You might want to check your cabinets for old tapes.
April 26, 2021 1:08 PM Subscribe
“I mean, I didn’t try to deceive anyone over Samantha the Teenage Witch. I swear.” Felony embezzlement charges for 20-year-old overdue VHS tape rental. And you thought libraries were harsh.
I read today that Sabrina was an Archie Comics spinoff. I always thought it was from Bewitched.
posted by shoesietart at 1:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by shoesietart at 1:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Getting Sabrina's name wrong should be considered a misdemeanor.
That's good because otherwise we would all be felons.
posted by y2karl at 1:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
That's good because otherwise we would all be felons.
posted by y2karl at 1:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Huh. I wonder if she could sue for damages relating to the loss of employment.
posted by eviemath at 1:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 1:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I have questions. (I’m not American and thus am not particularly familiar with US laws, so they may be dumb questions.)
Felony embezzlement sounds really, really serious! How could the courts have charged someone with this but not confirmed she had been informed? Wasn’t it someone’s job to track her down and try to get her to go to court if it’s such a serious charge?
How could it stay on her record if it was never actually taken through the court system? Isn’t there some kind of thing that says people have the right to a reasonably speedy trial or else it just gets dismissed? I know courts get backlogged (here, too) but I thought that was maybe many months or a couple of years at most, not decades.
That’s so sad she was probably dismissed from her job because of this and never even knew. How awful.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:23 PM on April 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
Felony embezzlement sounds really, really serious! How could the courts have charged someone with this but not confirmed she had been informed? Wasn’t it someone’s job to track her down and try to get her to go to court if it’s such a serious charge?
How could it stay on her record if it was never actually taken through the court system? Isn’t there some kind of thing that says people have the right to a reasonably speedy trial or else it just gets dismissed? I know courts get backlogged (here, too) but I thought that was maybe many months or a couple of years at most, not decades.
That’s so sad she was probably dismissed from her job because of this and never even knew. How awful.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:23 PM on April 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
This isn't like a haha news of the weird type oddity, this is like our bizarre & hateful country just throws people away over literally nothing.
posted by bleep at 1:23 PM on April 26, 2021 [81 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:23 PM on April 26, 2021 [81 favorites]
The use of the strong arm of the legal system to collect trifling ass debts is... Ugh.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:24 PM on April 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:24 PM on April 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
I'm not a lawyer, but how does 'embezzlement' apply here? Was she working at the video store?
posted by pwnguin at 1:24 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 1:24 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
How does no one along the way of deciding to prosecute this go from failure to return a VHS tape to felony embezzlement and not look at situation and think "wtf am I doing with my life"
posted by nubs at 1:25 PM on April 26, 2021 [29 favorites]
posted by nubs at 1:25 PM on April 26, 2021 [29 favorites]
I'm not a lawyer, but how does 'embezzlement' apply here? Was she working at the video store?
Embezzlement under Oklahoma law can involve not returning equipment after the end of a lease agreement.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
Embezzlement under Oklahoma law can involve not returning equipment after the end of a lease agreement.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2021 [12 favorites]
How could it stay on her record if it was never actually taken through the court system? Isn’t there some kind of thing that says people have the right to a reasonably speedy trial or else it just gets dismissed?
Haha no! People are held in jail for literally years waiting for trial, are treated worse than animals while they're there, and sometimes die. Especially over the last year.
Everyone involved in this thought they were STICKING IT TO THE EVIL DOERS and probably had an erection the whole time they were making this happen.
posted by bleep at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2021 [16 favorites]
Haha no! People are held in jail for literally years waiting for trial, are treated worse than animals while they're there, and sometimes die. Especially over the last year.
Everyone involved in this thought they were STICKING IT TO THE EVIL DOERS and probably had an erection the whole time they were making this happen.
posted by bleep at 1:26 PM on April 26, 2021 [16 favorites]
Here is the embezzlement statute in Oklahoma.
posted by JanetLand at 1:27 PM on April 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by JanetLand at 1:27 PM on April 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
You know, there is likely a record of the conviction and of the prosecutor, so it's kind of a shame the journalists didn't bother to get the court docket or the prosecutor's side of the story on why a $60 VHS tape was a felony in their mind, considering the statute JanetLand found places the bar at $15,000. (Maybe the statute was rewritten but...)
posted by pwnguin at 1:31 PM on April 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by pwnguin at 1:31 PM on April 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
The other thing that I was confused about was...she was just charged with this, right? Never convicted? Is it legal in the US for an employer to dismiss someone when they’ve just been charged but not convicted of a crime? (I guess maybe it’s hard to prove after the fact why they dismissed her, though.)
