Misogyny is collaborative
January 17, 2018 9:25 AM Subscribe
"If men can swallow the confronting reality that their silence is foundational to both sexism and sexual violence, then they get to embrace the inverse reality—that their vocal dissent could begin to destabilise these evils at their base."
[CW: sexual assault]
Can someone who knows Matt Damon please send this to him?
posted by ohyouknow at 10:37 AM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ohyouknow at 10:37 AM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is so good:
At this point, we must resist the temptation to view misogyny as a spectrum. This is the wrong way to measure harm; it gives way to a complacency that says, ‘it’s just a joke, it’s not like I actually touched her’. Misogyny isn’t a sliding scale of harm where jokes are situated at the low end and rape at the other. Rather, it functions like a human pyramid, where minor acts support the major by providing, at best, a foundation of blithe indifference, and at worst an atmosphere of amusement at the denigration of women.posted by Lexica at 10:38 AM on January 17, 2018 [38 favorites]
Excellent article! Thank you for posting it. I read this and it really made me think about how everyone who is raised with toxic notions of masculinity have allowed/justified truly despicable behavior against women/girls - but also other men/boys. I think some of the reason so many men don't speak up is because they know if they do they will be on the receiving end of a lot of aggression. Toxic masculinity is toxic to everyone, not just females. Let us never forget:
Men who abuse their power over women (or other vulnerable parties) exist across every industry, every ethnicity, every age, every sexuality, every nationality, every socioeconomic class and every religion. There is no common thread besides ‘masculinity’ and our shared understanding of what this constitutes.
.
posted by pjsky at 11:30 AM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Men who abuse their power over women (or other vulnerable parties) exist across every industry, every ethnicity, every age, every sexuality, every nationality, every socioeconomic class and every religion. There is no common thread besides ‘masculinity’ and our shared understanding of what this constitutes.
.
posted by pjsky at 11:30 AM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
It's interesting, because so many men have been plaintively asking "what can I do to help?", and the assumption is that they ask from a position of neutrality, of already being in a position of doing no harm, and wanting to move forward into offering aid.
But as this author points out, the chances of being neutral are essentially zero. Coasting along and accepting the status quo is offering support to the abusers at the top. “Not knowing much about the matter at hand” is, in and of itself, a position of privilege and of power. Neutrality is an illusion.
We talk a lot about how women are afraid of men. I don't think we talk enough about how frightened men must be of other men, to spend their lives in decades of casual sadism (sexual and otherwise) just to win their approbation, or, for some, an escape from their collective disdain.
When men ask why women don't just say "no" to unwanted sexual advances, I sometimes like to ask in turn-- do you know anyone, at school or at work or in your friend group, who makes rape jokes, or talks about women as if their worth depends on their looks, or calls women sluts, or says all his exes are crazy? If so, have you ever said "no" to him? Why not? It's difficult, right? It feels scary to reprimand someone you know, when it might ruin your relationship forever? You don't know how other people will react? You might get a reputation? He might have power over you in certain settings? But you just made it sound like saying "no" is easy. Why don't you say no to him? The chances of you ending up killed for it are fairly low. Why don't you say no? Why did you freeze? Why didn't you just give him a sign that you didn't like what he was saying? Why didn't you just say no?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:35 AM on January 17, 2018 [68 favorites]
But as this author points out, the chances of being neutral are essentially zero. Coasting along and accepting the status quo is offering support to the abusers at the top. “Not knowing much about the matter at hand” is, in and of itself, a position of privilege and of power. Neutrality is an illusion.
No man is an island, and no man offends in isolation. In Ways of Seeing, John Berger wrote that men look at women, and women watch themselves being looked at. This is true, but I have often noticed a third party, an equally intimidating presence with a different gaze: men who watch other men as they watch, harass, or mistreat women. This occurs at every tier, and it can be both passive and active. It’s the bystander who averts his eyes as a stranger starts touching you on the train, or the guy who jeers across the bar as his mate harasses you. It’s the guys who will warn you about the ‘rapey guy’ in your social community, but still invite him to things.I also think that the emphasis on men who do this to impress other men is important. In the Aziz Ansari discussion, a lot of people have asked "how could he enjoy her fear? How could anyone?" But this piece answers that very easily--for many of these men, the sexual act is not the completion or the consummation such a man craves (or at least, not the primary one). It is telling the story later. It is seeing the respect in his friend's eyes when he "confesses" to how "messed up" it was and "no one would believe it" and "you should have seen her face". It is beating the next level on the video game to impress your friend who is stuck at level one. It is "gotta catch em all", and it is a dare from someone else, and it is all fun and games because women aren't people, and their hurts are illusory, but your bro's awed fistbump is the realest measure of worth possible.
We talk a lot about how women are afraid of men. I don't think we talk enough about how frightened men must be of other men, to spend their lives in decades of casual sadism (sexual and otherwise) just to win their approbation, or, for some, an escape from their collective disdain.
When men ask why women don't just say "no" to unwanted sexual advances, I sometimes like to ask in turn-- do you know anyone, at school or at work or in your friend group, who makes rape jokes, or talks about women as if their worth depends on their looks, or calls women sluts, or says all his exes are crazy? If so, have you ever said "no" to him? Why not? It's difficult, right? It feels scary to reprimand someone you know, when it might ruin your relationship forever? You don't know how other people will react? You might get a reputation? He might have power over you in certain settings? But you just made it sound like saying "no" is easy. Why don't you say no to him? The chances of you ending up killed for it are fairly low. Why don't you say no? Why did you freeze? Why didn't you just give him a sign that you didn't like what he was saying? Why didn't you just say no?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:35 AM on January 17, 2018 [68 favorites]
a fiendish thingy, I think you are WAY off base on the way men like Ansari perceive and relate their sexual encounters. Men do not brag about instilling fear in women.
posted by mellow seas at 11:38 AM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mellow seas at 11:38 AM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Not-edited to add, I think your overall point is very accurate. Nobody* wants women to be uncomfortable, but many or most men will overlook discomfort in search of their “conquest”.
posted by mellow seas at 11:40 AM on January 17, 2018
posted by mellow seas at 11:40 AM on January 17, 2018
Tell your dude friends that you respect women.
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist. I realize it's terrible to start dialogue with other people automatically mistrusting them, but I guess I have to figure out how to navigate this.
posted by FJT at 11:40 AM on January 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist. I realize it's terrible to start dialogue with other people automatically mistrusting them, but I guess I have to figure out how to navigate this.
posted by FJT at 11:40 AM on January 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
To claim that misogyny is a pyramid built upon a silent majority might seem like a harsh indictment, but it is also an empowering one. If men can swallow the confronting reality that their silence is foundational to both sexism and sexual violence, then they get to embrace the inverse reality—that their vocal dissent could begin to destabilise these evils at their base. This counts most of all when there are no women around—I have a feeling the most sexist things ever said about me occurred when I wasn’t in earshot, or even in the room. It counts in the all-male text chain. It counts in the locker-room. It counts when there are no women there to pat you on the back. It counts when there’s nothing in it for you.Goddamn. Emphasis mine.
Toxic masculinity thrives by coding empathy as a fun killer and emotion as weakness, and has engineered hearty consequences for those who display these qualities, ranging from eye rolls and ostracism all the way to physical violence. This starts early, when boys are shamed for crying, or for liking anything ‘feminine’—when sensitivity is discouraged. The result is that empathy is suppressed, and this allows the objectification of others (women in particular) to thrive. But what if all the strength and resilience we foster in boys from a young age were instead employed here—what if we encouraged boys to be empathetic, and raised them to be strong enough to absorb the consequences, and to use their social privilege in service of others? Perhaps this is a good way for men to channel that confusing (white) male guilt; to divert their efforts away from seeking absolution for their identity, and instead orientate themselves toward building a world where that identity is no longer the trump card.
Men: What is keeping you from doing this? Women have asked until our throats are raw and bloody, and still nothing seems to change. We cannot fix this alone. We cannot alone point out how you are being harmed by this toxic system, not just us: we cannot dismantle this without your buy-in.
Why aren't you speaking to each other? Is it fear? Is it inertia? Is it loss of the benefits you receive from the system?
Why don't men talk to each other about this? And for the love of little green apples, what on earth would motivate you to start?
posted by sciatrix at 11:45 AM on January 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
For men's criticism of Harvey Weinstein to be sincere and productive, they need to reject the urge to vilify him while positioning themselves as the progressive alternative. Men must instead become relentlessly self-reflexive, and recognise the way that the scale of abuse matches the scale of power. They must reflect on the power they hold, and identify the areas in which they could, even accidentally, abuse that power. This includes witnessing misogyny or sexism but not objecting to or correcting it, because the option to disengage belongs only to the powerful.OH YEAH. Best way to scratch a "progressive" man and reveal the nascent reactionary beneath is to ask him to consider the times he was part of the problem, or instances in which misogyny was being manifested and he said nothing because it was easier. They get so upset! "No, not me! I would never! I don't even know anyone who says stuff like that, I'm nothing like those gross, manipulative monsters!"
Better yet, tell them you don't think men can be feminist*. They'll get downright indignant, because they're way more comfortable positioning themselves as the superior alternative - Not Like Those Other Guys - than they are contemplating what it is about living in a male supremacist society that might make a woman feel that way. So the revision from a "spectrum" of misogyny to a pyramid, instead, with "not like those other guys" guys forming the foundation - having that reality reflected so clearly is deeply satisfying.
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist.
*I don't think men can be feminist.
posted by obstinate harpy at 11:48 AM on January 17, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist.
Experience has made me the same but I think there's a difference if they are declaring it and following it up with other words and actions in encounters with other men.
posted by roolya_boolya at 11:53 AM on January 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
Experience has made me the same but I think there's a difference if they are declaring it and following it up with other words and actions in encounters with other men.
posted by roolya_boolya at 11:53 AM on January 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
a fiendish thingy, I think you are WAY off base on the way men like Ansari perceive and relate their sexual encounters. Men do not brag about instilling fear in women.
I mentioned the discussion happening in the Ansari thread to continue a topic that cropped up there, but I was not making any suggestions about Ansari himself. I am referencing a larger cultural discussion.
Moreover, my point was not that most men's primary goal is to inspire fear. You are misreading me. My point is that the events of the sexual encounter with a woman are secondary to the primary goal, which is telling a male friend "I got laid". People often assume that men seek out sex with women in order to impress women, or to connect with women. I am agreeing with the author of this piece when I say that the evidence does not support either of those assertions.
(That said, there are many men who ABSOLUTELY brag about instilling fear in women. You are lucky that you have never been privy to this social dynamic, but it is 100% real and depressingly common. Catcalling is about humiliating and frightening women. You think the thousands of women being regularly doxxed and swatted and sent death threats and sent rape threats and revenge porned aren't on the receiving end of that behavior because men like frightening women? Come on.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:53 AM on January 17, 2018 [42 favorites]
I mentioned the discussion happening in the Ansari thread to continue a topic that cropped up there, but I was not making any suggestions about Ansari himself. I am referencing a larger cultural discussion.
Moreover, my point was not that most men's primary goal is to inspire fear. You are misreading me. My point is that the events of the sexual encounter with a woman are secondary to the primary goal, which is telling a male friend "I got laid". People often assume that men seek out sex with women in order to impress women, or to connect with women. I am agreeing with the author of this piece when I say that the evidence does not support either of those assertions.
(That said, there are many men who ABSOLUTELY brag about instilling fear in women. You are lucky that you have never been privy to this social dynamic, but it is 100% real and depressingly common. Catcalling is about humiliating and frightening women. You think the thousands of women being regularly doxxed and swatted and sent death threats and sent rape threats and revenge porned aren't on the receiving end of that behavior because men like frightening women? Come on.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:53 AM on January 17, 2018 [42 favorites]
*I don't think men can be feminist.
