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August 7, 2009 8:15 PM Subscribe
The 'problem'? A perceived spate of recent knife crime in Japan:
The 'result'? Pocket knife lands tourist, 74, in lockup, with nine days in a holding cell. Two other American tourists were arrested that same day at the same koban (police box) ...
- seven fatally stabbed in Akihabara electronics district ...
- woman began slashing pedestrians with a small multitool pocket knife ...
- other similar incidents ...
The 'result'? Pocket knife lands tourist, 74, in lockup, with nine days in a holding cell. Two other American tourists were arrested that same day at the same koban (police box) ...
Double-edged pocket knife? What was he carrying, a punch knife?
posted by mrmojoflying at 8:24 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by mrmojoflying at 8:24 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
A US friend of mine is a roadie & was hauled in for wearing his multi tool when he was out shopping over there a couple of months ago. It took a few hours to get free with very little translation available apart from the Red Sox tattoos he has dotted around his body which led to some common ground with the police. (Luckily they didn't see what the Patriot's mascot was doing to the Cowboy's cheerleader in the one on his back otherwise it could've been a whole different story...)
posted by i_cola at 8:27 PM on August 7, 2009
posted by i_cola at 8:27 PM on August 7, 2009
Because obviously no one would ever attack someone with a single-edged knife.
posted by delmoi at 8:29 PM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by delmoi at 8:29 PM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
Thanks Japan! Thanks for giving gun nut simpletons a "slippery slope" talking point.
posted by lattiboy at 8:34 PM on August 7, 2009 [8 favorites]
posted by lattiboy at 8:34 PM on August 7, 2009 [8 favorites]
wait until people start running amok with rocks - they'll have to pound them down until mt fuji is a sand dune
posted by pyramid termite at 8:37 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 8:37 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Wow, the tone of that last article. Maybe Brian Hedge should do himself a favour and book the next flight out of Tokyo.
posted by saturnine at 8:37 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by saturnine at 8:37 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Apparently there's an exception if you're having a romantic relationship with the anime character engraved on the handle.
posted by brundlefly at 8:45 PM on August 7, 2009 [7 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 8:45 PM on August 7, 2009 [7 favorites]
How did the tourist get on a plane with a pocket knife?
posted by desjardins at 8:51 PM on August 7, 2009
posted by desjardins at 8:51 PM on August 7, 2009
mrmojoflying: "Double-edged pocket knife? What was he carrying, a punch knife?"
From the same website:
2. The knife pictured is only 1.5 inches. You'd need to be about 50 percent longer to get in trouble with Japan's new law.
posted by pwnguin at 8:55 PM on August 7, 2009
From the same website:
In an expert's hands this sort of device, even if made from wood, can be deadly1. "Cause as much damage"? Just who the hell are this site's customers?
...
The legal risk involved with such a knife makes its real self defense value questionable, as there are many perfectly legal and common items that can cause as much damage with very little training, and not land you in court.
2. The knife pictured is only 1.5 inches. You'd need to be about 50 percent longer to get in trouble with Japan's new law.
posted by pwnguin at 8:55 PM on August 7, 2009
I don't have the link, but I recall seeing a specially designed "anti stab" knife with a rounded end to prevent stabbening. (Yes I said stabbening, it was quite fun) I guess they forgot about, y'know, slashings.
posted by Askiba at 9:00 PM on August 7, 2009
posted by Askiba at 9:00 PM on August 7, 2009
This made the rounds on the blog of Arudou Debito (a naturalized Japanese human rights activist) last week. If you read that thread, you'll see a lot of unanswered questions and things that don't quite sound right (culminating in this lovely exchange between Brian, the claimant, and Debito).
Regardless of whether this story is true or not (and since there are no corroborating sources or evidence I'm not taking a position on the matter), this kind of thing happening to a tourist is practically unheard of in Japan. Please do not let this deter anyone intending to visit Japan, since you will almost certainly have a trouble-free experience, even if you deal with the police.
posted by armage at 9:01 PM on August 7, 2009
Regardless of whether this story is true or not (and since there are no corroborating sources or evidence I'm not taking a position on the matter), this kind of thing happening to a tourist is practically unheard of in Japan. Please do not let this deter anyone intending to visit Japan, since you will almost certainly have a trouble-free experience, even if you deal with the police.
posted by armage at 9:01 PM on August 7, 2009
I guess Tokyo Gore Police finally went mainstream.
posted by adipocere at 9:06 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by adipocere at 9:06 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
knives don't kill people, sharp edges do
posted by Mick at 9:06 PM on August 7, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by Mick at 9:06 PM on August 7, 2009 [3 favorites]
It's sold in the UK , but maybe they can start marketing it to the Japanese.
I didn't see anything about anti-stab knives there. I'll chalk it up to a mistake. But now I am FOREVER ENLIGHTENED.
posted by Askiba at 9:11 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
I didn't see anything about anti-stab knives there. I'll chalk it up to a mistake. But now I am FOREVER ENLIGHTENED.
posted by Askiba at 9:11 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Why should gaijin tourists come to a country that targets them as criminals?
This is basically pro-active policing. Grandpa fell into the category of weapon-carriers and got that treatment.
The casual carry limit for Japan is 6cm, so Grandpa was carrying a 2.75" buck knife of some sort, eg. this.
That wasn't necessarily a whittlin' knife he was carrying.
debit.org has more details, including the probable reason that he was held for nine days: refusal to sign the gomennasai admission of guilt.
posted by @troy at 9:20 PM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
This is basically pro-active policing. Grandpa fell into the category of weapon-carriers and got that treatment.
The casual carry limit for Japan is 6cm, so Grandpa was carrying a 2.75" buck knife of some sort, eg. this.
That wasn't necessarily a whittlin' knife he was carrying.
debit.org has more details, including the probable reason that he was held for nine days: refusal to sign the gomennasai admission of guilt.
posted by @troy at 9:20 PM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
they can have my knife when they pry it from my cold dead hands OH SHIT I GRABBED THE WRONG END OW OW OW OW!!!
posted by pyramid termite at 9:21 PM on August 7, 2009 [8 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 9:21 PM on August 7, 2009 [8 favorites]
Why should gaijin tourists come to a country that targets them as criminals?
Why would the Japanese want law-breaking, self-entitled jerks who think they're above the law coming to their country?
posted by rodgerd at 9:24 PM on August 7, 2009 [12 favorites]
Why would the Japanese want law-breaking, self-entitled jerks who think they're above the law coming to their country?
posted by rodgerd at 9:24 PM on August 7, 2009 [12 favorites]
While we await the appearance of the story that the Japan Times is apparently preparing on this incident, all we have to go on are four more letters to the editor:
- Questions fly over arrest of tourist
- Safe and accommodating country
- Garden club tourists shun Japan
- All appearances of a shakedown
Great link, armage. However, it's funny how Debito shut down the conversation not because holes in "George's" story, but instead because George was being rude (which is kind of funny coming from Debito).
I never had any problems with police when I lived in Japan (they were very nice and helpful when our house was broken into), but the increased presence of police wearing bullet-proof vests and combat boots at train stations after 9/11 was one of the reasons (a very, very small factory ) why I decided to leave Japan. The discretionary powers of police in Japan is a little unnerving.
