Baghdad 5 years later
August 4, 2008 11:04 PM Subscribe
Contrary to the official reports about the military surge bringing stability to Iraq, today's Baghdad is the city of 12ft high walls where one street is at war with the next. On the outskirts there are killing fields, where militia brings their kidnapped victims, kill them and dump their bodies in thousands of unmarked graves. But the real disaster is saved for later, when the kids who know only fear and sectarianism today, and whose heroes are extremists, will grow up tomorrow and demand their revenge from the Americans who completely destroyed their country.
This post was deleted for the following reason: if you're quoting editorials please use quote marks, otherwise this seems like an outragefilter overeditorialized posts. There are many good posts about Iraq and the terrible things that are going on there, but another OMGOMGOMG post doesn't lead to greater understanding. -- jessamyn
I know i've said it before, but... I sure as hell don't want to be in this country when it gets what's coming to it.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:26 PM on August 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by dunkadunc at 11:26 PM on August 4, 2008 [1 favorite]
the 'real disaster' (at least according to the last vid) is kids being raised surrounded by violence and often on the propaganda of sectarian militias. in that wonderful way that violence begets violence...
posted by nangua at 11:30 PM on August 4, 2008
posted by nangua at 11:30 PM on August 4, 2008
Forget the Surge -- Violence Is Down in Iraq Because Ethnic Cleansing Was Brutally Effective
posted by homunculus at 11:38 PM on August 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 11:38 PM on August 4, 2008 [3 favorites]
Naive self-centrism aside, he could be right. The "real disaster" could be "real" not because "real" people suffer, but because of its magnitude and universality.
It could, but not necessarily will. Historically there are many examples of the sufferers of massacres and genocide who didn't seek revenge on the perpetrators. Often they have more pressing concerns, like rebuilding their destroyed homes, looking after their surviving families, building new families of their own, working, and so on. Revenge is a lot of trouble, and cynical as it is, revenge is a lot more trouble for the poor to take, especially revenge on a lot of people.
Anyway, the Americans are busily taking vengeance on themselves.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:45 PM on August 4, 2008
It could, but not necessarily will. Historically there are many examples of the sufferers of massacres and genocide who didn't seek revenge on the perpetrators. Often they have more pressing concerns, like rebuilding their destroyed homes, looking after their surviving families, building new families of their own, working, and so on. Revenge is a lot of trouble, and cynical as it is, revenge is a lot more trouble for the poor to take, especially revenge on a lot of people.
Anyway, the Americans are busily taking vengeance on themselves.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 11:45 PM on August 4, 2008
They are responsible for 'real player' ? What a terrible revenge, but it all makes sense now.
During the mid 90s Saddam worked on a plan so devious it would boggle the mind. He would cripple the new American 'internet' with a media player so annoying it would make people give up the internet.
Truly the 'real' disaster.
posted by sien at 12:10 AM on August 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
During the mid 90s Saddam worked on a plan so devious it would boggle the mind. He would cripple the new American 'internet' with a media player so annoying it would make people give up the internet.
Truly the 'real' disaster.
posted by sien at 12:10 AM on August 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't this post have been better with a few text/commentary links that weren't youtube? Like this one, or this one...
posted by wilful at 12:18 AM on August 5, 2008
posted by wilful at 12:18 AM on August 5, 2008
<whimper> But I didn't want us to invade Iraq! Can I get some kind of pass on the whole revenge thing?
posted by JHarris at 2:22 AM on August 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 2:22 AM on August 5, 2008 [2 favorites]
If they were giving out passes, JHarris, there's a queue ahead of you.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:14 AM on August 5, 2008
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:14 AM on August 5, 2008
I'm no extremist but the more I think about things the more it becomes clear that the only way the middle east arabs will have peace, prosperity and independence from bullying powers is to establish a caliphate along the model that Osama Bin Laden and his idealogical godparents want.
It may be socially repressive and may mean the destruction of the state of Israel* but it seems thats the only alternative to having Western imperialists loot, rape, torture and bully the people of that region until the oil disappears. Frankly, I think if you asked the majority of people (outside of Iran) whether they want to be gang raped by American marines or be good little Muslims, I think the answer is clear.
