Norsing around the Atlantic
October 21, 2021 5:32 AM Subscribe
While just published evidence based on the rings of trees felled by Norse people in Canada has largely confirmed what we already know about medieval sailing in the North Atlantic, two recent finds have changed what we thought we knew. A recently published paper by medievalist Paulo Chiesa shows that knowledge of Labrador had reached as far south as Genoa and Milan in the 14th Century. And in a recent paper by ecologist Pedro Raposeira, evidence has been found of human habitation in the Azores before the archipelago’s discovery by the Portuguese in 1427, backing up findings from 2015 of Norse visitations of the Azores and Madeira from an unlikely source, mouse DNA. Biologist Jeremy Searle talked about the biological evidence with archaeologist Cat Jarman on the Gone Medieval podcast.
The article about the tree ring study is open access.
posted by bleary at 6:20 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by bleary at 6:20 AM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Man, once you'd found your way to the Azores, why would you ever leave?
posted by aramaic at 7:09 AM on October 21, 2021 [15 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 7:09 AM on October 21, 2021 [15 favorites]
Man, once you'd found your way to the Azores, why would you ever leave?
Exactly what I am thinking. Can they have been wiped out by a tsunami or other volcanic activity?
posted by mumimor at 7:22 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm fascinated by the techniques used to figure this stuff out. Counting tree rings and relating that back to known world events, measuring pollen levels in core samples and comparing that to poop levels. The connections all seem so obscure -- like how did anyone think to do that in the first place. And I know the answer is 'by looking back at previous science and making incremental advancements' but when you're someone like me just reading about stuff for the first time, it all seems very 'and then a genius thought "what if we did this?"'
posted by jacquilynne at 7:26 AM on October 21, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 7:26 AM on October 21, 2021 [21 favorites]
Love this kind of thing, thank you for posting it.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:35 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:35 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
I spent some time tooling around the Azores in the 1980s looking for domestic cats and noting their coat colours. It was the test of a hypothesis that cats arrived in the New World with humans; went forth and multiplied and established a gene frequency spectrum which was hard to shift by later arrivals. We'd shown that the cats on St Pierre et Miquelon, the French department South of Newfoundland, were exactly the same profile as those in Bordeaux and the Dordogne. With some vigorous arm waving, a case could be made that NYC cats resembled those of Amsterdam and Rotterdam and were different from New England. The cats of the Azores looked like mainland Portuguese cats and missed the characteristic "Viking Profile" of higher-than-expected pure white and orange/tortie cats. Such cats are found across Shetland and Orkney and the first research grant I ever landed [£200!] was to classify the cats of Donegal for evidence of Viking settlement there. Equivocal evidence.
A couple of my pals made similar arguments for "Possible Norse origin for two Northeastern United States cat populations"
The Azores, though - in a different life, I would have stayed: magical.
posted by BobTheScientist at 7:37 AM on October 21, 2021 [83 favorites]
A couple of my pals made similar arguments for "Possible Norse origin for two Northeastern United States cat populations"
The Azores, though - in a different life, I would have stayed: magical.
posted by BobTheScientist at 7:37 AM on October 21, 2021 [83 favorites]
I spent some time tooling around the Azores in the 1980s looking for domestic cats and noting their coat colours.
Movie adaptation, please
posted by elkevelvet at 8:07 AM on October 21, 2021 [28 favorites]
Movie adaptation, please
posted by elkevelvet at 8:07 AM on October 21, 2021 [28 favorites]
@BobTheScientist
Do you have citations (or useful search keywords) for this research?
posted by cheshyre at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2021
Do you have citations (or useful search keywords) for this research?
posted by cheshyre at 8:28 AM on October 21, 2021
I am intrigued by the Gone Medieval podcast referenced in the OP and have subscribed. thanks!