My favourite koban memory is parking illegally outside the train station. My wife parked her car illegally, too. We both got tickets. I went into the koban and plead ignorance (I had only been in Japan for a year or so, and still did that sort of stupid foreigner trick). My ticket was ripped up, hers was not.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:34 PM on August 7, 2009
I never had any problems with police when I lived in Japan (they were very nice and helpful when our house was broken into), but the increased presence of police wearing bullet-proof vests and combat boots at train stations after 9/11 was one of the reasons (a very, very small factory ) why I decided to leave Japan. The discretionary powers of police in Japan is a little unnerving.
My favourite koban memory is parking illegally outside the train station. My wife parked her car illegally, too. We both got tickets. I went into the koban and plead ignorance (I had only been in Japan for a year or so, and still did that sort of stupid foreigner trick). My ticket was ripped up, hers was not.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:34 PM on August 7, 2009
I was in Tokyo recently and was stopped by a pair of cops while walking down the street and searched for no discernable reason. They checked my papers and went through my pockets, paying particular attention to the little multitool I was carrying. I guess I'm more fortunate than I realized, since I'd removed the knife blade before leaving home to get it through airport security. They sent me on my way without any trouble.
posted by contraption at 10:22 PM on August 7, 2009
posted by contraption at 10:22 PM on August 7, 2009
The rule of thumb about Japanese cops is they're pretty lazy, but if they do decide to go after someone, it's with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns. A friend of mine was put in jail for two weeks--two weeks--because the cops raided his shared rental house and found a speck of marijuana in his room. He doesn't smoke weed, and (long story short) it turned out to be the girl's from the next room over, but try explaining anything to a Japanese cop and it's like talking to a brick wall. In Japan, you're guilty until proven innocent.
posted by zardoz at 11:08 PM on August 7, 2009
posted by zardoz at 11:08 PM on August 7, 2009
The rule of thumb about Japanese cops is they're pretty lazy, but if they do decide to go after someone, it's with the white-hot intensity of a thousand suns.
Oh, so they're like American cops.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:14 PM on August 7, 2009 [7 favorites]
Oh, so they're like American cops.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:14 PM on August 7, 2009 [7 favorites]
Double-edged weapons and daggers are illegal in California, too. Blade lengths in excess of 2 3/4" are illegal to carry concealed. To be fair, Spyderco's Civilian isn't a stabbing knife, either, but that doesn't make it any less lethal, and it's illegal in some states.
Many states have a pretty narrow definition of pocketknives as single-bladed instruments that entirely enclose the blade within the handle when folded. State laws vary regarding fixed-blade knives, gravity knives (butterfly knives or balisongs) and automatic knives (switchblades and spring-assisted knives).
This isn't about some obscure or draconian Japanese law, it's about weapons laws in general. Nine days in a holding cell might be a bit lengthy, but I'm willing to bet folks have been arrested and held for longer periods on similar violations domestically. Ignorance of a particular country's laws is not an excuse, it's an explanation for the arrest.
posted by Graygorey at 11:15 PM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
Many states have a pretty narrow definition of pocketknives as single-bladed instruments that entirely enclose the blade within the handle when folded. State laws vary regarding fixed-blade knives, gravity knives (butterfly knives or balisongs) and automatic knives (switchblades and spring-assisted knives).
This isn't about some obscure or draconian Japanese law, it's about weapons laws in general. Nine days in a holding cell might be a bit lengthy, but I'm willing to bet folks have been arrested and held for longer periods on similar violations domestically. Ignorance of a particular country's laws is not an excuse, it's an explanation for the arrest.
posted by Graygorey at 11:15 PM on August 7, 2009 [2 favorites]
This isn't about some obscure or draconian Japanese law, it's about weapons laws in general. Nine days in a holding cell might be a bit lengthy, but I'm willing to bet folks have been arrested and held for longer periods on similar violations domestically. [...] Ignorance of a particular country's laws is not an excuse, it's an explanation for the arrest.
Yeah, well, I'm willing to bet being "arrested and held for longer periods on similar violations domestically" would be (and is) just as ridiculous here as it is in Japan.
I'm sorry, but a bog-standard, palm-length pocketknife or multi-tool is something everyone ought to carry on a daily basis, not something we should be arresting people for. Ignorance of common sense is not an excuse -- it's an explanation for these bullshit "weapons" laws...
posted by vorfeed at 11:25 PM on August 7, 2009 [4 favorites]
Yeah, well, I'm willing to bet being "arrested and held for longer periods on similar violations domestically" would be (and is) just as ridiculous here as it is in Japan.
I'm sorry, but a bog-standard, palm-length pocketknife or multi-tool is something everyone ought to carry on a daily basis, not something we should be arresting people for. Ignorance of common sense is not an excuse -- it's an explanation for these bullshit "weapons" laws...
posted by vorfeed at 11:25 PM on August 7, 2009 [4 favorites]
Does this mean my Zulu spear is illegal?
'Cuz it's pretty awesome. I cut myself ripping the bubble wrap off it.
Of course, just tonight I cut myself far worse on the chassis of my TIVO.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:26 PM on August 7, 2009
'Cuz it's pretty awesome. I cut myself ripping the bubble wrap off it.
Of course, just tonight I cut myself far worse on the chassis of my TIVO.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:26 PM on August 7, 2009
Why would the Japanese want law-breaking, self-entitled jerks who think they're above the law coming to their country?
This 74-year old was probably just coming back to Japan to settle some old scores. Good thing the police caught up with him in time.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:27 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
This 74-year old was probably just coming back to Japan to settle some old scores. Good thing the police caught up with him in time.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:27 PM on August 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
it's an explanation for these bullshit "weapons" laws
From '85 to '92 I lived in West LA. From '92 to '00 I lived in Tokyo. Since then I've been living in the bay area. I'll take too much policing over too little any day.
fwiw, this knife is the largest legal size for casual carry in Japan.
posted by @troy at 11:31 PM on August 7, 2009
From '85 to '92 I lived in West LA. From '92 to '00 I lived in Tokyo. Since then I've been living in the bay area. I'll take too much policing over too little any day.
fwiw, this knife is the largest legal size for casual carry in Japan.
posted by @troy at 11:31 PM on August 7, 2009
This isn't about some obscure or draconian Japanese law, it's about weapons laws in general. Nine days in a holding cell might be a bit lengthy, but I'm willing to bet folks have been arrested and held for longer periods on similar violations domestically. Ignorance of a particular country's laws is not an excuse, it's an explanation for the arrest.
That may be so, but Japan doesn't make a habit of publicising the restrictions on knives that are allowed in the country. At any rate, if the man arrested had a standard pocketknife, he should not have been doing anything illegal under Japanese law. If it was a double-sided dagger or switchblade, then it would be a different story.
The trouble with these kinds of laws is, as always, they leave much up to an officer's individual discretion, and in Japan, foreigners with poor or no Japanese ability are easy targets for any abuse that might occur, especially since they have little effective recourse in the legal system.
posted by armage at 11:39 PM on August 7, 2009
That may be so, but Japan doesn't make a habit of publicising the restrictions on knives that are allowed in the country. At any rate, if the man arrested had a standard pocketknife, he should not have been doing anything illegal under Japanese law. If it was a double-sided dagger or switchblade, then it would be a different story.
The trouble with these kinds of laws is, as always, they leave much up to an officer's individual discretion, and in Japan, foreigners with poor or no Japanese ability are easy targets for any abuse that might occur, especially since they have little effective recourse in the legal system.
posted by armage at 11:39 PM on August 7, 2009
fwiw, this knife is the largest legal size for casual carry in Japan.