Besides the countries in the region are purely arbitary creations of Western powers and greedy local thugs. The only social force binding a lot of disparate communities is Islam. The solution is inevitable... and it won't be pretty but its a hell of a lot better than what is going on now.
The question then is: will the Americans run out of money / hatred before the region runs out of Arabs? My guess is yes.
* I don't hate Israel or fail to see that the Jews have a legitimate right to peace and prosperity themselves. I just fail to understand what twisted logic figured in deciding that particular location. Ahhh... logic had little to do with it.
posted by monkeyx-uk at 4:21 AM on August 5, 2008
It may be socially repressive and may mean the destruction of the state of Israel* but it seems thats the only alternative to having Western imperialists loot, rape, torture and bully the people of that region until the oil disappears. Frankly, I think if you asked the majority of people (outside of Iran) whether they want to be gang raped by American marines or be good little Muslims, I think the answer is clear.
Besides the countries in the region are purely arbitary creations of Western powers and greedy local thugs. The only social force binding a lot of disparate communities is Islam. The solution is inevitable... and it won't be pretty but its a hell of a lot better than what is going on now.
The question then is: will the Americans run out of money / hatred before the region runs out of Arabs? My guess is yes.
* I don't hate Israel or fail to see that the Jews have a legitimate right to peace and prosperity themselves. I just fail to understand what twisted logic figured in deciding that particular location. Ahhh... logic had little to do with it.
posted by monkeyx-uk at 4:21 AM on August 5, 2008
You know, the revenge never comes. Vietnam hasn't sent wave after wave of terrorists to American shores. They wanted other countries out. That was all. Iraq will probably be the same.
Iraq will reap what the west has sown for a while. Not so much the west.
posted by srboisvert at 4:27 AM on August 5, 2008
Iraq will reap what the west has sown for a while. Not so much the west.
posted by srboisvert at 4:27 AM on August 5, 2008
JHarris: "<whimper> But I didn't want us to invade Iraq! Can I get some kind of pass on the whole revenge thing?"
Just claim that you were in Austria during the run-up to the war...
posted by PontifexPrimus at 4:46 AM on August 5, 2008
Just claim that you were in Austria during the run-up to the war...
posted by PontifexPrimus at 4:46 AM on August 5, 2008
The North Vietnamese didn't need revenge, srboisvert: they won. And if you think terrorists will never hit American shores, you haven't been paying attention.
However, if I can derail from the discussion of the Vengeance on America plotline, is this comparable to Yugoslavia? It was astonishing there how the ancient feuds which seemed to have been gone for generations under a dictator reappeared immediately in lethal, genocidal form as soon as he was gone. If so, the outlook is grim in the medium term. Would it be more prudent to attempt a managed partition than leave things dangerously unstable?
posted by Phanx at 4:54 AM on August 5, 2008
However, if I can derail from the discussion of the Vengeance on America plotline, is this comparable to Yugoslavia? It was astonishing there how the ancient feuds which seemed to have been gone for generations under a dictator reappeared immediately in lethal, genocidal form as soon as he was gone. If so, the outlook is grim in the medium term. Would it be more prudent to attempt a managed partition than leave things dangerously unstable?
posted by Phanx at 4:54 AM on August 5, 2008
Young people who grow up in communities riven bysectarian strife and patrolled by soldiers from abroad don't always go on to further violence.
Perhaps we need to talk to the enemy
posted by surfdad at 4:57 AM on August 5, 2008
Perhaps we need to talk to the enemy
posted by surfdad at 4:57 AM on August 5, 2008
Sorry, don't know what happened there, Links are ... don't, on, talk
posted by surfdad at 5:02 AM on August 5, 2008
posted by surfdad at 5:02 AM on August 5, 2008
It may be socially repressive and may mean the destruction of the state of Israel* but it seems that's the only alternative to having Western imperialists loot, rape, torture and bully the people of that region until the oil disappears.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, leaving aside the injustice of the American invasion, I've understood the majority of violence in Iraq as sectarian Muslim-on-Muslim. So... your wish is granted?