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 8:32 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Measured Out my Life in Coffeespoons at 8:32 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
As for why they left the Azores, my understanding is that the Vikings were all about trade (in contrast to eg Polynesians) and it is a long way from the Azores to the Vikings main trade routes. So if as a result of climate changes or other issues the settlement in the Azores was out of the loop perhaps then the settlers might have either left or died out. Some early modern European settlements in the Americas died out for kind of similar reasons.
posted by plonkee at 8:44 AM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 8:44 AM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
...and then a genius thought "what if we did this?"
The experience is actually this. Someone sits with the measurements and papers from other groups for quite a while trying to fit it all together, to make sense of it. They fret over it, they talk with colleagues about it, they dream about it. They get an idea. They try it. It doesn't work, or it only partially works. They chase blind alleys for a while. Or maybe they don't. Then they find the puzzle piece that fits and brings things together. They and their team do a major amount of work. Then they analyze and compile the work, then publish (and explain to a couple of reviewers who maybe understood it, or maybe did not). The paper is short and succinct, because it has to be, and leaves out 90% of the journey.
There is that moment of "what if..." in the middle of all that though. It happens differently for different people---mine often happen when I'm talking it out with someone, others in quiet study, others when they are doing something else. It's often a moment for the younger people who have the time to pour over data and papers (and aren't busy running the group or out looking for funding to keep all the plates spinning or occupied with "other duties"). But the moment, for me at least, is pretty memorable. I would disagree mostly about the genius part and replace it with a lot of work though.
posted by bonehead at 8:50 AM on October 21, 2021 [18 favorites]
The experience is actually this. Someone sits with the measurements and papers from other groups for quite a while trying to fit it all together, to make sense of it. They fret over it, they talk with colleagues about it, they dream about it. They get an idea. They try it. It doesn't work, or it only partially works. They chase blind alleys for a while. Or maybe they don't. Then they find the puzzle piece that fits and brings things together. They and their team do a major amount of work. Then they analyze and compile the work, then publish (and explain to a couple of reviewers who maybe understood it, or maybe did not). The paper is short and succinct, because it has to be, and leaves out 90% of the journey.
There is that moment of "what if..." in the middle of all that though. It happens differently for different people---mine often happen when I'm talking it out with someone, others in quiet study, others when they are doing something else. It's often a moment for the younger people who have the time to pour over data and papers (and aren't busy running the group or out looking for funding to keep all the plates spinning or occupied with "other duties"). But the moment, for me at least, is pretty memorable. I would disagree mostly about the genius part and replace it with a lot of work though.
posted by bonehead at 8:50 AM on October 21, 2021 [18 favorites]
The Maritimes are where I am a Viking.
posted by srboisvert at 8:58 AM on October 21, 2021 [12 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 8:58 AM on October 21, 2021 [12 favorites]
I was thinking about the Pacific islanders in regards to the Viking visiting/settling the Azores. The polynesians had sophisticated navigation technology that allowed them to find mid-ocean islands and sustain inter-island travel. Did the viking have anywhere near the level of navigational skill that the Pacific islanders possesed? Is there enough cultural continuity that we know Viking navigational techniques?
posted by rdr at 9:00 AM on October 21, 2021
posted by rdr at 9:00 AM on October 21, 2021
What was the tree situation in the Azores at the time? I don't know if it is still the conventional wisdom, but I recall being taught that the Vikings were in Canada looking for trees, since their settlements in Greenland and Iceland were rather short on shipbuilding quality timber. So the Azores might not have been prioritized if the resources they were looking for weren't there. On the other hand, they did colonize Greenland, which even in the warm period was not exactly brimming with trees or other resources!
posted by tavella at 9:15 AM on October 21, 2021
posted by tavella at 9:15 AM on October 21, 2021
brimming with trees, bristling with fresh water, bustling with red-throated loons
posted by elkevelvet at 9:41 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 9:41 AM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
You can read about Viking navigation at the Vikingship museum site (scroll down). Since they crossed the Atlantic several times, were able to find Iceland, Greenland, the Faeroes, the Orkneys, the Shetlands and Ireland again and again, as well as all the other places they traveled to, including Africa and Constantinople, I think they managed just fine.
