For those who need a horror filter

June 27, 2024 1:22 PM

President Biden debates a rapist and convicted felon with the future of the world on the line. Some national and international sites to watch the debate online.

While I hold my hand over my eyes, I need those brave members of Metafilter to peek between their fingers and tell me all is well.

posted by dances_with_sneetches (1254 comments total)

A reminder on the proper way to ask a question of Trump, from Hamilton Nolan.
posted by mittens at 1:29 PM on June 27 [39 favorites]

When Trump makes some absurd claim like I never said lock her up, Biden should point out that is a sign of dementia. Also, lack of impulse control is a sign of dementia.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:32 PM on June 27 [19 favorites]

Could the uspol tag be added, please?
posted by humbug at 1:37 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Epicsonic, deutoronic, Joe is on it.
heyheyhey
politronic.
posted by clavdivs at 1:40 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

The fuckers will jump on any pause or sloth by Biden as dementia.

I hope trump comes out with some swing-voter alienating shit that can be played till the cows come home.
posted by lalochezia at 1:40 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Jack Schlossberg has some thoughts about the debate that Vogue would have definitely decided to publish if he were not JFK's grandson.
posted by box at 1:41 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

That people continue to pretend these are "debates" is laughable -- they've been nothing more than glorified joint press conferences ever since the parties colluded to exclude the League of Women Voters from organizing them.
posted by Pedantzilla at 1:41 PM on June 27 [47 favorites]

Suggested first question to each candidate by debate mods:
"Upon taking office in 2025, what are your immediate and longer-term intentions regarding my continued liberty and freedom of speech and movement in this country, as well as that of your opponent at the other podium?"
posted by zaixfeep at 1:43 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

These are absolutely meaningless. If someone is fucking stupid or evil enough to vote for Trump, nothing is changing their mind.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 1:47 PM on June 27 [25 favorites]

Biden’s answer to every question should be “my opponent is a convicted felon who lost the last election.”
posted by jedicus at 1:50 PM on June 27 [22 favorites]

Rolling Stone: Trump Allies Urge Him Not To Be a 'Raging Asshole' at Debate
posted by box at 1:52 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

A request from the White House Correspondents' Association to allow a pool reporter [Twitter link] to attend the debate, so that an outside observer can view "what is said and done when microphones are off and when either candidate is not seen on camera" is being denied. Not by the Biden campaign. Not by the Trump campaign. But by CNN. WTF, CNN?
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:52 PM on June 27 [30 favorites]

I hope trump comes out with some swing-voter alienating shit that can be played till the cows come home.

At this point, with all that we know, with so many things so well documented and so repeat played, what else could this possibly be.

Like I am serious, where are the swing voters who are waiting to be swayed and what is the issue they're waiting for more information on?

Even if Trump came out and said "you know what let's do it, let's increase tax on the wealthy," they'd still vote for him figuring it was just more nonsense lies, because there's an entire behind the scenes system to prop that up no matter what as long as he makes it to office. So what would be left? What is there to swing about?
posted by phunniemee at 1:59 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

If someone is fucking stupid or evil enough to vote for Trump, nothing is changing their mind.

No, but there are a lot of Nikki Haley voters, moderate on social issues, conservative on economic ones, disgusted by Trump and the overthrow of Roe, who reflexively vote R but are looking for a reason not to vote for Golden Toilet, and who can watch this and see that Biden is nice and boring and sane and doesn't yell like their husband does, and who can be convinced to not vote for Trump and/or show up at the polls instead of staying home.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 2:01 PM on June 27 [26 favorites]

The vast majority of viewers will not change their minds one iota. But a few, a very very few, might. There are lots of things I'd like to see Biden do to Trump, but his job is not to make me happy, or to make you happy (assuming that everyone reading this has, after long and considered analysis, come to a decision). It's to convince those bizarre folks who somehow after the last 6 years have not made up their minds. I don't know how to do that, and maybe it's not possible. But there are plenty of Democratic staffers trying to figure that out. I hope they have.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 2:03 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

From the Hamilton Nolan link above:

You put the question to him clearly. You let him blah blah blah and then you put the question to him again. Don’t let him run off down a side path forever. You let him speak until it’s clear he won’t answer and then you ask again. Cut off his mic, if necessary. He won’t like that. Doesn’t matter. Ask the clear question again. When he doesn’t give a clear answer, ask it again. The same question. Ask it again. Ask it again. Ask it again. Ask it again.

You know who I thought of when I read this? The person who probably could sit there calmly and poker-faced in the middle of his bloviation, and who might get away with actually pulling this kind of shit off?

Gayle King.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:06 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

CNN is fully in the tank for the fascists and has been since they hired Chris Licht. But that's true of most networks, I guess. I saw NBC and ABC this morning and both were acting like this.was a completely normal debate between completely normal presidential candidates. It made me want to… I dunno. Something dramatic.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:08 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

On the bright side I think almost every aspect of the rules they agreed to are very bad for the Bad Orange Man.
On the dark side it is unlikely any of that will matter. He was comically awful and 2016 debates and yet here we are.
posted by mcstayinskool at 2:13 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Trump is leading in most swing states. This is a very important event.
posted by gwint at 2:18 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

in my dream, I can see Trump yamary and then you hear a mic drop, some reverb.
Donald...

"Alrighty then, picture this, if you will
10 to 2 a.m., X, Yogi DMT and a box of Krispy Kremes
In my need-to-know post just outside of Area 51
Contemplating the whole "Chosen People" thingy
When just a flaming stealth banana split the sky
Like one would hope, but never really expect to see in a place like this
Cutting right angle donuts on a dime
And stopping right on my Birkenstocks, and me yelping
"Holy fucking shit!"
posted by clavdivs at 2:22 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

I said something to this effect on Bluesky but there are a number of people I love who are still stuck in sort of politics as usual wonk brain and they're going to analyze this like it's meaningful and it's really hard for me to see smart and passionate and compassionate people trying to parse this like we aren't careening towards fascism and they can make it all make sense.
posted by an octopus IRL at 2:33 PM on June 27 [36 favorites]

From Jackson Katz, The Upcoming Presidential Debate Is Really a Masculinity Contest (Ms. Magazine): "What will matter is [Biden's] energy level. His assertiveness and aggressiveness. The way he responds to Trump’s verbal aggression and bullying behavior. Whether or not he “scores points” in verbal repartee. In other words, the way he performs his “manhood.”"
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:43 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

This being the second time the two candidates meet in one of these things, the first thing that came to mind is "First as tragedy, then as farce".

I am having such a hard time squaring the fact that CNN is running a presidential debate like normal with the fact that one of the candidates tried a coup. On preview, an octopus IRL gets me. This isn't normal -- and treating it like it is just makes things worse.
posted by dbx at 2:48 PM on June 27 [26 favorites]

I will not watch this.

Given the choice, I would vote for a rabid, scabrous, shit-smeared dumpster raccoon for President over TFG. I do not need to listen to him or to his opponent to make my choice. It is better for my mental health not to ever hear him or see him.

For fuck's sake I have had a Greasemonkey script that replaces his name with ***** on every website since 2016. I'd rather see a literal string of Vonneguttian asshole glyphs than see his name in print. Fuck that guy.

I do hope that people who NEED to be convinced watch this and are actually impacted in ways that are good for the future of humankind. But really, how can one be alive and conscious and not recognize that this man is an utter pile of shit?

I will be happily watching something else (and maybe nursing a glass of gin) because I do not need to spend one more second letting his insane and diseased mouth-spew hate speech enter my earholes.
posted by caution live frogs at 2:50 PM on June 27 [26 favorites]

The only thing either candidate is trying to change anyone's mind on is whether or not to show up at the polls. That's it. I'm sure there a few people who's minds can be changed to vote for one dickhead over the other but really it's just about turnout for your team and suppressing turnout for your opponent.
posted by VTX at 2:57 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

I heard a charming British expression I've decided to adopt. They over-egged the pudding when they lied about Biden's dementia. Meaning they made it too rich to stomach. When people see that Biden is just fine (for an 81yo) the game is up. Now they have to add lie upon lie to explain that one. The new angle is that he's obviously on DR?UGZ!!

I wish it was true. Dementia sucks, imagine if there was a drug that could cure it - even for 90 minutes. That's enough time to say goodbye to dad. A drug like that, that'd change the world. It'd be worth billions, people would pay anything. A savvy politician could swing an election with that kind of scientific breakthrough.

So now they have to explain why the cure for dementia is being withheld. Or not, they're just lying sacks of shit anyway, they can make up whatever. Egg-up that pudding, the suckers love it.

It's incredibly mean to people with dementia and those who love them. It's an actual real thing with devastating consequences and these liars are making a triviality of it. There's no cure, stop saying there is. It's just fucking mean.
posted by adept256 at 3:06 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

> While I hold my hand over my eyes, I need those brave members of Metafilter to peek between their fingers and tell me all is well.

Oh god yes, please, someone else please be brave and keep an eye on those two and actually on second thought, please just tell me NOTHING. *ducks out of the thread*
posted by MiraK at 3:11 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

What time is the orange shit stain gonna walrus up onto the podium and whine? Six PM? I need to acquire some brain chemistry altering vice and indulge in it if I want to watch this. Not sure I have enough time.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:12 PM on June 27

Thanks for posting this. I'm going to read this through Metafilter later. Right now I'm bingeing Rachel Maddow's podcast about the history of American fascism.
posted by mumimor at 3:12 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

I have to admit, I'm slightly curious about how tfg will act when his mic is off and Biden's is on, and he has to sit and listen quietly. Or does he and will he? Obviously he'll stand there and shake his head and roll his eyes and perform rude, disdainful disapproval, but will he shut up?

I'm also slightly curious about how it will go when Biden gets to make a simple coherent response to tfg word salad of lies and non sequiturs, although that's more of a matter of watching the press and public's reactions over the next few days. I'm prepared to be appalled and disappointed. I guess that what makes me a smug liberal elitist and enemy of America and the common person. Who's with me?
posted by Reverend John at 3:13 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Won't watch but will lay odds that Trump's mic gets turned off slower and less often than Biden's.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:16 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

Please just engage with local politics to the best of your abilities and inclinations. US citizens have very little influence over what happens federally or even at the state level, even when their votes are counted.

Direct action is best. Take care of each other.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 3:24 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

Listen, I'm gonna sit this one out and do something else, but could somebody text me if... uh... you know. The thing happens? The one thing we've all been waiting for and hoping for? You know.

Just lemme know, ok?
posted by Tomorrowful at 3:25 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

I want us to all focus our psychic energy to the same spot behind the greasy orange forehead. Project an image of sharks...
posted by superelastic at 3:29 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I don't really want to watch this junk, but I am always curious to see with my own eyes what really happens, as opposed to reading the pundits weigh-in the next day with completely misleading and distorted bullshit.
posted by ovvl at 3:33 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

A country where Trump is a serious contender for a second term has its foot jammed down on the accelerator and is head straight for the wall. No matter what happens tonight, we are still going to hit that wall full speed.
posted by ryanshepard at 3:33 PM on June 27 [36 favorites]

I’m watching it for the same reason as ovvl. Please talk to young people in your life. I found out my teens had seen a TikTok of Biden wandering aimlessly across a field and thought it was funny, but they didn’t know it was fake. This stuff is not being posted by MrButt or whoever, but by well-paid right wing PACs. My China-loving wacko leftist buddy has also sent me fake Biden vids.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:37 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

I will be watching, against my better judgement but Mr supermedusa is a glutton for punishment. After a 9 day break from beverages I will be having wine tonight because damn. I cannot imagine a scenario in which this doesn't have me losing it at least a little bit. I'll try to pop in and update on the madness as it rolls out...
posted by supermedusa at 3:40 PM on June 27

No, but there are a lot of Nikki Haley voters, moderate on social issues, conservative on economic ones, disgusted by Trump and the overthrow of Roe, who reflexively vote R but are looking for a reason not to vote for Golden Toilet, and who can watch this and see that Biden is nice and boring and sane and doesn't yell like their husband does, and who can be convinced to not vote for Trump and/or show up at the polls instead of staying home.

I really don't think there are anymore.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:59 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Nikki Haley has been pulling (off the top of my head) something like 15-25% in the Republican primaries even after she suspended her campaign. There are certainly people who consider themselves Haley voters, for now, even if ultimately some of them stay home in the general or vote for Trump just because they won't vote for any Democrat ever.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:08 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

Listen, I'm gonna sit this one out and do something else, but could somebody text me if... uh... you know. The thing happens? The one thing we've all been waiting for and hoping for? You know.

but who's going to count the ping pong balls to make sure they get an equal amouont, brain?

(rip mr moose)
posted by pyramid termite at 4:34 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

If I were Biden, I'd try to work the word "shark" into one of my responses. "China is like a big shark, gobblin' up jobs! I'm serious, folks." Just hearing "shark" might trigger Trump to go off into full blather mode.
posted by SPrintF at 4:35 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Can't believe it's gotten this far. Terrifying. Just really letting a child raping, racist, felonious, twice impeached, treasonous, justice obstructing, seditionist, calls for public extrajudicial executioning affront to all democracies in history is not okay. This is the kind of shit people in the future bring up to talk about how fucking stupid we all were to let this happen, which is also how at least half of people today are also wondering for a decade.
posted by GoblinHoney at 4:45 PM on June 27 [36 favorites]

There are certainly people who consider themselves Haley voters

They are Haley voters when she is on the ballot. They are republican voters when she is not. Maybe 1% of them will choose to stay home or skip the presidential vote, but approximately zero will vote for Joe Biden.
posted by toxic at 4:46 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I'd like to think the debate won't matter, mostly because I'm tired of us reaching a new this event will decide our future point every couple of days. I really, really, would like for political stuff to stop mattering so much. It just saps the will to live. I won't be able to watch the debate (it gives me humiliation-by-proxy heebie-jeebies), but I suppose I'll be looking at all the places that are liveblogging it just to see if we're all going to die in a pit or not.
posted by mittens at 4:47 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Biden is going to wipe the floor with the Golden Toilet

Fox will declare Trump the clear winner, presidential, and so on his game, a very strong man, while Joe is a demented old fool (or a genius supervillain).

The horrid polio-media complex will declare a draw as Biden has a slip of tongue and Trump runs around babbling about electric sharks.
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:59 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

I predict that Trump finally executes his brilliant plan by naming BIDEN as his VP running mate, thus forcing a constitutional crisis in which the Supreme Court declare that anyone voting for Biden is de facto voting for Trump also, guaranteeing Trump an unprecedented over 90% majority of the vote going into his inauguration, but at the inauguration John Roberts knocks Trump out with a brick hidden in a hollowed out bible, thus invoking the succession clause, and Roberts inaugurates Biden right there. At Wrestlemania next year, the Rock declares his candidacy for 2028 and puts them both through a table.

Why yes, I have been watching lots of documentaries about pro wrestling, why do you ask?
posted by Saxon Kane at 5:11 PM on June 27 [22 favorites]

I'm going to bed, but checking in here first thing tomorrow for the live commentary.
posted by MtDewd at 5:11 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Yeah, for better or worse I listen to a lot of politics podcasts while cleaning, and there are basically a few key categories of people who absolutely do exist, even if we're talking a small % of the overall electorate for each:

1. Apathetic voters who don't want to vote for an old (white) guy again. The people who fall into this category range widely politically. One can hope if those that lean Dem see disturbing clips of Trump post-debate, they might be swayed to be less apathetic. These are people who have tuned out - they likely don't know about the 2025 project, etc.

2. Moderate Republicans who, as mentioned, mostly prefer Trump's policies but also care about democracy, the FBI, and American more or less remaining normal. If he acts too unhinged, they may at least decide not to vote.

3. Leftists angry at Biden. Especially younger leftists who were small children for the start of Trump's presidency, it seems possible that some may decide to hold their nose and vote for Biden if Trump says particularly vile statements during the debate.

I don't think I've ever been as nervous before a debate though - it could ultimately be good for Biden, but as with all cultural events these days, the actual event won't matter, it's how it gets turning into memes, viral clips, etc. And that's hard to predict.
posted by coffeecat at 5:16 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

> Especially younger leftists who were small children for the start of Trump's presidency

For today’s 18 year old the Access Hollywood tape came out when they were 10, and the Trump presidency ended at age 14… It’s understandable they might literally not have seen all the bad stuff about him, which older adults are used to assuming are common knowledge.
posted by brendano at 5:22 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

What I think will happen:
50% chance. Biden will get all wonky with 10%'s of this and that and how this is all the best of all possible worlds.
30% chance. Trump will go all Captain Philip Queeg and start saying it was the sharks.
10% Trump will go all Colonel Nathan Jessup and starting calling out Sig Heil.
8% Trump will appear as an WWF character "Flatulo!"
2% Trump will maintain discipline and seem almost normal.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 5:23 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Of the younger leftists I know, there's exactly one thing Biden could do to earn their vote: a complete about-face on Gaza.
posted by dbx at 5:32 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

Oh god, here we go.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 5:37 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Rolling Stone: Trump Allies Urge Him Not To Be a 'Raging Asshole' at Debate

iow, To thine own self be untrue.
posted by y2karl at 5:41 PM on June 27

An about-face on Israel (which would be a reversal of one of the most consistent American foreign policies since WWII) would cost him more votes from more reliable voters than it would gain him from less reliable ones. And I say that as someone who would absolutely love a reversal or re-evaluation of that policy.

Seriously though, do these younger leftists think that TFG would be more pro-Gaza, and would even lift a finger to make things better there? While I recognize that Biden's view on the topic is not at all where I would like it to be, I also know where the Christian Nationalists stand on Israel and on the indiscriminate destruction of brown people in other countries... so I know that while Biden's position isn't good, TFG's would be far worse.
posted by toxic at 5:43 PM on June 27 [19 favorites]

I am curious what this format will effect both candidates.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:43 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Honestly, I’m not gonna watch. I don’t see a reason to, myself. I know how I’m voting, and I just don’t need to see or hear the human dumpster fire that is Trump tonight. Or ever, really. I’ll watch the track-and-field trials instead. Or read.

Y’all enjoy the high blood pressure.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:44 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

Me, I just dropped acid
posted by y2karl at 5:45 PM on June 27 [24 favorites]

An about-face on Israel (which would be a reversal of one of the most consistent American foreign policies since WWII) would cost him more votes from more reliable voters than it would gain him from less reliable ones.

Treating Palestinian lives as having value would be a reversal of nothing other than his own behavior since October, and it is the absolutely damn minimum that he could do.
posted by Gadarene at 5:52 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Surely this.
posted by Reverend John at 6:02 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

That's a goofy set. What if they were just at a table?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:02 PM on June 27

Yooo what's everybody stress eating tonight? I got pistachios.
posted by phunniemee at 6:03 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

oh boy oh boy, the worlds oldest idiots have arrived to give us the dumbest 90 minutes since the invention of television
posted by dis_integration at 6:03 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

“Should a candidate try to interrupt when their mic is off..”
Yeah, the rare possibility
posted by funkaspuck at 6:03 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

It is a shame that so many Democrats are more excited by torturing Palestinians than winning the election.

It really is. Yet when they lose they're still going to blame the voters, or Russia, or whatever else their election grifters can come up with to blame anyone but themselves.
posted by Pedantzilla at 6:03 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Yooo what's everybody stress eating tonight? I got pistachios.

PASTRY FOREVER!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:03 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Biden looked doddery when he walked onstage.
posted by essexjan at 6:03 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Klondike bars over here, phunniemee, the USA USA USA themed ones.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:03 PM on June 27

Biden sounds old. I can already imagine the attack ads.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:04 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

Biden looks terrible. We're less than two minutes in.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:05 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

omg. we are so fucked.
posted by EllaEm at 6:05 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

how did we get here
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:05 PM on June 27

Yeah he really seems so much older than he did 4 years ago. He should have stuck to one term! Ugh
posted by dis_integration at 6:05 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

trump looked a little doddery himself
posted by pyramid termite at 6:05 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I'm refusing to watch this but my husband just texted me OH MY GOD THEY ARE BOTH SO OLD so I guess I'm getting the highlights anyway
posted by potrzebie at 6:06 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

The streaming is stuttering. I really miss my old tv channels right now. Why hasn't AI fixed THIS.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:06 PM on June 27

Trump is acting normal. Bad sign.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:07 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Yooo what's everybody stress eating tonight? I got pistachios.

Fingernails.
posted by mochapickle at 6:07 PM on June 27 [28 favorites]

Biden’s voice sounds scratchy therefore Rudy Giuliani becomes President and Joe Biden must live in a tent on Rehoboth Beach.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:07 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Am I jinxing things if I say that Biden sounds like he needs a lozenge?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:07 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

Trump looks like a teenager in comparison
posted by EllaEm at 6:08 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Ghina!
posted by Warren Terra at 6:08 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

hold your head up Joe, come on

(my family is not home and so I must vent here because my cat won't get involved)
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:08 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Wow, fact checkers are going to be busy tonight.
posted by porpoise at 6:09 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

....'ear'
posted by clavdivs at 6:09 PM on June 27

Six minutes in and my wife already shushed me. I wasnt even in the same room.

Now I am down the hall trying not to listen. I hate what this malignant orange thing has done to my country, my fellow citizens, and me.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:10 PM on June 27 [22 favorites]

Oh fuck, he's frozen.
posted by essexjan at 6:11 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Can the secret service please get Biden a bottle of water! Oh my God I can’t watch.
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:11 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Trillionaires. I mean billionaires. Billion, I mean million. C’mon, man.
posted by box at 6:11 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

I'm going to need a lot more malarkey Joe and a little less come on grampa let's go get your medicine. Just like a drop of personality dude can we SEE it PLEASE
posted by phunniemee at 6:11 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

*cries*
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:12 PM on June 27

Oh boy, Joe is not sounding good.
posted by Reverend John at 6:12 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Why is there no clock overlay on the screen? Trump went more than 2 minutes then.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:12 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

no no no no
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:12 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Folks, I'm calling it now. Trump is going to win. The democrats have handed it to him, it's entirely their own fault. They should never have let Biden stand again.
posted by EllaEm at 6:12 PM on June 27 [26 favorites]

I can’t bring myself to watch this. I’ll keep an eye on this thread though. Thank you to you brave viewers.
posted by bunderful at 6:13 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

We are so fracked unless TFG strokes out on stage.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:13 PM on June 27

The is fucking awful oh my god…..
posted by zenzenobia at 6:13 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

yes OK abortion come on Joe this is your strong suit
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:13 PM on June 27

Fuckin' tragedy. :(
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:14 PM on June 27

Yeah, Biden freezing up and losing his place is the end. Dems should go to plan B right fucking now. pick someone else at the convention.
posted by OHenryPacey at 6:14 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

Everybody wanted Roe vs Wade overturned.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:15 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Biden isn't making me want to vote for him. 😨
posted by fiercekitten at 6:15 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Trump is killing it. He's still talking drivel, but he's coherent and vital. Biden is coming off so badly.
posted by essexjan at 6:15 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

After birth abortions!
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:16 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

After birth abortion?!?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:16 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Drug test him.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:16 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Trump is making no sense but sounding confident and alive, Biden sounds confused, lost
posted by dis_integration at 6:16 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

He says lies, but keeps his affect sounding normal. Biden says truths but sounds like he's barely functioning.
posted by emjaybee at 6:17 PM on June 27 [20 favorites]

Yeah, if I read a transcript this wouldn't feel so dire.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:17 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

For us cowards who aren’t watching this, can you please preface your quotes with a B or a T so we know who said it.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:18 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Holy shit Biden is terrible. He's stumbling, losing his place, coughing, mixing up words. Trump is old but acts and speaks like he is twenty years younger.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:18 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

This is shockingly bad. I can’t believe it. Trump is lying constantly but Biden is having a stroke or something.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:18 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Sound and fury, signifying nothing. But Trump will win this one because he can talk and say nonsense and Biden just can’t talk tonight.
posted by zenzenobia at 6:19 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Immigrant rapists. Trump is doing his greatest hits.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:19 PM on June 27

Luckily, most Americans get their news in written, primary source form, so I’m sure the optics won’t matter. *dies inside*
posted by jedicus at 6:19 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

Someone please tell me this is the dems playing 11 dimensional chess for Joe to “gracefully” bow out at the convention and get some dumb centrist on the ballot who doesn’t sound weeks away from the grave
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:19 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

Probably speed: remember that every accusation is a confession, so his talk of Biden using drugs suggests that Trump is on something.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:19 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

T: you can rip the baby out of the womb and kill it in the ninth month or even after birth.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:20 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Biden is waking up... come on dude
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:20 PM on June 27

one guy stumbles and looks like a deer in the headlights the other rambles and lies his ass off

welcome to the decripitude of empire
posted by pyramid termite at 6:20 PM on June 27 [26 favorites]

By the way, watching this is fucking painful.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:21 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

“70% How You Look, 20% How You Sound, 10% What You Say” -- Izzard
posted by zaixfeep at 6:21 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

> Someone please tell me this the dems playing 11 dimensional chess for Joe to “gracefully” bow out at the convention and get some dumb centrist on the ballot who doesn’t sound weeks away from the grave

There's no way this happens. Biden is going to be the nominee barring an act of god
posted by dis_integration at 6:21 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I am only able to take this in small chunks. Hoping Joe warms up and shows some fight soon. I put on a music track in my headphones and then duck in and out because this is torture.

If he loses, I have to somehow move my trans daughter out of this country, and I'm not sure that will work or protect her.

I'm not giving up yet and assuming that's happening, even if the rest of the debate comes off as a win for Trump. But I'm so far from reassured, and I really wanted to feel better tonight.
posted by emjaybee at 6:21 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

I walked out of the tv room and put noise canceling headphones on. I cannot watch this. It’s 2024 and this is our reality. What the actual F
posted by sucre at 6:21 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

He’s coming around thankfully, the night is long…but that first impression. It’s gonna be hard to overcome that versus a lying sack of feces who is somehow completing sentences
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:22 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

> Biden is going to be the nominee barring an act of god

we're a pretty well connected bunch, does anyone have god's phone number
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:22 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

Trump says ‘Brandon.’
posted by box at 6:22 PM on June 27

I have defended Biden here and elsewhere but this is excruciating.

Read on paper his performance wouldn’t be so bad, but on live TV it looks just awful.
posted by ducky l'orange at 6:22 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

This is looking like Taxi: Louie vs Rev. Jim.
posted by zaixfeep at 6:22 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Biden is trying to counter confidently-stated lies with softspoken facts. As a speaking strategy, it's failing. You have to fight back, even if your throat's scratchy. "The guy who told you to DRINK BLEACH created the largest deficit ever", stuff like that. You cannot play nice against evil.

I've given up. There's a Star Trek TNG repeat on one of the deeper over the air channels, I've already flipped over to it.

Best case scenario? Nobody actually watches this, nothing changes.

Worst case scenario? Uh, yeah.
posted by gimonca at 6:23 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

My dog is soothing himself licking at a spot on the rug where the other dog barfed last week and honestly as self care that doesn't sound too bad right now
posted by phunniemee at 6:23 PM on June 27 [30 favorites]

Trump namechecked MEMEMEMEMEMEME
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:23 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

I lasted 24 minutes, had to tap out. This is as bad as I could have imagined for Biden.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:23 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Our republic is going to collapse, because Joe Biden had a cold. Dear God.
posted by jonp72 at 6:23 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

T: I don’t know what he just said. He doesn’t know what he said either.


“Brandon” entered into the record.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:23 PM on June 27

My job involves lots and lots of small talk. I'm so glad I have tomorrow off.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:24 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Biden is being too wonky. He needs to say that after birth abortions are part of a delusional fantasy. He needs to say that immigrants from mental asylums and jails is a hate-filled fantasy.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:24 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Biden appears older, but the orange fascist is Just lying and attacking with falsehood. I would love a scroll in the screen with fact checking.
posted by theora55 at 6:24 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Barring a major turnaround by Biden, this is a disaster. Biden needs to retire and be replaced as the nominee.
posted by Reverend John at 6:24 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

To be fair, I'm making the same open mouthed "WTF is happening?" face that Joe is.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:24 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

“Every single thing he said is a lie.”
posted by box at 6:25 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Oof, Biden's performance is rough. I wonder if this was what it felt like for Nixon supporters during the Nixon/JFK debate.
posted by whir at 6:25 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

B: "Every single thing he said is a lie." YES MORE OF THAT
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:25 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

B: You're the sucker. You're the loser.
posted by jonp72 at 6:26 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

A common bit of White House gossip these days is that Biden gets furious and yells and curses at his staff in private. To me, sounded like normal political narcissist stuff, but I'm starting to think Biden is leaking that rumour to make him seem like he's not on the brink of death
posted by dis_integration at 6:26 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

[let's hope rev jim remembers he probably had piano lessons :-)]
posted by zaixfeep at 6:26 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Trump is starting to ramble on some conspiracy shit.
posted by jonp72 at 6:26 PM on June 27

At least Biden finally hit a Trump button
posted by phunniemee at 6:27 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Trump turns off a lot of people just by being himself, but Biden sounds incoherent.
posted by eagles123 at 6:27 PM on June 27

I am beginning to think debates are impossible in this era of truth being whatever.
posted by zenzenobia at 6:28 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

I am regretting choosing a cider and not straight gin
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:28 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

thank you to all of you who have the strength to watch this and let us know what’s going on. I just cannot stomach it. I had a 3 inch metal plate put in my broken wrist Tuesday morning. That’s enough torture for one week.
posted by tarantula at 6:28 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

man, people are going all-in on despair without saving any for tomorrow's court decision
posted by ryanrs at 6:28 PM on June 27 [36 favorites]

Trump's lies are outrageous, saying Biden encouraged Putin to invade Ukraine. FFS!
posted by essexjan at 6:28 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

I had to turn it off. Kudos to those of you who are strong enough to keep slogging through this.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:29 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

T: if we had a president who puti. Respected he would never have invaded Ukraine
posted by Warren Terra at 6:29 PM on June 27

What's with Trump's hair?
posted by zardoz at 6:29 PM on June 27

Two glasses of wine was Not Enough but I have a job interview tomorrow haha sob
posted by emjaybee at 6:29 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Someone just walked in front of the camera? That's weird.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:29 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Malarkey alert! Drink your drinks folks
posted by dis_integration at 6:30 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

> What's with Trump's hair?

the top bit is CGI
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:30 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Malarkey count - 1
posted by phunniemee at 6:30 PM on June 27

It’s mostly on optics, body language and stuttering. If it was just substance Biden would be doing fine. As Trump gets angrier, he sounds dumber and dumber. Some of Biden’s punches seem to landing.
posted by ducky l'orange at 6:30 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

“Malarkey” entered into the record
posted by Warren Terra at 6:30 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I think Biden is clearest and most lucid when he reminds himself how much he loathes Trump.
posted by jonp72 at 6:31 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

why is trump being allowed to not answer the question about ukraine and why doesn't biden repeat that question?
posted by pyramid termite at 6:31 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Prosthetic combover.
posted by njohnson23 at 6:31 PM on June 27

Speaking time per CNN:

T - 14m 28s
B - 10m 12s
posted by tristeza at 6:32 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Oh no I've looked at both of their ears too much and now their ears seem impossibly large. Is this reality? Is this camera effect? Did I catch Biden's stroke?
posted by phunniemee at 6:32 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

T: I will have the Ukraine war settled between Putin and Zelenskyy when I’m president elect even before I’m in office.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:33 PM on June 27

Gaza time, in case we weren't tense enough
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:33 PM on June 27

oh shit you're right about the ears, did y2karl dose us all?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:34 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

What is he going to be like in 2,3,4 years from now? That’s the problem for the Dems - viewers tonight will be thinking that.

It shouldn’t have to come down to it but Jill Biden needs to step in and tell him.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:35 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

The Biden campaign should have insisted on live fact checking as one of the conditions for this debate. Trump fire hoses lies and nonsense, and no one debating him could possibly refute everything he says fast enough to keep up with him, let alone say anything they want to say in their given time.

Better yet... maybe don't debate such an incompetent, treasonous, criminal, rapist piece of shit at all, as it legitimizes him.
posted by orange swan at 6:35 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

The best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity, and then there's whatever this is.
posted by Crane Shot at 6:35 PM on June 27 [39 favorites]

You cannot beat crazy with wonky.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:35 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

Fuuuuuu
posted by supermedusa at 6:35 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Now i can't see anything but their giant ears
posted by dis_integration at 6:35 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

omg kill me now.
posted by flamk at 6:35 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

I get the sense Biden is burdened by facts, age, and a stutter.
posted by mazola at 6:36 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

T: you need to make Europe cough up money for nato like I did.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:36 PM on June 27

and ears
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:36 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

watch the debate
political dread
they ears too big for they got damn head
posted by phunniemee at 6:37 PM on June 27 [25 favorites]

[while this is going on, Gavin Newsom is working the 'spin room' offstage and now I believe I understand why...]
posted by zaixfeep at 6:38 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

This is a very odd answer to a straightforward question about Palestine.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:38 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Rule update for second debate: if the speaker isn’t addressing the question on the table in the first 15 seconds, the speaker’s mic will be turned off and he will lose the rest of his time.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:39 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Trump won’t answer the questions.
posted by zenzenobia at 6:39 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

T: on January 6th we were respected all over the world
posted by phunniemee at 6:39 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Men's ears do grow and get bigger with age.
posted by essexjan at 6:39 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

oooh Tapper reasked the question
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:39 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Trump keeps pivoting to his wacky, but confident taking points. Biden keeps dropping literally every opportunity to call him out and mumbling canned lines about meagre process improvements. What a fucking disaster. I'm going to start stockpiling munitions and food in anticipation of the next Trump presidency.
posted by Panjandrum at 6:40 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Trump is rambling when he isn’t lying fluently.
posted by zenzenobia at 6:40 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

T has already filled a notional Olympic swimming pool with lies.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:40 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I don't even know what munitions are but sure, I'll get some next time I'm at Costco.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:41 PM on June 27

brb filling my pockets with ears and walking into the sea
posted by phunniemee at 6:41 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

JOE NEEDS A CAFFEINATED TOOTHPICK
posted by clavdivs at 6:41 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Speaking time per CNN:

T - 19m 11s
B - 13m 31s
posted by tristeza at 6:41 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

oh no leave Seattle out of this buddy
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:42 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

convicted felon tag
posted by clavdivs at 6:42 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I thought they were supposed to have timers and hard stop microphones to keep their times equal.
posted by sunnybird at 6:43 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

CONVICTED FELON
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:43 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

this is how I learn that my CNN feed is a minute delayed
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:43 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

T: unselect committee destroyed all of the evidence because they found out we were right.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:43 PM on June 27

When is the first commercial break?
posted by Reverend John at 6:44 PM on June 27

This is awful
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:44 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Biden is sounding better in that he’s not freezing and drifting off into non-sequitors, which is probably the bar he has to clear, but it’s very disquieting to listen as a con man and someone in obvious cognitive decline debate foreign policy potentially involving nuclear weapons or at the very least conventional conflicts larger than anything seen since the Second World War.
posted by eagles123 at 6:44 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

Aren't we all convicted felons, really?
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:45 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Men's ears do grow and get bigger with age.
When I was taking a medical school class in anatomy, I had the notes from the previous year's lecture. It mentioned that when the professor said ears and nose grow larger with age someone in the class shouted out "Oh no!'
When the professor said the same thing again this year, I shouted out, "Oh no!" to keep up the tradition.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:45 PM on June 27 [27 favorites]

it's halftime, Joe needs to switch tactics quit staring, get across a couple points then adlib and poke the hell out of the f*****
posted by clavdivs at 6:45 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Biden having equal time wouldn’t help, maybe it would hurt. Trump is nonstop lies, but Biden isn’t even conceivable as a president. I am completely demoralized.
posted by snofoam at 6:45 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

Counter proposal: this would be a good time to start a campaign to have Jake Tapper driven from his broadcast career, for being a willing participant in this crime.
posted by gimonca at 6:45 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

oh shit you're right about the ears, did y2karl dose us all?

Contact high, me pretties, contact high. Consider yourselves socially mediated.
posted by y2karl at 6:45 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

T: we have a system which is rigged and disgusting. I did nothing wrong.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:45 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

B: What are you talking about? You have the morals of an alley cat.
posted by jonp72 at 6:45 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

"i didn't have sex with a porn star" - i couldn't get it up
posted by pyramid termite at 6:46 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

B: you have the morals of an alleycat
posted by Warren Terra at 6:46 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Ah, the old presidential debate cliché "I didn't have sex with a porn star".
posted by Crane Shot at 6:46 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

He's bragging about his grift.
posted by Catblack at 6:47 PM on June 27

rude to cats tbh
posted by phunniemee at 6:47 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

Leave the cats out of this.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:47 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

I hope no one is watching this debate, but it doesn’t matter. If this is Biden at his best, he can’t win. It hurts me to say it, but Ezra Klein was right.
posted by snofoam at 6:47 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Is Trump still under a gag order about mentioning his case and the judge.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:47 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

The moderators should not be addressing TFG as President Trump.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:48 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

> The moderators should not be addressing TFG as President Trump

Eh, that's convention -- you get to be called by military titles, too, I believe.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:48 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

The alleycat line, pretty good, but also seems like what a posh Englishman would say to a Robert Mitchum character in a 1945 noir
posted by dis_integration at 6:48 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

rid the look of messalina, Joe
posted by clavdivs at 6:49 PM on June 27

Biden is not at his best
posted by supermedusa at 6:49 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I put it back on, and the debate is still awful, but Biden's WTF face is hilarious.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:49 PM on June 27

Trump: I never said there were fine people on both sides.
posted by zenzenobia at 6:49 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

“Dark Heart of the Blue City,” Jeff Sharlet, Scenes from a Slow Civil War, 27 June 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 6:50 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

This is the definition of why you don't wrestle with a pig. Just having to engage with Trump diminishes Biden. Trump just pulls him into debating nonsensical bullshit.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:50 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

Can we have an aide give Biden one of those coffee enemas real quick please
posted by phunniemee at 6:50 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Oh my god three beers and a glass of bourbon haven't been enough it's only half time
posted by The Outsider at 6:50 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

The alleycat line, pretty good, but also seems like what a posh Englishman would say to a Robert Mitchum character in a 1945 noir

I view it more as "corny things that only crusty old white guys say," like, say, "malarkey." To be honest, I tend to think these corny saying tend to make Biden more relatable.
posted by jonp72 at 6:51 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Can we have an aide give Biden one of those coffee enemas real quick please

Dark Brandon indeed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:51 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

Well, I thought I would have a lot to say, but what is there to say, the choices are clear, the optics terrible, the format is good, and the state of our politics is grim.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 6:52 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

phunniemee: “Yooo what's everybody stress eating tonight?”

So far most of a large pizza and one chocolate lava cake. Having read through only some of the thread since the debate started, I may wind up eating the rest.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:52 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I like and trust Biden as a person and as a president as much or more than just about any other realistic alternative. But this performance is a disaster and its hard to see him coming back from it, and I think its going to sink his candidacy. I hope smart people in the Democratic party are thinking about plan B right now.
posted by Reverend John at 6:53 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

The thing about Ezra Klein is, swapping in a random Dem could easily go just as bad/lose as many voters. Or more. There was never any clear-cute One Secret Way to Beat TFG.
posted by emjaybee at 6:53 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

I did not prepare a strategic ice cream reserve for this.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:53 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

The choice is still between a stale ham sandwich and a plate of shit.
posted by mazola at 6:53 PM on June 27 [24 favorites]

I'm not sure I can make it to the end.
posted by Reverend John at 6:53 PM on June 27

At least they aren't interrupting each other like last time. That's the only upside I can see.
posted by lianove3 at 6:54 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Biden checking his notes, reading from something. oof
posted by dis_integration at 6:54 PM on June 27

Seth Abramson on Twitter:

"Biden is getting feisty—and is now officially winning this debate. I think there’s no question about it. He hasn’t lost his train of thought in 30 minutes, he has perfect recall of facts, he is not stuttering, he has Trump angry and rambling, and Biden is *not* backing down."

God, I sure hope no one only watched the first 10 minutes of the debate. Biden lost those. Since then, he is *decimating* Trump. I have never seen Biden on the attack like this. This is the clearest he has ever been on the attack, possibly this century.
posted by orange swan at 6:57 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

The thing about Ezra Klein is, swapping in a random Dem could easily go just as bad/lose as many voters. Or more. There was never any clear-cute One Secret Way to Beat TFG.

I'm sure they all would have sounded like this. But I guess we'll never know!
posted by Gadarene at 6:57 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Dark Brandon indeed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:51 PM on June 27

eponysomethingorother
posted by y2karl at 6:57 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

This is breaking me.
posted by Warren Terra at 6:57 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

apropos of nothing

What happens if a US presidential candidate dies?

posted by lalochezia at 6:58 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

This is screaming out for an "at long last, have you no sense of decency?" moment, and it's just not happening.
posted by Crane Shot at 6:58 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

I remember reading once about Wall Street traders shouting so much that they'd chug Chloraseptic straight from the bottle. No idea why that came to mind.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:58 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Seth Abramson on Twitter

I wonder what the alternate universe he's tweeting from is like.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:58 PM on June 27 [20 favorites]

y2karl

You are a braver man than I, y2karl...
(An hour or so behind on the thread...)
((Can't handle real time yet. Here's hoping sharks and shit))
posted by Windopaene at 6:59 PM on June 27

I appreciate Seth Abramson's attempt to spin this but, oh boy.
posted by Reverend John at 6:59 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Biden: "I don't blame [Black voters] for being disappointed."
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:59 PM on June 27

The thing about Ezra Klein is, swapping in a random Dem could easily go just as bad/lose as many voters. Or more. There was never any clear-cute One Secret Way to Beat TFG.

Agree, but watching this it is clear that Biden cannot win, but there’s a slim chance that someone else could.
posted by snofoam at 6:59 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

We're lucky that, despite Biden's confused jumble of an answer on Black incomes, Trump cannot say the word "Black" without sounding like he means to say... another word
posted by dis_integration at 7:00 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

T: people he is letting through the border are taking Black jobs.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:00 PM on June 27

Democrats, you still have time. Nominate Newsom or somebody at the convention instead and let Joe retire.
posted by Rash at 7:00 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

I can see Biden had a near stutter moment where he was probably trying to say "malpractice" but he recovered with "malfeasance."

Are we going to lose our democracy because of a cold and a stutter?
posted by jonp72 at 7:01 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

cut off trumps\/s damn mike if he won't answer the damn question
posted by pyramid termite at 7:01 PM on June 27

Mister Central Park Five is blaming Biden for "super predators"?!?
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:02 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

We don't have a time machine, but we have voting machines, so the fact that the conman has pep shouldn't distract us about how dangerous the conmans plans are.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 7:02 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

I’m half listening and following along on Threads. People are freaking out but have seemed to calm down and say Biden is doing better but are worried the first 10 minutes mean that won’t matter.

My hopium is that it’s only June.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:02 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

I like and trust Biden as a person and as a president as much or more than just about any other realistic alternative. But this performance is a disaster and it’s hard to see him coming back from it, and I think it’s going to sink his candidacy. I hope smart people in the Democratic party are thinking about plan B right now.

If voters are going to look past the fact that Trump is a felon, that he tried to use an insurrection to stay in office, that he is a serial liar, that he was tear-gassing peaceful protestors so go could do a photo op, that he had unidentified men in unmarked vans abducting people, that he completely and maliciously mismanaged the pandemic, that he openly sucks up to dictators, that he has appointed a Supreme Court that has destroyed most hope for this country for the next few decades… then the debate is not the problem and no democratic candidate can win.
posted by azpenguin at 7:02 PM on June 27 [35 favorites]

This discussion could use some Lonesome Rhodes.
posted by zaixfeep at 7:02 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

T: We had H20.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 7:03 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Yeah I don't think it would be a great show if Biden (who fought desegregation!) and Trump got into who was more racist-off
posted by dis_integration at 7:03 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I hope the moderators don't let Trump get away with ignoring the climate change question.
posted by Reverend John at 7:03 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Democrats, you still have time. Nominate Newsom or somebody at the convention instead and let Joe retire.

We have an actual vice president who is supposed to replace Biden in case of incapacity already. But I guess we have to have all those "Kamala is a cop" folks from 2020 reinforcing Republican framings.

Besides, Newsom is completely shit on labor issues.
posted by jonp72 at 7:03 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

If a cold and a stutter is all it takes to lose a democracy, we didn't deserve to have one in the first place.
posted by dannyboybell at 7:03 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Democrats, you still have time. Nominate Newsom or somebody at the convention instead and let Joe retire.

Warren (faaaaaaaar sharper than Biden even today, and a number of years younger). Whitmer. Harris. Whoever.

Newsom is execrable, though.
posted by Gadarene at 7:03 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

Trump’s climate policy: “Clean water and clean air”

God help us all.
posted by mazola at 7:04 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Man oh man, Biden really has aged considerably in 4 years. Jeez. I don't doubt his mental acuity, but part of being a leader is creating excitement, being someone that others will follow into battle.

Having said that, debates don't really move the needle much, and by election day this debate will be forgotten, no matter who "wins" it.
posted by zardoz at 7:04 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Yeah I don't think it would be a great show if Biden (who fought desegregation!) and Trump got into who was more racist-off

...I don't think we want to be talking about Joe "anti-busing" Biden and desegregation.
posted by Gadarene at 7:04 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

This is a fucking nightmare
posted by jy4m at 7:05 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Warren (faaaaaaaar sharper than Biden even today, and a number of years younger). Whitmer. Harris. Whoever.

Newsom is execrable, though.

This right here is why they can't replace Biden. Nobody would ever be able to agree on who to replace him with.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 7:05 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

Newsflash: Trump doesn't like immigrants.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:05 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

T: He is destroying social security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:06 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Also everyone who wants to leapfrog over Harris does so at the risk of alienating the most loyal Democratic voting bloc.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:06 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

This is exactly like watching election returns in 2016.
posted by snofoam at 7:06 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

I don't doubt his mental acuity

I didn't until tonight!
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:06 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

This right here is why they can't replace Biden. Nobody would ever be able to agree on who to replace him with.

"I don't belong to an organized political party. I am a Democrat."--Will Rogers
posted by jonp72 at 7:07 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

If a cold and a stutter is all it takes to lose a democracy, we didn't deserve to have one in the first place.

One person on this stage is a convicted felon who easily seized his party's nomination despite being involved in multiple trials and the January 6 incident. He currently stands a very good chance of winning a close election. At this point it doesn't even matter if he doesn't win, it's over. We've lost. Trump is personally repugnant and would be a disaster but he's just a symptom.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:07 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

Repo! The Genetic Opera - more watchable than the debate.
posted by bunderful at 7:08 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Biden's one job tonight was to not look like a senile, decrepit old man. Literally just do that and you win points. He has not won points tonight.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:08 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

Nobody would ever be able to agree on who to replace him with.

My dog is just about finished licking the spot on the carpet so his calendar is about to clear up.
posted by phunniemee at 7:08 PM on June 27 [37 favorites]

T: Everything he does is a lie

DARVO bingo card, anyone?
posted by The Outsider at 7:09 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Has anyone done a "The idea that ..." count?
posted by essexjan at 7:09 PM on June 27

Ugh. Biden needed a shot of B12 and better talking points.
posted by ovvl at 7:09 PM on June 27

trump you damn dumb ass - if we stop those millions and millions of immigrants, who's going to work to pay social security

we can open the doors or go broke
posted by pyramid termite at 7:10 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

I spent three hours today interviewing applicants for a low-status but important job. Almost every person I talked to today did better at their interviews than these guys. (Tapper has better hair than I do, though.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:11 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

T: I fire people. His guy doesn’t fire anybody.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:11 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

there are times that I miss Ross Perot
posted by clavdivs at 7:12 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

no one wants to screw around with us
posted by clavdivs at 7:12 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

"They're Mexi-cans, not Mexi-can't's."

(OK, fake, but plausible at this point.)
posted by wenestvedt at 7:13 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I miss the old guy in a VP debate a few years ago who turned off his hearing aid mid-debate.
posted by essexjan at 7:13 PM on June 27

I guess we're just not going to answer the childcare question.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:13 PM on June 27

B: 159 Presidential historians voted Trump the worst president.

Me: this is an awful talking point.
posted by Reverend John at 7:13 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

The loudest news story coming out of this debate will be democrats bemoaning biden's performance, and that will harm him.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 7:13 PM on June 27 [18 favorites]

Trump doesn't care about childcare.
posted by elwoodwiles at 7:13 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I think it is clear that Biden lost the election tonight, but on closer inspection, he actually lost the election several years ago by not adequately positioning Harris or someone else as his successor candidate.
posted by snofoam at 7:14 PM on June 27 [43 favorites]

I really hate this sequel to Grumpy Old Men.
posted by jonp72 at 7:14 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Debating who has been voted the worst president ever is not useful.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:14 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

Okay, I lasted 5 minutes.
posted by swift at 7:15 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I’m just really distracted by whatever is going on with Trump’s hair(piece?)
posted by donut_princess at 7:15 PM on June 27

Democrats being honest about Biden is not what will lose this election.
posted by snofoam at 7:15 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

I think Biden should keep playing the "people decided you were the worst president ever" card - it seems to have gotten under T's skin.
posted by The Outsider at 7:15 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Biden doesn't seem to care about childcare either. That's a woman's concern, after all. Doesn't surprise me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:15 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Part of the problem is I think Biden is trying to get too many thoughts out. He's better with slower stronger statements. He's also trying to insert details and facts. That's tripping him up.
posted by mazola at 7:16 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

Trump doesn't care about childcare.

he doesn't care about the climate, ukraine, or the middle east crisis, either

he can't even be bothered to talk about it
posted by pyramid termite at 7:16 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Truth is hard. :(
posted by mazola at 7:16 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I think it is clear that Biden lost the election tonight

Biden's performance did indeed start off terrible, but the election is five ish months away and there's a second debate coming. Let's not count him out just yet.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:16 PM on June 27 [28 favorites]

I think all of that debate prep Biden did was a big mistake. They should have let him nap, eat his Wheaties (or oatmeal) and rest up his speaking voice, not overworked him to the point he has nothing left in the tank for the tonight.

