

I honestly thought we were beyond that in 2017, but I guess not. In any event, even if the culture at large isn't, I think we can be.
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:38 AM on November 2, 2017 [27 favorites]

We're at "Trump Does Not Recall" "already".

Maybe that's why he can't remember Papadopolous being more than a low level coffee boy.

@funder (Scott Dworkin)
NEW Photo: George Papadopoulos meeting with the President of Greece in the presidential mansion as a Trump campaign Advisor-he wasn't junior PIC

@funder
Photo: GOP Senator Bob Corker, GOP Rep Ted Yoho, GOP Rep Tom Marino & speaking on panel with convicted Trump Advisor George Papadopolous PIC
posted by chris24 at 2:48 AM on November 2, 2017 [31 favorites]

If you’re inclined to poke fun at people’s names do a little internal check. See if you would feel mildly embarrassed to have misspelled or mispronounced Daenerys Targaryen. If the answer is “yes” then possibly you can manage Papadopoulos without needing to smirk.
posted by supercrayon at 2:51 AM on November 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

They apparently don't see any irony in saying this to me, even though I am an immigrant who initially arrived on a family visa. They don't even miss a beat. It's because I'm white and speak english, that's all.

In other words, "Oh, we don't mean you--you're one of the good ones!". I don't get it as often as I used to, but it still happens to me from time to time. Unless I open my mouth and my American accent betrays me, I more or less register as "not an immigrant" to people, I guess.

A related true story: when I lived in London, it was in a borough with a pretty large Afro-Caribbean population, so I'd often be one of the few white people shopping on the high street. This is relevant because one day I was walking past the main local shopping center, and another white guy--big, beefy, kind of sweaty, not quite stereotypical EDL material but I wouldn't be surprised--came up to me. He leaned in and in a conspiratorial voice said "Place is full of fuckin' foreigners, innit, mate?".

You know, I didn't have the heart to tell him.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:52 AM on November 2, 2017 [17 favorites]

What does that mean, supercrayon?
posted by adamgreenfield at 2:52 AM on November 2, 2017

I think he means it's not that hard to spell "Papadopoulos" right, and it's contemptible to think that it's funny to spell it wrong on purpose?
posted by thelonius at 2:57 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

Ah, gotcha. We're on the same page. Sorry.
posted by adamgreenfield at 3:11 AM on November 2, 2017

You know the $12m Trump says Hillary spent on the dossier? You'll be shocked to discover it's a lie.

It was $168,000.

$12m was what DNC paid to their law firm Perkins Cole in total for all work during the election.
posted by chris24 at 3:52 AM on November 2, 2017 [50 favorites]

I could see merit in arguing that it's problematic to mangle an ethnic name for mocking purposes, even though you are also doing it to WASP-y names (if that's what "Trump" is)
posted by thelonius at 4:09 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

In other words, "Oh, we don't mean you--you're one of the good ones!". I don't get it as often as I used to, but it still happens to me from time to time. Unless I open my mouth and my American accent betrays me, I more or less register as "not an immigrant" to people, I guess.

I've had similar experiences. The first time was late in my time in Switzerland. I'm white, American, pass fairly well and in a senior role at the time in a, then old, Swiss firm.

The far right had begun to surface under Blocher's party. Very much an anti-immigration platform. Against Eastern European migration, Tibetan migration, African migration. Xenophobic, racist stuff.

Elections were approaching, signage from Blocher's campaign begin vilifying immigrants as a class. I think I might have mentioned it to some acquaintances. The upshot, I'm the good sort of arrivee. The privilege I had while seeing the racist hate protruding through Blocher's campaign, made me feel ill and put me off staying and getting my permanent residency.

Upside? Living in China and calling Australia home (Graudian links).

So much makes me sad and angry these days.
posted by michswiss at 4:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Drumpf.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:14 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

I try to keep in mind that after a g-ddamned year of this stress, everyone's down to their last nerve, and it's pretty worn out. Plaintext has always sucked with representing subtlety so I try to err on the side of anodyne word choices. I try... And I thank every mod who ever exercised their editorial authority and responsibility by removing any of my deserving comments.
posted by mikelieman at 4:16 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

we make a lot of puns with trump's name, like Twitler,

No, "we" don't, because that's irritating AF too. I cannot believe I am having to seriously argue for us having the decency to not make fun of names. Don't you want to be just a little bit better than that?
posted by adamgreenfield at 4:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [40 favorites]

In this specific case? No. It's a way to blow off steam. Everybody needs ways to do that.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:26 AM on November 2, 2017 [12 favorites]

So. Much. Winning.

Americans have an extremely low perception of Trump family brands.

Both Ivanka Trump's fashion line and Trump Hotels fell to the bottom 10 of more than 1,600 brands analyzed in a YouGov consumer perception survey, Axios reports. YouGov surveyed 4,800 people in a representative national sample to arrive at the result.

With the exception of Trump family brands, most of the bottom 30 are cable companies, energy drinks, and dating sites, spokesperson Drew Kerr told Business Insider.

posted by chris24 at 4:26 AM on November 2, 2017 [29 favorites]

In this specific case? No. It's a way to blow off steam. Everybody needs ways to do that.

Yeah, that's the flip side. Give the other person the benefit of the doubt. I know how hard it is these days, but if people do their best to GIVE and TAKE "Just a little bit more", we'll all make it out the other side, stronger for the trials.

((hugs))

Rule #1: Self-care.
posted by mikelieman at 4:29 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

WSJ: Prosecutors Consider Bringing Charges in DNC Hacking Case
The Justice Department has identified more than six members of the Russian government involved in hacking the Democratic National Committee’s computers and swiping sensitive information that became public during the 2016 presidential election, according to people familiar with the investigation.
Prosecutors and agents have assembled evidence to charge the Russian officials and could bring a case next year, these people said. Discussions about the case are in the early stages, they said.
posted by PenDevil at 4:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [18 favorites]

Mocking people's names is better left alone, but I'm a fat girl with a very common Norwegian surname that sounds like hog, so I might biased.
posted by elsietheeel at 4:44 AM on November 2, 2017 [20 favorites]

I'm really not a fan of mocking people's names either, but I think Pontydopolous is more of a portmanteau akin to Fitzmas and Muellerween. However, I regret any contribution I've made to this derail, so I will exercise more restraint in the future.
posted by Roommate at 4:59 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Not that I think "Twitler" is particularly hilarious either, but it's ... not actually making fun of Trump's name? It's a combination of "twit" and "Hitler"? ("They both start with T" is not really a pun unless you think that "Bananapantsmcgee" would be a clever play on words when referring to someone named "Bob".)
posted by kyrademon at 5:09 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

I’m by no means someone who thinks that the left should play fair - I’m down with much stronger, simpler, more brutal messaging - but just as a single datapoint, there is no faster way to get me to discount your opinion on politics than to humorously misspell someone’s name. Drumpf, tRump, $hillery, Killary, bLiar, etc. It’s unpleasant for all the same reasons that “Democrat Party” discussed upthread is unpleasant. It’s a tactic used by the dumbest kind of playground bullies. It isn’t funny. It’s ineffective and embarrassing. It reflects horribly on the person doing it. Of all the terrible choices that Trump (or Papadopoulos, or whoever) has made, you’ve decided to attack him on the one thing he didn’t choose?
posted by chappell, ambrose at 5:10 AM on November 2, 2017 [57 favorites]

I think a lot of it is just that lots of the “clever” nicknames come off to many people as tired and childish, from years of seeing stuff like “Micro$oft” used by people who seem to still consider themselves worthy of being treated as grown-ups for some reason
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:11 AM on November 2, 2017 [19 favorites]

It’s not like, oh, if only a few more people had called him “Drumpf” instead of “Trump” we’d be having zero American politics threads per week because of how uneventful the Hillary Clinton administration had been so far
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:13 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Name calling, like cursing, can serve an individual's immediate therapeutic needs, but they can also just be thoughtless and mean. Irrespective of that, they can also have deleterious consequences in the broader world.

As individuals we must strive to be good people. Part of that is considering broader consequences before we act. Another part is, when evaluating others' prior acts, practicing empathy before we judge.

Mindfulness is necessary to the nurturing of enlightenment values.
posted by perspicio at 5:27 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

if deanerys targaryen were in politics we'd make fun of her name too.

And then you would be soaked in dragonfire.

TARGARYEN/SNOW '20: Vote for us or melt.
posted by delfin at 5:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

It’s not just “blowing off steam” anymore because there’s machinery in place for capturing that steam and using it to drive an engine of resentment and internal social division, a machine constructed and designed to harness those moments of frustration and impulsive anger and use them to manipulate popular perceptions and to fuel little conflagrations into big all consuming fires. It all works because it exploits the lack of civility and coherent polite norms with broad acceptance across the U.S. population, emphasing group affiliation and difference above more universal human norms and ethical standards. Mockery and name calling feel good to people who feel comfortable identifying their targets as an out group. Even if those “others” might otherwise be open to better ideas, dragging the discussion down to the level of playground fight and holding it there doesn’t improve anything. I’ve used mocking language rhetorically in the past, but I regret it now. While I think there are historical/cultural/social contexts in which skillful, tactical mockery can be an effective political tool, when it starts to seem like the very first impulse every time, it can be seriously off-putting and undercut the seriousness and objectivity of the message.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:31 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

...undercut the seriousness and objectivity of the message.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:31 AM on November 2 [1 favorite +] [!]

Eponysterical.
posted by Rykey at 5:35 AM on November 2, 2017

i can still call him 'cheetoh hitler' right?
posted by j_curiouser at 5:37 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Instead of mangling anyone’s name, it’s much more effective (and therapeutic!) to just call the lot of them “fuckers”.

“Did you see what that fucker Papadopoulos said?”
“Did you see what that fucker Manafort stole?”
“Did you see what that fucker Trump tweeted?”

Much better. None of them chose their names, but ALL of them chose to be fuckers.
posted by lydhre at 5:38 AM on November 2, 2017 [91 favorites]

Even if those “others” might otherwise be open to better ideas, dragging the discussion down to the level of playground fight and holding it there doesn’t improve anything. I’ve used mocking language rhetorically in the past, but I regret it now. While I think there are historical/cultural/social contexts in which skillful, tactical mockery can be an effective political tool, when it starts to seem like the very first impulse every time, it can be seriously off-putting and undercut the seriousness and objectivity of the message.

Agreed. As someone with a surname which a) no one can seem to spell even when I spell it out and b) lends itself to many, many super entertaining and endlessly hilarious variations, name-mangling cheap shots are so incredibly tiresome. We can do better!
posted by doornoise at 5:39 AM on November 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

We're doing a fundraiser for Puerto Rico tonight, covering Dylan songs.
This has been going through my head all week:

They say that patriotism is the last refuge, to which a scoundrel clings.
Steal a little and they throw you in jail. Steal a lot and they make you king.

posted by MtDewd at 5:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

The name thing seems to have wider implications than this thread. Can we take it to Metatalk?
posted by greermahoney at 5:41 AM on November 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

We've already had at least one MeTa thread (maybe more?) arguing about the names thing. Do we need to do it again in here?
posted by lazaruslong at 5:41 AM on November 2, 2017 [14 favorites]

Yes, at least two.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:42 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Waking up to 100 new comments makes me think "big news"... not "arguing over just how xenophobic a person must be to mis-spell 'Papodopoulos'". Third vote for MeTa please.
posted by birdheist at 5:43 AM on November 2, 2017 [30 favorites]

Couple of comments deleted – let's move on from the name thing. Thanks.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 6:02 AM on November 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

Kumail Nanjiani with a tweet thread on problems in tech.

Ooh! With a response I thoroughly endorse.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

The Politico piece making the rounds right now is interesting: the false equivalence peddlers (Berniebros, Greenwald, etc.) really seem to need people to tune out right about now that Trump is feeling the heat. They’re hyping it as evidence of Hillary corrupting the DNC, when the actual story shows the opposite — staggering managerial incompetence on the parts of DWS & Obama leaving the DNC broke, and the Clinton campaign choosing not to give money to incompetent people without more control.
posted by adamsc at 6:08 AM on November 2, 2017 [24 favorites]

Donna Brazile: Inside Hillary Clinton’s Secret Takeover of the DNC
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:09 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

Walter White was a PhD candidate in chemistry, so may have been slightly more educated than the general population.

Walt wanted to blow up the evidence room, it was Jesse who said, "Yo, what about a magnet?"
posted by peeedro at 1:56 PM on November 1 [11 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

Good point. In any event, the writers were smarter about STEM stuff than 99% of the population.
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:16 PM on November 1 [3 favorites +] [!]

My point wasn't that TV writers are smart, but that the magnet=erase thing has been shown on TV on a very popular TV show so I would assume that anyone watching that didn't know before does know now.
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

The DNC's solution to incompetence is corruption and their excuse for corruption is incompetence. And these people act surprised that Republicans win all the time?
posted by Glibpaxman at 6:17 AM on November 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

countdown to dismissal of donna brazile as russian agent in 3... 2...
posted by entropicamericana at 6:23 AM on November 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

I wanted to believe Hillary, who made campaign finance reform part of her platform, but I had made this pledge to Bernie and did not want to disappoint him.