For folding or pocketknives, yes -- but they changed the law after the Akihabara massacre in 2008, so any dagger blades over 5.5 cm long are now illegal to buy, sell, or possess.
posted by armage at 11:43 PM on August 7, 2009
For folding or pocketknives, yes -- but they changed the law after the Akihabara massacre in 2008, so any dagger blades over 5.5 cm long are now illegal to buy, sell, or possess.
posted by armage at 11:43 PM on August 7, 2009
fwiw, this knife is the largest legal size for casual carry in Japan.
Troy, you would be crazy to carry such a thing here, no matter what the 'letter of the law' may say. The cultural 'common sense' here says that normal people have absolutely no need to be carrying any such item on the street (excluding backpacking, etc.), and only those with criminal intent would do so.
Without knowing what the guy in the original link was actually carrying in his pocket, it's not really possible to comment too deeply on the incident; maybe the cops over-reacted, or maybe the guy was outfitted for hunting bear ... hopefully we'll get an update soon.
posted by woodblock100 at 11:49 PM on August 7, 2009
Troy, you would be crazy to carry such a thing here, no matter what the 'letter of the law' may say. The cultural 'common sense' here says that normal people have absolutely no need to be carrying any such item on the street (excluding backpacking, etc.), and only those with criminal intent would do so.
Without knowing what the guy in the original link was actually carrying in his pocket, it's not really possible to comment too deeply on the incident; maybe the cops over-reacted, or maybe the guy was outfitted for hunting bear ... hopefully we'll get an update soon.
posted by woodblock100 at 11:49 PM on August 7, 2009
tachi...
tachi...
I suppose something like this would also not be permitted.
posted by nervousfritz at 11:57 PM on August 7, 2009
tachi...
I suppose something like this would also not be permitted.
posted by nervousfritz at 11:57 PM on August 7, 2009
Please do not let this deter anyone intending to visit Japan, since you will almost certainly have a trouble-free experience, even if you deal with the police.
That was my personal experience in Japan earlier this year.
That said, I must have been the only gaijin not hassled by the police in the train station at Narita airport the evening I arrived. Waiting for the train to come, I watched as these two cops walked along the platform questioning every foreigner around me asking for their ID and occasionally getting them to open their backpacks. I'm not sure why they didn't question me — perhaps because I was alone and had only my suitcase — but it was rather unnerving.
The FPP and post at debito.org aren't about the validity of the weapons laws, despite the ensuing discussion here. Chill out, this is Japan, no one's taking away your hunting knife. What it's about is the idea that the cops are unfairly targeting foreigners. Prejudice-based profiling and unequal treatment by law enforcement is not unique to Japan, and it tends to fall along the lines of whatever larger societal prejudices exist. I enjoyed my time in Japan, and my poor language skills and unfamiliarity with customs and conventions were by and large met with understanding and patience beyond the call of duty. Still, more than any first world country I've been to it's hard to forget that as a foreigner you are fundamentally different, a sentiment shared by friends who have lived and work there and speak the language fluently.
Now that I think about it (it didn't cross my mind at the time), I spent a day walking around Shinjuku and Ueno Park with an 8 inch chef's knife in my bag. Huh.
posted by teem at 12:03 AM on August 8, 2009
That was my personal experience in Japan earlier this year.
That said, I must have been the only gaijin not hassled by the police in the train station at Narita airport the evening I arrived. Waiting for the train to come, I watched as these two cops walked along the platform questioning every foreigner around me asking for their ID and occasionally getting them to open their backpacks. I'm not sure why they didn't question me — perhaps because I was alone and had only my suitcase — but it was rather unnerving.
The FPP and post at debito.org aren't about the validity of the weapons laws, despite the ensuing discussion here. Chill out, this is Japan, no one's taking away your hunting knife. What it's about is the idea that the cops are unfairly targeting foreigners. Prejudice-based profiling and unequal treatment by law enforcement is not unique to Japan, and it tends to fall along the lines of whatever larger societal prejudices exist. I enjoyed my time in Japan, and my poor language skills and unfamiliarity with customs and conventions were by and large met with understanding and patience beyond the call of duty. Still, more than any first world country I've been to it's hard to forget that as a foreigner you are fundamentally different, a sentiment shared by friends who have lived and work there and speak the language fluently.
Now that I think about it (it didn't cross my mind at the time), I spent a day walking around Shinjuku and Ueno Park with an 8 inch chef's knife in my bag. Huh.
posted by teem at 12:03 AM on August 8, 2009
I suppose something like this would also not be permitted.
If you wish to try it, the information you will need is here (an interesting read, actually).
posted by woodblock100 at 12:05 AM on August 8, 2009
If you wish to try it, the information you will need is here (an interesting read, actually).
posted by woodblock100 at 12:05 AM on August 8, 2009
I would never want to carry something like that in public. But you've piqued my interest and your link is broken.
posted by nervousfritz at 12:13 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by nervousfritz at 12:13 AM on August 8, 2009
link is broken
My apologies ... here is the correct page. The section entitled "Toto, I've A Feeling We're Not In Kansas Anymore" makes for interesting reading ...
posted by woodblock100 at 12:15 AM on August 8, 2009
My apologies ... here is the correct page. The section entitled "Toto, I've A Feeling We're Not In Kansas Anymore" makes for interesting reading ...
posted by woodblock100 at 12:15 AM on August 8, 2009
Vorfeed: Ignorance of common sense is not an excuse -- it's an explanation for these bullshit "weapons" laws...
"Common sense" in Japan, the UK, and other countries includes aggressive weapon control, including both guns AND bladed weapons. Although I haven't taken the time to examine the numbers, I'd imagine that the per-capita number of violent crimes in Japan or the UK is far lower than in the US or Canada; I'd also imagine their murder rates would be lower. I'd like you to re-consider your application of the term "bullshit" once you've looked at the statistics concerning lives lost.
Armage: Lots of laws don't get published - just google "Blue Laws" for a sense of the general restrictions out there challenging logic. In many cases, the law regarding mandatory punishment seems excessive considering the crime - but that's not a negotiable factor. Ignorance of the law can't be considered if a law is to be applied uniformly.
posted by Graygorey at 12:28 AM on August 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
"Common sense" in Japan, the UK, and other countries includes aggressive weapon control, including both guns AND bladed weapons. Although I haven't taken the time to examine the numbers, I'd imagine that the per-capita number of violent crimes in Japan or the UK is far lower than in the US or Canada; I'd also imagine their murder rates would be lower. I'd like you to re-consider your application of the term "bullshit" once you've looked at the statistics concerning lives lost.
Armage: Lots of laws don't get published - just google "Blue Laws" for a sense of the general restrictions out there challenging logic. In many cases, the law regarding mandatory punishment seems excessive considering the crime - but that's not a negotiable factor. Ignorance of the law can't be considered if a law is to be applied uniformly.
posted by Graygorey at 12:28 AM on August 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
ach, watching the NPA info piece I see this, where the official guy says even if the knife isn't banned under the new laws, casual carry isn't allowed (you've got to have a proper reason to be carrying the knife around).
posted by @troy at 12:33 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by @troy at 12:33 AM on August 8, 2009
all this sword talk is making want to watch The Challenge, the best movie not already on DVD.
posted by @troy at 12:48 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by @troy at 12:48 AM on August 8, 2009
Check out this comment on debito.org:
posted by delmoi at 12:55 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I went to a Koban in the same area a couple weeks earlier to ask for directions, and I was shocked at how rude the young cop there was to me. I have had much worse experiences, but it was probably my worst Koban encounter ever. That Koban was on the same street as the Muji around Shinjuku 3chome, and I wonder if it was the same one. Had I not been in a hurry I would have educated him about what kind of language is appropriate to use with strangers who are older than oneself, but I was moving and in a hurry.-- bobCan you imagine someone doing that in the U.S? They'd probably get tasered.
posted by delmoi at 12:55 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
The section entitled "Toto, I've A Feeling We're Not In Kansas Anymore" makes for interesting reading ...