This is so bad of a performance that he lost (the debate and most likely the election) the first second they showed him on the screen looking tired and confused. There are shots of him while Trump is talking where Biden looks like he doesn't know his own name and is barely able to stand. And that's not even addressing what he's saying and how he's saying it.
posted by sardonyx at 7:16 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

pyramid termite, Thom Hartmann has your answer: all those non-aborted poor children and their parents will do all that work because they will be locked out of anything better.
posted by zaixfeep at 7:16 PM on June 27

T: he’s a Manchurian candidate.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:17 PM on June 27

Since Trump won't answer it maybe his plan is for the unminded children to solve the opioid crisis.
posted by phunniemee at 7:17 PM on June 27

I think T should keep making that pouty face so that people see what a terrible Blue Steel he gives.
posted by The Outsider at 7:17 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I knew Trump was going to bring immigration into the addiction question.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 7:17 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

T: like nobody’s ever seen before ^130
posted by Warren Terra at 7:18 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

ob1quixote: “ I may wind up eating the rest.”

Update: I ate all three lava cakes and now I'm watching Sarah eat from Japanese convenience stores for the day.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:18 PM on June 27

Is it even worth holding a second debate? who would watch after this?
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:18 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

OK, asking about opioids is a good way to make Trump even more incoherent.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:18 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Is it even worth holding a second debate? who would watch after this?

Like this comment if you hate yourself enough to do it
posted by phunniemee at 7:19 PM on June 27 [27 favorites]

...How did T get from opioid crisis to releasing that guy from Russia?
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 7:20 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

"I paid essentially nothing." I'm sure anyone who's worked with Trump would agree.
posted by Crane Shot at 7:20 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

my God this is painful
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

This is just terribly managed. Neither of them are addressing the questions. Is there some rule that the moderators can't interrupt them no matter what they say?
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:21 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

This is physically painful to watch. Half of me wants to just turn this off and (to the extent possible) never think about politics again, and the other half wants to find another gear and fight like hell to keep Trump out. I can't believe we could have a convicted felon president.

OMG, I can't believe how Biden's answering the "well into his 80s" question. This is a disaster.
posted by netowl at 7:21 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

The moderators need a buzzer. "BZZZT! Answer the question, please."
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 7:21 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I wonder if this is what the first Reagan Mondale debate was like.
posted by eagles123 at 7:22 PM on June 27

Biden should've just pointed to his right and kept repeating four words: "I'm not this guy."
posted by Crane Shot at 7:22 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

T: knock on wood wherever we have wood...
posted by porpoise at 7:22 PM on June 27

And we have COGNITIVE TEST on the bingo card!
posted by The Outsider at 7:23 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

My hands... they're so tiny.
posted by y2karl at 7:23 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

T: I aced two cognitive tests.

I just won two golf championships.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:23 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Biden has absolutely blown this as bad as it could be blown. I don't know what's going to happen in November, but Biden does not appear fit to be President by any stretch. Trump's saying crazy stuff non-stop that I could refute unprepped while beating my teenage son at table tennis. And shit, I'm 54.

I feel like I need to learn to shoot an AR-15 or something so I can protect my immigrant neighbors.

I also feel like I've drunk the progressive podcast Kool-Aid. They been telling everyone that "behind closed doors, people say Biden is very sharp in meetings". I sort of believed it until tonight.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:23 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

Biden is now fat-shaming Trump. Normally I'd object to body-shaming, but I'll make an exception here.
posted by essexjan at 7:23 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Biden finally smiled. Trump is claiming he aced his cognitive tests.
posted by zenzenobia at 7:23 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Metafilter: more watchable than the debate.
posted by Catblack at 7:23 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

As pathetic as this is the choice is still crystal clear Stay strong America.
posted by mazola at 7:23 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Good god, we're debating who's better at golf?
posted by elwoodwiles at 7:24 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

YESSSS BRING UP THE HEIGHT LIE YESSS
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:24 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

golf banter
posted by clavdivs at 7:24 PM on June 27

God they’re debating golf.
posted by zenzenobia at 7:24 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Also I don't give a fuck about golf.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:24 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

(golfing crosstalk) WHAT THE HELL IS THIS
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:24 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

And we've reached the HOW MUCH U LIFT BRO stage of the debate.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:24 PM on June 27 [17 favorites]

OMG, we have complete broken down over golf.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 7:24 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Boy, after that Golf answer, democracy really looks bad.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 7:24 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

JFC they’re challenging each other to a golf game.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:24 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

They're debating their golf handicap?!

This country is doomed.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:24 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Trump upper lip sweat enters the chat
posted by phunniemee at 7:25 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

jebus, I thought they were going to start hurting Titleist' at each other
posted by clavdivs at 7:25 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Watching the discourse here reminds me of when Biden wiped Bernie out on Super Tuesday in 2020. A lot of the same pronouncements about how bad a candidate he was, he can’t win, blah blah blah. Look, even if Biden won this debate in a knockout the press would spin it to trump because they need their precious horserace narrative. Is this ideal? No. There’s also still five months to the election, people aren’t really paying attention yet and a lot can happen in five months. If people still decide to vote for trump there’s no Dem candidate that would have won. (Trump wanted Bernie to get the nomination for a reason - he’d have boatraced him.) So I’m not panicking yet. But yeah keep your fantasy up of Biden being replaced by a new candidate, because short of severe incapacity or death that is all it is - fantasy. (Someone said the Dems should run Newsom? That’s fucking comedy.)
posted by azpenguin at 7:25 PM on June 27 [19 favorites]

The democracy does not go well, Enterprise.
posted by audi alteram partem at 7:25 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

This is undeniably horrible, just worse than I could have imagined, but I think there's about 0.0 percent of the population whose vote will be changed by any of it

What the media, which is desperate for another Trump administration will do with it, is another story

That might actually shift some votes
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:25 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

T: "I'd be at one of my many places, enjoying myself."
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 7:25 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Did TFG just say to not act like children and then launch into that rant like he was an 8 year old? I've been keeping him on mute while I listen to this, but now I'm laughing my ass off.
posted by Catblack at 7:26 PM on June 27

trump has one problem - he's sounding like a broken record - people will get tired of it - perhaps they already are
posted by pyramid termite at 7:26 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Okay I can't imagine Reagan and Mondale having an exchange that fucking stupid. We're facing potential wars with Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea and this is the shit we get. Anyone remember when Obama signed a nuclear deal with Iran? That was awesome.
posted by eagles123 at 7:27 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

the Republican follow-up, Prince of Wallachia
posted by clavdivs at 7:27 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

This was like The Rage vs The Dying of the Light
posted by Crane Shot at 7:27 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Metafilter: The question was...
posted by The Outsider at 7:27 PM on June 27

They, and Biden, won’t press Trump on whether he will accept the results of the election.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:27 PM on June 27

people will get tired of it

No they won't. They haven't yet.
posted by phunniemee at 7:28 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Earlier Trump appeared to say H2O when he meant CO2. Biden is not sharp enough for this. He needs to step down, or plan to step down as soon as he gets elected.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:28 PM on June 27

My copies of the new “Democracy Or Else” book from Crooked Media arrived today. Looks like we may be finding out about that “Or Else” option in painful detail here pretty soon….
posted by inflatablekiwi at 7:28 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I can't believe this website has lost its mojo so bad? How are we letting these absurd comments about Biden's age and vitality stand?

What happened to confidently believing that anyone who says such a thing is giving themselves away as a Russian bot or totally unsatisfiable Commie?
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:28 PM on June 27 [17 favorites]

This right here is why they can't replace Biden. Nobody would ever be able to agree on who to replace him with.

I guess my comment wasn't clear enough about the vast galaxy of Democratic candidates who I would support as the nominee and would have a decent or better chance at outperforming a decrepit Biden.

But I draw the line at Gavin fucking Newsom.
posted by Gadarene at 7:28 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Are you a bot?
posted by mazola at 7:29 PM on June 27

> my God this is painful
> posted by clavdivs

"I knew things were bad when clavdivs made a comment in plain English, without any phonetic spellings or oblique references to books I hadn't read or fields I hadn't done graduate work in."
posted by Rat Spatula at 7:29 PM on June 27 [57 favorites]

Earlier Trump appeared to say H2O when he meant CO2.

No, that's just his talking points. Since even the 2016 campaign, Trump's answer on climate has been "I'm for clean air and water," as if it answers the question, so as to say he's an environmentalist but not acknowledging climate change.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:29 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

B: you’re a whiner
posted by Warren Terra at 7:29 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

B: You can't stand loss. Something snapped in you last time.
posted by jonp72 at 7:29 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

For context, I've been team "rah rah we need to all support Biden" in many other threads, but I'm truly appalled. MY 91-year-old dad has dementia and is in assisted living and he's watching this and coming up with better rebuttals of Trump. I wish I was joking.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:30 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

b - "something snapped in you when you lost the last time"

brutal
posted by pyramid termite at 7:30 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

It should be over. Why isn’t it over?
posted by pearlybob at 7:30 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Audreynachrome: are you watching the same debate as I am? I wish Biden had given us something to spin, but this has gone as bad as it could.
posted by Reverend John at 7:30 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

B: you can’t stand loss. Something snapped in you when you lost last time.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:30 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Wait, wasn't this supposed to be 90 minutes? Shouldn't it be over? Please, could it be over?!?
posted by Crane Shot at 7:30 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

it's not gonna be over until 2028 - maybe
posted by pyramid termite at 7:32 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I hope this is closing statements after the break.
posted by Reverend John at 7:32 PM on June 27

Audreynachrome: are you watching the same debate as I am?

I think the original comment was sarcastic.
posted by snofoam at 7:32 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Audreynachrome: are you watching the same debate as I am? I wish Biden had given us something to spin, but this has gone as bad as it could.

Presumably that was a jab at people on this website being dismissive when the issue of Biden’s health was raised in the past!
posted by atoxyl at 7:32 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Closing statements
posted by porpoise at 7:33 PM on June 27

2024, same trump, worse biden, the country hangs in the balance, the good guys have to both win the votes and fend off the insurrection, the bad guys just have to either get the votes or win in the streets. If you are watching this, and horrified like I am, recommit to defeating fascism in the ballot boxes and in the streets.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 7:33 PM on June 27 [36 favorites]

Shouldn't it be over? Please, could it be over?!?

The Soylent Green suicide booth plays Beethoven's 6th. Mine plays the CNN live streaming we will be right back from this break jingle.
posted by phunniemee at 7:34 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Oh lord Biden has lost his voice and vigor just in time for his closing statement.
posted by Warren Terra at 7:34 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

So what are people doing as a palate cleanser before going to bed? I'm thinking an episode of Father Brown.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:34 PM on June 27

Oh lord Biden has lost his voice and vigor

y'all got voice and vigor?
posted by phunniemee at 7:35 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Biden’s career is over, and despite accomplishing a lot in his term, he will forever be remembered as the RBG president who is responsible for destroying the republic because he didn’t have the self-awareness and humility to step down when he should have.
posted by snofoam at 7:35 PM on June 27 [25 favorites]

So what are people doing as a palate cleanser before going to bed?

Cocaine and dreams.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:35 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

She pushed him 3 times about accepting election results, he said “If”.
posted by theora55 at 7:36 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Did Trump just say, "Notice he didn't stop Israel"? I have to ask just to make sure I'm failing to process this because I'm having a stroke. This whole debate is making me think, "Am I having a stroke? A stroke would be preferable."
posted by jonp72 at 7:36 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Biden’s career is over, and despite accomplishing a lot in his term, he will forever be remembered as the RBG president who is responsible for destroying the republic because he didn’t hav ethe self-awareness and humility to step down when he should have.

lol
posted by azpenguin at 7:37 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

So what are people doing as a palate cleanser before going to bed?

More gin than I've had already.
posted by mollweide at 7:37 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

Thank goodness this is over.
posted by netowl at 7:38 PM on June 27

What a country!
posted by stet at 7:38 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

'casuse yeah, Biden's closing statement was awful. Credit to Trump for at least appearing sane, until he opened his mouth.

Long term, the stakes are still low for Joe. If he does even 15% better at the second debate, it'll be a win. Meanwhile Trump will be just the same.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:38 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Well, plan B people?

I like the Warren suggestion.
posted by Reverend John at 7:38 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Did they shake hands at the end?
posted by mazola at 7:38 PM on June 27

It's nearly 4am here, I am going to bed and will try not to think about how awful things are for you guys. It can't be Trump, please God*, it can't be.




*and I am an atheist.
posted by essexjan at 7:38 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

lol

I wish.
posted by snofoam at 7:38 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Olbermann's post-debate show here "Biden vs Tag team of CNN + Trump"
posted by zaixfeep at 7:39 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Sarah Cooper's livestream of the debate was the only way to watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bArdSLUIOms
posted by dougfelt at 7:39 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Welp that was terrifying.
posted by mazola at 7:39 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

fwiw I think the debate broke some Washington Post reporters? I was following their live stream but they seem to have just... given up?... about 45 mins before the end. Or maybe it was just on my laptop.
posted by EllaEm at 7:40 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I don't think it matters to most people that Biden fumbled this. Unfortunately, 2020 was decided by <60,000 voters spread across the three states that had him over the finish line so if even <1% of dem voters nationally, in whatever the three swing states end up being this time, stay home... yeah.

Biden won by thin hair after Trump had scandal a day for four years, a six figure COVID body count, a cratered economy, and multiple crimes. The only hope I've got is that the voters who have been reliably putting the dems up +20 in special elections also pull the lever for Biden while they're in the booth.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:40 PM on June 27 [20 favorites]

Daniel Dale is going to earn his pay tonight, for sure.
posted by darkstar at 7:40 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I'm going to bed too. I think if you are super informed like many of us, or the various podcasters and pundits, you can do some mental interpolation to make sense of Biden, or to pin down exactly how Trump lied. But the *vast* majority of people need and want it spelled out for them, and that's the job of a good debater. Biden's always been better at governing than debating, but the relief I felt when he gave a solid SoTU has been shattered. I've just heard that he has a cold, but I don't think "easily felled by a minor cold" is a great look.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:41 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

I like the Warren suggestion.

That's my cue to duck out of this thread before people start reflexively bashing her, but from Twitter:

"Y’all could’ve had Warren in 2020. Y’all could’ve had a fighter who punches so hard that Bloomberg literally lit half a billion dollars on fire just to torpedo her campaign."

(and instead she torpedoed his, in the space of one debate)

Warren reaches people when she speaks, her brother died of COVID, she is absolutely brilliant, a fighter and a dreamer, prescient and tenacious, she could have won and been a goddamn tremendous president.

Alas.
posted by Gadarene at 7:42 PM on June 27 [100 favorites]

Long term, the stakes are still low for Joe. If he does even 15% better at the second debate, it'll be a win. Meanwhile Trump will be just the same.

To be clear, Trump is already ahead in the states where it counts. Biden just got further behind, and shows no indication he has the capacity to turn things around. He wasn’t able to make effective arguments or even sound like someone who can breathe well enough to live another four years.
posted by snofoam at 7:42 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

Also I thought the moderators were more than fair to Biden. I feel like they needed their own "what if it's a shitshow and neither guy makes any sense for the whole time" prep sessions.
posted by caviar2d2 at 7:43 PM on June 27

So, according to CBC post analysis, the issues are: energy levels vs things that aren't true.

They're not wrong but holy smoke those aren't equal!
posted by mazola at 7:43 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

@EllaEm, I'm seeing the same lack of updates, fwiw
posted by isauteikisa at 7:44 PM on June 27

Also, JFC. He has a cold? And we learn that after they've just started shouting near each other?

The dark mirror of when Trump nearly kicked it from covid in 2020 around that one debate.
posted by Slackermagee at 7:44 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

I wish

Yeah, because everything in this country has been going peachy keen for so long and Biden is the one who would end that. It’s not like a bunch of purity testers stayed home or voted for Stein in 2016 which let Trump win. It’s not like a lot of people who couldn’t be bothered to have paid attention to the previous ten years stayed home in the 2010 midterms which allowed the republicans to gerrymander the fuck out of the country. It’s not like there were a bunch of Nader voters who thought they were making a statement in 2000 and 2004 fucked the country.
posted by azpenguin at 7:45 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

CNN post-debate coverage is hilarious: everyone is talking about how freaked out Democrats are, and David Axelrod is getting rained on somehow.
posted by netowl at 7:46 PM on June 27

It’s not like a bunch of purity testers stayed home or voted for Stein in 2016 which let Trump win

It’s not like that, correct.
posted by atoxyl at 7:46 PM on June 27 [24 favorites]

The chess term for this situation is zugzwang.
posted by swift at 7:47 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

the fox wrap up looks like they used 10,000 rolls of duct tape

why am I watching Fox

OMG
posted by clavdivs at 7:48 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

So what are people doing as a palate cleanser before going to bed?

Bath bomb. Ativan. Fluffy kittens.

Not necessarily in that order.
posted by thivaia at 7:49 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

God, that was fucking brutal. Glad I had the presence of mind to buy my annual summer purchase of gin beforehand, but good lord. I really, really, hope the Democrats do the right thing and invent some reason that allows Biden to step down without too much embarrassment, and then nominate literally anyone else. I know this sounds a bit improbable, but I kinda like the idea of Kamala Harris as President + Bernie Sanders as VP.
posted by coffeecat at 7:53 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

This country is absolutely not going to elect Kamala Harris this year. There is no way.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:56 PM on June 27 [21 favorites]

Also everyone who wants to leapfrog over Harris does so at the risk of alienating the most loyal Democratic voting bloc.

Okay then Joe should announce, upon some reflection, his intention to bow out of this race, in time for the convention to nominate Kamela, Newsom as her possible running-mate. Love to see the Harris-Trump debate.
posted by Rash at 7:57 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Okay when is the debate between Pence's head fly and RFK Jr's dead brain worm
posted by phunniemee at 7:57 PM on June 27 [17 favorites]

“Countdown With Keith Olbermann - Biden-Trump Debate Post Game Show” [Live]—Keith Olbermann, 27 June 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:00 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I'm so thrilled that we're all able to seize this moment to rehash the 2020 primaries! What a great use of our time and energy.
posted by knotty knots at 8:01 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Look I hate Genocide Joe as much as the next guy, and won’t be voting for him, but there simply is no way the sclerotic dem leadership replaces him, and given the huge incumbency and name recognition advantage, they shouldn’t. It’s not like they have a viable alternative candidate either.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:01 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Very doubtful Biden will be replaced or step down. It's possible in the sense that anything is possible, but I don't see it.

I'm not so much voting for Biden, but voting for someone to choose the next Supreme Court seats. In my somewhat better world, Biden would be running, but the reality is that he is and he absolutely is the better choice.

Now, if Nikki Haley could find a way, people would probably rally around her, but that's not happening either. So here we, holding our nose again. It sucks, but it is what it is.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:01 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

If Democrats lose the White House, they need to keep 51 seats to maintain Senate control. Either that independent Osborn guy needs to make a surprise win in Nebraska, or Allred needs to squeak past the execrable Ted Cruz in Texas, or sentient reptilian Rick Scott finally loses in Florida....okay, all longshots, and all assuming that no other Democratic senator loses a seat. But hey, it could happen. Maybe.

Democrats taking back the House is a possibility, probably a somewhat more likely one.

The conventional wisdom that weakness at the top of the ballot will affect downballot candidates isn't applying this year. Biden's problems are Biden's, but they don't seem to be rubbing off on Senate, House or Governor candidates at this point.
posted by gimonca at 8:03 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

You know, I was holding out hope that Biden would just perform basic competence, that the election would play out and that enough people would vote for the stale ham sandwich over the plate of shit that we could begin to move forward, seriously address climate change, address the international crises without the complication of electoral politics, and have hope for a better future.

A second Trump term is a nightmare.
posted by Reverend John at 8:03 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Live broadcast of Biden’s watch party. He looks old and confused. Jill is trying to pump them up.
posted by Warren Terra at 8:03 PM on June 27

America is not a country full of smart people who want Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders or Kamala Harris to be president. That would be lovely, but it's not the case. America is a country that is struggling HARD with questions like 'is fascism bad?', and 'should women be allowed to decide whether to have babies?' Old white guys look like the general public's idea of Who Should Be In Charge, and there's not a lot of deep thought going into it beyond that. If there were, Trump couldn't be a serious candidate. It's difficult to feel that we are thoughtful enough, or well-educated enough, or well-informed enough, to sustain anything like a democracy. One suspects we are just going through the motions.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:06 PM on June 27 [61 favorites]

This has made me depressed tonight.
posted by SLC Mom at 8:08 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

All Bidem had to do was be competent and he couldn't even manage that. Sure everything Trump said was a boldfaced lie, but he got away with all of it. Can someone just inject some bleach into my arm already? I don't want to live on this planet anymore.
posted by lock robster at 8:08 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Is it too late to bring in Count Binface and give him a forged US birth certificate?
posted by delfin at 8:10 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Mod note: Couple of comments removed. Let's stop the derail about the 2020 election. Feel free to create a post about the 2020 election, but there's no need to reargue that here.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 8:12 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Metafilter: "I can't understand how Nixon won, not a single person I know voted for him." - Pauline Kael (quote approximate)
posted by zaixfeep at 8:13 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Feel free to create a post about the 2020 election

please god no
posted by gwint at 8:14 PM on June 27 [26 favorites]

Why the fuck didn’t Biden’s team set some expectations beforehand that he has a cold?

Fuck CNN for enabling Trump’s lies.

Ya’ll we gotta dig deep. Fascism is mere months away from happening. Where is President Obama when we need him? Can he run as Harris’ VP? My god. I can’t calm down.
posted by edithkeeler at 8:15 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

ob1quixote: ““Countdown With Keith Olbermann - Biden-Trump Debate Post Game Show””

I'm watching this K.O. live stream and to me the look on Biden's face is one of incredulity. Like, "Are you really going to let him say this shit on national television? January 6th was just a day?"
posted by ob1quixote at 8:16 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Old white guys look like the general public's idea of Who Should Be In Charge, and there's not a lot of deep thought going into it beyond that.

Part of the problem is that an awful lot of young white guys also look like this.
posted by toxic at 8:17 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Thanks for the Keith Olbermann link. He's trying to do Walter Cronkite without the mid-Atlantic accent, but looks much older. Everyone is a lot older somehow.

There's just no chance of replacing Biden. It's just not going to happen unless Biden decides to, and I don't think there's a perfect candidate that would seamlessly take over.
posted by netowl at 8:17 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Where is President Obama when we need him?

Please if Obama shows up it’ll be to bash leftist protesters. That’s the only thing he’ll comment on in his post presidenc
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:18 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

Someone I know on Facebook just posted a still from INSIDE OUT 2 where Anxiety is introducing herself, and captioned it "the winner of tonight's debate".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:23 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

I'm hanging out on metafilter chat if anyone wants to come commiserate without mucking up the thread.
posted by Reverend John at 8:25 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

There's just no chance of replacing Biden. It's just not going to happen unless Biden decides to

There's a decent chance he just crumbles into a small pile of dust before the election.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:25 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Fetterman was elected to the US Senate in 2022 despite his debate making clear he had not fully recovered from his stroke, and Dr. Oz was a lot less unpopular with Democrat-leaning voters than Trump. What voter will switch to Trump because of this?
posted by MattD at 8:27 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

I fear a lot of less enthusiastic Biden supporters will just not show up.
posted by Reverend John at 8:29 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

What voter will switch to Trump because of this?

The danger is "how many voters will stay home rather than vote for Biden because of this, especially in swing states"? Not whether those voters will switch to Trump.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:31 PM on June 27 [24 favorites]

America: hold your nose like you’ve never done before and VOTE!
posted by mazola at 8:31 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

The stakes were high for Biden. He needed to convince lukewarm supporters to vote. The way to do that was to pretend that Trump wasn't even in the room, and to answer questions as if they had been posed by the viewers. No one really needed to see a pro wrestling style cagematch, and the format of the debate meant that Biden could have handled it like a town hall. He should have done that, because he needs to make a case not that he's better than Trump, but that he deserves a second term. He doesn't deserve a second term because he's better than Trump; every person reading these words, and I don't care if one of you is secretly the Zodiac Killer, is better than Trump. Trump isn't relevant, because "not Trump" isn't an option on the ballot. Biden is an option. Biden needed to sell Biden.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:31 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

Metafilter: "I can't understand how Nixon won, not a single person I know voted for him." - Pauline Kael (quote approximate)

The actual Kael quote, for all that it matters:

“I live in a rather special world. I only know one person who voted for Nixon. Where they are I don’t know. They’re outside my ken. But sometimes when I’m in a theater I can feel them.”
posted by non canadian guy at 8:32 PM on June 27 [28 favorites]

That was *brutal*. Trump obviously lies as compulsively as he breaths, and I'm not for a second suggesting he came off even remotely well. But the Democrats seem to be straight up doing elder abuse running Joe Biden as a candidate. Look, he's smart and has ideals and vision and a lot of people love and respect him, but the blank stare and the open mouth while he listens to people is a truly concerning indicator and anyone who has spent any time in a nursing home or visiting a dementia care ward has to be worried right now. If "Trump is a threat to the world" is anything other than a BS talking point they need a different candidate for the ballot. It's bad either way. There's a difference between a government's leadership that benefits from the accumulated wisdom of age and a gerontocracy.
posted by MarchHare at 8:34 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

“My take on the debate is that debates have always been useless propaganda events at best and in the case of Trump harmfully normalizing pageantry and Joe Biden should have publicly announced a year ago that Donald Trump is criminally unfit and as such would not be granted one.”— A.R. Moxon (@juliusgoat.bsky.social) Jun 27, 2024 at 11:07 PM

posted by ob1quixote at 8:35 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

So Vice President Harris will be here in Park City tomorrow. What road sign am I putting out for her?

My kids made a “Congratulations Joe & Kamala” sign for inauguration day 2021. It even has a stylized uterus on it that their nanny added. I still have it and still hope to put it in our yard again in 2025….
posted by inflatablekiwi at 8:36 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Yeah I’m mostly seeing people just despondent that these are the two candidates. This was a “win” for the double haters.

I still think some people don’t grok that all the possible Democrats have their own liabilities, whether deserved or not. And replacing Biden would look like premature defeat. I also don’t think people would like him saying if he wins he’ll resign after a certain amount of time.

I don’t remember why they wanted this debate so early in the first place. That may be what saves this.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:37 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

“Undecided” voter interview: “Trump - Hell no. Biden - Oh no”
posted by Warren Terra at 8:37 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

What is everyone drinking? I have Kahlua and cream.
posted by NotLost at 8:38 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Gretchen Whitmer to the white courtesy phone, please. (We would also accept Booker, Harris...)
posted by Ber at 8:39 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

Yes, Gretchen Whitmer.
posted by jabah at 8:40 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Is that Jill Biden wearing a MAGA cap?
posted by Czjewel at 8:40 PM on June 27

I tuned in for the local news, and just before was the end of NBC's coverage of this debate. Lester Holt and Savannah Guthrie looked defeated.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:42 PM on June 27

I only drink when I want to enjoy myself. (not casting aspersions on anyone else's coping mechanisms right now, just sad that I don't feel that it would help me)
posted by Reverend John at 8:43 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

The breadth of choice between the two is not an overton window, it's an overton arrow slit at this point. There's no reason to treat this as anything other than a meaningless performance.
posted by wafehling at 8:44 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

"Fear is the foundation of most governments; but is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men, in whose breasts it predominates, so stupid, and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it.

Honor is truly sacred, but holds a lower rank in the scale of moral excellence than virtue. Indeed the former is but a part of the latter, and consequently has not equal pretensions to support a frame of government productive of human happiness."

-John Adams.
posted by clavdivs at 8:44 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

That these two are presented as equals is an indicator of a much bigger problem than Donnie himself. And I’ll admit — that half of America wants to go back to its bad boyfriend instead of the guy who’s decent but isn’t presenting well — part of me says “Fine, do whatever the fuck you want.”

If only the rest of the world wouldn’t be dragged down with the USA, it’d be a really attractive idea.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:44 PM on June 27 [17 favorites]

Fascism is mere months away from happening

Even if Al Gore had won in 2000, followed by eight years of Obama and eight years of Bernie,
Even if 9/11 had been detected and averted,
Even if the second Gulf war and Libya never happened, and Putin didn't decide to boil the USA alive in its own imperial juices.
Even if the Green New Deal was passed in its entirety and top tier taxation was back to 1950s levels,
Something like this would still be happening because (a) the fundamentalists and oligarchs-in-waiting have been working patiently towards this goal since the 70's, and (b) the Internet has finally made it possible.

Trump will rule like a monarch until his death. Taiwan and Ukraine will fall, and the Three Glorious Leaders will stand for photo ops under a BRICS World Peace At Last banner. News organizations will applaud, or die. Countries that refuse to join in the looting of the planet will become the victims.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:45 PM on June 27 [13 favorites]

So how is the Democratic Party going to explain to Black voters, especially the older ones, the one group that always votes for them, why they are bypassing Harris with Whitmer/Newsome/etc.? Like what does that look like?

I know Harris is still relatively unpopular but talk about bad optics.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:46 PM on June 27 [11 favorites]

The breadth of choice between the two is not an overton window, it's an overton arrow slit at this point.

The choice is still huge. It's a choice between Project 2025 and the continuation of a democracy, however flawed.
posted by Reverend John at 8:50 PM on June 27 [45 favorites]

folks calling this a deficiency in “energy level” are certainly seeing what they want to see. The White House has been gaslighting anyone with eyes for a year (probably more), and this is the first time it couldn’t be hidden or talked around. there is no saving this, especially not once you’ve lost CNN and MSNBC talking heads. whether the ticket changes or not, it looks like Biden will not be president in January.
posted by supercres at 8:51 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

Your incumbent is the guy who won last time. He's also the guy who's got name recognition, in a country where people are desperately uninformed, are really only interested in celebrities, and are unlikely to know much more about politics than the name of the President, if they know that much.

Not running your incumbent is an admission that the highest-profile, winningest guy you got is a loser who can't even secure the support of his own party. It's a PR catastrophe, and there is nothing else to this besides PR. If you're not going to run Biden you might as well just concede the election now and pack up the tents. The idea that he's going to be replaced is a fantasy.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:53 PM on June 27 [28 favorites]

3 weeks ago, standup comedian and Daily Show correspondent Josh Johnson shared his thoughts on the then-upcoming debate [slyt]
posted by otherchaz at 8:54 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

Well, just kick out Harris and get AOC to be VP. or P.

Why not? Is this crazy?
posted by ovvl at 8:55 PM on June 27

ob1quixote: “Countdown With Keith Olbermann - Biden-Trump Debate Post Game Show”

K.O. signed off with, "Damn you to hell, Jack Tapper. Damn you to hell, Dana Bash. Damn to you hell, CNN."
posted by ob1quixote at 8:57 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

Harris’s “unpopularity” is the weirdest, fakest meme out there. She’s never lost an election in her political rise. She’s an entirely competent mainstream Democrat as VP, just as she was as a DA, AG and Senator. I doubt Biden is going anywhere, but if he does, she’s the Presidential nominee for sure.
posted by MattD at 9:07 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

AOC is not old enough to be eligible yet.
posted by Selena777 at 9:07 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

CNN instant poll of debate watchers (4-5% more Republican):

Who won?
67% Trump
33% Biden

Who do you think will win? (pre-debate)
55% Trump
45% Biden

2020 debate results comparison:
First debate: 60% Biden won, 28% Trump
Second debate: 53% Biden, 39% Trump

Confidence in ability to lead
A lot: 14% Biden, 36% Trump
Some: 29% Biden, 20% Trump
None: 57% Biden, 44% Trump
posted by Rhaomi at 9:08 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

That these two are presented as equals is an indicator of a much bigger problem than Donnie himself. And I’ll admit — that half of America wants to go back to its bad boyfriend instead of the guy who’s decent but isn’t presenting well — part of me says “Fine, do whatever the fuck you want.”

If only the rest of the world wouldn’t be dragged down with the USA, it’d be a really attractive idea.

And the half of us who don’t want Trump? Where do we fit into your oikophobic edgelord-doomer reveries?

(As to your second para, I hate to break it to you but fascism is on the march in much of the rest of the world too. Inverted American exceptionalism is still American exceptionalism, and still bullshit.)
posted by non canadian guy at 9:08 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

I'd sure jump on the Harris bandwagon right now.
posted by Reverend John at 9:09 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

That was an absolute nightmare and Trump is going to win the election by 10 points but you have to admit "we bought the certain dog" is a weirdly appealing turn of phrase
posted by theodolite at 9:09 PM on June 27

those aren't statistics it's an indictment.
posted by clavdivs at 9:11 PM on June 27

I was working tonight, set the dvr, and watched the whole damn thing. Started at 10. started skimming this thread after watching about 15 minutes.

This was not a good night. Joe got some zingers in but really came off as frail.

Switching him out for some other nominee has been a fever dream on talk radio and right wing websites for months, and here we are. I'm not sure what the mechanism for that even is, and campaigns need funding, ground game, materials, volunteers, all organized around a coherent, compelling message. To say it would be a hail mary would be an understatement.

I won't give up hope. There are plenty of crazy things that could happen. Let's see what happens at the conventions. But yeah, not a good night.
posted by vrakatar at 9:11 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

> why am I watching Fox

oh honey let's just sit awhile

> miss Ross Perot

ahh that's better turn the drip up nurse
posted by Rat Spatula at 9:13 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

I don’t believe this country is going to elect a Black woman as president. Certainly not now and maybe not ever. Especially with 5 months of campaigning.

Everything Obama got, it’s gonna be that much worse with a Black woman.
posted by girlmightlive at 9:14 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

AOC is not old enough to be eligible yet

She's going to be 35 on the 13th of October of this year, so she will be eligible in November.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:14 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

So how is the Democratic Party going to explain to Black voters, especially the older ones, the one group that always votes for them, why they are bypassing Harris with Whitmer/Newsome/etc.? Like what does that look like?

I know Harris is still relatively unpopular but talk about bad optics.

That's what drives me up a wall. The office of VP diminishes pretty much anybody who inhabits it. Harris is not a historic orator like Obama, but she'll be fine. What's wrong with fine? If the choice is between Black Lady Who You Feel Mid About vs. Orange Fascist Shitgibbon Felonious McRapeALot, I should hope the choice is clear.
posted by jonp72 at 9:15 PM on June 27 [21 favorites]

If only the rest of the world wouldn’t be dragged down with the USA, it’d be a really attractive idea.

And the half of us who don’t want Trump? Where do we fit into your oikophobic edgelord-doomer reveries?
posted by non canadian guy at 11:08 PM on June 27

As an American who doesn't want Trump, who has loved ones who are likely to be hurt by another Trump presidency, and also doesn't want the harm that he'll bring to others in our country who are not close to me, I have to say I'd take some comfort if I knew he wouldn't also hurt the rest of the world, especially regarding climate change and the rise of global fascism.
posted by Reverend John at 9:15 PM on June 27 [5 favorites]

MattD: "Harris’s “unpopularity” is the weirdest, fakest meme out there. She’s never lost an election in her political rise."

Can't lose an election if you hit single digits and drop out two months before the first primary. *taps head*
posted by Rhaomi at 9:19 PM on June 27 [14 favorites]

Harris’s “Presidential” campaign was a campaign to be nominated VP … which she won.
posted by MattD at 9:26 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

More CNN instant poll numbers (slightly Republican-leaning sample):

Favorability (pre- and post-debate)
Biden: 37% before, 31% after
Trump: 40% before, 43% after

Who better addressed concerns about ability to handle the presidency?
Trump: 48%
Biden: 23%
Neither: 22%

Did the debate affect your vote?
5% changed mind
14% reconsidering
81% no effect

After the debate, who would you consider voting for?
48% Trump
40% Biden
2% both
11% neither
posted by Rhaomi at 9:37 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

I get why people are deeply discouraged by what they just saw, but after re-reading the full thread, there’s something that I think is worth pointing out: at the beginning of this thread, when people clearly thought that Biden might do very well, a lot of folks were declaring that it doesn’t matter because the voting public’s minds are already made up and immune to change. By the end of the thread, when Biden had clearly done poorly, the consensus had changed to “one poor performance at a debate is enough to destroy all hope”.

I strongly suspect that if Biden had done well, folks would still be declaring that debates mean nothing. In other words, there’s a strong slant that was present from the beginning here that is driven more by fear (honestly held) than reason. Just something to remember for those who are freaking out right now.
posted by AdamCSnider at 9:40 PM on June 27 [46 favorites]

“And the half of us who don’t want Trump? Where do we fit into your oikophobic edgelord-doomer reveries?

(As to your second para, I hate to break it to you but fascism is on the march in much of the rest of the world too. Inverted American exceptionalism is still American exceptionalism, and still bullshit.)”

Well, the rest of the world — were kinda in your hands at this point, aren’t we?
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:46 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Look it doesn't matter how much Trump lied. Everyone knows he lies. He lied and lied and lied and still won last time, he lies and got the nomination. That's not new information. The fact he spoke barely a single word of truth through the entire debate is totally irrelevant. It's never mattered before! Why would it matter now?!

Some fuckwit idiots in the Democratic party decided that it was imperative to keep Biden as the nominee, hid the fact his health had dramatically declined (god knows what their game plan was here. This isn't the era of Roosevelt anymore), and now all hell has broken loose because its actual BIG NEWS that the President is barely able to walk across a stage or get a rehearsed sentence out coherently. I mean, even if the state of democracy in the US and goddamn World Peace wasn't on the line, that would be a big effing deal.

Damn it, I was SO mad I had to vote for the genocide-supporter already. Now I'm furious because it's not even going to make any difference. And don't even get me started on the shameful way the Biden administration exploited and used Kamala Harris. DAMN.
posted by EllaEm at 9:46 PM on June 27 [15 favorites]

Historically, debates have little impact on the outcome. But we also historically haven't had a president this old. If you, like me, haven't really been paying attention to Biden's public appearances, then seeing him up there barely keeping it together was *shocking*. I'm seriously wondering if he has the capacity to be president right *now* and I'm certain from that that he does not have the vitality left for another 4 years of what is famously a stressful job. Nobody could watch that and think: this guy has got the right stuff. So that's the concerned reaction. There's no pumping the brakes on this runaway semi before it careens into November and god knows what horrors await us then.
posted by dis_integration at 9:47 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

If you, like me, haven't really been paying attention to Biden's public appearances, then seeing him up there barely keeping it together was *shocking*

Truth is I *have* been paying attention to Biden’s public performances and they’d been consistently better than this.
posted by mazola at 9:52 PM on June 27 [37 favorites]

when people clearly thought that Biden might do very well, a lot of folks were declaring that it doesn’t matter because the voting public’s minds are already made up and immune to change. By the end of the thread, when Biden had clearly done poorly, the consensus had changed to “one poor performance at a debate is enough to destroy all hope”.

Because at the beginning of this thread, I honestly didn't believe that the debate would matter.

By the end...now I think I might have been wrong.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 9:53 PM on June 27 [10 favorites]

I tried for a minute, then couldn’t. Trump’s lying with, what passes for him, at least, conviction and relative fluency vs Biden with the look of someone struggling to keep in mind where they were and what they were supposed to be doing. I feel the same sinking feeling I had when Brexit happened, where I realized not just how possible Trump’s victory was, but how probable it was.

I went upstairs to do some work. I came down about twenty minutes ago, and Mrs. Ghidorah was watching a Japanese show with a panel of celebrities weighing in on their reactions to the debate.

I started to complain to Mrs. Ghidorah that the panel was only talking about how things looked, without any understanding or discussion of what was actually said by either candidate, and then… I just stopped because I get it. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a vaguely undecided voter in the states or a panel of celebrities in Japan, no one is actually listening to what either man is saying, just how they’re saying it, and how they look doing it. Trump lied openly and often (including about abortion after birth, which holy Christ CNN, how did you let that go unchallenged? Yes, I know, it’s because your boss wants trump to win, but still), but there’s just too many people who will ignore that he’s telling lies and promising nothing but another four years of self-serving crippling of the government to serve the agenda of the people who’ve kept him, thus far, out of prison.

Biden could be delivering the sermon on the mount (or insert something you imagine most people would like, I guess?), or outright performing miracles, but no one will hear it past seeing a doddering old man.

Fuck the Democratic Party, in that it lacked any kind of foresight or willingness to develop young leaders so that we might not be in this situation, needingto pin our hopes on a something that’s looking more and more like elder abuse. While utterly futile, at least the assholes who tried to run for the GOP nomination at least had some people in their 50’s.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:58 PM on June 27 [27 favorites]

But we'll always have Jiminy Glick!

And you do realize Jasmine Crockett is 43.
posted by y2karl at 9:59 PM on June 27

MattD: "Fetterman was elected to the US Senate in 2022 despite his debate making clear he had not fully recovered from his stroke, and Dr. Oz was a lot less unpopular with Democrat-leaning voters than Trump. What voter will switch to Trump because of this?"

This is giving me a measure of hope. I remember cringing super hard at the Oz-Fetterman debate, having similar thoughts of "this is a good candidate being absolutely train-wrecked by poor delivery that's leaning into his biggest perceived weakness," but then he ended up winning by almost 5%. Only caveat is that the midterm electorate is a different beast, but it does show that contrasting glib smooth-talking TV bullshit with awful stage presence does not guarantee a win.
posted by Rhaomi at 10:04 PM on June 27 [12 favorites]

Goddamn, how did they fuck this up? He should've been napping, and come out refreshed and swinging. He threw some big punches late, but he should've led with that to throw TFG off his game. Jesus Christ, what a disaster.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:09 PM on June 27 [7 favorites]

I am kinda shocked and unsettled by the ageism in about 99% of this discourse. Jesus Christ, Joe has a cold and is 81. He’s still brill, he’s still experienced, he’s still 26000% smarter than TFG.
posted by tristeza at 10:12 PM on June 27 [16 favorites]

Debate takeaways: Trump confident, even when wrong, Biden halting, even with facts on his side [AP]
posted by mazola at 10:16 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Hey remember when Obama lost the first debate to Romney?
posted by kerf at 10:20 PM on June 27 [8 favorites]

I am kinda shocked and unsettled by the ageism in about 99% of this discourse.

The ageism is baked in.
Hell, millennials might as well have onions tied to their belts hereabouts
posted by y2karl at 10:21 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

Is it ageism to look at Biden's terrible performance and speculate it's because of his advanced age? He didn't perform like this four years ago, and it seems like time has taken its toll.
posted by Reverend John at 10:24 PM on June 27 [23 favorites]

How long ago was the last State of the Union again?
posted by y2karl at 10:30 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

How long ago was the last State of the Union again?

How long will it be until the one four years from now, and how's Biden going to be then?
posted by Gadarene at 10:33 PM on June 27 [4 favorites]

You know, I was given a lot of hope by that SOTU address too, but there's a big difference between reading prepared remarks and a debate. Biden's ability to think on his feet and form a coherent argument was called into question here in a way that referring to the SOTU can't answer.
posted by Reverend John at 10:35 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

Oh my stars, my poor Metafilter, what has happened to thine megathreads?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 10:37 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Pointing out an old man appeared old, when indeed he did, is not ageism.
posted by coffeecat at 10:37 PM on June 27 [29 favorites]

there's a big difference between reading prepared remarks and a debate.

And the way he handled Boebert and Klan Momjorie Greene there was rehearsed? I think not.
posted by y2karl at 10:40 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

Political Youtuber Beau of the Fifth Column shares his first impressions of the debate.
posted by zaixfeep at 10:41 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

there’s something that I think is worth pointing out: at the beginning of this thread, when people clearly thought that Biden might do very well

I don't see anyone early in the thread saying he would do very well - I see people hoping he'd do OK, while Trump would make more revealing gaffs like when he told the Proud Boys to stand by.

Look, the whole conversation across various media outlets, social media platforms, etc. is about how Biden should step down. That....doesn't look good. The news cycle for the next few days (week?) will be about how awful Biden's performance was - I can't predict what will happen obviously, but this will have an impact. Honestly, even as someone planning to hold my nose and vote for the guy, I don't like the idea that if there is an emergency at 1am, this is the guy being woken up to deal with it. What a joke.
posted by coffeecat at 10:43 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

I think its a stretch to compare handling a couple of known and expected hecklers who don't have a mic to responding to the questions of the moderators and to Trump's assertions and giving the poor responses Biden did. If it wasn't his age what was it? Some people are saying he had a cold, and we all know about his long struggle with stuttering, but this wasn't just tripping over a word or a phrase. This was failing to cover the basics. And with God as my witness I thought and expected that Joe would be able to cover the basics. It grieves me to see what happened tonight and I wish it weren't so.
posted by Reverend John at 10:45 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

Looking prescient?
posted by Phanx at 10:46 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Some earbleach to mitigate the debate pain: Sec'y Buttigieg challenges Rep. Scott Perry(R) over "the EV Mandate". [Spoiler: PB wins]
posted by zaixfeep at 10:50 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

People see the headlines on media saying the orange fascist lied through the whole debate, and they seem to be okay with it. They like him being a bully and ginning up hate.

If the drinking game was malarky, your liver's okay. If the drinking game was Immigration, how's the ER? or are you dead? Biden did his best. WTF is with his campaign management?
posted by theora55 at 10:50 PM on June 27 [6 favorites]

The democracy does not go well, Enterprise.

Rendezvous with the fleet (⚡️⚡️static⚡️⚡️)
posted by Servo5678 at 11:10 PM on June 27 [2 favorites]

When Biden ran in 2020, he said he would step aside. He did not, and we are all suffering for it. There was no real primary because he took up all the space.

I still think it's pretty easy to replace Biden and win. An animated corpse with piles of baggage...
posted by kaibutsu at 11:11 PM on June 27 [17 favorites]

A reminder that you can't constitutionally have a Prez and VP from the same state - so you can't have Newsom/Harris
posted by mbo at 11:14 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

The format is really what's at issue here. Biden has done ok in debates, but when he did the state of the union address, what? Just a few months ago? He *nailed it*. Just a real barnburner of a speech, and I don't usually listen to any politician speak for nearly that long. But it really, really looks like his health has declined, or as I read somewhere he simply has a cold, maybe a fever, and that's why he was like this tonight.

Anyway, the debate format: We've seen Trump do this shit over and over for a decade now, his firehose of lies and gaslighting. The moderators were useless. There wasn't even a live audience, which would've helped Biden, I think. Just a perfect storm of shit. And there's gonna be at least one more of these.

Debates don't typically matter on election day--most people have already made up their minds. And the smart money is still on Biden. I think.

/sigh. I should stop looking for good news to come from U.S. politics...
posted by zardoz at 11:19 PM on June 27 [9 favorites]

People see the headlines on media saying the orange fascist lied through the whole debate, and they seem to be okay with it. They like him being a bully and ginning up hate.

The NYTimes is in the tank for a rapist and convicted felon. It's hard not to feel like the outcome is rigged and everyone at the top is just jostling for a favorable position after America ends.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:22 PM on June 27 [24 favorites]

Look, the whole conversation across various media outlets, social media platforms, etc. is about how Biden should step down.

You mean like it's been for the last six months?
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:24 PM on June 27 [3 favorites]

When Biden ran in 2020, he said he would step aside.

Thank you. I remembered that, but it feels like it was just swept under the rug. I wasn’t ever going to vote any way else, but him saying he wouldn’t run again was like the one thing that I felt good about in voting for him over anyone that I actually would have liked to see.

I’m tired of a party that runs entirely on “vote for us, or else you get that other guy, and it will be all your fault.” It’d be nice to have a party that doesn’t systematically undermine any young charismatic member of the party who manages to gain traction outside of the set hierarchy.

I don’t feel it’s ageist to recognize that the job is an incredibly difficult and draining one that also requires at least a solid decade of building a profile to the point a candidacy might actually be viable. It’s not ageist to acknowledge that we’ve had two presidents in a row exhibit clear symptoms of decline related to aging while in office.
posted by Ghidorah at 11:52 PM on June 27 [38 favorites]

Biden repeatedly stumbles, Trump shares litany of falsehoods during U.S. presidential debate [cbc.ca]
posted by porpoise at 11:59 PM on June 27 [1 favorite]

Two men going head-to-head in a (terrible) debate, the leaders of the lumbering two parties who swap power over and over through many decades, and one will lead the country after the looming election vote, the shittiest remake of Groundhog Day. The more left-wing man (though, in effect, centrist) constantly unconvincing in delivery and content. The more right-wing man, the serial liar swirling in financial scandals, spending the debate lying, constantly lying, but not getting called out on his lies by the moderator.