Jesus Tapdancing Christ this sentence.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:27 AM on November 2, 2017 [18 favorites]

No One Can Confirm Trump's Claim That The NYC Attack Suspect Brought 23 People To The US (Adolfo Flores, BuzzFeed News)

"This man that came in, or whatever you want to call him, brought in with him other people, and he was the point of contact, the primary point of contact for — and this is preliminarily — 23 people that came in or potentially came in with him," Trump said. "And that is not acceptable. We want to get rid of chain migration."

But multiple federal agencies were unable to confirm to BuzzFeed News that Saipov sponsored or helped bring in nearly two dozen people, as Trump claimed, during his seven years he has lived in the United States. Saipov entered the US in 2010 after obtaining legal residency through the diversity visa lottery program.

A Brooklyn blogger uncovered evidence of Paul Manafort's alleged money laundering months ago (Tucker Higgins, CNBC)

Special counsel Robert Mueller may have had some help investigating President Donald Trump's former campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, from an unlikely source: a blogger in Brooklyn, New York.

And it's all because Manafort wasn't a very good neighbor.

"I noticed this brownstone, it was really dilapidated, it had a lot of construction debris," said Katia Kelly, who runs a neighborhood blog called Pardon Me for Asking. "It was just like gee, poor neighbors."

That's how Kelly first noticed a property owned by Manafort that would turn out to be evidence of an alleged multimillion-dollar money laundering scheme. Kelly wrote about how she traced ownership of the property in an article she published in February.

The Intercept, an online news outlet, cited Kelly's article shortly after it was published. After the indictment, Kelly's story was cited by publications including Vanity Fair.

posted by Room 641-A at 6:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

If you guys really want to spend the next 100 comments relitigating the primaries, knock yourselves out. Wait, actually: please don’t.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 6:32 AM on November 2, 2017 [23 favorites]

Yesterday, after more news about Kevin Spacey, the Walmart shooting, the New York truck murders, the ongoing Trumpiness of it all, etc., etc., I had the thought for the first time in my life: What is WRONG with people? Or rather, I had that thought for the millionth time, but not in a sad, or frustrated or exasperated way. I had that thought, and for the first time, I said to myself: Really. Really, what is wrong with people? For the first time I thought, I think maybe all of our art and our reaching to the stars and our compassion and all of those things I adore about people, maybe those things aren't enough. Maybe we are flawed beyond any worth we bring to the world. Maybe we are irredeemably a wrong and broken thing. I'm a deeply cynical optimist, and I gotta tell you, cynicism is winning this year.
posted by thebrokedown at 6:32 AM on November 2, 2017 [56 favorites]

I'm not thinking about 2016, I'm thinking about all of the "NoVa seems too quiet for a major race" comments recently. There's one other party nationally, and if they're asleep at the wheel then we're pretty universally fucked.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:35 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

That DNC piece is much more of an indictment on Obama for raiding the party machinery, leaving it destitute and doing nothing for 8 years to transfer his own winning campaign structure and personal popularity over to the party.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:36 AM on November 2, 2017 [15 favorites]

23 people that came in or potentially came in with him

Technically, he's right. But he'd also be right to say 8 million people, or two people, or all people in Connecticut named Hubert "potentially came in with him," so.
posted by Rykey at 6:36 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Re: Cut Cut Cut
John R Parkinson: Multiple sources tell me the House GOP tax bill is called: “The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.”

"The Donald Trump Act for Billionaires Who Don't Want to Pay Taxes and Wanna Learn How To Remove Obamacare Too".
posted by PontifexPrimus at 6:38 AM on November 2, 2017 [35 favorites]

"The Donald Trump Act for Billionaires Who Don't Want to Pay Taxes and Wanna Learn How To Remove Obamacare Too".

"How are we supposed to repeal Obama care if we can't even get it past the Senate?!?"
posted by Twain Device at 6:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don't want to relitigate the primaries, but I am curious how anything in that article supports her assertion that they were rigged.
posted by Mavri at 6:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

@FormerBu "Lordy I hope there are pictures."

Comey reveals he's all about the Oxford commas. Also he has a book (presumably with pictures).
posted by Buntix at 6:44 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

What Brazile is alleging is corruption and mismanagement, and she was in a position to know.

The question Democrats really need to be asking is not whether Bernie or Hillary could have won or which of them was cheated out of what. At this point that's history, and relitigating the primaries is a fool's errand. Especially since the person currently seated in the Oval Office only won because of the Electoral College.

We need to be looking very hard at the Democratic Party's finances to determine where they stand for the future. Why was the Obama campaign allowed to put the Party's finances in such dire straits? How can that be prevented down the road?

Honestly, two million dollars is kind of a drop in the bucket to be in the hole for a political party in the midst of a Presidential election. But Democratic voters were told that a decent amount of the money raised in Clinton fundraisers would be shunted to downstream campaigns. If they weren't, then how can we trust them in the future? If I give money to a Presidential campaign, where does that money go? There's a distinct lack of transparency here that is worrisome.
posted by zarq at 6:45 AM on November 2, 2017 [43 favorites]

Um. It says that the Hilary campaign controlled everything that the DNC did: Who they employed, what mailshots they sent out, where they spent their money, /everything/.

If you think they didn't use this control to help them squeeze Bernie out, then I have a bridge over the Thames to sell you.
posted by pharm at 6:47 AM on November 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

It says that the Hilary campaign controlled everything that the DNC

I mean I kind of expect that for a candidate that has been working in and campaigning in the DNC for decades. I'm not even sure if Bernie has a (D) or an (I) behind his name in the Senate?
posted by PenDevil at 6:53 AM on November 2, 2017 [15 favorites]

Missed this comment from yesterday afternoon and wanted to follow up:
Most people are making more when working vs retired, so the tax rate on incremental income taxing it now is higher than it would be taxed at on retirement. So doesn't it increase revenue by taxing the money during higher tax bracket years? While screwing the worker even more.

Two things: (1) we have no idea what future tax rates will be, and tax rates are historically low right now, so outside of economic modeling (which generally assumes a constant rate over your lifetime), we can't assume the brackets/rates will be similar or lower in the future, and (2) the on-paper revenue impact of the change depends a lot on how the Joint Committee on Taxation (and thus CBO) scores 401(k)s.

This article from Tax Analysts has a good overview of why "Rothification" is a budget gimmick (even if you otherwise think it's a good policy, it's not a good way to "pay" for permanent corporate tax cuts): 'Rothification' Seen as Unsustainable Offset for Tax Cuts, by Stephanie Cumings
posted by melissasaurus at 6:54 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

Re the chain migration thing: it's much easier to exploit people if you set up a system that forcibly severs them from their support networks.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:56 AM on November 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

Condé Nast to Cease Teen Vogue in Print, Cut 80 Jobs and Lower Mag Frequencies

Good journalism is its own reward...
posted by Devonian at 6:56 AM on November 2, 2017 [11 favorites]

From Trump this morning:

Would love to send the NYC terrorist to Guantanamo but statistically that process takes much longer than going through the Federal system...
...There is also something appropriate about keeping him in the home of the horrible crime he committed. Should move fast. DEATH PENALTY!

Yes, there certainly is "something appropriate" about following the goddamn Constitution: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed" (emphasis added)

Also congratulations to everyone who predicted he would double down on calling for the death penalty.
posted by jedicus at 6:57 AM on November 2, 2017 [37 favorites]

That Brazile story is bonkers but if we relitigate the primary even based on new evidence I will actually die right here on MeFi, just let out a wail and croak and die.
posted by dis_integration at 6:57 AM on November 2, 2017 [57 favorites]

Um. It says that the Hilary campaign controlled everything that the DNC did: Who they employed, what mailshots they sent out, where they spent their money, /everything/.

Yeah, thanks, I can read. If anyone would like to actually answer my question, I am curious. Did they endorse Hillary? Did they influence who was on the ballot? Did they send out ostensibly neutral mailings that had Bernie in teeny tiny font on the back? How does controlling the DNC enable the party to rig the outcome?
posted by Mavri at 7:02 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

What strikes me in re the DNC is that we need more resilient organizations with better staff and longer institutional memory. To me it seems like we end up relitigating the primaries precisely because what happened was equivocal and genuinely subject to different interpretations, and that this could happen because the DNC doesn't work very well. It should be far clearer how money flows, what the responsibility a Democratic president is, how new people are chosen or appointed, who makes what decisions, who reports to whom on the finances, etc. There should not be a large party apparatus whose bureaucracy can't sustain itself during conflict between factions of the party, the whole point of having a party bureaucracy is so that things can function smoothly through conflicts in the party.
posted by Frowner at 7:04 AM on November 2, 2017 [41 favorites]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Humans just can't be trusted with self-government.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:06 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

But there’s no alternative to it.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:07 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

On another note, it occurs to me that the follow up to the whole "Does the White House think slavery was wrong" question should be "What about Jim Crow, does the White House think Jim Crow was wrong" and then onward with similar questions. At a certain point, they'll start to hedge, and that will be worth having on record.
posted by Frowner at 7:08 AM on November 2, 2017 [43 favorites]

elsietheeel: "Mocking people's names is better left alone, but I'm a fat girl with a very common Norwegian surname that sounds like hog, so I might biased."

Ditto and me too sort of. My first name is a Hollywood characterization short cut for loser¹ and it is extremely annoying when people run with that.

PenDevil: "I'm not even sure if Bernie has a (D) or an (I) behind his name in the Senate?"

He's an (I).

1 IE: if a hollywood character is introduced with my name, even if you know nothing else about him, you know he is a loser.
posted by Mitheral at 7:11 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

My first name is a Hollywood characterization short cut for loser

Nice to meet you, Donald.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:13 AM on November 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

Even when we throw up our hands and say “Let God(s) run the show,” we’re still self-governing according to whomever we trust to represent God’s will or whatever and just in denial. Same with fantasies about AI taking that responsibility off our hands: not possible. In fact, we ought to call it “Automated Intelligence” instead of artificial because the best current tech can do is apply existing human judgments and ideas in bulk across a whole lot of what used to be adminstrative tasks individual people did all at once. There’s still no non-human recourse to self-governance other than various old and new superstitions.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:14 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

But there’s no alternative to it.

I propose a new system, a mazeocracy. In this cutting edge new system we put tokens representing legislative options into a mixture of blended bread and sugar, leaving them on the outskirts of a maze. The breadmold at the center of the maze will decide our fate.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:15 AM on November 2, 2017 [15 favorites]

> Canadians of a certain age will remember with polarized feelings our prime minister of thirty years ago, one Brian Mulroney, who was struggling to keep his sizable chin above water and still in the double digits by the end of his second term: the summer of 1993 found him with 12% approval, 83% disapproval. The Donald still has a goal to shoot for.

And may the Republicans meet the same fate as Mulroney's Conservatives did in the next election.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:15 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

WSJ: Republicans Stick With Big Corporate Tax Cuts in House Bill

For example, the proposal repeals an itemized deduction for medical expenses, a crucial provision to households with extraordinary health-care costs. It also repeals the tax credit for adoption and the deduction for student-loan interest. [...]

Passive owners of pass-through businesses would get the 25% rate, but those actively involved in the business would have a different standard. The bill starts with the presumption that 70% of that pass-through income is attributable to labor and would be taxable at higher individual income-tax rates. For some that would create a blended top tax rate of about 35%, which those businesses and their influential trade groups may argue isn’t low enough.

For professional services firms, including lawyers and financial-services professionals, the default rate would be 100% labor income, meaning they would get none of the benefit of the 25% tax rate for pass-through businesses. [...]

The [estate] tax would get repealed starting in 2024.

Even after repeal, heirs would continue to get something known as a “step-up in basis.” That means they would only owe capital-gains taxes on the difference between the sales price of an asset they inherit and the value of the asset at the previous owner’s death. Previous versions of estate-tax repeal had limited that benefit.

There are a lot of details in the article, but I pulled out a few that are particularly bad. The student loan interest deduction is above-the-line, meaning you don't need to itemize to take it; it also phases out starting at around $75k, so it's not regressive in the same way other deductions are. The plan to tax pass-through income based on industry and active vs passive involvement is a horrible idea from a compliance perspective, and is just not workable. The plan to repeal the estate tax but retain the step up in basis is inherently offensive.

Here's [pdf] the House Ways and Means talking points on their tax plan.
posted by melissasaurus at 7:17 AM on November 2, 2017 [20 favorites]

I mean I kind of expect that for a candidate that has been working in and campaigning in the DNC for decades. I'm not even sure if Bernie has a (D) or an (I) behind his name in the Senate?

He's an Independent.

He ran on the Democratic Party ticket out of convenience, and to take advantage of the Party machinery and primaries. There is nothing wrong with that, and there was no other way for him to realistically run for President and win without doing so. Running for President as an Independent without the infrastructure that a major political party provides is not a path to victory. The Republican and Democratic parties have a chokehold duopoly on the process, from fundraising to debates to primary voting and more.

To focus on the future:

Sanders took home the youth vote. He won white males, who are still a majority in this country. Democratic candidates will need to find a way to win those voters if they want to win elections down the road. That needs to be a priority. And doing so effectively does not mean throwing minorities under the bus or engaging in racist dogwhistles.

12% of people who voted for Sanders in the Primaries voted for Trump in November. Most of those were in states with open primaries. This could be an indication of one of two things: Either the people who voted for Sanders in the Primaries but for Trump in the general election were Republican voters acting as spoilers against Clinton, or they were people that Clinton was unable to convince to vote for her. We can't do anything about the former group. But the latter group should be open to a good candidate.
posted by zarq at 7:21 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

My first name is a Hollywood characterization short cut for loser

Nice to meet you, Donald.