There's a really fascinating Japanese film called I just didn't do it, about an innocent guy who is wrongly accused of groping a teenager's ass on a crowded train.
If the film is accurate, the Japanese criminal justice system appears to work like this: if you did grope the teenage ass, you admit to doing it immediately, pay a couple of thousand yen in restitution and you're back on the streets in a couple of hours.
If you're genuinely innocent though, you'll be held for several weeks while the prosecution investigates. Then, if they make a decision to prosecute, you'll be held for a few months while awaiting a court trial.
However, because of the importance of 'face' in Japanese culture, if you have been charged, there needs to be overwhelming evidence of your innocence before you get a guilty verdict. Something insane like 99.5% of everyone charged gets convicted. So the innocent are stuck in this Kafkasque trap where everything conspires towards having them plead guilty regardless of whether they actually did it or not, to preserve the face of the police officers, the prosecutors and the judges.
The fact that thousands of innocent people must be wrongly convicted every year seems to be a small price to pay to save these people from minor embarrassment.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:06 AM on August 8, 2009
There's a really fascinating Japanese film called I just didn't do it, about an innocent guy who is wrongly accused of groping a teenager's ass on a crowded train.
If the film is accurate, the Japanese criminal justice system appears to work like this: if you did grope the teenage ass, you admit to doing it immediately, pay a couple of thousand yen in restitution and you're back on the streets in a couple of hours.
If you're genuinely innocent though, you'll be held for several weeks while the prosecution investigates. Then, if they make a decision to prosecute, you'll be held for a few months while awaiting a court trial.
However, because of the importance of 'face' in Japanese culture, if you have been charged, there needs to be overwhelming evidence of your innocence before you get a guilty verdict. Something insane like 99.5% of everyone charged gets convicted. So the innocent are stuck in this Kafkasque trap where everything conspires towards having them plead guilty regardless of whether they actually did it or not, to preserve the face of the police officers, the prosecutors and the judges.
The fact that thousands of innocent people must be wrongly convicted every year seems to be a small price to pay to save these people from minor embarrassment.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:06 AM on August 8, 2009
In Hungary (and in France, actually) guys often carry their own competitively hefty pocket knives for eating... especially for cutting sausages and bacon at lunch stands. When my Dad was visiting it really freaked him out to watch me pull out my huge Opinel at a restaurant and start cutting meat. He's an ex-NYC cop, and so he has internalized the old New York City Cop codes of what constitutes a weapon... and any knife longer than three fingers wide is the same as flashing a pistol to him. On the other hand, every time my band flies abroad I have to deal with the utter helplessness of five Hungarian guys trying to eat without using their own knives.
My Tokyo-born GF says that there is always some kind of weapon-of-the-week focus happening in Japanese crime prevention. It's not that the Japanese never commit crimes - it's that the Japanese cops can profile and predict Japanese perps much more accurately than they can gaijin types. We foreigners are more of a tabula rasa to them, thus the carpet sweeps.
posted by zaelic at 2:09 AM on August 8, 2009
My Tokyo-born GF says that there is always some kind of weapon-of-the-week focus happening in Japanese crime prevention. It's not that the Japanese never commit crimes - it's that the Japanese cops can profile and predict Japanese perps much more accurately than they can gaijin types. We foreigners are more of a tabula rasa to them, thus the carpet sweeps.
posted by zaelic at 2:09 AM on August 8, 2009
"I'm sorry, but a bog-standard, palm-length pocketknife or multi-tool is something everyone ought to carry on a daily basis, not something we should be arresting people for. Ignorance of common sense is not an excuse -- it's an explanation for these bullshit 'weapons' laws..."
Just as an FYI a palm length pocket knife is illegal many places in the states, especially if it locks. The 3.25" pointy blade on my leatherman, which locks, would be illegal in CA (felony if not open carried), Atlanta, RI, maybe WA. My palm is about 4.5" long. Many States break over at 4" and that list would be much longer if Leatherman put a 4.1" blade on the surge. Its length is probably not an accident.
posted by Mitheral at 2:15 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just as an FYI a palm length pocket knife is illegal many places in the states, especially if it locks. The 3.25" pointy blade on my leatherman, which locks, would be illegal in CA (felony if not open carried), Atlanta, RI, maybe WA. My palm is about 4.5" long. Many States break over at 4" and that list would be much longer if Leatherman put a 4.1" blade on the surge. Its length is probably not an accident.
posted by Mitheral at 2:15 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
"I'm sorry, but a bog-standard, palm-length pocketknife or multi-tool is something everyone ought to carry on a daily basis, not something we should be arresting people for."
Why? The only times I use a sharp knife in day-to-day life is when I'm cooking or if I'm cutting stuff in the lab or office. In either case, a pocket knife wouldn't help me and there are better tools (clean knife, sterile scalpel, scissors) immediately at hand. I imagine that almost anyone whose job doesn't involve building or repairing stuff is much the same. The only time that carrying a knife feels useful to me is when I'm diving; even then I'd probably be better off with a more specialised tool like shears or a line cutter.
I'm not saying I think they should be banned, just that I think it's an odd assertion that everyone should carry one.
posted by metaBugs at 3:51 AM on August 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
Why? The only times I use a sharp knife in day-to-day life is when I'm cooking or if I'm cutting stuff in the lab or office. In either case, a pocket knife wouldn't help me and there are better tools (clean knife, sterile scalpel, scissors) immediately at hand. I imagine that almost anyone whose job doesn't involve building or repairing stuff is much the same. The only time that carrying a knife feels useful to me is when I'm diving; even then I'd probably be better off with a more specialised tool like shears or a line cutter.
I'm not saying I think they should be banned, just that I think it's an odd assertion that everyone should carry one.
posted by metaBugs at 3:51 AM on August 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
[herikutsu deleted]
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:26 AM on August 8, 2009
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:26 AM on August 8, 2009
I'm not saying I think they should be banned, just that I think it's an odd assertion that everyone should carry one.
I've carried one of these every day for over thirty years. And I've never attacked anyone who was Japanese.
Should everyone carry one? No, some people would cut themselves closing the darned thing. But my dad taught me to fix things rather than throw them away, and to do that, you need good tools. I've used that little Buck knife more than any tool I own.
posted by Enron Hubbard at 6:04 AM on August 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
I've carried one of these every day for over thirty years. And I've never attacked anyone who was Japanese.
Should everyone carry one? No, some people would cut themselves closing the darned thing. But my dad taught me to fix things rather than throw them away, and to do that, you need good tools. I've used that little Buck knife more than any tool I own.
posted by Enron Hubbard at 6:04 AM on August 8, 2009 [3 favorites]
I don't have the link, but I recall seeing a specially designed "anti stab" knife with a rounded end to prevent stabbening.