Eventually, one of the audience asks the question that's sitting in the minds of many watching:

"Are you two really the best we've got to be the next prime minister of our great country?" he asked, to loud applause.
posted by Wordshore at 12:03 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

You know, I was given a lot of hope by that SOTU address too, but there's a big difference between reading prepared remarks and a debate. Biden's ability to think on his feet and form a coherent argument was called into question here in a way that referring to the SOTU can't answer.

I think its a stretch to compare handling a couple of known and expected hecklers who don't have a mic to responding to the questions of the moderators and to Trump's assertions and giving the poor responses Biden did. If it wasn't his age what was it?

The thing is, Biden didn't just read prepared remarks during that address. He was quick on his feet. He sounded vigorous and aggressive. And while I have no doubt he expected Greene and Boebert and others to heckle and prepared accordingly, his response was convincing, it didn't sound canned or rehearsed. He didn't just seem like he was reciting something off the teleprompter. So we know that Biden is there. I'm sure that Biden showed up during debate prep, because if this was what his team was seeing in the weeks before the debate, I have no doubt they would have come up with a pretext to call it off. And we needed that Biden to show up tonight, to be punchy and hit back. And he knew what the stakes were, he knew this was his best chance to bury the age narrative for good, and he completely failed to do it.

I don't think this is the utter game-over catastrophe some are making it out to be. I remember when Democrats went into panic mode after Obama botched his first debate and Romney surged into a polling lead-- and that was in October, much closer to election day. Post-debate surveys had voters saying Romney had won the debate by margins of 24% - 52%-- pretty in line with the 34% who said Trump beat Biden in the survey Rhaomi mentioned. We've been down this road before. And as someone mentioned earlier, John Fetterman had an 'oh my god did he just sink his campaign?' debate only to outperform his polls by 8-10 points and win.

But it's still bad. At best, it was a blown opportunity to firmly and maybe even decisively refute concerns about Biden's age and acuity. But it wasn't at best, he straight up played into those concerns. Nobody told him "Hey, when you're not speaking, you're still on camera, so don't stare vacantly with your mouth open"? Nobody told him "Tear into him on the felony convictions, be aggressive, don't be afraid to raise your voice"? We had to wait 40 minutes to be reminded that one of the two guys on the stage was found guilty on 34 felony counts? And when we get to abortion we get a ramble about trimesters and a bizarre digression into immigration, instead of talking about young girls forced to carry a rapist's baby, women being unable to access IVF because of draconian policies Trump enabled, Trump leaving the door open to the government tracking pregnant women? Trump's weakest point and this is what Biden does with it? And on immigration, nothing about Trump wanting to pretty much create a personal military force to raid people's houses and launch mass deportations? Yeah, it wasn't a complete disaster, but god, what a massive, massive missed opportunity on so many levels.

I also have to say, though, for all the nonsense from the right about how Tapper carried Biden... What were the moderators doing? No fact-checking of Trump whatsoever, not even on the insane "live birth abortion" crap. No willingness to call Trump out for repeatedly refusing to answer questions, or to cut him off and insist that he answer the actual question. And the media still just cannot, cannot stop normalizing Trump's lunacy. According to NYT, Trump "forcefully made his case with wild claims and exaggerations." No, man, he lied. Blatantly. Astonishingly. And got away with it. And nobody cares, because Trump lying is just normal now, but Biden rambling and sounding old is headline news. This isn't immutable, this isn't just the way it is, reporters are repeatedly choosing to act like Trump's behavior is perfectly normal and acceptable. It's like they learned nothing from 2016. It's like we all learned nothing from 2016.
posted by Method Man at 12:50 AM on June 28 [37 favorites]

My debate fanfic: Biden deliberately infected himself with COVID so that he would be at his most contagious during the debate in order to infect Trump and take them both out.
posted by Literaryhero at 12:55 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Time for Dolly Parton to step forward as an independent candidate?
posted by Phanx at 12:58 AM on June 28 [17 favorites]

Well. Glad I wasn't awake for any of this - sometimes just listening to the reverberations of an event are more significant than the event itself. That this happened in Jun is really reason for optimism - time to spin up an alternative (but who? Who could it possible be that is not the current VP because for some inconceivable reason (race, sex but we won't mention that we'll stick in... uh... experience? Statesmanship? We'll fill that in later) she isn't ideal? (Really if she wanted the role, she just has to step up into it: It's there for her to take. Would she be good as President? I have no idea. I did not expect Biden to be as effective as he's been but look at that.)

The one clip that I saw of Biden fumbling through... I'm not even sure what he was getting at... was bloody harrowing. Trump in office... Jesus, I don't see anything good coming out of that.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:38 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

george clooney.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:01 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Thanks all for your courage and stamina! This looks terrifying.

There's something I've been wanting to say for a while, but there hasn't been an opportunity till now. Sometimes I listen to The Bulwark, a podcast made by never-trump conservatives. It's interesting because they are former Republican operatives and they know how the R-game works (short version: cynically). And one of them said something I've been thinking all along: the Biden is old thing is a Republican talking point that has been successfully planted in the mainstream media by Republican operatives as a dog-whistle: if Biden dies the president will be a black woman. And the narrow margin of voters in swing states who will determine this election are not sure they are ready for a black woman as president.
Biden is only a few years older than Trump, and in better health. It's not about Biden.

My guess is that the Democrats have the same polling and that is why Biden is running again. And I think that is a wrong strategy. A defensive strategy.

The Biden administration has achieved some amazing stuff, there is no doubt about it, and I'm certain that this is because of Biden's leadership. He knows what he is doing and he is good at it. But what he hasn't been good at is lifting his team, and showing the electorate how they have grown into leadership too. I'm really interested in politics and I barely know who is in the Biden cabinet or what they are doing. I will posit that swing voters know even less.
And I think that is an age issue. Not about being senile or frail, but about a type of leadership that is outdated. A type of leadership that Biden and Trump agree on: leadership is an older white man who says stuff while looking important. I know a large part of the electorate agrees, and specially in 2016 there were enough who agreed to elect Trump. I also think that is why Biden was the only person who could beat Trump. But the electorate is getting younger and more diverse. That is what the Republicans are scared of and doing their best to prevent though voter suppression and even imagined deportation of potential future citizens.

The Democrats should not be on defensive here, and in spite of all of his accomplishments, Biden is the defensive candidate. They should be out there celebrating the new America, with a diverse population, with new infrastructure, with solutions for climate change, with solutions for both rural and urban poverty, with solutions for healthcare, and with international leadership for peace. Heck, Obama won two elections on hope in spite of not achieving nearly as much as Biden. But I think Trump's narrow 2016 victory scared the Democratic Party out of their senses.
posted by mumimor at 2:14 AM on June 28 [25 favorites]

I work in elder care, and one thing that consistently shocks people is how badly even a minor illness or infection exacerbates dementia symptoms. Someone in very early dementia can seem totally unacfected, but put their system under stress, illness, exhaustion, or dehydration, and their ability to function normally disintegrates.

A reminder that you can't constitutionally have a Prez and VP from the same state - so you can't have Newsom/Harris

Thank heaven for small mercies.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:43 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

On reflection this morning, I have been watching Presidential debates for nearly forty years, and Biden's performance was one of the very worst. I hadn't actually watched the man at length for a while and I was shocked at how frail he came across. I don't think you can explain away what we just saw. Sure, maybe he had a bad night. But the man had just spent a week at Camp David preparing for this. The only moments he really got fired up were when he attacked Trump personally, because he obviously really hates the man.

Does this guarantee Biden loses? Of course not. Everyone in this thread will still vote for him if he's the nominee. But let's not be willfully blind. That performance was a disaster for him and won him no votes.
posted by fortitude25 at 3:03 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

I skipped watching the debate to protect my brain against psychic damage. How'd it go? Are we feeling good about American democracy this morning?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 3:33 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

It really is dispiriting to grasp just how badly the Democratic Party fears its own left wing.

Warren would wipe the floor with that orange shitstain, then stick around to clean the residue off the floor. But she'll never be given the opportunity and that, more than anything else I know about the US political order, is right at the heart of everything that's wrong with it.
posted by flabdablet at 3:35 AM on June 28 [49 favorites]

most people who may vote in the upcoming US presidential election are deeply and profoundly disinterested in politics and only a small minority of that overall population will have watched this debate. of those who watched, politics is so polarised and many people have already decided who they will vote for, that it is unlikely that the performance in the debate changes anyone's mind.

folks commenting in this thread are unusually hyper-engaged with politics, and do not accurately represent the general politically-disinterested public.
posted by are-coral-made at 3:35 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

There's been a similar problem, historically, in the DFL party in Minnesota. There's this tendency for the insiders in the organization to have their own idea about who should be the next governor, who should be the next senator. And it's often been based on whose "turn" it is. So-and-so licked a lot of envelopes, went to the right fundraisers, generally got along in the internal office politics, and became the insider favorite. Then, when a longtime officeholder retires or dies, and a choice job opens up, So-and-so has to the the party nominee because it's His Turn (occasionally, Her Turn).

The tendency is completely tone-deaf to what the public sees and thinks. Now, sometimes the DFL does produce very competent candidates. But there have also been times when the party operation just churns forward with a lousy candidate despite obvious signs that they haven't picked the best person for the campaign.

One time it went horribly wrong was 1998: Skip Humphrey, Hubert's son, was put up to run for governor. He was as exciting as a dishrag, and the perception of him riding on the family name didn't help. The result was that Jesse Ventura became governor in a three-way race.

It can be a very real problem. It doesn't have to happen: Paul Wellstone broke through the system, so did Keith Ellison. But if a group of party people are going to select a candidate, I'd at least hope that they'd pick somebody who's the best for the particular campaign, someone with the right skills, the right backstory, the right oomph, whatever it takes to win. And it's okay to develop that back bench of up and coming possibilities. Having "insiders" is probably inevitable. But at least do the job that you claim to be doing--winning elections.
posted by gimonca at 4:05 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

to add to the chorus.

perception is reality. - the republicans will hammer on the slowness thing, and they will have facts and video to show it.

this is a close fought election with voters in swing states ALREADY leaning trump. Those voters who will decide the future of this nation, are sitting on the fence; that fence is "do I bother to vote", or "do I hold my nose and vote slightly to the left of where I normally sit because of trump"?

1)do you think MORE people , who might not have come out, orwere thinking 'i can force myself to vote for biden' will come out for Biden now, after being exposed to the media consequences of that debate?

2) do you think that being exposed to the media consequences of this debate will SUPPRESS trumps vote?

if the answer to 1 and 2 is "no" and "no", it's all hands on deck to change things.
posted by lalochezia at 4:06 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

The Democrats should not be on defensive here

Certainly "Democrats on offense" would be a novelty. When I think of the broad characteristics of the two parties, I think "offense" goes with "Republican" and "defense" goes with Democrat. Ds say things like "when they go low we go high" and Rs say things like "how big is our attack ad budget?"
posted by axiom at 4:09 AM on June 28 [7 favorites]

Like others in this thread have already reminded us, Obama lost his 1st debate, too. And just like with this debate, he “lost” because Republicans said he lost — and Dems are so naively honest, they publicly agreed with them!

Republicans would never do that, no matter how bad Trump was. Dems needed that type of audacity.
posted by edithkeeler at 4:17 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

Quick review of where key electoral vote states sit at this point in polling:

Arizona, Georgia, North Carolina--basically, they've reverted to polling averages that track with 2016 results. Trump ahead by 4 or 5 points or so in each. Biden won Arizona and Georgia in 2020, lost NC very narrowly in 2020.

Nevada, Biden also trailing by 4 or 5 points. Biden won Nevada in 2020, so did Clinton in 2016.

Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania: all tossups in polling. Same as 2020 results, same as 2016 results, no real change there.

Virginia: not as much polling, but may also effectively be a tossup at this point. Biden won Virginia by 10 points in 2020.

Also, in several states, Democrats who are running for Senate have poll numbers running as much as ten points ahead of Biden's polling in the same state. Gallego is leading in Arizona, Rosen is leading in Nevada, Kaine is leading in Virginia, Casey is leading in Pennsylvania, Baldwin is leading in Wisconsin. Sherrod Brown is leading in red Ohio.

(This is all before the debate, of course.)
posted by gimonca at 4:26 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

Well Biden “lost” this debate because he’s just not capable anymore. We all know what Trump is like. That’s grandfathered in. But a lot of people who just a few hours ago would scream blue murder if you said Biden wasn’t capable anymore just had the wool pulled from their eyes.

And for those now trying to pivot to Harris - she’s an incoherent mess as well. Trump would beat her like a gong.
posted by awfurby at 4:26 AM on June 28 [14 favorites]

I have a feeling, for no reason other than blind hope, perhaps, that in the next debate, Biden will be very different. Better, that is. On point, on the attack, like he was in the SOTU speech, like in past debates.
posted by zardoz at 4:27 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

Well yes, hopefully next time they'll slip him a dexy at least. Impossible to understand why that wasn't an option this time.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:30 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

For all the disaster that the debate was, if Biden does well next debate, this debate doesn’t matter. If I were trump id never debate him again. Just run ads of an old man clearly dying on a dais.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:41 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

Oh my god, there's gonna be another debate?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 4:45 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

“At first it was shocking, then it was scary, then it was sad, then it was absurd.”

The Pod Save America team give a brutally honest recap of the debate in their latest podcast
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:46 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

If only Gretchen Whitmer…
posted by marlys at 4:47 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

If Biden is the candidate, Trump wins. If I'm wrong, I'll take great pleasure in eating my words on November 6th, but I'm not wrong.
posted by Optamystic at 5:10 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Optamystic: I'll take great pleasure in eating my words

Well, that depends on what kind of cake you bake to write them on, and how well it turns out.
posted by Too-Ticky at 5:16 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

Not running your incumbent is an admission that the highest-profile, winningest guy you got is a loser who can't even secure the support of his own party. It's a PR catastrophe

You know what else is a PR catastrophe? Running a convicted rapist who lead an unprecedented, violent insurrection against the government and then absconded highly classified memos about nuclear secrets.

EXCEPT THAT IT ISN'T A PR CATASTROPHE.

Is it so difficult to grasp that we're way the fuck off in unprecedented territory with this election? That conventional wisdom hasn't done jack shit to keep Trump out of the race so far?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:28 AM on June 28 [39 favorites]

National two-party first past the post electoral-college-gated elections are so far from participatory democracy that of course everyone feels bad and helpless. The stakes are so high and the people with the power to sway things all seem to be working toward the end of our democratic experiment.

If Trump wins, the only way Democrats will be able to retake the broken machinery of power is to play the game of celebrity warfare and recruit Taylor Swift as nominee, if the country lasts that long. The fact that our system has gotten to this point shows how broken it is, but how do you repair it while one side is slavering for an end to birth control?

It's scary out there. Be good to one another. It's only going to get rougher for a while now.
posted by rikschell at 5:29 AM on June 28 [12 favorites]

Draft Whitmer. That is all.
posted by BigBrooklyn at 5:32 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

The whole "we can't replace Biden because he's the Team Leader and replacing him would make us look weak" argument rings false to me, as does the "he's a household name" argument.

Biden is trailing "generic Dem" in every poll by like ten points. He's trailing every specific Dem by ten points. And time and again, the reasons people give for that is because THEY THINK HE SHOULD BE IN HOSPICE.

While I agree that he usually has stronger and more lucid moments than he did last night, he's also had a lot of really bad moments. The State of the Union went great for him; it had me hopeful that this debate would go great for him. But Biden's reputation is "terrifyingly old," and a lot of people who currently think of the Democrat Party as corrupt and craven and useless think that because of how it pushes this old fuckin' guy onto people. That was an issue in 2020, and it's a much worse issue now, because Biden has gotten visibly, demonstrably worse.

And a politician's job is to speak. To persuade. To be a public figure. To reassure audiences. To serve as the face of a nation to powerful private audiences. If the job was just "have good opinions," well, it wouldn't be politics.

I'm sincerely of the opinion that virtually any other Dem would do better against Trump than Biden would, because every scrap of data that we have makes a strong case for that being true. And while I don't think that Biden's completely fucked in November, I do think that we're gonna get a five-month news cycle about how old and senile Biden is, and it'll hit way worse than Hillary's emails ever did, and honestly I just do not want the Dems to run a guy who at the very most optimistic is a coin toss at best when running against a convicted felon, on account of he's really goddamn old.

I don't love Kamala, I don't think she's a particularly inspiring or brilliant politician, but if they let her run, I think she's win. Because the issue isn't that people like Trump—he's really fucking unpopular too. But Biden is as unpopular as Trump is, and the single biggest reason why is that people think he has brain worms, and last night will make people think that a whole lot worse. That abortion-to-immigration ramble will be played on every major news station every day from now till November.

And the "ageist" line of reasoning is as bullshit here as it was with Dianne Feinstein, whom people insisted it was ageism to dislike even as major news stories broke about her literal dementia. I fully believe in Biden's ability to be a reasonably intelligent and lucid 80-year-old man. What I don't believe in is his ability to either handle the intense demands of his office or to persuade America that he can. That's a real material problem, and it's ridiculous to the point of self-parody that people would suggest otherwise.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:32 AM on June 28 [50 favorites]

How many of the current swing-state voters who think "throw the bums out" is the default response to dissatisfaction with the state of the world - like most other polities! - do you think will have changed their mind? How many do you think will join their ranks?
posted by lalochezia at 5:35 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

After sleeping on it some more, I hope Joe leans into a "awesome but little old grandpa" thing,

"yeah yeah, I was off on the debate, was running a cold and frankly missed off at having to debate a convicted felon who lies t hrough his teeth. Damn straight I wanted to be home and napping, that guys is ridiculous"

Rinse and repeat.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:36 AM on June 28 [15 favorites]

It's genuinely shocking, to me, to see so many prominent Joe Biden supporters all publicly ask him to drop out. Walter Shapiro at The New Republic, whose whole beat is spinning Joe positively... Nicholas Kristof... Matt Yglesias...

Stories of Dems wanting Biden to drop out are at the top of the NYT and the WaPo. I can't remember the last time I've seen such abrupt momentum.

Bare minimum, this means the debate isn't just gonna get talked about, it's gonna be a sensation. Which is catastrophic for Biden, if he sticks in. But this feels like it might be genuinely big enough to push Biden out of the race. Here's fucking hoping.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:39 AM on June 28 [10 favorites]

Best meme from the internet: "The winner of the debate was the Voyager spacecraft, 'cause it's speeding away from Earth."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:41 AM on June 28 [43 favorites]

> Like others in this thread have already reminded us, Obama lost his 1st debate, too.

this is a whole other can of worms. no candidate has ever come out on stage acting like he missed his dose of Donepezil. the winner or loser is typically decided by some idiotic media punditry. this time it was decided by age related mental decay. biden is clearly not in full command of his faculties and it’s not going to get better. Ageism! He’s not 65, he’s not even the fairly spry 77 of 2020. seriously watch the first 5 minutes of biden in the 2020 debate and compare it to this one. the man is cooked! he’s 81, well past the age of retirement, at an age where frankly he should not be allowed to hold power. it’s so completely insane that the democrats are so shambolic, so narcissistic and cowardly a party that they have left us with this decrepit decaying husk as our last defense against the very real threat of a complete fascist capture of the federal government.
posted by dis_integration at 5:46 AM on June 28 [25 favorites]

This is how I'm feeling this morning:

Democratic Party, all throughout the race: Given how absolutely important this election is, any criticism or lack of enthusiasm for Biden means you're imperiling the very future of western democracy.

Me, before the debate: [reluctantly] Ok. Anything to keep Trump from getting reelected.

Biden, at the debate: [casually imperils the very future of western democracy]

Me, after the debate: Fuck.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:47 AM on June 28 [30 favorites]

Just watched two minutes of the debate. Biden’s brain is mush. Even putting a suit on him seems like elder abuse. What a fucking shit show.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:48 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

Apparently they gave Biden the wrong drugs.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:54 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

This has me revisiting the question of why they pushed to have this debate so early. Imagine if this had been in September.
posted by joeyh at 5:54 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I'm sincerely of the opinion that virtually any other Dem would do better against Trump than Biden would

Folks think we already tried this in 2016, and Secretary Clinton lost.

Your typical American has no idea who “Whitmer” even is. It’s grim out here, ya’ll.
posted by edithkeeler at 5:57 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

Folks think we already tried this in 2016, and Secretary Clinton lost.

well I'm not saying they should nominate Clinton

because clearly they should nominate Jimmy Carter instead
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:58 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Who are the people who would turn out for some unknown but good dem but would not turn out for Biden? I imagine they group is very small.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:59 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

The group is very small. But a small group is all it's going to take to tip the scale.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 6:00 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

Folks think we already tried this in 2016, and Secretary Clinton lost.

Again, Biden won. Yes. Sure.

By less than 60,000 votes across three states against a man with a six figure body count and 4 years of scandal a day. A DAY. I do not think a single day went past without some kind of dreadful faux pas at a minimum.

Who are the people who would turn out for some unknown but good dem but would not turn out for Biden? I imagine they group is very small.

Maybe as small as 60,000 voters spread across three critical states?
posted by Slackermagee at 6:01 AM on June 28 [17 favorites]

I really wish someone close to him had talked to Biden and convinced him not to run for a second term. Maybe someone will have the courage to do it now. We have enough timeto build up a new candidate and if they pick someone with a drop of charisma I think the news focus on the unprecedented situation can be a net positive. And of course, the Republicans are relying more on hatred of Biden than lovw for Trump. Forcing them to redo their opposition research and denying them the benefit of the last four years building up a Pavlovian response to his name would be useful.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:09 AM on June 28 [7 favorites]

Heather Cox Richardson June 27 2024:

This was not a debate. It was Trump using a technique that actually has a formal name, the Gish gallop, although I suspect he comes by it naturally. It’s a rhetorical technique in which someone throws out a fast string of lies, non-sequiturs, and specious arguments, so many that it is impossible to fact-check or rebut them in the amount of time it took to say them. Trying to figure out how to respond makes the opponent look confused, because they don’t know where to start grappling with the flood that has just hit them.

It is a form of gaslighting, and it is especially effective on someone with a stutter, as Biden has. It is similar to what Trump did to Biden during a debate in 2020. In that case, though, the lack of muting on the mics left Biden simply saying: “Will you shut up, man?” a comment that resonated with the audience. Giving Biden the enforced space to answer by killing the mic of the person not speaking tonight actually made the technique more effective.

There are ways to combat the Gish gallop—by calling it out for what it is, among other ways—but Biden retreated to trying to give the three pieces of evidence that established his own credentials on the point at hand. His command of those points was notable, but the difference between how he sounded at the debate and how he sounded on stage at a rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, just an hour afterward suggested that the technique worked on him.

(Or to put it another way - pre-debate it seemed lots of folks were excited by (and the Trump campaign angry about) the condition of mics being muted; because then Trump couldn't just keep talking and bulldoze over Biden when it was supposed to be Biden's turn. But the enforced turn taking actually worked in Trump's favor, since he could spew bullshit for two minutes straight and Biden couldn't call him out on it in real time.)

2 minute user clip from C-Span of some of Biden's Raleigh speech for anyone interested in the contrast between his debate performance and his "normal" presentation. (There seems to be a lot of "Where the hell was that Biden an hour ago?" commentariat online.)
posted by soundguy99 at 6:09 AM on June 28 [38 favorites]

Seeing the collection of news alerts on my phone this morning was actually shocking. And I was bracing it!

That’s terrifying.

The way forward is still for people to stay engaged, do grassroots work, and stay focused but sheesh that seems like dispiriting work these days.
posted by mazola at 6:10 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

I think the people who say it would be easy to replace Biden with a different candidate and that said candidate would easily beat Trump are making some huge assumptions. That would require the Dems being lockstep in a way that they can hardly manage to be on a good day.

If Biden steps aside it would have to be for Harris, and I just don't see anything about a 5-month Harris--?? campaign being easy.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:12 AM on June 28 [12 favorites]

I think you can do it if you also play some of the dirtiest pool American politics has ever seen. There's presumably a ton of despicable things uncovered in the various Trump investigations. You get it, you leak it, and you keep leaking worse material every time the news starts to question where and why it's coming out.

ESPECIALLY if SCOTUS rules for presidential immunity. Go wild! Were there documents on spies at Mar a Lago and one of them died mysteriously overseas? Gold. Leak it, have proxies ask the leading questions, be entirely without shame for 4 months as a means to preserve democracy.
posted by Slackermagee at 6:15 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Mod note: A few comments removed. Just a reminder that we're not relitigating the 2016 or 2020 elections. You are free to create your own thread about those elections, but please avoid derailing this thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:16 AM on June 28 [7 favorites]

That C-Span clip gives me hope! (is a sentence I never thought I’d say but here we are)
posted by mazola at 6:16 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

i have come to realize that my position in this presidential election is the same as in the previous one: we must do everything we can to make joe biden the last president of the united states.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:22 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

You would also need to account for the fact that there will be a nonzero amount of people who would vote for a zombie Biden but not for a generic dem.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:24 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Politifact fact check of the debate.
posted by Mitheral at 6:25 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

That C-Span clip gives me hope! (is a sentence I never thought I’d say but here we are)

Really? John Wayne movies were old when I was a kid. I've seen a lot of them, but that was because they were the cheap Sunday afternoon specials in the movie theaters.
posted by mumimor at 6:25 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

I am angry at whoever prepared Biden for the debate. Of course Trump is going to say after birth abortions. Of course he is going to declare immigrants as rapists. The response? "You're the rapist. You're the felon. You are the one who declared that being a celebrity gives you the right to assault women. Thinking celebrity is, by itself, a good thing? That's crazy. Jeffrey Dahmer was a celebrity."
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:25 AM on June 28 [18 favorites]

So.

Yeah.

Maybe, just a thought here, it might not be a good idea to keep shrieking "ageism" when people point out that the octogenarian you want to nominate is far too old for the job.

I am utterly enraged at the people who brought us this debacle and kept insisting anyone who objected was a bad Democrat, or ageist, or somehow morally wrong.

I thought I'd been mentally preparing to accept the reality of a second Trump term ever since Biden decided to take a giant shit on the Muslim voters in Michigan who pushed him over the top there in 2020. But it turns out I was wrong, I hadn't really quite accepted the reality of Trump season 2 until I watched Biden blue screen thanks to age related mental degeneration.

It wont' actually change anything but it'd sure be nice of the people who were screaming "ageism" at anyone who said Biden was too old for the job would apologize.

On Preview:

There is no realistic way for Biden to step aside at this point, and if he did there's no process in place to find a replacement candidate in short order and the shambles and chaos would probably be worse than runing Biden again.

Maybe they can give him a giant ass dose of coke or something before the next debate and try to salvage something. I don't think it'll work, but it's more realistic than replacing Biden with a better nominee.

The most obvious alternative would be Harris, and she's worse than Gore, Dukakis, and Mondale combined when it comes to being anti-charismatic and deeply disliked. Kamala the Cop isn't going to win, and before last night when I still entertained the faint hope that Biden might win in November I was dreading the inevitability of her candidacy in 2028.

I'm not sure what the procedure is if Biden dies or suffers a stroke or something between now and November, but I don't think it's going to result in a victory for whoever does replace him.
posted by sotonohito at 6:26 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

For Democrats, the day Biden botched the debate by seeming old, tired and confused was the most dispiriting day of their life. For Republicans, it was Thursday.

Tens of millions of Americans are either actively slavering for fascism, sort of against it in theory but think the Democrats would somehow be worse than that, or or so stupid and/or uninformed they’re not even sure who’s running.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:26 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

I hope Biden can turn it around because I agree that replacing him is difficult/unwise and he is mostly capable.

But I also want those who insisted over the past four years that the only way to defeat Trump is at the ballot box to know that this is the precariously fragile future you wanted.

We shouldn't be in a position where the fate of our nation can rest on whether or not an eighty year old man has a cold going into a debate.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:29 AM on June 28 [22 favorites]

Does Biden lose Michigan but Kamala wins it? I think so.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:31 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

There is no way Biden is getting replaced. Not unless he drops dead, and probably not even then. Expecting otherwise is just magical thinking.

This is what the decline of the american empire looks like, and I am definitely nervous for the Fall.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:35 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

The Daily Beast: Secrets of How Dems Ditch Biden

Just as former President Lyndon B. Johnson did in March 1968, Biden could, theoretically, call it quits on his re-election campaign.

Yet even if Biden were to somehow make way for the “new generation” of leadership he once alluded to, there’s one big problem with that thought experiment.

A brokered convention—something the Biden campaign has actively planned to avoid, and a throwback to the smoke-filled-rooms era of U.S. politics predating 1968—would be the only way to get rid of Joe.

Unfortunately for Democrats entertaining that fantasy, something else would need to happen for the party to somehow hit the reset button on its nominee.

Vice President Kamala Harris, after everything she’s done to become the first woman vice president and the highest ranking Black woman politician in American history, would also have to call it quits.

“Brokered conventions only exist in the context of people coming into the convention without enough delegates,” a senior Democratic strategist explained to The Daily Beast, requesting anonymity to discuss the most taboo topic in party circles at the moment.

Harris, whose approval ratings have also been historically low—and, somehow, consistently lower than Biden’s by a few points—would need to step aside to open up the floor for a truly brokered convention. Otherwise, she would likely inherit Biden’s delegates as his official running mate.

There’s no other way to do it, the Democratic strategist said, than by truly opening that can of worms.

There is no “methodology by which someone who would be the nominee could become not the nominee, because he will win on the first ballot,” the strategist said.

posted by soundguy99 at 6:37 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

2 minute user clip from C-Span of some of Biden's Raleigh speech for anyone interested in the contrast between his debate performance and his "normal" presentation. (There seems to be a lot of "Where the hell was that Biden an hour ago?" commentariat online.)
posted by soundguy99 at 6:09 AM

what the hell happened indeed. But the fucking NYT front page today. I hate the media.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:38 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

Biden is clearly NOT capable and the idea that he's actually Presidenting is laughable and frankly has been since he was elected. They've been doing the Weekend at Bernie's thing for the past 4 years, or the Reagan thing if that's a nicer way of saying it.

And I don't give a shit.

I hate the very concept of the President as monarch and to a large extent I don't actually care which individual occupies the office because what matters is who they surround themselves with. In Biden's case the answer is "the most insiderey of insiders in the Democratic Party" which isn't great but it beats Steve Bannon so I'll take it.

The President isn't a figurehed, but as Reagan, Junior, and now Biden have all proved it's entirely possible to have a fairly successful Presidency (by your party's definition of success) based on a do nothing President and a cabinet and other insiders doing the real work. We know that during Junior's terms the real President was Cheney. During Reagant's terms there wasn't a single real President and his entire Presidency was characterized by various factions vying to be that real President.

I have no idea who the real President has been for the past 4 years. And to an extent I don't much care because they weren't Republicans and as a leftist "not actually Republicans" is the best I can expect from any Democrat.

But let's live in reality here instead of retreating into the enjoyable fantasy that Biden has been real President or capable of being real President. The past four years have been run by various powers behind the throne while Biden pretended to be President. He was clearly mentally incapable in 2020, anyone who wasn't high off the DNC's supply could see that. If the Democratic voters had been honest htey'd have admitted in 2020 that they were voting for "the chaotic Democratic coalition who would really run things" not "Joseph Biden".

But illusions matter, and I'm not sure as many Democratic voters are willing to admit to themselves that they don't really care if Biden is mentally competent or not. I don't, except for the fact that it makes him even more unelectable than he already was.
posted by sotonohito at 6:40 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Biden is easily replaced before the convention if it comes to that. The DNC can rewrite the rules so that the delegates are no longer bound. If Jefferies and Schumer, backed by bid donors and the SEIU and NEA, put out a letter recommending that, it's done.

After the convention, Biden is hard to replace against his will. It's not clear the DNC has the capacity to remove him as nominee. In theory it could adopt a resolution saying "a vote for Biden is a vote for __" and instruct the Electors to follow suit, but in many states the Electors would be committing a crime not to vote for whoever is on the ballot.

Israel/Gaza is Harris's biggest challenge. She has been the Administration's designated dove, with quiet messaging that it's not be worried about given her husband's ardent Zionism, but that hardly will do it if she's running for President. She'll need to much stronger for Israel and she probably won't love that.
posted by MattD at 6:42 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

Sure, Chuck Schumer will have Biden taken off the ticket. Well, that's a fucking relief. Wow! I was worried.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:48 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Sotonohito - at a basic level I think most people recognize that you're electing a team and an ideology more than an individual (my point on Fetterman from last night).

But, this morning, what people around me are asking is who, literally, is making Presidential decisions with full faculties now, because it is now obvious that it cannot be Joe Biden, at least some of the time. Answering that question has now become critical. It's got to be something that Federalist Society lawyers are thinking about very hard in terms of potential nullification of Biden Administration acts they can allege were made by an incompetent.
posted by MattD at 6:52 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I caution people about spinning out scenarios where Biden gets replaced as the nominee in the convention - it's theoretically possible, but in reality pretty difficult and would set off a lot of chaos. The obvious parallel is LBJ, but that was earlier in the primaries and when the primary system itself was still in a state of flux from the old convention system to the modern, tightly controlled primary process. And, LBJ was very much his own man and a very savvy political operator.

In this case, Biden and Harris would have to publicly step aside voluntarily (even if they were both presented with "deals they can't refuse" privately) to release their delegates. Nobody in the Democratic Party leadership has had the experience of the convention being thrown wide open after the primary race was already sown up.

If...if...if. There are so many huge assumptions and unknowns. I could very well be wrong, but I am still convinced we are getting a Biden vs Trump matchup, and sorry guys, I think Trump is the probable favorite to win.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:53 AM on June 28

Bring on the difficult chaos please. It's preferable to a second Trump term.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:55 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Harris’ biggest challenge is her weird uncanny-valley communication skills. She’s poorly focus-grouped and sounds unnatural; she alienates left, right, and center; she ran a terrible primary campaign and was soundly rejected. Is some of it sexism and racism? Yes. But not all of it.
posted by argybarg at 6:55 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

If you, like me, are dispirited after last night's debacle (low energy vs lies) the only thing to do is to put your nose to the grindstone and stay focused on the upcoming election. We all saw what we saw (although I could see only a bit of it before going back to playing endless games of solitaire) but Biden is the candidate and there is no way that will change. The Biden administration has been the most progressive administration since Roosevelt and I wish, oh how I wish, he had been able to communicate that. But I'm not sure debates matter in changing minds; they sure matter to click bait minded media outlets like the NYT and pollsters but for most unengaged US voters, I don't think so.

As someone upthread said, Democrats are panicking and for Republicans it's Thursday. Down ballot candidates matter too, both local and state and we need to continue to work.
posted by bluesky43 at 6:58 AM on June 28 [14 favorites]

Debates don’t usually matter, but this one will. If there is an emergency parachute, someone at least has to try to pull it.
posted by argybarg at 7:02 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

There is no way Biden is getting replaced. Not unless he drops dead, and probably not even then. Expecting otherwise is just magical thinking.

peak metafilter
posted by lalochezia at 7:05 AM on June 28 [16 favorites]

I'm voting for Biden over a liar. He's old, so what? Is that all you got?
posted by Catblack at 7:06 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

I'll wait until midweek next week before deciding what's next. When good polling comes in. It will probably hurt, but not so much as the idiotic CNN poll with 5% plus Republicans (when self-declaring Republicans are in the minority).
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:07 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

Kittens, not sure the vector of your sarcasm. You should be relieved that the system has relief valves and escape hatches for contingencies of all sorts. For all that they both live in Brooklyn, Schumer and Jefferies represent a nice diversity of background, experience, support and mindset. Making this kind of call is part of of their jobs, and presumably each will do his best about it.

Fortitude, you are incorrect about the rules. It's straightforward - albeit unprecedented - to unbind the delegates.

And I think it would help Democrats win in November. A convention that mattered, without a canned result, with a robust contest about which variety of center-left ideas should be front and center, and that would end three days later with a unifying candidate. Can't imagine anything more exciting for Americans than that. And the comparison to the Republican convention would be striking, given that Trump won without any real contest and continues to be the subject of MUCH ambivalence (and not a little antipathy) among the Republican establishment.
posted by MattD at 7:07 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

I listened to Biden and recognized the reaction when I have several answers that all want to come out of my mouth at once: I know my facts and I am passionate and I can make the arguments.... But they won't wait their turn and I kind of lock up for a second.

Dude's not senile, he's just got too much to say in the face of that firehose of bullshit. How do you choose which item to refute first?
posted by wenestvedt at 7:10 AM on June 28 [32 favorites]

there is no plausible replacement scheme — the chaos it would cause would result in the democrats likely losing nearly every state — but the closest thing to a non-implausible replacement scheme would be to replace biden with someone who already has extremely high name recognition and who is already beloved by a majority of the population

which means it’s gotta be a celebrity. at first as stated above i thought clooney but upon consideration tom hanks is likely the least-bad choice
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:11 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

And I dont believe that there are more voters who would object to Hariss's policies than there are voters who would object to her color.

Sad to say, but racism is way more common -- and powerful -- than an interest in governance.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:13 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

Dude's not senile, he's just got too much to say in the face of that firehose of bullshit. How do you choose which item to refute first?

Have your own prepared trains of thought. This is one thing Trump did very well, he kept going back to several basic (though insane) points. Joe should have kept hammering home Roe v Wade, Trump lies, Jan 6, and he's a convicted felon with more trials on the way. Trying to argue point by point with Trump just feeds into Trump's points.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:13 AM on June 28 [25 favorites]

Look on the bright side everyone, if Biden is replaced, and the Dems lose, we can look forward to a lifetime of "Biden would have won" takes.
posted by guiseroom at 7:16 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Tom hanks for president! Run forest run!
posted by samthemander at 7:22 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

Trump delivered what he always delivers, lies. Biden, on the other hand, did not do his usual. He was nothing like his SOTU address. Assuming anyone could possibly be "undecided", Biden certainly did not come off as convincing. The Democrats have some serious decisions to make and quickly.
posted by tommasz at 7:24 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

I liked this summation of this debate and Biden. This was 90 minutes and a terrible performance by Biden, but time passes quickly in politics, so let's not think it's the end of the world.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:24 AM on June 28 [12 favorites]

Have your own prepared trains of thought.

Exactly. I have no idea what that week-long prep session was for if not for this.
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:25 AM on June 28 [10 favorites]

If the Democratic voters had been honest htey'd have admitted in 2020 that they were voting for "the chaotic Democratic coalition who would really run things" not "Joseph Biden".

As a Democratic voter who said that in 2020, I'll say it again in 2024. That's exactly correct. I voted for Not Trump and was pleased when Not Trump won that election.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Chip Roy: I intend to put forth a resolution calling upon the @VP to immediately use her powers under section 4 of the 25th Amendment to convene & mobilize the principal officers of the Cabinet to declare the @POTUS is unable to successfully discharge the duties and powers of his office.

Which has absolutely zero power to require any action, but... there's their messaging for the next six months. Nothin' but good times ahead.
posted by delfin at 7:28 AM on June 28 [7 favorites]

Mod note: Comment removed. Please avoid conspiracy type comments, thanks.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:29 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

I just hope that the Biden team realizes that engaging in debate with Trump is an insane thing to do, and vow not to repeat their mistake. Some advisors should definitely lose their jobs, to boot.

When you debate someone, you grant them legitimacy. Your willingness to debate demonstrates a tacit admission that your opponents ideas are *worth* debating. The entire Democratic Party messaging this cycle has been that Trump is a liar, a fascist insurrectionist, and a threat to democracy. Engaging him in debate totally undermines that position.

Biden's line from day one should have been: "I have nothing to say to that criminal."
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:29 AM on June 28 [18 favorites]

Biden was said to have a cold. I hope he didn't take a cold remedy with an antihistamine.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:42 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

And I think it would help Democrats win in November. A convention that mattered, without a canned result, with a robust contest about which variety of center-left ideas should be front and center, and that would end three days later with a unifying candidate.

To the few thousand people that read Metafilter, maybe, but to the average low info person in the street I don't know if it would catalyze in the same way. Honestly, I don't know and I'm not feeling very confident right now, so pretty much status quo.
posted by Literaryhero at 7:42 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I'm not sure about this Tom Hanks guy.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 7:48 AM on June 28 [56 favorites]

A convention that mattered, without a canned result, with a robust contest about which variety of center-left ideas should be front and center, and that would end three days later with a unifying candidate.

This seems more of the same that all the Dems have to do is appeal to people's better nature and people will do the "right" thing. I don't see how a party that already gets tons of shit for not listening to their voters is also supposed to nominate a candidate that the vast majority of those voters never voted for after three days of robust and respectful debate.
posted by girlmightlive at 7:49 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

which means it’s gotta be a celebrity.

Gather round, grandchildren, and let me tell you a story called How Oprah Saved The World.
posted by nobody at 7:50 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

I hope the Biden team realizes that we're all extremely stressed out about the election and because of that we're going to freak the fuck out whenever Biden has a bad day or stumbles even a little.

Not to at all downplay the threat that they're warning us about, but when you send out messages like this in your fundraising emails

Here’s the truth: Donald Trump is running a campaign of revenge and retribution. He wants to forever alter what we stand for as a country, to throw decency, honesty, and integrity all by the wayside. And he will hurt anyone to help himself.

after having put in a pretty lackluster appearance at the debate, people are going to question whether or not you're the right guy to stand up to Trump because you obviously weren't able to at this juncture.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:51 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

I know Heather Cox Richardson (linked above) and Robert Hubble have always been cheerleaders for Biden, and today's columns have been no different, but it's good to read their stuff, especially today.
Hubbel:

What concerns me more than Joe Biden’s performance is the fragile and defeatist comments from many Democrats being quoted by media sources.
...
Worse, a few readers suggested Biden should drop out by repeating media lies that “Democratic operatives” are saying that the Democratic party will replace Biden.
...
The hypocrisy and double standard is sickening. One candidate on the stage lied from start to finish. And no one is suggesting that he drop out.
...

posted by MtDewd at 7:51 AM on June 28 [18 favorites]

Time to get to work.
posted by MtDewd at 7:52 AM on June 28 [15 favorites]

The "average low info person" does consume news in some fashion - maybe on TikTok, maybe TV, but big political moments do filter out. Specifics on policy no, but vibes and spectacle, yes. A convention that was exciting could reach a range of people - especially if the party apparatus makes sure to make it a spectacle and is strategic with who they invite (celebrity, youth, activists, etc.) to witness it.
posted by coffeecat at 7:58 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

We always knew that as long as Trump didn't visibly soil himself or say the N word out loud, he was going to be declared the winner.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:07 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

I just donated to Biden’s campaign- frankly that’s one of the metrics that our horse race journalists follow.

We are beyond logic and reason here - yes, Biden is old but won’t destroy the country vs a raving lunatic and convinced felon. I read Heather Cox Richardson this morning as well but I think we’re so far down the rabbit hole only lots of work that neither Biden nor the DNC are capable of doing will change things.

Hope is not a strategy. Focus on swing states, get the VP out there, get Taylor Swift out there. Not the time to hold back on anything. Put your differences aside and vote for Not Trump if you have to.
posted by Farce_First at 8:11 AM on June 28 [15 favorites]

joseph robinette biden, on roe v wade

"Look, there's so many young women who have been - including a young woman who just was murdered and he - he went to the funeral. The idea that she was murdered by a - by -by an immigrant coming in, and they talk about that. But here's the deal, there's a lot of young women who are being raped by their - by their in-laws, by their - by their spouses, brothers and sisters, by - just - it's just - it's just ridiculous. And they can do nothing about it."

thanks joe. this is a winning message and i'm glad to see we're all stuck with it.
posted by nourishedbytime at 8:12 AM on June 28 [26 favorites]

Okay, I'm a pretty big Biden fan, probably a bigger fan of the guy himself than most on MetaFilter, but I disagree with the folks saying "he's going to be the nominee no matter what, he won't drop out, don't even talk about it." There are some good reasons not to talk about it, but that's not one of them. He could absolutely drop out. And if the people around him-- his team, his close friends, Jill Biden-- if they sat him down and said "Look, we're sorry-- you've done a great job, better than you're being given credit for, but we, your friends and closest loved ones, think it's best to step aside"-- he would probably do that. I realize that the narrative a lot of folks are running with here is that he, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg, was too prideful to step aside when he had the chance, but I don't think that's what happened. I think at some level a conversation happened between Biden and his aides after it became clear Trump was going to run again about the best way to stop him in 2024, and the consensus that emerged was that Biden had to run again too. And that's a reasonable conclusion to make at the time. Biden's the only person who's ever defeated Trump in a national election, ergo, Biden should be the one to run against him.

I don't know if Biden stepping aside is the best move. I think he and the people I mentioned, his trusted confidantes, need to be very, very frank right now and decide if this was a one-time thing, a terrible confluence of Biden having an off-day, possibly being sick, and pretty much every president having a rough time with their first reelection debate. If that's the case, then Biden can come back from this. If he hits the campaign trail vigorously, if he lays into Trump, if he comes into that second debate with the kind of performance he needed to have tonight, then this will be a speed bump, not a game changer, and he should stay at it. If they don't come to that conclusion, if they do decide this wasn't a one-off and Biden just doesn't have the stamina and the vigor to prosecute the case against Donald Trump, then it's absolutely possible that Biden steps aside. 100% possible.

I think it's completely unhelpful, and par for the course from Democrats, to have that conversation publicly. I don't know what the 'Democratic operatives' who were blowing up pundits' phones about replacing Biden on the ticket were thinking other than some vain hope of making headlines. That conversation should not involve random assholes with big egos who think 'political operative' is, like, the loftiest title you can aspire to in life. It should involve the Biden family and their closest friends. They're the ones who are actually in a position to know.

Also, I know some folks are sick of being accused of repeating Republican talking points, but... seriously? Implying Biden has dementia? Regurgitating the far-right's beloved (and tired) joke about elder abuse? Nah.
posted by Method Man at 8:13 AM on June 28 [17 favorites]

I am still sorting out my opinions about the debate itself. But I do know one thing: if this leads to an uptick in the other D candidates begging for funding in their own races, the way that the Dodds decision did, I'm going to want to punch things.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:16 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

I've found the perfect way to sublimate my feelings: watching S2 of The West Wing again to truly melt my brain into ultimate electoralism mode
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:18 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

On polling: Democrats keep over performing in every special election. That’s your real poll. Biden is super old and looked it. But there is a pattern in the special elections.
posted by kerf at 8:18 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I think he and the people I mentioned, his trusted confidantes, need to be very, very frank right now and decide if this was a one-time thing

he's been acting like this in public for months.

I don't know what the 'Democratic operatives' who were blowing up pundits' phones about replacing Biden on the ticket were thinking other than some vain hope of making headlines

they watched him put on the worst debate performance of our lifetimes last night.

Implying Biden has dementia?

i am not implying it. i am straight up saying explicitly that based on his performance this man is unfit to lead - and this has been evident to many of us for MONTHS!!!!!! you can paint me with whatever brush you want to make it sound like OBSERVING REALITY is a far right talking point and none of it will matter because he effectively just shat his pants live on stage for millions of people to watch.
posted by nourishedbytime at 8:23 AM on June 28 [17 favorites]

Nourishedbytime - there's really no need for yelling and multiple exclamation points.
posted by bluesky43 at 8:26 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

it's not yelling we are all on a website where we communicate via typing.
posted by nourishedbytime at 8:27 AM on June 28 [19 favorites]

idk though, some of us have been saying the same shit on this site about the democrats since 2015, have been continually proven right over and over again, and even after a historic nadir like last night (followed up with one-two-punch nadir of today's supreme court decisions) we still have people on MetaFilter who are truly Ride Or Die For Dems. meanwhile even ghouls like Thomas Friedman are saying he needs to step down lol. he looks cooked to me folks but i'm just a silly leftist so what do i know.
posted by nourishedbytime at 8:28 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

<removes stone from pile labeled "it's too risky to consider other candidates now">

<places stone on pile labeled "it's too risky not to consider other candidates now">
posted by gurple at 8:31 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

It’s only yelling if it’s in all caps.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:37 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

i am not implying it. i am straight up saying explicitly that based on his performance this man is unfit to lead - and this has been evident to many of us for MONTHS!!!!!!

I've watched Biden for months and we're seeing different people. Yeah he's old and moves stiffly but the job of president isn't moving boxes (even at Mar-a-Lago you have staff to do that).

Go to C-Span and watch events with Biden. You'll find boring politics. Look at what policy has been rolled out in the face of obstructionism. Things have progressed in real and important ways.

Debates are rhetoric as much as I'd like facts and policy (and truth!) to matter. Not a surprise that the advantage goes to Reality TV President unburdoned by facts or record. It was like when Bill Nye debated a creationist, a debate works when people are on the same playing field (or planet).

I empathize with Biden because I don't know how you deal with the firehose of bullshit. I think he tried to cover too many bases and it wasn't a good look. And yup he's old. And he has a stutter. And maybe a cold. But he's still reality based. I don't know how you sell that.
posted by mazola at 8:37 AM on June 28 [18 favorites]

Right now I'd really like to see Biden do a town hall with a friendly but not sanitized group of voters, maybe people who were registered Dems in a blue state. If he could converse lucidly and intelligently in an unscripted environment it would go a long way it arguing that this debate was a fluke, plus the time it would take to organize it would allow him to recover from his illness if that is what was affecting him.