The Vikings were about trade, which is actually mentioned in the article, but they were also farmers. The people who settled in Greenland were just settlers, who had no plans of going on raids or trading much anywhere. The landscape is a bit harsh, but not very different from Iceland, where they came from, and they stayed on for centuries. When Hans Egede went to Greenland, his intention was not originally to convert Inuit, but to tell the presumably Catholic Greenlanders about the reformation and Luther's teachings. When he got there, the Norse population had died out, but they lived there for 400 years, and regularly communicated with other Scandinavians, and maybe Portuguese fishermen.
posted by mumimor at 9:59 AM on October 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
The Vikings were about trade, which is actually mentioned in the article, but they were also farmers. The people who settled in Greenland were just settlers, who had no plans of going on raids or trading much anywhere. The landscape is a bit harsh, but not very different from Iceland, where they came from, and they stayed on for centuries. When Hans Egede went to Greenland, his intention was not originally to convert Inuit, but to tell the presumably Catholic Greenlanders about the reformation and Luther's teachings. When he got there, the Norse population had died out, but they lived there for 400 years, and regularly communicated with other Scandinavians, and maybe Portuguese fishermen.
posted by mumimor at 9:59 AM on October 21, 2021 [11 favorites]
One piece of possible Viking navigation technology might have been a "sunstone", capable of picking out the direction of the sun on overcast days.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:08 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:08 AM on October 21, 2021 [5 favorites]
Fascinating story, thanks for posting. It’s moving, viscerally, to ponder how much humanity has happened before Us, and how little we know of it.
Also, perhaps the song needs an update:
We come to the land of the ice and snow
With the midday sun where puffins go
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:19 AM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Also, perhaps the song needs an update:
We come to the land of the ice and snow
With the midday sun where puffins go
posted by armoir from antproof case at 10:19 AM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Also, there are several regions across the globe where people orient themselves according to cardinal directions rather than their bodies. As in: can you pass me that plate to the north of you? rather than can you pass me that plate to your left?. It was very normal here (in North Jutland) when I was young, and you sort of grew into it, but today it has been out-civilized. If you really do this, you can do it in a dark, closed room. I don't think I could do that, but I have a pretty good sense of direction even on a cloudy night, just out of spending time with old people who knew no other way.
posted by mumimor at 10:22 AM on October 21, 2021 [21 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 10:22 AM on October 21, 2021 [21 favorites]
The Maritimes are where I am a Viking.
This is your friendly reminder that Newfoundland is not part of the Maritimes.
posted by oulipian at 10:22 AM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
This is your friendly reminder that Newfoundland is not part of the Maritimes.
posted by oulipian at 10:22 AM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
Heck, it's a miracle that it's a part of Canada.
posted by y2karl at 11:15 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 11:15 AM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Man, once you'd found your way to the Azores, why would you ever leave?
People, man. Sometimes you just can't handle the neighbors, so you move.
posted by Ickster at 11:45 AM on October 21, 2021
People, man. Sometimes you just can't handle the neighbors, so you move.
posted by Ickster at 11:45 AM on October 21, 2021
Interesting that the earlier settlers brought ruminants with them but there weren't any left when the Portuguese started settling the islands. Cows, goats, and sheep all feralize well. I wonder if they packed up and left tidily with their animals, or if they had a famine that resulted in them eating everything.
posted by tavella at 12:03 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:03 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Plus, there's evidence from four different islands of the archipelago, across 5-600 years. It's not entirely clear to me how long the settlement spike lasted in each case and I don't have access to the full paper, so it could represent four colonization attempts well enough organized to bring livestock with them or one attempt that spread to multiple islands, but either way I'm genuinely surprised that it apparently failed entirely in such a temperate and friendly environment. Especially with marine resources to back up farming, making them less vulnerable to famine.
