Southwest Fails To Crew Schedule
December 28, 2022 10:53 AM Subscribe
The holiday travel season saw a polar vortex that caused American carriers to struggle, but for Southwest Airlines, the initial issues of the season quickly compounded into a cascade failure that has left many travelers stranded across the US even as the weather has improved over much of the country.
While the blizzard may be the inciting incident, the cascade failure at Southwest is a clear product of structural failure, with illness and labor woes curtailing the airline's operation at Denver International (and the executives responding in a horrific manner, as well as Southwest's crew management system breaking under the strain of rescheduling (bringing to mind a similar failure at Christmas nearly two decades prior.)
While the blizzard may be the inciting incident, the cascade failure at Southwest is a clear product of structural failure, with illness and labor woes curtailing the airline's operation at Denver International (and the executives responding in a horrific manner, as well as Southwest's crew management system breaking under the strain of rescheduling (bringing to mind a similar failure at Christmas nearly two decades prior.)
Corporate lessons aren't learned until they lose the company money/create a PR disaster like this. I guarantee you there will turn out to have been some team inside Southwest screaming about the problems with the system for years that was simply ignored by management because it would have been expensive to fix and things were rolling along at the time just fine.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:07 AM on December 28, 2022 [59 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:07 AM on December 28, 2022 [59 favorites]
I was a Southwest passenger and one of the things that made me the angriest when I read some of the news about this disaster was the PR pandering that it was all just because of bad luck with the weather.
The weather is the weather, but many of the news articles I've seen so far have left out the fact that:
- The Southwest website was down FOR DAYS (so you could not rebook or cancel your own flight)
- The texting/alert/flight board systems broke down FOR DAYS (so people were having flights cancelled or changed without getting any alert or notice from Southwest - what the Southwest app showed was often dramatically different than the flight board in the airport)
- The call center systems broke down FOR DAYS (not only were there huge waits to talk to anyone, but the music/sound system wasn't working and it would automatically hang up on you after 90 minutes)
- The system the ticketing agents use broke down FOR DAYS so they could no longer offer rebookings or any other information. All they could do was add your cancellation on transfer flights
- There was no system of any kind to organize anything. Want to figure out how to get your luggage? Wait in a 2+ hour line. People behind me were trying to cancel their seats on a flight where other people were desperately trying to fly standby and planes ended up leaving with seats unfilled because the people who weren't on the plane were stuck in line to let Southwest know they wouldn't be on the plane.
Literally the only way to find out what was going on or to change anything was waiting in a huge line to talk to the poor ticket agents (who were amazingly kind and helpful over the several days I was in the airport!).
The headlines should all have the photo, names, and titles of all of the Southwest C-Suite and should really be reporting from the angle that capitalism enabled by a few highly paid individuals killed Christmas for millions of families this year.
posted by forkisbetter at 11:10 AM on December 28, 2022 [102 favorites]
The weather is the weather, but many of the news articles I've seen so far have left out the fact that:
- The Southwest website was down FOR DAYS (so you could not rebook or cancel your own flight)
- The texting/alert/flight board systems broke down FOR DAYS (so people were having flights cancelled or changed without getting any alert or notice from Southwest - what the Southwest app showed was often dramatically different than the flight board in the airport)
- The call center systems broke down FOR DAYS (not only were there huge waits to talk to anyone, but the music/sound system wasn't working and it would automatically hang up on you after 90 minutes)
- The system the ticketing agents use broke down FOR DAYS so they could no longer offer rebookings or any other information. All they could do was add your cancellation on transfer flights
- There was no system of any kind to organize anything. Want to figure out how to get your luggage? Wait in a 2+ hour line. People behind me were trying to cancel their seats on a flight where other people were desperately trying to fly standby and planes ended up leaving with seats unfilled because the people who weren't on the plane were stuck in line to let Southwest know they wouldn't be on the plane.
Literally the only way to find out what was going on or to change anything was waiting in a huge line to talk to the poor ticket agents (who were amazingly kind and helpful over the several days I was in the airport!).
The headlines should all have the photo, names, and titles of all of the Southwest C-Suite and should really be reporting from the angle that capitalism enabled by a few highly paid individuals killed Christmas for millions of families this year.
posted by forkisbetter at 11:10 AM on December 28, 2022 [102 favorites]
It's not just expensive to fix things, it's also risky to take something that mostly works and is critical to your business and replace it or even change it at all. I mean probably the thing to do is to get it all ready for such a transition during a low-travel, low weather-cancellation month, but even then you risk causing a smaller version of the problem they're having now.
ETA: It's worth that risk, but it's easy to see how it's unpalatable for any one person to champion that cause.
posted by aubilenon at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
ETA: It's worth that risk, but it's easy to see how it's unpalatable for any one person to champion that cause.
posted by aubilenon at 11:11 AM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
When people around me mention this situation, I've decided to use the occasion to talk about how we should nationalize the airlines.
posted by box at 11:12 AM on December 28, 2022 [32 favorites]
posted by box at 11:12 AM on December 28, 2022 [32 favorites]
The only surprising thing about SW’s recent breakdown is that its many, many, MANY previous breakdowns hadn’t led to the right steps being taken to prevent or ameliorate this one. Whether it’s winter weather, or the heat wave of 2021, or repeated breakdowns in the same IT infrastructure, they seem unable to get ahead of the ball. Or is it unwilling? People keep shopping with them, i suppose many in management must think that means it’s best to continue doing what they’re doing, regardless of how many people get screwed as a result.
Anyway, thanks for the post, and the focus on the crew management system issues.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:12 AM on December 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Anyway, thanks for the post, and the focus on the crew management system issues.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:12 AM on December 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
My goodness, there are a lot of companies out there that can't tell the difference between inefficiencies and safety margins these days.
Corporate lessons aren't learned until they lose the company money/create a PR disaster like this.
These corporate lessons will never be learned. No organization that measures success in terms of shareholder value can do anything except collapse, it's just a question of when.
posted by mhoye at 11:14 AM on December 28, 2022 [41 favorites]
Corporate lessons aren't learned until they lose the company money/create a PR disaster like this.
These corporate lessons will never be learned. No organization that measures success in terms of shareholder value can do anything except collapse, it's just a question of when.
posted by mhoye at 11:14 AM on December 28, 2022 [41 favorites]
Looks like Southwest has now moved on to calling the cops to arrest passengers for trespassing who just had their tickets cancelled
posted by haileris23 at 11:15 AM on December 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by haileris23 at 11:15 AM on December 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
Not only are they requiring a doctor's note, but telemedicine appointments aren't accepted? I'm getting over some awful URI+Sinus infection, and the doctor didn't even want me to come in, saying a phone visit was sufficient based on my symptoms.
I'm wondering if I had needed a note if the doctor would have even specified the type of appointment when writing the note. I've needed a note one time, and the doc just filled out something on letterhead, or maybe even their script pad? It's been years and I was sick, so my memory is fuzzy.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:15 AM on December 28, 2022
I'm wondering if I had needed a note if the doctor would have even specified the type of appointment when writing the note. I've needed a note one time, and the doc just filled out something on letterhead, or maybe even their script pad? It's been years and I was sick, so my memory is fuzzy.
posted by ghost phoneme at 11:15 AM on December 28, 2022
BTW, the "breaking under the strain" touches on this a little, but from what I've read the root of the problem is that Southwest's antiquated crew management system tracks flights, not actual people.
So if, say, there's a flight scheduled to leave NYC at 9:00am and land in Chicago at 12:00pm, then the system will show that flight crew leaving and arriving at those times and places. But the system can't account for delays, cancellations, shift swaps, etc; these all have to be entered manually. And there's also no way to contact the individual crew members within the system, you have to actually call and ask them where they are and what they're doing. Otherwise the system will still show that crew as being in Chicago at 12:00pm.
You can see how this quickly snowballs into absolute chaos, which is what happened. And now they're having to literally call every individual crew member and figure out what the hell is going on, or crew members have to call in themselves, which means the company phone system is in perpetual gridlock.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:25 AM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
So if, say, there's a flight scheduled to leave NYC at 9:00am and land in Chicago at 12:00pm, then the system will show that flight crew leaving and arriving at those times and places. But the system can't account for delays, cancellations, shift swaps, etc; these all have to be entered manually. And there's also no way to contact the individual crew members within the system, you have to actually call and ask them where they are and what they're doing. Otherwise the system will still show that crew as being in Chicago at 12:00pm.