I completely agree with this, which is partly why I don't say I'm a feminist.
posted by FJT at 11:56 AM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I completely agree with this, which is partly why I don't say I'm a feminist.
posted by FJT at 11:56 AM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
we have a similar concept in anti-racist work. systems of oppression aren't placed on a dichotomy of good to evil since society and culture are not linear, horizontal axes of ideology
normative culture, and thus may different forms of oppression, is made up of really complex, intertwined structures of institution, normalization, and individual choices that you have to actively and intentionally resist being complicit in. to FJT's point, I think loudly declaring your advocacy for something is only one small piece of a good praxis, a good practice of anti-oppression - the larger pictures is understanding that misogyny and white supremacy and ableism and cisheteronomrativity and so on are things that are so pervasive that every single one of your thoughtless choices to say something, do something, left unintentional and uninterrogated, can be an act of complicity that supports that form of oppression. it's not just not speaking up when your queer friend is insulted, it's also you you not volunteering/organizing for queer causes or reminding them that they're queer and non-normative - it's you performing cisheteronomrativity and talking about how difficult it is to be you or it's you not being conscious of how they are treated in public, noting all the micro-aggressions and intentionally pushing against them. it's all that and a million other things that you should be conscious in your efforts to seek out and learn out and to integrate into you're daily practice
good praxis is a minute-to-minute thing, it's consciously engaging with all the things you do, say, and think, and placing it within a framework of power and oppression. it's not opportunistic or something you see obvious benefits from like Aziz Ansari's performative feminism. but it is good ethics and you have to learn to be satisfied that that's all the reward you'll ever get sometimes
posted by runt at 11:58 AM on January 17, 2018 [7 favorites]
normative culture, and thus may different forms of oppression, is made up of really complex, intertwined structures of institution, normalization, and individual choices that you have to actively and intentionally resist being complicit in. to FJT's point, I think loudly declaring your advocacy for something is only one small piece of a good praxis, a good practice of anti-oppression - the larger pictures is understanding that misogyny and white supremacy and ableism and cisheteronomrativity and so on are things that are so pervasive that every single one of your thoughtless choices to say something, do something, left unintentional and uninterrogated, can be an act of complicity that supports that form of oppression. it's not just not speaking up when your queer friend is insulted, it's also you you not volunteering/organizing for queer causes or reminding them that they're queer and non-normative - it's you performing cisheteronomrativity and talking about how difficult it is to be you or it's you not being conscious of how they are treated in public, noting all the micro-aggressions and intentionally pushing against them. it's all that and a million other things that you should be conscious in your efforts to seek out and learn out and to integrate into you're daily practice
good praxis is a minute-to-minute thing, it's consciously engaging with all the things you do, say, and think, and placing it within a framework of power and oppression. it's not opportunistic or something you see obvious benefits from like Aziz Ansari's performative feminism. but it is good ethics and you have to learn to be satisfied that that's all the reward you'll ever get sometimes
posted by runt at 11:58 AM on January 17, 2018 [7 favorites]
Tell your dude friends that you respect women.
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist. I realize it's terrible to start dialogue with other people automatically mistrusting them, but I guess I have to figure out how to navigate this.
posted by FJT at 2:40 PM on January 17 [1 favorite +] [!]
It seems to me that the primary audience for woke misogynists is women, and the secondary audience is men. My impression is that it gets potential victims to let the guard down, and then discredits those same victims. ‘Surely not him, he’s always said he hates rape, and besides, what he did wasn’t technically rape.’
I didn’t provide and pick and choose list. This is the beginning of what I want men to do. And I don’t want men to tell women about their feminism. I want men to tell each other. And I want them to walk the walk too. The hardest part of this is cutting out of your life dudes who aren’t feminist. If you provide safe harbor for these guys, you are supporting the ways they abuse us. Cut it out. Stop giving cover by saying ‘he’s just socially awkward, he’s never actually hurt anyone.’ Yes. He will. He already is. Because that disrespect, those rape jokes, those too close sidewalk brushes? That shit hurts.
Sure men. Absolutely don’t believe men who only say they’re feminist without the actions to back it up. Definitely don’t believe men who say they’re feminist and then get shitty when nobody gives them a cookie. Don’t believe men who claim feminism but who women describe as creepy or who women confide to you are abusive. But if you are a feminist, you have to both act like f and own it. You have to do what it takes to make men who are not feminists uncomfortable.
posted by bilabial at 11:59 AM on January 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist. I realize it's terrible to start dialogue with other people automatically mistrusting them, but I guess I have to figure out how to navigate this.
posted by FJT at 2:40 PM on January 17 [1 favorite +] [!]
It seems to me that the primary audience for woke misogynists is women, and the secondary audience is men. My impression is that it gets potential victims to let the guard down, and then discredits those same victims. ‘Surely not him, he’s always said he hates rape, and besides, what he did wasn’t technically rape.’
I didn’t provide and pick and choose list. This is the beginning of what I want men to do. And I don’t want men to tell women about their feminism. I want men to tell each other. And I want them to walk the walk too. The hardest part of this is cutting out of your life dudes who aren’t feminist. If you provide safe harbor for these guys, you are supporting the ways they abuse us. Cut it out. Stop giving cover by saying ‘he’s just socially awkward, he’s never actually hurt anyone.’ Yes. He will. He already is. Because that disrespect, those rape jokes, those too close sidewalk brushes? That shit hurts.
Sure men. Absolutely don’t believe men who only say they’re feminist without the actions to back it up. Definitely don’t believe men who say they’re feminist and then get shitty when nobody gives them a cookie. Don’t believe men who claim feminism but who women describe as creepy or who women confide to you are abusive. But if you are a feminist, you have to both act like f and own it. You have to do what it takes to make men who are not feminists uncomfortable.
posted by bilabial at 11:59 AM on January 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
If we can learn to see men as distinct from established understandings of masculinity in the way we have done with women and femininity, then hopefully we can begin to construct a version of masculinity that is more plural, more expansive, and less harmful to everyone.
or we could just burn masculinity to the ground and start over? I don't know, maybe it's just my own weird evolving personal gender feelings, but I have never felt the cultural pull of "masculinity" tug at me in a way that was positive, or couldn't just as easily be framed as the call of being a decent, non-gender-specific human. I understand that may just be my own personal frustration about the large/small ways that being assigned the "masculine" box at birth has estranged me from my genuine self over the years, though.
posted by Gymnopedist at 12:07 PM on January 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
or we could just burn masculinity to the ground and start over? I don't know, maybe it's just my own weird evolving personal gender feelings, but I have never felt the cultural pull of "masculinity" tug at me in a way that was positive, or couldn't just as easily be framed as the call of being a decent, non-gender-specific human. I understand that may just be my own personal frustration about the large/small ways that being assigned the "masculine" box at birth has estranged me from my genuine self over the years, though.
posted by Gymnopedist at 12:07 PM on January 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist.
I agree. But I think the sentiment is good, and I'd edit it to: Show your dude friends that you respect women.
Treat women as equal human beings in their presence. Challenge them when they aren't treating women as equal human beings. Lend your support to feminist causes. You don't have to say the words "I'm a feminist"* in order to do that.
* I do believe that men can be feminists, so perhaps I have a different reaction, but I'd rather hear "I'm a feminist" than "I'm not a feminist," because in my experience the latter is usually followed "I'm an egalitarian" and an argument that feminism is bullshit. But the label's not as important as the rest of what you say or do, anyway...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:10 PM on January 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
I agree. But I think the sentiment is good, and I'd edit it to: Show your dude friends that you respect women.
Treat women as equal human beings in their presence. Challenge them when they aren't treating women as equal human beings. Lend your support to feminist causes. You don't have to say the words "I'm a feminist"* in order to do that.
* I do believe that men can be feminists, so perhaps I have a different reaction, but I'd rather hear "I'm a feminist" than "I'm not a feminist," because in my experience the latter is usually followed "I'm an egalitarian" and an argument that feminism is bullshit. But the label's not as important as the rest of what you say or do, anyway...
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 12:10 PM on January 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
I support this idea, but I don't think it will be enough. Legislation was required before public school districts would take action against gender-related and sexual abuse. Training staff is critical. As long as the 5th grade science teacher continues to mock the boys in his class with long hair, we will forever be trying to un-do the damage.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:21 PM on January 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 12:21 PM on January 17, 2018 [5 favorites]
My point is that the events of the sexual encounter with a woman are secondary to the primary goal, which is telling a male friend "I got laid".
This does not ring true to me. In my experience most men (including myself) are pretty uncomfortable being asked about or talking about their sex lives. They may lie when asked in a group of men, so they aren't trashed by their peers. But from experience, most men think bragging about their sex lives is shitty, ugly, frat boy behavior. I also believe most of us think catcalling and similar performative behaviours against women are utterly repulsive.
posted by zarq at 12:22 PM on January 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
This does not ring true to me. In my experience most men (including myself) are pretty uncomfortable being asked about or talking about their sex lives. They may lie when asked in a group of men, so they aren't trashed by their peers. But from experience, most men think bragging about their sex lives is shitty, ugly, frat boy behavior. I also believe most of us think catcalling and similar performative behaviours against women are utterly repulsive.
posted by zarq at 12:22 PM on January 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
With all the high profile cases of woke misogynists, I'm starting to be suspicious of a lot of men who enthusiastically declare they are feminist.
Yeah, I'm trying to just do the work as much as possible. I realize that my visible feminism is probably suspicious to some women, and that has to be okay, because it's not their fault, but the fault of Louis CKs and the like.
Nobody has to trust me. The work is worth doing anyway.
posted by maxsparber at 12:23 PM on January 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I'm trying to just do the work as much as possible. I realize that my visible feminism is probably suspicious to some women, and that has to be okay, because it's not their fault, but the fault of Louis CKs and the like.
Nobody has to trust me. The work is worth doing anyway.
posted by maxsparber at 12:23 PM on January 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
I stand by it. And I think speech is really important. Find a way to make this even if you don’t want to use the word feminist. Say ‘I think women should be treated equally to men.’ And back it up.
I think the list of things to do includes ‘showing’ and I think the extra step of ‘telling’ is necessary and not optional.
For more examples of showing that I’ve provided in previous threads.
Hire women
Hire women who don’t wear makeup
Hire women who do wear makeup
Pay women a fair wage
Push back against the shifting ‘experience vs education’ trap that female applicants fall into (of the male applicant has more of one, that will be the reason pointed to for hiring him. It’s not usually a conscious bias. Good luck!)
Don’t walk four abreast on a sidewalk
Get out of the way on sidewalks
Give up your fucking seat on transit. Women’s shoes are terrifically uncomfortable and you literally cannot tell who is two months pregnant and women are more likely to have shitty ‘on your feet’ jobs that require business casual clothes. Sure if you have a hernia, keep your seat. By I know I’m not getting into subway cars that miraculously have 50 herniated disks. The script for this is ‘would you like to sit?’ Not do you need to sit. Not here take my seat. Get up and ask, would you like to sit. Worst case scenario, they don’t want to and someone else will. Either way, you’ve done someone a kindness.
Don’t push women to accept ‘free’ drinks in bars
Don’t tolerate complaints or even casual comments about the mythical ‘friendzone.’ Loudly support real friendship for everyone.
Actions speak louder than words. But words also speak. Give these words weight and take them out of the mouths of men who aren’t using them correctly.
posted by bilabial at 12:25 PM on January 17, 2018 [24 favorites]
I think the list of things to do includes ‘showing’ and I think the extra step of ‘telling’ is necessary and not optional.
For more examples of showing that I’ve provided in previous threads.
Hire women
Hire women who don’t wear makeup
Hire women who do wear makeup
Pay women a fair wage
Push back against the shifting ‘experience vs education’ trap that female applicants fall into (of the male applicant has more of one, that will be the reason pointed to for hiring him. It’s not usually a conscious bias. Good luck!)
Don’t walk four abreast on a sidewalk
Get out of the way on sidewalks
Give up your fucking seat on transit. Women’s shoes are terrifically uncomfortable and you literally cannot tell who is two months pregnant and women are more likely to have shitty ‘on your feet’ jobs that require business casual clothes. Sure if you have a hernia, keep your seat. By I know I’m not getting into subway cars that miraculously have 50 herniated disks. The script for this is ‘would you like to sit?’ Not do you need to sit. Not here take my seat. Get up and ask, would you like to sit. Worst case scenario, they don’t want to and someone else will. Either way, you’ve done someone a kindness.
Don’t push women to accept ‘free’ drinks in bars
Don’t tolerate complaints or even casual comments about the mythical ‘friendzone.’ Loudly support real friendship for everyone.
Actions speak louder than words. But words also speak. Give these words weight and take them out of the mouths of men who aren’t using them correctly.
posted by bilabial at 12:25 PM on January 17, 2018 [24 favorites]
But from experience, most men think bragging about their sex lives is shitty, ugly, frat boy behavior.
I mean, that's my experience too, but mostly because ugly frat boy behavior actively terrifies me and I have eliminated those people from my life.
I was in frat, however, and when I was there ugly frat boy behavior was quite common, including sexual boasting. I'm not in touch with those dudes anymore, but I would be surprised if any but a few have grown out of it.
posted by maxsparber at 12:25 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
I mean, that's my experience too, but mostly because ugly frat boy behavior actively terrifies me and I have eliminated those people from my life.