One wonders if they'll ban lighters next in order to prevent burninating.
posted by Pragmatica at 6:10 AM on August 8, 2009
One wonders if they'll ban lighters next in order to prevent burninating.
posted by Pragmatica at 6:10 AM on August 8, 2009
This 74-year old was probably just coming back to Japan to settle some old scores.
Police report and photo of suspect.
posted by rokusan at 7:25 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Police report and photo of suspect.
posted by rokusan at 7:25 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Americans should be accustomed to this asinine enforcement down to the centimeter after traveling with the TSA. I recently had a 90% empty tube of toothpaste seized because the printed volume was 8.2 oz. Clearly, it had less than the allowed 3 oz.
Also, many universities use this same rigid enforcement of pocket knives on campus. A 2.5" blade can result in a felony arrest.
posted by Andy's Gross Wart at 7:50 AM on August 8, 2009
Also, many universities use this same rigid enforcement of pocket knives on campus. A 2.5" blade can result in a felony arrest.
posted by Andy's Gross Wart at 7:50 AM on August 8, 2009
Quoted from the blog:
So you see this thing goes both ways.
posted by shii at 8:10 AM on August 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
“In case of the 74-year-old man he clearly brought an illegal knife to Japan before Jan. 5, so it was illegal for him to possess it July 1.”Also, I can collaborate this claim:
Hmmm. So an old man stays for six months as a tourist, when tourist visas last for three months.
How strange!
If the film is accurate, the Japanese criminal justice system appears to work like this: if you did grope the teenage ass, you admit to doing it immediately, pay a couple of thousand yen in restitution and you're back on the streets in a couple of hours.When I was in Japan my program leader (also an old man) was arrested for riding a stolen bike. They knew a gaijin bike thief was in the area so they decided it was him. He insisted the bike was borrowed from a friend's house but the police found the name didn't match the house owner's and insisted that he confess. So, he sat in the police box for several hours while they interrogated him about all the bikes he might have stolen. Eventually the shadows grow long and they tell him they will take him to jail, so he agrees to confess and they let him walk back home (40 minutes). Finally his wife, who is Japanese, gets his voicemail about being arrested, and immediately determines that this is the house owner's son's bike. She calls up the police and demands an in-person apology, for they have made him lose face by confessing to a crime he didn't do. So my elderly program leader finally gets back to the house, opens the door, and the entire police box he had left behind 40 minutes ago was standing there bowing in disgrace.
If you're genuinely innocent though, you'll be held for several weeks while the prosecution investigates. Then, if they make a decision to prosecute, you'll be held for a few months while awaiting a court trial.
So you see this thing goes both ways.
posted by shii at 8:10 AM on August 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
the law regarding mandatory punishment
There is nothing that mandates punishment for breaking this law. As I said before, it comes down to whether the police wish to make a serious issue out of it. They could use their judgement and decide that a 74-year old man carrying a pocket knife is not a threat, confiscate the knife, and send him on his way with a warning. Arresting him was the other extreme on the decision scale, and may have been a way to "set an example." (An example to whom, I have no idea. The instigator of the massacre that caused the most recent revision in the law and the consequent increase in visible enforcement was, IIRC, Japanese, not a foreign tourist. But I digress.)
The trouble is that, in Japan at least, these laws are rarely applied uniformly, and with less remedy by the courts than in the West. That's one of the issues with he justice system here: it is not as transparent as it is in the West, as other posters have mentioned with regard to the courts.
Although he injects his own experience and bias into it, I highly recommend you peruse the archives on Debito.org. I guarantee you will learn something about law enforcement and the justice system in Japan.
posted by armage at 8:18 AM on August 8, 2009
There is nothing that mandates punishment for breaking this law. As I said before, it comes down to whether the police wish to make a serious issue out of it. They could use their judgement and decide that a 74-year old man carrying a pocket knife is not a threat, confiscate the knife, and send him on his way with a warning. Arresting him was the other extreme on the decision scale, and may have been a way to "set an example." (An example to whom, I have no idea. The instigator of the massacre that caused the most recent revision in the law and the consequent increase in visible enforcement was, IIRC, Japanese, not a foreign tourist. But I digress.)
The trouble is that, in Japan at least, these laws are rarely applied uniformly, and with less remedy by the courts than in the West. That's one of the issues with he justice system here: it is not as transparent as it is in the West, as other posters have mentioned with regard to the courts.
Although he injects his own experience and bias into it, I highly recommend you peruse the archives on Debito.org. I guarantee you will learn something about law enforcement and the justice system in Japan.
posted by armage at 8:18 AM on August 8, 2009
Now I feel compelled to shine a light on the fact that Japan is a horrible place to visit and extremely unsafe if you are not Japanese. It's astounding that a tourist in Japan has more to fear from the Japanese government or national police force than the citizenry.
Because what I look for when I'm traveling is a nice, terrifying citizenry.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:56 AM on August 8, 2009
Because what I look for when I'm traveling is a nice, terrifying citizenry.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 8:56 AM on August 8, 2009
Now I feel compelled to shine a light on the fact that Japan is a horrible place to visit and extremely unsafe if you are not Japanese. It's astounding that a tourist in Japan has more to fear from the Japanese government or national police force than the citizenry.
Because what I look for when I'm traveling is a nice, terrifying citizenry.
I think that means that a tourist has more to fear than the average citizen, not that the tourist should be more afraid of the citizens than the govt/police.
posted by kaemaril at 9:29 AM on August 8, 2009
Because what I look for when I'm traveling is a nice, terrifying citizenry.
I think that means that a tourist has more to fear than the average citizen, not that the tourist should be more afraid of the citizens than the govt/police.
posted by kaemaril at 9:29 AM on August 8, 2009
Why? The only times I use a sharp knife in day-to-day life is when I'm cooking or if I'm cutting stuff in the lab or office. In either case, a pocket knife wouldn't help me and there are better tools (clean knife, sterile scalpel, scissors) immediately at hand. I imagine that almost anyone whose job doesn't involve building or repairing stuff is much the same.
I write code for a living, so no building or repairing stuff. I use my knife at least once a day -- just this week I've used it to open mail, to pop open the lock on the bathroom stall when some asshole had locked it behind her, to open several of those stupid plastic bubble-packs, and to fix the inside of a busted deadbolt on my front door. And, of course, I lend it whenever somebody asks for it... because the funny thing is, the "I only use a sharp knife when I'm cooking or cutting stuff" people ask whether somebody has a knife on a regular basis, because their "there are better tools immediately at hand" assumption often breaks down in public.
That said, perhaps the best reason why everyone should carry one is here. Sometimes, when someone asks if anyone has a knife, a "no" answer could kill. Preparedness pays.
"Common sense" in Japan, the UK, and other countries includes aggressive weapon control, including both guns AND bladed weapons.
I mainly meant the US when I said that; if people in Japan and the UK really want to control knives to this degree, good for them. I still think it's bullshit, but at least it's their bullshit.
However, "just as an FYI a palm length pocket knife is illegal many places in the states, especially if it locks. The 3.25" pointy blade on my leatherman, which locks, would be illegal in CA (felony if not open carried), Atlanta, RI, maybe WA" is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to -- there is pretty much no other way to put "carrying a little multi-tool in your pocket is a felony in some states", other than bullshit. Glad I live in the Southwest.
posted by vorfeed at 9:51 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
I write code for a living, so no building or repairing stuff. I use my knife at least once a day -- just this week I've used it to open mail, to pop open the lock on the bathroom stall when some asshole had locked it behind her, to open several of those stupid plastic bubble-packs, and to fix the inside of a busted deadbolt on my front door. And, of course, I lend it whenever somebody asks for it... because the funny thing is, the "I only use a sharp knife when I'm cooking or cutting stuff" people ask whether somebody has a knife on a regular basis, because their "there are better tools immediately at hand" assumption often breaks down in public.