You can see how this quickly snowballs into absolute chaos, which is what happened. And now they're having to literally call every individual crew member and figure out what the hell is going on, or crew members have to call in themselves, which means the company phone system is in perpetual gridlock.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:25 AM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
It's worth remembering that in the five years before the pandemic, Southwest plowed $12.5B into stock buybacks and dividends, instead of the company's infrastructure.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:29 AM on December 28, 2022 [87 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:29 AM on December 28, 2022 [87 favorites]
Reading about the total collapse of their phone-based system, I can't help but wonder what would happen if they spun yo an emergency Slack instance and put the word out for their crews to all join that.
I'm sure there are plenty of reasons this would be a terrible idea, but it does sound like their dependence on phone calls really isn't helping them right now.
Heck, maybe try email?
posted by simonw at 11:31 AM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm sure there are plenty of reasons this would be a terrible idea, but it does sound like their dependence on phone calls really isn't helping them right now.
Heck, maybe try email?
posted by simonw at 11:31 AM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Southwest is still trying to obfuscate about the timeline of their operational failures. Our flight on the 22nd was cancelled with no notification to us, this was prior to any weather on the west coast and seemingly just due to planes or staff being out of place.
posted by muddgirl at 11:41 AM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 11:41 AM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
The Southwest crew and airport staff I interacted through my roughly 36 hours of travel this weekend were all great and genuinely happy to help. It was clear they were getting little or no reliable info from Southwest corporate and were woefully understaffed, like maybe one agent for every 75 people in line at any given time.
Corporate also should have done *something* for passengers immediately as far as food and other assistance. Like start by just ordering 200 pizzas to every affected airport and waiving wifi charges on the planes that do fly, and go from there. My impression is the whole operation was too short-staffed to do anything like that.
If you are traveling Southwest right now, good luck, and save any receipts for food, taxis, etc. since they say they will reimburse.
posted by smelendez at 11:46 AM on December 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Corporate also should have done *something* for passengers immediately as far as food and other assistance. Like start by just ordering 200 pizzas to every affected airport and waiving wifi charges on the planes that do fly, and go from there. My impression is the whole operation was too short-staffed to do anything like that.
If you are traveling Southwest right now, good luck, and save any receipts for food, taxis, etc. since they say they will reimburse.
posted by smelendez at 11:46 AM on December 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Was just experiencing this. Got stuck in Omaha and then Salt Lake City. People were spreading rumors of a labor strike in the Omaha Airport.
Most Southwest employees were great, but one Southwest employee was telling people to get out of line and "come back and rebook in a few days", like we're landed gentry or something. Guess he was trying to shrink the several-hundred-person line by dissuading people.
The line wasn't even for booking, it was for getting reimbursements, which I would have missed out on if I took his advice. They're just Southwest credits, but it was company scrip or nothing.
posted by ishmael at 11:51 AM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
Most Southwest employees were great, but one Southwest employee was telling people to get out of line and "come back and rebook in a few days", like we're landed gentry or something. Guess he was trying to shrink the several-hundred-person line by dissuading people.
The line wasn't even for booking, it was for getting reimbursements, which I would have missed out on if I took his advice. They're just Southwest credits, but it was company scrip or nothing.
posted by ishmael at 11:51 AM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
I know someone who is Crew for Southwest and he was predicting this when the weather was announced a week prior. He has been dealing with scheduling issues since the pandemic started and was telling us to basically fly someone else if they had time to rebook. Southwest has been having issues for a while now and a lot of their cancellations recently have been crew management problem rather than technical issues with the aircraft.
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:54 AM on December 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by indianbadger1 at 11:54 AM on December 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's not just expensive to fix things, it's also risky to take something that mostly works and is critical to your business and replace it or even change it at all. I mean probably the thing to do is to get it all ready for such a transition during a low-travel, low weather-cancellation month, but even then you risk causing a smaller version of the problem they're having now.
They just had 2 full years of low travel! Some of the other airlines apparently took advantage of COVID to do tech rollouts--Southwest didn't bother.
posted by kingdead at 11:54 AM on December 28, 2022 [42 favorites]
They just had 2 full years of low travel! Some of the other airlines apparently took advantage of COVID to do tech rollouts--Southwest didn't bother.
posted by kingdead at 11:54 AM on December 28, 2022 [42 favorites]
Note also that we have laws and regulations that require travelers to be reimbursed for failures like this: for expenses accrued booking accommodations or replacement flights. These rules aren't being enforced under Pete Buttigieg, and the results speak for themselves.
posted by billjings at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
posted by billjings at 11:56 AM on December 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
This time it's Southwest, but other airlines have had similar "operational meltdowns" in the past, notes Bangs. In summer 2021, for example, it was Spirit and American. And over Memorial Day this year, it was Delta Air Lines.
I don't know much about this, but I do remember Oct., 2021: "Southwest suffers operational meltdown as hundreds upon hundreds of flights canceled or delayed."
Back then, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association issued this statement. Today, they issued this statement.
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:57 AM on December 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
I don't know much about this, but I do remember Oct., 2021: "Southwest suffers operational meltdown as hundreds upon hundreds of flights canceled or delayed."
Back then, the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association issued this statement. Today, they issued this statement.
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:57 AM on December 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
Looks like Southwest has now moved on to calling the cops to arrest passengers for trespassing who just had their tickets cancelled
It is kind of weird to hear a cop basically admit he is private security for a faceless corporation. As much as there needs to be accountability for Southwest, police are above the law, too, in their own pernicious way.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:06 PM on December 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
It is kind of weird to hear a cop basically admit he is private security for a faceless corporation. As much as there needs to be accountability for Southwest, police are above the law, too, in their own pernicious way.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:06 PM on December 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Note also that we have laws and regulations that require travelers to be reimbursed for failures like this: for expenses accrued booking accommodations or replacement flights. These rules aren't being enforced under Pete Buttigieg, and the results speak for themselves.
Southwest is required to pay for accommodations, and Secretary Buttigieg speaks specifically to this requirement in this interview.
posted by mochapickle at 12:07 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
Southwest is required to pay for accommodations, and Secretary Buttigieg speaks specifically to this requirement in this interview.
posted by mochapickle at 12:07 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
Reading about the total collapse of their phone-based system, I can't help but wonder what would happen if they spun yo an emergency Slack instance and put the word out for their crews to all join that.
Yeah… the scale of the problem is big, but it's not, like, "big data" big. There are almost certainly off-the-shelf software packages capable of managing the actual data that needs to be kept track of, grouping and sorting it and letting people perform queries against it.
The problem you'd run into is almost certainly the integration into the rest of Southwest's systems, machine and human. People need to know how to use the new system, what its limitations are, what edge cases it doesn't cover, what to do in those cases, etc. etc.
By waiting until the old system has failed, Southwest may now have the desire and motivation to fix things, but they don't have the time and ability now in the middle of a crisis. Sure, they can pull a Stalin's Postman* now and try and get things going again, but what they're going to create isn't going to be something sustainable.
And as others have noted, the basic problem seems to be pretty straightforward, chronic underinvestment in infrastructure in the name of competing on prices with other airlines and returning outsize profits to shareholders. Particularly since Southwest's leadership probably realized—correctly—that weather events give them nearly a carte blanche to tell passengers to get fucked when something goes wrong. As long as their systems don't fall over during a clear, sunny day, they can just say "wow, big storm, much disruption!" and treat it as Yet Another Manageable Crisis.
* "Stalin's Postman" refers to an apocryphal—almost certainly untrue—story I heard in an O.R. class about the Soviet post office. Supposedly, Stalin was upset at how long it was taking official letters to get from St. Petersburg to Moscow. So he sent an official / super-high-priority letter in a red envelope, and told two NKVD agents to follow it through the system, and each time someone set it down somewhere and the letter stopped moving, that person was immediately dragged in front of their colleagues and shot in the head. And thus express parcels moved very quickly from then on. The idea is basically you take a critical process and follow it beginning to end, and unfuck, in real-time and without taking 'no' for an answer, anything that's preventing it from happening with extreme prejudice, to get things flowing again. It's also as destructive to the normal business process as you'd imagine it might be.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:13 PM on December 28, 2022 [14 favorites]
Yeah… the scale of the problem is big, but it's not, like, "big data" big. There are almost certainly off-the-shelf software packages capable of managing the actual data that needs to be kept track of, grouping and sorting it and letting people perform queries against it.
The problem you'd run into is almost certainly the integration into the rest of Southwest's systems, machine and human. People need to know how to use the new system, what its limitations are, what edge cases it doesn't cover, what to do in those cases, etc. etc.
By waiting until the old system has failed, Southwest may now have the desire and motivation to fix things, but they don't have the time and ability now in the middle of a crisis. Sure, they can pull a Stalin's Postman* now and try and get things going again, but what they're going to create isn't going to be something sustainable.