I was in frat, however, and when I was there ugly frat boy behavior was quite common, including sexual boasting. I'm not in touch with those dudes anymore, but I would be surprised if any but a few have grown out of it.
posted by maxsparber at 12:25 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
They may lie when asked in a group of men, so they aren't trashed by their peers.
There is no difference between this and actually bragging about your sexual conquests. And every man who doesn't say this is gross while it's happening is complicit in rape culture.
posted by agregoli at 12:26 PM on January 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
There is no difference between this and actually bragging about your sexual conquests. And every man who doesn't say this is gross while it's happening is complicit in rape culture.
posted by agregoli at 12:26 PM on January 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
The point is, if you're not willing to be uncomfortable with peers who might trash you for respecting women, you are ok with allowing women to continue to be uncomfortable and much, much worse.
posted by agregoli at 12:29 PM on January 17, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 12:29 PM on January 17, 2018 [11 favorites]
But from experience, most men think bragging about their sex lives is shitty, ugly, frat boy behavior. I also believe most of us think catcalling and similar performative behaviours against women are utterly repulsive.
Seems amazing that all these terrible behaviors are commonplace, everyday experiences for every woman I've ever met if "most men" are as like you as you seem to think.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:34 PM on January 17, 2018 [21 favorites]
Seems amazing that all these terrible behaviors are commonplace, everyday experiences for every woman I've ever met if "most men" are as like you as you seem to think.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:34 PM on January 17, 2018 [21 favorites]
Also, I can't believe we are having a #notallmen derail in a thread about an article with a central thesis of "yes all men, including men who turn every discussion of misogyny into a space to say "well it can't really be that bad, me and my friends are fine!!!", are complicit at some level in the system of patriarchy that enables its worst abuses"
Turning the discussion into a cul-de-sac of 'well it isn't THAT bad' is not disrupting the human pyramid. That is bracing yourself to keep it steady. That is a behavior that enables harm.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:41 PM on January 17, 2018 [36 favorites]
Turning the discussion into a cul-de-sac of 'well it isn't THAT bad' is not disrupting the human pyramid. That is bracing yourself to keep it steady. That is a behavior that enables harm.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:41 PM on January 17, 2018 [36 favorites]
Also, I can't believe we are having a #notallmen derail in a thread
That is not what I said. That is not what I am doing. You made a statement. I offered a different opinion based on experience and the fact that I am one of the guys you are purportedly speaking about.
posted by zarq at 12:45 PM on January 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
That is not what I said. That is not what I am doing. You made a statement. I offered a different opinion based on experience and the fact that I am one of the guys you are purportedly speaking about.
posted by zarq at 12:45 PM on January 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
If you are not a man who participates behaviors I am describing, then you are OBVIOUSLY not one of the men I am talking about? My posts are all full of qualifiers to make that clear but apparently there were not enough? I guess no amount is ever enough? The context is men who behave this way??????
Pitman's whole point is that men who minimize or choose not to believe in the severity of these problems are also part of the problem?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:50 PM on January 17, 2018 [29 favorites]
Pitman's whole point is that men who minimize or choose not to believe in the severity of these problems are also part of the problem?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:50 PM on January 17, 2018 [29 favorites]
Pitman's whole point is that men who minimize or choose not to believe in the severity of these problems are also part of the problem?
I think Pitman's essay is fantastic. I wholeheartedly agree with it.
But you're saying something that I do not think is true and that I do not believe is the norm for men: That the primary motivator for them to have sex is to brag about it to other men. That said bragging is more important than any other motivator. This assumption, which sort of conflates catcalling and sex and turns them both into performative acts makes little to no sense to me.
My saying so does not diminish what toxic patriarchy actually is or in any way declare that it doesn't exist. It absolutely does. I completely agree with other commenters here that our concepts of masculinity need to be razed to the ground and rebuilt from the ground up. I wholeheartedly agree that we men need to take matters into our own hands, open our mouths, defend women and teach each other and especially boys how to treat women with respect and dignity, and call anyone out who does otherwise. And stop them. But yes, I disagree with you on that single point. Disagreeing with you about what you think motivates men to have sex doesn't mean I'm trying to derail the thread or making a "not all men" argument. It simply means I think you're wrong about one thing.
posted by zarq at 1:01 PM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think Pitman's essay is fantastic. I wholeheartedly agree with it.
But you're saying something that I do not think is true and that I do not believe is the norm for men: That the primary motivator for them to have sex is to brag about it to other men. That said bragging is more important than any other motivator. This assumption, which sort of conflates catcalling and sex and turns them both into performative acts makes little to no sense to me.
My saying so does not diminish what toxic patriarchy actually is or in any way declare that it doesn't exist. It absolutely does. I completely agree with other commenters here that our concepts of masculinity need to be razed to the ground and rebuilt from the ground up. I wholeheartedly agree that we men need to take matters into our own hands, open our mouths, defend women and teach each other and especially boys how to treat women with respect and dignity, and call anyone out who does otherwise. And stop them. But yes, I disagree with you on that single point. Disagreeing with you about what you think motivates men to have sex doesn't mean I'm trying to derail the thread or making a "not all men" argument. It simply means I think you're wrong about one thing.
posted by zarq at 1:01 PM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sometimes it's okay to think somebody is wrong about a point and let it go.
posted by maxsparber at 1:06 PM on January 17, 2018 [25 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 1:06 PM on January 17, 2018 [25 favorites]
This assumption, which sort of conflates catcalling and sex and turns them both into performative acts makes little to no sense to me.
The fact that you do not know men like this, and that you are not a man like this, does not mean men like this do not exist. I didn't say that the majority of men are like this, but that many are, and that the men at the top of this metaphorical pyramid are the most likely to hold this worldview.
Have you missed every thread about MRAs? Gamergate? Every 1980s T&A movie where boys want to see naked ladies for the sake of impressing their buddies?
I am not doubting that these men want sex itself. I am saying that their driving impulse is social approbation and status amongst other men, and that the sex is secondary, and that women being people doesn't actually occur to them, and that they find spending time with women and talking to women to be tedious. Many of these men are on record as saying the same thing. These are not extraordinary claims.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:10 PM on January 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
The fact that you do not know men like this, and that you are not a man like this, does not mean men like this do not exist. I didn't say that the majority of men are like this, but that many are, and that the men at the top of this metaphorical pyramid are the most likely to hold this worldview.
Have you missed every thread about MRAs? Gamergate? Every 1980s T&A movie where boys want to see naked ladies for the sake of impressing their buddies?
I am not doubting that these men want sex itself. I am saying that their driving impulse is social approbation and status amongst other men, and that the sex is secondary, and that women being people doesn't actually occur to them, and that they find spending time with women and talking to women to be tedious. Many of these men are on record as saying the same thing. These are not extraordinary claims.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:10 PM on January 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
I do not believe is the norm for men: That the primary motivator for them to have sex is to brag about it to other men.
On the one hand, I'm pretty sure men want to have sex because sex is awesomely fun for most people.
On the other, it sure looks like men go out of their way to have sex with women who do not want to have sex with them because they're scoring points in some game with other men.
Because there is not, in fact, any shortage of women who like having sex, who are willing to have sex with some pleasant guy they met in a bar or cafe or bookstore or motocross event or whatever. But there's a whole lot of support from other men for the idea that "what really matters" in sex is something other than "do the two of you enjoy it?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:11 PM on January 17, 2018 [13 favorites]
On the one hand, I'm pretty sure men want to have sex because sex is awesomely fun for most people.
On the other, it sure looks like men go out of their way to have sex with women who do not want to have sex with them because they're scoring points in some game with other men.
Because there is not, in fact, any shortage of women who like having sex, who are willing to have sex with some pleasant guy they met in a bar or cafe or bookstore or motocross event or whatever. But there's a whole lot of support from other men for the idea that "what really matters" in sex is something other than "do the two of you enjoy it?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:11 PM on January 17, 2018 [13 favorites]
This counts most of all when there are no women around—I have a feeling the most sexist things ever said about me occurred when I wasn’t in earshot, or even in the room. It counts in the all-male text chain. It counts in the locker-room. It counts when there are no women there to pat you on the back. It counts when there’s nothing in it for you.In my experience, those spaces are violently self-selecting during key periods of identity formation, with "smear the queer" as one of the rules. Maybe Generation Z will be the one to break that rule, I don't know. But part of destabilizing patriarchy is going to require addressing violent homophobia and transphobia.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 1:25 PM on January 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
Can someone who knows Matt Damon please send this to him?
Happily, there are signs that Matt Damon is at least starting to course-correct. He recently apologized for his initial comments about #meToo, and said he's behind the movement - and even better, he went on to say "and I think I'm going to also shut up and get in the back seat and close my mouth for a while".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:30 PM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Happily, there are signs that Matt Damon is at least starting to course-correct. He recently apologized for his initial comments about #meToo, and said he's behind the movement - and even better, he went on to say "and I think I'm going to also shut up and get in the back seat and close my mouth for a while".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:30 PM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
....Um. It's literally just occurred to me that the "can someone send this to Matt Damon" may have been in response to his saying he's going to shut up.
I took his I'm going to shut up for a while" as a "I'll let others tell me what would help them most and then do that" kind of comment as opposed to a "I'm staying out of it" comment, though.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:32 PM on January 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
I took his I'm going to shut up for a while" as a "I'll let others tell me what would help them most and then do that" kind of comment as opposed to a "I'm staying out of it" comment, though.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:32 PM on January 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
I too am wary of men who claim to be feminists. I went on a date with a guy whose dating profile read that he was a feminist. Later, he gave me two black eyes. I did not consent to that. I am * very * skeptical, now.
posted by erattacorrige at 1:40 PM on January 17, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by erattacorrige at 1:40 PM on January 17, 2018 [11 favorites]
In my experience, those spaces are violently self-selecting during key periods of identity formation, with "smear the queer" as one of the rules. Maybe Generation Z will be the one to break that rule, I don't know. But part of destabilizing patriarchy is going to require addressing violent homophobia and transphobia.
I'm going to say this explicitly as a queer woman, because the last time I said this in public without bending over backwards to prove my bona fides I spawned an entire fucking MetaTalk.
Some of the most misogynistic things men have ever said to my face have been cis gay men, speaking to me as a cis queer woman. In most cases they appear to be trying to bond with me over shared queerness, and their circles just happen to mostly contain other cis gay men.
This is not a problem you can solve by curing homophobia. You might be able to solve it by curing the fear of femme men, or by curing transphobia, or allowing more gender expression variation for men. But gayness is not the central issue here, not by a long shot. The central issue here is misogyny, and insofar as homophobia is in play here, it's because the whiff of femininity that might or might not append itself to cultural conceptions of gay men. Hell, even transphobia qua transphobia isn't the central issue here, although I'll absolutely say that transmisogyny is a huge part of the problem. The problem is misogyny, including and maybe especially transmisogyny--but it's misogyny all the way down.
posted by sciatrix at 1:45 PM on January 17, 2018 [48 favorites]
I'm going to say this explicitly as a queer woman, because the last time I said this in public without bending over backwards to prove my bona fides I spawned an entire fucking MetaTalk.
Some of the most misogynistic things men have ever said to my face have been cis gay men, speaking to me as a cis queer woman. In most cases they appear to be trying to bond with me over shared queerness, and their circles just happen to mostly contain other cis gay men.
This is not a problem you can solve by curing homophobia. You might be able to solve it by curing the fear of femme men, or by curing transphobia, or allowing more gender expression variation for men. But gayness is not the central issue here, not by a long shot. The central issue here is misogyny, and insofar as homophobia is in play here, it's because the whiff of femininity that might or might not append itself to cultural conceptions of gay men. Hell, even transphobia qua transphobia isn't the central issue here, although I'll absolutely say that transmisogyny is a huge part of the problem. The problem is misogyny, including and maybe especially transmisogyny--but it's misogyny all the way down.
posted by sciatrix at 1:45 PM on January 17, 2018 [48 favorites]
Seems amazing that all these terrible behaviors are commonplace, everyday experiences for every woman I've ever met if "most men" are as like you as you seem to think.
A small proportion of shitheads are entirely capable of ruining the lives of every woman who’s paths they cross, whilst the majority of men in their lives remain oblivious. Male abusers are just as good at pushing boundaries amongst their male friends in order to find out who they can share their ideals with as they are at pushing the boundaries of their victims.