The last mentioned date is a little before the Black Death hit Europe, so maybe they were especially badly hit? Though again I'd rather expect some feral livestock in that case. Or perhaps Viking slave raids, though the last date 1300 is a bit after that period I think?
posted by tavella at 12:40 PM on October 21, 2021
The last mentioned date is a little before the Black Death hit Europe, so maybe they were especially badly hit? Though again I'd rather expect some feral livestock in that case. Or perhaps Viking slave raids, though the last date 1300 is a bit after that period I think?
posted by tavella at 12:40 PM on October 21, 2021
Man, once you'd found your way to the Azores, why would you ever leave?
Lack of award-winning fjords.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2021 [9 favorites]
Lack of award-winning fjords.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2021 [9 favorites]
tavella: I'm genuinely surprised that it apparently failed entirely in such a temperate and friendly environment. Especially with marine resources to back up farming, making them less vulnerable to famine.
The Norse had many seasonal camps. For instance, the latest archeological evidence suggests that the Norse who first came to Iceland in the 9th Century were there to hunt walruses, and that only later did people move there to settle. So it could have been that if there were Norse people on the Azores and Madeira for many years, they only stayed for a short while, and once they had what they came for, they returned home.
posted by Kattullus at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Norse had many seasonal camps. For instance, the latest archeological evidence suggests that the Norse who first came to Iceland in the 9th Century were there to hunt walruses, and that only later did people move there to settle. So it could have been that if there were Norse people on the Azores and Madeira for many years, they only stayed for a short while, and once they had what they came for, they returned home.
posted by Kattullus at 12:51 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Tavella, fwiw when I was in the Faroes a couple years ago they still had wood and turf buildings that were standing and built with "viking proofing" in mind, which I thought was an interesting data point.
The science going on above (and done by bobthescientist!) is cool. It's a shame so much of it is rediscovering information that used to exist in the oral histories but was lost. Here in Canada, the destruction of indigenous knowledge is a constant challenge.
posted by LegallyBread at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
The science going on above (and done by bobthescientist!) is cool. It's a shame so much of it is rediscovering information that used to exist in the oral histories but was lost. Here in Canada, the destruction of indigenous knowledge is a constant challenge.
posted by LegallyBread at 12:53 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
"...keep your eye clear
as the bleb of the icicle,
trust the feel of what nubbed treasure
your hands have known.'"
-Seamus Heaney. North.
posted by clavdivs at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
as the bleb of the icicle,
trust the feel of what nubbed treasure
your hands have known.'"
-Seamus Heaney. North.
posted by clavdivs at 12:54 PM on October 21, 2021 [4 favorites]
so does bobthescientist have the coolest job ever???
also, yay!! this is really fascinating and I look forward to doing a deep dive once I give up on trying to work today.
posted by supermedusa at 1:27 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
also, yay!! this is really fascinating and I look forward to doing a deep dive once I give up on trying to work today.
posted by supermedusa at 1:27 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
The Norse had many seasonal camps.
Did they bring domestic animals and clear land for crops, though? They were growing rye at least. Seasonal fishing or logging camps wouldn't surprise me at all, but once you start improving land for crops and have gone to the trouble of transporting herd animals there, I'd think you'd form a colony despite yourself.
Does anyone have access to the full paper? Is there any information about the span of settlement on each island?
posted by tavella at 1:34 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
Did they bring domestic animals and clear land for crops, though? They were growing rye at least. Seasonal fishing or logging camps wouldn't surprise me at all, but once you start improving land for crops and have gone to the trouble of transporting herd animals there, I'd think you'd form a colony despite yourself.
Does anyone have access to the full paper? Is there any information about the span of settlement on each island?
posted by tavella at 1:34 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
srboisvert: "The Maritimes are where I am a Viking."