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:36 PM on April 26, 2021
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:36 PM on April 26, 2021
Is it legal in the US for an employer to dismiss someone when they’ve just been charged but not convicted of a crime?
Legal, and often strongly recommended when the legal recourse is too slow or not harsh enough in the eyes of the public.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:42 PM on April 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
Legal, and often strongly recommended when the legal recourse is too slow or not harsh enough in the eyes of the public.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:42 PM on April 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
They can dismiss you for any reason as long as they don't mention they're doing it because you're in a protected class, & that's only things like race, gender, disability, etc. I'd be shocked if "charged with a crime" ever becomes a protected class given that racist shitheads are in charge of making & enforcing the laws. and they can dismiss you for any reason they want if they don't think you'll sue.
posted by bleep at 1:46 PM on April 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by bleep at 1:46 PM on April 26, 2021 [10 favorites]
Ugh, that is awful. And also problematic for a lot more reasons than just specific to this situation.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:48 PM on April 26, 2021
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 1:48 PM on April 26, 2021
Back when my anxiety disorder was worse, I would have panic attacks about whether I had books missing from library systems I hadn't lived in in years. This is why.
I know I am not the only person who wonders if they really for sure settled up with Blockbuster before it died --
posted by Countess Elena at 1:49 PM on April 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
I know I am not the only person who wonders if they really for sure settled up with Blockbuster before it died --
posted by Countess Elena at 1:49 PM on April 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
According to the docket, that tape was—at the time—worth just under $60. (Yes, the price for rental tapes was very high in the ‘90s.)
That price would be for the entire season, maybe, or really the marked up fake price that videos stores would charge if you didn't rewind or return a video quickly enough. A single video was in the $15-20 range, same as a DVD today, but due to inflation, $15 then would be $25 in 2021 dollars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:58 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
That price would be for the entire season, maybe, or really the marked up fake price that videos stores would charge if you didn't rewind or return a video quickly enough. A single video was in the $15-20 range, same as a DVD today, but due to inflation, $15 then would be $25 in 2021 dollars.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:58 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
If the store closed in 2008 and the tape is 20 years overdue...could the store have not called or a E-mail perhaps a parachute flare.
I imagine the store filed (case info link is dead in linked article) a case, something didn't go, show or no and the charge just languished. Great ending.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on April 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
I imagine the store filed (case info link is dead in linked article) a case, something didn't go, show or no and the charge just languished. Great ending.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on April 26, 2021 [2 favorites]
Ah, the speedy trial thing.
Technically, yes, you do have a right to a speedy trial
But some of it comes down to capacity.
The US locks up a lot of people. A LOT of people. (We have the highest incarceration rate in the world by far).
Our courts still run on a government 9-5 Monday-Friday calendar.
I have mentioned, I think, that I worked as a bail bondsman for a while and that's the experience I'm drawing from here. So let's take an example.
Let's say you did something to annoy the cops enough to bring you in. Anything from, I dunno, getting too lippy during a traffic stop to actual murder. So they bring you into County or City.
Unless you bail out, you are going to sit until you see a judge. If it happened to be anytime after business hours, you are going to sit until at LEAST the next business day.
If it was a Friday, you're probably sitting through the weekend unless the jail starts filling up and you have a low-level enough offense that they release you with a court date so they can stuff worse people in the jail.
If it was a holiday weekend then you may be there 5-7 days because there are the usual getting arrested then all the drunk relatives and fist fights and DUIs and domestics that make holidays wonderful.
(Assuming the holiday is observed Monday you will probably be in until at LEAST Tuesday and maybe longer if they did a DUI checkpoint or one of the local huge families got in a drunken brawl and they had to roll up SWAT and the vans and arrest everyone).
Now, by "seeing a judge" I do not mean the Law and Order-style trial with the objections and DUN DUN and whatnot. I mean you may literally get to look at a judge and maybe say a few words while they decide if you are a threat to society.
By the way, hope you get an early slot, because there were several judges where we could tell when their blood sugar was getting low by how high the bail amounts were set.
Anyway, the judge may decide you are a fine upstanding person that will probably show up to court and release you on "personal recognizance" which basically means "you will probably show up to court and deal with this thing, off you go."
That does NOT mean that it's over or you're innocent. That just means they think you will show up and work through the process so it's not worth keeping you locked up.