A personal example: I have witnessed catcalling /once/ in my entire life & it was so shocked / surprised when it happened right in front of me that I didn’t have the wit to challenge it at the time & I had cycled past before the reality of it had sunk in. I believe absolutely that there are plenty of women for whom this is their daily norm, but I only know that because they told me - without their personal testimony (and that of women elsewhere, including here on Metafilter) I would have had no idea & might have thought that that one time was some kind of weird aberration.
posted by pharm at 1:54 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
A small proportion of shitheads are entirely capable of ruining the lives of every woman who’s paths they cross, whilst the majority of men in their lives remain oblivious. Male abusers are just as good at pushing boundaries amongst their male friends in order to find out who they can share their ideals with as they are at pushing the boundaries of their victims.
A personal example: I have witnessed catcalling /once/ in my entire life & it was so shocked / surprised when it happened right in front of me that I didn’t have the wit to challenge it at the time & I had cycled past before the reality of it had sunk in. I believe absolutely that there are plenty of women for whom this is their daily norm, but I only know that because they told me - without their personal testimony (and that of women elsewhere, including here on Metafilter) I would have had no idea & might have thought that that one time was some kind of weird aberration.
posted by pharm at 1:54 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
ErisLordFreedom: On the other, it sure looks like men go out of their way to have sex with women who do not want to have sex with them because they're scoring points in some game with other men.
We live in a culture where men and boys are encouraged by their peers, elders and pretty much every aspect of our society to incessantly pressure women in every way, offer no respect to their wishes, ignore their humanity and never take "no" as an answer. It's a part of every damned social strata we have. Bill Clinton last year at the Democratic convention told a disgustingly self-congratulatory story (about his wife, the Presidential nominee,) about how he refused to listen to Hillary when she repeatedly told him "no" when he asked her out. Like it was somehow heroic to just outright ignore what she wanted because he knew what he wanted and was going to get it from her.
I think a lot of the so-called 'points' that are being scored are not with other men, but are part of what boys and men think is normal, acceptable and above all expected behavior. Which is different than it being simply performative.
Clinton telling that story was performative. A story which in his mind made the ends justify the means. But in the moment all those years ago, I suspect it wouldn't have been something he was doing to show off to other men. That was a sense of entitlement and a disrespectful act.
a fiendish thingy: Have you missed every thread about MRAs? Gamergate? Every 1980s T&A movie where boys want to see naked ladies for the sake of impressing their buddies?
I've been an active participant in most of those threads on mefi. What I see is not boys simply or only trying to impress their peers but men and boys assuming and declaring that they are entitled to women. Entitled to possess images of their bodies as well as their physical bodies. Entitled to fawning affection and sex. The MRA's and Gamergaters think they deserve dates, marriages, sex etc and they have set up an entire subculture for themselves which enforces that behavior. Because to those boys and men, women exist for them. They are possessions, not people.
Could I be wrong that many men and most men (as you say) do it to perform for other men? Yes. I'm not saying that peer pressure doesn't exist and isn't a part of it. But because of Gamergate and MRA's I think there are underlying assumptions related to that peer pressure which must be addressed. I am taking the time to say so here because I think it's a really important distinction. I'm a dad to a nine year old boy and it's this understanding that informs and guides the way my wife and I have enforced certain lessons to him over the past few years. That all human beings are people, deserving of respect and dignity, that he should be treating women as equals. That he is not entitled to anything, that people's bodies (and body parts) are their own and no ALWAYS means no. He's too young to understand the sexual aspect of consent, but that will be drilled into him when the time comes.
I am one of those men who asks what I can do to change things in part because I have the opportunity to do so with my kid(s). They're of an age and I have a small window where I can actually try to make a difference.
posted by zarq at 2:02 PM on January 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
We live in a culture where men and boys are encouraged by their peers, elders and pretty much every aspect of our society to incessantly pressure women in every way, offer no respect to their wishes, ignore their humanity and never take "no" as an answer. It's a part of every damned social strata we have. Bill Clinton last year at the Democratic convention told a disgustingly self-congratulatory story (about his wife, the Presidential nominee,) about how he refused to listen to Hillary when she repeatedly told him "no" when he asked her out. Like it was somehow heroic to just outright ignore what she wanted because he knew what he wanted and was going to get it from her.
I think a lot of the so-called 'points' that are being scored are not with other men, but are part of what boys and men think is normal, acceptable and above all expected behavior. Which is different than it being simply performative.
Clinton telling that story was performative. A story which in his mind made the ends justify the means. But in the moment all those years ago, I suspect it wouldn't have been something he was doing to show off to other men. That was a sense of entitlement and a disrespectful act.
a fiendish thingy: Have you missed every thread about MRAs? Gamergate? Every 1980s T&A movie where boys want to see naked ladies for the sake of impressing their buddies?
I've been an active participant in most of those threads on mefi. What I see is not boys simply or only trying to impress their peers but men and boys assuming and declaring that they are entitled to women. Entitled to possess images of their bodies as well as their physical bodies. Entitled to fawning affection and sex. The MRA's and Gamergaters think they deserve dates, marriages, sex etc and they have set up an entire subculture for themselves which enforces that behavior. Because to those boys and men, women exist for them. They are possessions, not people.
Could I be wrong that many men and most men (as you say) do it to perform for other men? Yes. I'm not saying that peer pressure doesn't exist and isn't a part of it. But because of Gamergate and MRA's I think there are underlying assumptions related to that peer pressure which must be addressed. I am taking the time to say so here because I think it's a really important distinction. I'm a dad to a nine year old boy and it's this understanding that informs and guides the way my wife and I have enforced certain lessons to him over the past few years. That all human beings are people, deserving of respect and dignity, that he should be treating women as equals. That he is not entitled to anything, that people's bodies (and body parts) are their own and no ALWAYS means no. He's too young to understand the sexual aspect of consent, but that will be drilled into him when the time comes.
I am one of those men who asks what I can do to change things in part because I have the opportunity to do so with my kid(s). They're of an age and I have a small window where I can actually try to make a difference.
posted by zarq at 2:02 PM on January 17, 2018 [10 favorites]
(And I don't mean, necessarily, to direct that anger at you, GenderNullPointerExpression: it's just that that particular MetaTalk still fills me with total fury today, years later, in part because it reflects many times in my life that I have experienced misogyny within queer spaces--as, frankly, a noticeably butch woman. God help actual femmes; they catch so much fucking shit. That discussion is a beautiful and, for me, easy to grab encapsulation of the fact that the queer community does not remotely get a pass for the problem of misogyny--just that queer men's interactions with misogyny are complex, and different men interact with misogyny in different ways.)
posted by sciatrix at 2:02 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 2:02 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
A small proportion of shitheads are entirely capable of ruining the lives of every woman who’s paths they cross, whilst the majority of men in their lives remain oblivious.
Please re-read the accounts of mefites in the Ansari thread. And in the Cat Person thread. And in the EL threads. Please understand that portraying these experiences and this kind of man as anomalous rather than commonplace is to disregard what women are telling you.
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it rare. Women are telling you that violations large and small make up the fabric of our lives, and you are saying "but it is a small proportion". Please understand that this response is the subject of the essay linked in this post.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 2:11 PM on January 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
Please re-read the accounts of mefites in the Ansari thread. And in the Cat Person thread. And in the EL threads. Please understand that portraying these experiences and this kind of man as anomalous rather than commonplace is to disregard what women are telling you.
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it rare. Women are telling you that violations large and small make up the fabric of our lives, and you are saying "but it is a small proportion". Please understand that this response is the subject of the essay linked in this post.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 2:11 PM on January 17, 2018 [20 favorites]
Some of the most misogynistic things men have ever said to my face have been cis gay men, speaking to me as a cis queer woman. In most cases they appear to be trying to bond with me over shared queerness, and their circles just happen to mostly contain other cis gay men.
I agree, and that needs to happen among circles of gay men, because straight men won't be caught dead in those circles.
The advocacy described in the linked article and the pulled quote was that (unspecified) men need to speak out against misogyny within (straight) masculine spaces. My point is that the misogyny of straight masculine spaces isn't a matter of consensus, it's a matter of violence. People who don't perform the right kind of masculinity are beaten as fags, raped as fags, and excluded as fags. You can't deconstruct masculinity by treating it as a vague consensus. You need to treat it as a system of violence. And that violence will determine who can and cannot be evangelists for consent within the metaphorical "locker-room." (Actual locker rooms are inaccessible to me, by both statute and the potential for violence.)
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:15 PM on January 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I agree, and that needs to happen among circles of gay men, because straight men won't be caught dead in those circles.
The advocacy described in the linked article and the pulled quote was that (unspecified) men need to speak out against misogyny within (straight) masculine spaces. My point is that the misogyny of straight masculine spaces isn't a matter of consensus, it's a matter of violence. People who don't perform the right kind of masculinity are beaten as fags, raped as fags, and excluded as fags. You can't deconstruct masculinity by treating it as a vague consensus. You need to treat it as a system of violence. And that violence will determine who can and cannot be evangelists for consent within the metaphorical "locker-room." (Actual locker rooms are inaccessible to me, by both statute and the potential for violence.)
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 2:15 PM on January 17, 2018 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't presume to claim to be a feminist to a woman, but I'll definitely tell a man that I'm a feminist, especially if he sounds like he's about to say stupidly disparaging things about feminism or something a particular woman said.
posted by straight at 2:16 PM on January 17, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by straight at 2:16 PM on January 17, 2018 [14 favorites]
Seconding sciatrix on everything. There’s a reason why violent homophobia gets directed more at “effeminate” gay men, or bottoms, or anyone perceived to be undermining the primacy of masculinity, and it’s not because people love women. My read on the (LOTS OF) misogyny I’ve experienced from gay men is that it is much more blatant — I’m talking open disgust and contempt, especially if we’re not performing femininity “correctly” in a way that entertains them — because they literally have no use for us. And maybe for some, we remind them of the pain of coming to terms with not being straight.
(But that again is another form of misogyny and patriarchy at work: yeah, not being straight in a homophobic society is hard and painful. Why the fuck do you blame women for it?)
This is the unapologetic misogyny that is still largely acceptable in leftist or progressive places, where the perpetrators don’t even have to give lip service to feminism, and it is harmful to women. Sometimes it’s covered up with a “haha just joking,” but everyone here should know why this is not actually better. This is a big part of the pyramid in many places, and particularly in places of cultural influence. (Lotsa gays in NYC and LA.)
So queer spaces do not get a pass. Queer women don’t get a pass. Queer women do not get a pass for performing toxic masculinity because they identify as masculine of center. And gay men do not get a pass on misogyny just because the damage they do to women isn’t (usually) sexual in nature.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:27 PM on January 17, 2018 [12 favorites]
(But that again is another form of misogyny and patriarchy at work: yeah, not being straight in a homophobic society is hard and painful. Why the fuck do you blame women for it?)
This is the unapologetic misogyny that is still largely acceptable in leftist or progressive places, where the perpetrators don’t even have to give lip service to feminism, and it is harmful to women. Sometimes it’s covered up with a “haha just joking,” but everyone here should know why this is not actually better. This is a big part of the pyramid in many places, and particularly in places of cultural influence. (Lotsa gays in NYC and LA.)
So queer spaces do not get a pass. Queer women don’t get a pass. Queer women do not get a pass for performing toxic masculinity because they identify as masculine of center. And gay men do not get a pass on misogyny just because the damage they do to women isn’t (usually) sexual in nature.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:27 PM on January 17, 2018 [12 favorites]
I’m asking you to say it every man you know. Your doctor. Your barber. Your best friend from college. Your boss. The guys you mentor. The little brother that you volunteer with through big brothers.
Don’t wait until they’re about to say something shitty. Because when they’re saying something shitty they think they have control of the situation. And they ALREADY have enough reason to believe that you agree with them, if they’d be willing to say shitty things in front of you.
Ask yourselves why other men think it’s ok with you? Which of your actions has suggested that you are in the same plane with regard to misogyny. Wait. I’ll tell you. It’s because you haven’t told them it’s not ok. The whole point of this essay is that your inaction is an action. Your waiting around is a tacit permission. Revoke that.
Tell them it’s not ok. Yes. That’s going to be uncomfortable when you discover that you’re getting pushback from guys you thought were not assholes. Welcome to the tiniest sliver of the discomfort of our lives.
And because the conversation almost always ends up with some guy asking if I’m demanding he get in the faces of strangers on trains who te being violent dicks. NO. Get the cops involved with that shit. Do not endanger yourself. But tell all the dudes you know that this behavior isn’t ok.
posted by bilabial at 2:30 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
Don’t wait until they’re about to say something shitty. Because when they’re saying something shitty they think they have control of the situation. And they ALREADY have enough reason to believe that you agree with them, if they’d be willing to say shitty things in front of you.