And as others have noted, the basic problem seems to be pretty straightforward, chronic underinvestment in infrastructure in the name of competing on prices with other airlines and returning outsize profits to shareholders. Particularly since Southwest's leadership probably realized—correctly—that weather events give them nearly a carte blanche to tell passengers to get fucked when something goes wrong. As long as their systems don't fall over during a clear, sunny day, they can just say "wow, big storm, much disruption!" and treat it as Yet Another Manageable Crisis.
* "Stalin's Postman" refers to an apocryphal—almost certainly untrue—story I heard in an O.R. class about the Soviet post office. Supposedly, Stalin was upset at how long it was taking official letters to get from St. Petersburg to Moscow. So he sent an official / super-high-priority letter in a red envelope, and told two NKVD agents to follow it through the system, and each time someone set it down somewhere and the letter stopped moving, that person was immediately dragged in front of their colleagues and shot in the head. And thus express parcels moved very quickly from then on. The idea is basically you take a critical process and follow it beginning to end, and unfuck, in real-time and without taking 'no' for an answer, anything that's preventing it from happening with extreme prejudice, to get things flowing again. It's also as destructive to the normal business process as you'd imagine it might be.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:13 PM on December 28, 2022 [14 favorites]
Southwest is required to pay for accommodations, and Secretary Buttigieg speaks specifically to this requirement in this interview.
Good news to hear. Buttigieg has faced criticism for his enforcement over the past couple of years: link
posted by billjings at 12:14 PM on December 28, 2022
Good news to hear. Buttigieg has faced criticism for his enforcement over the past couple of years: link
posted by billjings at 12:14 PM on December 28, 2022
FWIW, I would like to see the "weather loophole" eliminated completely. It's not like you, the passenger, care if you're stranded in O'Hare because of the airline's computer shitting the bed, or a giant snowstorm. Either way, you're not getting where you're going that night, you need to find a hotel, etc. Why are we putting the weather risk on the passenger, particularly with the rise of advance-purchase, non-rebookable tickets?
Here's a Modest Proposal: have the FAA run an indemnity fund, funded via a mandatory per-seat fee on all US departures (let's not call it a "tax", Americans hate "taxes"), and then the airlines can apply for reimbursement for mandatory hotel and other rescheduling costs borne by passengers and paid for by the airlines, if in the FAA's judgment, a bona fide force majure existed at the time of the departure such that they could not have foreseen or avoided the delay.
You, the passenger, no longer have to care whether the flight is delayed due to weather or staffing or the price of Jet-A, you just know that if you don't make it on the plane, that you're going to have a hotel or rebooking fees or whatever covered. The airline handles arguing about which flights were canceled for weather reasons and which were canceled at their discretion, and does so with the FAA who is pretty uniquely placed to call them on their bullshit if it's not true.
IIRC this may be somewhat similar to how the European system operates, although I think they may just straight-up force the airlines to eat the cost and then figure out how to make their businesses profitable despite that. Since in the US I wouldn't trust the airlines not to just go bankrupt (and strand all their customers) each time there's a snowstorm, I'd probably rather have the insurance pooling done by a third party and be across the entire industry.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:21 PM on December 28, 2022 [25 favorites]
Here's a Modest Proposal: have the FAA run an indemnity fund, funded via a mandatory per-seat fee on all US departures (let's not call it a "tax", Americans hate "taxes"), and then the airlines can apply for reimbursement for mandatory hotel and other rescheduling costs borne by passengers and paid for by the airlines, if in the FAA's judgment, a bona fide force majure existed at the time of the departure such that they could not have foreseen or avoided the delay.
You, the passenger, no longer have to care whether the flight is delayed due to weather or staffing or the price of Jet-A, you just know that if you don't make it on the plane, that you're going to have a hotel or rebooking fees or whatever covered. The airline handles arguing about which flights were canceled for weather reasons and which were canceled at their discretion, and does so with the FAA who is pretty uniquely placed to call them on their bullshit if it's not true.
IIRC this may be somewhat similar to how the European system operates, although I think they may just straight-up force the airlines to eat the cost and then figure out how to make their businesses profitable despite that. Since in the US I wouldn't trust the airlines not to just go bankrupt (and strand all their customers) each time there's a snowstorm, I'd probably rather have the insurance pooling done by a third party and be across the entire industry.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:21 PM on December 28, 2022 [25 favorites]
Hey billjings, the linked article appears to be about calls for taking additional steps that are not part of current legislation. Which I'm absolutely 100% in support of, and I think Sec Buttigieg should wield all the power he has to enact additional requirements to benefit passengers, but I don't think failing to create new legislation counts as dereliction.
The real and most immediate problem is that Southwest succumbed to greed and utterly failed to maintain and update their infrastructure. Other airlines were seeing double-digit cancellations. LUV was seeing 60%. Almost every LUV flight in and out of my local airport is hosed.
posted by mochapickle at 12:22 PM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
The real and most immediate problem is that Southwest succumbed to greed and utterly failed to maintain and update their infrastructure. Other airlines were seeing double-digit cancellations. LUV was seeing 60%. Almost every LUV flight in and out of my local airport is hosed.
posted by mochapickle at 12:22 PM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
> People behind me were trying to cancel their seats on a flight where other people were desperately trying to fly standby and planes ended up leaving with seats unfilled because the people who weren't on the plane were stuck in line to let Southwest know they wouldn't be on the plane.
This is both a Southwest problem and a problem with the security bureaucracy around plane travel. I remember about a decade ago I was on a bus from Boston to New York that broke down at a rest stop and was waiting for a replacement bus. Another bus pulled in, maybe not even from the same company, and I went over and talked to the driver and he told me there was a spare seat and I should just get on. I think I gave him a small cash tip afterward.
There's no legitimate security reason flight crew shouldn't be able to just find other passengers in the screened area of the airport in a situation like this, but I imagine FAA/TSA rules would treat unmanifested passengers as a massive security breach. (Some people would probably also be concerned about people's families not knowing they were on the plane if it crashed, but passengers could waive that and, nowadays, just text someone the flight number).
posted by smelendez at 12:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is both a Southwest problem and a problem with the security bureaucracy around plane travel. I remember about a decade ago I was on a bus from Boston to New York that broke down at a rest stop and was waiting for a replacement bus. Another bus pulled in, maybe not even from the same company, and I went over and talked to the driver and he told me there was a spare seat and I should just get on. I think I gave him a small cash tip afterward.
There's no legitimate security reason flight crew shouldn't be able to just find other passengers in the screened area of the airport in a situation like this, but I imagine FAA/TSA rules would treat unmanifested passengers as a massive security breach. (Some people would probably also be concerned about people's families not knowing they were on the plane if it crashed, but passengers could waive that and, nowadays, just text someone the flight number).
posted by smelendez at 12:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
^ other airlines were seeing single-digit cancellations. apologies.
posted by mochapickle at 12:28 PM on December 28, 2022
posted by mochapickle at 12:28 PM on December 28, 2022
I run a doggie daycare and this is completely fucking us because kennels we expected to be free are, understandably, not. We're getting along by the skin of our teeth and some clever musical-chairs maneuvering, but if we'd cut it any closer I'd be calling pet parents to ask if their dogs are crate trained. I say this just to give an example of the knock-on effect this is having.
At a slightly more mercenary level I kind of want to plan a trip for February and use my Southwest miles while they're still worth something.
posted by East14thTaco at 12:30 PM on December 28, 2022 [28 favorites]
At a slightly more mercenary level I kind of want to plan a trip for February and use my Southwest miles while they're still worth something.
posted by East14thTaco at 12:30 PM on December 28, 2022 [28 favorites]
I may know people who were working at SWA as consultants on ... crew scheduling ... who were summarily let go when the pandemic hit. Sounds like that $12.5B should've been at least partially banked for interruption of business so they could've kept the ball rolling on infrastructure work.
posted by Ickster at 12:56 PM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Ickster at 12:56 PM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
I hear that call for nationalization and would like to add that back in the hazy days of my childhood (before 1978) when my father travelled internationally for work all the time, airlines were heavily regulated by the federal government. Maybe some more regulation would help even if we can't move the needle to nationalization.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:31 PM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:31 PM on December 28, 2022 [15 favorites]
My understanding of SWA’s operations is that they’re an order of magnitude more complex and an order of magnitude more Just-In-Timey than normal airlines.
Instead of a hub-and-spoke, their flights are scheduled, like, BOS-PIT, PIT-STL,STL-MDW,MDW-LAX. So if there’s a cancellation in Pittsburgh due to weather, everything down the line is fucked up. And because they don’t have a huge presence (outside of maybe Midway) at the other airports, there really isn’t a spare crew or equipment waiting in the wings in St. Louis. If a United flight to Chicago gets cancelled, they’re going to have a spare plane sitting around somewhere for the next flight that was supposed to be on that actual aircraft, because it’s their biggest hub.