If he couldn't, well, then he should step aside.
posted by Reverend John at 8:42 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

I'm voting for Biden over a liar.

Vote for the wreck, not for the wrecker.
posted by flabdablet at 8:48 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Campaign 2024: President Biden Campaigns in Raleigh, NC [C-Span]

Starts at 12:30 ET if anyone wants to check up on his state/ability.
posted by mazola at 8:52 AM on June 28 [10 favorites]

I mean, there also needs to be a clear message of what Biden wants to accomplish with a second term. He's still leaning too much into "this other guy spouts nonsense, I will keep doing what I'm doing." Even if you're someone who likes what Biden is doing, that's not a really inspiring message. His campaign slogan is "Finish the Job" - I shudder to think of the bloated salaries of the people who came up with that one. But slogan aside, it's genuinely not clear to me what his priorities would be in a second term. Sure, I realize a lot will depend on who controls Congress, but it's still a problem if it's not clear to voters what Biden actually plans to do with another four years.
posted by coffeecat at 8:53 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure about this Tom Hanks guy.

Well, you know what they say about him.
posted by y2karl at 9:02 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Mod note: One deleted, let's not wish death to other people.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:14 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

By Thomas L. Friedman

Opinion Columnist, reporting from Lisbon

I watched the Biden-Trump debate alone in a Lisbon hotel room, and it made me weep.
posted by sammyo at 9:18 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

By Thomas L. Friedman
Opinion Columnist, reporting from Lisbon
I watched the Biden-Trump debate alone in a Lisbon hotel room, and it made me weep.

every cloud....
posted by lalochezia at 9:26 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Seriously though, how fucked up does a situation have to be before even fucking Friedman is willing to come out and say how fucked up it is?
posted by flabdablet at 9:27 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I don't think "he had a cold" is a helpful response. This was an important debate, but the presidency is a lot more complicated and a lot more important than one debate night. If Biden gets that cognitively scattered from having a cold, that raises serious questions about ability to do the job. Past performance with things like the State of the Union aside, he's not always going to be on a full night's rest and in the best possible condition when he has to make critical decisions or meetings.

I'm going to vote for whoever runs against Trump; I'm going to campaign for and work on behalf of whoever runs against Trump. If that's Biden, fine. Infinitely better than the alternative. It's faintly irritating that I have to mention that when addressing, in good faith and in the company of a bunch of other Dem voters, the stone-cold facts on the ground: Joe Biden appeared unfit for the office of the presidency for at least half of the night last night, and the reasons for that unfitness are both obvious and irreparable.
posted by penduluum at 9:29 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

I think it's completely unhelpful, and par for the course from Democrats, to have that conversation publicly.

I am utterly opposed to covens of the rich and powerful deciding how things will be for us little people behind closed doors and in secret. This is EXACTLY the sort of highly important issue that should be discussed in public and with full public participation.

I might be just fantasizing or wrong, but I swear openness and transparency would be a benefit for the Democrats on everything.

I empathize with Biden because I don't know how you deal with the firehose of bullshit.

You say "my opponent is throwing out a zillion lies and I don't have time to rebut them all, so let's talk about just this one..." and then swing into whatever talking point you have that you think is either most harmful to the other person or most beneficial to yourself.

But in a setting like the "debate" Biden had an even simpler approach: completely ignore it.

There was absolutely no need for Biden to talk about anything but abortion in his abortion reply. Who gives a shit if Trump told fifteen lies in his answer, you ignore him entirely and come out with your best "Trump wants big government to get between people and their doctors, already women are dying as a result of Trump's Supreme Court picks overturning Roe." and press on from there.

The "debate" isn't a debate. It's a chance to get in zingers and get your best talking points in front of a large number of people. No one is watching the debate and thinking "Trump said QRSTUVWXY and Z but Biden only answered T so I guess he just couldn't rebut Trump on the rest."

This isn't UIL debate club, It's a sound bite generator. Victory comes not from witty arguments that impress academic judges but by dunking on your opponent and summarizing your most important talking points in a memorable way.

Biden had two jobs:

1) Don't look senile.

2) Repeat his strongest talking points and his best attcks on Trump.

He failed on both accounts.
posted by sotonohito at 9:34 AM on June 28 [15 favorites]

Reality sure is being ageist.
posted by iamck at 9:39 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

I'm going to vote for whoever runs against Trump;

for some time now, my election day mantra has been, "I will vote for whoever I think has the best chance of beating who I fear the most"

It's not anyone's idealized notion of democracy but it's pragmatic, I think, and succinct, and maybe even marketable.

And more to the point, I have found it helpful toward getting my head straight as to what democracy even is. That is, what we do on election day matters, but if that's all we do (ie: vote every two or four or whatever years), then the project is doomed anyway.
posted by philip-random at 9:42 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

Someone remind me again why we are having a presidential candidate debate in June?
posted by Sphinx at 9:43 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

FWIW: Jon Stewart's Debate Analysis
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 9:52 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Okay, the way to deal with crazy is a martial arts maneuver: you use their own weight against them. It's not easy. Jon Stewart does it well, in part, because he has talent, writers, and doesn't have to do it instantly. However, when you know the crazy that is coming you can take advantage of time and writers and preparation.
For crazy, you need to point out the crazy in a stark way that sticks to the crazy person. After birth abortions?
That is not abortion. That has nothing to do with Roe versus Wade. That is child murder. During your four years in office how often did justice department prosecute a case of killing a child after a birth and calling it an abortion? Never. It doesn't happen. It's something out of your sick imagination.
Do not go into platitudes or statistics to fight crazy. Meet it head and grab it by the horns.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:57 AM on June 28 [10 favorites]

This isn't UIL debate club...

15-20 years ago, I was at a hotel and we got on an elevator that was full of young people who were there for a debate competition. I was assuming a normal high school/college debate competition where you are judged on the merits of your arguments, and mostly this was true, but one young woman said she was competing in a new category- political debate.

I would really like to see once in my life a political debate that was scored by real debate judges.
(Rather than 'acted normal' or 'remained upright')
posted by MtDewd at 10:01 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

Someone remind me again why we are having a presidential candidate debate in June?

Someone please remind me why American elections take roughly a million years to hold, as opposed to nearly every other democracy on the planet, who can usually bang them out in like a month, tops?

Is it just an elaborate method of global psychological torture?
posted by mrjohnmuller at 10:10 AM on June 28 [12 favorites]

The Friedman oped has saved my day. Thanks for the link.
Thomas Friedman has been proven wrong about literally everything he has ever written in his entire adult life several times. You could make a living from betting against Friedman if you were so inclined.
It's Friday night. After reading the Friedman piece I can make myself a lovely dinner, watch a movie and go to bed with peace. Everything will work out fine.
posted by mumimor at 10:14 AM on June 28 [24 favorites]

Jon Stewart (upon looking at Biden on splitscreen while trump was talking) “…. a lot of people have resting 25th amendment face"

Pinboard: Biden's political superpower is that he won't have to endlessly rehash memories of tonight's debate.

It's only dementia if it originates in the corpus demensum region of the brain. What Biden has is sparkling senescence.
posted by lalochezia at 10:16 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

Honestly, people should take the time to watch Biden's rally right now. Makes me wonder what the heck happened in the debate. Biden was awful yesterday, but he's not that terrible on the regular.
posted by mazola at 10:30 AM on June 28 [10 favorites]

"I will vote for whoever I think has the best chance of beating who I fear the most"

Whether we realize it or not, under our current voting system, this is most people, most of the time.
posted by VTX at 10:31 AM on June 28 [3 favorites]

What's going on here? I'm so confused. He seems legions better today than last night. Like, I literally don't understand the turnaround or why Biden was so awful last night. Can he read well but not originate rebuttals quickly, even when coached?
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:32 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

Is it just an elaborate method of global psychological torture?

The purpose of a system is what it does.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:36 AM on June 28 [7 favorites]

Whiplash rally takeaway: really seems like Biden overprepped for the debate. He needed to just be himself. :(
posted by mazola at 10:39 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I really don't understand why Biden insists on debating given his stutter; knowing that the cheeto felon will do everything he can to sabotage him with gish gallop tactics.

Did anything similar happen when he ran for Senate? Googling turns up nothing.

I don't like JRB ( haven't forgotten Anita Hill and was Team Warren in 2020) but I think for the most part he's been a capable leader.
posted by brujita at 10:40 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

What's going on here? I'm so confused. He seems legions better today than last night.

Last night they mistakenly fielded the real Biden instead of the double.
posted by Phanx at 10:44 AM on June 28

Ironically, it feels like the debate rules they insisted on hurt Biden and helped Trump. Cutting mics removed one avenue for Trump being an obnoxious asshole, while the lack of a crowd hampered Biden's ability to be righteously angry and put a hyperfocus on his halting, mumbling normal speaking voice.

(Ofc that doesn't address Biden's manifold failure to make coherent points, or the vacant, slack-jawed look he had most of the time he wasn't speaking. But the rally shows he still has some juice left.)
posted by Rhaomi at 10:45 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

I think Trump does have an evil superpower which is to stump normal politicians. For most of us, replying to Trump's lies would have been easy.

Man, you are just talking out of your ass, there are no post term abortions, mention just one.
or
How stupid can anyone be, if we deport all the undocumented immigrants, who is going to harvest the vegetables or clean Mar a Lago? You are married to a person who was undocumented

But a politician can't say what we would say. And Trump thrives on that.
posted by mumimor at 10:46 AM on June 28 [11 favorites]

What's going on here? I'm so confused. He seems legions better today than last night. Like, I literally don't understand the turnaround or why Biden was so awful last night. Can he read well but not originate rebuttals quickly, even when coached?

Have you been around an elderly person with dementia? There are good days and bad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:50 AM on June 28 [12 favorites]

But a politician can't say what we would say. And Trump thrives on that.

But a politician can talk about their golf prowess? Com'on.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:51 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

What's going on here? I'm so confused. He seems legions better today than last night.

Sundowning.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:51 AM on June 28 [17 favorites]

No, No, dont worry, President Feinstein is fine and will make a full recovery any minute now. This is fine.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 10:52 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Also, I know some folks are sick of being accused of repeating Republican talking points, but... seriously? Implying Biden has dementia? Regurgitating the far-right's beloved (and tired) joke about elder abuse? Nah.

I am not implying it. I think Biden is in the early stages of cognitive decline. It is unsurprising he has good and bad days, but he wasn't just tired or sick last night. I might be wrong. I haven't seen anymore of him than anybody else here.But I have interacted with people in their eighties in good neurological health and people with early stages of dementia and Biden looked a lot more like the latter than the former.

And the gerontocracy is a real problem, even if right wingers male cracks about it. Remember the ghoulish efforts to keep Feinstein in office till she literally died? Pelosi is 84. Chuck Schumer is a relative infant at a mere 73.

One deleted, let's not wish death to other people.

Sorry. At this point the best I can offer in not to express it online.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:52 AM on June 28 [13 favorites]

I'm not sure how to tell you guys this, but Biden has never been a, like, great orator.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:55 AM on June 28 [14 favorites]

Can we not distance diagnose Biden with dementia, especially if you are not in fact a medical doctor?
posted by rhymedirective at 10:56 AM on June 28 [23 favorites]

I thought we weren't supposed to diagnose people by looking at them.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:58 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Some of us are old enough to remember the last years of Strom Thurmond, when he was so weak that he couldn't lift his hand to push the voting button in the Senate, so an aide would move his hand and push the button for him. There were quiet concerns expressed at the time around who was casting the actual votes: Thurmond or his aide.
posted by gimonca at 10:58 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

why not?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:59 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

Can we not distance diagnose Biden with dementia, especially if you are not in fact a medical doctor?

Medical doctors are the people who shouldn't do it. Their diagnoses carry weight. The rest of us are free to notice that both candidates are suffering some serious deficits.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:59 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

What if he's in last night's debate mode when a nuclear crisis happens? I shudder at the thought. The US Presidency is a job where you need to be sharp *all* the time, not just some of the time. This is unacceptable.
posted by cats are weird at 11:01 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

There are some reasons for optimism: There's still the chance that Trump will be in prison come November. And the upcoming hurricane season might do so much damage to the southern Trump-voting states that it swings the balance firmly toward the blue side of the aisle.
posted by JohnFromGR at 11:04 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Thanks from Florida. Good luck carrying Michigan, by the way.
posted by penduluum at 11:06 AM on June 28 [5 favorites]

No former president will ever go to prison. Not even Trump.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:09 AM on June 28 [8 favorites]

upcoming hurricane season might do so much damage to the southern Trump-voting states

As much as I'd like to take one for the team, I don't think that's how it works with hurricanes.
posted by mittens at 11:10 AM on June 28 [9 favorites]

The US Presidency is a job where you need to be sharp *all* the time, not just some of the time.

That never stopped Bush. Though he got away with it more because he was younger and people thought he was folksy. And people assumed the others around him were actually calling the shots.

They're openly discussing all the Trump loyalists they want to install, to the point that they don't even need Trump and they don't particularly care as long as they get the courts. Too bad that doesn't work with Democrats.
posted by girlmightlive at 11:12 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

When Mitt Romney trounced Barack Obama by Meave Reston, September 2016.
posted by edithkeeler at 11:13 AM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Too bad that doesn't work with Democrats.

People aren't complaining about this because they personally won't vote against Trump due to Biden's pwrformance. They are complaining because the people who haven't decided whether to vote or who to vote for are going to respond negatively to this.

No one who is voting to stop Trump is going to decide they want him in office based on this. But sadly a lot of Americans are not in fact voting with stopping Trump foremost in their minds.

The problem with running for President is that you have to appeal to people outside your party.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 11:18 AM on June 28 [20 favorites]

There's an anecdote about Adlai Stevenson running for President. A supporter said to him "Every thinking person in America will be voting for you!" He answered "Thanks! But I need a majority."

He wasn't wrong.
posted by gimonca at 11:29 AM on June 28 [37 favorites]

If you haven't watched Biden at the Raleigh rally, you should take the time. And wonder, where was that guy last night?
posted by bluesky43 at 11:35 AM on June 28 [7 favorites]

really don't understand why Biden insists on debating given his stutter; knowing that the cheeto felon will do everything he can to sabotage him with gish gallop tactics.

Because it’s the way things are done and refusing to debate would have looked weak. Same reason Trump agreed to do it. They’re both fighting a strong narrative of “this guy is past it and can’t govern effectively”. If Biden had backed out of something that every recent presidential candidate (including he himself) has done, I guarantee the result in the media would have been what it is now (“oh god he’s senile”) but times ten.
posted by AdamCSnider at 11:43 AM on June 28 [2 favorites]

I was worried but then I realized that it’s June, not October. If you are stressed I recommend taking an extended river cruise in Egypt until September. Everyone knows that the world seems a lot better when you are in da Nile.
posted by interogative mood at 11:51 AM on June 28 [6 favorites]

The problem with running for President is that you have to appeal to people outside your party.

Or even just people marginally affiliated with your party. I recently read an article arguing that this is the first election since ?? in which turnout from low propensity voters may not help Democrats.

The number one argument for Biden among the phone banking, voter registering, dyed-blue Dems I know, since 2020 really, has been he just needs to be able to get into office so his administration can operate like a generic Democratic administration. This is the most I’ve ever seen an election riding on the abstract notion of electability, arguably for both parties (Trump still has his personality cult of course but it seems a little more… low energy lately). For Biden a lot of that comes down to just not looking too fuckin old out there.
posted by atoxyl at 11:56 AM on June 28 [4 favorites]

I think it speaks volumes to Biden's character that when Trump disparagingly referred to him as "a Palestinian," he didn't take any opportunity to address the comment. John McCain's lowest-bar "well actually Muslims can be good people" town hall moment is one much beloved by center-Dems, and Genocide Joe couldn't even manage that.
posted by dusty potato at 12:01 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

They're openly discussing all the Trump loyalists they want to install, to the point that they don't even need Trump and they don't particularly care as long as they get the courts. Too bad that doesn't work with Democrats.

I mean, what are the planks the whole party is willing to work for decades towards? We've been regularly assured abortion isn't a bright-line. Can't be anything that would spook corporate groups. Can't rattle the donors or think tanks fueling this effort either. Can't threaten the position of Ivy League graduates filling these positions...

Which is to say, that sort of project takes a vision for the future and it takes a pipeline of money & people (and a separate pipeline of money to ensure there's a pipeline of people). And there's a wing of the party that has a vision, but it's not one that's palatable to existing power structures.
But "nothing will fundamentally change" doesn't exactly paint a vision you can build a Project 2045-D around.
posted by CrystalDave at 12:03 PM on June 28 [11 favorites]

This Biden tweet from an hour ago is interesting. At least they're acknowledging that he's not in top physical or mental shape anymore.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 12:23 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Yikes!
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:26 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

"Physically, I kind of suck now" is not what I expected either.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:27 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

Wow.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 12:32 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Two men, two views of America
posted by box at 12:33 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

I guess "I might be old as shit and losing my faculties but at least I'm not a sociopath" is maybe the best we're getting this fall
posted by dis_integration at 12:35 PM on June 28 [13 favorites]

Biden isn’t going down without a fight.
posted by edithkeeler at 12:36 PM on June 28 [4 favorites]

Fighting his pillow!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:41 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Fighting his pillow!

No one thinks you’re funny.
posted by azpenguin at 12:44 PM on June 28 [18 favorites]

This Biden tweet from an hour ago is interesting. At least they're acknowledging that he's not in top physical or mental shape anymore.

The text of that tweet:

Folks, I might not walk as easily or talk as smoothly as I used to.

I might not debate as well as I used to.

But what I do know is how to tell the truth.

posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:48 PM on June 28 [13 favorites]

Meanwhile, some reaction from overseas:

“American democracy killed before our eyes by gerontocracy,” Guy Verhofstadt, a member of the European parliament and a former prime minister of Belgium, posted on X.

The German CDU foreign policy specialist Norbert Röttgen said: “This night will not be forgotten. The Democrats have to rethink their choices now. And Germany must prepare at full speed for an uncertain future. If we don’t take responsibility for European security now, no one will.”
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:48 PM on June 28 [12 favorites]

For gawdsakes. What a bunch of hysterical opining from Europe. Get a grip fellas.
posted by bluesky43 at 12:59 PM on June 28 [4 favorites]

Biden today: “And I know what millions of Americans know. When you get knocked down, you get back up.”
posted by edithkeeler at 12:59 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Remember when elder statesmen Biden was supposed to restore American credibility on the world stage after Trump? Would have been nice if it happened.
posted by eagles123 at 12:59 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

Ah, yes, those countries famous for their hysterical theatrics, Belgium and Germany.
posted by sagc at 1:02 PM on June 28 [10 favorites]

> For gawdsakes. What a bunch of hysterical opining from Europe. Get a grip fellas.

I dunno if you had bet your security on the readiness of the most powerful military on earth and you found out its commander in chief was a doddering old coot at the same time as Russia was knocking on your door, I'd be a bit upset.
posted by dis_integration at 1:03 PM on June 28 [19 favorites]

I'll be more upset if the doddering old coot loses to the lying rapist, to be honest.
posted by Too-Ticky at 1:06 PM on June 28 [13 favorites]

Well, I, a European, just threw up my dinner after seeing Biden's tweet.

There's something about the threat of a new fascist global order that seems bad to me.
posted by mumimor at 1:08 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Biden isn’t going down without a fight.

If this is the part where our protagonist, having let everyone down by being bested, begins a rigorous training montage set to a rocking 1980s soundtrack which culminates with him punching his opponent right in the face at the onset of their next meeting, then I'm all for that.

But if this is just going to be another four months of the same weak responses to Holy Shit Fascism that the campaign has been delivering so far, then we do deserve better.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:09 PM on June 28 [14 favorites]

I think there's some value to Biden being straightforward about his weakness. We see it with our eyes--to have it denied (as we've seen frequently in these threads, in the shoulder-patting don't-you-worry punditry) is some kind of moral injury. Trump would never do it, would never admit to a weakness or a fault, so this is a differentiator. Much better to admit it and directly ask, how much does this really matter to you, compared to the alternative? Again, who knows if it'll work, but nobody has any idea what will work, so speculating's okay.
posted by mittens at 1:15 PM on June 28 [13 favorites]

I agree getting out in front of the elephant in the room is a strong move for Biden to make today. Can’t help but notice though how it’s human nature to say “we value the truth!”, and “we value open doors dialogue with the people!” - but yet we still kind of freak out when it’s an uncomfortable truth out of Biden’s own mouth. Guess we do need some of our illusions after all.
posted by edithkeeler at 1:22 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

You never self own! Not in a basic performance like music, (wow, that went badly, huh crowd?) And definitely not as Prez.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:24 PM on June 28

“And I know what millions of Americans know. When you get knocked down, you get back up.”

who knocked him down? his own brain? it was the beginning monologue. not even responding to something TFG said!
posted by lalochezia at 1:26 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

You never self own! Not in a basic performance like music, (wow, that went badly, huh crowd?) And definitely not as Prez.

“I didn’t have sex with a porn star”

(or does that and every other self-own Trump's made not count?)
posted by RonButNotStupid at 1:36 PM on June 28 [4 favorites]

This Biden tweet from an hour ago is interesting. At least they're acknowledging that he's not in top physical or mental shape anymore.

I dunno, acknowledging a flop and moving on is kind of old school reality-based messaging.

TFG would deny a flop ever happened (as displayed for 90 minutes yesterday of celebrating his own greatness). It's the reality denial that I'm sort of fighting against.
posted by mazola at 1:36 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

if you had bet your security on the readiness of the most powerful military on earth and you found out its commander in chief was a doddering old coot at the same time as Russia was knocking on your door, I'd be a bit upset.

"Tell me you weren't politically aware in the 80s without telling me."
posted by pwnguin at 1:41 PM on June 28 [31 favorites]

The problem with aging is you keep getting older - self-owns can work when there is a reasonable claim to be made that improvement is possible - "I made a misstep here, and I'm looking forward to learning..." But a lot of people are now contemplating what Biden will be like in a year or two or three....and it's hard to be optimistic he'll be sharper.
posted by coffeecat at 1:45 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

He’ll be older but not more authoritarian so there’s that.
posted by mazola at 1:52 PM on June 28 [6 favorites]

It's not clear why, exactly, stress can make stuttering more likely. It may be because stressful thoughts and emotions cause physical tension in the throat and mouth muscles, which then disrupts speech. Or it could be that a person notices their stutter more when they're feeling dysregulated emotionally. What is clear, however, is that for many people who stutter, stress can be a major trigger. That's why it's crucial to develop strategies for both stress and the stutter itself, whether it’s deep breathing exercises, working with a speech therapist, or both.
Can Stress and Anxiety Cause Stuttering—or Make It Worse?

I wonder if this was the problem last night. Biden knew it was a high stakes debate. He was stressed, and the mental strategies that he usually deploys to keep his stuttering in check are maybe weaker due to old age.

The moments of agitation that I saw in him reminded me of a classmate of mine, who had trouble with a stutter, when he was grasping to keep his words coherent. I found that very sad.
posted by Omon Ra at 1:53 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

Tell me you weren't politically aware in the 80s without telling me

I dunno, I seem to remember that Walter Mondale wasn't a fascist and a genuine threat to the rest of the world. Things wouldn't have changed too much for Europe if Reagan had lost in '84.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:56 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

“And I know what millions of Americans know. When you get knocked down, press the button on your Life Alert.”

He’s fallen, and he can’t get up.
posted by snofoam at 2:00 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

I get we can't diagnose Biden with dementia because feelings. Can we diagnose him as being 81, or is that also off the table?
posted by iamck at 2:01 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Stress and anxiety definitely makes stuttering worse. Thank you, Omon Ra, for mentioning that. I don't doubt that Biden had rebuttals and lots of things he wanted to say, but stuttering makes it hard to get his thoughts out.
posted by ichomp at 2:02 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

I think there's some value to Biden being straightforward about his weakness

Actually being straightforward about it would involve being straightforward about some other things, though. It would be a good time to start putting a bit more into pumping up one’s successor, for example.
posted by atoxyl at 2:03 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Popehat

Me: This is bad

Agitated People: You’re not sufficiently upset about it, you’re not saying explicitly enough how bad it is to meet my emotional needs, I am going to stand here and soil myself while maintaining eye contact until you are as emotive as I am
posted by lalochezia at 2:03 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

I have an idea: Harris replaces Garland as AG and Biden nominates Whitmer/Newsom/Buttigieg/etc. as vp. Better AG, better VP, fewer MAGA talking points.
posted by zaixfeep at 2:03 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

I get we can't diagnose Biden with dementia because feelings. Can we diagnose him as being 81, or is that also off the table?

What, exactly, would this diagnosis accomplish? What practicable and effective treatment program do you have in mind?
posted by multics at 2:04 PM on June 28 [2 favorites]

What, exactly, would this diagnosis accomplish? What practicable and effective treatment program do you have in mind?

Retirement.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:05 PM on June 28 [17 favorites]

81 is a fact. Non medical diagnosis at best generates fear and is a smear. And ignores a central question: is it true?
posted by mazola at 2:06 PM on June 28 [2 favorites]

“I didn’t have sex with a porn star”

(or does that and every other self-own Trump's made not count?)

That's not a self own. A self own would be, "I couldn't get it up for the porn star."

A self own is saying, wow I did terrible. Trump has never, ever done that.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:10 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

The other day, I saw a video with a psychiatrist diagnosing Trump in a completely different way than what we usually see, which was a lot more believable, and something I hadn't thought about as a lay person. I'm not linking because in spite of this, I still think diagnosing from a distance is a bad idea.

Both candidates are old. From the point of view of someone who is 30 and is going to live in the world the candidates will create for 40+ years, they are the same age. It makes no sense to go on about Biden's age as an argument for Trump. Or for not voting, or for choosing a random third party candidate.
posted by mumimor at 2:11 PM on June 28 [6 favorites]

It would be a good time to start putting a bit more into pumping up one’s successor, for example.

I had a lot of respect for him saying he only wanted one term, and it’s not purely his fault that he’s ended up backed into the corner of running again - just a couple months ago I was arguing myself that I didn’t see who else could do it. But the main concern anyone who might vote for the man has had about him, for the past four years, is whether he’s got four more years in him. Addressing that explicitly vs. not addressing it would have a gamble but I think we just saw which choice loses quicker.
posted by atoxyl at 2:12 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

But the main concern anyone who might vote for the man has had about him, for the past four years, is whether he’s got four more years in him

I’d say the concern would be “would Biden install an administration that would continue a progressive reality-based agenda in case of an untimely passing?” and the answer is heck yeah.

OTOH a Project 2025 blueprint exists to inform TFG now and President Jr (or Ivanka or whoever) takes the mantle after him.
posted by mazola at 2:18 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

I don't believe Biden said he'd be a one-term president, though? It came up a few times in 2019 (links to a previous comment), last time was, on Dec. 11 2019, as "Joe Biden denies he is mulling a one-term pledge if elected president." (ABC) "No, I never have," Biden said when asked by a reporter on Wednesday if those discussions were taking place. "I don’t have any plans on one term." A senior adviser for Biden's campaign has also pushed back on the report, calling it "just not true."
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:23 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Would you vote for a man with a hole in his shoe?
posted by clavdivs at 2:25 PM on June 28

There were several articles that year (edit: 2020, I believe) reporting people from Biden's camp saying on background that the plan was for him to only serve one term, but he never said it publicly afaik.
posted by Gadarene at 2:25 PM on June 28 [2 favorites]

The ABC 12/11/2019 article was a swift pushback against Politico reporting earlier the same day about one-term rumors in his 'camp'. If there was buzzing in 2020, I didn't catch it.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:41 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

This thread reminds me of why I had to stop reading MeFi political threads for my own sanity.

Yes, Biden is old, and last night’s debate showcased that in a way that made it especially poignant. But today, far more news stories are running highlighting Democratic panic. All of this doom and gloom is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Romney kicked Obama’s ass in their first debate, got a four point bump in the polls, and then it evaporated and Obama won. Trump looked like an unhinged lunatic during his first debate with Clinton, and yet he still won. Biden didn’t perform well against Trump in their first debate in 2020, but still beat him.

We have five months to go, and people are already suggesting we dump Biden (alienating everyone who actually does support him), sidestep Harris (pissing off everyone who supports her), and jam someone else into the ticket that has had virtually no vetting. Honestly, I get that despair and panic can lead to bad decision making, but right now, the story “Dems Dump Biden” would be far, far more devastating than “Biden is Old.”

FWIW, Biden had an excellent rally today in Raleigh. (A really rousing Raleigh rally?). His affect and energy was 1000% better. Here’s an excerpt.

If anything, last night sets the expectations bar very low for their second debate. If Biden can bring some of today’s energy to that debate, we will all be cheering and the despair of last night will be all but forgotten.

We are only in the first quarter of this particular game. We fumbled the ball last night and the opposing team ran it in for a touchdown. It’s a disappointment, but this game is not over. Just get out and vote, and get your family and neighbors to do so, as well. We need everyone to stay energized — please! — and not let one bad night crush our spirits and derail everything. The stakes are too high for too many.
posted by darkstar at 2:42 PM on June 28 [31 favorites]

They need to schedule the next debate before his bedtime. I think that will help.
posted by skippyhacker at 2:44 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

Popehat

Me: This is bad

Agitated People: You’re not sufficiently upset about it, you’re not saying explicitly enough how bad it is to meet my emotional needs, I am going to stand here and soil myself while maintaining eye contact until you are as emotive as I am

I'm thinking he's talking about the Supremes, specifically Chevron
posted by achrise at 2:45 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

Folks are really not talking enough about the end of Chevron deference.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:48 PM on June 28 [13 favorites]

The post debate polling seems to suggest that American's don't care about Biden's debate performance. Both candidates negative went up and the overall who they are voting for numbers are unchanged.
posted by interogative mood at 2:50 PM on June 28 [10 favorites]

We need everyone to stay energized — please! — and not let one bad night crush our spirits and derail everything.

You guys had uncrushed spirits?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:55 PM on June 28 [18 favorites]

Relax, folks, the Onion has got this.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:58 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

The other day, I saw a video with a psychiatrist diagnosing Trump in a completely different way than what we usually see, which was a lot more believable, and something I hadn't thought about as a lay person. I'm not linking because in spite of this, I still think diagnosing from a distance is a bad idea.

Let me guess -- Bandy X. Lee, amirite? Who Alan Dershowitz got fired from Yale for psychoanalysizing Donald Trump at Scientific American's behest -- five days after January 6th 2021. I have been a long time subscriber to her substack. She is someone not to be trifled with. Plus the X is for Xenobia -- how cool is that?
posted by y2karl at 3:03 PM on June 28 [6 favorites]

Reports of Biden's demise have been greatly exaggerated.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 3:08 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

NYT Editorial Board: To Serve His Country, President Biden Should Leave the Race

As it stands, the president is engaged in a reckless gamble. There are Democratic leaders better equipped to present clear, compelling and energetic alternatives to a second Trump presidency. There is no reason for the party to risk the stability and security of the country by forcing voters to choose between Mr. Trump’s deficiencies and those of Mr. Biden. It’s too big a bet to simply hope Americans will overlook or discount Mr. Biden’s age and infirmity that they see with their own eyes.

If the race comes down to a choice between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden, the sitting president would be this board’s unequivocal pick. That is how much of a danger Mr. Trump poses. But given that very danger, the stakes for the country and the uneven abilities of Mr. Biden, the United States needs a stronger opponent to the presumptive Republican nominee. To make a call for a new Democratic nominee this late in a campaign is a decision not taken lightly, but it reflects the scale and seriousness of Mr. Trump’s challenge to the values and institutions of this country and the inadequacy of Mr. Biden to confront him.

Granted, this is the same board that thought it wise to make a rare double-whammy endorsement of Elizabeth Warren and Amy Klobuchar in the 2020 primary, so maybe their political judgment isn't the best.
posted by Rhaomi at 3:11 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

I imagine that the 'one-term' pledge was made assuming that Trump would go away once defeated. We now know he will keep trying until he is physically stopped by something he cannot get past.
posted by zaixfeep at 3:18 PM on June 28 [2 favorites]

We've all gotten so accustomed to horse race journalism and manufacturing consent that seeing a vast swath of mainstream media using their op-ed pages to create campaign drama is utterly unremarkable.
posted by box at 3:19 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

VOTE FOR PEDRO
posted by TedW at 3:22 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

When Woodrow Wilson fell ill, his wife stepped in for him [ok, clandestinely] for the remainder of his term. So take heart; even if Joe becomes frail before 1/20/2029, Jill is smart and capable.
posted by zaixfeep at 3:22 PM on June 28 [6 favorites]

I think Biden should run with that thought. I was going to be a one-term president, but then I saw how I had to stop this monster, the greatest threat to the United States democracy since the Civil War. I'd believe it.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 3:24 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Let me guess -- Bandy X. Lee, amirite?
Nope
posted by mumimor at 3:26 PM on June 28

You don't need the media to manufacture consent determining a shit show was a shit show. Sometimes there just is, you know, consent.
posted by coffeecat at 3:29 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

Nothing about yesterdays debate makes me or anyone i know what to vote for fascists.
Calling Biden's problem a stutter is absurd gas-lighting.
It's not unreasonable to point out that aging is a one-way path toward incapacity and death and that we can't rely on the self-assessment of the person in decline to monitor and react to the decline.
It is not self-sabotage to be talking honestly about how president Hindenburg might not be strong enough and capable enough to fend off the fascist take-over. Because we have to defeat them electorally and resist the 2nd putsch.
We can coulda-woulda-shoulda about primaries and alternatives all we want, but we either successfully pressure Biden into stepping aside to let Harris and a new running-mate become the candidates, or .. uh, we go to battle with the generals we have
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 3:33 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

The post debate polling seems to suggest that American's don't care about Biden's debate performance.

Desperate for a bit of hope, I followed the links to the actual poll, and I'm not sure about how the Washington Post headline - it shows Biden losing 1.5 points, and Trump gaining .4, so a net loss of almost 2 points. And then the margin for error is 2.5 - so potentially a net loss of as much of 6.9 points - which is pretty bad considering Biden was already behind.

Plus, the poll only concerned likely voters who watched the debate. Most voters did not watch the debate though - they will consume it through memes and clips. We'll have to wait a few days for broader polls before we really know the impact of the debate.
posted by coffeecat at 3:38 PM on June 28 [2 favorites]

fluttering hellfire, I was sincere. Peraps I am also ignorant / misguided / naive here? Wouldn't be the first time :-(
posted by zaixfeep at 3:38 PM on June 28

Today's NY Times content includes: To Serve His Country, President Biden Should Leave The Race (the editorial excerpted above); Fearful and Doubting Biden, Democrats Face an Uncertain Path Forward; A Fumbling Performance, and a Panicking Party; Friedman's column, titled "Joe Biden Is a Good Man and a Good President. He Must Bow Out of the Race" (part of a trend summarized by the Daily Beast as "The New York Times Columnists Biden Cares About Tell Him to Go"; & Today in Just Askin': Could Democrats Replace Biden at the Top of the Presidential Ticket?

"Who might be considered to replace him?"

In addition to Ms. Harris, there is Gov. Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan; Gov. Josh Shapiro of Pennsylvania; Gov. Gavin Newsom of California; Gov. J.B. Pritzker of Illinois; and Gov. Andy Beshear of Kentucky. Also worth mentioning are Pete Buttigieg, the secretary of transportation; Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota; and Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey.

Also NYT, from March 3, 2023: J.B. Pritzker Is Democrats’ ‘Break Glass’ Candidate
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:43 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

Reports of Biden's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

People have good and bad days when dealing with cognitive decline. It is unsurprising it was worse in a stressful situation, relatively late. (They call it "sundowning" for a reason.) But I don't think many people are going to be reassured that he is only incoherent when he is stressed or sleepy.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:45 PM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Oh. Oh fuck. This show is thirty years old.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:46 PM on June 28

X (fka Twitter) poster and licensed psychologist '@OurShallowState'published their justification for public diagnosis of Trump when they first started posting. They continue to do it, they admit they're doing it and they feel it is justified/appropriate.

(@OurShallowState was one of the participants in the gestalt dormant X account @DutyToWarn.)
posted by zaixfeep at 3:48 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

we have to defeat them electorally and resist the 2nd putsch

Louder! The average American has no sense of the meaning nor the history of the word “putsch” and yet it is the exact right word for the violent January 6 insurrection that the disgraced felon Trump, and at least one if not two spouses of sitting Supreme Court justices helped organize, support, and carry out.

The nightmare of Project 2025 is something every undecided jagoff needs to know about.
posted by edithkeeler at 4:07 PM on June 28 [15 favorites]

NYT Editorial Board: To Serve His Country, President Biden Should Leave the Race

I have never in my life felt more confident that Biden should both run and be re-elected to the presidency of the United States.
posted by stet at 4:33 PM on June 28 [34 favorites]

There aren't any undecided voters; there are people who vote, and people who do not vote for a variety of reasons. We need to make voter registration easier, and fight voter registration purges, restrictive voting laws, and voter intimidation, to make voting safe and accessible for all participants.

The story of how 2020 changed voting in America has been well told by now: Whether it was 24-hour early voting sites or ramping up mail voting options, virtually every election jurisdiction in the country did something to expand access and make voting easier and safer during the early months of the pandemic. And voters responded. Roughly 70% of the more than 150 million votes cast in that election were cast before Election Day. (NPR)
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:44 PM on June 28 [14 favorites]

I was watching the C-SPAN stream and afterwards they took a few calls, and one was an older lady who said "who doesn't start to feel a little foggy late in the day?" Really gave me critical insight into the average Biden fan.
posted by jy4m at 4:46 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

And could the media redefine undecided voter as "someone who has voted for members of more than one party in the past ten years" and stop pursuing the mythical "I still haven't made up my mind" beast?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 4:51 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

Yeah, I'll admit that seeing the NYT go so unanimous with its recommendation that Biden step down is probably the one thing that makes me doubt its being my gut reaction too. Wild how thoroughly I distrust its opinion section now, Bouie aside.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:43 PM on June 28 [16 favorites]

Meanwhile, Undecided Latino voters now say they support Biden after debate.

This is from a focus group put together by the US Spanish-language TV network Univision.

"One man said he would vote for Biden because "Trump sounded like a crazy liar,""
posted by soundguy99 at 6:06 PM on June 28 [35 favorites]

I finally got someone on Reddit to answer me about the idea that I believe black people would have something to say about the Dems going for Whitmer or Newsom over Harris and he basically said it’s a nonissue not worth thinking about. Personally I don’t believe him.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:59 PM on June 28 [4 favorites]

about the Dems going for Whitmer or Newsom over Harris and he basically said it’s itnonissue not worth thinking about. Personally I don’t believe him.

he's more accurate as in Whitmer plans to run, if she runs in 2028. newsom will most likely be running 2028 also so that's going to be a primary fight. besides, the only other president from Michigan was Ford and he wasn't elected and I don't think Michigan should repeat that, to have a non-elected president. I don't think Biden is going to throw his vice president under the bus but if he decided to retire I would think that the vice president would have the seasoned choice for vice president like retired general.

president reagan, mastermind. SNL
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

Let me guess -- Bandy X. Lee, amirite?
Nope

Well all the same, reintroducing her here.was worth it. As was meeting Jiminy Glick.
posted by y2karl at 7:21 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

I imagine that the 'one-term' pledge was made assuming that Trump would go away once defeated.

I didn’t think it was ever a pledge, just a “signals though his aides” but it sounds like maybe he repudiated that so…
posted by atoxyl at 7:33 PM on June 28

Dear god not Newsom. Or Harris. As a Californian I hated them before their current positions and I still hate them now. Newsom is a worthless made for TV version of a Democrat and Harris did absolute fuckall when she was a senator. If they're put forth both of them would lose easily and it won't just be due to Republicans.
posted by downtohisturtles at 7:36 PM on June 28 [9 favorites]

There's a new Morning Consult post-debate poll of registered voters. On the one hand, a combined 60% of voters say Biden should either "definitely" or "probably" be replaced as nominee -- including a 47% plurality of Democrats. On the other hand, the top-line numbers are basically unchanged from their last poll: 45% Biden, 44% Trump (a slight improvement from the 44-44 tie they found previously). Martin of error is +/-2%
posted by Rhaomi at 7:40 PM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Here are the four post-debate segments from Friday's PBS News Hour (YouTube videos w/transcripts):

Fallout from the debate with Laura Barron-Lopez.

Fact-Checking the debate participants with Samantha Putterman from Politifact.

Interview with Minnesota governor Tim Walz on the Democratic Party's concerns about the debate.

Finally, the regular political wrap-up of the week's events, plus the Supreme Court decisions. Includes David Brooks and Kimberly Atkins Stohr.
posted by JDC8 at 7:48 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

A Complete List of Trump's Debate Lies at a rate of one per minute.
posted by y2karl at 7:57 PM on June 28 [8 favorites]

The only replacement option at this point is VP Kamala Harris. Biden would resign with a syrup filled farewell speech. Harris would become President immediately and get a sympathy bounce and combine that with the power of being the incumbent President to have a the best non-Biden chance to win the election. It is difficult to beat an incumbent President. There isnt time to replace her and put someone else in.
posted by interogative mood at 7:59 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

President Biden looked like somebody with a day pass from a convalescent ward. But he always mixes up some phrases. His actual words were hard to understand (I'm hearing impaired) but I mostly did understand and the thinking was clear and appropriate. I'm really pissed at his campaign, because I suspect he was over-prepared, with canned memorized responses. He's a smart guy who thinks on his feet and doesn't really need canned responses. We all wanted wise-cracking Joe and he was not around.

The orange fascist felon just shouted 18 million Immigrants, Open Borders, Post-birth abortion to every question. He memorized a few specific phrases and repeated them. Lies, of course, there's not even the pretense of facts anymore.

It's way too late to replace President Biden on the Dem ticket. It would be such a disaster. if you're anti-Trump, and no other position is decent, then vote for whoever is on the blue side, because it will be so much better. Not just less worse, but actively better. Kamala Harris has flaws, like any human, and she'd be a good president. Dunno enough about Newsom except his hideous ex, and he'd be okay. Buttegieg, Warren, etc. I will happily and energetically campaign for and vote for Biden or any actual Democrat.
posted by theora55 at 8:01 PM on June 28 [10 favorites]

I don't think there's any chance Biden steps down. No matter how much of a disaster last night was, he's not going to see it. You don't get to be president with a meek self-doubting personality. He's wanted this job his whole life, he believes he's the best candidate, and he's not going to let any failure stand in the way. He'll pull as many levers as he needs to stay, and he owns all of them.

But it was a disaster. If you don't think so, go watch it again. The Republican attack has always been centered on his acumen and acuity. Those attacks are disgusting and unfair, but very consistent from the Hur report to edited videos. Biden confirmed every attack last night. They don't need to edit anything. The edited and fake videos in the coming months will hit much harder because Biden was so obviously incapable last night. A spirited rally doesn't do shit. This damage is significant and permanent.

The debate was a high-risk way for Biden to put to rest those concerns, and instead he magnified it greatly. I think Trump went from a coin-flip to odds-on last night.
posted by netowl at 8:06 PM on June 28 [11 favorites]

Weren't we supposed to find out last night which of the Three Spineless Lickspittles was to be Trump's veep candidate? Funny how that worked out.
posted by y2karl at 8:07 PM on June 28 [4 favorites]

ob1quixote: “K.O. signed off with, "Damn you to hell, Jack Tapper.”

The correct name is Jake Tapper. I regret the error.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:09 PM on June 28 [4 favorites]

>Harris did absolute fuckall when she was a senator

She won election to the Senate in 2016, but the Dems were in the minority from 2015 - 2020. Not a whole helluva lot to do.
posted by torokunai at 8:46 PM on June 28 [2 favorites]

Exactly. She didn't do shit. She just ran for president for some reason. Why? And she got selected for VP. Why? Milquetoast California dems are gonna be the destruction of the party. I say that as a Californian dem who's voted for them (and her!) in every election they were a possibility. Both her and Newsom are a joke and if that's what the party thinks is gonna win they are so far off it's ridiculous.
posted by downtohisturtles at 9:07 PM on June 28 [5 favorites]

Added benefit of getting rid of Biden - there’s plenty of us who aren’t going to vote for the old Zionist anyways.
posted by iamck at 9:18 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

If Biden gets re elected, his brain is going to melt even faster and they’ll be four more years of wear and tear on it. There’s absolutely no way he serves a full second term.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:19 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

What if he doesn’t serve the full term?
posted by mazola at 9:26 PM on June 28

Kamala is pres then. I guesss my point is that having Biden step down and Kamala be the nominee is effectively the same as the status quo, because if Biden wins Kamala Harris will be president during his term. And I do think there’s a lot of unintended consequences for not resigning
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:30 PM on June 28 [3 favorites]

“There were two debates last night,” Jonathan M. Katz, The Racket, 29 June 2024

For me, I found myself feeling as if I were watching two separate debates, being held simultaneously in the same CNN studio in Midtown Atlanta. One pitted Donald Trump against reality and a complacent pair of moderators. The other pitted Joe Biden against himself. Everyone lost.

posted by ob1quixote at 9:39 PM on June 28 [7 favorites]

If Biden were to step down before the Democratic National Convention (unlikely, I know) is there any reason to assume Harris would be the default nominee? Is there no precedent for a brokered convention during which the party delegates would come to a consensus on an official nominee? I dunno…that sounds the kind of thing that could actually inject some excitement into this otherwise dead process—but what do I know?
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:11 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Both her and Newsom are a joke and if that's what the party thinks is gonna win they are so far off it's ridiculous.

This is the reason to have an actual vote at a convention, though. You've got delegates from all the states; if a plurality somehow supports Newsom, that's what we get, but somehow I don't see it. Whitmer or Warren feel more likely.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:28 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

I like the candidates that people are proposing, but there is no way changing the candidate would be more beneficial than keeping Biden. It would be chaotic for the electorate and make the next 5-7 months terrible for governance.

Biden is the most progressive president of my lifetime and his administration has accomplished so much given the cards it was dealt. My vote is going to acknowledge tha. Plus, he is the person I want to be appointing judges.
posted by ichomp at 10:41 PM on June 28 [23 favorites]

I think if the polling--internal and external--in a week or two is a disaster, Schumer and various and sundry Dem funding bundlers pull the fire alarm and assemble the legacy pols (both Clintons, an Obama, PeloSchumeFfries) and funding big wigs and hold as many interventions as it takes to get Biden to drop out, as it is still early enough that voters who matter have just started paying attention. That display yesterday was a campaign to give all three branches away, and the broad establishment will have to pay attention to that reality.

I think inertia is still on Biden's side, but if he gets bullied off the ticket I think Pritzker/Booker is the most likely ticket. I don't like that--a billionaire and a liberal I don't much care for--but Pritzker brings the bag with him, and at least Booker has that baby bond idea and charter schools have fallen a little bit out of favor.

Again, I don't love it, but my dream-within-this-dream would be for Bernie and AOC to try to really get the left behind this specific ticket for some meaningful concessions, as a play to make the left a sustained consideration in the Democratic coalition. Again, not a particular fan of Pritzker or billionaires in general, but a self-funding campaign is the only viable path for the left not to get death-knelled out of the party here behind the animosity of establishment electeds and the abusers, war hawks, zionists, and kinder-gentler-anti-trans types among bundlers. (Kinda wild to imagine that in a different corner of the multiverse Harvey Weinstein is like a 10% decision-maker in a post-Biden scenario but hey, it is America and the Democratic Party after all.)

Anyway, having said that, again, the inertia is with Biden but it's an incredibly wreckless path to be on even if he ekes out a win because Donald Trump was lying about his golf handicap all these years or something.
posted by kensington314 at 11:59 PM on June 28 [1 favorite]

Really hope whatever happens next somehow leads to the demise of Newsom's presidential goals, somehow. As a Californian and someone doesn't like vampires and who wants to see Republicans lose elections, in general.
posted by kensington314 at 12:01 AM on June 29 [4 favorites]

At this stage I’m not even thinking about who could win - I’d just like to see someone give Trump a fraction of the argument he deserves, instead of him getting free rides all the time. This is Donald Trump, yet somehow we’ve reached a position where all the discussion is about the other guy being confused and incoherent.
posted by Phanx at 1:30 AM on June 29 [21 favorites]

Suppose Biden steps down or unfortunately perishes in the next ~2 months. I still don’t see how a putative new Dem nominee even properly secures their names on enough state ballots at this point, given the absurd reality of the GOP’s inclination to avenge and obstruct. I can’t be the only one who thinks folks are overlooking the procedural chaos.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:23 AM on June 29 [4 favorites]

The Lincoln Project:
How to turn Biden's bad night into Trump's bad November
tldr: Unclutch Your Pearls
posted by y2karl at 3:16 AM on June 29 [9 favorites]

Rick Wilson's Substack:

The Big Picture
It’s an emergency. Fly the plane.
posted by y2karl at 3:44 AM on June 29 [4 favorites]

“The race is still a choice between America and Trump.” — Rick Wilson. PREACH.