On the other hand, if you were very naughty or the judge hadn't had lunch or the law specified a high bail, then you might be tossed back in county to await trial.
I mean, technically speaking you have seen a judge.
Technically speaking, you do have a way out by putting up a bail amount.
(The intended purpose of bail is, basically, you'll lose an amount of money that will hurt a lot if you miss court, so you won't miss court)
(It doesn't actually work that way but that's the idea)
If you can't pay it, that's not really anyone's problem but yours.
Working as intended, CANTFIX, WONTFIX.
of course, where they get you is that the court calendars are clogged to hell and back because we love arresting people and putting them through the system. It could be months before you get to the DUN DUN OBJECTION trial and there's preliminary hearings and motions and cancelations and actually getting to trial takes a LONG time in most places.
And it's usually not outright malice. It's usually not the prosecutor or judge personally hating you. Though sometimes they do and then God help you. Sometimes it's just the wheels of an uncaring machine grinding you up in it. What I found is that the system is largely indifferent, which is one of those things that's kind of like finding out there is no God or meaning in the universe, you know, where if there was a God and he was a bastard, well, at least he cared enough to be a bastard.
As I've said before on here, our local prosecutor was elected and savvy, so he'd let you sit a few days. Give you time to think. Because that's pretty much all you can do in jail, sit and think about how fucked you are. Ate you going to lose your job? (Most jobs I've had give you maybe 3 no call, no shows before firing you, if that). Are you going to lose your home? (Landlords hate when you don't pay rent, especially when you're in jail). What about your pets? Etc. Etc.
So when you're good and worked up, the prosecutor's office sends over a plea deal. Sign this paper and you can get out today with time served. Most people will realistically sign that paper so they can go try to salvage their lives. The prosecutor gets a case off his calendar and his conviction rate goes up (I think it was 96% but it's been a while).
And you get out of jail, hooray...wait, what was that about conviction?
Ah, yeah.
By signing that piece of paper, you pled guilty or no contest. As far as the courts, society, the criminal background check, etc. Are concerned, you did it.
"But I didn't, I just didn't want to sit in jail. My job/pets/house...!"
Oh well shouldn't have signed the paper saying you were guilty.
Best country in the world!
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 2:02 PM on April 26, 2021 [98 favorites]
Technically, yes, you do have a right to a speedy trial
But some of it comes down to capacity.
The US locks up a lot of people. A LOT of people. (We have the highest incarceration rate in the world by far).
Our courts still run on a government 9-5 Monday-Friday calendar.
I have mentioned, I think, that I worked as a bail bondsman for a while and that's the experience I'm drawing from here. So let's take an example.
Let's say you did something to annoy the cops enough to bring you in. Anything from, I dunno, getting too lippy during a traffic stop to actual murder. So they bring you into County or City.
Unless you bail out, you are going to sit until you see a judge. If it happened to be anytime after business hours, you are going to sit until at LEAST the next business day.
If it was a Friday, you're probably sitting through the weekend unless the jail starts filling up and you have a low-level enough offense that they release you with a court date so they can stuff worse people in the jail.
If it was a holiday weekend then you may be there 5-7 days because there are the usual getting arrested then all the drunk relatives and fist fights and DUIs and domestics that make holidays wonderful.
(Assuming the holiday is observed Monday you will probably be in until at LEAST Tuesday and maybe longer if they did a DUI checkpoint or one of the local huge families got in a drunken brawl and they had to roll up SWAT and the vans and arrest everyone).
Now, by "seeing a judge" I do not mean the Law and Order-style trial with the objections and DUN DUN and whatnot. I mean you may literally get to look at a judge and maybe say a few words while they decide if you are a threat to society.
By the way, hope you get an early slot, because there were several judges where we could tell when their blood sugar was getting low by how high the bail amounts were set.
Anyway, the judge may decide you are a fine upstanding person that will probably show up to court and release you on "personal recognizance" which basically means "you will probably show up to court and deal with this thing, off you go."
That does NOT mean that it's over or you're innocent. That just means they think you will show up and work through the process so it's not worth keeping you locked up.
On the other hand, if you were very naughty or the judge hadn't had lunch or the law specified a high bail, then you might be tossed back in county to await trial.
I mean, technically speaking you have seen a judge.
Technically speaking, you do have a way out by putting up a bail amount.
(The intended purpose of bail is, basically, you'll lose an amount of money that will hurt a lot if you miss court, so you won't miss court)
(It doesn't actually work that way but that's the idea)
If you can't pay it, that's not really anyone's problem but yours.