When it works it’s fine and very low overhead, but when it doesn’t. Man, it just collapses. My experience with Southwest is you either get there on-time or in the middle of the night. I’ve waited at the gate for 4 hours to scrounge up a crew when just one flight was cancelled.
posted by hwyengr at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
Instead of a hub-and-spoke, their flights are scheduled, like, BOS-PIT, PIT-STL,STL-MDW,MDW-LAX. So if there’s a cancellation in Pittsburgh due to weather, everything down the line is fucked up. And because they don’t have a huge presence (outside of maybe Midway) at the other airports, there really isn’t a spare crew or equipment waiting in the wings in St. Louis. If a United flight to Chicago gets cancelled, they’re going to have a spare plane sitting around somewhere for the next flight that was supposed to be on that actual aircraft, because it’s their biggest hub.
When it works it’s fine and very low overhead, but when it doesn’t. Man, it just collapses. My experience with Southwest is you either get there on-time or in the middle of the night. I’ve waited at the gate for 4 hours to scrounge up a crew when just one flight was cancelled.
posted by hwyengr at 1:39 PM on December 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
One of the major problems here is that SWA doesn't operate in a hub-and-spoke system the way a lot of airlines do. Combine enough weather-induced delays/re-routes with a systemic IT failure, and you get a problem where you have airplanes but not crews lined up , or crews timing out who can no longer legally fly, but a reserve crew can't be moved to cover them because the airplane that crew would have taken hasn't made it where it needed to go. Pilots are limited by law in the number of hours they can be on duty, and the number of legs they fly, and the number of hours of flight time...so the failures cascade and you get this mess which isn't as big of a problem for hub/spoke models.
This was SWA's biggest problem - This was a loss of Operational Control of the airline and in aviation this is a very, very, very big deal. Heads can and should roll over there. Herb Kelleher is most certainly spinning in his grave over it.
posted by Thistledown at 1:46 PM on December 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
This was SWA's biggest problem - This was a loss of Operational Control of the airline and in aviation this is a very, very, very big deal. Heads can and should roll over there. Herb Kelleher is most certainly spinning in his grave over it.
posted by Thistledown at 1:46 PM on December 28, 2022 [17 favorites]
And they don't even know where their crews even are. They plan their staffing according to the flight schedule, not the real time flight data. So even their up-to-date data is already old.
posted by mochapickle at 1:51 PM on December 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 1:51 PM on December 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
Here we are, X many comments in...and no mention of Covid. How many pilots/flight attendants/gate agents/ramp personnel are actually ill? How many passengers are happily unmasked and causing sickness everywhere they might go?
posted by pthomas745 at 2:02 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by pthomas745 at 2:02 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
Y'all advocating nationalizing air travel -- think about what that could mean when different people, groups, parties, idealogues are in power in the government.
posted by amtho at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 2:24 PM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Here we are, X many comments in...and no mention of Covid. How many pilots/flight attendants/gate agents/ramp personnel are actually ill?
This was discussed earlier - a large part of the issue is that DEN (a major Southwest "hub", insofar as they have any) is currently having illness issues that's gutted their ramp staff.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:29 PM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
This was discussed earlier - a large part of the issue is that DEN (a major Southwest "hub", insofar as they have any) is currently having illness issues that's gutted their ramp staff.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:29 PM on December 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
Currently in a car in the middle of Ohio because of all this, finishing up day 1 of a two day drive because of all this. And we're some of the lucky ones- we were staying with my in laws so we weren't panicking about getting hotel rooms if we needed to stay a few extra days, we had time off, and have the cash to pay for a rental car and our hotel room for tonight while we wait for SW to theoretically process our refund.
And also yeah, pthomas745 fun fact, my uncle flies for Southwest and is currently out dealing with a rebound covid case.
posted by damayanti at 2:35 PM on December 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
And also yeah, pthomas745 fun fact, my uncle flies for Southwest and is currently out dealing with a rebound covid case.
posted by damayanti at 2:35 PM on December 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Oof, here's a story from a mefite traveler from a Southwest-centered AskMe going on right now. Man.
posted by mochapickle at 2:42 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 2:42 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I got stuck in this on the 26th, spent all day in the airport when my 9am flight got delayed over and over until it finally got canceled at 4pm. Our flight was waiting for a flight attendant after one didn't make it due to a canceled transfer. The flight directly next to us was canceled because they couldn't find a pilot after waiting for 3 hours. There were a ton of available pilots and flight attendants in the airport (Phoenix which is a hub), but the scheduling system could not assign one of the many available flight attendants to our flight, so our pilot sat in the plane for 5 hours until they eventually timed out. When they finally announced the flight was canceled, I was able to book a replacement flight for yesterday which worked out fine, although it was $300 more than the canceled Southwest flight I got a refund for. The situation with my luggage was really confusing, but when I got to my final destination I went over to the Southwest Baggage office and it was waiting for me. I ended up losing $300 and a day of waiting, and that was the BEST case for my flight, there were many elderly or disabled customers who had no idea what to do and were probably stranded for days.
I am never going to fly southwest again for holiday travel. I'll probably still use them for random travel if it's cheap, but there's no way I can trust them again for critical travel after they failed this badly. On the positive side, I didn't really see any awful behavior from customers towards gate/flight crew. Most of the people on my flight were pretty experienced travelers so knew that the individual employees had nothing to do with the failure.
posted by JZig at 2:45 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
I am never going to fly southwest again for holiday travel. I'll probably still use them for random travel if it's cheap, but there's no way I can trust them again for critical travel after they failed this badly. On the positive side, I didn't really see any awful behavior from customers towards gate/flight crew. Most of the people on my flight were pretty experienced travelers so knew that the individual employees had nothing to do with the failure.
posted by JZig at 2:45 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
My friend just started working for Southwest, in Denver, doing something involving getting non-luggage stuff into planes. She's having an interesting and mostly good time with this, but the weirdly hierarchical and clueless style of management I'm hearing about is, to say the least, off-putting.
That "no sick leave without a doctor's note" letter linked above uses the word "insubordination" multiple times. Ugh. Who are these people? Why do they think they need to use that kind of framing? I know that they think they _need_ to use that kind of language, but why? How can that change?
My friend had one shift scheduled just a few hours after an earlier shift, so she spent some time Monday night sleeping in her car at the airport. Her cat was very glad to see her when she arrived home yesterday.
I think she really loves the job, but I hope she has a contingency plan.
posted by amtho at 2:46 PM on December 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
That "no sick leave without a doctor's note" letter linked above uses the word "insubordination" multiple times. Ugh. Who are these people? Why do they think they need to use that kind of framing? I know that they think they _need_ to use that kind of language, but why? How can that change?
My friend had one shift scheduled just a few hours after an earlier shift, so she spent some time Monday night sleeping in her car at the airport. Her cat was very glad to see her when she arrived home yesterday.
I think she really loves the job, but I hope she has a contingency plan.
posted by amtho at 2:46 PM on December 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Curiously, a Canadian budget airline — SunWing — is seeing the same problems, and (if anything) being more clueless than Southwest
posted by scruss at 3:40 PM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 3:40 PM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
We just flew on another airline and managed only one 2 hour delay over two direct flights, so we’re incredibly thankful. Walking through the terminal at Newark at 2am Monday night / Tuesday morning , it was completely deserted, like everyone else’s flight had arrived long ago and we were the last ones in, shut out the lights. But when we arrived at the baggage claim it was a madhouse. Tons of people gathered around a handful of carousels, and bags stacked four deep against the walls as if they’d been there for days, some shrink-wrapped together. We didn’t know about the Southwest situation at the time, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that was part of it. I’ve never seen anything like it.
posted by Mchelly at 3:50 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 3:50 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I highly recommend https://flightaware.com/ which lets you search by flight number.
But beware, Southwest uses the same flight # for multiple segment legs, so be sure to scroll down to the bottom to see "Upcoming Flights", "En Route flights" to find your actual segment.
Knowing where your actual plane is sitting (or flying?) can be very useful information for deciding "is my flight going to happen"?
posted by soylent00FF00 at 4:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
But beware, Southwest uses the same flight # for multiple segment legs, so be sure to scroll down to the bottom to see "Upcoming Flights", "En Route flights" to find your actual segment.
Knowing where your actual plane is sitting (or flying?) can be very useful information for deciding "is my flight going to happen"?
posted by soylent00FF00 at 4:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
We had a cheap ticket from Oakland to Long Beach... In California, no weather, should be easy, right? Hahaha.