Under this light it seems hard to envision a Sunni Arab Caliphate successfully binding a tangle of cultural and political factions into a stable, peaceful cohesion.
Frankly, I think if you asked the majority of people (outside of Iran) whether they want to be gang raped by American marines or be good little Muslims, I think the answer is clear
The illusion that one kind is any different from the other is the pillar on which centuries of dictatorship have been built.
posted by kid ichorous at 5:10 AM on August 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but, leaving aside the injustice of the American invasion, I've understood the majority of violence in Iraq as sectarian Muslim-on-Muslim. So... your wish is granted?
Under this light it seems hard to envision a Sunni Arab Caliphate successfully binding a tangle of cultural and political factions into a stable, peaceful cohesion.
Frankly, I think if you asked the majority of people (outside of Iran) whether they want to be gang raped by American marines or be good little Muslims, I think the answer is clear
The illusion that one kind is any different from the other is the pillar on which centuries of dictatorship have been built.
posted by kid ichorous at 5:10 AM on August 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
Contrary to the official reports...
Please report to the Traditional Media Center for re-education, citizen.
posted by DU at 5:43 AM on August 5, 2008
Please report to the Traditional Media Center for re-education, citizen.
posted by DU at 5:43 AM on August 5, 2008
had saddam kept the oil hidden and become the world's chief exporter of broccoli, none of this would have happened.
posted by kitchenrat at 5:47 AM on August 5, 2008
posted by kitchenrat at 5:47 AM on August 5, 2008
Besides the countries in the region are purely arbitary creations of Western powers and greedy local thugs.
This is just not true.
posted by desuetude at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2008
This is just not true.
posted by desuetude at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2008
I'm no extremist but the more I think about things the more it becomes clear that the only way the middle east arabs will have peace, prosperity and independence from bullying powers is to establish a caliphate along the model that Osama Bin Laden and his idealogical godparents want.
Now, you're thinking that people like OBL actually speak for billions of Muslims, some of whom are actually moderate. I think this is absolutely untrue. The Middle East may not be ready for democracy, but I think a majority of the Muslims actually want it. This is not to endorse the mad visions of the neocons, but I think you're overcorrecting, to put it mildly.
posted by Edgewise at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2008
Now, you're thinking that people like OBL actually speak for billions of Muslims, some of whom are actually moderate. I think this is absolutely untrue. The Middle East may not be ready for democracy, but I think a majority of the Muslims actually want it. This is not to endorse the mad visions of the neocons, but I think you're overcorrecting, to put it mildly.
posted by Edgewise at 6:28 AM on August 5, 2008
In case it wasn't evident, the YouTube user linked isn't the actual producer. The "Baghdad, 5 Years On" series was produced by Ghaith Abdul-Ahad, an Iraqi journalist with the Guardian. That info would have helped a bit.
I do like that the guy mirroring the series is named "Top quality Persian fruit juice and pastries with ice creem."
posted by brownpau at 6:31 AM on August 5, 2008
I do like that the guy mirroring the series is named "Top quality Persian fruit juice and pastries with ice creem."
posted by brownpau at 6:31 AM on August 5, 2008
Oh, and I collected the series into a single embeddable playlist for continuous viewing. Let me know if I missed any parts.
posted by brownpau at 6:32 AM on August 5, 2008
posted by brownpau at 6:32 AM on August 5, 2008
Thanks for posting these powerful videos. But next time keep your motherfucking editorializing out of your motherfucking post.
posted by languagehat at 7:07 AM on August 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by languagehat at 7:07 AM on August 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
But next time keep your motherfucking editorializing out of your motherfucking post.
I believe that the text of the post comes from the video collection.
posted by Tullius at 7:22 AM on August 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
I believe that the text of the post comes from the video collection.
posted by Tullius at 7:22 AM on August 5, 2008 [1 favorite]
PontifexPrimus: Just claim that you were in Austria during the run-up to the war...
Why Austria?
posted by syzygy at 7:56 AM on August 5, 2008
Why Austria?
posted by syzygy at 7:56 AM on August 5, 2008
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