I picture two Norsemen lying in hammocks by the beach sipping fruity drinks and arguing about whether they're literal vikings or not
posted by signal at 1:38 PM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
I picture two Norsemen lying in hammocks by the beach sipping fruity drinks and arguing about whether they're literal vikings or not
posted by signal at 1:38 PM on October 21, 2021 [6 favorites]
They were only littoral Vikings, I’m afraid.
posted by jamjam at 1:50 PM on October 21, 2021 [17 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 1:50 PM on October 21, 2021 [17 favorites]
I'm fascinated by the techniques used to figure this stuff out. Counting tree rings and relating that back to known world events, measuring pollen levels in core samples and comparing that to poop levels.
Dendrochronology -- dating via tree rings -- is indeed fascinating! We now have a continuous record of tree rings, for the northern hemisphere, at least, going back over 13,000 years.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:23 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Dendrochronology -- dating via tree rings -- is indeed fascinating! We now have a continuous record of tree rings, for the northern hemisphere, at least, going back over 13,000 years.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:23 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Trees are really good to us on so many levels.
posted by bleep at 2:40 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 2:40 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
^ full agreement. This also reads like the caption to a New Yorker cartoon.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:10 PM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 3:10 PM on October 21, 2021 [2 favorites]
So while the paper is locked down, there's an appendix with supporting data that is downloadable. If you look at page 19, it has the data for Lake Peixinho. There's the initial appearance at 700, and you can see the forest declining. But then at around 1150, there's 200 of years of what looks like pretty intensive habitation. Greater forest decline, big ruminant and human feces footprints, a big spike in rye growing. That doesn't look like a transitory habitation. Page 22 has San Miguel island, Lake Azul, and that has a rye footprint to past 1350, less than 100 years before it was re-colonized by the Portuguese.
I am seriously wondering if it was the Black Death. Obviously it wouldn't wipe them all out, but it could have made the place no longer sustainable if they lost too many of their specialists, and they could have packed up and returned to their source land. But if they were Norse... wouldn't there have been records of the Norwegian church sending bishops and the like, as with Greenland?
posted by tavella at 7:17 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
I am seriously wondering if it was the Black Death. Obviously it wouldn't wipe them all out, but it could have made the place no longer sustainable if they lost too many of their specialists, and they could have packed up and returned to their source land. But if they were Norse... wouldn't there have been records of the Norwegian church sending bishops and the like, as with Greenland?
posted by tavella at 7:17 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
We'll ride their ships to new lands
Make our nests, squeak and run
Mozzarella, I am coming
posted by house-goblin at 7:18 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
Make our nests, squeak and run
Mozzarella, I am coming
posted by house-goblin at 7:18 PM on October 21, 2021 [3 favorites]
road ashore, unseen eyes, don't an axe this size..maybe we should stop, lay out the runes after all it's so nice here let's hear all the tunes
posted by clavdivs at 9:18 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 9:18 PM on October 21, 2021 [1 favorite]
But if they were Norse... wouldn't there have been records of the Norwegian church sending bishops and the like, as with Greenland?
The eldest written sources from the Scandinavian countries are from the 12-13th century, and they are not direct sources like letters or church annals, they are the sagas and equivalent histories, written after the actual Viking Age. What we know about the Vikings from their own age is from other sources. (Well there are of course rune inscriptions. But they rarely say much before the 12th century either).
posted by mumimor at 12:53 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
The eldest written sources from the Scandinavian countries are from the 12-13th century, and they are not direct sources like letters or church annals, they are the sagas and equivalent histories, written after the actual Viking Age. What we know about the Vikings from their own age is from other sources. (Well there are of course rune inscriptions. But they rarely say much before the 12th century either).
posted by mumimor at 12:53 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Page 22 has San Miguel island, Lake Azul, and that has a rye footprint to past 1350, less than 100 years before it was re-colonized by the Portuguese.