We took a train to Bakersfield and linked up with some friends who are in a road trip. We did make it to our ultimate destination (Joshua Tree), and will be road tripping back because there's no way in hell our flight back is going to happen.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:20 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
We took a train to Bakersfield and linked up with some friends who are in a road trip. We did make it to our ultimate destination (Joshua Tree), and will be road tripping back because there's no way in hell our flight back is going to happen.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:20 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
This was discussed earlier - a large part of the issue is that DEN (a major Southwest "hub", insofar as they have any) is currently having illness issues that's gutted their ramp staff.
And the management response is to fire anyone not meeting impractical and unreasonable demands regarding overtime and doctor visits (the latter apparently illegal at the state level). Ya, that should fix a chronic and acute staffing problem. Good luck with that.
posted by Mitheral at 5:32 PM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
And the management response is to fire anyone not meeting impractical and unreasonable demands regarding overtime and doctor visits (the latter apparently illegal at the state level). Ya, that should fix a chronic and acute staffing problem. Good luck with that.
posted by Mitheral at 5:32 PM on December 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
Ugh... my SO is visiting family and is supposed to be flying back home via Southwest in a couple of days and now I'm worried about whether that flight will be happening and what to do to get him back here if there continues to be issues.
posted by Aleyn at 5:36 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by Aleyn at 5:36 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
Y'all advocating nationalizing air travel -- think about what that could mean when different people, groups, parties, idealogues are in power in the government.
The United States has had a no-fly list that has survived both Democratic and Republican administrations for over 20 years. The thing you’re worried could happen happened two decades ago.
posted by mhoye at 5:54 PM on December 28, 2022 [30 favorites]
The United States has had a no-fly list that has survived both Democratic and Republican administrations for over 20 years. The thing you’re worried could happen happened two decades ago.
posted by mhoye at 5:54 PM on December 28, 2022 [30 favorites]
Y'all advocating nationalizing air travel -- think about what that could mean when different people, groups, parties, idealogues are in power in the government.
Think about all of that, and then add Air Canada to the mix.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:08 PM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Think about all of that, and then add Air Canada to the mix.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:08 PM on December 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
(I'm joking btw.)
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:08 PM on December 28, 2022
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:08 PM on December 28, 2022
Here in Canada WestJet continues to blatantly abuse the "out of our control" loophole to passenger compensation by making cancellations a routine part of their operations and relying on lax enforcement. The hotel staff at any airport in which they fly will tell you all about it.
posted by lookoutbelow at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by lookoutbelow at 6:27 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Y'all advocating nationalizing air travel -- think about what that could mean when different people, groups, parties, idealogues are in power in the government.Can you spell out exactly what you think us plebes are missing? I’m pretty sure that if you do, each scenario will involve the security apparatus which has been federalized since 9/11 and the local police who are already doing that to the same people.
This feels like a variation of the gun-nut fallacy: the solution to an abusive government isn’t to think you can fight it with this one weird trick but rather to focus on the pragmatic and tedious business of not letting the fascists gain power.
posted by adamsc at 8:25 PM on December 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
I have two married friends in their 50s who fly from NC to Nebraska every Christmas to see family. They got stuck there (Southwest, obv) and are now driving back east in a rented Dodge Challenger, which is the most hilariously inappropriate car for them, and I’d guess not a great choice for a road trip. Hopefully they’ll get some stories out of it, but man. Our holiday trip by car is going relatively well, although we arrived in Asheville, NC in the middle of a multi day major water utility outage and a lot of closed restaurants and bathrooms.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:34 PM on December 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:34 PM on December 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
(Huh. My first visit to Asheville - decades ago now - also involved a major water utility outage and concomitant lack of bathrooms. I would have expected that to be more of a one-off.)
posted by eviemath at 8:59 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:59 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
adamsc, I'm just saying thought is good. It would be easy to say that "nationalize" could maybe be equated to "one weird trick" too (I'm not saying it is equivalent, just that rhetoric isn't magic) -- there are no simple solutions; simplification is probably the enemy if there is an enemy.
posted by amtho at 10:25 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 10:25 PM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
(ex-Ashevillein here and yes, it should have been a one-off and could have been a one-off if the city had decided to spend any money at all updating the ancient water system instead of offering massive tax breaks to the ten million breweries all of whom are stressing the hell out of the water system without actually giving back much at all to the city. actually it's the same as it is everywhere and being demonstrated by Southwest: never ever think ahead, fly by the seat of your pants, don't invest a dime in the infrastructure, grow without ceasing and, then uh, collapse and blame the weather.) /derail
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:30 PM on December 28, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 10:30 PM on December 28, 2022 [10 favorites]
No matter how many times corporate exces loot and cheat and destroy the core competency, reputation and solvency of a company of experianced proficient and previously effective workers, remember: There is no alternative to this.
Its like this everywhere, it has always been like this, nothing can improve upon this. No regulation can or should control them, no taxation or limits to executive pay or power, no other way of organizing and employing the workers can be implemented or even discussed.
The form of political economy we were born into is unstoppable, eternal, the best of all possible worlds, and totally capable of not destroying itself and the planet.
Bonuses. What Southwest needs is bonuses to help retain the talented executives that will see this company through this challenging winter, its upcoming bankrupcy and bailout and stock buybacks. Executives whose years of experience during this very crisis (they created) make them the best no .. the only choice for promitions, raises and bonuses.
Long live Southwest and the corporate death cult. /s
.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 11:31 PM on December 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
Its like this everywhere, it has always been like this, nothing can improve upon this. No regulation can or should control them, no taxation or limits to executive pay or power, no other way of organizing and employing the workers can be implemented or even discussed.
The form of political economy we were born into is unstoppable, eternal, the best of all possible worlds, and totally capable of not destroying itself and the planet.
Bonuses. What Southwest needs is bonuses to help retain the talented executives that will see this company through this challenging winter, its upcoming bankrupcy and bailout and stock buybacks. Executives whose years of experience during this very crisis (they created) make them the best no .. the only choice for promitions, raises and bonuses.
Long live Southwest and the corporate death cult. /s
.
posted by anecdotal_grand_theory at 11:31 PM on December 28, 2022 [16 favorites]
My ancestors were serfs. I'm not.
posted by amtho at 11:57 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by amtho at 11:57 PM on December 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Eh, it’s the US. Revel in it — this is the society you’ve all created together.
posted by aramaic at 12:11 AM on December 29, 2022
posted by aramaic at 12:11 AM on December 29, 2022
(/s = sarcasm)
When searching for flights the past few years Southwest has actually and consistently been way more expensive than some other major airlines for my routes, which was not the case long ago. I assume there are routes for which they're the best (or only direct) choice, but I wonder if there are also lots of people flying with them because of habit/frequent flyer miles/good reputation or lingering customer fondness and if their overall customer base will be contracting substantially after this. Their flights aren't even listed on search engines and aggregators - they rely on people to seek them out.
posted by trig at 1:48 AM on December 29, 2022
When searching for flights the past few years Southwest has actually and consistently been way more expensive than some other major airlines for my routes, which was not the case long ago. I assume there are routes for which they're the best (or only direct) choice, but I wonder if there are also lots of people flying with them because of habit/frequent flyer miles/good reputation or lingering customer fondness and if their overall customer base will be contracting substantially after this. Their flights aren't even listed on search engines and aggregators - they rely on people to seek them out.
posted by trig at 1:48 AM on December 29, 2022
I used to fly somewhat regularly for conferences and meetings. Even back then we had we called it ‘SouthWorst Airlines’, we avoided it at all costs.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:09 AM on December 29, 2022
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:09 AM on December 29, 2022
There's nothing theoretically wrong with regulation. For example, there's nothing theoretically wrong when Texas decides to run its utilities with its own regulations...
I'm always suspicious when people get nostalgic for something they don't remember very clearly. Or were even never alive to experience. Another thread just popped up about the golden age of Pan Am. The golden age when I would never have been able to justify the cost of air travel.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:23 AM on December 29, 2022
I'm always suspicious when people get nostalgic for something they don't remember very clearly. Or were even never alive to experience. Another thread just popped up about the golden age of Pan Am. The golden age when I would never have been able to justify the cost of air travel.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:23 AM on December 29, 2022
The United States has had a no-fly list that has survived both Democratic and Republican administrations for over 20 years. The thing you’re worried could happen happened two decades ago.
And we're all the better off for it?
I'm curious what people thing nationalization will actually do? It's like an article of faith with some people.
posted by 2N2222 at 5:25 AM on December 29, 2022
The United States has had a no-fly list that has survived both Democratic and Republican administrations for over 20 years. The thing you’re worried could happen happened two decades ago.