How many fingers am I holding up right now?
posted by phearlez at 7:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

He won white males, who are still a majority in this country

That is QUITE the slip
posted by schadenfrau at 7:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [44 favorites]

Actually I changed my mind, I will accept any and all snark about my name if it means we don't fucking talk again about the primaries.
posted by phearlez at 7:25 AM on November 2, 2017 [21 favorites]

elsietheeel: This is just...I'm speechless at the ineptitude. Why would you listen to a young, unintelligent trust fund baby with no political knowledge or experience AND who has proven to be a business failure as well?

I think you're focusing on the wrong thing: a "very smart" 70 year old man decided he needs input from his daughter's husband on serious issues. 1) What happened to Trump being the deal maker and all that shit, and 2) if you're relying on your younger family members for support, you might be in the wrong business.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:28 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

zarq is talking about the future.

oh?

ran, was, took, won, voted, voted, were, voted, were, were, was

So much past tense for future talk.

Seriously, who wants to make fun of my name instead? There's even a cartoon duck!
posted by phearlez at 7:29 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

That is QUITE the slip

I don't understand your meaning. Can you please clarify?
posted by zarq at 7:29 AM on November 2, 2017

Soon we will have new primaries. I suspect we will talk quite a bit about centrist "electability" then.
posted by Artw at 7:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

He won white males, who are still a majority in this country.

"White men are 31 percent of the American population."

🤔
posted by stopgap at 7:32 AM on November 2, 2017 [46 favorites]

white males, who are still a majority in this country.

While "white alone, not hispanic or latino" makes up 61.3% of the country, according to the last census, one presumes only slightly less than half of that is male.

Naturally, the Trump administration is threatening to make a "train wreck" out of the 2020 census, but at least the NAACP is filing a lawsuit over the likelihood it will deliberately under-count minority Americans.
posted by Doktor Zed at 7:32 AM on November 2, 2017 [12 favorites]

That is QUITE the slip

I don't understand your meaning. Can you please clarify?

“White males” have never been a majority of anything. They just get treated like their votes count more than everyone else’s.

What’s the multiplier you’re using?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:33 AM on November 2, 2017 [29 favorites]

I just watched Hillary's interview with Trevor Noah on the Daily Show. She answers questions for 25 minutes extemporaneously, using complete sentences. She didn't use any imaginary words, insults or threats. She didn't erroneously blame any minorities. She didn't upset diplomatic relations with other countries. She didn't boast, she didn't even lie.

How odd is it that all of those things I considered to be the base level of dignity in office are now shining virtues. Even just not lying! It's conspicuous because we just don't have that base level anymore.
posted by adept256 at 7:34 AM on November 2, 2017 [89 favorites]

The United States will be immediately implementing much tougher Extreme Vetting Procedures.

This tweet establishes... what, exactly? Is there a new executive action? Was a law passed? Did a cabinet-level agency adopt a new set of written MTEVPs somebody can point to?

It's "immediately" in Trump Time, like when he announced that he was "offically" declaring the opioid epidemic a national emergency, and then didn't get around to actually doing so -- and then not quite -- for weeks and weeks.

But it's a tweet, so it's for his base. Trump said it, so they'll think it has been done. It's magical thinking.

Also, Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that having to talk to the press is Trump's "flaw," and then overtly lied about a statement Trump made on tape. The media needs to stop submitting to her displays of contempt.
posted by Gelatin at 7:34 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

theodolite: I don't know why the press corps keeps coming back for this again and again.

Part of me says "fuck the WH and that whole corrupt, racist pack of liars," but another part of me realizes for "mainstream" media to simply not show up would give 1) the impression that the WH "beat" "those people" and 2) would give more air time and focus to the hyper-conservative outlets who now have a seat at the table but must compete for question time with other more reputable sources.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:34 AM on November 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

1) Drop it, y'all.

2) Psst. If the Democrats could take their eyes off of their barely-realistic pipe dream in Alamaba, they're about to blow an easily-winnable election in Virginia. The Northam campaign has been staggeringly incompetent, and the numbers are looking bleaker and bleaker. FFS, the latest campaign ads are so cringeworthy that I want to stay home.
posted by schmod at 7:35 AM on November 2, 2017 [18 favorites]

I really don't understand why I'm getting so many Gillespie ads in DC. I get some NoVa people might be around here, but...there aren't a lot of winnable conservative voters in that groups.
posted by mosst at 7:38 AM on November 2, 2017

“White males” have never been a majority of anything. They just get treated like their votes count more than everyone else’s.

White people make up approximately 73% of the US population. If we remove the ~11% of Latinos who identify as White from that equation, then the country is about 62% white, which matches up closely with Doktor Zed's 61.3% figure cited above. White people are a demographic majority which Clinton lost, and that helped cost her the election. Because when Whites vote as a bloc, they wield considerable political power.

I'm a white guy. My vote counted the same as everyone else's in my state in this election. The Electoral College screwed me out of seeing my candidate, who won the popular vote, win the Presidency. My white male vote didn't count more than everyone else's. It counted less than votes cast in a bunch of red states.
posted by zarq at 7:39 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

instead of talking about the primaries, could we talk about the early-1930s rift between the KPD and the SPD instead? That's never a topic that leads to arguments. never.

each time I watch a Northam ad I understand the KPD's position a little better
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:43 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

this is such a bad faith comment. Do you think it's possible to talk constructively about the future with out mentioning what happened in the past? Come on.

No, I think it's impossible to not talk about the primaries while talking about the primaries. You're the one who wanted to try to write it some sort of pass by saying no no it's all about the future! Dressing up relitigation as here's the things we need to learn for the next time doesn't dodge that. Oh no, it's not a relitigation pie, it's a future pie! I just happened to stir a few cups of relitigation into it.
posted by phearlez at 7:43 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

It's generally considered ill-advised for Presidents to weigh in on criminal prosecutions in progress. At the very least, it can screw up the chances of seating an impartial jury, which is already difficult in a case like Saipov's.

This is not just a theoretical issue. The judge in Bowe Bergdahl's court martial says it may mean a lighter sentence for him:

Army Colonel Jeffery Nance said Trump’s comments during the campaign were “condemning and damning of the accused” but had not influenced the proceedings.

“I am completely unaffected by any comments President Trump has made about Sergeant Bergdahl,” Nance said.

The judge said he would consider the president’s comments as a mitigating factor, however, raising the possibility of a lighter punishment for Bergdahl.

posted by scalefree at 7:43 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

I liked Frowner's comment - it seems that the DNC is dysfunctional above and beyond the whole 2016 issue. I also think that way too much attention and money are funneled into the Big Sexy Races for President and Senate seats and not nearly enough on state and local elections. Another Politico article on the subject.

I think that the Democratic party machine (such as it is) 1) needs to pay far more attention to state and local races, 2) needs to start building up its infrastructure in neglected areas (yes, there are Democrats in Oklahoma and no, they can't just be left to rot because they are the minority party for now), 3) needs to stop with the pearl-clutching about "electability" leading them to run milquetoast candidates - they are better at that now, certainly HRC wasn't a milquetoast flip-flopper, but I don't want to see another John Kerry foisted upon us in the name of "electability."

There are no more goddamned swing voters and the Democratic party machine's pursuit of them needs to staaaaahhhhp. A majority of voters want a universal basic income, ffs! If nothing else, the turnout for Bernie demonstrates that Luxury Space Communism, not Third-Way-ism, is something people want. The Third Way and its associated bland, "electable" centrism needs to ring down the curtain and join the choir invisible.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:45 AM on November 2, 2017 [64 favorites]

Your argument, which I quoted above, cited white males as the necessary “majority” that Hillary lost.

The many things wrong with that, and how that reflects on the entire goddamn hellscape of 2016, should be obvious to anyone who gives a shit about anyone who isn’t white and male.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:47 AM on November 2, 2017 [29 favorites]

When the party chooses the nominee, the custom is that the candidate’s team starts to exercise more control over the party. If the party has an incumbent candidate, as was the case with Clinton in 1996 or Obama in 2012, this kind of arrangement is seamless because the party already is under the control of the president. When you have an open contest without an incumbent and competitive primaries, the party comes under the candidate’s control only after the nominee is certain. When I was manager of Gore’s campaign in 2000, we started inserting our people into the DNC in June. This victory fund agreement, however, had been signed in August 2015, just four months after Hillary announced her candidacy and nearly a year before she officially had the nomination.

Here's the controversial part. The Clinton campaign took over the party apparatus almost immediately due to the financial situation the party was in, used it to direct all money and decision making through the Clinton campaign, and then somehow managed to get clobbered by Donald Trump. We basically already knew this.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:49 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

And, P.S.: Democrats would do well to reclaim the hated label "community organizer" and run with it. We need community organizers! I think above all else, we need to get out the vote - the problem is not that people don't like Democrats and what they stand for, it's that likely Dem voters tend to stay home, especially in midterm and more local elections. I know, voter suppression, gerrymandering, and so on, but even registered Democrats will "go big or stay home" and only vote for President or a senator. Democrats need to turn up at the polls like Republicans do.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 7:50 AM on November 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

A majority of voters want a universal basic income, ffs!

Do you have some citations on this? I'm not challenging... it's just something I didn't know and I'd like to see the actual numbers, but some basic googling is coming up short.
posted by jammer at 7:51 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Via Salon, Hilary Clinton said this on the Daily Show last night:

… his immediate reaction is always to blame somebody, to play to our worst feelings, and I really regret that. You know, I take no pleasure in the kinds of behavior that we’re seeing out of the White House. … He just doesn’t have any empathy. And you can disagree with somebody over all kinds of partisan issues, but you want to have a president who can try to put himself into the shoes, the feelings of somebody else, and he has not been able to do that.

posted by ZeusHumms at 7:52 AM on November 2, 2017 [28 favorites]

Which part do they hate? the community or being organized?
posted by adept256 at 7:52 AM on November 2, 2017

I’m getting a WaPo alert that Republicans are lowering the cap on mortgage interest deduction from 1 million to 500,000. Cynical populist ploy, or trying to find money, or what do we think?
posted by corb at 7:53 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Two things:

1. Let's embrace the idea that zarq is numerate enough that a comment that suggests 31% is a majority share is probably a communication error rather than a straight-faced assertion, and stop lasering in on that already.

2. It's going to be difficult to talk about What We Learned, For The Future without talking about individual perspectives on what happened in the past. That doesn't make trying to comment on that through-line some kind of devious workaround, but it does make it practically difficult to avoid wrapping some arguments about interpretations of that what-happened stuff into the discussion, even if everybody's commenting in good faith.

I'm honestly super duper tired of some of those arguments even if I understand why they happen, and would ask y'all to please not follow a path that leads back to them yet again this morning.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:53 AM on November 2, 2017 [52 favorites]

The DNC seems to run like the administration departments at my undergrad liberal arts college. The same dozen people shuffle between jobs and departments, doing none of them particularly well, but they all have each others back and so nobody every gets fired.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:54 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

Can we please move the DNC stuff to its own thread?
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 7:56 AM on November 2, 2017 [20 favorites]

This may be unprecedented. Somebody close to Trump tells him a fact that's both meaningful & true, he understands what they're saying & publicly changes his mind to be on the right side of an issue he'd previously been on the wrong side of. Trump on Twitter: Would love to send the NYC terrorist to Guantanamo but statistically that process takes much longer than going through the Federal system...
posted by scalefree at 7:57 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

I’m getting a WaPo alert that Republicans are lowering the cap on mortgage interest deduction from 1 million to 500,000. Cynical populist ploy, or trying to find money, or what do we think?

Trying to find money in the kids' couch cushions. It grandfathers in existing mortgages, so the limit will only apply to new mortgages.
posted by melissasaurus at 7:58 AM on November 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

I’m getting a WaPo alert that Republicans are lowering the cap on mortgage interest deduction from 1 million to 500,000. Cynical populist ploy, or trying to find money, or what do we think?

My bet is that it's a distractor, while they remove 401k deductions.
posted by Dashy at 7:58 AM on November 2, 2017

WSJ: Republicans Stick With Big Corporate Tax Cuts in House Bill

Does anyone have a non-paywalled link to either this article or a comparable one summarizing the House bill?
posted by ragtag at 7:59 AM on November 2, 2017

Frowner On another note, it occurs to me that the follow up to the whole "Does the White House think slavery was wrong" question should be "What about Jim Crow, does the White House think Jim Crow was wrong" and then onward with similar questions. At a certain point, they'll start to hedge, and that will be worth having on record.

SHS already hedged on the slavery question.

When asked, outright, if the White House, Trump, thought slavery was wrong this was her "answer"

I think it’s disgusting and absurd to suggest that anyone inside of this building would support slavery

Note that at no point did she actually say that the White House thought slavery was wrong. It's an example of classic redirection, not answering the question but answering a different question in a way that implies, wrongly, that you've answered the question.

SHS answered the question "is it disgusting and abusrd to think that the President might not think slavery was wrong". She didn't actually answer the question "does the President think slavery was wrong".

That's a hedge. We should have fucking headlines reading "White House Spokesperson unable to confirm that the President thinks slavery was wrong", and the only reason we don't is because the so called liberal media is utterly spineless and leans right.

