"Every picture tells a story"

March 29, 2023 4:25 AM

Dyson gripped the top of a stone bollard; Wagner continued to look away. The film caught a stance that suggested majestic indifference to the poorer boys at their side, as though these boys were subjects as well as spectators. The moment passed, the morning moved on. The photographer and the local boys disappeared and the Wagner car at last rolled up. The match began.

—Five boys: the story of a picture by Ian Jack [archive link] is an essay exploring the history of the famous 1937 photograph Toffs and Toughs by Jimmy Sime, and the lives of the five boys in it.
posted by Kattullus (26 comments total)

The names of the five boys were George Salmon, Jack Catlin, George Young, Peter Wagner and Thomas Dyson.

Here is the Life Magazine essay with the other photograph of the same scene.
posted by Kattullus at 4:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Any way to bypass the paywall?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 4:45 AM on March 29, 2023

I didn't hit the paywall the first time I visited the page, but the archive link always works.
posted by Kattullus at 4:52 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

I know it's a tiny sample size, but reading about the contented success of the "toughs" and the mental health issues of the one "toff" who didn't die young, I can't help but think about other articles I've read about the way that upper-class British boarding schools ended up being trauma factories which either broke students or turned them into assholes. The broken students ended up with lives of pain and confusion; the asshole students ended up running the country.
posted by clawsoon at 5:47 AM on March 29, 2023 [31 favorites]

By 1937 England’s two most celebrated private schools, Eton and Harrow, had been playing each other at cricket for 132 years.

Jesus, I knew cricket games could go long, but this was news to me.
posted by Adridne at 5:50 AM on March 29, 2023 [60 favorites]

I've seen that picture so many times, it's really interesting to find out about the actual people it depicts. The war, and the start of increasing social mobility in the post-war period made a huge difference to the lives of lots of white working class boys and it's not so surprising to see that those depicted in this particular photo went on to have different, and more economically successful, lives than their parents. The two Harrow schoolboys were privileged, but not quite top of the tree - tenuously upper middle class for different reasons - which I assume would have mattered. It still would now. And such sad endings too.
posted by plonkee at 5:53 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]

Got it.

I think it's really interesting how the original narrative of the photo has been supplemented, if not replaced, by a counter-narrative. Originally, it was "Britain is hopeless class divided (and that's bad because it favors the rich people.)" Now, it's kind of a "money doesn't buy happiness, and maybe you're better off having the wholesome life of an ordinary person" thing. And money doesn't buy happiness, but I think it's worth pointing out that we've got an n of 5 here, and plenty of working-class people got mental illness and communicable diseases, too.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:56 AM on March 29, 2023 [12 favorites]

I must admit I had never seen that picture before today.

And I can't imagine how anyone lived with those extremes of wealth and want so close together, without rioting constantly.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:24 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

Now, it's kind of a "money doesn't buy happiness, and maybe you're better off having the wholesome life of an ordinary person" thing.

I always thought the point of the story of the Sword of Damocles was similar: "Say you like being a peasant and that my life as king is hard, or else I'll drop a sword through your skull."
posted by AlSweigart at 6:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

True, ArbitraryAndCapricious. And even with the small sample size, if the three "toughs" had been sent to one of those delightful British boarding institutions for poor children, it's unlikely we'd be talking about anyone who lived long and prospered.
posted by clawsoon at 6:29 AM on March 29, 2023 [6 favorites]

I think the correct narrative is essentially that Britain in the post-war era narrowed the gap between the prosperity of the social classes compared to Britain in 1937, to the benefit of a number of white working class men.
posted by plonkee at 7:29 AM on March 29, 2023 [13 favorites]

Every time I see a vintage photo, I always wish for this level of backstory about the people in it. So satisfying.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:34 AM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]

Are you familiar with The Lewis Hines Project, The Underpants Monster? It's one of my favorite things on the internet.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:52 AM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]

It's a nice detail that the boys labeled "toughs" were there after a morning visit to the dentist. (And makes me wonder what dental visits were like back then.)
posted by trig at 8:25 AM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]

Reminds me of Richard Powers' novel Three Farmers on Their Way to a Dance which derives from a 1914 photograph by August Sander.
posted by neuron at 9:08 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Wenestvedt, I dunno. I live in NYC and there aren't riots constantly.

The trains in Manhattan have this level of juxtaposition every morning.
posted by jellywerker at 9:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [10 favorites]

With far fewer top hats I would guess.
posted by y2karl at 10:23 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]

for the record (ie: in case you don't feel like reading the articles), of the two rich kids (the "toffs"), one died within two years (fever, travelling in India) and the other went mad in his forties (died in an asylum). Whereas the three "toughs" all prospered in their way, living full long lives, lots of kids and grand kids.

It's almost as if a single picture can't really tell you that much.
posted by philip-random at 10:48 AM on March 29, 2023 [7 favorites]

That's a fine bit of social history. Thanks for posting!
posted by scratch at 11:32 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]

Also, the toughs weren't tough at all or living particularly deprived lives but just regular everyday working class people wearing everyday clothes. The toffs were from wealthy families but weren't aristocratic or right at the top of the establishment, and they were dressed up for a particular occasion.
posted by plonkee at 11:32 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]

This article reminds me of the 7 Up series, where class played a complicated role overall, neither guaranteeing happiness nor acting as some kind of curse. It also reminds me of Dorothea Lange's "Migrant Mother," Florence Owens Thompson, who was ashamed and angry about the photo.

wenestvedt: Americans see the same gulf every day, in some areas more than others. I'm from Mississippi. I have heard of highly educated political staffers staring in horror as they ride through towns I have seen all my life. Are they wrong to? No; they were just from Connecticut or somewhere, where they also learned not to see some terrible things, whatever they were.

Most people will accept untold horrors if they grow up with them and are taught that somehow those horrors are just part of a huge system that orders the world in the way it ought to be. I know I have. I try to unlearn them, but who knows how well?
posted by Countess Elena at 11:53 AM on March 29, 2023 [8 favorites]

...We can’t know if the man with the camera asked the local boys to take up their position or if they just happened to be there; or if they jeered or sniggered at Dyson and Wagner; or if the photographer instructed Dyson to look slightly away from his lens; or if the moment made Dyson and Wagner acutely conscious of their appearance—their top hats, waistcoats, floral button-holes and canes. The photographer took pictures from at least two positions. At one point, according to later evidence, he asked the local boys to “stand a bit closer”. Dyson gripped the top of a stone bollard; Wagner continued to look away. The film caught a stance that suggested majestic indifference to the poorer boys at their side, as though these boys were subjects as well as spectators. The moment passed, the morning moved on...

That it is so immaculately composed is the tell.
posted by y2karl at 12:09 PM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]

Are you familiar with The Lewis Hines Project, The Underpants Monster? It's one of my favorite things on the internet.

I was not, but thank you for the recommendation!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:02 PM on March 29, 2023

Yes, the makers of 7Up essentially predicted (accurately) that class and social mobility would be an important feature of the future they were exploring through the lives of the children in the series. One of the things they didn't anticipate was that gender equality would also be important, which is why it didn't occur to them to follow equal numbers of girls and boys. Which is very interesting.
posted by plonkee at 2:03 PM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]

As mentioned previously, Ian Jack was a great writer - his writing is worth seeking out.
posted by Kiwi at 6:02 AM on March 30, 2023 [2 favorites]

Thanks for linking to that previous thread, Kiwi, I completely missed it. From the Internet Archive, it seems the Guardian article was a shorter version of the essay I linked to above.
posted by Kattullus at 7:38 AM on March 30, 2023