Working as intended, CANTFIX, WONTFIX.
of course, where they get you is that the court calendars are clogged to hell and back because we love arresting people and putting them through the system. It could be months before you get to the DUN DUN OBJECTION trial and there's preliminary hearings and motions and cancelations and actually getting to trial takes a LONG time in most places.
And it's usually not outright malice. It's usually not the prosecutor or judge personally hating you. Though sometimes they do and then God help you. Sometimes it's just the wheels of an uncaring machine grinding you up in it. What I found is that the system is largely indifferent, which is one of those things that's kind of like finding out there is no God or meaning in the universe, you know, where if there was a God and he was a bastard, well, at least he cared enough to be a bastard.
As I've said before on here, our local prosecutor was elected and savvy, so he'd let you sit a few days. Give you time to think. Because that's pretty much all you can do in jail, sit and think about how fucked you are. Ate you going to lose your job? (Most jobs I've had give you maybe 3 no call, no shows before firing you, if that). Are you going to lose your home? (Landlords hate when you don't pay rent, especially when you're in jail). What about your pets? Etc. Etc.
So when you're good and worked up, the prosecutor's office sends over a plea deal. Sign this paper and you can get out today with time served. Most people will realistically sign that paper so they can go try to salvage their lives. The prosecutor gets a case off his calendar and his conviction rate goes up (I think it was 96% but it's been a while).
And you get out of jail, hooray...wait, what was that about conviction?
Ah, yeah.
By signing that piece of paper, you pled guilty or no contest. As far as the courts, society, the criminal background check, etc. Are concerned, you did it.
"But I didn't, I just didn't want to sit in jail. My job/pets/house...!"
Oh well shouldn't have signed the paper saying you were guilty.
Best country in the world!
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 2:02 PM on April 26, 2021 [98 favorites]
Though in this particular case, the process I'm wondering about is letting people know they've been charged. She had somehow been charged without actually finding out that it had happened. If she had been in jail for several days, the silver lining is she probably would have noticed.
posted by RobotHero at 2:16 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by RobotHero at 2:16 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Best country in the world!I want to favorite this without feeling like I'm cheering it on.
posted by pulposus at 2:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Oh sometimes they mail notification of charges. Regular mail. Again, depends on jurisdiction. If you don't get it, oh well, you'll find out when you get picked up on the warrant. (Most warrants can be renewed forever without any issue).
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 2:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 2:19 PM on April 26, 2021 [3 favorites]
At least it wasn't a Tom Green movie. That would just be humiliating.
posted by Naberius at 2:24 PM on April 26, 2021
posted by Naberius at 2:24 PM on April 26, 2021
Oh Christ. I think I finally stopped having nightmares about Columbia House coming to arrest me for unpaid cassettes. This is 100% going to reignite that little corner of my nervous subconscious.
posted by thivaia at 2:29 PM on April 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 2:29 PM on April 26, 2021 [5 favorites]
That price would be for the entire season, maybe, or really the marked up fake price that videos stores would charge if you didn't rewind or return a video quickly enough. A single video was in the $15-20 range, same as a DVD today, but due to inflation, $15 then would be $25 in 2021 dollars.
You would think, but no. The tapes that were licensed for rental use were always more expensive than the consumer tapes you could buy at the retail store of your choice. In theory, a video store could rent out any tape they bought, but distributors also held back retail releases for a few months after they released tapes to video stores.
Early in the life of DVD, they'd release DVDs for retail at the same time the VHS was released to video stores. Not wanting to pay $100 for a VHS copy of films is why I bought a DVD player, in fact.
posted by wierdo at 2:37 PM on April 26, 2021 [26 favorites]
You would think, but no. The tapes that were licensed for rental use were always more expensive than the consumer tapes you could buy at the retail store of your choice. In theory, a video store could rent out any tape they bought, but distributors also held back retail releases for a few months after they released tapes to video stores.
Early in the life of DVD, they'd release DVDs for retail at the same time the VHS was released to video stores. Not wanting to pay $100 for a VHS copy of films is why I bought a DVD player, in fact.
posted by wierdo at 2:37 PM on April 26, 2021 [26 favorites]
Someone I know applied for a job recently and failed the background check, which came as a complete surprise to him. They wouldn't tell him why he failed, just that he did and that he couldn't have the job. I wonder if it was some bullcrap like this.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:38 PM on April 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:38 PM on April 26, 2021 [9 favorites]
Someone I know applied for a job recently and failed the background check, which came as a complete surprise to him. They wouldn't tell him why he failed, just that he did and that he couldn't have the job. I wonder if it was some bullcrap like this.