Ask yourselves why other men think it’s ok with you? Which of your actions has suggested that you are in the same plane with regard to misogyny. Wait. I’ll tell you. It’s because you haven’t told them it’s not ok. The whole point of this essay is that your inaction is an action. Your waiting around is a tacit permission. Revoke that.
Tell them it’s not ok. Yes. That’s going to be uncomfortable when you discover that you’re getting pushback from guys you thought were not assholes. Welcome to the tiniest sliver of the discomfort of our lives.
And because the conversation almost always ends up with some guy asking if I’m demanding he get in the faces of strangers on trains who te being violent dicks. NO. Get the cops involved with that shit. Do not endanger yourself. But tell all the dudes you know that this behavior isn’t ok.
posted by bilabial at 2:30 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
And that violence will determine who can and cannot be evangelists for consent within the metaphorical "locker-room."
In that locker room, yes, for all the reasons you mentioned. But the very point of this is that it doesn’t start or stop in that violently straight and masculine locker room. It matters everywhere. The degrading “women aren’t really people” misogyny is inseparable from and exists as a predicate to the more explicitly sexually violent misogyny you describe in those locker rooms. It’s all a reinforcing web of shit.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:31 PM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
In that locker room, yes, for all the reasons you mentioned. But the very point of this is that it doesn’t start or stop in that violently straight and masculine locker room. It matters everywhere. The degrading “women aren’t really people” misogyny is inseparable from and exists as a predicate to the more explicitly sexually violent misogyny you describe in those locker rooms. It’s all a reinforcing web of shit.
posted by schadenfrau at 2:31 PM on January 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
We live in a culture where men and boys are encouraged by their peers, elders and pretty much every aspect of our society to incessantly pressure women in every way, offer no respect to their wishes, ignore their humanity and never take "no" as an answer.
Yes, and I think this is also fed by an equally toxic idea that also runs through our culture of like, 'lol, women, who even knows what they want?' Like, it's sort of shocking in retrospect (although I guess not really surprising at all) how much the the sitcoms that I watched growing up were premised on the idea that women were totally inscrutable to men, and that they absolutely could not be trusted to plainly and directly narrate their feelings or experience. This was almost always dressed up as some version of "you idiot! Everyone knows that a woman isn't fine when she says she's fine!"
In some ways, I think it's the more insidious strand, because it dresses itself up as gentle humor at the expense of men, but implicitly claims, over and over again, that women are fundamentally other, and, even worse, that what they want and think in any given situation is a puzzle for men to solve for themselves, rather than just a straightforward matter of asking.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:31 PM on January 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
Yes, and I think this is also fed by an equally toxic idea that also runs through our culture of like, 'lol, women, who even knows what they want?' Like, it's sort of shocking in retrospect (although I guess not really surprising at all) how much the the sitcoms that I watched growing up were premised on the idea that women were totally inscrutable to men, and that they absolutely could not be trusted to plainly and directly narrate their feelings or experience. This was almost always dressed up as some version of "you idiot! Everyone knows that a woman isn't fine when she says she's fine!"
In some ways, I think it's the more insidious strand, because it dresses itself up as gentle humor at the expense of men, but implicitly claims, over and over again, that women are fundamentally other, and, even worse, that what they want and think in any given situation is a puzzle for men to solve for themselves, rather than just a straightforward matter of asking.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:31 PM on January 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
A small proportion of shitheads are entirely capable of ruining the lives of every woman who’s paths they cross, whilst the majority of men in their lives remain oblivious.
I don't have the numbers. I don't know if it a small percentage, a large percentage, or the majority. I don't think it matters.
The point of this article isn't that there is a tiny cadre of self-selected misogynists daringly working outside the system, somehow hiding from the majority of good-if-oblivious men. The point is that the most toxic misogyny is the top of a pyramid of smaller, less visible misogyny, and would be impossible without it.
If you're not seeing that kind of misogyny, it's probably not because terrible men are so very clever at hiding it. It's probably because you're unthinkingly participating in it, and the article asks for you to revisit this. You and me.
posted by maxsparber at 2:33 PM on January 17, 2018 [29 favorites]
I don't have the numbers. I don't know if it a small percentage, a large percentage, or the majority. I don't think it matters.
The point of this article isn't that there is a tiny cadre of self-selected misogynists daringly working outside the system, somehow hiding from the majority of good-if-oblivious men. The point is that the most toxic misogyny is the top of a pyramid of smaller, less visible misogyny, and would be impossible without it.
If you're not seeing that kind of misogyny, it's probably not because terrible men are so very clever at hiding it. It's probably because you're unthinkingly participating in it, and the article asks for you to revisit this. You and me.
posted by maxsparber at 2:33 PM on January 17, 2018 [29 favorites]
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't make it rare.
I think that’s what I said, rephrased? It’s certainly what I meant to say.
Women are telling you that violations large and small make up the fabric of our lives
& I believe them. Last time I had this conversation in person, those were my exact words. (Mostly thanks to the education I have received here if I’m honest.)
My comment was intended to push back on the response to zarq with a personal example, not to argue against the thesis of the essay (which I am wholeheartedly behind). It’s my fault for not being clearer given the context.
I am listening, I promise.
posted by pharm at 3:16 PM on January 17, 2018
I think that’s what I said, rephrased? It’s certainly what I meant to say.
Women are telling you that violations large and small make up the fabric of our lives
& I believe them. Last time I had this conversation in person, those were my exact words. (Mostly thanks to the education I have received here if I’m honest.)
My comment was intended to push back on the response to zarq with a personal example, not to argue against the thesis of the essay (which I am wholeheartedly behind). It’s my fault for not being clearer given the context.
I am listening, I promise.
posted by pharm at 3:16 PM on January 17, 2018
the majority of men in their lives remain oblivious
If they were oblivious, they wouldn't get so defensive when their friends/ partners/ coworkers say things like, "some jerk was looming over me on the bus and kept staring down my shirt and leering at me."
The response usually isn't, "Christ, what an asshole." It's often, "Are you sure? Maybe it was just crowded and didn't realize how close he was. I'm sure he was just appreciating the view; you can't fault him for that, right? Hey, maybe he was on the spectrum and just didn't realize he was coming across as rude."
They're not oblivious; they're silently complicit, and they don't want to do anything to change the status quo. They're not sure what they gain by it, but they will absolutely defend the honor of Virile Manhood by insisting that any expression of lust by a stranger must have been well-intentioned, or at least, not ill-intentioned.
If the majority were oblivious, GamerGate would've been met with a resounding smackdown by the male half of the general public.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:30 PM on January 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
If they were oblivious, they wouldn't get so defensive when their friends/ partners/ coworkers say things like, "some jerk was looming over me on the bus and kept staring down my shirt and leering at me."
The response usually isn't, "Christ, what an asshole." It's often, "Are you sure? Maybe it was just crowded and didn't realize how close he was. I'm sure he was just appreciating the view; you can't fault him for that, right? Hey, maybe he was on the spectrum and just didn't realize he was coming across as rude."
They're not oblivious; they're silently complicit, and they don't want to do anything to change the status quo. They're not sure what they gain by it, but they will absolutely defend the honor of Virile Manhood by insisting that any expression of lust by a stranger must have been well-intentioned, or at least, not ill-intentioned.
If the majority were oblivious, GamerGate would've been met with a resounding smackdown by the male half of the general public.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 3:30 PM on January 17, 2018 [22 favorites]
Men do not brag about instilling fear in women.
The number of men I've known and encountered who happily do this on a regular basis is significantly greater than zero.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:34 PM on January 17, 2018 [9 favorites]
The number of men I've known and encountered who happily do this on a regular basis is significantly greater than zero.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:34 PM on January 17, 2018 [9 favorites]
So queer spaces do not get a pass.
Of course queer spaces do not get a pass. But queer spaces are violently excluded from the kinds of masculine culture explicitly discussed in the article and pulled quote. I just got a link in my feed suggesting that 1/2 bi men are sexual assault survivors, which is consistent with other studies of systemic violence against LGBTQ people. In my opinion, any model that treats perpetrators and victims of homophobic and transphobic violence as equally collaborative with each other is deeply flawed. It's not a collaborative pyramid, it's a caste system.
The claimed take-away of this is that we can have a revolution in the fight against misogyny if men speak to men in locker-rooms, doctors, barbers, alumni networks, workplaces, and community service organizations, etc.. All of the above are sites of systemic violence and discrimination, specifically to keep misogyny running. I don't have much hope that pro-feminist men talking to their barbers is the magic key.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:38 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Of course queer spaces do not get a pass. But queer spaces are violently excluded from the kinds of masculine culture explicitly discussed in the article and pulled quote. I just got a link in my feed suggesting that 1/2 bi men are sexual assault survivors, which is consistent with other studies of systemic violence against LGBTQ people. In my opinion, any model that treats perpetrators and victims of homophobic and transphobic violence as equally collaborative with each other is deeply flawed. It's not a collaborative pyramid, it's a caste system.
The claimed take-away of this is that we can have a revolution in the fight against misogyny if men speak to men in locker-rooms, doctors, barbers, alumni networks, workplaces, and community service organizations, etc.. All of the above are sites of systemic violence and discrimination, specifically to keep misogyny running. I don't have much hope that pro-feminist men talking to their barbers is the magic key.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 3:38 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well.... except, no. That's actually what I'm saying, GenderNullPointerException:
I'm saying that "networks of men speaking to each other" includes all networks of men speaking to each other. In all situations where men primarily speak to one another. If that includes general-sense locker rooms, it should also include bathhouses, leather bars, and the locker rooms used by my local gay softball league.
Because if you think that this kind of misogyny is limited only to straight cis men in locker rooms at the--well, surely not the YMCA, but whatever magical manly locker rooms exist that only cater to straight men and make anyone a touch queer fear for his life...
Then I don't know what else I can actually say to you about what we need from men when it comes to dismantling misogyny. The whole point is this: the locker room is a metaphor, not a real place. It stands for every place women do not go. It stands for every conversation where women have no voice, because we are not and cannot be in the room.
There are rooms men have access to that I do not. I need people to speak out against misogyny in those rooms. And not all of those rooms are heteronormative, and I actually think the article is very clear about this.
posted by sciatrix at 3:49 PM on January 17, 2018 [25 favorites]
I'm saying that "networks of men speaking to each other" includes all networks of men speaking to each other. In all situations where men primarily speak to one another. If that includes general-sense locker rooms, it should also include bathhouses, leather bars, and the locker rooms used by my local gay softball league.
Because if you think that this kind of misogyny is limited only to straight cis men in locker rooms at the--well, surely not the YMCA, but whatever magical manly locker rooms exist that only cater to straight men and make anyone a touch queer fear for his life...
Then I don't know what else I can actually say to you about what we need from men when it comes to dismantling misogyny. The whole point is this: the locker room is a metaphor, not a real place. It stands for every place women do not go. It stands for every conversation where women have no voice, because we are not and cannot be in the room.
There are rooms men have access to that I do not. I need people to speak out against misogyny in those rooms. And not all of those rooms are heteronormative, and I actually think the article is very clear about this.
posted by sciatrix at 3:49 PM on January 17, 2018 [25 favorites]
I've been thinking that some men here will have had the good luck to grow up amongst mostly decent people, and be decent themselves, and have a little trouble believing that there really are a lot of men who are like X, or are motivated by Y. And when they say so, to a lot of women that's going to sound like they're trying to invalidate their life experience. And then they'll say "no, I just..." and it goes downhill from there.
On the one hand, I don't like to see people get slammed for saying "surely people aren't *that* bad" just because they're decent enough that they find it hard to imagine. On the other hand...
Well...to pick an ancient example that might be lost on millenials...I always figured OJ was guilty. But that's just one (double-) murder that got way too much attention. The more interesting thing at the time was the polls showing how many more black people (percentage-wise) believed in his innocence than white people. The takeaway, for me, wasn't "who is right or wrong about this one particular case?" but "what kind of life experience do black people in America have, that their perception is so different from white people?" (It was a long time ago, okay, and I hadn't thought about that sort of thing much before.)
So, if there's a middle ground here...maybe we can agree that some people find certain things hard to believe because they've been lucky, they're decent-hearted, and have trouble imagining that a lot of people could be so vile; and likewise, that if you're one of those lucky people, don't worry so much about the actual percentages (as interesting as that might be) and think more about the life experiences that make other people have such a different take on things.
posted by uosuaq at 4:09 PM on January 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
On the one hand, I don't like to see people get slammed for saying "surely people aren't *that* bad" just because they're decent enough that they find it hard to imagine. On the other hand...