It's like from the SMBC Theater skit Dating Solutions where the woman asks if the guy has ever cheated, and he answers "cheating is disgusting!" because she's got a lie detector so he can't say "no" without being called on it.

Again, we've got this amazing story: White House Spokesperson unable to confirm that the President thinks slavery was wrong, and none of the establishment press is going with it.
posted by sotonohito at 7:59 AM on November 2, 2017 [29 favorites]

lalex:

The Politico piece making the rounds right now is interesting: the false equivalence peddlers (Berniebros, Greenwald, etc.) really seem to need people to tune out right about now that Trump is feeling the heat.
Are you talking about the Brazile piece? If so, PLEASE.

This piece is an excerpt from her upcoming book. Brazile is not perfect - no one is - but I can assure you that she's anti-Trump and Team Democrat all the way.

No argument: if you reread my comment, note that I wasn’t referring to her but rather the people jumping at the chance to spin this as yet another Clinton conspiracy when it really shows that the DNC was a complete travesty of leadership.
posted by adamsc at 8:01 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Trying to find money in the kids' couch cushions. It grandfathers in existing mortgages, so the limit will only apply to new mortgages.

Same with the Rothification of 401(k)s. Baby boomers got tax deferred growth on their retirement funds, but nobody else does.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:02 AM on November 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

This is the official House talking points on the tax bill, for what that's worth. Obviously, there's lots of bullshit in there, but also some actual specifics (401(k)s are unchanged, new rules for new mortgages, SALT only for property taxes up to $10,000)
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:02 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

SHS answered the question "is it disgusting and absurd to think that the President might not think slavery was wrong". She didn't actually answer the question "does the President think slavery was wrong".

Agreed. I understand it happened too quickly, but if I had a time machine I'd give it to April Ryan so she could yell back, "Yes, we all agree, it's reprehensible that Gen. Kelly made that suggestion, but since he did, I'm following up on it."
posted by solotoro at 8:03 AM on November 2, 2017 [11 favorites]

BREAKING: Former Trump campaign official [Sam Clovis] linked to Mueller's Russia investigation withdraws nomination for agriculture post"

Shame. That would have been a fun confirmation hearing.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:03 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

Jammer: I took the citation from this Pew Research article. It's mostly about automation, but one of the questions is about universal basic income - and it appears that most voters favor or strongly favor it. I know this is only one citation, but it seems to me that support for a UBI is no longer a fringe thing.

National Treasure Stephanie Coontz, in her book The Way We Really Are, notes that one of the things that we really miss about the much-loved (at least for white people) 1950's, were the high marginal tax rates that enabled lots of government funding to help white nuclear families live that "Leave It To Beaver" lifestyle.

As a woman, I never want to relive the 50's, but what I take away from Coontz's study is that the Sam Vimes Boots Theory applies to societies and governments as well as footwear. Pay more upfront, get a better product.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 8:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [19 favorites]

The DNC spins their loud support for milquetoast centrist liberals and loathing for the center-left and left as being related to "electability"; the stance is "gosh, folks, we like your ideas but they just can't win so we're gonna run [lieberman/kerry/kaine/whoever] instead."

This leaves most observers confused, because the people designated as electable by the party tend to seem totally unelectable: they're personally uncharismatic, their ideas are unappealing, the rhetoric used to sell their ideas is uninspiring and outdated.

The underlying reason producing this split has nearly nothing to do with electability, though I'm sure the DNC spokesfolks believe themselves when they say they're concerned about electability. Really, though, the dispute is about ideology. The broadly popular socialist/socialish ideas coming from the left sell as well or better than the conservative pro-capital "everything is fine" line coming from the liberal center, but they're built on a different ideological foundation, and the two different ideological foundations are not particularly compatible with each other. As Nancy Pelosi noted, the Democratic Party is a capitalist party — and failing a successful takeover from an entryist group, they will always be a capitalist party. Support for the ongoing power of capital is central to their values; it is not something they can compromise on, not even to win elections.

I'm never disappointed in the DNC, because I don't see them as a source of institutional leadership. Instead, I see them as a host body to parasitize. When they fuck up — when Northam runs a campaign around the idea that gosh he's just a simple country doctor who'd love to work with Donald Trump — I don't feel betrayed. Instead, I'm reminded to raise my monthly donations to DSA.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [55 favorites]

I wish he had withdrawn because he lacks any scientific qualifications whatsoever, but I'll take it. Merry Muellermas!
posted by Dashy at 8:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

The new nominee for USDA Chief Scientist is a Mr Sergey Kislyak of Moscow [fake]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:06 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

I’m getting a WaPo alert

I fully expect that in 2018, "I'm getting a WaPo alert" will become an official medical condition.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

Shame. That would have been a fun confirmation hearing.

Was he one of the people who was showing up for work despite not being confirmed yet?

This is the official House talking points on the tax bill, for what that's worth. Obviously, there's lots of bullshit in there, but also some actual specifics (401(k)s are unchanged, new rules for new mortgages, SALT only for property taxes up to $10,000)

HAVE PEOPLE LEARNED NOTHING FROM KANSAS?? I know, look who we're talking about...
posted by Melismata at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

401(k)s are unchanged

Welllllll...... the House talking points say:
"Retains popular retirement savings options such as 401(k)s and Individual Retirement Accounts so Americans can continue to save for their future."

So, it will retain the option, but does not address whether the limits will be reduced.

And:
"The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act makes no changes to the popular retirement savings options that Americans have today"

makes no changes to the ... options

They may have scrapped the idea of lowering the limit, but their press release leaves it somewhat ambiguous.
posted by melissasaurus at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2017 [12 favorites]

HAVE PEOPLE LEARNED NOTHING FROM KANSAS?? I know, look who we're talking about...

The lesson of my entire adult life is that Republicans are immune to learning when it comes to tax cuts. Taxes always need cutting and they'll beg, borrow, and steal, to find the money to make it look like they can be paid for.

They may have scrapped the idea of lowering the limit, but their press release leaves it somewhat ambiguous.

That's fair, I over-read what's there.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:10 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

National Treasure Stephanie Coontz, in her book The Way We Really Are, notes that one of the things that we really miss about the much-loved (at least for white people) 1950's, were the high marginal tax rates that enabled lots of government funding to help white nuclear families live that "Leave It To Beaver" lifestyle.

I imagine that these applied to very, very few people. I also wonder what percentage of Americans actually understand what a marginal tax rate is.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

He's not quite leaving, he's "stepping down as co-chief executive of Renaissance Technologies" and will "remain active on the research side of the hedge-fund firm, which makes trades using complex mathematical equations."

Seems odd if he's being pushed out that he would remain employed there.
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:15 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Are there actual job creation measures included in the Tax Cuts & Jobs Act, or did they just throw that in the title so they can claim "Joe Democrat voted against JOBS!"?

I mean besides their trickle-down fantasy mantra against "job-killing" taxes and regulations.
posted by zakur at 8:16 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

@AshleyFeinberg: goodbye to sam clovis, the only man who truly understood the three pillars of american life
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:17 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Highlighting what zachlipton said earlier:

Hey, I wonder what Paul Ryan thinks about temporary tax cuts: "Every expert agrees that temporary reforms will only have a negligible impact on wages and economic growth." --Paul Ryan, 6/20/17
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:19 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

eems odd if he's being pushed out that he would remain employed there.

There is a broad variety of ways that people can be pushed out/leave high profile positions within companies with some sort of word formula that claims a continued connection but has no verifiable proof. Mostly used for reputational purposes of whichever party needs the name of the other the most, but there are many other reasons.
posted by Devonian at 8:22 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Y'all remember two hours ago when a mod asked you to move on from the name thing. We don't have to parse out precisely where the line between "making fun of an ethnic-marked name" and "making fun of an unmarked name" is to say hey maybe we should just skip making-fun-of-names as a basic conversational strategy.
posted by cortex (staff) at 8:27 AM on November 2, 2017 [21 favorites]

AHEM

Take a break from relitigating the primaries and GOTV in Virginia. Door knocking and phone banking from now thru Tuesday 11/7/17 Election Day. Memail dogheart for Richmond Southside HQ info.

So we don't have to relitigate the Virginia general later.
posted by jointhedance at 8:27 AM on November 2, 2017 [21 favorites]

Do you have some citations on this? I'm not challenging... it's just something I didn't know and I'd like to see the actual numbers, but some basic googling is coming up short.

America Is Not a ‘Center-Right Nation’

That finding is supported by polling on individual fiscal issues over the past year. Recent surveys have shown that most Americans — including majorities of Republican voters — support increasing federal financing of health care and oppose cutting taxes for the wealthy. And there’s little evidence that the Democrats’ left flank is exhausting the public’s tolerance for government intervention in the economy: Recent polls have found that over 60 percent of Americans support tuition-free public college (a majority that includes 58 percent of independents and 47 percent of Republicans); that over 60 percent of all voters favor Medicaid and Medicare buy-in programs, while a slim majority likes the sound of single-payer; and that 82 percent of voters, including 70 percent of Republicans, support new legislation expanding access to paid family and medical leave.

The Democratic Party has failed to translate the popularity of progressive economics into electoral success for a variety of reasons. The most fundamental is the one we’ve already observed: Most voters cast their ballots on the basis of identity, not policy. And America’s rapidly changing demographics — and the right’s steadfast efforts to inflame and exploit anxieties about those changes — have made racial identity increasingly salient to white voters, particularly rural ones.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [43 favorites]

Full Robert Mercer statement including:

I supported Milo Yiannopoulos in the hope and expectation that his expression of views contrary to the social mainstream and his spotlighting of the hypocrisy of those who would close down free speech in the name of political correctness would promote the type of open debate and freedom of thought that is being throttled on many American college campuses today. But in my opinion, actions of and statements by Mr. Yiannopoulos have caused pain and divisiveness undermining the open and productive discourse that I had hoped to facilitate. I was mistaken to have supported him, and for several weeks have been in the process of severing all ties with him.

Excited to hear what Milo has to say about this feud on Twitter oh wait
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

Tax bill legislative text [pdf].
posted by melissasaurus at 8:32 AM on November 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

when Northam runs a campaign around the idea that gosh he's just a simple country doctor who'd love to work with Donald Trump

Are you kidding me with this nonsense claim?
posted by phearlez at 8:32 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Did some quick math, and Paul Ryan's claim that the average family will save $1182 on their taxes is $98.50 a month. And some of us are below average.
posted by puddledork at 8:33 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Seth Abramson's ... speculation thread on Popadopolis

How long did Papadopoulos work for Trump? Greek media says he was *meeting foreign dignitaries on behalf of Trump* at *the inauguration*.

A little late but the tweets linked here need to be taken with a good-sized lump of salt. Tweet #4 is the interesting one - apparently he claimed to have publicly quit of his own initiative and then come back to secretly work for the administration. I am shocked (shocked!) to consider that a fellow Greek may have been overselling the extent of their foreign connections.
posted by Dr Dracator at 8:34 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

And some of us are below average.

Way below, personally.
posted by phearlez at 8:36 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

I think the "Cuts Cuts Cuts" would have actually been better. "Tax Cuts and Jobs Cuts" is what the mind adds to fix the flow. "Jobs and Tax Cuts" at least flows properly.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:37 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

there is no faster way to get me to discount your opinion on politics than to humorously misspell someone’s name. Drumpf, tRump, $hillery, Killary, bLiar, etc. It’s unpleasant for all the same reasons that “Democrat Party” discussed upthread is unpleasant. It’s a tactic used by the dumbest kind of playground bullies. It isn’t funny. It’s ineffective and embarrassing. It reflects horribly on the person doing it.

It also messes up text analysis, CTRL-F and more importantly - reading!
posted by srboisvert at 8:41 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

Either the people who voted for Sanders in the Primaries but for Trump in the general election were Republican voters acting as spoilers against Clinton, or they were people that Clinton was unable to convince to vote for her. We can't do anything about the former group. But the latter group should be open to a good candidate.

Supporting data: my almost entirely white younger half-brother lives in one of the pa/mi/wi states that tanked things and he was for Kerry and loved the movie Loose Change when he was too young to vote, voted for Obama twice, supported Sanders, and then switched to Trump. Before getting back in touch with him after the election, I thought that people like that had to mostly be a myth. I don't honestly get it, but from talking to him, I get the impression that the outsider aspect was big for him, and he hoped that the wall would mean that he could get better jobs.

I think that I now have him primed to do the right thing in 2018 and 2020, but he is one among many. These people do exist and, as much as they infuriate me, especially when they are related to me, reaching them will probably be important in the future. Their generation feels that it has been sold down the river, and they will buy snake oil if they feel that the left isn't real about helping them.
posted by bootlegpop at 8:46 AM on November 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

Guys, the DNC is a national fundraising and marketing organization.

"The Democrats" are you and me and whoever shows up for their local meetings and caucuses and elections even in off years.

I really feel like all this focus on the DNC is a side effect of most of us reading too much national news and not enough local news. There is ONE national election every four years, and ALL the rest of the elections are local. You personally can have a much bigger influence on your local elections than the DNC does. So go wield that influence! My local Indivisible is setting up tables at local supermarkets to talk about issues, holding signs at every event our Republican congressman attends, and tweeting questions at local media that we want him to be asked when he goes on their shows. It is amazing.

And we don't really even need the DNC for interstate fundraising and marketing. Go donate to candidates in districts you think we should fight for via Swing Left, and help GOTV by writing your own mailing materials through Postcards to Voters.