At ~9:25m in that Lincoln Project video, Wilson seems to personally call out some of us up in here. Worth a listen. Thanks y2karl.
posted by edithkeeler at 3:58 AM on June 29 [4 favorites]

If Biden steps down and Harris isn’t the nominee then the dem leadership would pick skipping over the next in line person and default choice for someone else that wasn’t elected on Bidens ticket. If that person isn’t a WOC, that’s a very bad look. It HAS to be Harris or Biden. Harris solves the coordination problem, prevents party infighting, and the public has already decided in 2020 that if Biden croaks, Harris is fit to be pres.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:00 AM on June 29 [2 favorites]

I am totally unsurprised Rick Wilson is aghast at the idea of Biden being replaced by someone to his left.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:15 AM on June 29 [3 favorites]

I think what everyone would like would be if Biden were to step down in favor of a charismatic firebrand who would take America by storm and fill our hearts with enthusiasm and an eager willingness to forge a bold new future. Unfortunately that person does not exist, and if they somehow did come into being I am confident that the democratic party would devote every erg of its resources into destroying them utterly.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:50 AM on June 29 [14 favorites]

Yesterday I finally got the nerve to watch some of the debate--and could hardly help doing so, with so many clips flying around, and I kept waiting for the moments everybody was talking about so I could share in the horror, and... Well? Maybe it's because I have friends who share Biden's every gaffe and stumble, but the debate performance did not seem unusual to me. He always sounds like he's got a mouthful of rocks unless he's shouting a script into a microphone (like in Raleigh), he always has that odd stare where you wish the camera would pan a little bit so you could see whatever he's looking at, he's never in control of his facial expressions the way you'd think a man who has spent his life in front of the public would control them. Stumbling on numbers, trailing off...I mean, this is just who Biden is now, and who he has been for some time. The Biden I saw during the SOTU was not markedly better.

Obviously during a debate you want a better performance than that--but I wasn't surprised by either guy. Trump was incoherent and repetitive, but got his jabs in the way you'd expect, and Biden was incoherent and quiet, occasionally coming through loudly. It didn't seem that bad. I don't think it necessarily gives Trump that much more ammunition--they were already married to the "Biden: Old" strategy, with a backup plan of "Biden + Provigil" if he started doing cartwheels on stage or something. I am not sure the debate itself is as damaging as people say. The discourse around the debate, well, it remains to be seen what kind of impact it has. (If I were Biden, I wouldn't drop out, I'd start talking about how while the President-as-a-person is important, it's the team you bring with you that really matters.)
posted by mittens at 4:50 AM on June 29 [12 favorites]

I'll skip taking my political cues from Republicans (The Lincoln Project).
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:15 AM on June 29 [6 favorites]

ah yes the lincoln project, whose only accomplishment is scamming rich idiots into funding their pac. if i never hear any of their bullshit again it will be too soon
posted by dis_integration at 6:03 AM on June 29 [8 favorites]

I think the very bravest thing the Democratic Party could do right now would be to stop trying to tone-deafly fend off the deep unrest and exasperation of the American public and instead take it in and let it manifest within the party itself. As in, have the damn mess of a debate at the convention, over who other than Biden- who in the next generation - should lead. And/but do it openly, and articulate it as a way to have the very kind of deliberation that the country needs right now. Manifest voters’ feelings through political process, and in that manifestation, show us that the party can lead us through it.

I’m not saying doing this would be feasible, or that it wouldn’t be a shitshow and media disaster, or that the party is capable of pulling such a thing off. But I can say that it would be the honest, open, non-power-clinging thing to do, and because of that, I’d be there for it.
posted by marlys at 6:51 AM on June 29 [7 favorites]

Biden supporters to New York Times: ‘F--- off!’ [NJ.com]: "Biden supporters, who went back through the Times’ archives and — surprise, surprise — couldn’t find a similar editorial calling on Trump, the presumed Republican nominee, to step down after he was found liable for sexual assault and defamation (twice): or found guilty in a civil trial of massive business fraud for a penalty of more than a half-billion dollars; or after he was criminally convicted of 34 counts of fraud and election interference; or when Trump led an insurrection, or when he was changed with squirreling away the country’s top secrets and obstructing an investigation to recover them."
posted by mazola at 7:02 AM on June 29 [39 favorites]

The New York Times and CNN are, and have been, Team Trump for some time now. Finally mainstream folks are beginning to grasp that.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:03 AM on June 29 [11 favorites]

The NYT stuff isn't exactly news, but it really makes me wonder what is wrong with them. Whatever it is, it's been going on for decades. Like they supported the Iraq war. Or maybe the question is how they can still brand themselves as liberal-leaning and truth-based when they are obviously neither of those things.
posted by mumimor at 7:10 AM on June 29 [7 favorites]

I'm sorry, but the idea that the NYTimes is "Team Trump" is QAnon for the #Resistance. Of course they haven't wasted editorial space calling for Trump to step down - they know, rightly, that Trump couldn't care less what the NYTimes has to say about him. Whereas Biden (and/or his people) might actually listen because they respect the NYTimes. The NYTimes is full of highly critical reporting on Trump, the editorial section full of people saying Trump is unfit for office - even the editorial board's statement says in the second sentence, "Donald Trump has proved himself to be a significant jeopardy to that democracy — an erratic and self-interested figure unworthy of the public trust," later followed with "If the race comes down to a choice between Mr. Trump and Mr. Biden, the sitting president would be this board’s unequivocal pick."
posted by coffeecat at 7:14 AM on June 29 [20 favorites]

Or maybe the question is how [The New York Times] can still brand themselves as liberal-leaning and truth-based when they are obviously neither of those things.

Agreed. I mean, look at all the smart people they’ve managed to fool for so long. It’s harder for humans to judge on actions & patterns instead of the words and former reputation.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:20 AM on June 29 [5 favorites]

I don't imagine the NYTimes is team trump. I just ended my subscription of decades, so I know where they are. I do believe they completely misunderstand the concept of "fair and balanced", as do most mainstream media.
Donald Trump is a ridiculous, clownish reality show figure who pretends to be a business man, a politician and a TV-"star", whatever that is. As the main news organisation of New York, the NYTimes should be at the very front of exposing his lies and the whole charade surrounding him. And they should have been doing that for the last 20 + years at least.

Earlier, I mentioned that Tom Friedman is literally always wrong. Consistently wrong. Yet he is a major contributor to the Times. He might have written that editorial. And while I actually appreciate the concept that the Times has conservative contributors so we can see what they think about stuff without having to support conservative media, Friedman is supposed to be a liberal. The whole opinion and editorial side of the NYT is sick.

I could go on, but I need to do some shopping right now.
posted by mumimor at 7:28 AM on June 29 [9 favorites]

From post-Nate Silver 538: Who Won The First Biden-Trump Presidential Debate?

All the data presented here comes from polling done by Ipsos for 538 using Ipsos’s KnowledgePanel, a probability-based online panel that is recruited to be representative of the U.S. population. The same group of respondents was interviewed before and after the presidential debate on June 27, 2024, to track whether and how their answers changed. The first wave of the poll was conducted June 20-25 among a general population sample of adults, with 5,058 respondents who said they were likely to vote in the 2024 general election. For the likely voter subset of respondents, the first wave of the poll had a margin of error of ±1.55 percentage points.

The second wave of the poll was conducted late on the night of June 27 and early in the morning on June 28 among 2,543 of the likely voters who had previously responded to the first wave; it has a margin of error of ±2.1 points. Of those respondents, 1,700 watched all or part of the debate. The subset of debate watchers carries a margin of error of ±2.5 points.

Share of likely voters who are considering voting for each candidate after the debate compared with before it:

Biden = 48.2% drops to 46.7%
Trump = 43.5% rises to 43.9%
Kennedy = 17.3% rises to 18.4%
posted by soundguy99 at 7:33 AM on June 29 [5 favorites]

A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
posted by flabdablet at 7:35 AM on June 29 [5 favorites]

Anyway, I don't quite buy the idea that there isn't enough time - sure, it would have been ideal if he had opted not to do a second term and allowed a robust primary. But as someone mentioned above, the average voter is pretty checked out until the around now-ish. The convention is late August - it would be a lot of work, but potential candidates could do debates, CNN town halls, etc. There could be fairly robust polling in swing states. Would this be perfect? No. But it would be possible to at least let general public opinion inform an open convention. If that general public opinion overwhelmingly supports Harris, great. If not, then I don't think the optics of not giving it to her are as bad as some are making it out to be - Biden wasn't given the presidency after his stint as VP, and his popularity was better then. The optics would be bad if this decision was done in a backroom, but if a case can be reasonably made that the "will of the people" wants someone else, I think most would respect that.

Like kensington314, my dream ticket would be Bernie/AOC, but realistically I think Whitmer/Booker would be a strong ticket. They're both broadly likable people, they are at least somewhat know beyond their home states (a lot of people mentioning Pritzker, but I had honestly never heard of the guy before), they're not old, and they have a good amount of experience. Plus it would be an historic ticket that would generate a degree of excitement.
posted by coffeecat at 7:39 AM on June 29 [2 favorites]

The NYT had an editorial calling for Biden to step down for the good of the country, because of the debate. I don't think the same editorial was written the day after Trump was convicted of 34 felonies. It's not just the editorial board; they recently ran a piece of journalism about Iran's government running on the assumption Trump will be president.

It is both sides of the media business. And it isn't just this paper; we can go back to Moonves' infamous words that condemned America to enrich a few shareholders. But the NYT is, for better or worse, the paper of record and a bellwether for the health of our democracy. And its management and contributors are in the tank for Trump.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:47 AM on June 29 [7 favorites]

If I understand the NYT editorial position correctly, they want Biden to step down not because they want to see Felonious Sexpest get a second term, but because they see Biden's 2024 candidacy as less likely than that of just about any other Democrat to stop that from happening.
posted by flabdablet at 8:07 AM on June 29 [12 favorites]

Media Matters.org: Top newspapers fixate on Biden's age

"Over the past five months, five of the top US newspapers have published nearly 10 times as many articles focused just on Biden's age or mental acuity as focused on just Trump’s"

bar chart covering Jan 15 to June 17 2024

Note the NYT has 25 articles just on Biden, 5 on both, and just TWO (2) on just Trump. The Media Matters study did include editorials & op-eds in its analysis.

Go on, tell me the "paper of record" doesn't have its thumb on the scale in favor of Trump.

(Also, apparently USA Today is the most balanced in coverage? Whodathunk?)
posted by soundguy99 at 8:12 AM on June 29 [13 favorites]

Like kensington314, my dream ticket would be Bernie/AOC, but realistically I think Whitmer/Booker would be a strong ticket.

Thank you for sharing your fan fiction.
posted by y2karl at 8:26 AM on June 29 [11 favorites]

Also it’s been interesting to see Trump saying “black jobs” taking over black social media. I don’t think I’ve seen a single white pundit mention this but black twitter has been talking about it and memeing it for two days.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:47 AM on June 29 [15 favorites]

Like kensington314, my dream ticket would be Bernie/AOC, but realistically I think Whitmer/Booker would be a strong ticket.

Thank you for sharing your fan fiction

I was sharing fanfiction, but not of a Bernie/AOC ticket. I was saying the only conceivable-in-this-universe way for the left not to get iced of out the Democratic Party in whatever comes next would be, ironically, for AOC & Sanders to go all in on getting waffling lefty voters to support a self-funding billionaire ticket like Pritzker/Booker, in exchange for some kind of concession--most likely a domestic care agenda centered around childcare, elder care, etc. would be embraced by both Pritzker and Booker.

I do think Pritzker/Booker is a likely ticket in a scenario where funders are spooked by events and where Biden very evidently doesn't believe in Kamala.

Anyway. I don't like any of it except the dream of the left being considered an ongoing part of the Dem coalition. I was just musing, and as I said I think the most likely thing is Biden trudging, brutally, toward November and whatever comes of that public spectacle.
posted by kensington314 at 9:18 AM on June 29 [2 favorites]

I'm sorry, but the idea that the NYTimes is "Team Trump" is QAnon for the #Resistance. Of course they haven't wasted editorial space calling for Trump to step down - they know, rightly, that Trump couldn't care less what the NYTimes has to say about him.

I don't find this terribly persuasive. The media's willingness to call out political threats shouldn't wax and wane depending on whether they, personally, think the threat in question cares what they say. Voters care. Not all of them, and not necessarily about this specific outlet or that specific article, but the media shapes the public's perception of politics. When the editorial board of arguably the most well-known media outlet in the country calls on Biden to step down because his debate performance was terrible, but doesn't call on Trump to quit politics after literally being convicted of felonies, they are contributing to a broader sense in the public: Trump's criminal behavior doesn't really matter, but Biden's (alleged lack of) mental acuity does.

That sense has been bulwarked by a habit in the media of normalizing Trump's behavior, something that's been ongoing in 2016 and apparently still just won't go away. How many headlines from papers like NYT did we see after the debate that could not, for the life of them, just say Trump lied throughout the debate? They said he used "wild claims" or "exaggerations." A couple went so far as to say "falsehoods." Most of the NYT-level outlets just couldn't say he lied. And certainly they weren't calling on Trump to quit the race after brazenly lying to the American people over and over again. So again, the impression given to the public: Trump lying doesn't matter, Biden looking and sounding old does. The fact that Trump wouldn't give a damn if they called on him to step down over his lies is irrelevant. What matters is what it would signal to voters: Trump's lying isn't normal. Having a credible, even favored-to-win presidential candidate with 34 felony convictions isn't normal. Unless, of course, we accept it as normal-- and when outlets like the NYT put out editorials like this while saying little about Trump's behavior, that's exactly what they're nudging the public towards doing: accepting all this as normal.

Again, it's like nothing was learned from 2016 when none of the media outlets were willing to call out the historically absurd, poisonous, and simply weird nature of Trump's candidacy until, oh whoops, look at that, now he's president. And crap like this editorial only brings us closer to the same thing happening this year.
posted by Method Man at 9:20 AM on June 29 [13 favorites]

JFC the echo chamber about how the editorial side of the NYT is pro trump in here is deranged. Learn to read.

Donald Trump, Felon
. The jury’s decision, and the facts presented at the trial, offer yet another reminder — perhaps the starkest to date — of the many reasons Donald Trump is unfit for office.


I can't even be bothered to make clickable links for the number of editorial board slammings of trump:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/17/opinion/donald-trump-trial.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/06/opinion/trump-republican-party.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/10/opinion/editorials/trump-immunity-supreme-court.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/06/opinion/trump-2024-campaign-warning.html

they do one every month!
posted by lalochezia at 9:24 AM on June 29 [10 favorites]

Thank you for sharing your fan fiction.

It's a more realistic scenario than a Biden/Harris victory.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:33 AM on June 29 [4 favorites]

‘Hello from my Black job’: Dems strike back after Trump debate remark

[Virginia state Del. Joshua G. Cole] said Trump was “race-baiting and fearmongering.”

“I think he was also trying to indicate that Black jobs are jobs that no one wants to do,” Cole said.

Florida state Rep. Ashley Gantt shared several posts from people mocking Trump’s comment and asking “Black jobs?” She said he clearly meant “subservient jobs.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:37 AM on June 29 [5 favorites]

When the editorial board of arguably the most well-known media outlet in the country calls on Biden to step down because his debate performance was terrible, but doesn't call on Trump to quit politics after literally being convicted of felonies, they are contributing to a broader sense in the public [Emphasis added]

First of all, it's good to remember that only 20% of Americans consume news daily - the percentage that read the NYTimes daily is obviously going to be significantly lower than that - the NYTimes has sway with news junkies, but that's about it. I know I often have to remind myself that not everyone spends as much time on the NYTimes website as I do. Their influence is real, but it's among elites, not the general public.

It's not just the editorial board; they recently ran a piece of journalism about Iran's government running on the assumption Trump will be president.

How exactly is that evidence they are "in the tank for Trump"? It's news, and their job is to report on the news. Iran is a significant player on the world stage, particularly at the moment. Are you suggesting that their reporters are making it up?

The media's willingness to call out political threats shouldn't wax and wane depending on whether they, personally, think the threat in question cares what they say.

I agree! lalochezia beat me to it, but yeah, the NYTimes has extensive reporting on how Trump is a political threat. They just aren't bothering to write him and his team a personal direct message.

They said he used "wild claims" or "exaggerations." A couple went so far as to say "falsehoods." Most of the NYT-level outlets just couldn't say he lied.

Falsehood = a lie. And I listened to several NYTimes and NPR podcasts after the debate, and they all mentioned Trump lied a lot.

So again, the impression given to the public: Trump lying doesn't matter, Biden looking and sounding old does.

Again, the NYTimes and other such outlets have reported extensively on how Trump is breaking norms all the time of what we expect a president to be - that he's not normal. Meanwhile, for the latter bit, voters have been expressing for over a year now that they think Biden is too old. At least before Oct 7, for whatever it's worth, I held a generally favorable opinion of Biden and I thought he was too old. This isn't a media whipped up narrative - I really don't get why people are so unable to believe that the average American would think an 81 year old, who in recent years has frequently appeared confused and frail in public, is too old to have one of the hardest (physically and intellectually) jobs in the world.
posted by coffeecat at 9:41 AM on June 29 [4 favorites]

he NYT stuff isn't exactly news, but it really makes me wonder what is wrong with them. Whatever it is, it's been going on for decades. Like they supported the Iraq war. Or maybe the question is how they can still brand themselves as liberal-leaning and truth-based when they are obviously neither of those things.

Joe Biden supported the Iraq War.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:42 AM on June 29 [11 favorites]

And I suppose why these "NYTimes is gunning for Trump" conspiracy theories really bum me out, is how it's just indicative at a general societal decay in the ability to listen to another opinion. I believe people left-of-center who are supporting Biden right now genuinely believe that he's the best chance to beat Trump. I also believe that people left-of-center suggesting he step down also genuinely believe that that's the best way to beat Trump. We all share the main goal - just because we don't agree on the same strategy doesn't mean there is a conspiracy afoot.
posted by coffeecat at 9:46 AM on June 29 [6 favorites]

And not even a little bit, Biden was a huge gung ho supporter of the war, and as a senior powerful senate dem, legitimized it. The guy really really loves bombing Arabs.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:10 AM on June 29 [9 favorites]

Falsehood = a lie

This isn't quite right. They say falsehood for liability reasons, because "lie" means an intentional falsehood, and in a court of law, if Trump sued them, they could demonstrate that what Trump said was false, but it would be harder to prove he knew it was false. It's like how whenever anybody is said to have done something bad, they say they "allegedly" did it. It's a "but don't sue us" word.

It still creates a different impression than it would if they just said he lied, which is why this frustrates so many people.

For clarity, I'm not addressing the NYT stuff directly - I don't tend to read it so I don't have much of an opinion there. I'm speaking generally about the media.
posted by joannemerriam at 10:11 AM on June 29 [8 favorites]

I guess the NYT is pushing a difficult conversation, and that's good I guess (that's not sarcasm) but I find myself leaning towards the stance of David Frum (of all people):

"Ferocious controversy will probably now erupt over Biden’s leadership of the Democratic Party. We’ll hear all kinds of plans to swap him out somehow. Maybe those plans will be workable, but probably not. Through the uproar, it will be important to keep in mind that this election is not about Biden. It’s about you and your commitments and your values. Biden is just the instrument. Like any instrument, he’s imperfect. But better an imperfect instrument than a would-be autocrat who demands a cult of personality.

…

Against the threat of Trump, Americans must save themselves. The job of doing so cannot be delegated to some charismatic savior—and anyway, that charismatic savior has yet to present himself or herself. Television always wants to reduce active human beings to passive viewers. The presidential-debate format has especially served this purpose: “Do I prefer the candidate in the red tie or the blue one?”

This most recent debate has taught the danger of spectatorship. The job of saving democracy from Trump will be done not by an old man on a gaudy stage, but by those who care that their democracy be saved. Biden’s evident frailties have aggravated that job and made it more difficult, but they have also clarified whose job it is. Not his. Yours."

posted by mazola at 10:12 AM on June 29 [16 favorites]

First of all, it's good to remember that only 20% of Americans consume news daily - the percentage that read the NYTimes daily is obviously going to be significantly lower than that - the NYTimes has sway with news junkies, but that's about it. I know I often have to remind myself that not everyone spends as much time on the NYTimes website as I do. Their influence is real, but it's among elites, not the general public.

That's true, but I don't think the problem is that the average American reads these articles and forms their opinions based on them (although many of them certainly do check the headlines). The problem is that they contribute to a broader media ecosystem with a habit of over-focusing on concerns about Biden's age and under-emphasizing the insane nature of Trump's candidacy, the criminality, the lying. And that does, I think, filter down to the average voter.

I agree! lalochezia beat me to it, but yeah, the NYTimes has extensive reporting on how Trump is a political threat. They just aren't bothering to write him and his team a personal direct message.

I check the NYT fairly often-- it's not really where I get my news, but just to keep an eye on what the paper of record is focusing on and emphasizing. Yes, they do report on Trump and his criminal nature and his lying, but what I've noticed time and time again is that headlines about Biden's negative attributes-- his age, his alleged mental decline-- are elevated far above those about Trump's negative headlines. Soundguy99 linked to some articles examining this very habit; others are out there as well. And frankly, I think the NYT has drawn an implicit equivalency between their negative attributes that I disagree with strongly. I don't think "old, not as mentally acute" is as bad as "convicted felon, rapist, and pathological liar", but I think that's the dichotomy that has essentially been injected into the narrative around this election.

Falsehood = a lie. And I listened to several NYTimes and NPR podcasts after the debate, and they all mentioned Trump lied a lot.

"Falsehood" is a much softer word than "lie." Saying "Trump engaged in falsehoods" is inherently a softer framing than simply saying "Trump lied." Ten times more so for the ones, including the NYT, who ran with nonsense like "Trump used wild claims and exaggerations."

Meanwhile, for the latter bit, voters have been expressing for over a year now that they think Biden is too old. At least before Oct 7, for whatever it's worth, I held a generally favorable opinion of Biden and I thought he was too old. This isn't a media whipped up narrative - I really don't get why people are so unable to believe that the average American would think an 81 year old, who in recent years has frequently appeared confused and frail in public, is too old to have one of the hardest (physically and intellectually) jobs in the world.

I mean, he is old. I'm not gonna tell you he's not. And absolutely, concerns about his age aren't solely the product of media frenzy, and they're appropriate concerns to have. But I'm convinced that outlets like the NYT zeroed in on concerns about Biden's age to an inappropriate and frankly irresponsible degree that did feed back into and exacerbate those concerns and undersell the destructive nature of Trump's candidacy.

I don't think there's a conspiracy and I don't think the NYT is single-handedly responsible for voters thinking Biden is old. But I do think they have a profoundly skewed understanding of what it means to be fair and balanced, and that skewed understanding is tremendously damaging to a democracy that is already imperfect, failing to adequately serve vast swathes of the population, and direly in need of support and reform.
posted by Method Man at 10:13 AM on June 29 [15 favorites]

Sometimes I check in on the NYT and am reminded of the movie 'Mars Attacks' in which the comical outer space monsters attack earth while shouting "We come in Peace!" and "We mean you no harm!" while blasting away with disintegrator rays.

Like, at a certain point one might start to get the impression that they're trying to destroy the earth intentionally ya know?
posted by stet at 10:35 AM on June 29 [10 favorites]

Trump isn't an existential threat to the writers and editors of the NYT. They are wealthy and live in Democratic strongholds. What is important to the people of the class who actually own newspapers has nothing to do with what is important to the poor and vulnerable. Expecting an essentially capitalist enterprise to reflect humanitarian values is a lost cause.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:45 AM on June 29 [12 favorites]

What is important to the people of the class who actually own newspapers

Metafilter readers are probably very familiar with the quote from Les Moonves about the Trump campaign, "It may not be good for America, but it's damn good for CBS." The NYT is no different.
posted by gimonca at 10:52 AM on June 29 [11 favorites]

The thing about Trump also being old is that it's not an argument that's going to go anywhere.

It's factually true. Trump is a morbidly obese old man, he's only four years younger than Biden. But that doesn't matter for two big reasons.

The first is, if you're explaining you're losing. And if the only response you have to a criticism of your candidate is "the other guy is too" then you're not just explaining you're making excuses. It comes off as whiny and no one listens.

Which brings us to the second: there's limited space in people's minds for things and it seems that "old candidate" is one that gets the definite article because most of America can't seem to make mental space for two old candidates. There's space for one, Biden filled that space, and Trump's age becomes a non-issue even though it clearly SHOULD be an issue.

It's not right, it's not reasonable, but Biden is stuck being "the old candidate" and despite Trump's age he's never going to be "the old candidate" in the mind of most of America. Which means Biden has to be "the old but spry" candidate. The "old but sharp" candidate. And he's not doing very well trying to acquire those modifiers.
posted by sotonohito at 11:54 AM on June 29 [6 favorites]

How about the "old but ethical" candidate? "old but non-criminal"? "old, non-authoritarian"… ?
posted by mazola at 12:23 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

This has me revisiting the question of why they pushed to have this debate so early. Imagine if this had been in September.

That's when the second debate is scheduled for: September 10.
posted by trig at 1:05 PM on June 29 [1 favorite]

Vote for the old guy, not the fascist crook.
posted by mumimor at 1:16 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

Man the NYT is really all, "Yes he has dementia and was convicted of 34 felonies but he's the voice of a movement and must be allowed to run" BUT ALSO "That guy fucking stutters and the Dems must replace him."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:36 PM on June 29 [13 favorites]

8 years ago cheeto supporters were simpering that they forgave him his flaws.....lately I've been seeing ads for a t-shirt company selling ones with graphics blatantly describing support of the convicted felon.
posted by brujita at 2:00 PM on June 29 [3 favorites]

Suppose Biden steps down or unfortunately perishes in the next ~2 months. I still don’t see how a putative new Dem nominee even properly secures their names on enough state ballots at this point, given the absurd reality of the GOP’s inclination to avenge and obstruct.

Regardless of Republican obstructionism, ballots with presidential candidates on them are never ever considered finalized before the respective party conventions. It doesn't happen very often, but there have been contested conventions. If he steps down before the convention, I don't think there's any issue getting a replacement on the ballot for November except possibly in a couple of states that, frankly, don't matter.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:26 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

How about the "old but ethical" candidate? "old but non-criminal"? "old, non-authoritarian"… ?

I think you could quibble.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:28 PM on June 29 [5 favorites]

Two Joe Bidens: The night America saw the other one (Axios)

The money quote here, to my mind, is this bit:

• The time of day is important as to which of the two Bidens will appear.
• From 10am to 4pm, Biden is dependably engaged — and many of his public events in front of cameras are held within those hours.
• Outside of that time range or while traveling abroad, Biden is more likely to have verbal miscues and become fatigued, aides told Axios.

This is a description of sundowning.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:30 PM on June 29 [11 favorites]

It's frustrating how many pro-Biden people are reacting to criticism of him as if the critics are saying they think Biden's worse than Trump.

Virtually everyone in this discussion agrees that Trump is catastrophically worse than Biden in every way. The criticism of Biden, and the people hoping that he'll step down, are doing so because they think Biden is uniquely unqualified, not to be President, but to be the guy running against Trump for President. (Many people also don't think he's qualified to be President, but—here, at least, and even for the most part in the NYT—nobody thinks that Trump is more qualified.)

Some people still think that Biden is uniquely positioned to be an effective anti-Trump deterrent. Others think that, because Biden is the standing president or because we've passed primary season, it would be far more disastrous to replace Biden than to let him run. I respect those opinions, even if I don't share the former and don't know if I agree with the latter. But I'd ask that people who disagree with the folks hoping that Biden will stand down at least engage with that opinion in good faith, rather than presuming that anyone saying "Biden's got to go" is saying it because they'd like a second Trump term. That feels like an extremely bad-faith reading, and one that flies in the face of any attempt to have a genuine discussion rather than a flamewar.

I'm not sure that anybody really knows the "right" course of action moving forward. The political analysts whose perspectives I find the most valuable are all pretty staunchly in favor of Joe standing down, which is unsurprising because they were making that argument a year ago too; that said, I find myself raising an eyebrow as much at their certainty as at the people who just-as-staunchly insist that Biden is the only man for the moment. "This is a moment of terrifying uncertainty" is about the only constant I'm seeing here. While I understand the temptation to stave off that uncertainty by digging our heels in and insisting that our horse is the only safe bet in the race, I'm not sure it's helping anything right now. And I think we can disagree with one another without jumping to the conclusion that the people we're disagreeing with are enemies of the state.

Anyway, now that I'm letting the shock of the debate itself subside, my takeaway is that this was an awful day for both Trump and Biden. Trump is still so despised that I could see Biden winning the race even if he continues to have awful moments like this one (though I'd hate to have to bet on that outcome). In a darkly funny way, it's very amusing that polls are showing very little change in people's opinions—both because Trump is too hated for people to let Biden's shit performance sway them, and because faith in Biden is so unprecedentedly low that his bombing barely matters. If Biden had been halfway decent, I think this election would be safely his; it's unpleasant and disturbing that he couldn't even swing that. But he hasn't lost, and if he becomes the nominee after all, I'll try not to wonder too hard about where we'd be if we got a chance to go with anybody else instead.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 2:46 PM on June 29 [23 favorites]

The time of day is important as to which of the two Bidens will appear.

...The second debate is scheduled for: September 10 at 9pm.
posted by trig at 2:52 PM on June 29 [7 favorites]

We didn't want to expand the courts, we imposed the filibuster on ourselves, ceded power to a parliamentarian to restrict what we could pass in congress, we let republican senators blue-slip court appointments, we didn't defend voting rights and we slow walked the prosecutions from the insurrection, we told the protesters to be patient and trust the process, we didn't do a recess appointment of Garland spot, etc etc. We are so busy trying to save the peace treaty that we can't allow ourselves to fight the war. A bunch of proceduralists saying it's too late to have a winning candidate before the convention has even been held? Well, f em. They claimed that all the smart, talented, young charismatic candidates in 2020 had issues with their 'elect-ability'. Biden isn't electable, half the time he wasn't intelligible. Let the man die in peace.

Biden has to go, sure. But relying on institutions and norms and rules that only one side follows also has to go.
If you want your rights to your body back, you have to fight. If you want a livable planet, you have to fight. If you don't want to end up in the camps, you have to fight. Business as usual is driving us off a cliff, and holding us all hostage over nostalgia for a time when you didn't feel so uncomfortable with our choices is not the answer. We are not a necrocracy, and we are not the cool-aid drinking party. Stop pretending Biden's probablem was a cold or a stutter and start helping fight back the fascists.
posted by No Climate - No Food, No Food - No Future. at 3:14 PM on June 29 [17 favorites]

As for golf, Trump is such a notorious golf cheat that there must be enough footage to make a week long streaming and cable TV commercial.
posted by y2karl at 3:21 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

ballots with presidential candidates on them are never ever considered finalized before the respective party conventions. I

I don't think this is true. Aren't Ohio and another state dealing with this now?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 3:21 PM on June 29 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I'll admit that seeing the NYT go so unanimous with its recommendation that Biden step down is probably the one thing that makes me doubt its being my gut reaction too. Wild how thoroughly I distrust its opinion section now, Bouie aside.

Seriously. The top NYT headline yesterday may as well have been "Every Single Extremely Online Liberal Boomer We Know Agrees: Biden Must Step Aside".

Their pearl-clutching actually made me laugh -- and feel all the more supportive of Biden.

Liberal elites have never been all that fond of Biden. They've always viewed him as something of a buffoon, a boring outsider lacking an Ivy League education, a guy who jumped the line to get into the Senate at an extremely young age, and someone with a fondness for repeating boring, long-winded, cornball stories.

I think I absorbed a lot of this contempt unthinkingly. I shared it, up until the 2020 primaries.

I was been as surprised as anyone to see that this supposed buffoon had a surprising sensitivity to the actual core electoral bloc of the Democratic party (working-class multiracial moderates, rather than the educated white lefties who presume themselves to be the party's center of gravity).

Then he beat Trump, navigated the insurrection, and pulled the country out of the pandemic and the economic disaster left to him by Trump. On top of that, he used his surprising political acumen to shepherd huge, enormously consequential legislation thru the most razor-thin congressional majority possible... and seated the most diverse, progressive set of federal appointees in history.

But he also shattered the Washington elite's impossible dream of victory in Afghanistan. They hated them for it. They turned fully against him at that point, and have never really supported him again.

They deemed him a deadweight who would tank the Democrats' chances during the midterms. The fact that two years of their confident predictions of disaster didn't pan out in 2022 has not deterred them from predicting disaster again this year. Add garden-variety ageism and ableism to the mix, and you get the kind of front page that the NYT ran yesterday.

But to quote FDR, I suspect Biden welcomes their hatred. He's always succeeded in spite of them.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:23 PM on June 29 [18 favorites]

And not even a little bit, Biden was a huge gung ho supporter of the war, and as a senior powerful senate dem, legitimized it. The guy really really loves bombing Arabs.

Biden has always tended to shift with the mainstream of his party. Alas, the party (like the U.S. public) largely supported the Iraq war at the beginning.

But your second sentence suggests you're really talking about the Joe Biden in your head, not the guy who's actually president right now.

Here's a fact check:

Biden Rules Tighten Limits on Drone Strikes

US military strikes fell 54% in Biden's first year compared to Trump's last, monitoring group says

U.S. Drone Strikes Plunge Under Biden

Biden nearly ended the drone war, and nobody noticed

Yes, there have been various U.S. military actions since Biden ended the war in Afghanistan, but in general, the level of U.S. military involvement in the Middle East is as low as it's been at any point since 9/11.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 4:40 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

ah but you see he’s outsourcing the indiscriminate murder of arabs to the IDF now
posted by dis_integration at 4:45 PM on June 29 [11 favorites]

Sure, they are too busy being the arms dealer to genocide.
posted by Mitheral at 4:45 PM on June 29 [9 favorites]

adrienneleigh: This is a description of sundowning.

Here's what I'm wondering about:
Does sundowning generally revert itself later in the evening? The way Biden apparently did a lot better at the rally that happened an hour after the "debate"?
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:51 PM on June 29 [6 favorites]

Reading from a teleprompter is much less demanding cognitively than recalling facts from long term memory then storing those facts in working memory and then ordering those facts into a linear sequence based on meaning. One task requires rote decoding, which involves skills drilled to automaticity in grade school; the other involves faculties related to constructs like working memory and fluid intelligence (which are correlated with activity in different regions of the brain than those involved with.decoding and speech).

Of course, Biden also always had a vocal disfluency (stutter) that he rarely talks about, which doesn’t help.
posted by eagles123 at 5:03 PM on June 29 [3 favorites]

People need to learn what the phrase "pearl clutching" means. Also:

Biden has always tended to shift with the mainstream of his party.

"You online extremists don't understand! He's not a warmonger, or a racist! He simply has no principles!"

Except, of course, for his willingness to back Netanyahu's genocide. So one principle, I guess.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:21 PM on June 29 [9 favorites]

To serve his country, Donald Trump should leave the race [The Philadelphia Inquirer | Editorial]. Biden had a horrible night Thursday. But the debate about the debate is misplaced. The only person who should withdraw from the race is Trump.

Biden must show that he is up to the job. This much is clear: He has a substantive record of real accomplishments, fighting the pandemic, combating climate change, investing in infrastructure, and supporting working families and the most vulnerable.

Biden has surrounded himself with experienced people who take public service seriously. He has passed major bipartisan legislation despite a dysfunctional Republican House majority.

Biden believes in the best of America. He has rebuilt relationships with allies around the world and stood up to foes like Russia and China.

There was only one person at the debate who does not deserve to be running for president. The sooner Trump exits the stage, the better off the country will be.

posted by mazola at 5:31 PM on June 29 [24 favorites]

Cheeto was still in office on J6.

Is it too late for Biden to expand SCOTUS?
posted by brujita at 5:38 PM on June 29 [3 favorites]

But your second sentence suggests you're really talking about the Joe Biden in your head, not the guy who's actually president right now

Given that there’s an ongoing genocide that is directly the result of biden’s actions, this is just grotesque. When people talk about Palestinian lives not mattering, this is what they mean. It’s an aside, and irrelevant detail that one can ignore
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:44 PM on June 29 [11 favorites]

Is it too late for Biden to expand SCOTUS?

Too late? It's impossible for Joe Biden to expand the Court.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:47 PM on June 29 [2 favorites]

I don't know about that. Remember the Red Wave of 2022? That turned out to be a Blue Blowout. The same in November is not out of the question.
posted by y2karl at 6:30 PM on June 29 [6 favorites]

The President alone can not expand the Court. Am I missing something here?
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 6:45 PM on June 29 [5 favorites]

I don't know about that. Remember the Red Wave of 2022? That turned out to be a Blue Blowout. The same in November is not out of the question.

Say it louder, for those in the back.

Calling this election now is utter folly.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:51 PM on June 29 [9 favorites]

Biden has always tended to shift with the mainstream of his party.

"You online extremists don't understand! He's not a warmonger, or a racist! He simply has no principles!"

So... you prefer politicians who don't listen to their electorate? *shrug* OK, then.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:54 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

So... you prefer politicians who don't listen to their electorate? *shrug* OK, then.

When the electirate is telling them to oppose desegregation and to support wars of aggression you are god damned right I want them not to listen!
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:56 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

Given that there’s an ongoing genocide that is directly the result of biden’s actions

American Main Character Syndrome strikes again.

Yes, of course, nothing happening in Gaza has anything to do with actions taken by Israel or Hamas. It's all Biden's doing.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 6:56 PM on June 29 [18 favorites]

> So... you prefer politicians who don't listen to their electorate? *shrug* OK, then.

honestly yes. politicians should lead from their principles, and if those principles don’t align with the electorate then they just don’t get the votes, instead, the candidates who align best with the electorate get the votes. that would be the honest way to do politics
posted by dis_integration at 6:57 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

Yes, of course, nothing happening in Gaza has anything to do with actions taken by Israel or Hamas. It's all Biden's doing.

Don't be deliberately obtuse. Supplying weapons to a genocidal regime is not a neutral action. Neither is providing diplomatic cover for mass murder and thwarting international action in the UN.

This is the most important election of the last century! That's why we can't possibly replace the senile genocide supporter who polls worse than Donald Trump!
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:59 PM on June 29 [7 favorites]

“King Leer,” John Ganz, Unpopular Front, 28 June 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:08 PM on June 29 [7 favorites]

So... you prefer politicians who don't listen to their electorate? *shrug* OK, then.

When the electirate is telling them to oppose desegregation and to support wars of aggression you are god damned right I want them not to listen!

I think what you're saying is you want politicians that listen to and agree with you.

OK, fine. Everyone wants that, in some sense.

What I've been trying to point out is that, throughout his career, Biden generally has tried to do what the majority of Dem voters want at the time.

You can view that as unprincipled pandering, or as a guy whose personal views have gradually evolved, or as representative democracy working exactly the way it's supposed to.

What you can't do -- not with any plausibility, anyway -- is try to explain Biden's history of thoroughly mainstream Democratic politics as evidence of deep-seated psychopathic malevolence, racism, bloodlust, etc.

I mean, you can! It's wildly off target, but you can do it. There are a vocal few Biden haters here who really seem to view him that way.

You'd be better off applying Occam's razor, tho.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:18 PM on June 29 [9 favorites]

I think what you're saying is you want politicians that listen to and agree with you.

You're right.

I made the assumption that my beliefs about killing innocent people and reinforcing America's racial hierarchy being objectively bad were based on some moral principles, instead of just being personal idiosyncracies.

I feel so foolish.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:22 PM on June 29 [10 favorites]

If you want to understand the heart and soul of the NY Times, read their financial pages. They are deeply connected to corporate success, they have no criticism of Peak Capitalism, they approve of whatever the wealthy like.

They have banging the drum about Biden's age, suckered by the Right's excellent PR manipulation. They rarely challenge the orange fascist's lies, corruption, age, or the way he talks gibberish so much, seems in poor health. The call for Biden to step aside did not come with any ideas about how to move forward, and without a plan for what to do, it's just sabotage.

I had a digital subscription, just canceled. I know it's a drop in the ocean, but fuck that crap.

Want younger, better, more progressive candidates? Vote for promising candidates, donate, volunteer. The Right looks at the Dems in congress, governors, leaders, and starts spreading bad press, poisoning the well. We won't have perfect candidates. Try supporting the Pretty Good Candidates. I know. as if.
posted by theora55 at 7:41 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

I feel so foolish.

The vast majority of Americans do not care about what is going on in Gaza. In a way you may consider sick, the politicians are listening to the electorate.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:08 PM on June 29 [2 favorites]

Does sundowning generally revert itself later in the evening? The way Biden apparently did a lot better at the rally that happened an hour after the "debate"?

Too-Ticky: no, but as eagles123 pointed out, reading off a teleprompter is a lot less cognitively demanding.

(Trump is also visibly sundowning during many of his evening appearances, lest anyone think i'm picking on Biden specifically. But i strongly suspect from the short clips i saw (and the known history) that he was, er, chemically enhanced during Thursday's debate.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:17 PM on June 29 [1 favorite]

The vast majority of Americans do not care about what is going on in Gaza. In a way you may consider sick, the politicians are listening to the electorate.

That being the case, why is it that the left is supposed to hold our noses and vote for a senile genocidaire in order to save America from itself? As far as i'm concerned, anyone who "doesn't care" what's happening to Palestinians deserves whatever happens to America.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:18 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

The vast majority of Americans do not care about what is going on in Gaza. In a way you may consider sick, the politicians are listening to the electorate.

Yeah that’s why they’re scrambling to ban tik tok
posted by iamck at 8:39 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

As far as i'm concerned, anyone who "doesn't care" what's happening to Palestinians deserves whatever happens to America.

You’ve actually summed up why a lot of people don’t trust liberals and leftists. Why do I deserve to live in a possible fascist state of the US because of what’s happening in entirely different countries? Feel free to look at my posting history, I’d probably disintegrate if I took more on, so I deserve it? Please tell me why.
posted by girlmightlive at 8:41 PM on June 29 [10 favorites]

Too-Ticky: no, but as eagles123 pointed out, reading off a teleprompter is a lot less cognitively demanding.

I think they were referring to this video, Biden visiting the debate watch 'after party' an hour or so after the debate. Watch for yourself. Doesn't seem to be teleprompter and it's (even) later into that same evening. That's more like the Biden I'm familiar with in recent appearances. *shrug*
posted by mazola at 8:50 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

Oh, i have no idea then. Aging is complicated and so is cognitive decline, though. The reporting from Axios is definitely very concerning.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:10 PM on June 29

Biden has always been a bad speaker, prone to getting things backward, producing malapropisms, etc. But what looks impulsive and cocky on a 30-year-old, and eccentric on a guy in his 50s and 60s, looks like dementia on someone who's 81. I'm not sure, honestly, whether Biden is showing signs of advanced age; I think this is just him. How often did you see him in interviews when Obama was president?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:19 PM on June 29 [9 favorites]

Why do I deserve to live in a possible fascist state of the US because of what’s happening in entirely different countries?

*Nobody* deserves to live under fascism. But framing it as "what's happening in entirely different countries" as if America doesn't play a very very significant role in what's happening is probably not going to make anyone more sympathetic.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:21 PM on June 29 [7 favorites]

It’s not about making people sympathetic, it’s about that some of us are still dealing with the racism and sexism and horribleness of the country we live in.
posted by girlmightlive at 9:51 PM on June 29 [4 favorites]

Right, and the way my brain works, I'd be connecting the internal racism to the external - Arab-Americans are never going to be treated equally while the United States is engaged in racist violence and ethnic cleansing against Arabic-speaking populations overseas.

So, in other words, you can't just wash your hands and say "I'm focused on what happens inside our borders, I shouldn't be expected to care what we do outside of them".
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:58 PM on June 29 [8 favorites]

some of us are still dealing with the racism and sexism and horribleness of the country we live in

The US giving an ethnofascist murder colony tens of billions of dollars to commit genocide is certainly related to those things.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:11 PM on June 29 [9 favorites]

As far as i'm concerned, anyone who "doesn't care" what's happening to Palestinians deserves whatever happens to America.

By that logic no one who isn't ethically sound across the entire board is worth saving.

There are people who say Palestinians deserve whatever happens to them because they themselves have supported and even cheered on plenty of violence and massacres. Some people argue against that by saying that the violence and massacres they supported were legitimate. I think the much better argument is that the lives and human rights of human beings matter even if some of their beliefs and even actions are odious, and even if they lack any empathy for the people or causes I care about. Human rights can't depend on whether the people in question are innocent angels and perfect victims. I find that argument hard to *feel* sometimes, but I think it's basically a moral imperative to commit to it.

It's not like I don't feel "to hell with them all" on a frequent basis, for all kinds of "them", but I also believe that's a feeling it's really important to reject. Again and again.

On the pragmatic level whatever happens to America affects the whole world, and the planet. Not to mention all the Americans who do care.
posted by trig at 10:16 PM on June 29 [10 favorites]

I think they were referring to this video, Biden visiting the debate watch 'after party' an hour or so after the debate. Watch for yourself. Doesn't seem to be teleprompter and it's (even) later into that same evening. That's more like the Biden I'm familiar with in recent appearances. *shrug*

posted by mazola at 8:50 PM

I appreciate this, mazola. Holy cow…same night as the debate, an hour later, and Biden is energized.

So much for the “sundowning” trope.
posted by darkstar at 12:46 AM on June 30 [6 favorites]

What is happening in Gaza is beyond atrocious. And it was completely foreseeable. Anyone with any knowledge about the region knew that the October 7th terror attacks would lead to unproportional revenge and a massacre on civilians. Joe Biden knew it and tried to remind Netanyahu of the failure of the US attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq. But Netanyahu doesn't see those wars as failures. Hamas knew it and bet on it as a means to change the perception of Israel as a peaceful democracy.

I wish I had the knowledge and the power to end it. But I don't. And neither does Joe Biden. Or anyone outside of Israel/Palestine. There are probably very few people inside Israel/Palestine who could end it, and at this moment they don't have the backing of their peoples, though things are changing right now in Israel as we debate the US presidential election.

What we know is that the situation in Gaza is probably a direct result of the so-called Abraham Accords, a deal brokered by Donald Trump's son-in-law. For reasons that need their own post, the US state department and most of the so-called international community thinks this is a good deal, the one thing the Trump administration did well. This is obviously idiocy, but again, completely out of Biden's control. It's nice to imagine he could just call Netanyahu and make him stop, but it isn't how stuff works. It's reasonable to think the US and the rest of the world should stop sending weapons to the IDF and I agree, but I also understand why they do it. And regardless of what Biden thinks, a majority in congress across parties supports Israel.

But let's get back to the Abraham Accords, the work of Jared Kuschner with his murderous friends. This is the Trump administration policy on the Middle East. If you vote for Trump, or stay home because you imagine the genocide in Gaza can be blamed on Joe Biden, you will get more of Trump's ME policy, rewarding genocide, authoritarianism and corruption. The Biden administration supports the UN and aid to the Palestinians and has actively built a bridge/harbor to bring aid to Gaza.
Trump wants to end foreign aid and end the UN.
What a lot of people don't get is that the rich Arab nations in the Gulf don't give a shit about the Palestinians. It's telling that Hamas is supported by Syria and Iran, not by Arab nations. Trump is closely aligned with the KSA and other Gulf nations, and he broke the Iran nuclear weapons deal, further isolating that country.
If Trump gets back into power, I fear it will mean the end of Palestine.

Biden won't be the person who negotiates the creation of a Palestinian state. I do think that is an age thing. But I also think it is impossible right now, regardless of who are the world leaders.

The situation in Gaza should not be the single issue that ends American democracy, not least because ending American democracy by electing Donald Trump would surely also end all hope for Palestine.
posted by mumimor at 1:38 AM on June 30 [13 favorites]

same night as the debate, an hour later, and Biden is energized. So much for the “sundowning” trope.

So in the moment that counts he's incoherent and ineffective, but in front of a friendly crowd he can trot out a re-run slowly and haltingly? Oh, well, that settles the matter then, carry on with the nuclear codes.

Ezra Klein's post-debate podcast touched on a lot of great points about how this performance was just plain unacceptable. For example:

This is not a guy who I think most people would look at up on the stage and say, I am confident that three years from now he should be getting woken up in the middle of the night to handle international crises. That I am confident that two year two years from now, if you put him in a room with a bunch of wavering moderate Democrats or possibly Getable Republicans, that he's gonna be the guy who can make the argument to win them over. ...He did not look up to the job.

posted by daveliepmann at 2:40 AM on June 30 [5 favorites]

You. Can’t. Replace. Your. Nominee. Once. Ballot. Deadlines. Have. Passed.

But don’t take my word for it. Shrug.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:52 AM on June 30 [1 favorite]

i strongly suspect from the short clips i saw (and the known history) that he was, er, chemically enhanced during Thursday's debate.

Given his endlessly repeated accusations that Biden would be chemically enhanced for the event, that's pretty much a certainty; there is no better exemplar of "every accusation a confession" than Donald J. Shitstain.
posted by flabdablet at 3:08 AM on June 30 [12 favorites]

You. Can’t. Replace. Your. Nominee. Once. Ballot. Deadlines. Have. Passed.

How many of those deadlines have passed?
posted by daveliepmann at 3:36 AM on June 30 [2 favorites]

The vast majority of Americans do not care about what is going on in Gaza. In a way you may consider sick, the politicians are listening to the electorate.