Well...to pick an ancient example that might be lost on millenials...I always figured OJ was guilty. But that's just one (double-) murder that got way too much attention. The more interesting thing at the time was the polls showing how many more black people (percentage-wise) believed in his innocence than white people. The takeaway, for me, wasn't "who is right or wrong about this one particular case?" but "what kind of life experience do black people in America have, that their perception is so different from white people?" (It was a long time ago, okay, and I hadn't thought about that sort of thing much before.)
So, if there's a middle ground here...maybe we can agree that some people find certain things hard to believe because they've been lucky, they're decent-hearted, and have trouble imagining that a lot of people could be so vile; and likewise, that if you're one of those lucky people, don't worry so much about the actual percentages (as interesting as that might be) and think more about the life experiences that make other people have such a different take on things.
posted by uosuaq at 4:09 PM on January 17, 2018 [6 favorites]
It's not a collaborative pyramid, it's a caste system
You are...really not getting this. That caste system completely excludes women. You don’t see the ways in which gay men who are lower down in caste (or whatever) contribute to the pyramid of misogyny because...honestly I don’t even know why. We have been really clear about this.
Queer men don’t need to convince straight men to see women as people. Queer men need to convince other queer men to see women as people, and act like it.
Because by and large, they don’t. Just like most straight men. And that is what contributes to the pyramid.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:16 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
You are...really not getting this. That caste system completely excludes women. You don’t see the ways in which gay men who are lower down in caste (or whatever) contribute to the pyramid of misogyny because...honestly I don’t even know why. We have been really clear about this.
Queer men don’t need to convince straight men to see women as people. Queer men need to convince other queer men to see women as people, and act like it.
Because by and large, they don’t. Just like most straight men. And that is what contributes to the pyramid.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:16 PM on January 17, 2018 [17 favorites]
Put another way, this weird abdication of responsibility thing you’re doing — you can’t change straight men, bc you’re afraid of them — is based on a straw man. The entire point of this is that misogyny is a problem everywhere, and men should address it where they are. Why would you focus on the misogyny you can’t reach, rather than the misogyny that’s right in front of you, other then to proclaim that this is not your job?
posted by schadenfrau at 4:19 PM on January 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
posted by schadenfrau at 4:19 PM on January 17, 2018 [19 favorites]
I'm saying that "networks of men speaking to each other" includes all networks of men speaking to each other. In all situations where men primarily speak to one another. If that includes general-sense locker rooms, it should also include bathhouses, leather bars, and the locker rooms used by my local gay softball league.
You're saying that and I agree with you. I disagree with the article that treats men as equivalent participants in the "pyramid" and ignores that misogyny responds to attempts to destabilize it with violence.
The whole point is this: the locker room is a metaphor, not a real place. It stands for every place women do not go.
My interpretation of the metaphor is that the "locker room" stands for the tacit backrooms (another metaphor) of straight male power. And as such, they're also violent sites of oppression. I think that straight pro-feminist straight men are tolerated now because they're easily marginalized, if they ever reach a point where they might "destabilize" misogyny, their peers will respond with the kinds of escalating violence experienced by LGBTQ people. At some point we need to address the probability that undermining misogyny isn't going to be a matter of peaceful evangelism, it will involve resisting an inherently violent system that responds with violence.
Otherwise, as I've stated multiple times already, I agree with you that misogyny in queer communities must be addressed. Since those communities are violently segregated from straight culture, that will have to happen independently of the activism discussed in the linked article.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:35 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
You're saying that and I agree with you. I disagree with the article that treats men as equivalent participants in the "pyramid" and ignores that misogyny responds to attempts to destabilize it with violence.
The whole point is this: the locker room is a metaphor, not a real place. It stands for every place women do not go.
My interpretation of the metaphor is that the "locker room" stands for the tacit backrooms (another metaphor) of straight male power. And as such, they're also violent sites of oppression. I think that straight pro-feminist straight men are tolerated now because they're easily marginalized, if they ever reach a point where they might "destabilize" misogyny, their peers will respond with the kinds of escalating violence experienced by LGBTQ people. At some point we need to address the probability that undermining misogyny isn't going to be a matter of peaceful evangelism, it will involve resisting an inherently violent system that responds with violence.
Otherwise, as I've stated multiple times already, I agree with you that misogyny in queer communities must be addressed. Since those communities are violently segregated from straight culture, that will have to happen independently of the activism discussed in the linked article.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 4:35 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
You don’t see the ways in which gay men who are lower down in caste (or whatever) contribute to the pyramid of misogyny because...honestly I don’t even know why. We have been really clear about this.
I've said multiple times: misogyny in queer communities must be addressed. I don't know why you think I disagree, but I'm not willing to debate that further.
Also, I'm not abdicating responsibility. I'm calling for realistic action against an inherently violent system. Pro-feminist men need to deal with the possibility that they'll be violently marginalized along with queer men. And intersectionality is important to examine where individual men may be most effective.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:10 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I've said multiple times: misogyny in queer communities must be addressed. I don't know why you think I disagree, but I'm not willing to debate that further.
Also, I'm not abdicating responsibility. I'm calling for realistic action against an inherently violent system. Pro-feminist men need to deal with the possibility that they'll be violently marginalized along with queer men. And intersectionality is important to examine where individual men may be most effective.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 5:10 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hello, I'm a lesbian. I'm also not the best at guessing people's intentions (aspie). There are definitely men that are into the fact that I'm not into them.
I had an experience this week where I was chatting with a couple of acquaintances. When they left, the guy next to me turned and told me that one of the men that just left wanted to fuck me. That all men only talk to me because they want to fuck me. That I need to get used to it, because I seem like I'm 'cool'. Even though I tell people I don't sleep with men, that won't matter.
Now, I take that as a threat. I'm obviously crying at this point. The bartenders chase him away from me.
He comes back, buys me a drink, and asks for my number. Even after making me cry, knowing I don't like to sleep with men, none of that is apparently a turn-off. And that was just one bad experience I've had with straight men that day.
I don't know how I can even interact with men any longer. So many times I've had experiences like this. I don't understand why we're discussing 'queers' like we're the source of the problem. Obviously we're not perfect either, but it's not queer people that I'm afraid to even make eye contact with anymore. Queer men don't pick me up off of my seat and kiss me. Queer people don't bully me into coming back to their place with their friends and surprise me with their dicks. The boss that invited me to party with my male coworkers, then put on violent porn, was not queer.
Now, some of this is my 'fault', in the sense that most people would understand that these guys are shady. But countless men have witnessed this and not done a damn thing about it. I guess maintaining friendships is more important than helping out some stupid woman that should know better.
posted by Trifling at 8:57 PM on January 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
I had an experience this week where I was chatting with a couple of acquaintances. When they left, the guy next to me turned and told me that one of the men that just left wanted to fuck me. That all men only talk to me because they want to fuck me. That I need to get used to it, because I seem like I'm 'cool'. Even though I tell people I don't sleep with men, that won't matter.
Now, I take that as a threat. I'm obviously crying at this point. The bartenders chase him away from me.
He comes back, buys me a drink, and asks for my number. Even after making me cry, knowing I don't like to sleep with men, none of that is apparently a turn-off. And that was just one bad experience I've had with straight men that day.
I don't know how I can even interact with men any longer. So many times I've had experiences like this. I don't understand why we're discussing 'queers' like we're the source of the problem. Obviously we're not perfect either, but it's not queer people that I'm afraid to even make eye contact with anymore. Queer men don't pick me up off of my seat and kiss me. Queer people don't bully me into coming back to their place with their friends and surprise me with their dicks. The boss that invited me to party with my male coworkers, then put on violent porn, was not queer.
Now, some of this is my 'fault', in the sense that most people would understand that these guys are shady. But countless men have witnessed this and not done a damn thing about it. I guess maintaining friendships is more important than helping out some stupid woman that should know better.
posted by Trifling at 8:57 PM on January 17, 2018 [8 favorites]
Why would you focus on the misogyny you can’t reach, rather than the misogyny that’s right in front of you, other then to proclaim that this is not your job?
This has been nagging on me, so I'll give the personal answer. The misogyny that's right in front of me includes years of daily harassment, one mugging, four beatings, and two rapes. I count myself lucky that my numbers are that low. I testify to that in order to hold straight and cis men (primarily) responsible for the violence they commit.
My job includes the possibility that might happen again. So be it.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:21 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
This has been nagging on me, so I'll give the personal answer. The misogyny that's right in front of me includes years of daily harassment, one mugging, four beatings, and two rapes. I count myself lucky that my numbers are that low. I testify to that in order to hold straight and cis men (primarily) responsible for the violence they commit.
My job includes the possibility that might happen again. So be it.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:21 PM on January 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't think men can be feminist.
Back when I considered myself a man, I thought I was a feminist. Many of my views on feminism were shaped by MeFi and the intense discussions about the experiences of women that took place here. Partly as a result of having a more sophisticated framework for thinking about gender, I was able to work through many of the feelings I'd had in the first thirty-ish years of my life about my own gender, understand that I'm transgender and made the decision to transition. I live my life as a woman now and still consider myself a feminist.
So there have been times in my life where I was living as a man, thought of myself as a man and considered myself to be a feminist; times when I was living as a man, thought of myself as a woman and considered myself to be a feminist; and now I'm living as a woman, think of myself as a woman and consider myself to be a feminist. These aren't distinct phases - they overlap.
Did I become a feminist after I transitioned? Was I a feminist all along? Or do I still not count? What about trans men and non-binary people?
posted by xchmp at 5:29 AM on January 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
Back when I considered myself a man, I thought I was a feminist. Many of my views on feminism were shaped by MeFi and the intense discussions about the experiences of women that took place here. Partly as a result of having a more sophisticated framework for thinking about gender, I was able to work through many of the feelings I'd had in the first thirty-ish years of my life about my own gender, understand that I'm transgender and made the decision to transition. I live my life as a woman now and still consider myself a feminist.
So there have been times in my life where I was living as a man, thought of myself as a man and considered myself to be a feminist; times when I was living as a man, thought of myself as a woman and considered myself to be a feminist; and now I'm living as a woman, think of myself as a woman and consider myself to be a feminist. These aren't distinct phases - they overlap.
Did I become a feminist after I transitioned? Was I a feminist all along? Or do I still not count? What about trans men and non-binary people?
posted by xchmp at 5:29 AM on January 18, 2018 [7 favorites]
The point is, if you're not willing to be uncomfortable with peers who might trash you for respecting women, you are ok with allowing women to continue to be uncomfortable and much, much worse.
Ooooh quoted for MEGA TRUTH. Thank you for this. I will literally use this phrase every day.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:32 AM on January 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
Ooooh quoted for MEGA TRUTH. Thank you for this. I will literally use this phrase every day.
posted by Dressed to Kill at 6:32 AM on January 18, 2018 [5 favorites]
I believe that men can be feminists, and can certainly support the goals of feminism, but experience has taught me not to trust men who self-identify as feminists.
Experience has taught me that most men who identify as feminists have not done the work to understand what that means, and that they claim that identity as a way to get social rewards, not in the interest of doing the work to break down social structures that hurt women.
I think the Lindy West piece is a brilliant explanation of why so many of us feel this tension-- if so many men are feminists, then why are they not familiar with the canonical texts and historical struggles of women's studies? Why don't they believe women? Why do they believe their own male friends "would never" act that way with a woman? Why are women's lived experiences so alien to them? Why aren't they conversant in the language and history of the discipline that they have co-opted for their own gain?
It reminds me of all the Republican lawmakers who "observed" MLK Jr. day with his most innocuous quotes, after entire careers of working to violate his life's work-- the same people who claimed he wouldn't want protesters to be "disruptive". Don't claim membership in a movement that you haven't lived and that you haven't attempted to understand.
When you claim the label of a movement that is about and for other people for yourself, I expect more than a cursory understanding of what it is and what it means.
(I don't hold women to this standard, because they are living it. Living through the age of 13 as a girl gives you an inherent understanding of about 85% of Wollstonecraft.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:50 AM on January 18, 2018 [19 favorites]
Experience has taught me that most men who identify as feminists have not done the work to understand what that means, and that they claim that identity as a way to get social rewards, not in the interest of doing the work to break down social structures that hurt women.