I was gonna go chat you on insta, corpse, but then I realized this might be useful to other people too.
If an employer is going to deny employment to someone because of a background check finding they have to give the candidate what's called a pre adverse action letter that gives the candidate a chance to review the background check results and contest anything they believe to be inaccurate or explain, for instance, the DUI that's on there from 2014. Technically you can only boot someone from job eligibility due to background results (the adverse action) AFTER this has been allowed to happen. I think it's an EEOC thing but I don't pay as much attention to the who said it part of my job so much as the we just have to do this part of my job.
Your friend should go back to the HR people at this place and demand a pre adverse action letter. And if he doesn't get one and the results of his background check he should report the employer. (Maybe to the EEOC? Maybe the DOL? I'm not 100% sure but "adverse action" is the key thing to google.) It's illegal what the employer did.
posted by phunniemee at 3:12 PM on April 26, 2021 [34 favorites]
I was gonna go chat you on insta, corpse, but then I realized this might be useful to other people too.
If an employer is going to deny employment to someone because of a background check finding they have to give the candidate what's called a pre adverse action letter that gives the candidate a chance to review the background check results and contest anything they believe to be inaccurate or explain, for instance, the DUI that's on there from 2014. Technically you can only boot someone from job eligibility due to background results (the adverse action) AFTER this has been allowed to happen. I think it's an EEOC thing but I don't pay as much attention to the who said it part of my job so much as the we just have to do this part of my job.
Your friend should go back to the HR people at this place and demand a pre adverse action letter. And if he doesn't get one and the results of his background check he should report the employer. (Maybe to the EEOC? Maybe the DOL? I'm not 100% sure but "adverse action" is the key thing to google.) It's illegal what the employer did.
posted by phunniemee at 3:12 PM on April 26, 2021 [34 favorites]
You know, there is likely a record of the conviction and of the prosecutor, so it's kind of a shame the journalists didn't bother to get the court docket or the prosecutor's side of the story on why a $60 VHS tape was a felony in their mind, considering the statute JanetLand found places the bar at $15,000. (Maybe the statute was rewritten but...) - posted by pwnguin
JanetLand's link reads "4. If the value of the property embezzled is Fifteen Thousand Dollars ($15,000.00) or more"
Moreover, not a conviction; there was a 21-year-old outstanding warrant for her arrest in Oklahoma, stemming from the "charges accusing her of felony embezzlement of rented property." Last Friday (two days after the case was dismissed), the Cleveland County Court Clerk was ordered to expunge the indictment; within the article, links to the court case return "CASE NOT FOUND" and "Case number is invalid or does not exist."
On April 21, prosecutors dropped the embezzlement charge against Ms. Davis in consideration of the “best interest of justice,” according to court documents. KOKH Fox 25 had contacted prosecutors the previous day about the charge. Greg Mashburn, the district attorney for Cleveland, Garvin and McClain Counties in Oklahoma, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Sunday. Tim D. Kuykendall, who was the district attorney when the warrant was issued, said the policy at the time was not to file charges unless the merchant had tried “everything possible,” such as phone calls and certified letters, to try and collect. He said his office also usually called and sent a letter before filing charges. (NYT)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:17 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
JanetLand's link reads "4. If the value of the property embezzled is Fifteen Thousand Dollars ($15,000.00) or more"
Moreover, not a conviction; there was a 21-year-old outstanding warrant for her arrest in Oklahoma, stemming from the "charges accusing her of felony embezzlement of rented property." Last Friday (two days after the case was dismissed), the Cleveland County Court Clerk was ordered to expunge the indictment; within the article, links to the court case return "CASE NOT FOUND" and "Case number is invalid or does not exist."
On April 21, prosecutors dropped the embezzlement charge against Ms. Davis in consideration of the “best interest of justice,” according to court documents. KOKH Fox 25 had contacted prosecutors the previous day about the charge. Greg Mashburn, the district attorney for Cleveland, Garvin and McClain Counties in Oklahoma, did not immediately respond to a request for comment on Sunday. Tim D. Kuykendall, who was the district attorney when the warrant was issued, said the policy at the time was not to file charges unless the merchant had tried “everything possible,” such as phone calls and certified letters, to try and collect. He said his office also usually called and sent a letter before filing charges. (NYT)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:17 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Embezzlement under Oklahoma law can involve not returning equipment after the end of a lease agreement.