The electorate and the politicians can take a running jump. It really does not matter to me if Joe Biden hates Arabs or if he just thinks atrocity polls well.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:44 AM on June 30 [10 favorites]

I do not think it is fully possible in every sense of the words for Biden to believe Palestinians are equal people to him and act this way.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:54 AM on June 30 [9 favorites]

At least 40 million Americans believe in an alternative reality in which Trump never did anything wrong, Dr. Fauci should be in jail, and the entire FBI, CIA, and DOJ are in a vast, left wing conspiracy even while all three of those agencies are dominated by Republicans.

This despite ongoing federal prosecutions of several Democratic politicians and the President’s own son.

The whole of the Republican Party is already deeply immersed in planting the antecedents for their Big Lie version 2.0. If they win we get a fascist autocracy through the implementation of Project 2025 which will allow them to give Trump total, personal control over the entire federal apparatus.

Needless to say, no matter how hard we here in Metafilter pound the drum about what Trump has planned for America, millions of people will be absolutely shocked when Project 2025 happens.

It will be the first they’ve heard of it but already far too late to stop it. And that they’ve not heard about it the way most of us here have and maybe kind of consider it old news - that is such a huge part of the problem.

Though I am certain Trump will make good on his dictator plans I am less certain as to how the rest of the system will respond.

Will people take to the streets only to be met with their own military deployed against them via the Insurrection Act? (Likely, as we are already seeing normalized, militarized police violence against peaceful pro-Gaza students; and in recent years against peaceful BLM protestors etc). Will Greg Abbott’s Texas secede? Forgive my doomsaying, ya’ll.

It’s scary as hell no longer knowing who the fuck is even going to be Trump’s actual opponent at this point. It sucks to be gaslighted and told to learn to read when I say good luck putting a new Dem candidate on those actual fucking ballots, and the NYT is no longer for us.

Jon Stewart’s joke on Thursday night about contacting a realtor in New Zealand? It resonated. Stay safe out there. Hugs to you and yours.
posted by edithkeeler at 4:41 AM on June 30 [7 favorites]

I was also implore everyone saying that the Biden administration is really helpless here do to some fucking reading about the history of US-Israeli relations. Credibly threatening to cut off the mountain of aid and arms the US sends to Israel would do wonders for the children of Gaza. I’m sick of this “dems want to do the right thing but can’t” in every situation.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:42 AM on June 30 [18 favorites]

So in the moment that counts he's incoherent and ineffective, but in front of a friendly crowd he can trot out a re-run slowly and haltingly? Oh, well, that settles the matter then, carry on with the nuclear codes.

It doesn’t settle the matter but it does put context. I hope conversations are happening with people who are more certain and less speculative than we all are (me included, like I hope he’s sharing a true medical assessment with closest advisors).

Ironically “nuclear codes” would be a more normal and familiar situation than debating that thug on live TV with debate rules.
posted by mazola at 6:11 AM on June 30 [1 favorite]

If you'd like some poll numbers to pick over, Data for Progress has put out results from a June 28 poll. Included are polling results for Harris and seven other potential alternate Democratic candidates.

Maybe the most notable number for me: they asked the question, "Do you think the election will be between Biden and Trump?" In March, 80% of respondents said yes. Last Friday, that number had dropped to 68%--even though primaries are over, and party nominations are supposedly a done deal.
posted by gimonca at 6:18 AM on June 30 [4 favorites]

21% of democrats thought Joe Biden’s age was a bigger problem than Trump’s criminal charges and threat to democracy. Wowza!
posted by snofoam at 6:52 AM on June 30 [5 favorites]

I still don’t see how a putative new Dem nominee even properly secures their names on enough state ballots at this point
[...]
You. Can’t. Replace. Your. Nominee. Once. Ballot. Deadlines. Have. Passed.

I'm feeling too [something] to let myself care too much about how this part plays out right now, but whoever is nominated at the convention, by whatever intraparty means, gets that party's spot on the ballot, no?

(The Ohio mess is because the convention itself is happening after their August 7th ballot deadline, and because until the convention there is no official/legal party nominee.)
posted by nobody at 7:18 AM on June 30 [2 favorites]

Will people take to the streets only to be met with their own military deployed against them

This is the case now, here in Texas at least. We don't need an election for this one.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:40 AM on June 30 [4 favorites]

As to the Actual Fucking Ballots, folks need to care more about the procedural part, friends.

Tl;dr - Circa May 24, Ohio governor Mike Dewine (maybe the only pro-democracy Republican in the state of Ohio) called a special session to pass legislation ensuring President Biden is on Ohio’s 2024 ballot.

Understand that the analysts and TV talking heads today will be getting the state-specific ballot procedures wrong, and underestimating the infrastructure issues too.

It’s making me feel crazy that this piece isn’t being fretted about more. There are no more red states, only Voter Suppression States.
posted by edithkeeler at 7:42 AM on June 30 [8 favorites]

Like many people I know, I have been saying that Biden needed to step down from this election. We've been saying it for months. Maybe even years. He is just too old. And now it seems he's too arrogant as well to acknowledge this, maybe this is part of his dementia. His handlers should be ashamed.

Yes, I am grateful, and pleasantly surprised by how much progressive legislation he has managed to enact under extremely difficult circumstances. It is possible to hold multiple opinions and views at the same time around this extremely dangerous situation we're in.

The DNC has really screwed this up but not continuously lifting up younger people.

I am 58 if it matters to any of you, some might accuse me of being a liberal elite, but I promise you, I am solidly middle class, and first generation American on my mother's side. And I deeply follow the news.
posted by tarantula at 7:52 AM on June 30 [10 favorites]

Speaking of someone who has strong opinions about both the genocide in Gaza and Biden's unwillingness to take a firmer part and preventing it: can we please not turn every thread into a referendum on Gaza? There are a lot of places to castigate Biden over that; I'm in those places, castigating him now. We don't need Yet Another Thread where the actual conversation gives way to that.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:06 AM on June 30 [19 favorites]

Is the idea that Biden pledged to run for one term a locally endemic form of dis/mis info? How can it be so prevalent here to repeat things which are simply factually not true?
posted by Wood at 10:07 AM on June 30 [3 favorites]

That Axios article actually gave me some hope for the September debate. First of all, I don't think the fact that Biden can't walk down stairs unassisted or across uneven ground swiftly and nimbly should figure into it. Neither is evidence of cognitive decline. I don't think the fact that he's not at his best at night is necessarily evidence of sundowning, either. It may simply be that he was up past his bedtime whereas Trump was competing at a good time in his perennially adolescent sleep-rise cycle.

So maybe they just need to match Biden's sleep schedule to Trump's. They could absolutely do that. Trump famously tweeted until the wee hours and got up whenever he wanted when he was president. Trump famously fell asleep during his mandatory-early-start trial. No wonder Trump is at his relative best at 9PM; 9PM is his 10 AM and it's Biden's middle of the night. Biden's probably been signalling virtue his entire public life by getting up at 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning. Time to cut the performative early-rise bullshit to preserve the performative debate bullshit which is inarguably the more important performative bullshit. They can start now: move bedtime and waketime up by five or ten minutes a week, blast him with blue light into the night, make him sleep until at least 7:30 or 8:00 like a normal person and move all his morning meetings to the afternoon.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:12 AM on June 30 [13 favorites]

Is the idea that Biden pledged to run for one term a locally endemic form of dis/mis info? How can it be so prevalent here to repeat things which are simply factually not true?

Several reports in 2020 claiming sources within the campaign said he would only run for one term. It was part of the argument that those of us who opposed Biden should fall in line, since we wouldn't be stuck with him in 2024.

If it was disinformation, it is pretty clear who benefitted from its dissemination.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:12 AM on June 30 [4 favorites]

Speaking of someone who has strong opinions about both the genocide in Gaza and Biden's unwillingness to take a firmer part and preventing it: can we please not turn every thread into a referendum on Gaza? There are a lot of places to castigate Biden over that; I'm in those places, castigating him now. We don't need Yet Another Thread where the actual conversation gives way to that.

It seems impossible not to raise the most damning and undeniable criticism of Joe Biden's term when discussing whether he should be president or responding to ungrounded hagiographies of the man. But you can't compartmentalize genocide. There is no aspect of the current federal political process it does not cast a shadow over.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:17 AM on June 30 [8 favorites]

Is the idea that Biden pledged to run for one term a locally endemic form of dis/mis info? How can it be so prevalent here to repeat things which are simply factually not true?

I think I was the one who introduced the idea this time but I didn’t say nor did I believe that he had pledged anything. That would obviously be a bad move. I had read the Politico article already linked reporting that his campaign had signaled informally that he was open to the idea of being a transitional figure, and thought that was a good move. I missed the pushback on that article.
posted by atoxyl at 10:40 AM on June 30

Wait, remind me again why Trump has to pick a new Vice President?

Along with voting for Trump’s Opponent, I vow to work on better pro-Democracy messaging by sharing great memes with people I know.
posted by edithkeeler at 10:51 AM on June 30 [6 favorites]

WaPo: Biden aides plotted debate strategy for months. Then it all collapsed.

Every topic he was asked about Thursday, he had practiced answers for — including the final one about his age.
So aides were bewildered by his performance. Many felt they had never seen him collapse so dramatically. After all, Biden was a veteran of numerous debates — as a senator, vice-presidential nominee and presidential candidate. And they did not understand why he gave an entirely different answer on the age question than the one they spent more than a week perfecting.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:32 AM on June 30 [7 favorites]

Many felt they had never seen him collapse so dramatically.

I am going to be veewwwwwwy angwwwwy if Occam's Razor (re: age) doesn't hold and, in fact, JB was sabotaged in some way. But I guess we'll never know.....
posted by lalochezia at 2:25 PM on June 30

I don't think the fact that Biden can't walk down stairs unassisted or across uneven ground swiftly and nimbly should figure into it. Neither is evidence of cognitive decline.

The first thing that came to my mind in agreement was, "Stephen Hawking, bro."
posted by VTX at 2:59 PM on June 30

Now, a few days after the debate, what strikes me is how much anger there is towards the DNC/Biden, and how unwilling (or unable) Biden and his inner circle seem willing to engage with that anger. Take a gander at the comment section in the NYTimes article on damage control efforts by Biden's team. Not only are all the top 20+ comments angry, but they root that anger in what they see as the hypocrisy of the Party, and a sense that this debate is a sign of that the threat to Democracy isn't just coming from the right.

The top comment starts off with "We all saw what we saw and that can't be "unseen." I thought it was only in Trump's world where what we saw were alternate facts."

Second top comment: "Why does the sole focus seem to be on reassuring donors?? What about the voters?? I do not feel reassured. This election shouldn’t be about ego and the desire to hold onto power for personal reasons. That is exactly what Trump is doing. We should be better than that."

Third top comment: "I think most of us are just feeling incredulous at the amount of hubris coming from the president’s inner circle. They have tried to hide this from us for so long and now they are saying it was just a “tough night.” Most of us feel duped and angry. It must just be about power when a person won’t let go and retire. We expect that from Trump, but we didn’t from Biden."

These are clearly not fringe sentiments right now. People feeling anger right now may still vote, but as the fourth top comment points out "that’s not the group of voters he needs to convince. Biden needs independent and undecided voters in order to win reelection. Among that group, he is losing support, compounded by his poor performance in the debate."

For well over a year, voters have expressed they didn't want Biden to run again, citing his age, and journalists took these concerns to the DNC, and the response, over and over again was - "Don't worry, he's fine, he's mentally sharp, he'll have a great campaign, you'll see." And a lot of us had a hard time believing it, (I know I hoped Ezra Klein's call back in Feb for an open primary might gain traction), but also at the same time it seemed to absurd to believe - with so much at stake in this election, how could so many people stake their reputations to a candidate that was a ticking time bomb? The degree of egotism and disconnect from reality required seemed unbelievable - so yeah, people angry at the DNC and Biden, and that's not great when the DNC needs people to knock on doors, get out the vote, etc.
posted by coffeecat at 3:01 PM on June 30 [17 favorites]

That Biden's team accepted a debate at all convinces me that the Biden we saw was not a 'known factor' in any shape or form. I mean, if Biden is having periodic episodes like that with *any* regularity then you just stay waaaaaay clear.
posted by mazola at 3:02 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

Washington Post: Biden aides plotted debate strategy for months. Then it all collapsed.

At a fundraiser later Friday, the first lady told donors her husband had admitted something went wrong.

“After last night’s debate, he said, ‘You know, Jill, I don’t know what happened. I didn’t feel that great,’” she recounted. “And I said, ‘Look, Joe, we are not going to let 90 minutes define the four years that you’ve been president.’”

He doesn't know what happened? I get they wouldn't tell us, but why relate THAT.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:16 PM on June 30 [10 favorites]

I mean sure, I have no doubt that the inner circle never saw him perform quite so badly as the debate - but there have been signs, even back to the 2020 debates, that he's not as sharp as he was during his time as Obama's VP. And he hasn't debated since then, and yet there hasn't been a shortage of various gaffs he's committed in much lower-pressure, easier situations. I wouldn't be surprised if the inner circle is a bit delusional themselves (in part since they obviously benefit if he runs and wins) and/or simply thought he'd be able to meet the very low bar of just seeming boringly competent and better than Trump. But also, this is the same inner circle assuring us all now that Biden will do well in the September debate! They seem oddly willing to gamble on old Joe having a "good" night.
posted by coffeecat at 3:30 PM on June 30 [3 favorites]

mazola People often have a difficult time seeing, or accepting anyway, things that they don't want to. Especially if you're looking at a decline over time. It's easy to just think each incident is isolated, a one time fluke, it's easy to say he's fine just tired, or just has a cold, or it's really not so bad.

I'm not at all doubtful that they were genuinely taken by surprise.
posted by sotonohito at 4:56 PM on June 30 [4 favorites]

What if this happens again? By this I mean, what if Biden makes a public, televised appearance where he’s indistinguishable from a dementia patient. Seems like you can explain away one of these events as a bad night but what if it happens again? Seems like you would have to remove him.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:36 PM on June 30 [7 favorites]

what if Biden makes a public, televised appearance where he’s indistinguishable from a dementia patient

New on AMC this fall: THE INCUMBENT DEAD
(Also starring some guy named Lincoln)
posted by zaixfeep at 6:03 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

I am holding out hope that the debate plus post-debate coverage will be bad enough that he has to back out. I would guess Harris will be at least as strong if not better once the polling data really reflects the debate. I can see why his staff and other top dems would wait until this is clear to jump horses.
posted by snofoam at 6:13 PM on June 30 [3 favorites]

I was also implore everyone saying that the Biden administration is really helpless here do to some fucking reading about the history of US-Israeli relations.

But the Palestine threads are too depressing and stressful though, so I've gathered.

can we please not turn every thread into a referendum on Gaza?

And so this is what happens.
posted by cendawanita at 6:21 PM on June 30 [6 favorites]

MJ: Trump Turned “Palestinian” Into a Slur

Jeet Heer (commenting on Trump now, having launched his new slur, using it in rallies): Trump's racism is clear. What's also clear is none of the mainstream Democrats will respond to it because they themselves refuse to acknowledge anti-Palestinian racism is a real thing.

Quote from Trump: "Schumer has become a Palestinian. He’s Jewish but he’s become a Palestinian"

Huff Post: Palestinian Lives Were Invisible To Both Donald Trump And Joe Biden In The First Debate

And only one comment here so far at the start of the weekend that even noted this. I didn't watch the debate and stayed on this thread. Invisible.
posted by cendawanita at 6:25 PM on June 30 [11 favorites]

Indeed.
posted by Gadarene at 6:46 PM on June 30 [3 favorites]

“The Choice is Biden or Harris,” Daniel W. Drezner, Drezner’s World, 29 June 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:13 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

ob1quixote: ““Dark Heart of the Blue City,” Jeff Sharlet, Scenes from a Slow Civil War, 27 June 2024”

“Wonkette Goes To Hell,” Dominic Gwinn, The Wonkette, 30 June 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:20 PM on June 30 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure who Daniel Drezner is, but the idea that Biden would resign so that Harris could run in his place ignores a critical fact: the only American president who has ever resigned office is Richard Nixon. Not really great company to keep. Biden would be remembered as a disgrace, and -- if history is any indication (there's only one previous case to examine, of course) -- Harris, the newly appointed, unelected president, would fail to be elected. So that seems bad.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:33 PM on June 30 [3 favorites]

Would he be remembered as a disgrace though? This isn’t a scandal, it would presumably be a health-based decision.
posted by mazola at 7:35 PM on June 30 [9 favorites]

Nixon resigned in order to get a pardon and avoid jail time so that means Biden can’t resigned to a severe health issue and have his VP be the nominee?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:43 PM on June 30 [10 favorites]

If the election was held tomorrow, all signs point to Biden losing to Trump - and if that were to happen, he'd be remembered as the doddering old man who prioritized his ego over his party and country. Interestingly, in a recent Data For Progress poll (also linked above), Harris does as well as Biden does in a general head-to-head. And a number of other potential candidates do as good or better (in terms of a net difference). It's true some of these people are relatively untested, but if the DNC called up CNN and said look, we need to do some emergency debates between now and the convention so we can at least get a sense of what voters want via polling, no doubt CNN would gladly take the ratings. It would build buzz. Yes, it might fail, but so will ridin' with Biden off a cliff.
posted by coffeecat at 8:03 PM on June 30 [3 favorites]

Olbermann is reporting that the official talking points are 1) Joe was impaired due to cold syrup (e.g. NyQuil instead of DayQuil) and 2) the 'intervention' this weekend was an Annie Liebowitz photo shoot of the family. Mediaite is reporting that the family wants his top debate advisers' heads on a platter; POTUS himself is not so inclined.

Also, it wouldn't be resignation, just 'early retirement'. He could offer to retire once sworn in in 2025; also Harris, unlike Ford, would have at least been elected VP.
posted by zaixfeep at 8:14 PM on June 30 [3 favorites]

Biden is battling perception as much as reality now.

Stepping aside for Harris (now, pre-election) could be shown as a noble act for good of party/country and the strength of a functioning system (we have a VP in case they need to step in for heaven’s sake!). It would not be about person ambition.

I like the reasoning in that Drezner piece.
posted by mazola at 8:20 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

the kind of guy who runs for president 3 times doesn't step down and let someone else take his place. these people don't care about anything but themselves. they're not going to save us or do the courageous, hard but right thing. Biden will be the candidate
posted by dis_integration at 8:25 PM on June 30 [10 favorites]

Then hopefully that’s enough and his help us all.
posted by mazola at 8:28 PM on June 30 [1 favorite]

It's more apt to say (borrowing from a quote about the USA government itself from James Baker) that Biden has his interests and he has his values, and while it's generally best for everyone when they coincide, that is frequently not the case as often as it should be.

On the other hand, Trump has only interests and no real values, so there's that.
posted by zaixfeep at 8:40 PM on June 30 [5 favorites]

the kind of guy who runs for president 3 times doesn't step down and let someone else take his place.

Nobody go back in time and tell Tricky Dick. I’d hate for him to change his mind about resigning.
posted by armeowda at 9:20 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

Nobody go back in time and tell Tricky Dick. I’d hate for him to change his mind about resigning.

That was for his personal benefit, though, rather than any sense of civic duty.
posted by Gadarene at 9:31 PM on June 30 [4 favorites]

Biden stepping down would be seen as an admission of weakness. In a non-toxic culture where admitting weakness is okay, that would be okay. Do we live in that culture? I'm pretty sure no one born in 1942 thinks that we do. I have a feeling that Biden would rather do just about anything except admit he can't get it up anymore and resign the office he's been seeking for longer than most of us have been alive. Go from being president to being a punchline? Get real.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:36 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

Olbermann bulletin podcast (slyt, ~20 mins) KO is definitely not all gloom and doom. No update on his beloved cat Miss Precious Perfect, though ;-)
posted by zaixfeep at 10:15 PM on June 30 [2 favorites]

recommit to defeating fascism in the ballot boxes and in the streets

I commit to voting at least 4 times in the November election. As for the streets, I'll take W 7th Ave.
posted by neuron at 10:16 PM on June 30

Biden stepping down would be seen as an admission of weakness. In a non-toxic culture where admitting weakness is okay, that would be okay. Do we live in that culture? I'm pretty sure no one born in 1942 thinks that we do. I have a feeling that Biden would rather do just about anything except admit he can't get it up anymore and resign the office he's been seeking for longer than most of us have been alive. Go from being president to being a punchline? Get real.

If the alternative is a likely descent into fascism, he should suck it up and be noble.
posted by Gadarene at 10:16 PM on June 30 [7 favorites]

It's nice to imagine he could just call Netanyahu and make him stop, but it isn't how stuff works.

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/08/13/world/reagan-demands-end-to-attacks-in-a-blunt-telephone-call-to-begin.html
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 11:26 PM on June 30 [8 favorites]

Brief summary of KO's bulletin podcast I linked above, for those who don't youtube:
- Lincoln faced a similar no-confidence situation prior to the 1864 election and prevailed.
- Biden likely took otc cold medicine against advice because he has a stubborn streak.
- Temporary cognitive impairment in seniors from otc cold medicine is a very well known thing.
- Biden got better as the debate progressed because the medicine was wearing off.
- Biden's impairment ironically facilitated Trump revealing his true nature as a crazy vicious liar to all of America. For many Americans, this was the first time they got to see firsthand the sustained Trump lie/word vomit firehose at full force.
- The debate didn't change many minds, according to polls KO noted. He still sees Biden ahead. The alternate Dems not so much.
- The NYT is and has for the last 4 years been unprofessionally petty to Biden because he is insufficiently deferential to them.

There's more but this comment is too big already. Doomerism isn't the only possible narrative for this.
posted by zaixfeep at 11:39 PM on June 30 [8 favorites]

"Biden sucked because he drank cold medicine" is an absurd and stubborn enough narrative that, frankly, I would absolutely believe it of Joe Biden.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:48 AM on July 1 [7 favorites]

He had a second cup of camomile tea.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 3:50 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Go from being president to being a punchline? Get real.

I'm sure its an unpleasant idea. But if the alternative is a Trump presidency, maybe he should try holding his nose and choosing the lesser evil.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:51 AM on July 1 [6 favorites]

We need to stop talking about Biden’s values like he has any other than his own ego. Jfc you’ve seen what he’s done and we’re still talking about him like he’s a fundamentallly decent person and not a complete ghoul because he smiles?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:54 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]

Jfc you’ve seen what he’s done and we’re still talking about him like he’s a fundamentallly decent person and not a complete ghoul because he smiles?

He's literally a politician. It's not that deep.
posted by phunniemee at 5:20 AM on July 1 [4 favorites]

Biden stepping down would be seen as an admission of weakness. In a non-toxic culture where admitting weakness is okay, that would be okay. Do we live in that culture?

There's also the point that doing this now, right after the debate, just solidifies the story that Trump landed a KO, he just knocked Joe right out of the race. Trump's a bully, and his mythology rests on the unfortunate truth that far too many people read his bullying as strength and power. Buttressing that mythology by teeing up a new myth about how Trump is so strong he defeated Biden & the Democrats even before the election is maybe not such a hot idea. At the least there needs to be time and a concerted push to spread the other (truer) narrative about Trump - that he's a lying whining man-baby who's racked up far more losses than wins since 2016.

IOW, yeah, given our culture, if Biden resigns for health reasons, he's got to do it from a position of relative strength. Lord knows how that might happen, but at the very least I would think taking time for the debate performance to fade from public memory somewhat is the first step.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:21 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]

Trump's racism is clear. What's also clear is none of the mainstream Democrats will respond to it because they themselves refuse to acknowledge anti-Palestinian racism is a real thing.

I'd say that Jeet Heer almost got it right.

The Democrats won't respond because they would have to acknowledge their own their own deeply seated anti-Palestinian racism if they did.

The mainstream Democrats are more than willing to stand aside and let Netanyahu kill every Palestinian in Gaza. They want the "conflict" to end, and they clearly believe it will only happen when every Palestinian is either dead or completely submitted to Israeli rule.

And the idea of Biden stepping down is laughable. It will not happen.
posted by sotonohito at 5:29 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]

Biden sucked because he drank cold medicine.

So, I was right!
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 5:35 AM on July 1

Biden is not going to drop out for his own reasons, because it looks weak, and because this country is not gonna elect Kamala Harris.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:18 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]

I mean, I want to stress, I think Biden sucks fucking shit. But if anyone really thinks he's going to step aside for the good of democracy, they're delusional.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:27 AM on July 1 [4 favorites]

The presidency is too nuanced to simply say, "Biden doesn't like Palestine, and so I won't vote for Biden." Actually, you can totally say that but yo - have you heard what the other guy has to say about Palestine? Seriously, give that a listen. If your number one goal is the fewest deaths, voting out Biden (as things stand right now) is the exact wrong choice. Which is fucked up, absolutely, but Trump will 100% guaranteed kill more - if only to one-up Biden.

Speaking with a non-US friend here over the weekend, they could not begin to believe that a man who could not finish a sentence he started in a coherent manner, could even be considered a candidate for Pres. And though they meant Biden in context, it of course applies to TFG as well. If you step outside the 'Bubble' it really is fucking nuts that Biden is running. That Trump is running. That either of these two are running.
posted by From Bklyn at 7:14 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]

The presidency is too nuanced to simply say, "Biden doesn't like Palestine, and so I won't vote for Biden."

It really isn't. In any kind of sane, decent country there would be a candidate that isn't pro-genocide, and that would be the one to pick. The US political system is wretched enough that there is no plausible option that "likes" Palestine enough to not actively assist the people committing mass murder and engineering famine there.

There is no nuance here. Just a machine doing what it is designed to do. Advancing the interests of empire without regard for human suffering.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:23 AM on July 1 [9 favorites]

I've been practicing geriatric medicine for 30 years. I work with people who have dementia every day. I determine whether someone has dementia every day.

Biden doesn't have dementia. This is the consensus among people in my field.
posted by neuron at 8:22 AM on July 1 [18 favorites]

So... He's just bad at presenting as a lucid person? He can be incapacitated by the wrong medicine, and nobody cared enough to stop that happening? Like it or not, I think that might be a problem regardless of the root cause.
posted by sagc at 8:35 AM on July 1 [7 favorites]

Biden doesn't have dementia. This is the consensus among people in my field.

Sadly in an environment flooded with bullshit the perception probably matters more than the fact.
posted by mazola at 8:43 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]

I determine whether someone has dementia every day.

Do you typically make these assessments based on watching people talk on the TV?
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:50 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]

If he doesn't have dementia then what the fuck is wrong with him.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:56 AM on July 1 [7 favorites]

I’m still seeing a lot of chatter about Trump’s “black jobs” quip though it feels like it’s hardly been mentioned in mainstream media. And that black barbershop owner admitting he’s lost business after hosting that Trump event is getting a lot of attention in black media space too.

I often feel like I live in a parallel universe and I’m really feeling it these past few days.
posted by girlmightlive at 9:02 AM on July 1 [7 favorites]

have you heard what the other guy has to say about Palestine? Seriously, give that a listen. If your number one goal is the fewest deaths, voting out Biden (as things stand right now) is the exact wrong choice. Which is fucked up, absolutely, but Trump will 100% guaranteed kill more - if only to one-up Biden.

This is what I keep thinking. You honestly think Trump is the *better* choice on this topic?

Do you typically make these assessments based on watching people talk on the TV?

I dunno, doesn't seem that much different from listening to someone talk IRL?
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:24 AM on July 1 [1 favorite]

pretty sure most doctors aren't out spying on conversations and diagnosing based on that, but I really don't know why it matters? The appearance of frailty is evident and impactful.
posted by sagc at 9:35 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I don't think most people really care if he has dementia or not (the diagnosis of which involves more than just listening to a person talk) - and many people saying that are just using it as a short-hand for "cognitive decline." But all the excuses just make it the situation worse. "He's best between 10am–4pm" sounds more like what a nursing home may advise you for visiting an elderly relative. "He had a cold" and "He took NyQuil" invite comparison - like, I know I'm not at my best when I'm sick and have taken NyQuil, but I also know I can still string together a coherent sentence.

People keep saying, "But look at his rally the next day." I listened to the main clip circulating, and at one point he slurs his words and sounds drunk or like he's having a stroke.

Anyway, I was just listening to the most recent What Next podcast, and the guest points out that besides Biden choosing to retire and hand the reigns to Harris, or choosing not to run again and allowing an open primary, there is a clause that allows the delegates at the convention to just nominate someone else. And especially if Biden continues to stumble, we can imagine that donors and the like will be pressuring them. How likely that is is no doubt contingent on what the next couple of weeks look like.
posted by coffeecat at 9:35 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

This is what I keep thinking. You honestly think Trump is the *better* choice on this topic?

Obviously not. The anger isn't being directed at Biden because Trump is better. It is because the Democrats have offered up a truly terrible candidate, and actively resisted the cultivation of young talent that could possibly take over for people who are decades past any reasonable retirement age

There are a lot of reasons to hate Joe Biden as a candidate. The biggest is that he might manage to lose to a senile conman who surrounds himself with fascists.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:53 AM on July 1 [13 favorites]

(oops, missed the edit window, but I meant open convention, not open primary)

Anyway:

I’m still seeing a lot of chatter about Trump’s “black jobs” quip though it feels like it’s hardly been mentioned in mainstream media.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, I gather you're mentioning this in support of Biden, but I'd say that in addition to being further evidence of Trump's racism, it's also not a great comment for Biden either. This should have been a softball for Biden - he didn't even need to be clever here, a basic "I imagine many at home are wondering what exactly my opponent means by 'Black jobs'" would have been at least something - but he didn't address it at all. He just let that comment, and racist logic behind it, go unchallenged.
posted by coffeecat at 9:55 AM on July 1 [6 favorites]

I don't mention it necessarily in support of Biden but you are highlighting the general gulf I'm seeing between white Democrats and black Democrats.

Biden literally said if you don't vote for him, you're not black, he did apologize but it seemed at points that white people were more mad about that than black people. It's an interesting dynamic. I just seem to never see black people talk about how they need to be convinced/excited to vote for the Democratic nominee. The Republican nominee is always the worse option. So, yeah, Trump saying "black jobs" is always worse than Biden's non-response.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:13 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

So, yeah, Trump saying "black jobs" is always worse than Biden's non-response.

I agree! But I also think that if the Dems have a chance of winning, they need to drop the candidate that 72% of registered voters doesn't think has the mental capacity to serve. And I think that that moment, and all the other moments he failed to challenge Trump, are good examples of why 72% of voters think that. Dems might still vote for him, it's the swing voters I'm worried about.
posted by coffeecat at 10:33 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]

I share the same concerns about swing voters which is why I’m not really convinced that they’ll quickly and easily rally around a new candidate. Pretty much every candidate has a risk of alienating a voting bloc.
posted by girlmightlive at 10:57 AM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Pinboard: People in the US acting like it's borderline impossible to replace Biden on the ballot five months from Election Day while the UK announces and holds a general election within the space of six weeks.
posted by lalochezia at 11:31 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]

Honestly I think this is the best version of Biden we’ve ever had. Biden who trails off while his staff enacts genuinely progressive legislation is a notable improvement over Biden who voted to authorize the Iraq War. I’ll take the Biden who doesn’t seem totally clear on where he is while his cabinet takes care of shit over the Biden who sponsored the RAVE Act any day of the week.

Cognitive Decline Biden is my favorite Biden by a mile.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:50 AM on July 1 [8 favorites]

Re: swing voters. From the reporting I've read, most people that fall into this rather mystifying category don't like Trump, but simultaneously don't trust Biden on the economy. Which is to say, if the Democrats offered a ticket that could articulate a clear message on how the Democrats are working to address the issues that a lot of people are facing (rising rents, inflation, etc.) there is reason to suspect some of those swing voters would be relieved they had a different option. And again, a more exciting ticket would motivate turnout of the base - apathy is a problem right now, even if the stakes are getting increasingly higher (thanks Supreme Court!).
posted by coffeecat at 11:52 AM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Cognitive Decline Biden is my favorite Biden by a mile.

"What does this red button do? Malarkey!"
posted by lalochezia at 12:05 PM on July 1

The US and UK have significantly different electoral systems which makes them behave differently. There's problems with the US approach of fixed elections, the endless campaign season for example, and problems with the UK system of the PM calling elections whenever they think it would be most beneficial to them.

Replacing Biden at this stage is not IMPOSSIBLE, but it's extremely difficult and unlikely.

It'd take the Democratic Party deciding to free Biden's pledged votes at the convention and sending us into brokered convention territory. Doable, but it's create a massive flood of ill will and involve the DNC changing the rules on the fly.

If he dies between now and the convention I believe the current rules say the pledged delegates are free and are not obligated to vote for Harris.

But, then, there comes the next problem: who?

I hate to say it, but the Democrats are really in a bind because there isn't anyone who is positioned to be the front runner. Harris is unpopular. The other major contenders from the 2020 primary cycle were Sanders (who has no institutional support), Warren (who has no institutional support). Neither has a chance in hell of getting the nomination now.

The 2024 primaries basically didn't happen, so they give us no clue.

And then what? There basically aren't any high profile Democrats except Ocasio-Cortez (ineligable becuase she's only 34 and also the establishment liberals hate her), Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and if you really stretch maybe, possibly, Jefferies.

Schumer and Pelosi have no real national support.

So who?

I mean, I can think of people I'd like as the candidate but I don't think they'd have a chance. Katie Porter, for example. Maybe Corey Booker. But I don't think either of htem would have the support to push through at a brokered convention.

Honestly assuming there is an election in 2028 and we don't get Harris basiclaly by default since she was VP I have no clue who would even be running in the Democratic Primaries.
posted by sotonohito at 12:08 PM on July 1 [6 favorites]

Yes, I think people are being way too optimistic about any other Democrat’s chances. I feel like people are imagining candidates that don’t really exist.
posted by girlmightlive at 12:18 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

I often feel like I live in a parallel universe and I’m really feeling it these past few days.

I see people fixated on Biden and I feel the same way.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:27 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

So the Vermont Republican Party has this rule prohibiting it from supporting candidates who have been convicted of a felony, except in “extenuating circumstances.”
Apparently one of those circumstances is if it's Trump.
posted by MtDewd at 12:28 PM on July 1

Harris is unpopular

People keep saying this, but in recent head-to-head polling against Trump she does just as well as Biden, and her favorability rating is higher than both Biden and Trump. So, citations please. (Of course, some of the other potential candidates beat all three of them)
posted by coffeecat at 12:28 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

Her numbers are better but still not great. As I said a few days ago, I don’t think this country will vote a black woman for president this year. Everything Obama got she will get x10.
posted by girlmightlive at 12:40 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Harris is “unpopular” not that dissimilar to ‘Biden is too old’ yet strangely not ‘Trump is a mendacious, convicted felon’
posted by From Bklyn at 12:40 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

Harris is “unpopular” not that dissimilar to ‘Biden is too old’ yet strangely not ‘Trump is a mendacious, convicted felon’

I mean, those are all reasons I don't want any of them running for president.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:46 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Manwich Horror, it just occurred to me how eponysterical it would be if you called Biden 'Sloppy Joe'...
posted by zaixfeep at 1:21 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Harris also hasn’t benefited from a barrage of pro Harris ads the way Biden has, plus she’s going to do better in at least one state than Biden: Michigan.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:31 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]

Via electoral-vote.com

Joe Biden raked in $27 million in the 24 hours after the debate (and $33 million in the first 48 hours). While Thomas Friedman and Paul Krugman are crying in their white whine, ordinary Democratic voters reacted to the debate by whipping out their credit cards and going to ActBlue.

…Thursday was the best fundraising day of the entire campaign and Friday was second
posted by darkstar at 1:52 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]

That appears to be the result of a serious fundraising push from the party post-debate that felt mystifying in context.
posted by Selena777 at 1:55 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Those out of touch elites with their ... white wine and anxiety about the incompetence of the president in the face of rising fascism.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 2:00 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile, First Lady "of-the-people" Jill Biden is on the cover of the Vogue today, in an outfit costing roughly $5k, announcing that "We will decide our future." Better vote folks, Democracy is on the line! (Seriously, how are these people so bad at messaging?)
posted by coffeecat at 2:05 PM on July 1 [8 favorites]

First Ladies in Vogue is something of a tradition, Republicans were mad that Melania didn’t get a cover.
posted by girlmightlive at 2:12 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]

Political Wire:

“Internal Biden Campaign Poll Shows No Real Change

A top pollster for the Biden campaign circulated new internal poll results Monday that showed the president’s standing unchanged despite his poor performance in last week’s debate…”
posted by darkstar at 2:35 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]

I don't care about her being on Vogue's cover, but I have a hard time believing she didn't approve the pull quote on the cover, which reads like a middle finger to voters/democracy.
posted by coffeecat at 2:38 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

coffeecat I was basing it on the fact that in polls over the past year she'd been consistently around -5 to -10 against Trump. Maybe that's shifted since the debates.

Also "preferred to Trump" isn't quite the same thing as "popular" or "energizing voters". We haven't seen anyone really get Democrats fired up to vote since Obama. And while I hate it and I don't want it to be true, Trump really does get his voters fired up. Whatever he's doing it's working on Republican voters.

What really bothers me is that in 2020 Biden was polling at anywhere from +5 to +15 for the entire year before the election. And he barely squeaked through due to the EC being horrible.

And for the past year in 2024 Trump has been consistently polling at around +2 over Biden.

If a +5ish lead in the polls converted into a by the skin of his teeth victory in 2020, I'm just not seeing a lot of hope for any victory when he's been down by 2ish for the past year. I know it's early yet, I know things change fast, but.... I'm not very hopeful.
posted by sotonohito at 2:39 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

“We will decide our future” is clearly communicating that the people have the power to determine their future. I.e., through democratically electing people to public office who will not support, among other things, stripping away reproductive rights. I don’t see how it could be interpreted as a middle finger to voters/democracy.
posted by darkstar at 2:43 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

When I joined here right after 9/11, Objectively proSaddam was what people here were calling anyone opposing the invasion of Iraq. In less than a quarter century we've gotten to Objectively proTrump. While it was never an actual Chinese curse to wish anyone so, we are indeed living in interesting times.
posted by y2karl at 2:48 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

I agree sotonohito that she's no shoo-in nor a particularly strong candidate - just that I find the common reframe of "Biden can't drop out because Harris is weak" to miss the point that they are equally weak. And I do think a lot of Democrats would get excited about the chance to elect the first woman to be president, even if Harris wouldn't necessarily be their first pick for that honor.

darkstar, I realize that's the literal meaning, but to have that be the cover quote, next to a photo of her, when reporting suggests she's among the top people in the inner circle fighting against Biden stepping down, well, it's hard not to hear something else as the subtext.
posted by coffeecat at 3:03 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

That seems like a real stretch as an interpretation, frankly.

As for Biden withdrawing, sadly there’s no way to know the motivational context when someone is suggesting Biden’s debate performance means he needs to withdraw from the race. I’m sure some, including folks in this thread, are arguing this in good faith. I’m also sure that there are others that are latching onto his debate performance as a convenient opportunity to undermine him, because they fundamentally reject him and his politics. And I am absolutely sure that there are members of the pundit class and the media that are milking it for all it’s worth and making it Biden’s “But Her Emails” moment.

(I counted eleven articles on CNN’s front page on Friday related to Biden’s performance and people’s reactions, most of them heavily editorializing with loaded words in the titles. Chaos gets clicks, and if it bleeds, it leads.)
posted by darkstar at 3:13 PM on July 1 [6 favorites]

(FWIW, I suspect the Vogue cover was designed weeks ago, and Jill Biden almost certainly had no editorial control over the pull quote, particularly not since Thursday evening.)
posted by darkstar at 3:17 PM on July 1 [9 favorites]

If he doesn't have dementia then what the fuck is wrong with him.

He had a cold (or something like it) which was apparent the moment he started talking. That would do it. Also, some dingaling may have given him an antihistamine for the cold, which is ill-advised in older adults.

Is he old? Yes. Is he frail? Perhaps. Is he a liar, a cheat, a racist, a fascist, a felon? No.
posted by neuron at 3:35 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

What a ringing endorsement. If the president gets the sniffles his brain turns to mush.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:40 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

what if the real president was the one whose brain was mush all along the way
posted by phunniemee at 3:45 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

I suspect the Vogue cover was designed weeks ago

Eh, Vogue claims they were in touch with her over the weekend. Also to add to all this is the fact that the post-debate fundraising email called critics the "bedwetting brigade." This family clearly does not hold the voters in high regard.
posted by coffeecat at 3:45 PM on July 1 [6 favorites]

Is he old? Yes. Is he frail? Perhaps. Is he a liar, a cheat, a racist, a fascist, a felon? No.

I haven't been engaging much with Metafilter over the past several months, so it is most disheartening to come back and see that for so many of you Palestinians literally do not matter AT ALL. How can you claim that Biden is not racist when he, personally, is the one determined to keep supplying weapons to Israel as they continue to wipe out Palestinians? Seriously, if it was a world leader you didn't like doing this, would you say something like this so easily? Would you now be furiously coming up with justifications why Biden supplying weapons to Israel is not racism, and arguments about why it is not appropriate to mention this issue in a US election thread?
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 4:21 PM on July 1 [16 favorites]

I’m sure some, including folks in this thread, are arguing this in good faith. I’m also sure that there are others that are latching onto his debate performance as a convenient opportunity to undermine him, because they fundamentally reject him and his politics.

Some of us already despised the man and are also horrified that he managed to deliver a performance that seemed less coherent than Donald Trump's unhinged rambling.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 5:21 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]

(I counted eleven articles on CNN’s front page on Friday related to Biden’s performance and people’s reactions, most of them heavily editorializing with loaded words in the titles. Chaos gets clicks, and if it bleeds, it leads.)

On the other hand, the SCOTUS ruling that basically permits the President to engage in any crime as long as it's in an official* capacity seems to have bumped most of the other news off of the front pages of CNN and other news sites. So we got that going for us.


*To be interpreted by whatever sympathetic Federal judge the fascists can find, one presumes.
posted by darkstar at 5:29 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

> Does that include all the Black voters in the Southern primary states in 2020 who got him the nomination?

i’m not even sure what to think of this kind of response, but it doesn’t seem in good faith to me
posted by dis_integration at 5:38 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Some of us already despised the man and are also horrified that he managed to deliver a performance that seemed less coherent than Donald Trump's unhinged rambling.

I respect your opinion, and I think this illustrates my point. If the discussion is about whether Joe Biden should withdraw from the race because he’s old and the debate illustrated it, then it’s helpful to know that the person making that suggestion actually despises Biden, and that loathing predates the debate such that even a good debate performance wouldn’t have changed that.

I agree he had a bad showing on Thursday. And I’ll still be voting for Biden BECAUSE the Palestinians matter to me, and I see him as the best (if flawed) option for them, of the two likely candidates. And I see efforts to get him to withdraw as accomplishing nothing substantive except to further undermine him, which definitely serves some folks’ agendas well, because they don’t want him to be the candidate on policy grounds, anyway.

FWIW, other people matter to me, as well as the Palestinians, including people of color in the US, immigrants, lgbtqia+ folks, educators, children, the people dying of genocide in Ukraine, the women at risk of dying because of restriction of reproductive rights, the people fighting fascism in the U.S. and around the world, and a whole lot of other people for whom the US Republican Party of today is a death sentence. If caring about those people, and thinking Biden is the best realistic hope for them this November makes me a “genocide supporter” — or “racist” or some other epithet that has been used in this thread — in the eyes of some, then I don’t know what to say, except there’s probably no way for me to have any meaningful conversation with folks who take those views.

MeFi doesn’t really do “intensely hot topics that divide the Liberals/Left” very well. Never has. I think this may be animating some of the calls by some upthread to take the Gaza debate to other threads that are focusing on it, dunno.
posted by darkstar at 6:05 PM on July 1 [17 favorites]

Biden has accomplished a lot as president, but he clearly is not up to this campaign, or probably continuing to be president.

Gaza is an atrocity, but I have no idea what vote an American might make to improve things there. It is certainly not a vote for Trump or a vote for someone who has no chance of being elected. It is an important issue, but one that seems irrelevant to the US presidential election (except that getting Trump elected will surely make things much worse).
posted by snofoam at 6:20 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]

“except that getting Trump elected will surely make things much worse”


100% agree with this.
posted by darkstar at 6:24 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]

I think everyone here does.
posted by Gadarene at 6:27 PM on July 1 [8 favorites]

I agree he had a bad showing on Thursday. And I’ll still be voting for Biden BECAUSE the Palestinians matter to me, and I see him as the best (if flawed) option for them, of the two likely candidates.

I'll vote for him if he's on the ticket. But the prospect of having an option for a president who isn't on board with mass murder or senile seems pretty good.

If caring about those people, and thinking Biden is the best realistic hope for them this November makes me a “genocide supporter” — or “racist” or some other epithet that has been used in this thread — in the eyes of some, then I don’t know what to say, except there’s probably no way for me to have any meaningful conversation with folks who take those views.

No one is saying to support Trump or that voting for Biden in November is some great sin.

I think leaving Biden on the ticket makes a Trump presidency more likely. It also makes a Biden presidency more likely. Since I'd like to avoid either, and get a progressive president who will actively work to secure the safety of vulnerable people, rather than leave them hoping that the next election won't be their last, I'd like to get a different candidate in November.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:28 PM on July 1 [5 favorites]

Does that include all the Black voters in the Southern primary states in 2020 who got him the nomination?

i’m not even sure what to think of this kind of response, but it doesn’t seem in good faith to me

...I think that Obama kinda maybe hurt us a little bit” with his rhetorical skills, as “we got used to this amazing orator.”

Crockett criticized Trump, who “knows how to just keep talking, and he’ll say anything.”

She also pointed out that Trump repeatedly lied during the debate.

“This fool tried to take credit for insulin prices,” Crockett said, pointing out how Trump falsely claimed credit for a policy that Biden’s administration accomplished.

Crockett summarized her support for Biden by declaring, “I don’t really care that he was off for 90 minutes,” and “the reality is that he is 50,000 times better than Trump,” who Republicans still support despite his numerous felony convictions.

Jasmine Crockett Comes To Biden’s Defense After Debate:
‘Democrats Get Into A Frenzy’
posted by y2karl at 6:53 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

In my experience, southern black voters who vote D religiously and people appalled by Biden’s support of what’s happening in Palestine… overlap.
posted by Selena777 at 7:10 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Also just remember that regardless of what Trump says now, he will say and/or do what he perceives as best for him personally in the moment. People around him can talk him into any damn thing. So while Trumps word might indicate things that he might do, what he actually will do has nothing to do with what he says now.

First-past-the-post voting tends to produce a choice between the two worst options and then everyone based on preventing some other candidate from winning.

So we need to change how we vote, which requires power. So a lot more people voting and otherwise more engaged, a violent insurrection, a mass movement, or enough giant mobs or other stuff I haven't thought of. None of these are mutually exclusive so free to support any/all of the above as your morals dictate.
posted by VTX at 7:13 PM on July 1 [1 favorite]

ob1quixote, 18 January 2014 : “The AUMF will never be repealed will it? Sic transit gloria Civitatum Foederatarum…[.]”

Cf. Let This Radicalize You by Kelly Hayes and Mariame Kaba
posted by ob1quixote at 7:25 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

I think this may be animating some of the calls by some upthread to take the Gaza debate to other threads that are focusing on it

It seems very unfair. People can't have it both ways, talking about Biden (and by extension his actions, like those in Gaza), without using qualifiers, and then also complaining about Gaza being brought up.

If people truly want no Gaza discussion here: don't say "Biden isn't racist" and expect no argument. Saying he isn't racist is claiming that you think his choices about Gaza are inherently not affected by race. Take it to the Gaza threads, or learn to use qualifiers like "...for an American president."
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:40 PM on July 1 [14 favorites]

Does that include all the Black voters in the Southern primary states in 2020 who got him the nomination?
...
i’m not even sure what to think of this kind of response, but it doesn’t seem in good faith to me

Yeah, it's good to remember that Biden had one primary victory before the whole party apparatus united behind him (besides the Sanders wing of the party) and the primaries were effectively over. Yes, that one victory was South Carolina, and yes, a little over half of the Democratic voters in that state are Black. But of Black South Carolinians, 78% identify as Democrat as far as their party (7% Republican, 15% independent), but 33% identify as Conservative politically, 41% as moderate, and 16% as Liberal (and 10% as "Don't know," whatever that means). So, that's 74% conservative or moderate - and the white Democrats aren't too different. This is a very specific political landscape that is not broadly representative of really any group nationally - the degree to which people cite Biden's 2020 primary win as though it was decisive has always seemed a bit weird to me.
posted by coffeecat at 8:28 PM on July 1 [3 favorites]

Anyway, seems potentially significant that Jen Psaki, his former Press Sect. tweeted out: "There are a lot of important discussions and debates about this political moment we are in and the path forward, but the notion that the issue at the debate was the prep process done by people like @RonaldKlain and Anita Dunn who have successfully prepped many candidates including Obama, Clinton and Biden is absurd. It was a bad debate. I have no doubt they were tough, strategic and direct. (Believe me I have seen them in action) but prep does not always determine the outcome. Biden was bad. Important convos about what happens next. But if you are directing your ire at “prep” you are not talking about the right things." [Emphasis added]

Who is directing ire at prep? Oh, the Biden family, according to reports. This is one of the more pointed public digs against the Bidens I've seen from someone who used to be in the inner circle.
posted by coffeecat at 8:32 PM on July 1 [7 favorites]

the degree to which people cite Biden's 2020 primary win as though it was decisive has always seemed a bit weird to me

Struck me as kind of a bad idea since 2020 to let the Democratic nominee be decided by older conservative voters in a state (South Carolina) that's not really representative of the demographics and political leanings of the broader national Democratic Party, honestly (and moreover a state that Democrats were never going to win in a general election, anyway).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:51 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]

From Biden’s address today RE the SCOTUS decision:

“This decision today has continued the Court’s attack in recent years on a wide range of long established legal principles in our nation.”