I think the Lindy West piece is a brilliant explanation of why so many of us feel this tension-- if so many men are feminists, then why are they not familiar with the canonical texts and historical struggles of women's studies? Why don't they believe women? Why do they believe their own male friends "would never" act that way with a woman? Why are women's lived experiences so alien to them? Why aren't they conversant in the language and history of the discipline that they have co-opted for their own gain?
It reminds me of all the Republican lawmakers who "observed" MLK Jr. day with his most innocuous quotes, after entire careers of working to violate his life's work-- the same people who claimed he wouldn't want protesters to be "disruptive". Don't claim membership in a movement that you haven't lived and that you haven't attempted to understand.
When you claim the label of a movement that is about and for other people for yourself, I expect more than a cursory understanding of what it is and what it means.
(I don't hold women to this standard, because they are living it. Living through the age of 13 as a girl gives you an inherent understanding of about 85% of Wollstonecraft.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:50 AM on January 18, 2018 [19 favorites]
oh christ oh god, "can men be feminists," "am I a real feminist." I am going to answer the question and answer it good.
Anyone who cannot make up their own mind and make their own argument about whether and why they are a feminist, but instead looks to outsource that thinking and the responsibility for that public identification to other women -- or, in the case of men, to women at large -- has answered their own question. (It's "no.") luckily, anybody at any second can change their mind to "yes."
Lots of other women have said what they said about not respecting (or trusting, or believing) men who are feminists. oh but wait, then there's me and people like me. I don't respect any man who isn't a feminist. Oh no, men are trapped, what will they do when women are so inconsistent?
well, I guess they are stuck having to decide what they believe and what to say they believe all on their own. I guess the responsibility for it can't be outsourced to Authority. I guess they have to live in a world where acknowledging your feminism pleases some people and enrages others. I guess this is one tiny little area where men don't have special privileges over women, where declaring or not declaring their feminism doesn't settle the issue, any issue, and they "can't win," even though winning is their birthright and this seems most unnatural.
I am an idealist so I think that the more men become comfortable with thinking independently and standing behind their own ideas, the closer we will come to true gender parity. sure, it's easy to say that only women are really suited for the intellectual rigor of determining first, their political philosophy, and second, the best way to describe it and discuss it publicly. but I believe in my heart that men can do it too, and if we're complicit in their refusal to do it for themselves and always step in to gallantly do it for them, how are they ever going to learn to participate in society as real equals with us?
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:55 AM on January 18, 2018 [24 favorites]
Anyone who cannot make up their own mind and make their own argument about whether and why they are a feminist, but instead looks to outsource that thinking and the responsibility for that public identification to other women -- or, in the case of men, to women at large -- has answered their own question. (It's "no.") luckily, anybody at any second can change their mind to "yes."
Lots of other women have said what they said about not respecting (or trusting, or believing) men who are feminists. oh but wait, then there's me and people like me. I don't respect any man who isn't a feminist. Oh no, men are trapped, what will they do when women are so inconsistent?
well, I guess they are stuck having to decide what they believe and what to say they believe all on their own. I guess the responsibility for it can't be outsourced to Authority. I guess they have to live in a world where acknowledging your feminism pleases some people and enrages others. I guess this is one tiny little area where men don't have special privileges over women, where declaring or not declaring their feminism doesn't settle the issue, any issue, and they "can't win," even though winning is their birthright and this seems most unnatural.
I am an idealist so I think that the more men become comfortable with thinking independently and standing behind their own ideas, the closer we will come to true gender parity. sure, it's easy to say that only women are really suited for the intellectual rigor of determining first, their political philosophy, and second, the best way to describe it and discuss it publicly. but I believe in my heart that men can do it too, and if we're complicit in their refusal to do it for themselves and always step in to gallantly do it for them, how are they ever going to learn to participate in society as real equals with us?
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:55 AM on January 18, 2018 [24 favorites]
Okay. Last comment from me on this, because I think we're both repeating ourselves now and that's usually a sign no one feels like they are being heard. Yes?
I agree with you that some men, particularly queer men, are targeted with violence for undermining both patriarchy and misogyny. I absolutely understand the desire to not get murdered for challenging straight male hegemony when your own gender presentation or sexual preferences make you a potential target of violence, even if you are male yourself. (Which I actually don't know--I don't know you very well, so I'm trying not to make assumptions about your actual gender, GenderNullPointerException.)
Where I think we are talking past each other regarding the article is that I think the article is very, very clear that men who passively enable misogyny, especially in spaces that they are not presently targets of misogynistic discrimination--that is, not men under threat of homophobic or transphobic or gender-essentialist violence at that present time--are in fact responsible for passively enabling the cultural structures that allow violence against women and people associated with women to be perpetuated.
My point specifically targeting non cis/straight men is that these men are as likely to enable misogyny even when they personally feel physically safe as anyone else. My point is further that in spaces where they are not personally targets of, effectively, transmisogyny (yes, including men who are not trans women, because the same prejudices can apply to queer men generally as well), these men tend to perpetuate misogyny as much as men in other mostly-male spaces, and that in these contexts these men are just as responsible for their role in passively enabling these misogynistic dynamics as cis straight men who are not currently under fire themselves.
I am not sure why you're so defensive about this. I personally feel it's clear in the article that the author would agree with this if she had taken the time to single out queer men; if she had, my experience is that this singling out would probably have been interpreted as homophobic. We can't win for losing.
So as a queer gender non conforming woman, watching misogyny acting on women and people read as women all around me of all gender histories, gender performances (for lack of a better and less TERFy word) and sexualities... Watching that, and watching the role that gay men play, especially gender conforming/not femme cis gay men, in enabling those dynamics.... And watching the way some of these men extend and perpetuate these dynamics against both women and more femme men in their own communities and spaces...
I am very cynical about extending gay men a pass here. No.
posted by sciatrix at 7:39 AM on January 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
I agree with you that some men, particularly queer men, are targeted with violence for undermining both patriarchy and misogyny. I absolutely understand the desire to not get murdered for challenging straight male hegemony when your own gender presentation or sexual preferences make you a potential target of violence, even if you are male yourself. (Which I actually don't know--I don't know you very well, so I'm trying not to make assumptions about your actual gender, GenderNullPointerException.)
Where I think we are talking past each other regarding the article is that I think the article is very, very clear that men who passively enable misogyny, especially in spaces that they are not presently targets of misogynistic discrimination--that is, not men under threat of homophobic or transphobic or gender-essentialist violence at that present time--are in fact responsible for passively enabling the cultural structures that allow violence against women and people associated with women to be perpetuated.
My point specifically targeting non cis/straight men is that these men are as likely to enable misogyny even when they personally feel physically safe as anyone else. My point is further that in spaces where they are not personally targets of, effectively, transmisogyny (yes, including men who are not trans women, because the same prejudices can apply to queer men generally as well), these men tend to perpetuate misogyny as much as men in other mostly-male spaces, and that in these contexts these men are just as responsible for their role in passively enabling these misogynistic dynamics as cis straight men who are not currently under fire themselves.
I am not sure why you're so defensive about this. I personally feel it's clear in the article that the author would agree with this if she had taken the time to single out queer men; if she had, my experience is that this singling out would probably have been interpreted as homophobic. We can't win for losing.
So as a queer gender non conforming woman, watching misogyny acting on women and people read as women all around me of all gender histories, gender performances (for lack of a better and less TERFy word) and sexualities... Watching that, and watching the role that gay men play, especially gender conforming/not femme cis gay men, in enabling those dynamics.... And watching the way some of these men extend and perpetuate these dynamics against both women and more femme men in their own communities and spaces...
I am very cynical about extending gay men a pass here. No.
posted by sciatrix at 7:39 AM on January 18, 2018 [9 favorites]
And I notice how much of this thread is women talking and men being defensive about whether this responsibility applies to them or that could or should identify as feminists, too. #notallmen, fine, but damn, this conversation is depressing.
I ask that question in that first comment I made in pretty much every discussion. It is invariably met with silence. I often conclude that men are either not reading the threads or feel too guilty about their conduct to speak, which...
I don't want your fucking guilt. I want you to act, and I don't give two wet shits about what motivates you to do it. What I want to know is what the problem is that keeps men from doing this so that I can lean hard on it and, if possible, help.
No takers?
posted by sciatrix at 7:43 AM on January 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
I ask that question in that first comment I made in pretty much every discussion. It is invariably met with silence. I often conclude that men are either not reading the threads or feel too guilty about their conduct to speak, which...
I don't want your fucking guilt. I want you to act, and I don't give two wet shits about what motivates you to do it. What I want to know is what the problem is that keeps men from doing this so that I can lean hard on it and, if possible, help.
No takers?
posted by sciatrix at 7:43 AM on January 18, 2018 [12 favorites]
if so many men are feminists, then why are they not familiar with the canonical texts and historical struggles of women's studies? Why don't they believe women?
agreed one thousand percent.
my mother was not a feminist, self-identified or otherwise. she believed or could be argued around to believing almost any individual feminist point, but the identity she did not claim, and it did matter; her voting habits reflected this. but she still gave me a copy of Simone de Beauvoir's autobiography for my 13th birthday, because she respected my interests.
I don't know any boys who got such gifts from their fathers. I don't know any boys who were passionately consumed with feminist angst at 13, either, and I can understand that easily enough, even though I don't like it. but even now, even today, even here, when people ask for book recommendations for boys and men, they're never three-quarters full of feminist lit and women's narratives. they should be. women can read this stuff if they want; men must. but they don't. and nobody seems to expect it. it's like their feminism, or pro-feminism, is supposed to arise out of inborn virtue primarily, and getting schooled by girlfriends and sisters secondarily.
like the way to get a feminist man is to manufacture him: be a good mommy to him when he's young and the right kind of girlfriend or friend to him when he's older: he's supposed to be a product of women's work, like a sampler or a quilt. make him as well as you can, feel glow of pride, stuff him in a hope chest for later.
like feminist men don't expect to have to think, and study, and read, and contemplate, and critique, and come to terms. like it's not serious. every feminist origin story that starts with a man falling off his donkey on the road to damascus because his sister said to him Hey did you ever think maybe sexism's awful? wears down my soul just a little bit more. and of course I shouldn't privilege academic discourse, and reading more generally, over speaking to and listening to women directly. and that's not what I mean to do. but -- you know what I mean.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:44 AM on January 18, 2018 [31 favorites]
agreed one thousand percent.
my mother was not a feminist, self-identified or otherwise. she believed or could be argued around to believing almost any individual feminist point, but the identity she did not claim, and it did matter; her voting habits reflected this. but she still gave me a copy of Simone de Beauvoir's autobiography for my 13th birthday, because she respected my interests.
I don't know any boys who got such gifts from their fathers. I don't know any boys who were passionately consumed with feminist angst at 13, either, and I can understand that easily enough, even though I don't like it. but even now, even today, even here, when people ask for book recommendations for boys and men, they're never three-quarters full of feminist lit and women's narratives. they should be. women can read this stuff if they want; men must. but they don't. and nobody seems to expect it. it's like their feminism, or pro-feminism, is supposed to arise out of inborn virtue primarily, and getting schooled by girlfriends and sisters secondarily.
like the way to get a feminist man is to manufacture him: be a good mommy to him when he's young and the right kind of girlfriend or friend to him when he's older: he's supposed to be a product of women's work, like a sampler or a quilt. make him as well as you can, feel glow of pride, stuff him in a hope chest for later.
like feminist men don't expect to have to think, and study, and read, and contemplate, and critique, and come to terms. like it's not serious. every feminist origin story that starts with a man falling off his donkey on the road to damascus because his sister said to him Hey did you ever think maybe sexism's awful? wears down my soul just a little bit more. and of course I shouldn't privilege academic discourse, and reading more generally, over speaking to and listening to women directly. and that's not what I mean to do. but -- you know what I mean.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:44 AM on January 18, 2018 [31 favorites]
sciatrix: No, gay men do not get a pass. Period. Can we agree to agree on this?
You asked above, "Why aren't you speaking to each other? Is it fear? Is it inertia? Is it loss of the benefits you receive from the system?" My answer is that any movement that depends on men talking to men will need to simultaneously wrestle with violent homophobia and internalized homophobia because that's how men silence men when it comes to misogyny.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:02 AM on January 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
You asked above, "Why aren't you speaking to each other? Is it fear? Is it inertia? Is it loss of the benefits you receive from the system?" My answer is that any movement that depends on men talking to men will need to simultaneously wrestle with violent homophobia and internalized homophobia because that's how men silence men when it comes to misogyny.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 8:02 AM on January 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
What I want to know is what the problem is that keeps men from doing this so that I can lean hard on it and, if possible, help.