That said, perhaps the best reason why everyone should carry one is here. Sometimes, when someone asks if anyone has a knife, a "no" answer could kill. Preparedness pays.
"Common sense" in Japan, the UK, and other countries includes aggressive weapon control, including both guns AND bladed weapons.
I mainly meant the US when I said that; if people in Japan and the UK really want to control knives to this degree, good for them. I still think it's bullshit, but at least it's their bullshit.
However, "just as an FYI a palm length pocket knife is illegal many places in the states, especially if it locks. The 3.25" pointy blade on my leatherman, which locks, would be illegal in CA (felony if not open carried), Atlanta, RI, maybe WA" is exactly the sort of thing I was referring to -- there is pretty much no other way to put "carrying a little multi-tool in your pocket is a felony in some states", other than bullshit. Glad I live in the Southwest.
posted by vorfeed at 9:51 AM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
How many Americans people actually carry a knife with them as a tool?
Is it a "one hand opening" type knife? Is it a assisted opening knife that is one of the most popular types manufactured today?
Maybe something like a Kershaw Leek? Something from CRKT knives? Perhaps it has a thumb stud knife?
Well, coming soon, those knives might soon be outlawed in the US.
The US. Customs are trying to redefine the Federal Switchblade Act to include any knife that can possibly be opened with one hand.
It's kinda late for a call for action, so do what you can to protect yourself.
There is just too much plastic packaging in this life to not need a pocket knife.
posted by Balisong at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
Is it a "one hand opening" type knife? Is it a assisted opening knife that is one of the most popular types manufactured today?
Maybe something like a Kershaw Leek? Something from CRKT knives? Perhaps it has a thumb stud knife?
Well, coming soon, those knives might soon be outlawed in the US.
The US. Customs are trying to redefine the Federal Switchblade Act to include any knife that can possibly be opened with one hand.
It's kinda late for a call for action, so do what you can to protect yourself.
There is just too much plastic packaging in this life to not need a pocket knife.
posted by Balisong at 11:14 AM on August 8, 2009 [5 favorites]
Although I haven't taken the time to examine the numbers, I'd imagine that the per-capita number of violent crimes in Japan or the UK is far lower than in the US or Canada; I'd also imagine their murder rates would be lower. I'd like you to re-consider your application of the term "bullshit" once you've looked at the statistics concerning lives lost.
The UK (and Ireland, too) have a lot of knife violence. It's not killing a huge number, but a very large number are getting very badly hurt. It's inspired very restrictive laws on knife carrying.
Murder rates are higher in the US than the UK, but it's not so crystal-clear to me that overall violence rates are lower in the UK. I tried looking it up, but I gave it up. Here are stats for England and Wales (Scotland and North Ireland do their own) for 2005/2006 (so called because for whatever reason it's measured starting in September, not because it represents two years.) p.135 of the PDF says there were 230 violent crimes/10000 people. Here's US statistics. For 2006, 1418043 violent crimes and a population of 299398484 yields 47.4 violent crimes per 10000 people.
The England/Wales stats don't include anything against children 16 or under. I haven't dug deeper to find out exactly what else may be excluded in those or the US' numbers, what exactly the definition of a violent crime is, or how one would approach estimating underreporting or underrecording.
In the absence of some serious investigation addressing those things, I'm far from sanguine about just assuming that per capita violent crimes in the UK are lower than the US.
posted by Zed at 11:18 AM on August 8, 2009
The UK (and Ireland, too) have a lot of knife violence. It's not killing a huge number, but a very large number are getting very badly hurt. It's inspired very restrictive laws on knife carrying.
Murder rates are higher in the US than the UK, but it's not so crystal-clear to me that overall violence rates are lower in the UK. I tried looking it up, but I gave it up. Here are stats for England and Wales (Scotland and North Ireland do their own) for 2005/2006 (so called because for whatever reason it's measured starting in September, not because it represents two years.) p.135 of the PDF says there were 230 violent crimes/10000 people. Here's US statistics. For 2006, 1418043 violent crimes and a population of 299398484 yields 47.4 violent crimes per 10000 people.
The England/Wales stats don't include anything against children 16 or under. I haven't dug deeper to find out exactly what else may be excluded in those or the US' numbers, what exactly the definition of a violent crime is, or how one would approach estimating underreporting or underrecording.
In the absence of some serious investigation addressing those things, I'm far from sanguine about just assuming that per capita violent crimes in the UK are lower than the US.
posted by Zed at 11:18 AM on August 8, 2009
To put things into perspective, the RCMP tasered a Polish immigrant to death at Vancouver airport (one of the largest in Canada and on the west coast of North America) because no one at the airport spoke Polish and it was just easier to use a taser on him.
Canadian authorities also have allowed the United States to take Canadian citizens off of planes transiting a United States airport because of suspicions of terrorism.
Sure, Japanese cops are lazy and probably predisposed to take down foreigners, but look at the kind of world we live in post 9-11.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:24 AM on August 8, 2009
Canadian authorities also have allowed the United States to take Canadian citizens off of planes transiting a United States airport because of suspicions of terrorism.
Sure, Japanese cops are lazy and probably predisposed to take down foreigners, but look at the kind of world we live in post 9-11.
posted by KokuRyu at 11:24 AM on August 8, 2009
Balisong: Tactical "Letter Opener" with blood channels. Um yeah.
There is just too much plastic packaging in this life to not need a pocket knife.
My big-ass pair of scissors does a wonder on tamper-resistant packaging. For Amazon boxes, my housekey is more than sufficient.
posted by @troy at 11:24 AM on August 8, 2009
There is just too much plastic packaging in this life to not need a pocket knife.
My big-ass pair of scissors does a wonder on tamper-resistant packaging. For Amazon boxes, my housekey is more than sufficient.
posted by @troy at 11:24 AM on August 8, 2009
Do you carry those big-ass scissors around with you? That would be more suspicious than having a 4" pocket knife.
posted by Balisong at 12:14 PM on August 8, 2009
posted by Balisong at 12:14 PM on August 8, 2009
For Amazon boxes, my housekey is more than sufficient.
Speaking of housekeys, this is all love, and it goes right through airport security on a key chain (unlike a pair of nail clippers, which blows me away, but that's another rant).
posted by Pragmatica at 12:15 PM on August 8, 2009
Speaking of housekeys, this is all love, and it goes right through airport security on a key chain (unlike a pair of nail clippers, which blows me away, but that's another rant).
posted by Pragmatica at 12:15 PM on August 8, 2009
And, where does it say "blood channels"? If your mail bleeds, maybe you are one of the problems, and not part of the solution.
posted by Balisong at 12:17 PM on August 8, 2009
posted by Balisong at 12:17 PM on August 8, 2009
Everyone should carry this around with them.
posted by dirigibleman at 2:12 PM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by dirigibleman at 2:12 PM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Everyone should carry this around with them.
Just so you know, lizardmen with more than one (1) fantasy battleaxe are illegal in many states.
posted by vorfeed at 2:27 PM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
Just so you know, lizardmen with more than one (1) fantasy battleaxe are illegal in many states.
posted by vorfeed at 2:27 PM on August 8, 2009 [1 favorite]
How many Americans people actually carry a knife with them as a tool?