And we're all the better off for it?
I'm curious what people thing nationalization will actually do? It's like an article of faith with some people.
Reading the posts, it seems like one of you is talking about a re-regulated business model for the airlines and the other is talking about aviation security.
posted by Thistledown at 5:27 AM on December 29, 2022
And we're all the better off for it?
I'm curious what people thing nationalization will actually do? It's like an article of faith with some people.
Reading the posts, it seems like one of you is talking about a re-regulated business model for the airlines and the other is talking about aviation security.
posted by Thistledown at 5:27 AM on December 29, 2022
good reputation
Does anybody actually enjoy flying Southwest? It was always the airline of last resort for me, when everything else was hundreds more expensive or had an awkward layover. The cattle-call boarding alone is reason enough to avoid it, but the entire experience was always cruddy, top-to-bottom. I don't fly too often, but I definitely regretted every Southwest flight I've ever taken.
This whole situation sucks, though. My brother-in-law cancelled on us for Christmas at the last minute in favor of flying across the country for no apparent reason (long story, but let's just say my in-laws were not happy about this), and they were stuck in Denver for a day or so. I assume they were flying Southwest. I wonder if they will be able to get home.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:33 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Does anybody actually enjoy flying Southwest? It was always the airline of last resort for me, when everything else was hundreds more expensive or had an awkward layover. The cattle-call boarding alone is reason enough to avoid it, but the entire experience was always cruddy, top-to-bottom. I don't fly too often, but I definitely regretted every Southwest flight I've ever taken.
This whole situation sucks, though. My brother-in-law cancelled on us for Christmas at the last minute in favor of flying across the country for no apparent reason (long story, but let's just say my in-laws were not happy about this), and they were stuck in Denver for a day or so. I assume they were flying Southwest. I wonder if they will be able to get home.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:33 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
There's a reason people like to fly SW. It has more direct flights. Their system is not hub-and-spoke, like the other airlines. And this is why it breaks down so badly.
posted by Goofyy at 6:48 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Goofyy at 6:48 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
And they still have no-added-fee checked luggage. As you can see from the recent pictures of baggage claim areas, some people still love that.
posted by hwyengr at 6:51 AM on December 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by hwyengr at 6:51 AM on December 29, 2022 [3 favorites]
What I've gathered from Southwest/Buttigieg and the Buffalo plowing fiasco (seriously, from the sounds of things on twitter the mayor will be lucky to not be set on actual fire over this) it really looks like we're in a bit of a libertarian "paradise" already.
No one is coming to the rescue at any level of government or business, there will be almost no warning as to a system collapse for any particular system or piece of infrastrucure. The only thing you can do is have a spidey sense for when something is completely broken down but not labeled as such. Oh yeah, AND have the spare money (~$1000) to get somewhere else with what you need (and if what you need are meds then you may be SOL) by whatever means are available.
It's hard to see this as anything but throwing people to the wolves when the c-suite will undoubtedly skate with another bag full of cash.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:56 AM on December 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
No one is coming to the rescue at any level of government or business, there will be almost no warning as to a system collapse for any particular system or piece of infrastrucure. The only thing you can do is have a spidey sense for when something is completely broken down but not labeled as such. Oh yeah, AND have the spare money (~$1000) to get somewhere else with what you need (and if what you need are meds then you may be SOL) by whatever means are available.
It's hard to see this as anything but throwing people to the wolves when the c-suite will undoubtedly skate with another bag full of cash.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:56 AM on December 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
Does anybody actually enjoy flying Southwest? It was always the airline of last resort for me, when everything else was hundreds more expensive or had an awkward layover.
I remember thinking of them, way back in the day, as offering a surprisingly good experience for much better prices than anyone else, and I associated them with a sort of nice underdog quality combined with a reputation for reliability and good customer service (relative to the larger airlines). They sort of felt like an exception to "you get what you pay for" and a welcome alternative to the bloated and somewhat monopolistic major airlines.
However, all that was years ago.
posted by trig at 7:56 AM on December 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I remember thinking of them, way back in the day, as offering a surprisingly good experience for much better prices than anyone else, and I associated them with a sort of nice underdog quality combined with a reputation for reliability and good customer service (relative to the larger airlines). They sort of felt like an exception to "you get what you pay for" and a welcome alternative to the bloated and somewhat monopolistic major airlines.
However, all that was years ago.
posted by trig at 7:56 AM on December 29, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm curious what people thing nationalization will actually do? It's like an article of faith with some people.
I think it'll be more like the post office (current operations problems notwithstanding): getting people where they want to go relatively inexpensively and relatively reliably. If moving people around the country is a necessary public good/utility, it's something we ought to think about subsidizing explicitly to make it work and removing the cash grab profit motive at the C suite level.
Also, specifically, with respect to airlines, a lot of secondary and tertiary markets are starting to get dropped off airline routes because they're not profitable. Again, to the extent that moving people around is a necessary public good, what makes more money for the airlines (dropping unprofitable routes) isn't working well for the rest of the country.
I would also be fine with Amtrak picking up more routes and upgrading tracks for high-speed trains in large parts of the country, but I've been watching the efforts to make a Houston-Dallas train route for years and it never seems to go anywhere. Maybe nationalizing the airlines or even re-regulating them to get them to fly regularly and keep unprofitable routes to small airports is also a pipe dream, but it does seem like national transportation is an economic issue that requires more attention than our federal government pays to it.
(And I am in the "what are they going to do that's bad that they're not already doing?" with respect to no-fly lists and harassing brown people. The DHS and TSA are already here. Nationalizing the airlines won't change the national security apparatus.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:21 AM on December 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
I think it'll be more like the post office (current operations problems notwithstanding): getting people where they want to go relatively inexpensively and relatively reliably. If moving people around the country is a necessary public good/utility, it's something we ought to think about subsidizing explicitly to make it work and removing the cash grab profit motive at the C suite level.
Also, specifically, with respect to airlines, a lot of secondary and tertiary markets are starting to get dropped off airline routes because they're not profitable. Again, to the extent that moving people around is a necessary public good, what makes more money for the airlines (dropping unprofitable routes) isn't working well for the rest of the country.
I would also be fine with Amtrak picking up more routes and upgrading tracks for high-speed trains in large parts of the country, but I've been watching the efforts to make a Houston-Dallas train route for years and it never seems to go anywhere. Maybe nationalizing the airlines or even re-regulating them to get them to fly regularly and keep unprofitable routes to small airports is also a pipe dream, but it does seem like national transportation is an economic issue that requires more attention than our federal government pays to it.
(And I am in the "what are they going to do that's bad that they're not already doing?" with respect to no-fly lists and harassing brown people. The DHS and TSA are already here. Nationalizing the airlines won't change the national security apparatus.)
posted by gentlyepigrams at 8:21 AM on December 29, 2022 [8 favorites]
I travel regularly between DC and KC (as virtually all of my family lives in Kansas) and used to fly SW all the time because they were one of the very few options for a DCA to MCI nonstop. Before you consider it "last resort", I've been on SW flights with some notable DC folks, notably Senator Tim Kaine 3-4 years ago and (ugh) Sarah Huckabee Sanders when she was still WH press secretary. Flying nonstop with free luggage is a pretty powerful motivator.
Personally, I liked SW. It's generally no-frills but no worse than the cattle-class experience on the legacy carriers, and far better than the horrible LCCs like Spirit.
That being said, we chose to fly United for the holidays this year instead and thank goodness we did. Much as I enjoyed SW I don't think I'm going back anytime soon.
posted by photo guy at 8:21 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Personally, I liked SW. It's generally no-frills but no worse than the cattle-class experience on the legacy carriers, and far better than the horrible LCCs like Spirit.
That being said, we chose to fly United for the holidays this year instead and thank goodness we did. Much as I enjoyed SW I don't think I'm going back anytime soon.
posted by photo guy at 8:21 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah I’m one of those people that likes Southwest a lot (although like many, I had an Experience this week - Monday flight out had the second leg cancelled, got stuck at Midway with hundreds of other people, I gave up on hope of getting to my destination and ran into a similar shitshow trying to get an Amtrak home from Union Station).