I imagine this will be a key component in the campaign going forward.
posted by darkstar at 9:27 PM on July 1 [2 favorites]

Struck me as kind of a bad idea since 2020 to let the Democratic nominee be decided by older conservative voters in a state (South Carolina) that's not really representative of the demographics and political leanings of the broader national Democratic Party, honestly (and moreover a state that Democrats were never going to win in a general election, anyway).

Yep, North Carolina or Nevada (or Georgia) would have been far far better going forward, but Jim Clyburn isn't from those states, so.
posted by Gadarene at 9:36 PM on July 1 [4 favorites]

Carl Bernstein says multiple sources have told him that this is far from an isolated incident (“where the president has appeared as he did at that horror show”); that it's happened at least 15-20 times in the last year/year-and-a-half, with a marked decline in the last six months. I guess he could be spinning yarns...? Except we've all been seeing it (or, in the case of Biden's conspicuous absence from press conferences and so on, not seeing it) and all the incentives for Democrats and the inner circle is to perpetuate an emperor-has-no-clothes situation. I wish we'd cut the Blue MAGA cult-follower crap and admit to seeing what we're all seeing.

The only thing that would convince me Biden is OK and up to the job is an intense series of interviews and debates where he looks as sharp as he did in 2020 against Trump. But I think we all know that can't happen.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:58 AM on July 2 [5 favorites]

Since I'd like to avoid either, and get a progressive president who will actively work to secure the safety of vulnerable people...

The Biden administration is the most progressive administration since FDR. Someone like Sanders or AOC is never going to get elected in the USA, because of the Electoral College. When you give voters from Wyoming more weight than voters from California it's going to be hard to get even a moderate Democrat elected. Obama was to the right of several conservative global leaders, who all favor universal healthcare and a robust social security system. And who don't run assassination programs abroad.

You are of course entitled to your dreams, and to criticize the President. And in a healthy society, there must be critique of the sitting powers. My worry is that current US politics are not healthy and in that context, the millions of words being spent by theft and liberals on Biden's debate performance are out of proportion compared to the far less energy being spent on the fact that Trump is a convicted criminal and a con-man and a danger to the whole world.

In other facts: Israels reaction after the October 7th attack was foreseeable and almost identical to the US reaction after 9-11. And the global support for Israel was foreseeable and almost identical to the support for the US after 9-11. This is what the global community does when there is a terror attack. Heck, even Iran offered to help the US after 9-11.
I wish things would work differently, but I don't know how to make that change, and clearly no-one in a position of power does either. Since terror attacks are pr definition crimes and also because Hamas doesn't acknowledge Israel's right to exist, there is no space for a peace negotiation. Since Hamas is using the Gaza population as human shields, there is no way to get them out without civilian casualties. And BTW, Hamas knew that Israel would act disproportionally after the terror attack and bet on it. They knew there would Palestinian civilian deaths and went along with it anyway.

Yes, Israel is using excessive force and collective punishment, against the rules of war and human rights, and it is clear that world leaders, including the US administration are trying to make them stop. But it is a fundamental rule that sovereign states are allowed to defend and protect their population against terror and outside aggression. This is the dilemma.

Things are gradually changing now, too late and too slowly, and I think the protests are a factor in that, but it is also a factor that Netanyahu (a convicted felon) is blatantly stepping across every line regarding the rules of war, and using the conflict for his own political and personal gain and people are fed up with him, both in Israel and in the international community.

But I don't understand the American obsession with Joe Biden in relation to the tragedy in Gaza. The Biden administration is doing what every single other Western government is doing: supporting Israel in their fight against Hamas, and at the same time providing aid to Palestinian civilians and criticizing the Israeli government for their crimes, openly as well as diplomatically. Biden can not in any way be held responsible for the acts of the Israeli government or Hamas. Could he do more to end the conflict and help Palestinian civilians? Yes he could, and he should, But he is not responsible for the crimes on both sides.

On the other hand, the stupid Abraham Accords and Trump's ending the Iran deal have both contributed significantly to the current situation, by creating a situation that is intolerable for both Iran and the population of Gaza because there is literally no hope in sight. I believe the Biden administration should have revisited the situation in the Middle East from the first day of hus presidency, and challenged the Netanyahu government more aggressively. But I don't believe he had congressional backing for that.
posted by mumimor at 1:25 AM on July 2 [10 favorites]

That things are structurally set up such that it's seen as politically impossible for the US *not* to continue materially aiding a genocide is restating the leftist critique of the US's position, I'd say. That's kinda the larger problem.

And it explains why the US Left's focus on the US's involvement in materially assisting a genocide. It's where there's the most direct connection & possibility to try and put sand in the gears. If we were sending crates of missiles directly to Hamas so they could engage in their right to self-defense, I'm pretty sure the same
"We're not responsible for what's done with these, we're not going to stop sending more either; but we're sending very stern messages behind the scenes" argument wouldn't fly.

The window's tilted in such a way we're not even talking about what "The US takes up positive action towards its claimed responsibility to prevent genocide" would look like, just "do we help at full speed, slightly less fast, or risk double-speed assistance?"
posted by CrystalDave at 3:22 AM on July 2 [7 favorites]

In other facts: Israels reaction after the October 7th attack was foreseeable and almost identical to the US reaction after 9-11. And the global support for Israel was foreseeable and almost identical to the support for the US after 9-11. This is what the global community does when there is a terror attack. Heck, even Iran offered to help the US after 9-11.

This is genocide apologia. What the fuck.

No, this is not what the global community does when there is a terror attack. Do you know how we know? because there are repeated terror attacks or crimes against the Palestinian population on a daily basis and they are committed with US bombs.


I believe the Biden administration should have revisited the situation in the Middle East from the first day of hus presidency, and challenged the Netanyahu government more aggressively. But I don't believe he had congressional backing for that.

What's possibly worse but definitely more annoying is that you have absolutely no idea how United States foreign policy is conducted.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:53 AM on July 2 [18 favorites]

it is clear that world leaders, including the US administration are trying to make them stop.

No such thing is clear, unless by world leaders you mean countries like South Africa. Australia won't even do anything about the IDF murdering a citizen and laughing in their war crimes telegrams that the IDF condones.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:51 AM on July 2 [11 favorites]

> The Biden administration is the most progressive administration since FDR.

poor LBJ never gets any credit for the great society
posted by dis_integration at 6:10 AM on July 2 [14 favorites]

The Bernstein reporting seems particularly damning - and it sorta confirms many people's suspicions, i.e. that Biden is not always OK, but has generally been able to OK most of the time, and so his aides (either out of their own desire for power or a fear of angering Biden) were just crossing their fingers, hoping it would work out. But it suggests that confidence in Biden was already weak before the debate - I obviously don't have a crystal ball, but as more and more details like this leak out in reporting, I wouldn't be surprised if he did succumb to pressure to step down.
posted by coffeecat at 6:12 AM on July 2 [2 favorites]

A key detail re: Bernstein is that he’s saying this is getting worse, quickly.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:16 AM on July 2 [1 favorite]

The Biden administration is the most progressive administration since FDR.

This is a common talking point, that I'd argue is disingenuous for a couple reasons:

1. The only reason Biden, who ran as a moderate, incorporated any progressive policy into his agenda, was because of how well Bernie did in the 2020 primary. Biden new he needed Sanders/AOC to campaign for him, and needed their voters. So after the primary, they formed a Biden-Sanders Unity Task Force, and it's out of that that the main progressive policies that have come out of the Biden administration came from. I'm not saying Biden doesn't deserve credit for reading the room, he does. But he did this as a survival tactic, not because he wanted to do it.

2. I don't think it makes any sense to judge how "progressive" an administration is separate from its historical context. That's just sloppy methodologically. Relative to Democratic voters as a whole, Biden is not progressive - yes, the Inflation Reduction Act was significant - but so was Obama's overhaul of healthcare, Johnson's Great Society agenda and war on poverty, etc. I don't want to derail, but this line about "most progressive since FDR" seems to rest on a shallow grasp of history.
posted by coffeecat at 6:37 AM on July 2 [11 favorites]

MisantropicPainforest - It would explain why a man who throughout his career was known for his ability and desire to engage with the public on a person to person level has shied away from press appearances like he shares the outright adversarial relationship the last administration had.
posted by Selena777 at 7:22 AM on July 2 [4 favorites]

I kind of wish every discussion of Joe Biden's fitness did not end up being another place where people assert that Biden is uniquely or unusually ill-disposed towards Palestinians (and, hey, it was less than three months ago that "Democrats are insufficiently supportive of Israel" was a reason Biden was unfit, so plus ça change, I guess). America has an extremely shitty attitude, institutionally and culturally, towards the Israel/Palestinian conflict, and while Biden does seem to lack the courage to actually buck that trend, the idea that he individually is a particularly dire President for the welfare of Palestinians is, uh, not supported by evidence. Who has been suggested as an alternative around here? Harris, Newsom, Whitmer, Shapiro, Pritzker? Have any of those people, by word or deed, suggested that they'd make substantive changes in our policy of unqualified support for Israel? If not, then why is Gaza a point where calculating Biden's Value-Over-Replacement-President is a meaningful exercise?

The situation in Gaza is terrible, but if you're going to lay it all on Biden's shoulders, it'd be nice to know who you think would be doing a better job. If your answer is "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez" or "Rashida Tlaib" or "Ilhan Omar", then, good job coming up with notable voices in politics stridently in support of Palestinian autonomy, but none of those people have shown the slightest sign of actually running for President (FWIW, Omar can't as a naturalized citizen, and AOC's on the edge with regard to age eligibility).
posted by jackbishop at 7:28 AM on July 2 [7 favorites]

the idea that he individually is a particularly dire President for the welfare of Palestinians is, uh, not supported by evidence.

You may evaluate candidates based on what you imagine they would do in imaginary scenarios, I like to do it by seeing what they actually do in actual scenarios when actual people are being bombed.

What you are in effect saying is that Biden should not be held accountable for facilitating a genocide because anyone else who could realistically be in his position would do the same thing. Which is 1) unknowable, 2) an actual load of shit, and 3) ignores Biden's hawkish history and 4) postulates that Biden is the most pro-Palestinian person who could possibly be elected and if he moved at all to be more favorable to the Palestinians, he would be unelectable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:53 AM on July 2 [10 favorites]

The situation in Gaza is terrible, but if you're going to lay it all on Biden's shoulders, it'd be nice to know who you think would be doing a better job.

Are we really at the point where the claim is every politician inthe US would circumvent congress to sell weapons to a state engaged in genocide?

Even if that is true (and God damn this country to Hell if it is), it remains on Joe Biden's shoulders because he is the one actually supporting atrocity. right now, in the real world
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:57 AM on July 2 [10 favorites]

Bernie Sanders has repeatedly condemned Netanyahu's war on the people of Gaza.

So in regards to the question "who would do better than Biden?", the answer is the candidate the DNC united behind Biden to keep out of office.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:07 AM on July 2 [9 favorites]

Guys, chill with the "ZOMG you have to vote for him" stuff. Duh.

I'd LITERALLY and I mean literally literally not figuratively literally vote for a cat, or a person in an actual coma, or Biden's corpse being carried around Weekend at Bernie's style over Trump, ok? I am not exaggeratting. I'd actually vote for a completely inanimate object, a statue or a raincoat, over Trump.

The question is not: will I vote for whatever utterly awful candidate the Democrats pick. Y'all won, k? You can stop playing chicken, I surrender. You literally cannot pick a Democratic candidate so awful I won't vote for them over Trump. So, maybe y'all could back down on picking the worst possible people to emphasize my submission to your demands and maybe not grind my face in the muck of my total defeat and capitulation quite so much?

I don't dislike Biden. I hate him. I genuinely, truly, with passion, HATE that motherfucker. And yet, you Biden fans have won so throughly that I'm still voting for him. Is that enough victory over us despicable leftists yet? Or do I need to actually kiss his ass or something before you lay off?

I'm voting for him despite him being a genocidal maniac. I'm voting for him despite the fact that it sends me into despair and self hatred knowing that I'm voting for him. You fucking won, ok?

jackbishop No one things Biden can snap his fingers and end Israel's genocide.

We do think he could stop shipping them weapons so at least I'm not sharing in the collective guilt for every dead Palestinian beause I pay taxes.

mumimor Yes, Israel is using excessive force and collective punishment, against the rules of war and human rights, and it is clear that world leaders, including the US administration are trying to make them stop. But it is a fundamental rule that sovereign states are allowed to defend and protect their population against terror and outside aggression. This is the dilemma.

That's... Horrifying? Disingenuous? Utterly false? Conflating utterly unrelated things?

WTF?

There is no dilemma. "Defense" is not the same as fucking GENOCIDE. You're like someone watching a professional martial artist systemically beat a 90 pound anemic who accidentally bumped him to death and saying "well, he does have a right to self defense".

The idea that any of this is about self defense is so at odds with reality I'm really hard pressed not to see claims that what Israel is doing count as defense as anything but pure malice.

The Biden administration is doing what every single other Western government is doing: supporting Israel in their fight against Hamas

Israel isn't fucking "fighting Hamas", they're carrying out a religiously motivated genocide to steal land. They're systemically murdering babies, blowing up hospitals, and carrying out a genociide. That's not "fighitng Hamas". You cannot possibly be so stupid you really think that's true.

But, fun thought, I did just realize that Biden now, thanks to the Supreme Court decision, no longer has an excuse for his inactivity. He cannot be prosecuted for official acts. Declaring that he will break the law and stop sending Israel weapons is an official act. He can, therefore, unilaterally and personally, stop 100% of all arms shipments to Israel if he watned to.

He doesn't want to.
posted by sotonohito at 8:10 AM on July 2 [28 favorites]

And again, of the many softballs that Biden waffled during the debate was when Trump referred to him as a Palestinian as a slur. Biden couldn't even push back on that - a very low bar.
posted by coffeecat at 8:31 AM on July 2 [3 favorites]

The "Biden Replacement Theory": A Joke That's Not Funny (Stephanie Jones, President @NRJonesFoundatn, attorney, writer, former @USDOT, Deputy Chief of Staff, Hill Chief of Staff, Senate Judiciary Comm. Counsel).
posted by mazola at 8:46 AM on July 2 [2 favorites]

Jake Tapper reports:

Democratic governors held a call yesterday afternoon...Just governors – no staffs – no one from campaign or WH...

On the call Dem. governors expressed concern about what's going on with the president

They know if they come forward publicly with concern that likely will cause Biden to dig in more

They were also surprised none of them had heard from him (!)

This is not the only place I'm seeing the point made that if Biden is actually doing well, why wouldn't he dispel all this malarkey with a press conference or interview? Why hasn't he called Dem governors or senators to reassure them?

“It’s troubling,” a House Democrat said, adding that the White House staff should be transparent — at least in private calls with lawmakers — about whether Biden’s struggles on the debate stage were a one-off or whether they have seen the problem before.

—NBC News
posted by daveliepmann at 8:56 AM on July 2 [2 favorites]

Who can believe whatever Jake Tapper says?

Anyway, I mainly came in to say there is no equivalency between the state of Israel and Hamas. None. Not one iota. I support my government in the opinion that the international community should acknowledge the Palestinian state and thus acknowledge the Palestinian right to self-defence. But Hamas is not the Palestinian state.

I could go on and on about this, and in some ways, I think American leftists would be surprised at how much we agree on. For the record, I'm a supporter of a one-state solution, which for anyone who actually knows what I am talking about puts me solidly on the far left. But my red line goes at legitimizing Hamas, a terrorist organization, and that seems to be hard to handle for some people. Israel was a very bad idea from the outset, I agree with that. But we are in 2024. Israel is a legitimate country. All of the people who are born there and have grown up there have the right to exist. We need to find a solution that protects both Palestinians and Israelis. And Hamas is not ever going to accept such a solution, nor to acknowledge the State of Israel. Is this fucked up? Yes, it is. But that is the challenge we need to deal with.

I agree that the US state department and the US congress are always bad at handling this, and I don't believe they will ever get better at it. Peace in the Middle East has to be negotiated by someone else. Right now, the governments who could find a solution are dealing with their own (often self-inflicted) issues.

But regardless of what Biden says or does, he can't solve this problem. There are two major stakeholders who don't give a shit, and they are the Hamas leadership and Netanyahu. And nothing Biden ever does can change their minds. (And yes, that includes blocking military aid to Israel. Do you guys know anything about Israeli politics?)
posted by mumimor at 9:44 AM on July 2 [6 favorites]

There's a massive difference between "Biden is singlehandely responsible for the genocide in Gaza" and "Biden is partly responsible for the genocide in gaza and could save lives IMMEDIATELY if he withdrew support on Israel".
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:04 AM on July 2 [11 favorites]

Anyway, I mainly came in to say there is no equivalency between the state of Israel and Hamas. None. Not one iota.

I have to agree. Only one is capable of and currently engaged in carrying out genocide.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:12 AM on July 2 [11 favorites]

mumimor No one ever asked you to say Israel and Hamas were equivilent, or that Hamas was a Palestinian state. You're arguing with things that aren't present.

Similarly while there are a handful of people who do seem to imagine Biden could end it tomorrow if he wanted I doubt that's a really common opinion on the left.

What he CAN do is simple: stop sending weapons, or any other "aid", to Israel as long as they genocide continues.

If nothing else at least it would slow things down and force Israel to spend more of their own resources building or buying weapons. Plus there's the bonus that it would no longer directly my fault that Palestinian kids are being murdered.

But the idea that America can simultaneously actively support Israel's genocide and also be kind or whatever ot Palestinians is absurd. Nothing supposedly good America does for Palestinians can possibly outweigh the fact that America is supplying the weapons that are used by the genocidal oppressor.

I have no idea the extent of what Biden could accomplish if he really tried to strongarm Netanyahu. Maybe he could force an end to the genocide. Maybe he'd need to try to gather a coalition. I don't know. But I know he hasn't tried.

And I know that no one with any power is trying to stop it, especially not America.

"Never again" is the filthiest lie ever spoken. No one except a tiny fringe of leftists actually gives a shit about genocide that doens't directly and personally affect them. You'd think someone as cynical and contemptuous of human nature as I am would have figured that out before now, but nope it took the world ignoring Israel carrying out genocide and lifestreaming it before I realized how depraved and awful most people really are.
posted by sotonohito at 10:20 AM on July 2 [6 favorites]

I forgot something: claiming that Israel is illegitimate is exactly equilvalent to saying the US is illegitimate. Every single American of European or Asian descent should be sent "back". I mean, I don't exactly disagree, but at the same time it is absurd. We need to find a solution that both respects the indigenous population and accepts the reality of colonialization, however offending and unfair that might seem. How many of the leftists here on Metafilter would need to be sent back if the US was decolonized? And where is "back"?

I have to agree. Only one is capable of and currently engaged in carrying out genocide.
I agree completely that what the Netanyahu government is doing is wrong and a grotesque overreach and probably could be tried in The International Court of Law if anyone could bring Netanyahu to Hague. The only reason the US leadership under Bush wasn't tried in Hague is that the US doesn't acknowledge international law. I knew this exact thing would happen from our collective experience of the US reaction to 9-11 right away and I can't defend it. I have never attempted to defend it. But there is also no doubt that what Hamas did October 7th was terror. There is no way to legitimize Hamas. It's like people have completely forgotten what started all of this. I haven't.

In my opinion, Hamas' act of terror does not legitimize collective punishment. Just as 9-11 did not legitimize the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. What I'm saying is that this is how international politics work, and that I don't have an alternative procedure to point to. And I don't see anyone here who does. I wish I did. I could use the money from that Nobel Peace thing.
posted by mumimor at 10:35 AM on July 2 [6 favorites]

I forgot something: claiming that Israel is illegitimate is exactly equilvalent to saying the US is illegitimate. Every single American of European or Asian descent should be sent "back".

If you think that is what people mean when they say the US or Israel are illegitimate, I am not surprised you think we are all irrational fanatics.

People living in the US and Israel who were born there and have made lives there should not be deported because of their ancestry. That's ethnic cleansing.

When leftists condemn the US and Israel as illegitimate, we are talking about them as states, not as populations. The political and legal system of both states are intractably racist, colonial, and dominated by capital. They should cease to exist as political entities, and what replaces them must start with acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the displaced and brutalized people they were built on top of.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:46 AM on July 2 [7 favorites]

I wouldn't put that in the exact same words, but I don't really think we disagree on that...
posted by mumimor at 10:48 AM on July 2 [3 favorites]

It's like people have completely forgotten what started all of this.

this isn't in good faith.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:57 AM on July 2 [7 favorites]

What he CAN do is simple: stop sending weapons, or any other "aid", to Israel as long as they genocide continues.

If nothing else at least it would slow things down and force Israel to spend more of their own resources building or buying weapons.

That can also shift Israel to seek weapons elsewhere (fine) changing geopolitical situation (maybe not so fine) and eliminating any influence currently having any impact and supplying aid where we can (not as much influence as we'd like, but 'none' is not a better position).

I don't like any of this but there you are.
posted by mazola at 11:04 AM on July 2 [2 favorites]

Perhaps I am naive, but I think the negotiations over who will replace Biden are well underway and party leaders are staying quiet while they organize the rollout.
posted by snofoam at 11:05 AM on July 2 [4 favorites]

Internal leaked general election poll:

North Carolina- 🔴 Trump +11
Georgia - 🔴 Trump +10%
Arizona - 🔴 Trump +10
Nevada - 🔴 Trump +9
Pennsylvania - 🔴 Trump +7
Michigan - 🔴 Trump +7
Wisconsin - 🔴 Trump +4
New Hampshire - 🔴 Trump +3
Virginia - 🔴 Trump +0.6
New Mexico - 🔴 Trump +0.5%
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:37 AM on July 2 [3 favorites]

"I will support” Vice President Kamala Harris if President Joe Biden “were to step aside,” Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC), Biden-Harris campaign co-chair, told Andrea Mitchell earlier on MSNBC.

The tides are turning quick.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:41 AM on July 2 [3 favorites]

Savior Complex (Fintan O'Toole, New York Review of Books via archive.is)

Biden’s tragedy is that he has come to take on this same conviction, to feel that he alone can save America. In mirroring his archenemy, he has created an equal and opposite belief in his own indispensability. On a rational level, he knows that this does not make sense. In December he responded off the cuff to a reporter’s question about whether he thought another Democrat could defeat Trump: “Probably fifty of them.” Yet he has also boasted in a social media video that “I’m still the only person that ever beat Donald Trump.”

posted by box at 11:46 AM on July 2 [5 favorites]

Not just down in those states, but significantly down since the debate, per leaked polling.
posted by Gadarene at 11:50 AM on July 2 [2 favorites]

As a counter to the "Biden's out of it" messaging, ProPublica has just released unedited footage of an interview with Biden from nine months ago.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:56 AM on July 2 [5 favorites]

It's gross how the Biden team is handling this: throwing skilled advisors like Ron Klain under the bus, calling critics bedwetters, etc. Bernstein's reporting that nights like last Thursday were common over the last 18 months or so means that they've known all along. No wonder Biden hasn't held press conferences or given interviews. I guess the right-wing spin about his competence was right all along.

That internal poll is awful: 2% drop after the debate across the board. It looks like the biggest change from 2016 is that it won't be any surprise when Trump wins, including the popular vote.
posted by netowl at 12:01 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]

There's still another debate isn't there? Assuming Biden doesn't drop out before that: if he's planning to 'win' the next debate but does poorly again, will he still stay in the race despite what's likely to be some pretty strong pressure for him to drop off? Excuses for him being on medication or past his bedtime (really??) don't seem convincing and certainly won't be convincing then...

I'm not from the US so the last time I've seen Biden speak was around or just after the Obama administration. Seeing clips of this debate was quite the shock for me, in terms of his performance. If Trump successfully uses the topic of Biden being unfit to serve at the next debate, I don't know how Biden would come back from that. But again, just a naive outsider opinion.
posted by UN at 12:19 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

The second debate is way, way too late for a replacement. It's after the convention, after this year's weird Ohio deadline pressuring things, probably after a bunch of other deadlines. Whoever arranged for an unusual June date knew what they were doing.

I don't think Biden will last the week. The emperor's clothes can't be re-seen. Pelosi is talking about both candidates taking mental fitness tests, a Texas Dem rep called for Biden to step down as nominee, gruesome poll numbers were leaked, every alternate nominee is polling the same or better, and there's at least one memo floating around the DNC from a Somebody on how to fast-track the process for selecting a replacement. This bird is cooked. We're just waiting to see how it gets carved up.
posted by daveliepmann at 12:28 PM on July 2 [7 favorites]

New CNN poll: (Twitter link)

Trump leads Biden 49/43.
Trump leads Harris 47/45.

—Independents:
Trump leads Biden 44/34.
Harris leads Trump 43/40.

Meanwhile, NYTimes reports that "Representative Lloyd Doggett of Texas, a veteran progressive lawmaker, issued a statement saying that Mr. Biden’s debate performance had disqualified him from running again," making him the first member of Congress to call for Biden to step down.

If I had to bet based on what's been reported, the DNC is making sure that everyone (Congress, top donors, party brass, etc.) will unify around Harris, if only because she's the easiest option for them in terms of the war chest. But yeah, they won't announce that until it's certain.
posted by coffeecat at 12:33 PM on July 2 [6 favorites]

He's not going to drop out. Anyone thinking he will is living in a fantasy land. One does not become President without both ego and a nearly fanatical degree of determination to succeed. Biden has both, whether he's senile or not, and there is no possible way he's going to step aside.

Especially when doing so would validate the right wing narrative against him that he's been fighting for the past 5ish years.

It is pure fantasy to imagine Biden dropping out.

What's more worrying than the two point drop for Biden is that he's so far behind even without that two point drop and has been since before this year. He barely won in 2020 with a +5 lead in the polls.

And while Democrats may be motivated to try to stop Project 2025, hatred of Trump, abortion, and fear of Christofascism remember that longing for all of those things is going to motivate the Republican voters to get out in November.

Everyone can tell this is an election that's going to have outsize results. Not that any change in Presidents is trivial, but we haven't had a threat to the status quo on this scale for decades.

I fucking hate the status quo. But what Trump intends to replace it with is worse.

So we're headed to November with a lot of handicaps. We've got a not so great candidate, the entire EC is structured against us, and our enemies are salivating at the thought of vengence and imposing their anti-freedom anti-family anti-American vision on us by force of arms. I'm not exactly hopeful of a victory.

A huge percentage of people are motivated by personality, and Biden isn't pulling in voters with charisma while Trump is.

And if we DO somehow replace Biden the new candidate will be starting from a disadvantage.
posted by sotonohito at 12:37 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]

I would like to see the post-debate drug tests for both candidates tbh :P
posted by mazola at 12:38 PM on July 2 [3 favorites]

Technically Biden doesn't need to drop out - if the DNC unifies them, the delegates can just give it to Harris whether he likes it or not. From the transcript of the What Next podcast episode I linked to upthread:

"the Democratic Party has, has pledged rather than bound delegates, which it may seem like a distinction without a difference, but...there is a clause in the party’s rules that say you’re supposed to vote for the person that you’re pledged to in good conscience. And the phrase 'in good conscience' is like a loophole large enough to drive a truck through. And I think that it’s in there for this very reason where you have a nominee who has won a majority of the delegates...but that person seems incapable of winning the general election. And so under those circumstances, I think that the party wanted to maintain a little bit of a safety valve in case the nominee really needed to be changed and wouldn’t step aside or had fallen ill."

-David Faris, associate professor of political science at Roosevelt University.
posted by coffeecat at 12:46 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]

And the headline at the top of the NYTimes page right now "Biden’s Lapses Are Increasingly Common, According to Some of Those in the Room."
posted by coffeecat at 12:49 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

The NYT is still helping, as they do.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:03 PM on July 2 [6 favorites]

The NYT is still helping, as they do.

What in the world would you have them rather do?
posted by daveliepmann at 1:10 PM on July 2 [7 favorites]

He barely won in 2020 with a +5 lead in the polls.

No, the final polling averages were from Biden +7.2 to +8.4 depending who was aggregating them. The actual votes were +5. So we're looking at something like a 10 point polling swing from 2020.

I don't think his current campaign strategy of trying to gaslight everyone is viable. Only Republicans have the apparatus to build an alternate reality. I also don't think he's dropping out.
posted by netowl at 1:17 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

I would RATHER they spend more text on why Trump is horrible. But that's not their jam, I get it. (They're a shit paper, that's my opinion, shrug.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:20 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

To those who think he won’t drop out: what do you think the dems will do if the polls continue to show that Biden is going to lose to Trump, and that another candidate (Harris) can win? And if that continues as other dems publicly support Biden stepping down?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:21 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

Can we get Harris looking strong in front of some cameras every day regardless?
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:27 PM on July 2 [13 favorites]

-David Faris, associate professor of political science at Roosevelt University.

!? I would assume that is not the same person who was crunchland and Dave Faris here in that order but please correct me if I am wrong.
posted by y2karl at 1:28 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't that be a ride?
posted by stet at 1:31 PM on July 2

coffeecat I am extremely doubtful that anyone in the DNC, the ultimate group of insiders, will do anything to disrupt the status quo. Even if they were 100% convinced that Biden wold lose I don't think they'd try to oust him as the candidate.

It'd create a huge amount of ill will in addition to threatening their own positions.

MisantropicPainforest I think the DNC, if the circumstancs you predict come to pass, will decide that losing one election is better than disrupting their system.

I think on a deep, emotional, level the elites in the Democratic Party are fundamentally incapable of believing that Trump is really going to do what Project 2025 says he should. The system as they know it has existed since before they were born.

And, furthermore, they're devoted to the idea of the system as a machine that produces the right result. If it didn't that would mean they'd have wasted their lives, and they surely didn't waste thier lives so therefore the machine produces justice.It might falter sometimes, it might take a while, but trust the system. It will inevitably, inexorably, produce justice.

Which, in my view, is pure toxic BS that makes people complicit and lazy. But based on their actions it seems to be what they believe.

Me? I think if Trump wins he's going to kick the machinery apart and in just four years undo the work of generations. I don't think the machinery of state is nearly as durable as they do.
posted by sotonohito at 1:44 PM on July 2 [12 favorites]

Biden is basically living proof that the mainstream democratic party can and will rally together to ensure the candidate they want is on the ballot. As much as this is an unusual and unfortunate situation, I think they will do what they need to do.

I think Harris has to be the nominee. Other scenarios seem like wishful thinking. I think it will happen quickly, before anyone can get too attached to any non-Harris nominee. The meeting with governors might actually just be part of the process to pick Harris's running mate at this point. They have to have their strongest option and a united party ready to go when they flip this switch.
posted by snofoam at 1:47 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]

It's like people have completely forgotten what started all of this

You clearly have? Helpful hint, it wasn't October 7th.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:49 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]

The Biden camp controls the party, and 99% of the delegates are pledged to them. They've already said that the official nomination will happen early due to Ohio. So what I expect to happen is that Biden orders the party to nominate him, they do, and anyone that doesn't like it can pound sand.

I think if Biden goes down in flames like he seems to be doing, there would be a lot more support for primary challenges to a sitting president. There was a feeling that Carter lost partly due to the Kennedy challenge, but Democrats loosing to Trump partly due to having a weak candidate will be a much bigger deal.

I mean, assuming there are primaries. I wonder how exactly countries go from full democracies to defacto autocracies. How did people like Viktor Orbán and Vladimir Putin do it, and what was it like for the people in their countries?
posted by netowl at 2:05 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

With whom will this create a huge amount of ill will? The Biden family? I'm certainly not suggesting that the DNC party brass will act unilaterally - but if they, along with top donors, party leaders in Congress (as well as polling showing most voters don't think he's fit to be president) all come to agreement - well, I'm guessing they'll give him a choice "Announce retirement and do it with dignity, or get the ax in disgrace" - signals of his slipping support are everywhere (Clyburn, Pelosi, Jeffries, etc. - not exactly fringe people).
posted by coffeecat at 2:12 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]

It looks like Puck posted the slide deck from that post-debate poll. It's got some interesting discussion and quite a bit more polling.
posted by netowl at 2:22 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]

I sure wish the polling behind that slide deck bothered to get horserace data for, say, Elizabeth Warren, even if she might not ever have enough party/delegate support for an open convention win.
posted by nobody at 2:54 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

Interesting post-debate polling slides, though not too surprising. Harris doesn't seem to poll quite as well as Buttigieg, Whitmer, or Newsom, but on the favorability slide, everyone already has an opinion of Harris, Biden and Trump, while 40-55% don't have an opinion on the other three. To me, this is a strong indicator that Harris is the only real choice at this point.
posted by snofoam at 2:58 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

DNC:Democracy is at stake! We must do everything we can to defeat Donald Trump!

Okay, let's replace Biden with a better candidate.

DNC:No, you should just donate more.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:00 PM on July 2 [8 favorites]

I am thinking our first military coup may be in the offing if TFG is thevwinner.
posted by y2karl at 3:14 PM on July 2

I don't think we're that lucky.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:17 PM on July 2 [3 favorites]

The internal state-by-state numbers in the slide deck that's being attributed to Open Labs don't match the publicly released numbers from multiple other polling outfits. I'm referring here to polling numbers for the status before the debate (few state-by-state numbers have been released from polls taken after the debate from any source).

Either Open Labs is right and most other people are wrong, or their model is off and they're an outlier.

I don't want to get conspiratorial and suggest that the numbers might be skewed to drive a pre-determined conclusion...but the thought crossed my mind.

(Not advocating pro-Biden here, if you want to make the case that he should be replaced, you can still legitimately do that. But I'd hate for people to stress out and think that Democrats in general are doing this badly. I'm going to wait for more data to come in.)
posted by gimonca at 4:12 PM on July 2 [1 favorite]

The debate between Harris and Trump would be lit. 50/50 she could get him to use a racial or other slur.
posted by Mitheral at 4:17 PM on July 2 [10 favorites]

In the latest explanation for his debate performance, Biden neglects the story about having a cold, and instead says it was his fault for traveling too much, causing him to nearly fall asleep on stage.
posted by mittens at 5:04 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

Who hasn’t been so tired they forget to close their mouth
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:16 PM on July 2 [7 favorites]

jet lag can be terrible, i hear it gets worse when you’ve had six days at camp david to recover
posted by dis_integration at 5:20 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]

It'll of course never happen, but according to a new Ipsos poll:

Michelle Obama: 50%
Donald Trump: 39%

...with nonvoters at the lowest level of all matchups (4%) and third-party and undecided each at 3% or less.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:11 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]

> The Biden administration is the most progressive administration since FDR.

Poor LBJ never gets any credit for the Great Society

True that. I often say and have done so here, that if it were not for the war in Viet Nam, LBJ's face would be on the money, most likely the S100 bill. He would have served two terms, Robert Kennedy Sr. would not have been assassinated and we would have been spared Jr. But if wishes were fishes and we could shoot them in a barrel & etc. All the same, I would put Biden after LBJ after FDR in that order.
posted by y2karl at 6:17 PM on July 2 [8 favorites]

There's been a right-wing conspiracy theory floating around for months that the plan has always been to swap in Michelle Obama at the convention. It's beyond absurd... but man that would be awesome.
posted by netowl at 6:23 PM on July 2 [6 favorites]

I am thinking our first military coup may be in the offing if TFG is thevwinner.

I'm just an outsider, but this feels culturally impossible - for all the regime changes instituted by the political body the military arm has been institutionally averse to this as an American characteristic. Sociopolitically as well -- which isn't the same bent as my first reasoning. Here I'm saying Republican-preferring and the US-as-a-balancing-power-by-offensive-strength personalities abound.
posted by cendawanita at 7:04 PM on July 2 [3 favorites]

“The Codger-in Chief,” Daniel W. Drezner, Drezner’s World, 03 July 2024

“The Great Denial,” Jeff Sharlet, Scenes from a Slow Civil War, 03 July 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:30 PM on July 2 [3 favorites]

y2karl: “I am thinking our first military coup may be in the offing if TFG is thevwinner.”

cendawanita: “I'm just an outsider, but this feels culturally impossible”

“The Origins of the American Military Coup of 2012,” Charles J. Dunlap Jr, Parameters 22, no. 1 (1992)
posted by ob1quixote at 7:36 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

> Michelle Obama is not qualified

what does that even mean. but no she won’t be running
posted by dis_integration at 7:42 PM on July 2 [10 favorites]

Briefly dropping out of lurkage to report Olbermann is now saying (with zero inside info) that he now sees Biden likely dropping out in favor of Harris. He also said earlier that if Biden drops off the ticket then he should also hand POTUS incumbency to Harris asap to improve her chances. I was compelled to note KO's latest specifically because of the tone of my earlier KO post.
posted by zaixfeep at 7:57 PM on July 2 [3 favorites]

Colonel Dunlap's Coup
Non pdf version of The Origins of the American Military Coup of 2012.
slightly more readable
posted by y2karl at 8:01 PM on July 2 [2 favorites]

The debate between Harris and Trump would be lit. 50/50 she could get him to use a racial or other slur.

Getting Trump on camera being horrible would really make the difference... he's been so good at concealing it publicly so far.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:08 PM on July 2 [19 favorites]

“The Origins of the American Military Coup of 2012,” Charles J. Dunlap Jr, Parameters 22, no. 1 (1992

I finally am reading this! But yeah, my comment is actually based on observing the commentaries surrounding what-ifs like this. There's a strong sense of cultural immunization, even for warnings like this. But the second half of my comment relates to this from the opposite direction - the coup will not happen in a Trump rule.

But let me try to express my thoughts from a different angle: we're contemplating the wrong security forces. (I'm looking at your policing institutions - that's missing the cultural immunization and has military-grade arms with no equivalent discipline. Now that's why there won't be a coup - against Trump)
posted by cendawanita at 8:32 PM on July 2 [5 favorites]

The debate between Harris and Trump would be lit. 50/50 she could get him to use a racial or other slur.

He turned "Palestinian" into a slur and no one called him on it, so I don't think they would do the trick.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:07 PM on July 2 [8 favorites]

Trump can literally do ANYTHING (redacted) and get away with it. Literally nothing does the trick, including if he called Harris an n-word on national television to her face.

I seriously think a deal with the devil has been made somewhere at this point, with the sheer level of karma Houdini going on. The amount this man gets away with is unreal.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:44 PM on July 2 [4 favorites]

ob1quixote: Thank you for your link to Sharlet's blog. I was unfamiliar with their work and that post is the first time I have seen a political writer describe the times we are living through in a way that feels grounded in reality.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 3:50 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

I seriously think a deal with the devil has been made somewhere at this point, with the sheer level of karma Houdini going on. The amount this man gets away with is unreal.

I think there might be an argument to be made that he somehow stole Roy Cohn's devil contract in 1986, the year Cohn was finally disbarred and died of AIDS. Something about repairing his narcissistic injury after the devil refused to enter contract negotiations with him directly. And his weird habit of flushing papers down toilet bowls is a superstition to ensure none of his children can ever pull the same trick on him.
posted by nobody at 4:29 AM on July 3 [5 favorites]

The Manwich Horror, if you like what you see in Sharlet's blog, it's definitely worth picking up his book The Undertow, which is one of the scariest things I've ever read. It feels like some kind of postapocalyptic horror novel, except it's just Sharlet describing the people he talks to, the churches he visits, the flags and other emblems he sees deployed all around.
posted by mittens at 4:58 AM on July 3 [7 favorites]

"With Biden’s odds of winning looking longer by the minute, organizations like Heritage are pledging litigation to make replacing Biden close to impossible. They suggested they — or their allies — would challenge efforts to replace Biden on the ballot, which would already be difficult given the timing." Inside the GOP Effort to Make Sure Biden Is the Democratic Nominee.
posted by mittens at 6:34 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

All the information we have now almost guarantees that Trump wins if Biden stays in the race.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:08 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

cendawanita: “I'm looking at your policing institutions - that's missing the cultural immunization and has military-grade arms with no equivalent discipline. Now that's why there won't be a coup - against Trump”

I think this is correct. To the extent that "The Government" exists in the United States — the kind of "The Government" people complain about — it doesn't come from Washington, D.C. or military bases. It comes from the local violence workers who, because they are violent bullies, support the candidate who talks about letting them be even more violent bigger bullies.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:17 AM on July 3 [8 favorites]

NYTimes now reporting that "a key ally [says] that [Biden] knows he may not be able to salvage his candidacy if he cannot convince the public in the coming days that he is up for the job after a disastrous debate performance last week." I'll admit, I'm relieved to hear that even if it's clear he still wants to run, he's not completely delusional.
posted by coffeecat at 7:54 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

(link)
posted by box at 8:05 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]

That's huge. You can't put that genie back in the bottle.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:20 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]

“That claim is absolutely false. If the New York Times had provided us with more than 7 minutes to comment we would have told them so,” says Andrew Bates, White House senior deputy press secretary. [via Steve Herman; @w7voa]
posted by mazola at 8:20 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]

Aside: this is the chaotic shit that authoritarians/TFG thrives on.
posted by mazola at 8:22 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]

Aside: this is the chaotic shit that authoritarians/TFG thrives on.

It would be nice if we weren't put into a chaotic situation by the Biden camp's refusal to forthright about this months ago.

Now that we are in that situation, pretending we aren't because of some affinity for "chaos" on Trump's part isn't a viable option.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:26 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]

“He knows if he has two more events like that, we’re in a different place”

Bargaining phase.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:29 AM on July 3 [7 favorites]

> “That claim is absolutely false. If the New York Times had provided us with more than 7 minutes to comment we would have told them so,” says Andrew Bates, White House senior deputy press secretary. [via Steve Herman; @w7voa]

The comms dept is in a pretty wild position here. If you admit that he's thinking of dropping out, then it's over, that's basically actually dropping out. There's no middle ground. Either the President is ready and able to continue being President (get re-elected), or he's not, and should resign immediately
posted by dis_integration at 8:29 AM on July 3 [8 favorites]

Not pretending or even saying the chaos isn't warranted. But truth is always slow to come out. It's never been more important to evaluate sources and see who's on the record. The chaos is real, brace yourself.
posted by mazola at 8:30 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]

Is it crazy to hope that Friday's interview is a shitshow? So that we can start moving past Biden.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:32 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

At this stage, I'd say one of the least credible sources is anyone involved in official White House communications.

As for the Friday interview- on Friday we are only promised clips, the full interview will air Sunday. It will be taped and edited, and there seems no reason to think it will be hard hitting. I don't think he has any live unscripted events coming up. I imagine the conversation with Democratic governors tonight will be more important.
posted by coffeecat at 8:36 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

President Joe Biden has privately acknowledged that the next stretch of days are critical to whether he can save his re-election bid for president, making clear to an ally Tuesday that he understands what would prompt him to accept: “It’s just not working.”

(CNN)
posted by box at 8:44 AM on July 3

From the Reuters/Ipsos poll that Rhaomi linked upthread, the various Democrat-Trump matchups polled as follows:

Biden 40%, Trump 40%
Michelle Obama 50%, Trump 39%
Kamala Harris 42%, Trump 43%
Gov. Gavin Newsom (D-CA) 39%, Trump 42%
Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D-MI) 36%, Trump 41%
Gov. Andy Beshear (D-KY) 36%, Trump 40%
posted by darkstar at 8:47 AM on July 3

President Joe Biden has privately acknowledged that the next stretch of days are critical to whether he can save his re-election bid for president, making clear to an ally Tuesday that he understands what would prompt him to accept: “It’s just not working.”

Have they tried having Biden watch the debate?
posted by snofoam at 9:02 AM on July 3 [10 favorites]

Mohammad Alsaafin: Maybe more questions should’ve been asked about Joe Biden’s cognitive abilities when he kept saying he saw nonexistent photos of beheaded babies.
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on July 3 [8 favorites]

Oh my god, y'all...

The media is LOVING this bullshit, and they're going to continue to drag it out for as long as they can, to get more clicks and sell more ads, and because the Trump presidency was a GOLD MINE for them. Dean's "Scream", Hillary's "But Her Emails" and Gore's "He's just not relatable" concern trolling were all, in large part, media-driven motifs.

The Trumpers are LOVING this, because every time a Democrat spends another day to express concerns or call for Biden's withdrawal, the Democrats are doing the Devil's work and amplifying the MAGAts own messaging.

And some on the Far Left are, if not LOVING this, then definitely experiencing some schadenfreude, because although they don't want Trump to win, they really hate Biden, too. So seeing him being questioned even by centrist members of his party is a validation of their long-standing loathing.

There is no unicorn candidate out there that will magically hold together the coalition that Biden has built. No, Whitmer isn't going to ride in on a white horse in August to save us. Although Biden wasn't my first choice -- hell, I preferred either Warren or Sanders in 2020 -- Biden is our candidate and I'm on board. I'm not going to let a bad debate performance make me amplify the fears that we all reasonably have about November.

But if we're not careful, we're going to mess around and lose this election, and it won't be because Biden is old. It'll be because, once again, we inadvertently played right into the age-old script of fear and internecine bickering that seems to let the billionaires and bigots and fascists win, again and again.

Honestly, folks, when you see the way the billionaire-owed media is amplifying the chaos out of all proportion, maybe it's time to ask:

"Am I being played again?"
posted by darkstar at 9:29 AM on July 3 [18 favorites]

Larry Sabato: Michigan and Minnesota move to more competitive categories in our ratings. This is the second time in less than a month that we’ve downgraded Democrats in our Electoral College ratings.
posted by box at 9:30 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]

Harris has now significantly overtaken Biden on multiple prediction markets (PredictIt, Manifold, ElectionBettingOdds)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:37 AM on July 3 [1 favorite]

What about Pete Buttigieg?
posted by Clustercuss at 9:42 AM on July 3

I mean, what about Pete Buttigieg.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:44 AM on July 3 [7 favorites]

Did you ever really, really think about Pete Buttigieg?
posted by box at 9:46 AM on July 3 [6 favorites]

But if we're not careful, we're going to mess around and lose this election, and it won't be because Biden is old. It'll be because, once again, we inadvertently played right into the age-old script of fear and internecine bickering that seems to let the billionaires and bigots and fascists win, again and again.

Biden being old is not his only problem as a candidate, but it is a real one. If Joe Biden loses this election (and I think that is still more likely than getting a better candidate, and vastly more likely than him winning) then the fault will absolutely lay with Biden, and with those who used their power to put him in office when there were already people warning them of this exact outcome.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:48 AM on July 3 [8 favorites]

But if we're not careful, we're going to mess around and lose this election, and it won't be because Biden is old.

The 'we' in this statement is...fuzzy, to say the least. We're not the media. Our concerns are not driving media coverage. The election will be decided by a statistically tiny number of under-informed Americans who bother to show up to the polls, and our panicked discussions here have no impact on them. They may decide based on headlines of news stories they do not read; on right-wing scaremongering on the TV in their doctor's office; on some weird gestalt of troops-and-flags-and-eagles on AI-generated FB memes. They will not be deciding based on concerns raised by left-of-center people on the internet.
posted by mittens at 9:59 AM on July 3 [7 favorites]

But if we're not careful, we're going to mess around and lose this election, and it won't be because Biden is old.

No if the dems lose the election its because they ran Biden, a senile genocidaire.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:10 AM on July 3 [9 favorites]

No if the dems lose the election its because they ran Biden, a senile genocidaire.

y'know, you've made your point. We get it. Maybe you could let a moment pass without venting your visceral loathing for Joe Biden.
posted by multics at 10:14 AM on July 3 [9 favorites]

y'know, you've made your point. We get it. Maybe you could let a moment pass without venting your visceral loathing for Joe Biden.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly.
posted by sundrop at 10:19 AM on July 3 [6 favorites]

darkstar, if you really think this is all media manufactured, I guess there is probably nothing I can tell you. But I know a lot of people who watched the debate, and we all shared a similar experience - before consuming any media about the debate, we all sent and/or received texts from family/friends that basically boiled down to "Shit!" No doubt this includes many people in the media, and this is shaping their coverage. But the fact is, Biden was losing to Trump before the debate - it's not just that he bombed it, it's that he also needed to clearly win it.

Yes, there is a contingent of Biden fans in the rank and file who are still enthusiastically in support of Biden. But here's the thing - if Biden is mature about the situation, he can hand it off to Harris giving her full support, and he can continue to campaign for her. The overlap in a Venn Diagram between Biden diehards and people whose main political mantra is "Vote Blue No Matter Who" is pretty significant, I'd imagine. She's by no means guaranteed to win, but she certainly will do a much better job stabbing back at Trump on the debate stage, she'll energize a lot of the base, and if the Dems are smart they'll make a strategic VP pick.
posted by coffeecat at 10:20 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

What the hell else is there to say, when people are intent on blaming other Mefites for Biden losing, due to not performing deference in this thread?

