September 20, 2002

8:41 PM

A mother violently beating a child in a parking lot in Indiana was caught on tape by security. Apparently she was trying to return some goods to their local Kohl's department store that were purchased else where. The video of the beating is particularly harrowing. The mother leads the girl to the back of her SUV, and puts her in. There is no indication of any impending violence. The mother then looks around, and then suddenly starts to violently shake and beat the child. Reports say that she has since left the state, but a license plate and name has been found. Latest reports indicate that she will probably surrender to the police.
posted by aznblader (23 comments total)

SUV drivers.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:43 PM on September 20, 2002

Sorry. The first link should point here.
posted by aznblader at 8:45 PM on September 20, 2002

Discussion started here.
posted by jazon at 8:49 PM on September 20, 2002

phew. now my stupid comment can be deleted before anyone sees it.
posted by andrew cooke at 8:54 PM on September 20, 2002

Dammit! I searched! Honest!
posted by aznblader at 9:15 PM on September 20, 2002

aznblader: Don't worry -- your post is actually better in style and form, if the same in content. Hey, win some, lose some.
posted by zpousman at 9:27 PM on September 20, 2002

I think every one of the family members that refused to give info to the police should be charged with obstruction of justice.

I also hope some police officer that outweighs her by 100+ lbs beats the shit out of her in the back of his patrol car.

People like that should have their children taken away and be forcibly sterilized by the state.

Extreme? Sure. Effective? You bet. You disagree? Ok, let her babysit YOUR child once she gets out of prison.

I am not one of these "never touch a child" types. A good swat on the bottom is often exactly what they need. But that could not be called acceptable discipline by any stretch of the imagination.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:55 PM on September 20, 2002

I suppose what troubles me about this case is that people are only making a big deal out of it because it was captured on video.

Parents routinely beat and abuse their children far worse than this every day. And it's hardly unique to the United States; anyone who follows foreign news sources has read stories far more terrible than this.
posted by SPrintF at 9:59 PM on September 20, 2002

Ynoxas: I also hope some police officer that outweighs her by 100+ lbs beats the shit out of her in the back of his patrol car

Well, I hope that a group of guys bigger than that police officer beat the shit out of him!! And then a gang of thugs outnumbering the group of guys beat up the group. Then a militia... a platoon... a small island nation... a landlocked European country... a continent... until eventually, God gets into the mix and beats the shit out of everybody, starting with Ynoxas!! Yeah, fucking kicking the shit out of stuff is COOL!!!

Man, I wish I was God. I wish I could just rain vengeance upon all who displease me... fucking God, just like him to not make me god. Damn this impotent justice!
posted by hincandenza at 10:08 PM on September 20, 2002

I'd like to tickle hincandenza until he says uncle.
posted by crunchburger at 10:21 PM on September 20, 2002

Hincandenza:

Great post... except for the problem that the little girl is innocent and never hurt anyone. And the mother is not.

I'm no fan of an eye for an eye... but your post could basically apply to our entire justice system.
posted by aznblader at 10:32 PM on September 20, 2002

Between this and that insanity at Comiskey it might seem like the world is going nuts, but as nauseating as these peoples behavior is it's nothing new. There have always been thugs and child abusers among us, it's just that the relenetless camera eye(in this case surveillance, in the Comiskey case the media filling airtime). The perpetrators in these cases are heading to jail probably, where they rightfully belong. But just remember there's nothing new under the sun.
posted by jonmc at 10:46 PM on September 20, 2002

I can't help but think though. Are things like this justification for around the clock surveillance of public places?
posted by aznblader at 10:52 PM on September 20, 2002

Parents routinely beat and abuse their children far worse than this every day.