For SW, I always like that if you are quick enough with hitting the button to check in right at the time window, you’re pretty much guaranteed carry-on space. When I’ve flown Delta/American/United it’s a crapshoot whether you can get an overhead bin spot and then they charge you to check a bag if you can’t. Plus the personal item bag space under their seats is smaller. And the SWA flight cancelling/changing situation has been absolutely essential for the many many MANY last minute covid-related trip cancellations I’ve dealt with in the past year. I guess with other airlines I’d just… lose that money? And they have lots of nonstops from my smallish midwest city that a lot of others don’t offer. I’m pretty unhappy that they might collapse.
posted by crime online at 8:31 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
For SW, I always like that if you are quick enough with hitting the button to check in right at the time window, you’re pretty much guaranteed carry-on space. When I’ve flown Delta/American/United it’s a crapshoot whether you can get an overhead bin spot and then they charge you to check a bag if you can’t. Plus the personal item bag space under their seats is smaller. And the SWA flight cancelling/changing situation has been absolutely essential for the many many MANY last minute covid-related trip cancellations I’ve dealt with in the past year. I guess with other airlines I’d just… lose that money? And they have lots of nonstops from my smallish midwest city that a lot of others don’t offer. I’m pretty unhappy that they might collapse.
posted by crime online at 8:31 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
eh probably should change “might collapse” to are collapsing” in my comment
posted by crime online at 8:37 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by crime online at 8:37 AM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I've flown Southwest a lot for business, mostly because it often ended up being the only airline with a direct flight to where i needed to go. I could justify the cost of buying Early Bird or a fare that checked me in automatically and so almost always ended up with an "A" boarding position -- I had my choice of seats and never had to check a bag. I've always appreciated being able to choose who I'm sitting near, whereas recent flights with assigned seating (ahem, American) uncannily always ended up with me in front a four year old who enjoys kicking seats...for six hours....
Super happy I turned down a late-scheduled business trip that would have had me flying on the 23rd!!!
posted by Tandem Affinity at 8:52 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Super happy I turned down a late-scheduled business trip that would have had me flying on the 23rd!!!
posted by Tandem Affinity at 8:52 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yeah I really like their no assigned seats thing, and their change/cancellation policy. I appreciate their free checked luggage, even though I never actually use it. I have some credit with them from a cancelled flight earlier so I really hope they get their shit together so I can use it.
posted by aubilenon at 9:12 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by aubilenon at 9:12 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I used to fly Southwest a lot (SAN to BWI through 2007, SDF to BWI since); I've had fewer reasons to go to BWI in the last 5 years, so I've flown Southwest a lot less (there are a few specific airports Southwest was really good for, and BWI was one of them). They were a reasonably pleasant experience for a seasoned traveler who was comfortable with their quirks: in particular the no-bag-check fee was good, their willingness to change a flight with no change fees was great (other airlines have caught up a bit on this one), and I liked the fact that they flew exclusively 737s (flying out of SDF usually means flying on a Canadair or Embraer RJ, which can be choppy and/or cramped). The unassigned seats with the check-in ordered priority system were a less attractive quirk, but even that could sort of favor an experienced traveler who knew to check in promptly.
Admittedly, I haven't flown them in several years, and even then they occasionally had serious hiccups, but for a while there they could authentically be the best choice.
posted by jackbishop at 9:39 AM on December 29, 2022
Admittedly, I haven't flown them in several years, and even then they occasionally had serious hiccups, but for a while there they could authentically be the best choice.
posted by jackbishop at 9:39 AM on December 29, 2022
Would it be too on-the-nose if they just let loose a lion at DEN and broadcast to FOX?
posted by amanda at 10:21 AM on December 29, 2022
posted by amanda at 10:21 AM on December 29, 2022
but I've been watching the efforts to make a Houston-Dallas train route for years and it never seems to go anywhere.
Guess what Texas based airline which profits heavily from intrastate flights has been behind that!
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:21 AM on December 29, 2022 [17 favorites]
Guess what Texas based airline which profits heavily from intrastate flights has been behind that!
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:21 AM on December 29, 2022 [17 favorites]
A little more than two decades ago, I flew Southwest from Midway to the small airport on Long Island for a conference. Having no real sense of the geography of Long Island, I arrived at the airport for my return flight early enough that I was already in the boarding area before the Southwest flight before mine was due to depart. So I went to the gate and asked the agent if I could switch onto the earlier flight. The answer was that I could, but it would cost me $99 (or something like that). Being unable to justify (or afford) what would have been a significant fraction of the original cost of the ticket, I declined and went back to my own flight's gate.
Time passed. The previous flight departed. As the boarding time of my own flight approached, a Southwest agent went on the intercom to solicit volunteers to give up their seats in exchange for hundred-dollar Southwest vouchers and seats on a later flight, because my flight was oversold. I did not volunteer. But this incident of Southwest being either too disorganized or too bloody-minded to act in its own economic self-interest stuck in my mind.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:37 AM on December 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
Time passed. The previous flight departed. As the boarding time of my own flight approached, a Southwest agent went on the intercom to solicit volunteers to give up their seats in exchange for hundred-dollar Southwest vouchers and seats on a later flight, because my flight was oversold. I did not volunteer. But this incident of Southwest being either too disorganized or too bloody-minded to act in its own economic self-interest stuck in my mind.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:37 AM on December 29, 2022 [6 favorites]
I was always a fan of Southwest, probably because the things it is (was?) good at are the things I used. Online booking is easy, they have a choice of daily departures on the only route I fly more than once every five years, and there are no change or cancellation fees. My route is into and out of non-hub airports that are in the same major market as hub airports, and Southwest is the only option for nonstop flights. Also the boarding process doesn't bother me, compared to other airlines where it says Boarding Group 2 on your ticket and you think that means you're boarding in the 2nd group, but instead you have to wait through three tiers of Precious Metals Clubs, Basic Rewards Members, I Paid More for Legroom, etc, and then all the bins are full and you pay to check a bag.
Yesterday I flew from SAN to OAK on Southwest. Out of 12 scheduled nonstop flights, 9 were canceled, but mine happened to be one that went through OK. Both terminals were deserted and the plane was only half full, which seems ridiculous. Maybe half the passengers gave up or had other legs that were canceled, but based on some of the above comments about their systems being terrible, maybe Southwest just wasn't able to rebook people onto the flights that were actually flying. So if anyone's still stuck and there's a Southwest nonstop that hasn't been canceled, you might be able to standby and get on it.
When I was looking at other airlines in case the flight was canceled, the only other option was Alaska Airlines which had a layover in Seattle. For a flight between Southern California and Northern California.
posted by expialidocious at 10:48 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Yesterday I flew from SAN to OAK on Southwest. Out of 12 scheduled nonstop flights, 9 were canceled, but mine happened to be one that went through OK. Both terminals were deserted and the plane was only half full, which seems ridiculous. Maybe half the passengers gave up or had other legs that were canceled, but based on some of the above comments about their systems being terrible, maybe Southwest just wasn't able to rebook people onto the flights that were actually flying. So if anyone's still stuck and there's a Southwest nonstop that hasn't been canceled, you might be able to standby and get on it.
When I was looking at other airlines in case the flight was canceled, the only other option was Alaska Airlines which had a layover in Seattle. For a flight between Southern California and Northern California.
posted by expialidocious at 10:48 AM on December 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
Remember when Southwest was cool?
... I love that they don't use hub-and-spokes; they really need a super clever solution to scheduling, though, to make that work. Maybe some kind of algorithmic innovation.
posted by amtho at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2022
... I love that they don't use hub-and-spokes; they really need a super clever solution to scheduling, though, to make that work. Maybe some kind of algorithmic innovation.
posted by amtho at 1:31 PM on December 29, 2022
Are there any other large airlines internationally that don't use hub-and-spoke?
posted by trig at 1:34 PM on December 29, 2022
posted by trig at 1:34 PM on December 29, 2022
I'm curious what people thing nationalization will actually do? It's like an article of faith with some people.
As long as "delivering shareholder value" is the sole success metric for modern corporations, the kinds of failure Southwest has caused here, are, as outcomes go, inevitable. Because that failure is a consequence of all the structures Southwest, and almost all corporations, are using to measure success.
What people want from nationalized industries is public accountability for doing the job the industry is supposed to do, as distinct from private accountability for making a line go up for a subset of people whose lines are already mostly very, very up.
posted by mhoye at 1:52 PM on December 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
As long as "delivering shareholder value" is the sole success metric for modern corporations, the kinds of failure Southwest has caused here, are, as outcomes go, inevitable. Because that failure is a consequence of all the structures Southwest, and almost all corporations, are using to measure success.
What people want from nationalized industries is public accountability for doing the job the industry is supposed to do, as distinct from private accountability for making a line go up for a subset of people whose lines are already mostly very, very up.
posted by mhoye at 1:52 PM on December 29, 2022 [10 favorites]
I like southwest, for the reasons above. Non stop flights, low prices, less hassle, low or no fees. Do all airlines allow family boarding now? Last two times I flew another airline, the flights were cancelled. Or it was Spirit and I really didn't care for the BO-and-racid-nachoes smell of the airplane during an hours long trip.