Be the change you want to see! You don't have to fix the problems with the DNC in order to help fix our government!
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:47 AM on November 2, 2017 [67 favorites]

TBH I count the racist ones against people far more than the others, I never the same way that anyone who fucks around with M. Night Shyamalan's last name instantly goes in the asshole pile for me.
posted by Artw at 8:47 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

It's the Cuts Cuts Cuts Plan. Didn't you see the memo?
posted by fragmede at 8:47 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

To fix the problem of Too Many Brackets Making Taxes Complex, the GOP has created the following structure for business owners:

REDUCTION IN TAX TO ACHIEVE 25 PERCENT MAXIMUM RATE.—The tax imposed by section 1 shall be reduced by the sum of:
1. 10% of the lesser of
-(A) qualified business income; or
-(B) the excess (if any) of
--(i) taxable income reduced by net capital gain, over
--(ii) the maximum dollar amount for the 25% rate bracket which applies to the taxpayer under section 1 for the taxable year, and
2. 4.6% of the excess (if any) of
-(A) the lesser of
--(i) qualified business income, or
--(ii) the excess (if any) determined under paragraph (1)(B), over
-(B) the excess of
--(i) the maximum dollar amount for the 35% rate bracket which applies to the taxpayer udner section 1 for the taxable year, over
--(ii) the maximum dollar amount for the 25% rate bracket which applies to the taxpayer under section 1 for the taxable year.

And that's before we get into defining "qualified business income," applying the "increased percentage for capital-intensive business activities," and complying with all of the anti-avoidance rules.

SO SIMPLE!
posted by melissasaurus at 8:48 AM on November 2, 2017 [14 favorites]

Trump, during his campaign, promised to repeal the Johnson amendment. Don't know if the proposed legislation actually keeps this promise, though.
posted by puddledork at 8:49 AM on November 2, 2017

If the DNC isn't leading the Democratic party, then who is? And if no-one is, shouldn't someone, you know, do that?
posted by MrVisible at 8:53 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Why do we need national leadership for the Democratic party when there are no national races for three more years?

There are local races. And if you want to know who is leading your local Democratic party, go and find out! Put in some effort and you might find it is you!
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:56 AM on November 2, 2017 [15 favorites]

I really think it's time for a new thread, this one has... spread quite a bit from its genesis.
also, it's becoming unwieldy to load/scroll.

Perhaps a thread for the tax bill would be relevant?
posted by dreamling at 8:57 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

And that's before we get into defining "qualified business income," applying the "increased percentage for capital-intensive business activities," and complying with all of the anti-avoidance rules.

I mean, that's the core swindle the GOP tries to pull whenever it talks about taxes. They make it sound like tax brackets are these insanely complicated astrolabes of mathematics, when it's just a big table that a computer does for you anyway.

Defining what is and isn't income is the vast majority of the tax code and there's no "flat tax" that will make that go away.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:58 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

Well I guess we can confirm that Mercer is the money man behind Milo Notanazi.
posted by Yowser at 8:58 AM on November 2, 2017

There are local races. And if you want to know who is leading your local Democratic party, go and find out! Put in some effort and you might find it is you!

Having a national organization that actually gives a fuck about local races over purging anyone who isn't a centrist might help a wee bit there.
posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

Take a break from relitigating the primaries and GOTV in Virginia. Door knocking and phone banking from now thru Tuesday 11/7/17 Election Day.

Northam says he'd ban sanctuary cities if one ever appears in Virginia

blowing up my phone does not make up for this shit, fyi
posted by indubitable at 8:59 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

Is support for anti-choice candidates still part of the DNC's plan?
posted by Room 641-A at 9:03 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

Today in Nazi Watch:

Newsweek: JEWS SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS MORE THAN RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, NIGEL FARAGE SAYS

Tell me again that these people aren't Nazis?
posted by Xyanthilous P. Harrierstick at 9:06 AM on November 2, 2017 [80 favorites]

The tax bill:
-repeals deduction for student loan interest
-repeals tuition and fees deduction
-repeals exclusion of income from savings bonds used for higher education expenses (currently you don't pay tax when you redeem certain savings bonds and use the proceeds for higher ed)
-repeals exclusion of employer education incentives (currently you can get up to $5250/yr in tax-free tuition assistance from your employer)
-repeals the exclusion of tuition reduction (i.e., if you work at a uni and get lower tuition as a benefit, that's currently not considered taxable income)

So, if you want to go to grad school, particularly if you want to work while you do it, this plan thinks you should go fuck yourself.
posted by melissasaurus at 9:09 AM on November 2, 2017 [58 favorites]

Northam says he'd ban sanctuary cities if one ever appears in Virginia

Mid-2000s me would hate this statement, but: I'm gonna miss Terry McAuliffe. He's exceeded not only my minimal expectations for him specifically, but also seems like he's better than your average Democratic governor. Northam is not really giving the impression that he'll be in the same mold.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:09 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

Tell me again that these people aren't Nazis?

I think "neo-fascist" is probably a more accurate epithet than Nazi but tbh I'm not going to quibble.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:10 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

So, if you want to go to grad school, particularly if you want to work while you do it, this plan thinks you should go fuck yourself.

Between that and the grandfathering of mortgage interest it feels a lot like a fuck you to younger people. I guess the GOP never saw a ladder it didn't want to pull up behind itself.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:13 AM on November 2, 2017 [39 favorites]

Northam is the unquestionable lesser-evil of our two options, and you should vote for him if you live in Virginia, because he will be so, so, so much better than the alternative.

This isn't a fucking trolley problem. Don't stay home. Vote. (And, next time, push harder during the primaries!)
posted by schmod at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2017 [45 favorites]

Bloomberg: Time Warner Shares Fall on Report That AT&T Deal May Get Blocked

Yet another "leopards eating faces" moment because the CEO of AT&T is a rightwing Republican.
posted by The_Vegetables at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

No, I think it's impossible to not talk about the primaries while talking about the primaries. You're the one who wanted to try to write it some sort of pass by saying no no it's all about the future! Dressing up relitigation as here's the things we need to learn for the next time doesn't dodge that. Oh no, it's not a relitigation pie, it's a future pie! I just happened to stir a few cups of relitigation into it.

I'm going to reply to this both because I think it would be neglectful not to and also I think you're reading a lot into my comment that isn't there and wasn't implied.

This is what I meant: I sincerely believe that relitigating the primaries and getting upset over Clinton and Sanders aren't going to do us any good and as far as I'm concerned, the 2015 and 2016 primaries and the general election are over and done with. We desperately need to look forward and not get bogged down.

Democrats got spanked in 2016 across the country. We lost entire state legislatures and governorships. We lost even more Congressional races. Dems are no longer the majority party in over 30 states across this country. That needs to change. And yet with all their corruption and flaws and stupidity, the damned Dems are the only party I can support, because between them and the damned Republicans, they're the only ones who fight for things I believe in. Immigrants, minority rights, freedom from religion in government and education, rights for women, the poor and sadly, for the rule of law. So they need to be changed from within.

You seem to think I was making some other kind of argument, but I wasn't. I am deeply convinced that we must look to the future if we're going to move forward and make changes. That's my personal focus at the moment. My raison d'être. Electing good candidates to local and state offices. Tossing out corrupt pols who do nothing but cover their own asses and funnel money into pet projects to the detriment of others. Making sure that the people representing my city reflect my city in terms of its wonderful racial diversity. Am volunteering my time with two local political organizations devoted to minority groups and doing other things.

Feel free to have the last word. I've said my piece.
posted by zarq at 9:16 AM on November 2, 2017 [30 favorites]

Am happy for the pair of them to fuck off into the sun, TBH. Suspect the universe will not oblige me on that.
posted by Artw at 9:18 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Mid-2000s me would hate this statement, but: I'm gonna miss Terry McAuliffe. He's exceeded not only my minimal expectations for him specifically, but also seems like he's better than your average Democratic governor. Northam is not really giving the impression that he'll be in the same mold.

Nah, they're about the same quantity of mostly good with a number of shitty bits. McAuliffe has also exceeded my expectations and I was very pleased with the restoring of voting rights efforts. But he's done a shit job on transparency in general, most recently with Charlottesville details, and he's been a total rollover job for any sort of law enforcement. I think there's only so good a dem governor you can be in Virginia if you expect to do anything other than just veto shit and get overridden by our shitty legislature.
posted by phearlez at 9:19 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

can we simultaneously acknowledge that Northam running a center-right campaign is dumb and will lose him votes and maybe the election and also that everyone should vote for Northam?

Or is the Democratic Party a centralist organization on Trotskyist lines, where after a period of nominally democratic debate we all must publicly enthusiastically support whatever the central organization has decided on?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:19 AM on November 2, 2017 [18 favorites]

Did some quick math, and Paul Ryan's claim that the average family will save $1182 on their taxes is $98.50 a month. And some of us are below average.

I wonder what he means by average family?

15.6 million single mom households
6.3 million single dad households
2.5 million single man households
2.4 million single woman households

The majority of Americans over 16 are not married.

Thanks to separation, divorce, deaths and remarriage families and households are not the same thing and children can be members of two different households (or more! thanks grandpa and grandma!).

The percentage of women 40 and up who are childless is between 15-20% and is correlated with education (25% of women with a uni degree are voluntarily childless)

With the trend of women delaying giving birth even couples who want children are childless for a substantial portion of their relationships/lives.

Even if you are in an average family at the moment there are good odds you may not be for too long.

Average Family is an obfuscatory bullshit unit for political propaganda purposes. It's kind of a dog whistle like "tax payer" replacing person or "real american" replacing person.

*Paul Ryan himself did not come from an "Average Family" having lost his father at 16 and gained a step-father later.
posted by srboisvert at 9:22 AM on November 2, 2017 [58 favorites]

can we simultaneously acknowledge that Northam running a center-right campaign is dumb and will lose him votes and maybe the election and also that everyone should vote for Northam?

there was a recent election where constant slagging on the center-rightedness of the candidate while grudgingly accepting that they should probably be voted in anyway did not have great results in the end

give me a few minutes and I'll be able to remember which race it was
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [18 favorites]

You seem to think I was making some other kind of argument, but I wasn't.

I really don't, and I didn't have a problem with the content of your comment in particular. But I don't think it's possible for us, here in this place at this time, to have a discussion that contains any lookback on the primaries and DNC and talk about mismanagement versus malfeasance and not have it turn into a big old shitstorm (sometimes inevitable) that is 99% the same crap that's been done over and over (pointless and painful).

Maybe that will become an unavoidable misery at some point but I refuse to accept that it is so with 3 years before the next national.
posted by phearlez at 9:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Also, Sarah Huckabee Sanders said that having to talk to the press is Trump's "flaw," and then overtly lied about a statement Trump made on tape. The media needs to stop submitting to her displays of contempt.

the media needs to start pointing and laughing at her.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 9:26 AM on November 2, 2017 [26 favorites]

Man oh man what is it with fear and hatred of sanctuary cities? It’s gotta be the name (like with the “Diversity visa” immigration program). It sounds like liberal PC molly coddling so obviously it’s icky and oughta be banned. But if you peel back the name, both are reasonable, non coddling public policies that make us all richer and safer.

Gah.
posted by notyou at 9:27 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

Bloomberg: Time Warner Shares Fall on Report That AT&T Deal May Get Blocked

This seems bad, not because blocking big telecom/media mergers is bad, but because the Trump administration has been anonymously threatening to block the deal due to anger over CNN's coverage. Will Time Warner start firing CNN staff who are thorns in the administration's side?

I'm curious about their calculus on this - if they'd find it a better move to risk scandal and lawsuits by capitulating and firing people, or to prepare to have the merger shot down and then sue the administration for blocking it because of Trump's documented CNN grudge and documented White House speculation about using the merger as leverage in that fight. The latter would shift the dialogue away from whether or not the merger should happen on its own merits and make it all about the corrupt behavior of Trump, which may be more beneficial to TW and AT&T because so far the Trump administration sucks at winning lawsuits and it would pave the way for the merger to go ahead by default if TW and AT&T won.

I mean personally I'd love to see Trump smacked down on this AND see the merger fail, but I'm curious what kind of hand TW and AT&T think they're holding while Trump is trying to bluff with nothing.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:29 AM on November 2, 2017

So, on the tax plan, I currently pay ~15% (based on my last paycheck) in federal income tax (not including any of the others like social security or medicare). Based on the news, I'll be paying 25% next year, as I make more than $45,000 but less than $250,000 and am single.

I imagine that, given roughly 50% of adults are unmarried currently, this is going to go over super well with the general public if, say, the New York Times were to report on it honestly.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:36 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

"... loved the movie Loose Change when he was too young to vote, voted for Obama twice, supported Sanders, and then switched to Trump ... I get the impression that the outsider aspect was big for him ..."

I think there are people who, for whatever reasons, take a fundamentally conspiratorial approach to their experience of the world. A lot of these people, if they bother to vote or engage with politics at all are going to endorse any candidate who seems like "an outsider," who promises to "shake things up," or who appeals to (or who even can seem to appeal to) an "us vs them" narrative. That's what this kind of voter responds to most eagerly—and it really doesn't matter if the candidate is a liberal, conservative, socialist, or fascist. And unfortunately I think there are more of these kinds of voters than any of us suspected.