And if this woman would beat her child in broad daylight, imagine what might go on behind closed doors. That's what's scary, not that it was caught on video tape.
posted by justgary at 11:00 PM on September 20, 2002

A good swat on the bottom is often exactly what they need.

for the record, note my disagreement. quelle creepy post.
posted by kv at 12:02 AM on September 21, 2002

(A suggestion : it would probably be best not to carry on discussions whether serious or silly in threads that are recent reposts and thus doomed for deletion, I reckon. I'm just sayin'...if you want to, go for it, but presumably it will be pruned when Matt gets a chance to do so.)
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:03 AM on September 21, 2002

I agree with SpRInt - violence occurs all the time yet this is the latest video-driven media spectacle (ala miners trapped in a mine, rednecks beating up overpaid baseball coaches, celebrity-driven headlines, the Sopranos, American Idol, Survivor, blah blah blah) which has no impact and absolutely no relevance to larger issues. Tragic as it is, why do we all have to suffer through this irrelevant video rubber-necking garbage ?
posted by Kaslo at 12:34 AM on September 21, 2002

I am not one of these "never touch a child" types. A good swat on the bottom is often exactly what they need.

I personally hope I will never spank. I don't think that children can't handle spanking; it's some of those parents that can't handle spanking, and I know I'd be one of them.

No matter how we personally feel about spanking in our own house, I think we can all agree that disciplinary spanking is not abusive. However, spanking that is out of controll, irrational, coupled with verbal assults, etc, is abusive because it's a psychological attack on the kid.

Someone mentioned in the other thread that the kid is probably not hurt very badly. And I agree, there probably aren't very many bruises. But it wasn't the spankings or beatings that hurt me so much as a kid -- it was ever present possibility that the anger could explode out of control, and the fear that mommy might not love me. Abuse of all kinds deliver the same kind of blow to a child's psyche.
posted by jennak at 12:44 AM on September 21, 2002

An interesting sidebar to this case: the reports of this case were somewhat indicative of a possible interesting cultural circumstance of Madelyn Goreman Toogood:

1. No member of the family seemed to be cooperating with authorities, even though the main thrust of the investigation was interested in bringing Martha in for medical evaluation. 2. The reason the surveillance tape was examined in the first place (instead of just running in the background unheeded) was that the mother, Madelyn Goreman Toogood and her sister were under suspicion of attempting to scam the store by "returning merchandise" of uncertain provenance. 3. The name "Toogood" has a possible interesting genealogy.

It is likely that Madelyn Goreman Toogood is a member of a group of people known as the Irish Travellers...a nomadic "Gypsy-like" tribe of peoples who hail from Celtic roots, and live a life on the move:

A Settlement of Irish Travellers:Irish Travellers are not Gypsies, yet they are often called so by Gadjo. Irish Travellers share many traits with Gypsies, but are not of Asian Indian origin. Irish Travellers are Celts, fair of skin, often blond, often blue eyed. Some claim they even predate the Celtic invasion of Ireland, and this may be so."

This is probably why authorities released the tape and the story to the public. Irish Travellers are known to be culturally insular and, due to their adversarial history with authorities, not very likely to be either forthcoming or cooperative.

Irish Travellers are certainly not all bunko artists, and like any other ethnic group, have their good elements and their bad elements.

Meanwhile, it seems that Ms. Toogood-Goreman has made arrangements to surrender to officials through her lawyer.
posted by Dunvegan at 6:28 AM on September 21, 2002

But it wasn't the spankings or beatings that hurt me so much as a kid -- it was ever present possibility that the anger could explode out of control, and the fear that mommy might not love me. Abuse of all kinds deliver the same kind of blow to a child's psyche.

Yes.
posted by goethean at 7:06 AM on September 21, 2002

One thing that disturbs me about this is the number of "child abuse experts" that I saw on tv last night saying "this is what child abuse looks like."

I understand that they are trying to underscore the seriousness of the problem, but I am concerned that there are a lot of people out there who just, say, routinely bash their children's heads against walls who are watching this. Are they all saying "see, that's child abuse. What I'm doing is just discipline."

Do well publicized cases of extreme child abuse make it easier and more acceptable to engage in less severe forms of abuse?
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:09 AM on September 21, 2002

I hope this woman is given a rough welcome in her holding cell.

But re: this thread, the presence of an historic and thriving community of clannish "white gypsies" who conduct their bunco artistry in a secret language makes my South Carolina heart swell with a strange pride.
posted by subpixel at 8:07 AM on September 21, 2002

Wow, Dunvegan. Interesting stuff. I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, where there were people my grandmother referred to as "gypsies," who lived in distinctive houses like you linked to above. I always wondered why a "gypsy" would live in a large suburban house, often with a gate in front.
posted by sklero at 8:47 AM on September 21, 2002