Evidently not enough. This spring a woman died on an elevator at an MBTA station when her clothing became entangled in the elevator. Several people tried to assist, but they were reportedly unable to secure a knife to cut the woman loose before it was too late.
I carry a pocket knife every day. Usually it's a small non-locking Opinel knife. I've carried the same model for nearly 25 years. My American colleagues are often surprised when I use the knife, my European colleagues are usually pleased to see such a familiar tool. If I'm in the woods or someplace where I want a more substantial knife, I usually carry the Ken Onion Leek that Balisong mentioned upthread.
posted by ArgentineBlonde at 4:51 PM on August 8, 2009
Evidently not enough. This spring a woman died on an elevator at an MBTA station when her clothing became entangled in the elevator. Several people tried to assist, but they were reportedly unable to secure a knife to cut the woman loose before it was too late.
I carry a pocket knife every day. Usually it's a small non-locking Opinel knife. I've carried the same model for nearly 25 years. My American colleagues are often surprised when I use the knife, my European colleagues are usually pleased to see such a familiar tool. If I'm in the woods or someplace where I want a more substantial knife, I usually carry the Ken Onion Leek that Balisong mentioned upthread.
posted by ArgentineBlonde at 4:51 PM on August 8, 2009
I have carried a pocket-knife since I was eight years old. Nothing fancy or that expensive. My first was a 2 inch Case double-blade. I retired it because it had sentimental value and didn't attach on a key chain. For the last 20 years I have been using a Victorinox stainless keyring knife. It doesn't have much cutting power, but it's there when I need it, which happens to be quite a bit.
posted by mrmojoflying at 5:59 PM on August 8, 2009
posted by mrmojoflying at 5:59 PM on August 8, 2009
Do you carry those big-ass scissors around with you? That would be more suspicious than having a 4" pocket knife.
I only carry the keys, the wallet, and my phone when I'm expecting a call. If I ever get accidentally encased in tamper-proof plastic then I'm fucked, yes.
Not that I think the US should crack down on jack knives. I believe we do have common law rights to be let alone, and knives are foremost tools. Tactical knives and the like could use a good banning perhaps just to fuck with the criminal element more.
posted by @troy at 6:23 PM on August 8, 2009
I only carry the keys, the wallet, and my phone when I'm expecting a call. If I ever get accidentally encased in tamper-proof plastic then I'm fucked, yes.
Not that I think the US should crack down on jack knives. I believe we do have common law rights to be let alone, and knives are foremost tools. Tactical knives and the like could use a good banning perhaps just to fuck with the criminal element more.
posted by @troy at 6:23 PM on August 8, 2009
Yeah, because if there's one thing that a criminal will abide by it's a formal ban of something.
posted by Balisong at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by Balisong at 6:46 PM on August 8, 2009 [2 favorites]
Duh, that should be 'escalator', not 'elevator'.
posted by ArgentineBlonde at 7:19 PM on August 8, 2009
posted by ArgentineBlonde at 7:19 PM on August 8, 2009
We should get rid of laws altogether. Criminals will break them, anyway.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:06 AM on August 9, 2009
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:06 AM on August 9, 2009
I've never heard that twisted of a strawman, Blazecock Pileon. You should base a comedy routine on it.
posted by tehloki at 11:01 AM on August 9, 2009
posted by tehloki at 11:01 AM on August 9, 2009
"However, because of the importance of 'face' in Japanese culture, if you have been charged, there needs to be overwhelming evidence of your innocence before you get a guilty verdict. Something insane like 99.5% of everyone charged gets convicted."
It's not an issue of face as far as I can tell, it's an issue of overwhelming trust in the police. You aren't found guilty because the judge doesn't want to embarrass the police department, you're found guilty because "if you weren't guilty, the police wouldn't have decided to prosecute".
"It's about time the Japanese government and people treated foreigners like human beings not unlike themselves — with respect and humility."
My friend (Japanese) got fined and narrowly avoided arrest for having a box-cutter in the dashboard of his car. So, yeah, it looks to me that Japanese cops, in this case at least, are treating foreigners like human beings not unlike themselves. The difference is that when the cops do something fucked up to a Japanese person, they write it up on their own blog (or Mixi) in Japanese, hence it never hits the English blogosphere, hence people who read English blogs more than Japanese blogs don't come across it.
A better example of Japanese treating foreigners differently would be the deal where a policeman has never stopped me on the street and asked to see my papers (I'm white) but my colleague got stopped at least monthly (he's from Bangladesh). But not this knife case.
posted by Bugbread at 4:16 PM on August 9, 2009 [3 favorites]
It's not an issue of face as far as I can tell, it's an issue of overwhelming trust in the police. You aren't found guilty because the judge doesn't want to embarrass the police department, you're found guilty because "if you weren't guilty, the police wouldn't have decided to prosecute".
"It's about time the Japanese government and people treated foreigners like human beings not unlike themselves — with respect and humility."
My friend (Japanese) got fined and narrowly avoided arrest for having a box-cutter in the dashboard of his car. So, yeah, it looks to me that Japanese cops, in this case at least, are treating foreigners like human beings not unlike themselves. The difference is that when the cops do something fucked up to a Japanese person, they write it up on their own blog (or Mixi) in Japanese, hence it never hits the English blogosphere, hence people who read English blogs more than Japanese blogs don't come across it.
A better example of Japanese treating foreigners differently would be the deal where a policeman has never stopped me on the street and asked to see my papers (I'm white) but my colleague got stopped at least monthly (he's from Bangladesh). But not this knife case.
posted by Bugbread at 4:16 PM on August 9, 2009 [3 favorites]
My friend (Japanese) got fined and narrowly avoided arrest for having a box-cutter in the dashboard of his car. So, yeah, it looks to me that Japanese cops, in this case at least, are treating foreigners like human beings not unlike themselves.
There's an obvious difference between getting fined and arrested because you had a weapon in your car (which was found while you were stopped for some other infraction, presumably) and being fined and arrested because you stopped at a koban to ask directions, and the cop decided to make that into an opportunity for an arrest.
If the cop was asking everybody who walked in the door about knives, that's one thing... but if it was just the gaijin, that's another. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell from the story.
posted by vorfeed at 5:27 PM on August 9, 2009
There's an obvious difference between getting fined and arrested because you had a weapon in your car (which was found while you were stopped for some other infraction, presumably) and being fined and arrested because you stopped at a koban to ask directions, and the cop decided to make that into an opportunity for an arrest.
If the cop was asking everybody who walked in the door about knives, that's one thing... but if it was just the gaijin, that's another. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell from the story.
posted by vorfeed at 5:27 PM on August 9, 2009
The difference is that when the cops do something fucked up to a Japanese person, they write it up on their own blog (or Mixi) in Japanese, hence it never hits the English blogosphere, hence people who read English blogs more than Japanese blogs don't come across it.