Maybe not just Oklahoma. A little over a decade ago, I relocated 400 km in Ontario to move in with the woman I am now married to. I closed down my account — cable modem and landline — with my telecom provider (which was a tale unto itself). Briefly, a month or more after I had closed up my account and paid the final bill for the account, I received a letter from a collections agency saying that I had an overdue account which had not been paid, but I could offset this by returning the equipment I had from the provider, valued at a total of $9745.
This was rather a shock to me; a call to my old service provider confirmed that I had returned all the electronics, which was a phone and a modem, worth $99 and $119 respectively. The guy from the telecom company told me to ignore the collection agency letter and I did. I never heard anything more from the agency.
Now I wonder if there is a legal injunction somewhere in the bowels of a corporation or a government agency, waiting to snap down on me.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:37 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Maybe not just Oklahoma. A little over a decade ago, I relocated 400 km in Ontario to move in with the woman I am now married to. I closed down my account — cable modem and landline — with my telecom provider (which was a tale unto itself). Briefly, a month or more after I had closed up my account and paid the final bill for the account, I received a letter from a collections agency saying that I had an overdue account which had not been paid, but I could offset this by returning the equipment I had from the provider, valued at a total of $9745.
This was rather a shock to me; a call to my old service provider confirmed that I had returned all the electronics, which was a phone and a modem, worth $99 and $119 respectively. The guy from the telecom company told me to ignore the collection agency letter and I did. I never heard anything more from the agency.
Now I wonder if there is a legal injunction somewhere in the bowels of a corporation or a government agency, waiting to snap down on me.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:37 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
ED-209 : [menacingly] Please put down your weapon. You have twenty seconds to comply.
[Mr. Kinney drops the pistol on the floor. ED-209 advances, growling]
ED-209 : You now have fifteen seconds to comply.
ED-209 : You are in direct violation of Penal Code 1.13, Section 9.
ED-209 : You have five seconds to comply.
posted by stevil at 3:41 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
[Mr. Kinney drops the pistol on the floor. ED-209 advances, growling]
ED-209 : You now have fifteen seconds to comply.
ED-209 : You are in direct violation of Penal Code 1.13, Section 9.
ED-209 : You have five seconds to comply.
posted by stevil at 3:41 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
I read today that Sabrina was an Archie Comics spinoff. I always thought it was from Bewitched.
Understandable confusion. On Bewitched, Samantha had a groovy, free-spirited cousin named Serena who was also played by Elizabeth Montgomery but listed in the credits as "Pandora Spocks."
Cousins that look identical except for different hair, what in the?!!!
posted by chococat at 3:43 PM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
Understandable confusion. On Bewitched, Samantha had a groovy, free-spirited cousin named Serena who was also played by Elizabeth Montgomery but listed in the credits as "Pandora Spocks."
Cousins that look identical except for different hair, what in the?!!!
posted by chococat at 3:43 PM on April 26, 2021 [1 favorite]
So should I buy some Blockbuster stock or what? Whatever is left of the company must be worth like twenty trillion dollars if they can collect on all those old lost tapes and late fees.
Sure, yeah, it will mean the systemic economic collapse of the western world in a manner not completely unlike Douglas Adams' Shoe Event Horizon after a significant portion of the workforce is unable to find work due to being tape-hoarding felons but maybe it's time for me to get off my high horse, put my ethics and morals aside and think about my future.
posted by loquacious at 4:02 PM on April 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
Sure, yeah, it will mean the systemic economic collapse of the western world in a manner not completely unlike Douglas Adams' Shoe Event Horizon after a significant portion of the workforce is unable to find work due to being tape-hoarding felons but maybe it's time for me to get off my high horse, put my ethics and morals aside and think about my future.
posted by loquacious at 4:02 PM on April 26, 2021 [8 favorites]
or what
[stay the course, keep the horse (and isn't it a bike?)]
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:02 PM on April 26, 2021
[stay the course, keep the horse (and isn't it a bike?)]
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:02 PM on April 26, 2021
ED-209 : Please be kind, rewind
posted by thelonius at 5:08 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 5:08 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
Someone should be ridden out of town on a rail for this. How are people supposed to respect the law if this is what it does?