Interestingly, the Loose Change movies were a kind of catalyzing moment for me, too. They were the moment when my 90s attitude of "conspiracy theories are fun" changed to "conspiracy theories are idiotic and possibly dangerous."
posted by octobersurprise at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2017 [33 favorites]

Northam says he'd ban sanctuary cities if one ever appears in Virginia

There is a backstory to this.

The Republican controlled Virginia state legislature proposed a bill to ban sanctuary cities (even though there aren't any in VA) and then the Republican majority leader Thomas Norment deliberately defected to set up a tied vote, and force Northam as Lt Gov. to cast the tiebreaking vote. He voted against the ban, killing the bill. But then the legislature brought it up again and this time Norment voted in favor, so that the bill passed (only to be vetoed by the Democratic governor.)

Northam’s team accused Norment of plotting to force the lieutenant governor to make a vote that would later become irrelevant.

“Norment declined to comment, and later grinned as a reporter tried to coax out information on whether the Senate majority leader was colluding with the Gillespie campaign to set up the lieutenant governor,” according to the Richmond Times-Dispatch.

Now Gillespie is airing attack ads in VA featuring footage of the gang MS13 and saying that Northam supports MS13 because he "cast the deciding vote in favor of sanctuary cities."

This is SUCH a stupid, disingenuous attack, I almost can't blame Northam for wanting to just take the entirely hypothetical issue off the table. I think the fact that he DID vote as he did shows that he would, if forced to keep this campaign promise, define "sanctuary cities" in a way that minimized the harm. So if anyone was having any second thoughts about voting for him based on that statement, please take the circumstances into account. And please help explain the circumstances to others.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [29 favorites]

That's a hedge. We should have fucking headlines reading "White House Spokesperson unable to confirm that the President thinks slavery was wrong", and the only reason we don't is because the so called liberal media is utterly spineless and leans right.

Oh, she was able to.

She just refused to.

How's that for a headline?
posted by Gelatin at 9:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

The 9/11 Truther movie? The one produced by noted conspiracist and Trumpist Alex Jones?

Color me surprised he went and voted for Trump...

I'm betting he really thought it was about ethics in game journalism...

Despite the fact that you are being incredibly condescending towards me about my brother, I'm going to respond to this in as polite of a manner as I am capable.

He doesn't own a computer. He doesn't know what 4chan is. I'm not sure how many poor people you know, but a lot of them don't have computers. Furthermore, my recollection was that 911 conspiracies were a far more left wing thing in 2003, back when the person that you are assuming things about was underage. Lefties mostly thought that Jones was amusing back then, and indy directors cast him in their films for shits and giggles. Now that they are associated with MAGAs, left wing people have shied away from conspiracy theories like they are a dead skunk for the most part, but Bush/9-11/Iraq caused a lot of magical thinking on the left too for a decent chunk of time.

Your attitude is the kind of attitude that discourages bringing people back to the right side. I score somewhere around the lower left hand corner of the lower left hand quadrant on the political quadrant test, and your response makes me sort of wish that we were on different sides.

I'm not happy with the decision that he made, and I obviously also felt that Loose Change fandom was a potential point of interest, but assuming extra stuff with no basis based on someone's tastes from 15 years ago isn't helpful and is rather rude. If we are actually ever going to bring non-voters, swing Trump voters, and 3rd party people back into the fold, focusing on imaginary mistakes that they didn't make in lieu of the ones that they did isn't going to be of assistance. Plus, I didn't post that stuff about him for the sake of people crapping on him for things he didn't do. Voting for Trump is bad enough that you don't have to imagine a bunch of other fake things just to score points. The right wing bubble is a way bigger problem, but maybe you too should also take a look outside of yours. Not everyone is a perfect case study where you can assume x, y, and z about them because of a and b. That's not how the world works.
posted by bootlegpop at 9:42 AM on November 2, 2017 [37 favorites]

>there was a recent election where constant slagging on the center-rightedness of the candidate while grudgingly accepting that they should probably be voted in anyway did not have great results in the end

More 2016 Sanders primary voters voted for Clinton in the general than 2008 Clinton primary voters voted for Obama in the 2008 general. Clinton's loss was multicausal, but the primary cause was interference from Putinists.

That said: Please, everyone with the bandwidth, find a way to trick yourselves into being able to persuasively argue for Northam on the telephone and then make a bunch of phone calls where you talk about how wonderful and brilliant he is.

But in private, and in debate spaces that don't matter in the short term, do remember that center-right rhetoric and policy loses votes. Lie to potential voters — lie to potential voters as often and as convincingly as possible — but don't lie to yourselves.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:43 AM on November 2, 2017 [19 favorites]

That tax bracket thing? That's loony tunes! Your taxes would literally more than double if you went from making 44,000 to 46,000.

I don't understand why people hate tax brackets. If anything, we could use more of them - why should someone who makes, eg, $30,000 pay the same percentage of taxes as someone who makes $35,000? (I'm making that up, not having consulted the tax table.)
posted by Frowner at 9:44 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Elections are happening right now

LOCAL elections, yes. Run by the local parties and the local candidates.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:44 AM on November 2, 2017

lie to potential voters as often and as convincingly as possible

Please don't.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:47 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Do state/county/city party associations coordinate with the national committees? I was under the impression they get some funding and help from the national ones.
posted by numaner at 9:47 AM on November 2, 2017

National committees exist to raise money and do marketing, so yes, they do that. But they don't run the campaigns.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:50 AM on November 2, 2017

I think there are people who, for whatever reasons, take a fundamentally conspiratorial approach to their experience of the world.

Loose Change seemed really dorky to me, but I used to be like that to an extent. The only saving grace was that I looked at conspiracies from more of a discordian/agnostic aspect, since reading Wilson in middle school was a big influence on me. Having 4 am conversations over a bong in my early 20's over weirdo conspiracy crap was fun. It ceased to seem fun when I realized that people were being eaten up and ruined by it. At that point, I decided to keep my "well you never know"s to myself since clearly some people couldn't handle the mental gymnastics of speculation.
posted by bootlegpop at 9:50 AM on November 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

Lie to potential voters — lie to potential voters as often and as convincingly as possible — but don't lie to yourselves.

Or maybe be honest instead?

Voters are used to voting for the lesser of two evils. Being honest with them is certainly more ethical. It also prevents them from being outraged down the road if the candidate isn't what was promised.
posted by zarq at 9:51 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Today in Nazi Watch:

Newsweek: JEWS SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS MORE THAN RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, NIGEL FARAGE SAYS

Heads up that this link autoplayed a not-good ad-video about dogs that was not intensely graphic but will wreck your day.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:51 AM on November 2, 2017

Tax brackets only apply to the portion of income in the bracket. If you make $46,000 you would pay the low rate on the first $45,000 and the higher rate on the last $1000. Ergo, “marginal tax rates.”

Of course they do! I even know that! I've even typed it out on metafilter!

It just goes to show that I am so freaked out about this whole thing that I can't even muster the information I actually have. Okay, never mind. In that case, they should change the whole thing so that they are taxing me personally more - I don't need my taxes to go down, for pete's sake.
posted by Frowner at 9:51 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

But in private, and in debate spaces that don't matter in the short term, do remember that center-right rhetoric and policy loses votes. Lie to potential voters — lie to potential voters as often and as convincingly as possible — but don't lie to yourselves.

Yes indeed, this is a foolproof, winning strategy. /s
posted by Fidel Cashflow at 9:52 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

zarq: "Voters are used to voting for the lesser of two evils. Being honest with them is certainly more ethical. It also prevents them from being outraged down the road if the candidate isn't what was promised."

prize bull octorok: "there was a recent election where constant slagging on the center-rightedness of the candidate while grudgingly accepting that they should probably be voted in anyway did not have great results in the end"

These are mutually exclusive viewpoints. This is the point YCTAB was making, I believe.
posted by TypographicalError at 9:58 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

> If the Democrats could take their eyes off of their barely-realistic pipe dream in Alamaba, they're about to blow an easily-winnable election in Virginia....the numbers are looking bleaker and bleaker.

I live here, and I've been following the polls pretty closely. I disagree with this interpretation. The polls have been noisy lately, but the reputable pollsters that have been polling the race repeatedly over the past few months, Quinnipiac, WaPo and FOX, have all been showing a trend of increasing margins for Northam. This doesn't mean I think we'll win by as large a margin as the latest Quinnipiac poll is showing, but looking at trends in results from pollsters with an established track record who've polled the race multiple times is a way of separating the signal from the noise.

I picked these three pollsters because they have long track record in polling, all of them have good to OK ratings from 538, and they've all polled the VA race multiple times, which means their results can be with earlier results from the same pollster to see if there's a trend, because they use the same sampling and likely-voter screening methodology each time. That they're all showing the same trend is encouraging. The other polls in this race are one-offs or from polling outfits that don't much of a track record. If results from the most reliable pollsters in this race were pointing the other way, I'd be worried. But they're not. They're showing a shrinking number of undecided voters, with most undecideds settling for Northam.

The poll that counts is days away, when we actually elect our governor and delegates in the state legislature. We'll see who's been right about turn-out then.
posted by nangar at 10:00 AM on November 2, 2017 [14 favorites]

Or is the Democratic Party a centralist organization on Trotskyist lines, where after a period of nominally democratic debate we all must publicly enthusiastically support whatever the central organization has decided on?

I thought we weren't relitigating 2016 here
posted by Apocryphon at 10:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

Why do people find it so hard to support Northam? You shouldn't need to lie even if you thought Perriello was a better candidate, that is no longer one of your choices.

If you support Northam over Gillespie, then you support Northam and that's all there is to it. Get your guy elected and then you can talk about finding someone better the next time around. You can bet your bottom dollar that the GOP is doing the same but in the other direction.

Didn't have this conversation throughout 2016 about Bernie, Clinton, and Trump enough?
posted by VTX at 10:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [24 favorites]

Newsweek: JEWS SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS MORE THAN RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, NIGEL FARAGE SAYS

Neo nazi says something antisemitic. Film at 11.
posted by zarq at 10:06 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Why do people find it so hard to support Northam?

I have answers but they would be (rightfully) flagged.

I live here, and I've been following the polls pretty closely. I disagree with this interpretation. The polls have been noisy lately

Ditto on all these things, but I suspect the reality may be that this is just going to be near impossible to poll. Polarization being what it is this race seems like it's going to be almost entirely down to turnout in cities versus turnout everywhere else. I'm not sure how effectively you can poll that. This could come down to where its raining on Tuesday.
posted by phearlez at 10:11 AM on November 2, 2017

Hi were you all trying to give a clear, easy reason to pitch a holy fit over this bill?

Because you gave them a reason to pitch an unholy fit over this bill
posted by Tevin at 10:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [9 favorites]

These are mutually exclusive viewpoints. This is the point YCTAB was making, I believe.

The point that came across was an earnest plea to lie to the voting public.
posted by zarq at 10:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

...Being honest with them is certainly more ethical.
...constant slagging on the center-rightedness of the candidate ... did not have great results

These are mutually exclusive viewpoints. This is the point YCTAB was making, I believe.

Nah. Enthusiastically support the candidates you can enthusiastically support, and just shut up about the ones you don't love but still prefer to the alternative. (Or talk about how much you dislike the alternative.) That's what I try to do.
posted by OnceUponATime at 10:12 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

> Newsweek: JEWS SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS MORE THAN RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, NIGEL FARAGE SAYS

Wow, just saying it out loud and proud now?

And:

> thanks, melissasaurus, for all the links to, and personal insight on, tax issues over the last howevermany threads it's been. It's has been (and is) very much appreciated.

Very strongly seconded - probably the second or third time in this very thread that I'm saying thank you. I mean, just look at this comment:

REDUCTION IN TAX TO ACHIEVE 25 PERCENT MAXIMUM RATE.
—The tax imposed by section 1 shall be reduced by the sum of:
1. 10% of the lesser of
-(A) qualified business income; or
-(B) the excess (if any) of
--(i) taxable income reduced by net capital gain, over
--(ii) the maximum dollar amount for the 25% rate bracket which applies to the taxpayer under section 1 for the taxable year, and
2. 4.6% of the excess (if any) of
-(A) the lesser of
--(i) qualified business income, or
--(ii) the excess (if any) determined under paragraph (1)(B), over
-(B) the excess of
--(i) the maximum dollar amount for the 35% rate bracket which applies to the taxpayer udner section 1 for the taxable year, over
--(ii) the maximum dollar amount for the 25% rate bracket which applies to the taxpayer under section 1 for the taxable year.

This is what counts as a simplified tax code? This is BULLSHIT.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:13 AM on November 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

David Roberts, Vox: America is facing an epistemic crisis: What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn’t matter?

... we are disturbingly close to the following scenario:

Say Mueller reveals hard proof that the Trump campaign knowingly colluded with Russia, strategically using leaked emails to hurt Clinton’s campaign. Say the president — backed by the Wall Street Journal editorial page, Fox News, Breitbart, most of the US Cabinet, half the panelists on CNN, most of the radio talk show hosts in the country, and an enormous network of Russian-paid hackers and volunteer shitposters working through social media — rejects the evidence.
...
Say the entire right-wing media machine kicks to life and dismisses the whole thing as a scam — and conservatives believe them. The conservative base remains committed to Trump, politicians remain scared to cross the base, and US politics remains stuck in partisan paralysis, unable to act on what Mueller discovers.