Exactly.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:47 PM on August 9, 2009
Exactly.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:47 PM on August 9, 2009
"There's an obvious difference between getting fined and arrested because you had a weapon in your car (which was found while you were stopped for some other infraction, presumably) and being fined and arrested because you stopped at a koban to ask directions"
Well, first, a box cutter is less of a weapon than a knife. A box cutter is a designated tool. Heck, it doesn't even have a real name: instead, its name is its function. And the box cutter (unlike the knife we're discussing) is legal to own, it's just that it must be "secured", which means "inside your house", "still inside the package", or "somewhere the policeman thinks is reasonable". I would have guessed "box cutter in pocket = bad" and "box cutter in glove compartment = good", but apparently the cop thought "box cutter in glove compartment = bad" and "box cutter in trunk = good". So the difference is a lot less obvious to me. And he wasn't stopped for an infraction. The car was parked, and he was doing some night photography. Understandably suspicious looking, so the cop stopping him isn't really hard to understand, but a far cry from "he was being stopped by the police for an infraction and was carrying a weapon".
"If the cop was asking everybody who walked in the door about knives, that's one thing... but if it was just the gaijin, that's another."
Entirely agreed. Unfortunately, we don't have any info on that.
posted by Bugbread at 1:52 PM on August 10, 2009
Well, first, a box cutter is less of a weapon than a knife. A box cutter is a designated tool. Heck, it doesn't even have a real name: instead, its name is its function. And the box cutter (unlike the knife we're discussing) is legal to own, it's just that it must be "secured", which means "inside your house", "still inside the package", or "somewhere the policeman thinks is reasonable". I would have guessed "box cutter in pocket = bad" and "box cutter in glove compartment = good", but apparently the cop thought "box cutter in glove compartment = bad" and "box cutter in trunk = good". So the difference is a lot less obvious to me. And he wasn't stopped for an infraction. The car was parked, and he was doing some night photography. Understandably suspicious looking, so the cop stopping him isn't really hard to understand, but a far cry from "he was being stopped by the police for an infraction and was carrying a weapon".
"If the cop was asking everybody who walked in the door about knives, that's one thing... but if it was just the gaijin, that's another."
Entirely agreed. Unfortunately, we don't have any info on that.
posted by Bugbread at 1:52 PM on August 10, 2009
"The car was parked, and he was doing some night photography. Understandably suspicious looking, so the cop stopping him isn't really hard to understand,"
I don't think that's suspicious at all but that's a rant for a another day. That it is reasonable to harass people for taking pictures is sad.
posted by Mitheral at 3:56 PM on August 10, 2009
I don't think that's suspicious at all but that's a rant for a another day. That it is reasonable to harass people for taking pictures is sad.
posted by Mitheral at 3:56 PM on August 10, 2009
I'm guessing that they stopped him because they found him suspicious, but they didn't harass him because he was taking pictures. The whole "taking pictures = terrorist" meme never really reached Japan. The harassment probably came from the long hair (yes, that's an equally, if not greater, sad reason for harassment).
posted by Bugbread at 4:13 PM on August 10, 2009
posted by Bugbread at 4:13 PM on August 10, 2009
Well, first, a box cutter is less of a weapon than a knife. A box cutter is a designated tool. Heck, it doesn't even have a real name: instead, its name is its function. And the box cutter (unlike the knife we're discussing) is legal to own, it's just that it must be "secured", which means "inside your house", "still inside the package", or "somewhere the policeman thinks is reasonable".
The problem is that none of that is based in reason. For one thing, a box cutter actually makes a much more dangerous weapon than a single-blade pocketknife. The latter typically aren't all that sharp; the former is a handle with a fuckin' razor in it! I'd take an attacker with your average folding pocketknife over a box cutter any day.
Frankly, it makes just as much sense to call a pocketknife a "tool" as it does a box cutter, if not more so. People have been carrying folding knives as general-purpose tools for millennia, and it's still quite common in many countries; how many people have you heard of who habitually carry a box cutter? Just because they sell them "as a tool" at Lowe's (right next to their selection of pocketknives, actually) doesn't change their form and function. And many of the most popular pocketknives these days, like the Leatherman mentioned above, are marketed and designed to be used as tools, anyway. They don't put a pair of pliers and a screwdriver on it because it's "a weapon".
Sorry, but it makes no sense that this is a "weapon" and this is a "tool". They're both tools, whether or not society has a bug up its ass with regard to the former, and while both can be used as a weapon, the former is not intended as such, any more than the latter is.
There are plenty of knives which are designed to be weapons -- like the dagger the Akihabara attacker used -- but folding single-blade pocketknives aren't among them... thus the difference between "seven fatally stabbed" and "six people sustained minor injuries".
posted by vorfeed at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2009
The problem is that none of that is based in reason. For one thing, a box cutter actually makes a much more dangerous weapon than a single-blade pocketknife. The latter typically aren't all that sharp; the former is a handle with a fuckin' razor in it! I'd take an attacker with your average folding pocketknife over a box cutter any day.
Frankly, it makes just as much sense to call a pocketknife a "tool" as it does a box cutter, if not more so. People have been carrying folding knives as general-purpose tools for millennia, and it's still quite common in many countries; how many people have you heard of who habitually carry a box cutter? Just because they sell them "as a tool" at Lowe's (right next to their selection of pocketknives, actually) doesn't change their form and function. And many of the most popular pocketknives these days, like the Leatherman mentioned above, are marketed and designed to be used as tools, anyway. They don't put a pair of pliers and a screwdriver on it because it's "a weapon".
Sorry, but it makes no sense that this is a "weapon" and this is a "tool". They're both tools, whether or not society has a bug up its ass with regard to the former, and while both can be used as a weapon, the former is not intended as such, any more than the latter is.
There are plenty of knives which are designed to be weapons -- like the dagger the Akihabara attacker used -- but folding single-blade pocketknives aren't among them... thus the difference between "seven fatally stabbed" and "six people sustained minor injuries".
posted by vorfeed at 8:42 AM on August 11, 2009
I didn't mean to say "a knife is more of a weapon than a box cutter, so they should totally have busted the old guy with the knife", I just meant "to say it's crazy to bust a guy with a knife but it that it makes sense to bust a guy with a box cutter is silly".
"People have been carrying folding knives as general-purpose tools for millennia, and it's still quite common in many countries; how many people have you heard of who habitually carry a box cutter?"
I totally agree with your rhetorical point, so I'm not saying this to refute you, but for me personally, I have never known people who habitually carried knives, but I've known a few people who habitually carried exacto blades in their backpacks (in America). Also keep in mind box cutters are way, way more popular here in Japan. Even little kids use them. You can buy them in any convenience store.
posted by Bugbread at 9:24 AM on August 11, 2009
"People have been carrying folding knives as general-purpose tools for millennia, and it's still quite common in many countries; how many people have you heard of who habitually carry a box cutter?"
I totally agree with your rhetorical point, so I'm not saying this to refute you, but for me personally, I have never known people who habitually carried knives, but I've known a few people who habitually carried exacto blades in their backpacks (in America). Also keep in mind box cutters are way, way more popular here in Japan. Even little kids use them. You can buy them in any convenience store.
posted by Bugbread at 9:24 AM on August 11, 2009
Update: A follow-up story was published in the Japan Times this morning. It seems that the original story was indeed correct - the 74-year old tourist stopped at the police box to ask for directions, admitted to carrying a pocket knife when he was asked if he had one, and spent the next ten days in detention.
The Times also ran a page of letters they received on the topic.
posted by woodblock100 at 6:38 PM on August 25, 2009
The Times also ran a page of letters they received on the topic.
posted by woodblock100 at 6:38 PM on August 25, 2009
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Haha, yeah, good luck with that.
posted by DecemberBoy at 8:23 PM on August 7, 2009 [3 favorites]