It slightly surprises me that the Portuguese didn't find note any evidence of previous inhabitants. Do things really grow over that quickly, or did the inhabitants pack things up when they left? (Or did the Portuguese make assumptions and not look for contradictory evidence?)
posted by plonkee at 1:49 AM on October 22, 2021
It slightly surprises me that the Portuguese didn't find note any evidence of previous inhabitants. Do things really grow over that quickly, or did the inhabitants pack things up when they left? (Or did the Portuguese make assumptions and not look for contradictory evidence?)
posted by plonkee at 1:49 AM on October 22, 2021
In the Gone Medieval podcast in the post the guest speculates that in the competition between emerging european empires it was valuable to be the first nation to "discover" a place. Therefore, there wasn't a strong incentive to investigate anything that contradicted that narrative.
posted by rdr at 6:50 AM on October 22, 2021 [6 favorites]
posted by rdr at 6:50 AM on October 22, 2021 [6 favorites]
I finally listened to the Gone Medieval podcast and learnt that all the mice on Madeira are Danish mice. Being Danish, I found that interesting. Those Vikings really did some traveling.
Anyways, I once went to an Europa Nostra conference about Atlantic culture, and they pointed out there is one consistent culture all the way from Nordkap to the Azores. Back then, more than ten years ago, the researchers from several fields just assumed it was consistent because of trade, conditions and climate. Now I wonder wether it is actually a result of Viking colonization.
The Atlantic culture, like the East Mediterranean culture is not really a sound culture in terms of sustainability*, and the conference was partially about the balance of retaining cultural remains vs rebuilding the original cold rainforests, though this was way before a broader understanding of the importance of rainforests happened.
* they are surprisingly similar, in that they are based on sheep/goats and fishing along with foraging.
posted by mumimor at 10:47 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
Anyways, I once went to an Europa Nostra conference about Atlantic culture, and they pointed out there is one consistent culture all the way from Nordkap to the Azores. Back then, more than ten years ago, the researchers from several fields just assumed it was consistent because of trade, conditions and climate. Now I wonder wether it is actually a result of Viking colonization.
The Atlantic culture, like the East Mediterranean culture is not really a sound culture in terms of sustainability*, and the conference was partially about the balance of retaining cultural remains vs rebuilding the original cold rainforests, though this was way before a broader understanding of the importance of rainforests happened.
* they are surprisingly similar, in that they are based on sheep/goats and fishing along with foraging.
posted by mumimor at 10:47 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
The eldest written sources from the Scandinavian countries are from the 12-13th century, and they are not direct sources like letters or church annals, they are the sagas and equivalent histories, written after the actual Viking Age.
It looks like there were a fair number of ecclesiastical records, though? This history of the Greenland Church talks about records of bishops being set, and how in 1274 there was a tithe set up for all of the places covered by the Catholic Church and an exchange of letters over what Greenland would pay. That's right in the period of intense habitation of the islands, going by the footprints in the chemical record: 1150-1350. And even if they fell out of touch with Greenland, they were still quite aware of it, enough for Protestant clerics to travel there to proselytize several hundred years later. It's hard to believe the church and state wouldn't care about this other faraway colony being properly religious. Or that they'd just forget about it entirely.
I guess unless this was a group of people that were deliberately avoiding Christianity?
posted by tavella at 2:19 PM on October 22, 2021
It looks like there were a fair number of ecclesiastical records, though? This history of the Greenland Church talks about records of bishops being set, and how in 1274 there was a tithe set up for all of the places covered by the Catholic Church and an exchange of letters over what Greenland would pay. That's right in the period of intense habitation of the islands, going by the footprints in the chemical record: 1150-1350. And even if they fell out of touch with Greenland, they were still quite aware of it, enough for Protestant clerics to travel there to proselytize several hundred years later. It's hard to believe the church and state wouldn't care about this other faraway colony being properly religious. Or that they'd just forget about it entirely.
I guess unless this was a group of people that were deliberately avoiding Christianity?
posted by tavella at 2:19 PM on October 22, 2021
Cool link, tavella!