Discussion of criminal justice and prison reform often turns to drug convictions early. That is very important, but we need to look at what is wrong with us that we hand out felonies in general like Oprah giving away cars. Weren't they supposed to be for very serious crimes, that merit sanctions such as loss of civil rights even beyond a term of incarceration or fines? Here, how there is any criminal prosecution at all is beyond me.
posted by thelonius at 5:14 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Discussion of criminal justice and prison reform often turns to drug convictions early. That is very important, but we need to look at what is wrong with us that we hand out felonies in general like Oprah giving away cars. Weren't they supposed to be for very serious crimes, that merit sanctions such as loss of civil rights even beyond a term of incarceration or fines? Here, how there is any criminal prosecution at all is beyond me.
posted by thelonius at 5:14 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
> thelonius: "That is very important, but we need to look at what is wrong with us that we hand out felonies in general like Oprah giving away cars. Weren't they supposed to be for very serious crimes, that merit sanctions such as loss of civil rights even beyond a term of incarceration or fines?"
Coincidentally, blogger Kevin Drum has a post up today referencing this paper which tries to estimate the proportion of the adult US population with a felony conviction (i.e.: not just those presently incarcerated). Spoiler alert: as of 2010, they estimate this figure to be just over 8%; and for adult African-American men they estimate it at... 33% (!!!). Further, they estimate that these rates have not been stable but actually have grown around 2.5x since 1980.
posted by mhum at 5:46 PM on April 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Coincidentally, blogger Kevin Drum has a post up today referencing this paper which tries to estimate the proportion of the adult US population with a felony conviction (i.e.: not just those presently incarcerated). Spoiler alert: as of 2010, they estimate this figure to be just over 8%; and for adult African-American men they estimate it at... 33% (!!!). Further, they estimate that these rates have not been stable but actually have grown around 2.5x since 1980.
posted by mhum at 5:46 PM on April 26, 2021 [7 favorites]
Colorado did 'ban the box'. yay! job applications/interviews cannot ask if you've ever been convicted of a felony.
here's how it really works:
1) CO is an at-will state. anyone can be fired for any reason.
2) apply for a job (no box, sweet)
3) kill the interview and get hired.
4) "we run background checks on all our new employees"
5) they find your felony.
6) you're fired. did not pass background check.
so, as a mechanism to get the convicted back in the workforce, total. failure.
dunno about the appeals to failed background checks mentioned above - no one i'm aware of ever knew about/did that.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:48 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
here's how it really works:
1) CO is an at-will state. anyone can be fired for any reason.
2) apply for a job (no box, sweet)
3) kill the interview and get hired.
4) "we run background checks on all our new employees"
5) they find your felony.
6) you're fired. did not pass background check.
so, as a mechanism to get the convicted back in the workforce, total. failure.
dunno about the appeals to failed background checks mentioned above - no one i'm aware of ever knew about/did that.
posted by j_curiouser at 5:48 PM on April 26, 2021 [6 favorites]
At worst, assuming intent can be proven, the underlying facts should support misdemeanor conversion. Charging it as a felony in the first place was a gross overreach. That kind of shit happens all the time, though, because it makes the defendant more likely to accept a plea and gives the prosecutor room to bargain it down to something reasonable.
Prosecutors justify all this by saying that overcharging to coerce a plea is necessary because the court systems are overburdened and would be completely fucked if people were willing to roll the dice at trial as they might be for lesser charges. Never mind that the source of the problem is the criminalization of every fucking thing.
Further exacerbating the issue is that prosecutors are themselves judged by the wrong metric. They are judged by their win percentage, not by whether justice is being served. It's a lot easier to count.
It's not (or wouldn't be if merely being charged wasn't almost as damaging as an actual conviction to your employment prospects) entirely unreasonable that some double digit fraction of charges brought should result in a dismissal or not guilty verdict. The standard of evidence required to charge vs convict makes it so, even in the absence of the messy reality of figuring out what actually happened in any given case. That prosecutors are penalized for "losing" if they don't get a conviction one way or another means that a lot of charges that ought to be brought aren't and a lot of charges that should be dropped or never brought in the first place are rammed through because they're seen as an easy win either because of bad law or because the defendant is believed to be easy to bully into a guilty plea.
posted by wierdo at 5:52 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Prosecutors justify all this by saying that overcharging to coerce a plea is necessary because the court systems are overburdened and would be completely fucked if people were willing to roll the dice at trial as they might be for lesser charges. Never mind that the source of the problem is the criminalization of every fucking thing.
Further exacerbating the issue is that prosecutors are themselves judged by the wrong metric. They are judged by their win percentage, not by whether justice is being served. It's a lot easier to count.