Seriously - some people would not be happy until every mefite took a pledge to never badmouth Biden in public, no matter how many arms sales to Israel he forces through.
posted by sagc at 10:20 AM on July 3 [10 favorites]

Ben Collins: "The Bernie Bros and K-Hive appear to be forming an alliance," I say at the 4th of July cookout. An anvil falls out of the sky directly onto my person, killing me instantly. God appears through the clouds. "I did that," he says. Family and friends applaud politely.
posted by mittens at 10:21 AM on July 3 [5 favorites]

No if the dems lose the election its because they ran Biden, a senile genocidaire

You really need new material.
posted by azpenguin at 10:25 AM on July 3 [6 favorites]

If they do a good job of picking Kamala's running mate, she should have a shot. (Probably some popular white dude, hopefully center left?, but I think that's ok.) That's what I'm going with.
posted by Glinn at 10:27 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]

Let’s run Harris this year. If Biden can show that he’s still got it together over the next few years, he can run again in ‘28.
posted by snofoam at 10:31 AM on July 3 [9 favorites]

If Biden retires now, then the democrats get the first woman president. I feel like that would be exciting to some people. Like me.
posted by snofoam at 10:36 AM on July 3 [14 favorites]

y'know, you've made your point. We get it. Maybe you could let a moment pass without venting your visceral loathing for Joe Biden.

Apparently it hasn't, given the continued claims that this is all some psyop and everyone who objects to having a senile war criminal as a leader is a dupe.

You really need new material.

I'm sorry you're tired of hearing about the war crimes the president is abetting. Imagine how much more tired you be after spending eight months being shelled.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:38 AM on July 3 [7 favorites]

I feel like that would be exciting to some people.

Yeah, I know at least two women who voted for Bernie in the 2016 primaries, and went on to wear suffragette white on Election Day. There is definitely a faction of people who would be happy to see a woman get elected president even if she's not their dream candidate.
posted by coffeecat at 10:48 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

Elena Schneider: "President Biden on campaign call that just wrapped, per person on the call: 'Let me say this as clearly as I possibly can as simply and straightforward as I can: I am running…no one’s pushing me out. I’m not leaving. I’m in this race to the end and we’re going to win.'"
posted by mittens at 10:55 AM on July 3 [3 favorites]

Oh, Jesus.
posted by Gadarene at 10:57 AM on July 3 [6 favorites]

Adam Serwer, the Atlantic: "Biden Must Resign" (MSN link, no paywall).

Joe Biden must resign the presidency. The last person to do so was Richard Nixon, who left in disgrace after abusing the powers of his office. Nixon had to resign because he led an assault on American democracy. Biden must resign for the opposite reason: to give American democracy its best chance of surviving.

The American right has spent every day since Biden was nominated in 2020 presenting him as an incompetent, doddering old fool, incapable of discharging the responsibilities of the office. Biden’s task at the first presidential debate, on Thursday, was to dismiss those allegations as mere smears, as he did in 2020. Instead, he confirmed that he has aged dramatically over the past four years. Biden was very old to begin with, and at the debate he appeared far more visibly diminished than he has in the past.

Subsequent reporting has confirmed that Biden’s condition is worse than Democrats had been willing to publicly admit. Yesterday, The New York Times reported that “in the weeks and months before President Biden’s politically devastating performance on the debate stage in Atlanta, several current and former officials and others who encountered him behind closed doors noticed that he increasingly appeared confused or listless, or would lose the thread of conversations.” Similar claims have been reported elsewhere.

Now perhaps it really was just a bad night, and Biden remains as sharp as he was in 2020. If that’s the case, then he should be able to make the kind of public appearances necessary to quell these complaints. If he proves himself capable of doing so, I’ll happily acknowledge error. But after a week of disastrous coverage about his mental fitness, he has not. That is unavoidably ominous.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:05 AM on July 3 [5 favorites]

Surely he remembers the last many months of Feinstein in the Senate.
posted by Glinn at 11:07 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]

With the disclaimer that I think my ex-Prime Minister, who is at the moment actively outliving Kissinger, was merely an authoritarian leader of a country a tenth the population size of the US, for a combined total of just about a quarter of a century -- someone reminded me that when he was 81 he was busy picking fights with a successor, led me to look up old clips, and here's he with Mehdi Hasan about 8 years ago picking fights with another successor... Which made him just over 90 years old. If you guys need a comparison of cognitive states.

(This is not me handing it to the guy. He's just an incredibly old and spry man.)
posted by cendawanita at 11:11 AM on July 3 [2 favorites]

Hoping we can tempt Elon, Zuck and Bezos to hop on the next flight out?

At last a moment we can reach an iota of consensus. This place has become so awful of late. It is the worst I have seen and I have seen really awful in times past. Plus Autocorrect needs to be taken out back and shot in the head and stuffed in a woodchipper.
posted by y2karl at 11:33 AM on July 3

There is definitely a faction of people who would be happy to see a woman get elected president even if she's not their dream candidate.

Indeed. Though I was actually saying that if he steps down now (not just from the campaign), we will already have a woman president, even before the election.
posted by snofoam at 11:41 AM on July 3 [5 favorites]

.....aaaand here come the poll swings.

remember, this hasn't been hammered into the brains of people for long. it will stick, and get worse.

have a plan B, Dems, or we are all fucked.
posted by lalochezia at 11:50 AM on July 3 [4 favorites]

I think White House staff are just sticking to this messaging so Joe gets to man the grill for one last 4th of July barbecue. He deserves that much. After that we can work on a way to win the election.
posted by snofoam at 12:24 PM on July 3

Surely he remembers the last many months of Feinstein in the Senate.
posted by Glinn at 11:07 AM on July 3 [+] [⚑]

Seems plausible he doesn't
posted by kensington314 at 12:31 PM on July 3 [8 favorites]

NYT: “ Mr. Trump now leads Mr. Biden 49 percent to 43 percent among likely voters nationally, a three-point swing toward the Republican from just a week earlier, before the debate. It is the largest lead Mr. Trump has recorded in a Times/Siena poll since 2015. Mr. Trump leads by even more among registered voters, 49 percent to 41 percent”
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:42 PM on July 3 [3 favorites]

By fall whoever is on the ticket needs to be leading by 5-10% in most polls, which is what it took Joe Biden to win by 4% and with about two states worth of Electoral College wiggle room in 2020.
posted by kensington314 at 12:48 PM on July 3 [1 favorite]

for the good of the country, biden should drop out of the race

for the good of the country, trump should drop out of the race

but instead, we have two people who are putting their personal goals ahead of the country's well-being

we all know how trump has betrayed the trust of the american people - now, by hiding biden's incapacity for months, biden and his team are betraying the trust of the american people

basically a good part of the political establishment is lying to the people
posted by pyramid termite at 1:03 PM on July 3 [9 favorites]

Job Opportunity: The Joe Biden for President Campaign seeks a Social Media Platforms Strategist to write daily content for VP Kamala Harris and expand the Vice President’s voice online.
posted by box at 1:10 PM on July 3 [1 favorite]

New WSJ post-debate poll (1500 RV, +\-2.5% MOE):

Trump: 48%
Biden: 42%

That's a 6-point lead (both with and without third-party candidates)

80% think Biden is too old to run, including 76% of Democrats. Two-thirds of Dems want him replaced on the ticket.

34% favorable rating, sub-40% on all major issues.
posted by Rhaomi at 1:13 PM on July 3 [1 favorite]

I find the White House complaining that the NYT didn't give them enough time to respond darkly humorous.

When exactly did Biden have his last press conference? From the moment he was elected he's been one of the least visible Presidents in, well, ever. He has had fewer press conferences than TRUMP.

You know what would reassure people? Biden having weekly, or even daily, pressers in which he appears competent, alert, and capable of actually answering questions instead of just reading a speech off a teleprompter.

If they aren't afraid he's senile then why the fuck are they hiding him from the public? Why is he hiding even more than Trump did?
posted by sotonohito at 1:33 PM on July 3 [6 favorites]

Harris/Dukakis '24
posted by lukemeister at 1:36 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]

given the continued claims that this is all some psyop and everyone who objects to having a senile war criminal as a leader is a dupe.

Absolutely not what I’m saying. I didn’t like Biden’s debate performance either. But disaggregating the reasonable concerns expressed by his supporters from the wall-to-wall media amplification of doom and gloom, is worthwhile.

As is disaggregating the arguments from folks who think Biden has been a good president but are concerned with his debate performance, from those who actually hate the guy and are using this as an opportunity to sharpen their knives.

But neither of these discussion outcomes is something this thread discussion is really able to manage.

It looks like Trump is getting about a 4-point bounce from the debate. Again, Romney had a 4-point bounce after his first debate with Obama. The media narrative, echoed by many on the Left, was that Obama just wasn’t ready for prime time, too young and inexperienced, and he couldn’t get elected due to his race/ethnicity. It was only because folks — including those that were concerned about Obama’s debate performance — continued to support him, despite their concerns — that we didn’t get President Romney.

Anyway, I’m not sure continued discussion in this thread is actually accomplishing anything except pissing off some people, so I’ll respectfully move on. Peace. :)
posted by darkstar at 2:48 PM on July 3 [3 favorites]

Framing it as “poor debate performance” is misleading. Biden revealed information about his health, fitness for office, and mental capacity with that debate. It’s one thing to be out debated. It’s other thing to do what Biden did. It’s not “how does Biden recover from a bad debate”? It’s “there’s some very real concerns that need to be addressed”
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:53 PM on July 3 [8 favorites]

“He knows if he has two more events like that, we’re in a different place”

Bargaining phase.

Jesus. I think “two more” might be the worst thing you could say because if you said “three more” nobody would think you’re serious.
posted by atoxyl at 2:54 PM on July 3 [1 favorite]

darkstar: "It looks like Trump is getting about a 4-point bounce from the debate. Again, Romney had a 4-point bounce after his first debate with Obama. The media narrative, echoed by many on the Left, was that Obama just wasn’t ready for prime time, too young and inexperienced, and he couldn’t get elected due to his race/ethnicity. It was only because folks — including those that were concerned about Obama’s debate performance — continued to support him, despite their concerns — that we didn’t get President Romney."

Obama's job approval was in the mid-high 40s and he'd been leading Romney the whole time, including by 3-4% prior to the debate. I also recall the criticism being more "he was aloof/disengaged" than that he was not ready for prime time, not least because he'd already been president for four years.

Meanwhile, Biden's approval has consistently been a good 10 points below Obama's, he's been narrowly trailing Trump both nationally and in the swing states for nearly a year, and the criticism is not "he debated badly" but rather "he's no longer mentally or physically capable of successfully campaigning against Trump, let alone being president for four more years."
posted by Rhaomi at 3:01 PM on July 3 [5 favorites]

The media narrative, echoed by many on the Left, was that Obama just wasn’t ready for prime time, too young and inexperienced, and he couldn’t get elected due to his race/ethnicity. It was only because folks — including those that were concerned about Obama’s debate performance, continued to support him, despite their concerns — that we didn’t get President Romney.

I don't remember it happening this way - Obama was already president for four years when he ran against Romney, I don't think people were questioning his experience or electability at that point. The concern was that Obama seemed too passive (e.g., this NYTimes analysis suggested he was too "flat"), which was a very easily fixable problem - Obama is famous for being a skilled orator, and so the notion that he would be able to fix that problem was quite plausible, and in the end it happened. Further, Obama was still in a strong position in the polls (e.g., "While Obama remains favourite to secure re-election on 6 November, Romney may at least have stopped his gradual downward slide" from this Guardian article). I don't remember there being any media push to replace Obama as a candidate at the time, though it's possible I missed it.

On the other hand, Biden is behind in the polls, and getting more behind, and by now has had a few opportunities to fight this particular problem of voter perception of his age being a problem and he keeps failing to do so (e.g., he gave a press conference after the reports of the special counsel finding him to be in cognitive decline to demonstrate his sharpness, and in the middle of it confused Egypt and Mexico). This seems a lot more dire.
posted by nightcoast at 3:05 PM on July 3 [10 favorites]

RE: media amplification, there’s some truth to the idea that there’s a self-fulfilling prophecy here. The more this is talked about the more insurmountable a problem it will be. On the other hand of course it’s a media problem, of course it’s an image problem. That was Biden’s job at the debate, to get out there and make sure viewers and opinion columnists would spend the week talking about how bad the other guy looked, which shouldn’t have been too high a bar given the other guy. He needed to do that because he was already behind in the polls, just narrowly. But it’s exactly what he didn’t manage to do.
posted by atoxyl at 3:10 PM on July 3 [4 favorites]

(Good points about the media framing around the Obama-Romney first debate. I was conflating those concerns with the concerns expressed during his first run. I stand corrected. Carry on.)
posted by darkstar at 3:12 PM on July 3 [3 favorites]

Complain about the refs all you want but it’s probably not going to win you the game.
posted by atoxyl at 3:13 PM on July 3 [4 favorites]

Anyway, darkstar, Nate Cohn over at the NYTimes somewhat agrees with you in his latest analysis. The TL:DR is that yes, the polling numbers for Biden post-debate are about what you'd expect for the person who loses a debate - pretty normal stuff. As he puts it, it's more that the debate was the final nail in the coffin (no pun intended):

These modest shifts after a debate aren’t necessarily significant in the grand scheme of things. It’s certainly not a “fundamental” change. What is fundamental is a 15- or 30-point shift over four years. While Mr. Biden sometimes performs better than he did last week, the long-term trend suggests that the accumulated effect of countless interviews, speeches, photographs and social media posts has left much of the public with the impression that he is no longer as well equipped to serve as president.

Pairing this with the earlier reporting by Carl Bernstein that Biden has been having similar moments (mainly in private or private events) causing concern for the past 18 months, especially in the last 6 months - well, of course it's a media story, because a) voters are genuinely interested - no click bait headlines required and b) it's becoming pretty clear that a lot of concerned upper-level Democrats are leaking drips and drops to the press because they hope it will get Biden to drop out. If there was actually a united front around Biden, the media wouldn't have much of a story.

In other news:

-Democratic US Rep. Raúl Grijalva (D-AZ) becomes the second House Democrat to ask Joe Biden to withdraw from the presidential race.

-Politico reports that some DNC delegates are calling for Biden to step down.
posted by coffeecat at 3:20 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]

I completely agree, darkstar, that the media has incentives that are not at all aligned with people making reasoned decisions about politics, and that totally part of how we ended up with Trump in the first place was from how the media just fed and fed on his entertaining brand of fascism, and on our fears about him, or on our neurotic worry about various candidates' ability to defeat him.

It's always hard to tell what's going on behind closed doors, but this may be one of those rare but important cases where the media has actually done a great public service. One of the double-edged strengths of the Democratic party in recent years has been the intense discipline it has shown around party unity (Manchin and Sinema notwithstanding, or rather, no longer standing with), for example during everything that happened in the House around the McCarthy and Johnson. In fact, that might be part of why people were comfortable with Biden's age - it was understood that to some extent, he simply represented the party as a whole, which seemed to be mostly working internally (at least in the eyes of many Democratic voters).

But I think Gaza made it harder for many people on the left to ignore the fact that the president is in fact a specific person who has to make moral decisions, communicate with the public, and just generally lead. And then the debate came along, and suddenly all of the nightmare feelings from the last year about Biden's age came to life in the worst way. And yet, in the immediate response, the party was still very disciplined, and it was only the traditional Dem media, like the NYTimes and MSNBC, who seemed to be saying - nope, it's over, we can't go on like this. And it really seemed like more than just reporting feeding on readers' anxieties, it was like an active push with a wall of op-eds saying "we are telling you our readers, that even we don't buy this any more, this needs to stop."

Which makes me wonder - if that hadn't happened, would we be seeing what seems to be the tide turning against Biden? I mean, it's possible this is all stage-managed, but the dissonance between the party and the media in the initial days seems surprising. And when I say they did a great service, that's my own opinion coming through - I know none of the likely alternatives are polling much better than Biden, but I really think there's a lot of room for growth for any Democratic candidate, given how well the party did in 2022, and how well the party's senate candidates are doing in swing states, and I think any of them could build on it.

(Also, the NYTimes tells us that now Reed Hastings, former Netflix CEO and Dem megadonor, is calling for Biden to step down, just days after he was forcefully defending him. It also "helpfully" links to another NYTimes article about how Hastings likes skiing. OK, maybe I should make clear I'm celebrating the center-left media here relative to the plutocratic hellscape that we're currently inhabiting. Little victories, etc.)
posted by nightcoast at 4:04 PM on July 3 [7 favorites]

So, I know Biden will never resign. He will never, ever log off, and we can forget it.

But if he did, I have a hard time imagining it as anything other than a net positive; I believe absolutely that nearly every Biden voter would switch to Kamala Harris, and possibly every Biden voter would. I don't think the democratic party has anything to lose if Biden should resign. And certainly some people who are currently planning to sit the election out would vote for Harris. I know I would feel more comfortable with Harris in office than Biden, and I don't even like her. I just would like someone who knows what fucking room she's in most of the time to be president. It's a low bar, but that's where we are.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:16 PM on July 3 [4 favorites]

The 2022 election here in Wisconsin does make me think the Midwest at least has not moved past its basic backlash to Obama racism enough to make a Harris candidacy any less of toss up just as a Biden one. Mandela Barnes lost the 2022 race to the execrable Johnson at the same time as Evers won the governors race, meaning there was a bizarrely big tranche of voters who marked down Evers but then marked down the madman Ron Johnson instead of Barnes. That's absolute madness. Maybe it was the melted brain idea that they had to "balance" out their Dem vote with a GOP one, but I've lived long enough in Wisconsin now to learn how racist your average white guy can be here, hiding Alabama in a Union disguise.
posted by dis_integration at 5:11 PM on July 3 [2 favorites]

Live footage from the governor's meeting - "Joe Biden’s had our back. Now it’s time to have his."

posted by lalochezia at 6:28 PM on July 3

“Checking In: HOW WE ALL DOING?” Rebecca Schoenkopf, The Wonkette, 03 July 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:15 PM on July 3 [3 favorites]

Complain about the refs all you want but it’s probably not going to win you the game.

I don't know - from where I'm sitting, that strategy has worked gangbusters for the Right.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:42 PM on July 3 [7 favorites]

Somebody let me know when the 20,000 Minute Hate is over.
posted by y2karl at 7:56 PM on July 3 [1 favorite]

I don't know - from where I'm sitting, that strategy has worked gangbusters for the Right.

You know what, fair enough, but I’m not sure I’m looking forward to the version of American politics where both parties fully lean into the persecution complex.
posted by atoxyl at 8:06 PM on July 3 [3 favorites]

If I don't seem like myself tomorrow, it's because I overheard two well-meaning lefties elsewhere discussing how "we MUST draft Michelle Obama and not take no for an answer, for the good of the country," and in response I whacked my head into my toaster until I left dents in it.

A good night's rest will help somewhat.
posted by delfin at 8:58 PM on July 3 [6 favorites]

Somebody let me know when the 20,000 Minute Hate is over.

You mean when people stop discussing the topic of the FPP? If you don't want to read people responding to Biden's catastrophic performance in the last debate, it might be best not to read the comments in the thread about the debate.

Seriously, if it is upsetting you, it can be a good idea to take a break. The election doesn't turn on who has the pithiest response on a blog,
posted by The Manwich Horror at 10:00 PM on July 3 [8 favorites]

"we MUST draft Michelle Obama and not take no for an answer, for the good of the country,"

Look, we're gonna throw curveballs, why bother with a pedestrian name like Michelle. Go recruit the Queen herself.
posted by pwnguin at 12:24 AM on July 4

bey/tay unity ticket
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:48 AM on July 4 [11 favorites]

The election doesn't turn on who has the pithiest response on a blog,

sez u
posted by lalochezia at 5:03 AM on July 4 [7 favorites]

Regarding "popularity" polls, the approval/disapproval ratio went underwater for Biden in early fall 2021, when the US pulled out of Afghanistan. It's been flat every since.

Approval/disapproval numbers are not exactly the same as campaign polling, of course. People might disapprove of someone but vote for them anyway (or vice versa).
posted by gimonca at 6:34 AM on July 4 [1 favorite]

As much as I understand the concerns of entrusting power to someone who is in the process of aging and decline, I am still flabbergasted that for many (not you MeFi obv), this is apparently an acceptable alternative.

I happened across that bit of history searching for something else, and of course it's something we all know and still mention as a throwaway remark/footnote, but I couldn't believe just how batshit the actual press conference was. And how much gibberish was/is spewed with gusto and just shrugged off and accepted. Like, it's even worse with hindsight. And realizing he just does this on the regular. And it's just 'his thing'.

Biden's problem might be of a mind in decline, but at least it's a serious, mentally-stable mind in decline.

It is so dispiriting seeing the different standards between parties. *sigh*
posted by mazola at 9:29 AM on July 4 [7 favorites]

This man responded to the public’s concerns with “8:00 curfew.”
posted by Selena777 at 12:04 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

If you read the debate transcript, it shows Biden's memory and cognition to be just dandy. read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html

TRUMP .. getting out of Afghanistan, .. He got out, it was the most embarrassing day in the history of our country’s life. The former guy knows no history and forgets March 29, 1973, The-fall-of-South-Vietnam
posted by theora55 at 12:14 PM on July 4 [1 favorite]

If you read the debate transcript, it shows Biden's memory and cognition to be just dandy.

Really? So we finally beat Medicare?

I won't even get into his abortion answer.
posted by Gadarene at 12:32 PM on July 4 [9 favorites]

What you have to understand about Trump is that his people feel like they're in on the joke. When he spouts nonsense, they think it's great; they don't question his facts, figures, or grammar, because they don't give a shit if what he's saying is true or even makes sense so long as he wins. They are, ever, Darryl, Socrates' friend.

That is not the relationship most Biden people have with Joe Biden. To most of us, I think Biden is the guy working the phone at a utility company who we hope is having a good day when we need help sorting out whatever the fuck is going on with our bill. We don't really want to call him at all.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:36 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

If you read the debate transcript, it shows Biden's memory and cognition to be just dandy. read-biden-trump-debate-rush-transcript/index.html

I know everyone 'saw what they saw' but if you rewatch the debate (I know, I know, nobody will ever do that) Biden stumbled and mumbled along making rational points. There was one brain-fart that will live forever (yes Medicare) and 'prove' the narrative the GOP has been trying to push.

It's true Biden is getting older, but I fear that grain of truth is being pushed to extreme conclusions (like the grain of truth of a certain email server/emails).
posted by mazola at 12:36 PM on July 4 [1 favorite]

Biden is the one telling governors that he needs to stick to an 8 pm bedtime.

You know, in that job where famously nothing important ever happens at night.
posted by Gadarene at 12:40 PM on July 4 [9 favorites]

Then please read Biden's debate closing statement transcript and tell people that was not a weak shadow of what he would have said 4 years ago or compared to a closing statement Obama could offer.

And that's just the transcript, cognition also has to do with timing and clarity of delivery and if you've read any basic college psychology textbook, older people have to think slower and slower and there are biological reasons for that. It is a natural progression of human behavior and transcript isn't going to show that nuance.
posted by polymodus at 12:40 PM on July 4 [7 favorites]

Derail, but can someone please point me to the current open Gaza thread?
posted by Gadarene at 12:46 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

I don't think we disagree, yes Biden is getting older. But the 'cognitive decline' story is being pushed beyond what visible evidence suggests (at least what I'm seeing). [edit: His debate was weak, not blathering (YMMV).] I guess that's politics.
posted by mazola at 12:46 PM on July 4 [1 favorite]

Derail, but can someone please point me to the current open Gaza thread?
posted by Gadarene at 2:46 PM on July 4

Gaza tag
posted by Reverend John at 12:50 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

Forcing Biden Out Would Have Only One Beneficiary: Trump
posted by y2karl at 12:51 PM on July 4 [3 favorites]

Biden may not be in the grips of dementia, but I think it is reasonable to question why "not in the grips of dementia" is really a thing you need to say about someone who we are seriously planning to make leader of the most powerful country on earth for another half decade. Are the best our species has to offer a bloated riverboat gambler and a doddering old man who seems unsure of where his every sentence is leading?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:52 PM on July 4 [8 favorites]

I think the debate was a triumph of style over substance but here we are. Biden is going to take a beating beyond what is deserved (IMO given what the choices actually are). Given all that I'd like to believe stepping aside and letting President Harris take on the election reigns is a better course to take here. It's hard to get the niggling thought out of my head that the runaway media narrative is the 2024 version of 'but her emails', 'but the laptop', etc.
posted by mazola at 1:03 PM on July 4 [4 favorites]

This is a disturbing article.

Saying hello to one Democratic megadonor and family friend at the White House recently, the president stared blankly and nodded his head. The First Lady intervened to whisper in her husband’s ear, telling him to say “hello” to the donor by name and to thank them for their recent generosity. The president repeated the words his wife had fed him. “It hasn’t been good for a long time but it’s gotten so, so much worse,” a witness to the exchange told me. “So much worse!”
posted by Gadarene at 1:38 PM on July 4 [5 favorites]

This is a disturbing article.

Like an ambulatory post-stroke Woodrow Wilson being puppeteered by a coterie of advisers.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:20 PM on July 4 [1 favorite]

Longtime friends of the Biden family, who spoke to me on the condition of anonymity, were shocked to find that the president did not remember their names.
posted by Gadarene at 2:29 PM on July 4

Longtime friends of the Biden family, who spoke to me on the condition of anonymity, were shocked to find that the president did not remember their names.

Then why not just go on the record, right?!?!? Hahahaaha this is fine.
posted by snofoam at 2:43 PM on July 4 [7 favorites]

Gadarene: "Really? So we finally beat Medicare?

I won't even get into his abortion answer."

Honestly those answers were logically fine, if poorly-delivered. The Medicare line was just him hesitating and then being cut off by the moderator, while the abortion answer was him making a valid point about Trump demonizing immigrants even as his party tries to criminalize rape victims getting abortions in other circumstances.

The gaffe that's going to cause him real damage IMO is his bizarre claim that he's the first president in a century to have no military deaths anywhere in the world on his watch -- apparently forgetting the troops that were killed during the chaotic Afghanistan withdrawal. It's ominous that Republicans haven't made more hay out of it -- I have to imagine the Trump campaign is quietly reaching out to sympathetic family members of these KIA in order to prepare a coordinated assault later in the race, likely tying in the flare-up about Biden checking his watch at a military funeral. Afghanistan was the moment public opinion turned against Biden, and portraying him as forgetting or not caring about dead soldiers directly undercuts two of his great strengths: empathy for lost loved ones and respect for the troops. If Biden stays on it will get incredibly ugly.
posted by Rhaomi at 3:41 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

This is a disturbing article.

It certainly is, for a very specific reason. Here is the only attributed quote about Biden in the entire article; it is attributed to another reporter. Every other unquoted reference is assigned to unnamed people.

“POTUS was difficult to hear at times,” Tyler Pager of the Washington Post, assigned to circulate his statements in real time as the print pooler, wrote. “So please check the transcript.” The pool reporters often struggle with the challenge of how hard it is to hear or make sense of the president. Radio reporters do not always obtain usable audio of his remarks. Print reporters squint and strain and crane their necks, trying to find the best position by which their ears may absorb the vibration of his voice in the air. Reporters scrutinize their audio recordings and read quotes to one another after the fact. Is that what he said? You heard it? In that order? You sure?

I found this to be a poorly-sourced article that does not seem to provide any context or supporting evidence. "Print reporters." Which people are having these issues? "Radio reporters." Where are quotes from these reporters?

There are real issues to discuss about Presidential fitness, which this article fails to do, in my opinion.
posted by JDC8 at 3:42 PM on July 4 [6 favorites]

Honestly those answers were logically fine, if poorly-delivered. The Medicare line was just him hesitating and then being cut off by the moderator, while the abortion answer was him making a valid point about Trump demonizing immigrants even as his party tries to criminalize rape victims getting abortions in other circumstances.

I respectfully suggest that you read the full transcript of both the Medicare and the abortion answer one more time. Or I guess we have very different views of what is fine (not least that Biden leans into the GOP cruelty talking points by being the first one to bring up an immigrant raping someone, for fuck's sake).

The Medicare line, too, he misspoke three times in that sentence to my recollection; saying that we beat Medicare was only the last instance.
posted by Gadarene at 3:52 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

Biden has had the opportunity to fix this every day since the debate. Do interviews, do press conferences. He's the president, he could just choose to do it! If he was sharp and fit and that was just a bad 90 minutes, he could have bounced back and proved that he's fit to lead and fit to campaign already several times over by now. There's no logical reason why he would draw this out to the point of causing irreversible damage to his campaign if all he had to do was just be himself and show that he is fine in public.

If the problem was the media spreading innuendo and biased opinions, he could have totally shut that down by now. There's been a week of disaster. He's only done private meetings and 10-minute teleprompter speeches since the debate because no one trusts him to do more than that without further damaging his already dead campaign.
posted by snofoam at 4:11 PM on July 4 [20 favorites]

Don't worry, the George Stephanopoulos interview that's airing tomorrow will apparently be up to 15 minutes long!
posted by Gadarene at 4:56 PM on July 4 [4 favorites]

Don't worry, the George Stephanopoulos interview that's airing tomorrow will apparently be up to 15 minutes long!

Oh, but we're told that has nothing to do with the President's brain being cottage cheese, it's just because of the difficulty of squeezing an interview in between campaign stops!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:20 PM on July 4 [2 favorites]

A White House spokesman when asked about the 15-minute report said “False. The interview will be longer.” though nobody has said how long it will be. So it could be closer to 20 minutes.
posted by netowl at 5:24 PM on July 4 [3 favorites]

I guess we’ll see what happens. I think they’re only showing the full interview at 8 eastern, so Biden will already be asleep.

My fantasy Biden comeback would have been at Nathan’s today. Joey Chestnut was out of the competition, leaving the field wide open. If Biden was able to eat even 8-9 hotdogs, it would have cleared up any doubts about his fitness to be president.
posted by snofoam at 6:06 PM on July 4 [14 favorites]

If Biden was able to eat even 8-9 hotdogs, it would have cleared up any doubts about his fitness to be president.

This might be the most American sentence I’ve ever read. Also, it feels like someone might suggest this soon, as a way to settle this whole ‘electing’ business. Campaigning by consumption.
posted by From Bklyn at 12:08 AM on July 5 [3 favorites]

JDC8, at this point you're literally spinning up a conspiracy theory — I mean, do you think the journalist is making up these off-the-record quotes? She saw "something was amiss" firsthand. And items like the following aren't her original reporting, but act as a reminder that whatever's going on interferes with his job responsibilities:

At the G7 summit in Italy in June, Biden had the distinction of being the only world leader who did not attend a private dinner party where candid diplomatic talks would happen off-camera.

What plausible explanation is there for the debate performance and these numerous, widespread reports? Are all the reporters making up these quotes? Is there a vast secret cabal (of Democrats, mind you!) agreeing to make up stories about private encounters that match precisely the disturbing performance we saw last Thursday?

The attempts at spin themselves add up to an admission:

- it was a bad night
- well he had a cold
- his advisors prepped him poorly
- actually it was cold medicine
- actually it was too much debate prep
- okay he didn't take any cold medicine
- he was jet lagged after a week mostly resting at Camp David and several days in the same time zone before that

These excuses both here and from the White House are brazen in their attempt to deny reality. Trumpian, really.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:04 AM on July 5 [20 favorites]

Nine questions George Stephanopoulos should ask Joe Biden

(Politico, does not include my question: 'What the fuck? I mean, what the fucking fuck?')
posted by box at 5:32 AM on July 5 [8 favorites]

"President Biden, as I have been assured you were present at the time, can you clear up a long-standing controversy for our viewers this evening? Which came first..."
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:38 AM on July 5 [1 favorite]

It's true that Nuzzi's brand is gossipy journalism - I think there is a reason she writes for NYMag and not the NYTimes (or the New Yorker). BUT...

It's not fair to say she only cites one fellow reporter - she's also citing reporting in the Wall Street Journal and events that have happened (such as the G7 summit, as daveliepmann points out). And there is no doubt that her editor checked her unnamed sources - NYMag might not be known for rigorous fact-checking, but they still fact check, especially on a story that they know will be controversial.

In recent days:
-Two members of Congress have asked him to step down.
-Other members of Congress have anonymously leaked to the press that the debate performance confirmed what many had known for roughly the last half of Biden's first term - that Biden's cognition is not reliable.
-Multiple news outlets have reported that many top donors are putting pressure on him to step down.
-His already bad polls got worse.
-Pelosi, Clyburn, and Jeffries have all made fairly ambiguous statements.
-Reports that some DNC delegates are defecting.
-Biden made several verbal stumbles in his July 4th interviews and at the event he attended - and reading the transcripts don't quite convey it - the tone of his voice, the amount of pausing - he comes off confused.
-The meeting with the governors, which they tried to spin as a success, clearly wasn't - some governors have since come on the record to voice frustration at that spin, to make clear that they think he should step down.
-Biden has leaned in to Trump's nickname for him (Sleepy Joe) by claiming an 8pm bedtime.

I believe the central premise of Nuzzi's article (that for at least the last year he's been viewed as a liability due to cognitive decline), because if the debate was really a fluke, I don't think so much of his support (from donors, governors, members of Congress, the media, DNC delegates, etc.) would be crumbling. His only real support right now seems to be people who have a lot to lose if he steps down – his family (especially Hunter), his staff, and people who are his key campaign surrogates (too awkward for them, I guess).

Politico's potential questions are good - but something tells me Stephanopoulos is going to ask mostly softballs. I really hope I'm wrong.
posted by coffeecat at 7:11 AM on July 5 [5 favorites]

If Biden enters the interview doing that Willy Wonka somersault entrance he’s gold.
posted by mazola at 7:22 AM on July 5 [8 favorites]

I feel like the Democrats have an opportunity to display what a party that acknowledges/responds to reality and is not a lockstep personality cult looks like, and that's not necessarily a disadvantage?
posted by Selena777 at 7:33 AM on July 5 [9 favorites]

I seriously started praying to St. Jude over this one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:35 AM on July 5 [3 favorites]

> If Biden enters the interview doing that Willy Wonka somersault entrance he’s gold.

Another option would be to pull a Mr Dawes, Sr table dance like Dick Van Dyke did at 93.
posted by dis_integration at 7:36 AM on July 5 [3 favorites]

Our democracy is much more frail than Biden [The Philadelphia Inquirer | Opinion]

One of the first things they teach doctors in medical school is the imperfect but necessary art of triage, the technique used on a battlefield or during some other mass-casualty event to determine who is most gravely wounded and who needs immediate attention during a crisis when the system is overwhelmed, and clear-headed thinking will save lives.

Clearly, this is not something that is taught in journalism school.

In recent days: [list]

That's an onslaught of reaction, but it all tiptoes around an onslaught of firsthand accounts where we can assess danger. We're afraid of what's to come, yes, and yet TFG is 100% cognitive decline all the time and press and gossip and donors and senate/congressional leaders and RNC are silent. The country ran four years with TFG and his cognitive decline held in check by a party apparatus. It's been done. The apparatus and safeguards are now gone for TFG. The election really is about cognitive decline vs sanity but somehow it's been turned on its head.
posted by mazola at 7:47 AM on July 5 [2 favorites]

Should Biden drop out? Professor who correctly predicted past elections weighs in

A: No
posted by y2karl at 8:16 AM on July 5 [1 favorite]

Meet Allan Lichtman, the professor who predicted the president (and the last 9)

Lichtman developed the metrics for his predictions with the help of an earthquake specialist from Moscow in 1981 and uses 13 historical factors or “keys” to determine presidential races—four of those factors are based on politics, seven on performance, and two on the candidate’s personality. The incumbent party would need to lose six of those factors, or “keys,” to lose the White House.

posted by y2karl at 8:28 AM on July 5

Maybe I wasn't clear mazola - yes, the list I provided was most reactions (besides his continued struggle to speak cogently, even in brief appearances), but my point was that we wouldn't have seen those reactions if there wasn't some "there there," as they say.

Lichtman developed the metrics for his predictions with the help of an earthquake specialist from Moscow in 1981 and uses 13 historical factors or “keys” to determine presidential races

That sounds about as methodologically sound (and at the risk of being annoying, I have a PhD in history) as Paul the Octopus, who also successfully predicted the winner of 12 out of 14 world cups.
posted by coffeecat at 8:55 AM on July 5 [7 favorites]

Lichtman is a attention hungry crank
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:02 AM on July 5 [3 favorites]

:-)
Perhaps the DNC should have allowed there to be a primary after all...
posted by a3matrix at 9:05 AM on July 5 [4 favorites]

I teally wish folks would stop saying "but Trump is worse!" in response to every attempt to address what is wrong with Biden. Yes Trump is worse. No one with any interest in human welfare is saying to support Trump. No one with any kind of awareness of the situation thinks Trump is mentally well. There is a double standard among Republicans and other fash, because they are hypocrites without primciples. But the people calling for Biden to step down from the left aren't doing so because thwy prefer Trump. I think they'd all be delighted if he stepped down. They are doing so because they think we can and must do better than Biden to beat Trump.

(And Biden isn't the only candidate whose age has been a reason not to support him. I knew a lot of Sanders 2016 folks who still love the guy but didn't support him in 2020 be ause they thought je was too old to serve two terms if elected.)

I know some people think Biden is the best shot to beat Trump, and we can disagree about that in good faith, but people can disagree and not be Trump supporters.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:10 AM on July 5 [11 favorites]

In theory but not in fact.
posted by y2karl at 9:15 AM on July 5

News reports say that Bidens interview tonight will be broadcast “in its entirety”. What does that mean exactly? Unedited? Or just they’ll broadcast every question and answer without cutting a whole question?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:19 AM on July 5 [1 favorite]

I don’t think anyone is calling the people here Trump supporters.

Changing horses is historically self destructive so saying Trump is worse == stay focused.

As for the Lichtman model: models are based on assumptions and his assumes normal times. Note the only time it failed was in a not normal election.
posted by mazola at 9:20 AM on July 5 [1 favorite]

In theory but not in fact.

Are you saying people can't in fact think Biden should be replaced on the ticket without being Trump supporters?
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:26 AM on July 5 [3 favorites]

Daveliepmann and coffeecat, I appreciate your comments. I don’t appreciate the suggestion that I’m spinning up a conspiracy theory.

My plan is to stop commenting in this thread and focus on assessing reliable sources of news and how they present this story. I hope that I can dispel the notions that I’m a conspiracy theorist and a Trumpian denier of reality by broadening my news diet.

I believe a news story of this magnitude requires people to be diligent and skeptical readers. I’ll continue to follow the development of this story to look for evidence that challenges or supports my viewpoints.

Hopefully, this will be enough to make an informed decision, which is a key principle I’m striving for.
posted by JDC8 at 9:27 AM on July 5

So, Y2Karl, would you potentially be okay with Biden as a figurehead candidate and familiar brand with other people - some of whom were elected, some appointed - keeping the lights on behind the scenes?
posted by Selena777 at 9:28 AM on July 5

the more I track all of this (and to be clear, I've been doing my best to ignore US politics for a few years now, being Canadian -- best to focus on my own neighbourhood and all that) the more I'm struck by how "good" the timing is, assuming you have any hope at all for a functional American democracy past this November. By which I mean, it's five long months until election day, which is even longer than an eternity in politics.

Or maybe a baseball analogy is a better way to go. If you're going to be down by nine runs with nobody even on base, the bottom of the third inning sure as hell beats the bottom of the ninth.

I don't pretend to have a clue of how all this shall play out. But I do know there's a lot of game still to play ...
posted by philip-random at 9:37 AM on July 5 [5 favorites]

would you potentially be okay with Biden as a figurehead candidate and familiar brand with other people - some of whom were elected, some appointed - keeping the lights on behind the scenes?

I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it has arguably happened before.

"President Reagan was not diagnosed with AD until August of 1994, but the results of our analyses suggest that changes in speaking patterns were becoming detectable years prior to clinical diagnosis."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6922000/
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 9:46 AM on July 5 [2 favorites]

Switching candidates may be a risky move, but it’s now a safe bet that Biden will lose. Complaining about people who want to at least have a chance at beating Trump is just ignoring the facts. Biden and his team are driving off a cliff because “conventional wisdom” suggests there should be a bridge there.
posted by snofoam at 9:47 AM on July 5 [17 favorites]

I know there's definitely precedent, but IIRC, they almost entirely concealed it from the public while it was happening and did their own thing instead of the official rules regarding an incapacitated president.
posted by Selena777 at 9:57 AM on July 5 [4 favorites]

I think y2karl is saying that people calling for Biden to step down are supporting Trump because this will guarantee that Trump wins. y2karl, I'd welcome if you would actually articulate why you think this, rather than just taking cheap shots at other users on this thread.
posted by coffeecat at 10:15 AM on July 5 [10 favorites]

Biden has been consistently losing all along, unfortunately, even before this.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:56 AM on July 5 [5 favorites]

Biden support is made up of
a) people who are thrilled about Biden
b) people who aren't thrilled with Biden but support the Democrats
c) people who support anyone but Trump

So, if Biden withdraws, and Kamala Harris is the nominee, group b & c, won't change. Are the group a folks so excited about Biden that it would throw the election? Especially given that Harris would draw her own support?
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:59 AM on July 5 [7 favorites]

If Biden enters the interview doing that Willy Wonka somersault entrance he’s gold.

Of course this won't happen and it's also instructive what Wilder intended with that entrance -- from that point on the audience would not know what is true and what is not.

This election is fundamentally about truth vs lies.

It's true Biden is old. It's true his best years are behind him. These won't change. They're true. He'll be old in the interview too.

It's also true that Biden is a decent man. It's true he's committed to rule of law. His record is there to see and true. The surprise isn't who he is, it's the unknown future. It's fear.

The danger of switching candidates erases all of those known truths and replaces them with uncertainty and something to litigate. And in that chaos the lies of the other side remain unchallenged. That's my hesitation/fear.

Smarter people than me say the time is now for Biden to step aside and give President Harris a chance. It avoids a messy contest, it keeps donations available, it keeps a record more-or-less intact. The question will be 'Who is Kamala Harris really?' and that's the side that I think plays to the other side.
posted by mazola at 11:04 AM on July 5 [2 favorites]

would you potentially be okay with Biden as a figurehead candidate and familiar brand with other people - some of whom were elected, some appointed - keeping the lights on behind the scenes?

"Would"? I figure that's what we've had since Biden was inaugurated.

I'm not thrilled about it, but I'll gladly take it over Trump. When I say that my cat, assuming he had a Democratic cabinet, would be preferable to Trump I'm not exaggeratting. A literal corpse would be better than Trump.

I'm opposed to the idea of a singular President at all. I think we'd be better off with a Triumvirate and an election for a new Triumvar every 2 years. And no, I'm not kidding or exaggeratting. The US President has far too much power for any single person.

So I'm not hopeful Biden will step down because he can't play the Roberts fantasy role of bold demigod King in all but name.

I feel confident that any of the Democratic candidates from 2020, with the exceptions of Sanders, Warren, and for the opposite reason Bloomberg, world be doing more or less the same thing Biden's administration has.

Any and all mainstream Democrats running for President are more of less interchangeable from a policy standpoint.

I'm worried about his electability.

I don't think he's going to step aside. But I'm fairly sure that if he doesn't Trump will win and I'll like it if he could either drop out or stop hiding, have many press meetings,
and thereby prove he's competent.

Yes, Trump is clearly both senile AND stupid. And if that was working against him it'd be relevant. It's not fair, but as seen by the polls likely Democratic voters do care about Biden's senility while potential Republican voters don't care about Trump's senility.

For myself, other than the cringe factor, I don't care if Biden is senile or do not, I'm voting for him even if he was actually dead. However as people here keep mentioning, elections are decided by the apathy, ignorance, and enthusiasm of a handful of people in a tiny handful of states.

So the only question that matters is: will they turn out in sufficient numbers for a senile candidate?

Or, rather, it'd matter if Biden might step down. He won't so the whole thing is moot.
posted by sotonohito at 11:05 AM on July 5 [5 favorites]

The one thing I don't think most people have considered about the possibility of Biden stepping down for Harris is how exciting it would be. This has never happened! I think that so much attention would be paid that it...well...almost wouldn't matter if people weren't crazy about Harris herself, because just the idea of something so paradigm shifting would be bigger than any actual candidate. I think the shock and awe factor is worth keeping in mind.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:38 AM on July 5 [19 favorites]

The Media Rigs the 2024 Election (Oliver Willis Explains)

President Joe Biden’s performance in the first presidential debate was abysmal. Regardless of the reason for what occurred it was a betrayal of the trust millions of Americans have put in him over the last four years, not just as a partisan party leader, but as the head of the American government. The debate over how he and the Democrats should proceed from here is a legitimate discussion worth having.

This is completely separate from the media feeding frenzy that has raged nonstop since before the end of the debate.

posted by box at 12:35 PM on July 5 [3 favorites]

Are Democrats really being ask to rally around the lie that Biden is fully fit for five more months because that's the lesser evil than giving Trump more credibility on the issue and you just don't have a choice if Biden won't quit?

Those are not the choices.

The Democratic leadership can simply say "no," table and make (and pass) a motion to unpledge the delegates, and nominate someone else. It's not pleasant, but it's not in any way conceptually or practically hard.
posted by MattD at 12:37 PM on July 5 [3 favorites]

From the NYT Breaking News: “Election Live Updates: ‘I’ll Beat Trump’ Says a Defiant Biden, Pledging to Stay in Race”

Link to gift article

Without willingness on his part to step aside, any scenarios for replacing him even just with Harris are now on a much higher difficulty setting (and if it’s a 25th amendment removal, won’t that implicate her for not speaking out sooner, for at least some prospective voters?)
posted by blue suede stockings at 1:15 PM on July 5 [1 favorite]

He is so selfish. The fact that Hunter Biden is one of his closest advisers on this doesn't inspire any measure of confidence either.
posted by Gadarene at 1:22 PM on July 5 [3 favorites]

Sen. Mark Warner seeks to assemble group of Democratic senators to ask Biden to exit race (WaPo)
posted by box at 1:34 PM on July 5 [3 favorites]

The idea that he is "curtailing" events after 8 PM is mindboggling to me. I guess I know when I'd go apeshit if I were a world leader inclined to go apeshit. What the fuck even is this crap?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 1:35 PM on July 5 [5 favorites]

Healey, a top Biden ally, urges him to consider dropping out of the race

I guess Biden's messages that he's staying in are meant to reassure? For me at least every one makes me more angrily sure that he's putting himself before party and country.

He's past the point where he can campaign or govern effectively. That's it. It doesn't get any simpler. I know it must hurt terribly, it's literally the end of his life (even if he lives another twenty good years out of office). It's just simply not okay to continue as he is.
posted by daveliepmann at 1:38 PM on July 5 [6 favorites]

What else is he going to say? Anything other than “I’m staying 100%” is tantamount to “I’m dropping out”.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:40 PM on July 5 [1 favorite]

For sure Biden and his team have to publicly be 100% in until the moment he (hopefully!) drops out. What I don't really get at this point is how they think they will prop him up. The best possible performance in a 20 minute interview with a friendly reporter is not going to prove that he's up to the campaign or the presidency. Are they really going to do a slow-drip of barely competent short appearances? They can try to spin those, but it won't change the polls. He will either have another awful moment on camera, or he will continue to poll as a loser, and either way he has to be replaced. Why drag this out?
posted by snofoam at 2:02 PM on July 5 [8 favorites]

Biden stepping down would be a chance for a Democratic reset (Branko Marcetic for Jacobin)

It’s somehow already been forgotten that, over the past eight years, Democrats have had two real-world tests of what does and doesn’t work to win presidential elections, and elections against Donald Trump specifically. The first came in 2016, when they ran on nothing but how scary the other guy was and did little to win over progressive voters besides telling them they had no choice. That proved a failure. The second time, in 2020, when they made common cause with progressives to jointly produce and run on a fairly ambitious populist agenda, proved a success.

....

Yet even though this happened only four years ago — and even though it was their own winning strategy — Biden and his camp have inexplicably decided to rerun the failed 2016 strategy that first put Trump in the White House.

posted by box at 2:09 PM on July 5 [6 favorites]

NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD

NEW BIDEN THREAD

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
NEW BIDEN THREAD
posted by lalochezia at 2:09 PM on July 5 [1 favorite]

For sure Biden and his team have to publicly be 100% in until the moment he (hopefully!) drops out. What I don't really get at this point is how they think they will prop him up. The best possible performance in a 20 minute interview with a friendly reporter is not going to prove that he's up to the campaign or the presidency. Are they really going to do a slow-drip of barely competent short appearances? They can try to spin those, but it won't change the polls. He will either have another awful moment on camera, or he will continue to poll as a loser, and either way he has to be replaced. Why drag this out?

One grim posssible answer for this is that they are fighting a rearguard action to delay any decision beyond the point of no return.

Once the party convention occurs and once state ballot access deadlines have expired they can present it as a forced choice between Biden and Trump with no other options.

I hope that's not literally the strategy but it seems at least possible that that's their short-term goal. If so, god help us all.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:37 PM on July 5 [2 favorites]

Is anybody else missing Paul Wellstone as much as me right now?
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:16 PM on July 5 [3 favorites]

Devils Rancher: Oh yeah i am. And Mel Carnahan, another actually-good Democrat who died in a plane crash.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:33 PM on July 5 [2 favorites]