There might be stuff somewhere in the Vatican that is as yet unknown, but the oldest known documents in Scandinavia are the Islandic manuscripts, which are not just the sagas, but a lot of different stuff that were held until the 1960s in Copenhagen, and then divided between Iceland and Denmark.
So to my knowledge, it is not like the Church has preserved everything from the beginning of Christianity in Norway and onwards. We don't have many written sources about the huge church-building projects in Scandinavia in the early Middle Ages, which was in every way a much larger endeavor than the Atlantic colonies and about at the same time. The Nidaros Cathedral, which is the seat of the archbishop of Norway and the Atlantic colonies, burnt several times during the Middle Ages.
Anyway, it seems colonies in the Azores or in Madeira (!) would have been established before Christianity arrived in Scandinavia and they may well have lost any sense of fealty to Norway's or Denmark's official governments. Look at the Normans. We don't think of them as Vikings at all when they invaded England in 1066, even though they only settled in what we now call France in the 10th century, and maintained social and cultural relations to the home regions. I'm just guessing, but I suspect the North Atlantic colonies remained colonies because they weren't really sustainable without some level of support from Scandinavia. The linked article mentions the issue of bread and wine for the Lord's Supper. Settlements in the Mid-Atlantic would have been easily self-sustainable.
posted by mumimor at 3:45 PM on October 22, 2021
There might be stuff somewhere in the Vatican that is as yet unknown, but the oldest known documents in Scandinavia are the Islandic manuscripts, which are not just the sagas, but a lot of different stuff that were held until the 1960s in Copenhagen, and then divided between Iceland and Denmark.
So to my knowledge, it is not like the Church has preserved everything from the beginning of Christianity in Norway and onwards. We don't have many written sources about the huge church-building projects in Scandinavia in the early Middle Ages, which was in every way a much larger endeavor than the Atlantic colonies and about at the same time. The Nidaros Cathedral, which is the seat of the archbishop of Norway and the Atlantic colonies, burnt several times during the Middle Ages.
Anyway, it seems colonies in the Azores or in Madeira (!) would have been established before Christianity arrived in Scandinavia and they may well have lost any sense of fealty to Norway's or Denmark's official governments. Look at the Normans. We don't think of them as Vikings at all when they invaded England in 1066, even though they only settled in what we now call France in the 10th century, and maintained social and cultural relations to the home regions. I'm just guessing, but I suspect the North Atlantic colonies remained colonies because they weren't really sustainable without some level of support from Scandinavia. The linked article mentions the issue of bread and wine for the Lord's Supper. Settlements in the Mid-Atlantic would have been easily self-sustainable.
posted by mumimor at 3:45 PM on October 22, 2021
One thing occurred to me as I was falling asleep last night.
In one of the links, I think the interview with Prof. Searle, it’s mentioned that a change in the prevailing winds made it feasible for the Portuguese to visit the Azores and Madeira. Before that the prevailing winds were such that it was much easier to come from the north.
So if the Norse visitations were seasonal, it makes sense that they would’ve ended when the winds shifted.
posted by Kattullus at 10:42 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
In one of the links, I think the interview with Prof. Searle, it’s mentioned that a change in the prevailing winds made it feasible for the Portuguese to visit the Azores and Madeira. Before that the prevailing winds were such that it was much easier to come from the north.
So if the Norse visitations were seasonal, it makes sense that they would’ve ended when the winds shifted.
posted by Kattullus at 10:42 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
Raposeiro’s conclusions are also supported by research by evolutionary biologist Jeremy Searle of Cornell University, who has also argued that Vikings made it to the Azores, though his work is based on a very different biological source. It has focused on the mouse.
posted by adamvasco at 8:11 AM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 8:11 AM on October 31, 2021 [1 favorite]
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Eponysterical
posted by acb at 5:39 AM on October 21, 2021 [9 favorites]