It's not (or wouldn't be if merely being charged wasn't almost as damaging as an actual conviction to your employment prospects) entirely unreasonable that some double digit fraction of charges brought should result in a dismissal or not guilty verdict. The standard of evidence required to charge vs convict makes it so, even in the absence of the messy reality of figuring out what actually happened in any given case. That prosecutors are penalized for "losing" if they don't get a conviction one way or another means that a lot of charges that ought to be brought aren't and a lot of charges that should be dropped or never brought in the first place are rammed through because they're seen as an easy win either because of bad law or because the defendant is believed to be easy to bully into a guilty plea.
posted by wierdo at 5:52 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
Further exacerbating the issue is that prosecutors are themselves judged by the wrong metric. They are judged by their win percentage, not by whether justice is being served. It's a lot easier to count.
This is disgusting and makes a mockery of any "justice" system where it is the case.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:47 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
This is disgusting and makes a mockery of any "justice" system where it is the case.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:47 PM on April 26, 2021 [4 favorites]
I read today that Sabrina was an Archie Comics spinoff. I always thought it was from Bewitched.
You may also be thinking of Tabitha, which was a 1976 spinoff series about the daughter from Bewitched.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 PM on April 26, 2021
You may also be thinking of Tabitha, which was a 1976 spinoff series about the daughter from Bewitched.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:39 PM on April 26, 2021
And from the previous Tom Green movie example, this is not the sole case of this happening.
Based on how the system appears to be set up to work, the exceptional part is not being charged with a felony for failing to return a tape, it's that it took so long for them to find out they were charged.
posted by RobotHero at 9:36 AM on April 27, 2021
Based on how the system appears to be set up to work, the exceptional part is not being charged with a felony for failing to return a tape, it's that it took so long for them to find out they were charged.
posted by RobotHero at 9:36 AM on April 27, 2021
The entire US system of criminal "justice" is horribly broken, and maliciously and intentionally broken to advance white supremacy.
Sometimes white people get caught up in the horror show since the laws don't actually explicitly say they only apply to Black people, but the intent is clearly to put as many Black people in prison as possble.
When the difference between serving time for failing to return a video tape 20 years ago and going free is whether or not the story gets national attention, we've got a broken system. And we must never forget that it was not broken by accident. We have this because this is what most Americans voted for.
posted by sotonohito at 9:37 AM on April 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
Sometimes white people get caught up in the horror show since the laws don't actually explicitly say they only apply to Black people, but the intent is clearly to put as many Black people in prison as possble.
When the difference between serving time for failing to return a video tape 20 years ago and going free is whether or not the story gets national attention, we've got a broken system. And we must never forget that it was not broken by accident. We have this because this is what most Americans voted for.
posted by sotonohito at 9:37 AM on April 27, 2021 [6 favorites]
Charging it as a felony in the first place was a gross overreach. That kind of shit happens all the time, though, because it makes the defendant more likely to accept a plea and gives the prosecutor room to bargain it down to something reasonable.
Great points, and I would not be surprised if this is exactly what happened. Another huge huge problem.
Coercion to plea is a big thing in bail reform too, since defendants very often plead guilty for a sentence of time served, to crimes they are innocent of, or could mount a successful defense for, so they can just go home. Home to their lost job and possibly severed relationships and new work as a day laborer, since they have that conviction now.
posted by thelonius at 12:23 PM on April 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Great points, and I would not be surprised if this is exactly what happened. Another huge huge problem.
Coercion to plea is a big thing in bail reform too, since defendants very often plead guilty for a sentence of time served, to crimes they are innocent of, or could mount a successful defense for, so they can just go home. Home to their lost job and possibly severed relationships and new work as a day laborer, since they have that conviction now.
posted by thelonius at 12:23 PM on April 27, 2021 [4 favorites]
Ghostride The Whip: If it was a holiday weekend then you may be there 5-7 days because there are the usual getting arrested then all the drunk relatives and fist fights and DUIs and domestics that make holidays wonderful.
and if there is a pandemic and it's not safe to have in-person petit jury trials they just hold you
in jail
for THIRTEEN MONTHS
(and counting)
posted by capricorn at 2:24 PM on April 30, 2021
and if there is a pandemic and it's not safe to have in-person petit jury trials they just hold you
in jail
for THIRTEEN MONTHS
(and counting)
posted by capricorn at 2:24 PM on April 30, 2021
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posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 1:13 PM on April 26, 2021 [11 favorites]