In short, what if Mueller proves the case and it’s not enough? What if there is no longer any evidentiary standard that could overcome the influence of right-wing media?

Understanding how we got to this point and what it is doesn't suggest easy answers either. The scariest thing is this:

That’s what US elites are truly afraid to confront: What if facts and persuasion just don’t matter anymore?

posted by ZeusHumms at 10:14 AM on November 2, 2017 [118 favorites]

I guess when you found a country under a creation mythos of being oppressed (despite being a bunch of wealthy well-educated landowners, burghers, and slavers), the people who live there will always think of themselves as oppressed and in the right.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:17 AM on November 2, 2017 [14 favorites]

Above, fluttering hellfire wrote:

I'm going to PtV with a bulk lot of ones with the state bird. I'm weirdly giddy about doing this.

I'm no expert on Alabama but believe that that's the wrong bird (and therefore not advisable for a postcard campaign..)

The picture on it is taken in New Zealand, suggesting it is the Eurasian yellowhammer, whereas I believe the yellowhammer that is the state bird of Alabama is a sub-population of the northern flicker.
posted by Nerd of the North at 10:17 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

From the Kumail Nanjiani Twitter thread mentioned upthread:

We are realizing that ZERO consideration seems to be given to the ethical implications of tech.

Yes. This, a thousand times. I mentioned this when we were talking about shooting drones.
posted by hanov3r at 10:18 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

In short, what if Mueller proves the case and it’s not enough? What if there is no longer any evidentiary standard that could overcome the influence of right-wing media?

They all* get thrown in prison on unpardonable state charges in New York. We're still a nation of laws, and crimes are still crimes.

*save probably Trump during his term of office, depending upon what the courts say.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:20 AM on November 2, 2017 [18 favorites]

ZeusHumms, thanks for posting that - I just got done reading it and was about to post it here! It was scary reading for me, not only because a sizable portion of Americans seem untethered from anything resembling facts and truth, but because the mainstream media, and liberals and even centrists in general, don't seem to be able to do anything about it. If their side is comprised of face-eating leopards, what is our side? Mice? Rabbits? Some other timid prey animal?

I think I've posted and reflected on that media cloud in the Vox article before, but it bears repeating: we, the lefties and liberals, are not in a bubble. The right is. They are the ones getting all their news from Infowars and Breitbart and Fox. The liberal who gets all their news from Alternet and Daily Kos is a rare, rare bird. Most liberals will look at Daily Kos and then turn to the New York Times and/or the Washington Post and/or The Economist.

I keep wondering what is more important: do we get out the vote? (do-able) can we dismantle the Infowars/Breitbart ecosystem? (I wish, but probably not) Can we confiscate most of the Mercer and Koch wealth that funds this ecosystem? (a girl can dream)
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:20 AM on November 2, 2017 [11 favorites]

I think there are people who, for whatever reasons, take a fundamentally conspiratorial approach to their experience of the world.

I have two thoughts on that, but they both boil down to the idea that (despite their surface level reading) conspiracies tend to be easy.

First, conspiracies flatten complicated conflicts of political economy into simplistic battles of good versus evil. While it can be difficult to take a side on a political debate held in good faith (so, nothing from American politics for the past decade), it is astonishingly easy to put yourself on the side of right. Conspiracy thinking is an abdication of complex (and painful) political thought which often asks people (especially people in dominant white, male, cis-het roles) to make sacrifices and acknowledge their own faults.

Secondly, conspiracies offer a system of mastery. Real history has any number of digression, interpretations, conflicting sources, and unsatisfying endings. Conspiracy thinking offers a dramatic structure that lays everything out in neat, linear structure (this happened because this group has this goal). The lie of a conspiracy is a cork board with a thousand red strands of yarn - it's true that it's complicated, but try laying out actual history in such a manner. I hope you have more cork boards. So, in a certain way, conspiracies are game-like. If a game is a piece of life that we set aside, assign special rules to, and invest with a very specific goal, then conspiracy thinking accomplishes all of this in a way that engagement with actual history (with every messy contingency) does not.

Many of our modern conspiracies are latching onto people who would have a deep personal reason for wanting to escape actual politics and actual history with a fantasy - that's the only way that they can think of their self as heroic, when much of their actions and life is a direct result of making other humans deeply miserable. That fantasy then offers them stuff to do - they can play detective in #pizzagate in a way that they would be ultimately helpless to do in the face of (say) global warming abetted by global capital. They get to be the hero, and they get a game-level recreation of actual political action where all of the moves are much more immediate and satisfying.
posted by codacorolla at 10:21 AM on November 2, 2017 [22 favorites]

I'm a mid-level administrator where I work. For the sake of this discussion, what's important to know about this is that when it's time to make major, controversial decisions, I might be consulted but I don't get to make the decision. During the consultation period, I will use every rhetorical device and piece of evidence at my command to argue my point.

That said, when the decision is made, whether I agree with it or not, it's my job to get on board with decision (no matter how wrong I might think it is) and do everything I can to make it work. For me, that includes shutting up about my objections because my chunk of co- workers listen to opinion and my continued objections don't inspire them to try and make the decision work.

This is not lying - this is acknowledging that maybe I'm not always right and that making things work must be more important than appearing correct if it doesn't work.

That's also how I feel about party politics. There's a time for debate and a time to get on board and work like hell to get people from our party elected. As shitty as some candidates are, if we can count them as regular and reliable votes against the evil policies of the gobshites, we should get them elected. The lesser of two evils is still less evil. Sign me up for less evil every time if that's the only other choice. I'll campaign loudly and enthusiastically.

And if they lose, I can still bask in the warm glow of "I was correct" smugness the next time we start seriously debating who the next candidate should be. But yeah once a candidate has been selected, I'm only going to talk about what I like about them until the election is over because I don't want to discourage my less - informed - than - I friends to get discouraged and not vote - or worse, vote for some gobshite because their supporters seem so enthusiastic about them

In brief, it's ok to stop trashing a candidate you're voting for but don't like until after the election because you can be genuinely enthusiastic about working to keep the gobshites out.

(It's also ok not to vote for candidates from your party who are actual gobshites, c.f. forced brothers, etc)
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:22 AM on November 2, 2017 [38 favorites]

Multiple sources tell me the House GOP tax bill is called: “The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.”

Surely they misheard. It's "The Tax and Jobs Cuts Act".
posted by hanov3r at 10:24 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

> can anyone give me the Playskool version of what happens next to the Cut Cut Cut whatever bill? Like the voting/amendment schedule and process? Is it potentially DOA before a vote?

The bill gets debated, amended, and eventually[*] put to a vote on the floor of the House. And it, or something like it, gets introduced, debated, amended, and eventually[*] put to a vote in the Senate. The optimistic calendar says this happens in mid November.

Then, if there are any differences between the passed bills, possibly one chamber votes to accept the other one's product, or the bill goes to reconciliation, and is then put to a vote in both the House and Senate. The optimistic calendar has this happen before early December.

Then the bill goes to Trump's desk for his signature, and if he doesn't throw a hissy fit about the name or how great the cuts are, it gets signed into law. The optimistic schedule has this happen in December, before he is impeached, or flees to Russia, or what have you.

If the Republican leaders feel like the bill might not pass, and don't want the embarrassment (or they want to preserve the Reconciliation vehicle for further attempts), they can pull the bill at the points marked [*] (or at any time before, really) and then it just hangs in limbo.

This is hideously oversimplified, but you asked for the Playskool version, and I don't think it is incorrect in major points... (If it is, someone please correct me!)
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:27 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

>Nah. Enthusiastically support the candidates you can enthusiastically support, and just shut up about the ones you don't love but still prefer to the alternative. (Or talk about how much you dislike the alternative.) That's what I try to do.

And then get slagged for being insufficiently enthusiastic in your support for candidates you honestly find mediocre.

I know a ton of PR people. I know a ton of people who've worked in communications for electeds. Politics is about skilled rhetoric, not about always directly living your truth as honestly as possible. That's why I'm annoyed by people who claim to be on the left and make arguments about maintaining personal purity instead of tactically supporting people with miserable politics. <That's also why I'm annoyed by people who claim to be liberals and don't accept the tactical support of people to their left unless they can demonstrate at all times and in all ways that their support is more than tactical.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [14 favorites]

The epistemic crisis David Roberts talks about is a persistent source of horror to me. At this point, I'm ready to write off the Republican base as a lost cause because of it. We aren't operating from the same fundamental reality. Those of us on the outside of the right wing bubble can do nothing to puncture it. Any plan that relies on convincing the Republican base of anything is doomed to fail unless Fox News, et al. go along with it. I just don't see how the divide can be breached, not without Fox News going down, and that seems vanishingly unlikely.
posted by yasaman at 10:30 AM on November 2, 2017 [30 favorites]

What's wrong with telling the truth? A particular Democrat may be mediocre but every fucking Republican will work towards tearing our country down.
posted by LarsC at 10:31 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

Newsweek: JEWS SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS MORE THAN RUSSIAN INFLUENCE, NIGEL FARAGE SAYS

The Dismal Failure of Jewish Groups to Confront Trump: A new generation of activists, disappointed by the mainstream Jewish response to bigotry, has come to the fore.
posted by homunculus at 10:35 AM on November 2, 2017 [14 favorites]

VA people, remember Northam is for women's right to choose and is strongly supported by Planned Parenthood. They're spending big bucks because "Enron Ed" is so bad for women. Northam's support for women's rights was something that perked up my ears during the primary season.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:42 AM on November 2, 2017 [27 favorites]

Okay, forget 2016 then. What's been done to improve how DNC handles party finances since last year? How has the situation of funding down-ballot races improved since then?
posted by Apocryphon at 10:49 AM on November 2, 2017

Couple comments removed. Y'all please go ahead and read the mod notes in the thread from between several hours ago and now before picking up on a chain of conversation from several hours ago. I'm preemptively exhausted by the idea of another from-scratch go-around on the primaries and Hillary and Bernie and the DNC and so on but if someone really feels like that Brazile thing is worth discussing as something other than just an excuse to have those arguments again and see if someone manages to win this time, please just make a post about it and frame it in a way that is clear why it's not just "...oooooh, fight!"
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:51 AM on November 2, 2017 [26 favorites]

from homonculus' link:

IfNotNow, a movement of young Jews seeking to end the American Jewish community’s support for the Israeli occupation of Palestine (disclosure: I also organize with the group), has also been active fighting white supremacy and anti-Semitism in the U.S.

I worry about the conflation of Israeli policy choices with regard to Palestine (which reasonable folks can disagree about) with antisemitism (which should be universally condemned).

Particularly because, at least on the left, there's a significant amount of disguised antisemitism among some of those who take strong pro Palestine, anti Israel positions (and I'm speaking as one who is a strong supporter of an independent Palestine, a right to return, and an end to settlements). Remember the Dyke March kerfuffle?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:55 AM on November 2, 2017 [11 favorites]

Understanding how we got to this point and what it is doesn't suggest easy answers either. The scariest thing is this:

That’s what US elites are truly afraid to confront: What if facts and persuasion just don’t matter anymore?

I...I think this was fairly clear through all of 2016?

We no longer have a consensus reality, and people's beliefs will not change because they are now tied to identity. I don't think there are many good outcomes for a society without a consensus reality and with strong, opposing tribal identifications.

Personally, I am rather morbidly pinning my hopes on the advanced age of much of the right wing. Our resistance has to last long enough that they're not able to tear the country apart entirely, or kill everyone they don't like by a thousand cuts, or Gilead the entire thing to hell. If they manage to push it too far, I think the worst will happen.

Jesus fuck I hate writing that.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:58 AM on November 2, 2017 [27 favorites]

We no longer have a consensus reality, and people's beliefs will not change because they are now tied to identity. I don't think there are many good outcomes for a society without a consensus reality and with strong, opposing tribal identifications.

When I feel despondent about our divergent realities, I just look at this graph. Given time, enough facts get through to people to slowly change their understanding.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 11:02 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

We no longer have a consensus reality, and people's beliefs will not change because they are now tied to identity. I don't think there are many good outcomes for a society without a consensus reality and with strong, opposing tribal identifications.

But we do have a consensus reality, it's just that Republicans have opted out of it. The rest of the world (correctly) thinks that the Republicans and the Brexiteers are nuts. And they're right.

It's only Republicans' beliefs that change drastically depending upon what their leaders tell them.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:05 AM on November 2, 2017 [25 favorites]

ZeusHumms: That’s what US elites are truly afraid to confront: What if facts and persuasion just don’t matter anymore?

Well, it's already half true: Why Facts Don’t Change Our Minds -- New discoveries about the human mind show the limitations of reason. (By Elizabeth Kolbert for the New Yorker, Feb. 27, 2017 issue)

I posted this link in a prior thread with a pullquote, but in short: this problem has been documented and described since the 1970s, with each successive test confirming the ways we get set in our ways, despite clear evidence being presented that should change our minds. In the end, emotional persuasion is the more reliable route, "but doing so is obviously antithetical to the goal of promoting sound science."

“The challenge that remains,” they write toward the end of their book, “is to figure out how to address the tendencies that lead to false scientific belief.”