It s probably going to be our preferred airline, given the region of the country where our family lives, for the foreseeable future, unless there is a strike and we are asked not to cross the picket.
It s not like the other airlines are improving service to complete.
We are lucky to come out of this season's catastrophe unscathed, and our flights went uncancelled / not delayed.
Our luck probably has to do with the fact our flights are smaller legs that come after the plane hits LAX And MDW, which seem to be the large hubs. So our otherwise marginal flights have Los Angeles And Chicago to thank.
posted by eustatic at 2:00 PM on December 29, 2022
It s probably going to be our preferred airline, given the region of the country where our family lives, for the foreseeable future, unless there is a strike and we are asked not to cross the picket.
It s not like the other airlines are improving service to complete.
We are lucky to come out of this season's catastrophe unscathed, and our flights went uncancelled / not delayed.
Our luck probably has to do with the fact our flights are smaller legs that come after the plane hits LAX And MDW, which seem to be the large hubs. So our otherwise marginal flights have Los Angeles And Chicago to thank.
posted by eustatic at 2:00 PM on December 29, 2022
It s not like the other airlines are improving service to complete.
I dunno if they're improving, but every time I've compared, for years now, SW has actually had much higher prices for my (specific) routes - like sometimes more than twice as high, taking baggage fees into account and all. And they never have the direct flights I (specifically) need. And some airlines, like United, got rid of change fees and expiring miles during the pandemic. So I think it's not possible anymore to make any general statements about SW being cheaper or better - like you said, it really depends on the airports and routes.
On another note, I wonder if this is going to affect the JetBlue/Spirit merger's chances for regulatory approval.
posted by trig at 2:48 PM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I dunno if they're improving, but every time I've compared, for years now, SW has actually had much higher prices for my (specific) routes - like sometimes more than twice as high, taking baggage fees into account and all. And they never have the direct flights I (specifically) need. And some airlines, like United, got rid of change fees and expiring miles during the pandemic. So I think it's not possible anymore to make any general statements about SW being cheaper or better - like you said, it really depends on the airports and routes.
On another note, I wonder if this is going to affect the JetBlue/Spirit merger's chances for regulatory approval.
posted by trig at 2:48 PM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
Guess what Texas based airline which profits heavily from intrastate flights has been behind that!
This is my shocked face. Someone had to be paying for all those lawyers in the eminent domain cases for the rail right of way.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:06 PM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
This is my shocked face. Someone had to be paying for all those lawyers in the eminent domain cases for the rail right of way.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 4:06 PM on December 29, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really lucked out here. I was flying my return-home leg of Denver to Cincinnati on the 23rd using Frontier. Flight was pushed back 90 minutes then 4 hours and then summarily canceled 30 minutes before the updated departure time. Stood in a multiple hour line to rebook (the Frontier web site was useless) and the best they could do is send me on a red eye to Philadelphia, 7 hour layover and then a flight to Nashville (and then I'd have a 5 hour drive). Otherwise I was looking at coming home the 26th at the earliest.
30 minutes before the boarding of my Philadelphia flight, it too was canceled. So canceled it disappeared from the notification boards at the airport. Back in the multi-hour line. Knowing I was likely not getting home via Frontier for 3+ days, I started searching the mainstream carriers to flights anywhere near Cincinnati. It was looking like at least $800-$900 for a flight that was going to get me home on the 25th. I found one decent flight but it was $1800. Then I decided to check Southwest. There was 1 seat to Louisville that was cheap but the web site design was mobile unfriendly enough that I missed out on that ticket while trying to purchase it. I finally settled on an very early morning flight to Milwaukee (and then a 6+ hour drive).
the people around me was so frustrated by everything and a good portion of the folks were just canceling their trips and driving home. The line continued for at least enough hour or more so I could get my refund. Each time I rebooked, I had to walk out of security and claim my bag before putting it back through security. This is the first time I've ever gone through security three times at the same airport in one day. I made it my Southwest gate with about an hour to spare to try and catnap.
posted by mmascolino at 10:17 AM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
30 minutes before the boarding of my Philadelphia flight, it too was canceled. So canceled it disappeared from the notification boards at the airport. Back in the multi-hour line. Knowing I was likely not getting home via Frontier for 3+ days, I started searching the mainstream carriers to flights anywhere near Cincinnati. It was looking like at least $800-$900 for a flight that was going to get me home on the 25th. I found one decent flight but it was $1800. Then I decided to check Southwest. There was 1 seat to Louisville that was cheap but the web site design was mobile unfriendly enough that I missed out on that ticket while trying to purchase it. I finally settled on an very early morning flight to Milwaukee (and then a 6+ hour drive).
the people around me was so frustrated by everything and a good portion of the folks were just canceling their trips and driving home. The line continued for at least enough hour or more so I could get my refund. Each time I rebooked, I had to walk out of security and claim my bag before putting it back through security. This is the first time I've ever gone through security three times at the same airport in one day. I made it my Southwest gate with about an hour to spare to try and catnap.
posted by mmascolino at 10:17 AM on December 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Guess what Texas based airline which profits heavily from intrastate flights has been behind that!
Southwest did lobby against Texas high speed rail, but the land HSR was taking was some of the premier cattle country in Texas on a per-acre basis (which is why the ranches are smaller than south Texas, which doesn't have much rainfall). Those people had their own money for those cases.
I fly Southwest when I have to, and think Spirit is fine. It has that same feeling at Southwest in the 1990s. I also feel that there is little difference between most of the airlines in terms of comfort and service, I guess unless you are flying first class or someone else is paying for the tickets.
I also have to thank Southwest for allowing me to hit every single state in the west (I think, it's been a few years) on a trip to Seattle that was originally booked to be non-stop.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:00 AM on December 30, 2022
Southwest did lobby against Texas high speed rail, but the land HSR was taking was some of the premier cattle country in Texas on a per-acre basis (which is why the ranches are smaller than south Texas, which doesn't have much rainfall). Those people had their own money for those cases.
I fly Southwest when I have to, and think Spirit is fine. It has that same feeling at Southwest in the 1990s. I also feel that there is little difference between most of the airlines in terms of comfort and service, I guess unless you are flying first class or someone else is paying for the tickets.
I also have to thank Southwest for allowing me to hit every single state in the west (I think, it's been a few years) on a trip to Seattle that was originally booked to be non-stop.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:00 AM on December 30, 2022
As long as "delivering shareholder value" is the sole success metric for modern corporations, the kinds of failure Southwest has caused here, are, as outcomes go, inevitable. Because that failure is a consequence of all the structures Southwest, and almost all corporations, are using to measure success.
This makes absolutely no sense. "Delivering shareholder value" would have been a good idea for Southwest. If Southwest was effective at "delivering shareholder value", they would have put enough effort into their business to completely avoid this whole problem. It's extremely unlikely shareholders will see any benefit whatsoever from this fiasco.
I think it'll be more like the post office (current operations problems notwithstanding): getting people where they want to go relatively inexpensively and relatively reliably. If moving people around the country is a necessary public good/utility, it's something we ought to think about subsidizing explicitly to make it work and removing the cash grab profit motive at the C suite level.
Also, specifically, with respect to airlines, a lot of secondary and tertiary markets are starting to get dropped off airline routes because they're not profitable. Again, to the extent that moving people around is a necessary public good, what makes more money for the airlines (dropping unprofitable routes) isn't working well for the rest of the country.
Let me get this straight. You want to subsidize air travel. Marginally justifiable air travel at that. And a nationalized Southwest is just the entity to pull it off. And since it's nationalized, it will be better and serve The People swell, just because.
This is just batshit insane. People wanted less inexpensive, reliable air service a few decades ago. And got it. Not by nationalizing, but by deregulating the industry. Under Jimmy Carter. It was deregulation that brought air travel to the masses, for better or worse. Not nationalization
The solution to Southwest's woes (which are likely to be transient and forgotten by this time next year) isn't nationalization. The solution is to let the company takes its lumps. And fail, if necessary.
posted by 2N2222 at 7:08 PM on January 11, 2023
You want to subsidize air travel.
Air travel has pretty much been subsidized by the federal government since the invention of air travel.
There's a line in The Aviator when Howard Hughes is starting to think about buying TWA. "What was your deficit last year?" It was just plain assumed that airlines didn't make money.
posted by hwyengr at 9:45 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Air travel has pretty much been subsidized by the federal government since the invention of air travel.
There's a line in The Aviator when Howard Hughes is starting to think about buying TWA. "What was your deficit last year?" It was just plain assumed that airlines didn't make money.
posted by hwyengr at 9:45 AM on January 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by NoxAeternum at 11:03 AM on December 28, 2022 [25 favorites]