Power is power. We do not want to give up even the scraps and possibility of power and access to power that actively working against misogyny would permanently end. Turning away or working against means being targeted by the same power structures. Asking men to give up power, even power they recognize as unjust, immoral, a theft, is a big ask.
Better to wield than be a target.
You could, like me, fuck up severely and lose access for other reasons, but that precarity means the allure of structured [misogynist/racist/bigoted] power is very strong. And I've kept my mouth shut in these kinds of spaces and conversations, out of fear of losing again.
Power.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:13 AM on January 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
Power is power. We do not want to give up even the scraps and possibility of power and access to power that actively working against misogyny would permanently end. Turning away or working against means being targeted by the same power structures. Asking men to give up power, even power they recognize as unjust, immoral, a theft, is a big ask.
Better to wield than be a target.
You could, like me, fuck up severely and lose access for other reasons, but that precarity means the allure of structured [misogynist/racist/bigoted] power is very strong. And I've kept my mouth shut in these kinds of spaces and conversations, out of fear of losing again.
Power.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:13 AM on January 18, 2018 [6 favorites]
eh, male feminists.
Feminism is a political movement about the liberation of women as a class from patriarchal oppression. Men can (and many of course do!, #notallmen, etc, etc) support this as an aim. But if you actually do support this as an aim, you can probably understand the necessity for women ourselves to be the ones leading and steering this movement, and the social conditioning that makes us less likely to recognise, state and stand up for our own interests when we're also trying to explain and defend them to men.
I have lost count of the number of self-declared feminist men who have mansplained to me how wrong I as a woman am about feminism, and it is truly suprising!* how much more that tends to happen when you say anything feminist that might in any way inconvenience them or make them reflect on how they, too, are complicit in this collaborative misogyny we face. Try it yourself some time! ("I think women should get equal pay for equal work" - right on, sister! "I think the pay gap reflects systematic inequalities in society that devalue 'feminine'-coded jobs and also hit women of childbearing age" - hmmm, not so fast, maybe women just like wiping arses and/or working round school holidays, I thought feminism was about choice mumble grumble. "I think the porn industry harms women" - BURN THE WITCH.)
That said I have no beef with men who say they're feminists because they are generally on board with what feminism is about and want to express their support for that. I'm not going to slap the word out of their hands or anything. But the ones who think feminism is a reaction to those men over there but shouldn't ever in any way say anything that makes them personally uncomfortable, because they're the good ones... nah. Thanks for listening on #metoo, but we need you to hear #youtoo as well.
* it is not suprising.
posted by Catseye at 8:13 AM on January 18, 2018 [21 favorites]
Feminism is a political movement about the liberation of women as a class from patriarchal oppression. Men can (and many of course do!, #notallmen, etc, etc) support this as an aim. But if you actually do support this as an aim, you can probably understand the necessity for women ourselves to be the ones leading and steering this movement, and the social conditioning that makes us less likely to recognise, state and stand up for our own interests when we're also trying to explain and defend them to men.
I have lost count of the number of self-declared feminist men who have mansplained to me how wrong I as a woman am about feminism, and it is truly suprising!* how much more that tends to happen when you say anything feminist that might in any way inconvenience them or make them reflect on how they, too, are complicit in this collaborative misogyny we face. Try it yourself some time! ("I think women should get equal pay for equal work" - right on, sister! "I think the pay gap reflects systematic inequalities in society that devalue 'feminine'-coded jobs and also hit women of childbearing age" - hmmm, not so fast, maybe women just like wiping arses and/or working round school holidays, I thought feminism was about choice mumble grumble. "I think the porn industry harms women" - BURN THE WITCH.)
That said I have no beef with men who say they're feminists because they are generally on board with what feminism is about and want to express their support for that. I'm not going to slap the word out of their hands or anything. But the ones who think feminism is a reaction to those men over there but shouldn't ever in any way say anything that makes them personally uncomfortable, because they're the good ones... nah. Thanks for listening on #metoo, but we need you to hear #youtoo as well.
* it is not suprising.
posted by Catseye at 8:13 AM on January 18, 2018 [21 favorites]
click.
Oh, for--now I'm just irritated with myself for what I think is the missed communication.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're primarily not talking about queer men here at all, right? You're talking of the insecurities of cis straight men concerned about being mistaken for gay and/or trans? Because if that's your point than uh, yeah, we can 100% agree to agree. I suppose part of my aggravation comes from the fact that I'm younger and have watched the way gay men are treated around me, which tends to correlate far more with gender presentation than their actual sexuality--in part because anti-homophobia has had so much success compared to anti-transphobia and we've successfully divorced gender and sexuality in the minds of many straight people, and I'd argue most people my age. (I'm twenty seven.)
But yeah, sure, absolutely the concern straight boys have about being Mistaken For Gay (the horror) or, more importantly, Less Than Completely Masculine would be a huge part of things--and I actually think that's part of what's going on with some of the gay men who do actively participate in propping up misogyny; it's an attempt to buy back some masculinity cred with other men, straight or not.
posted by sciatrix at 8:23 AM on January 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, for--now I'm just irritated with myself for what I think is the missed communication.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're primarily not talking about queer men here at all, right? You're talking of the insecurities of cis straight men concerned about being mistaken for gay and/or trans? Because if that's your point than uh, yeah, we can 100% agree to agree. I suppose part of my aggravation comes from the fact that I'm younger and have watched the way gay men are treated around me, which tends to correlate far more with gender presentation than their actual sexuality--in part because anti-homophobia has had so much success compared to anti-transphobia and we've successfully divorced gender and sexuality in the minds of many straight people, and I'd argue most people my age. (I'm twenty seven.)
But yeah, sure, absolutely the concern straight boys have about being Mistaken For Gay (the horror) or, more importantly, Less Than Completely Masculine would be a huge part of things--and I actually think that's part of what's going on with some of the gay men who do actively participate in propping up misogyny; it's an attempt to buy back some masculinity cred with other men, straight or not.
posted by sciatrix at 8:23 AM on January 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'll admit that I'm deeply biased and probably not entirely rational on this point. What I tried to call attention to is the pervasive and institutionally tolerated violence through which young men are enculturated into practicing misogyny.
None of which gets adult men (of any sexuality) off the hook for it. I just think that ending that cycle of peer violence is a necessary part of the picture. But it's a part that's taken up too much air in this discussion so far so I'd like to let it rest.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:32 AM on January 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
None of which gets adult men (of any sexuality) off the hook for it. I just think that ending that cycle of peer violence is a necessary part of the picture. But it's a part that's taken up too much air in this discussion so far so I'd like to let it rest.
posted by GenderNullPointerException at 9:32 AM on January 18, 2018 [4 favorites]
@trifling: Maybe I missed the point of what you were trying to say, but I've definitely had experiences with gay men that have left me startled, scared, and violated. I am a cis woman. Once, a gay man I was chatting with at a party decided it was ok to give me a 'makeover', telling me to take off my glasses and wear tighter clothes. Then, he grabbed my hips before I even realized what was happening, spun me around, and then grabbed my waist. He said, "If I had this tiny waist and these sexy hips, I'd be luring in men from all over the place. You should be USING this body!"
It was deeply disconcerting. The same night, this gay man also told me to "get over" my childhood sexual abuse, because it had happened to him too and *he'd* gotten over it. Something tells me that he hasn't. And he seemed to find it ok to pass on his trauma to me vis a vis violated boundaries by grabbing my body unsolicited. Yes, there is a problem, and it doesn't always come from cis men.
posted by erattacorrige at 10:53 AM on January 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
It was deeply disconcerting. The same night, this gay man also told me to "get over" my childhood sexual abuse, because it had happened to him too and *he'd* gotten over it. Something tells me that he hasn't. And he seemed to find it ok to pass on his trauma to me vis a vis violated boundaries by grabbing my body unsolicited. Yes, there is a problem, and it doesn't always come from cis men.
posted by erattacorrige at 10:53 AM on January 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
So, a childhood friend is on my Facebook feed. She posted an update today that lamented that she had been looking forward to joining the Womens' March today with her daughter, but her daughter had a cold. A lot of other people left sympathetic little "likes" or whatever, but that was it.
Something about that still bothered me, though, and it took me a while to figure out what it was: she also has a son. So I asked: "Was your son able to go instead, maybe?"
No answer yet. (It has been only 5 minutes, but.)
...At the end of the day, making it okay for men to speak out in womens' defense is something that has to be taught. This is the perfect time to teach boys how to do that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:09 PM on January 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
Something about that still bothered me, though, and it took me a while to figure out what it was: she also has a son. So I asked: "Was your son able to go instead, maybe?"
No answer yet. (It has been only 5 minutes, but.)
...At the end of the day, making it okay for men to speak out in womens' defense is something that has to be taught. This is the perfect time to teach boys how to do that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:09 PM on January 20, 2018 [3 favorites]
What I want to know is what the problem is that keeps men from doing this so that I can lean hard on it and, if possible, help.
For me, the biggest hurdle is probably social norms. I'm generally more socially awkward, and it takes a lot of conscious effort to figure out the behaviour that is expected within a group. And in the all-male groups I've been in, that expected behaviour involves strict rules that everybody plays by, rules that include certain forms of misogynistic displays. Perhaps it's due to toxic masculinity's fear of emotions and vulnerability, but it often feels like every man in a group of men is essentially performing: everybody dances the same established dance, and that way everybody is secure in their place in the grouping.
And it really does work: once I figured that out I knew the right things to do and say in any new social group and would immediately get accepted with minimal fuss, unlike in the past when I'd be outcast as a weirdo. And if you ever deviate from the norm, there'd be immense awkwardness from all around as the spell breaks and everybody tries to get back to the safety of the dance.
This isn't an excuse at all; women are subjected to far more social pressure than men, and men are incredibly privileged to have such a simple and risk-free way of getting into the groupings of power. Going against this privilege is necessary, and we have no right to kick a fuss about how hard it is.
Anyway, I don't think this is any kind of novel insight; it's probably sociology 101 and most people here understand this better than me. But perhaps the answer to your question is simply the pressure to conform. And for some (maybe many) men, it's not so much about power, but about fear: they're scared shitless at the idea of removing their masks and exposing any part of themselves.
posted by destrius at 5:23 PM on January 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
For me, the biggest hurdle is probably social norms. I'm generally more socially awkward, and it takes a lot of conscious effort to figure out the behaviour that is expected within a group. And in the all-male groups I've been in, that expected behaviour involves strict rules that everybody plays by, rules that include certain forms of misogynistic displays. Perhaps it's due to toxic masculinity's fear of emotions and vulnerability, but it often feels like every man in a group of men is essentially performing: everybody dances the same established dance, and that way everybody is secure in their place in the grouping.
And it really does work: once I figured that out I knew the right things to do and say in any new social group and would immediately get accepted with minimal fuss, unlike in the past when I'd be outcast as a weirdo. And if you ever deviate from the norm, there'd be immense awkwardness from all around as the spell breaks and everybody tries to get back to the safety of the dance.
This isn't an excuse at all; women are subjected to far more social pressure than men, and men are incredibly privileged to have such a simple and risk-free way of getting into the groupings of power. Going against this privilege is necessary, and we have no right to kick a fuss about how hard it is.
Anyway, I don't think this is any kind of novel insight; it's probably sociology 101 and most people here understand this better than me. But perhaps the answer to your question is simply the pressure to conform. And for some (maybe many) men, it's not so much about power, but about fear: they're scared shitless at the idea of removing their masks and exposing any part of themselves.
posted by destrius at 5:23 PM on January 22, 2018 [2 favorites]
« Older eye in the storm | Alive Inside Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
And
Men. Speak up. Say something. Shut these ‘jokes’ down. Tell your dude friends casually that you think what Aziz Ansari did was assault, morally if not legally. Don’t wait for it to come up. Start the conversation. Stop being friends with men who suggest/imply/demand that they have the right/nature/lack of self control and will continue to be shitty to women, or will defend men who are shitty to women. Those men are not ‘good people, they are rapists or at best assailters and rape apologists. Tell your dude friends that Cat Person reflects the stories of men you know and you think it’s gross that men pressure women into sex so much that a woman feels like saying yes is easier than saying no. Tell your dude friends that you respect women. And demonstrate that by not asking the women in your lives for a cookie every time you clear these ridiculously low bars. There is no prize for ending an otherwise lovely evening with a woman who doesn’t want to fellate you. There is no prize for not shoutinor whispering obscenities or mild compliments to strangers. There is no prize for not being creepy. Asking for a prize means you main complicit in our objectification.
posted by bilabial at 10:11 AM on January 17, 2018 [26 favorites]