The "they" being Jack Gorman, a psychiatrist, and his daughter, Sara Gorman, a public-health specialist, who wrote Denying to the Grave: Why We Ignore the Facts That Will Save Us (Goodreads; Amazon)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:08 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

GOP "tax" bill repeals the Johnson Amendment preventing political campaigning by churches.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:09 AM on November 2, 2017 [38 favorites]

Trump women’s ambassador pick says ‘Frozen’ is anti-men

Penny Nance, president and CEO of the conservative Christian nonprofit Concerned Women for America, reposted her "Fox & Friends" critique of the popular film on Wednesday as groups opposed to her nomination rallied against her.

For the record, I liked Frozen but ... the point is we want to raise sons to be heroes willing to protect women," Nance posted on Twitter, along with the clip of the 2015 segment when she said movies like Frozen "villainize" masculinity and depict men as "superfluous."

"We don't have to empower women at the cost of tearing down men," Nance said. "Men are essential in our society."

posted by Room 641-A at 11:10 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

They slipped a bit into the tax bill to allow people to buy 529 college savings plans for any "unborn child," defined as "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

Which...Among my many questions, how is the IRS supposed to implement this? What happens if you start a 529 plan for your unborn child, and then it turns out you're having twins?
posted by zachlipton at 11:11 AM on November 2, 2017 [39 favorites]

> What happens if you start a 529 plan for your unborn child, and then it turns out you're having twins?

Or - do you get to cash out miscarriages at a tax-advantaged rate?

Because the ghoulish implications probably haven't been thought through by the people who came up with this idea.
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:13 AM on November 2, 2017 [50 favorites]

New York and New Jersey Republicans oppose Tax Bill.

Small businesses lobby, too.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:14 AM on November 2, 2017 [26 favorites]

I worry about the conflation of Israeli policy choices with regard to Palestine (which reasonable folks can disagree about) with antisemitism (which should be universally condemned).

Me, too. That article didn't reflect my reality at all. I have email calls to action from a bunch of different Jewish groups the author didn't mention, and I'll wager a guess it's because those groups are too Zionist for him. And I stepped back from local activist groups precisely because of both overt and disguised antisemitism.

The local Modern Orthodox rabbi is very vocally anti-Trump. Zionism is part of the MO of MO. So it also shouldn't be assumed that Zionist = Trump supporter.
posted by Ruki at 11:15 AM on November 2, 2017 [5 favorites]

allow people to buy 529 college savings plans for any "unborn child," defined as "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

How is this really different from right now? You can change the 529 plan beneficiary at any time. I started a 529 plan in my own name when my wife got pregnant, for instance, but it's for my daughter.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:16 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

AGH. You can already start a 529 plan in your name (which is what you need to do for minors anyway), and then transfer the beneficiary over to any child you have, at any point! That is such pointless, anti-women legislation, just to get some sort of "conception=life" into law. AGH
Heck, grandparents can start 529 plans in with grandchildren as the beneficiary. And if their grandchildren don't want to go to school, they can use it for themselves! THERE IS NO POINT TO THAT LEGISLATION.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 11:18 AM on November 2, 2017 [33 favorites]

Because starting a 529 in your name and changing the beneficiary to your daughter later isn't going to help Republicans enact their religious beliefs into law.
posted by zachlipton at 11:18 AM on November 2, 2017 [15 favorites]

They slipped a bit into the tax bill to allow people to buy 529 college savings plans for any "unborn child," defined as "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

So, if you're limited on 401(k) contributions, just get pregnant, set up a 529, and use Plan B. Do that monthly and you can sock away tons of money for your kids (and grand-kids, because you can change the beneficiary!) and get tax deferred (or tax free for qualified expenses!) growth.

Qualified expenses include room and board, which covers a significant portion of expenses. Tax-free.

Abortions FTW!
posted by leotrotsky at 11:20 AM on November 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

pedantic but important: plan b isn't an abortion
posted by mosst at 11:23 AM on November 2, 2017 [47 favorites]

New reporting deals another big blow to Trump’s dangerous Russia spin
The new reporting is also cause to revisit the posture of Republican lawmakers toward the Russian meddling efforts during the 2016 election. As The Post has reported, Obama administration officials privately asked senior congressional officials in both parties to show a united front against Russian sabotage, but Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) refused, claiming (in The Post’s words) that “he would consider any effort by the White House to challenge the Russians publicly an act of partisan politics.”

Former CIA director John Brennan has delivered new public remarks about this that deserve attention. Brennan told “Frontline” the following about this meeting:

“In those briefings of Congress, some of the individuals expressed concern that this was motivated by partisan interests on the part of the [Obama] administration. And I took offense to that. I told them that this is an intelligence assessment; that this is an intelligence matter.”

What oh what does Robert Mueller know? A lot, I bet.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:26 AM on November 2, 2017 [43 favorites]

More tax bill gems:
-Coverdell education accounts are gone; up to $10k/yr from a 529 can be used for private K-12 school (Coverdell accts had contribution limits, age restrictions, and income limits; 529s don't -- this is DeVos in action)
-eliminates the deduction for teachers who buy supplies out of pocket (currently capped at $250)
-mortgage deduction limitation would apply to indebtedness incurred on or after today (not Jan 1 2018)
-eliminates dependent care FSAs
-maintains carried interest treatment
-repeals the Johnson amendment
-businesses can carry NOLs forward indefinitely (currently 20 year carryforward limit)

And as zachlipton mentioned, the availability of a 529 for an "unborn child" -- currently I don't think this is actually workable, because I think the state-run plans require an SSN/TIN for each beneficiary. (You already can establish an account with yourself as the beneficiary and then change the beneficiary to your child once its born, w/out recognition of gain, so this is just for the purpose of pushing anti-choice rhetoric.)
posted by melissasaurus at 11:26 AM on November 2, 2017 [16 favorites]

Penny Nance, president and CEO of the conservative Christian nonprofit Concerned Women for America, reposted her "Fox & Friends" critique of the popular film on Wednesday as groups opposed to her nomination rallied against her.

For the record, I liked Frozen but ... the point is we want to raise sons to be heroes willing to protect women," Nance posted on Twitter, along with the clip of the 2015 segment when she said movies like Frozen "villainize" masculinity and depict men as "superfluous."

"We don't have to empower women at the cost of tearing down men," Nance said. "Men are essential in our society."

EVERYDAY IS SCREAMING INTO THE UNMOVED HEAVENS DAY.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:28 AM on November 2, 2017 [29 favorites]

melissasaurus:
-eliminates dependent care FSAs

Does this mean that you can have an FSA for yourself but not your kids?
posted by mcduff at 11:31 AM on November 2, 2017

MORE ON THE PURE DELIGHT OF PENNY YOUNG NANCE, FEMINIST HERO.

CONTENT WARNING: RE SEXUAL ASSAULT AND IT IS NOT, AT ALL, A 'SENSITIVE RESPONSE'.
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:32 AM on November 2, 2017

Dependent care FSA’s pay for child care for your kids. Health FSA’s pay for health care (for you and your family).
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:33 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

... I think that means the child care FSA, which was capped at $5000/household. Not chump change when daycare is 20k/year, but another middle-class saving vehicle eliminated.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 11:33 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Dependent care FSAs let you pay for child care pre-tax.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 11:34 AM on November 2, 2017 [3 favorites]

COME ON IN IT WON'T HURT A BIT

:-( BUT IT WILL
posted by A Terrible Llama at 11:34 AM on November 2, 2017 [17 favorites]

... I think that means the child care FSA, which was capped at $5000/household. Not chump change when daycare is 20k/year, but another middle-class saving vehicle eliminated.

No longer content to fuck over the working class, but the middle class too, it's today's Republican party!
posted by Existential Dread at 11:35 AM on November 2, 2017

Dependent care FSA’s pay for child care for your kids. Health FSA’s pay for health care (for you and your family).
posted by Huffy Puffy Add tag at 13:33 on November 2 [+] [!]

... I think that means the child care FSA, which was capped at $5000/household. Not chump change when daycare is 20k/year, but another middle-class saving vehicle eliminated.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr Add tag at 13:33 on November 2 [+] [!]

Dependent care FSAs let you pay for child care pre-tax.
posted by Jpfed Add tag at 13:34 on November 2 [+] [!] Need to fix a typo? Edit

Welp, our job here is done (brushes hands with satisfaction).
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 11:36 AM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

> Voters are used to voting for the lesser of two evils. Being honest with them is certainly more ethical. It also prevents them from being outraged down the road if the candidate isn't what was promised.

Telling people 'our candidate thinks poor people like you are subhuman and deserve to die' doesn't exactly inspire people to get out and vote. Adding 'well, at least our candidate doesn't suck as much as the Republican on gay rights and immigration, and at least they're not overtly racist like the Republican is' helps some, but doesn't help all that much.

Unfortunately, that's the position we're in with a lot Democratic candidates, if we're honest about what they stand for. We have primaries for a reason; we need to nominate better candidates.
posted by nangar at 11:40 AM on November 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Another thing on the "unborn child" beneficiary -- currently, contributions to a 529 with a beneficiary other than yourself are considered present interest gifts for gift tax purposes (meaning no need to file a gift tax return if you contribute less than ~$13k per year per beneficiary). The $13K annual gift exclusion does not apply to gifts deemed to be gifts of future interests, including gifts to unborn children. Relevant article from 1995 on gift tax and unborn children.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:42 AM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

COME ON IN IT WON'T HURT A BIT

citation needed
posted by Hairy Lobster at 11:52 AM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

The Dismal Failure of Jewish Groups to Confront Trump: A new generation of activists, disappointed by the mainstream Jewish response to bigotry, has come to the fore.

Fuck that noise. Stop blaming the fucking victims and targets of white supremacy and antisemitism for not opposing it to your fucking liking. Stop telling us we're supporting white supremacy because we're not shouting loudly enough and putting ourselves in harm's way.

Plenty of Jewish groups are being vocal about neo nazis. I'm a member of two of them. Plenty of us Jews are joining in protests. I've joined protests at Trump Tower multiple times since November. Plenty of rabbis are getting arrested for protesting Trump's racist policies and attempts to ban Muslims. Plenty of us are supporting candidates who aren't praising goddamned neo nazis as "good people."

Give me a fucking break with this shit. You want to complain about groups that are enabling white supremacists? TARGET THE FUCKING WHITE SUPREMACISTS.
posted by zarq at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2017 [54 favorites]

How is this really different from right now? You can change the 529 plan beneficiary at any time. I started a 529 plan in my own name when my wife got pregnant, for instance, but it's for my daughter.

Does your long form birth certificate say Homo Sapien?
posted by srboisvert at 12:12 PM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

GOP "tax" bill repeals the Johnson Amendment preventing political campaigning by churches.

This is really just recognizing the current state. Thanks the structure of the FEC all sorts of partisan cheating has been going on for a long time and the deliberately deadlocked commission meant both sides get away with it. The advantage only accrued to the less scrupled.
posted by srboisvert at 12:15 PM on November 2, 2017

I'm not a good enough actor to feign enthusiasm. My best chance at convincing anyone of the importance of voting for whatever bland centrist the Democrats have served up is to honestly describe the stakes as I see them.

Yeah, the postcards I sent in support of Northam didn't even mention his positions or say he was good, I just said to vote for him and then talked about the national importance of the election and of its meaning as the start of a Dem wave. Feigning enthusiasm about the particular candidate seems like a bad approach to me; even if you get them elected, all you're doing is encouraging alienation down the road when the "great candidate!" turns out to be mediocre. If you're calling or texting or writing postcards you're obviously enthusiastic about getting them elected, just talk about those bigger picture things if the candidate sucks.
posted by contraption at 12:19 PM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

-> -> -> -> New Post <- <- <- <-
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:19 PM on November 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

I'm sorry I said "fuck" so much. It's just infuriating. Even beyond the victim blaming, punching down garbage, several organizations in that article are highlighted as if they represent mainstream American Judaism. They don't. Jews voted for Clinton in larger numbers than any other religious group. We're not all Orthodox Republicans, for heaven's sake. We're by and large a very socially liberal group. Organizations that are more in line with mainstream Jewish thought on various issues such as J-Street are not even mentioned in the article! And those orgs have vocally opposed Trump regarding cancelling DACA and many, many other issues. Ignoring their efforts is inexcusable. A simple Google search turns up dozens of articles talking about the ADL and other organizations condemning Trump and neo-Nazis. They're not hard to find.

Most American Jews are gonna take encroaching fascism pretty darn seriously for obvious reasons.
posted by zarq at 12:34 PM on November 2, 2017 [28 favorites]

🍪🍪
get yer own damn milk, i'm out

🥛🥛🥛🥛
posted by numaner at 1:52 PM on November 2, 2017

Have fun storming the new thread!
posted by petebest at 2:03 PM on November 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

eliminates the deduction for teachers who buy supplies out of pocket (currently capped at $250)

Well fuck you too, then.
posted by Barack Spinoza at 2:19 PM on November 2, 2017 [12 favorites]

Your gruel is not yet thin enough!
posted by rhizome at 2:40 PM on November 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

So will all the 2-5% hybrid Homo Sapiens / Neanderthals also be recognized as people in this bill, or will that need to get argued in court?
posted by Meatbomb at 4:17 PM on November 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

For some reason I felt like I had to get to the bottom of the thread, I never have made it before in one of these politics ones but I did this time. And I learned so much, and I feel so incredibly sad for humans. Thank you all for being here. I'm not sure I can do it again, but thank you to all who are fighting the good fight. We are doomed, but thank you.
posted by eggkeeper at 6:14 PM on November 3, 2017 [4 favorites]

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