Vuvuzela Time!
June 17, 2010 9:07 AM   Subscribe

Vuvuzela time! View any web site like you're at the South Africa World Cup!
posted by GuyZero (107 comments total) 28 users marked this as a favorite
 
This post was deleted for the following reason: BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
posted by sanko at 9:08 AM on June 17, 2010 [5 favorites]


BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZ
posted by Nothing... and like it at 9:09 AM on June 17, 2010


I'm sorry, what?
posted by Nothing... and like it at 9:09 AM on June 17, 2010




Brrrrrrzzzzzzzzzzzz
posted by MidAtlantic at 9:14 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


1 game with vuvuz, kinda funny. 60+ games.. ugh
posted by edgeways at 9:16 AM on June 17, 2010


Yesterday I downloaded a Vuvuzela app for for my iPhone. Later that day I was showing it off to my dad and the app blew out the speaker in the phone :-(

I'm dead serious.
posted by sideshow at 9:16 AM on June 17, 2010 [25 favorites]


When Does The Hurting Stop?
posted by zarq at 9:17 AM on June 17, 2010 [3 favorites]


THE BEES... THEY ARE COMING FOR ME
posted by The Winsome Parker Lewis at 9:18 AM on June 17, 2010 [3 favorites]


Noisemakers?! They should be trying to convince invisible sky fairies to intercede in the game or firing guns into the air like civilized people.
posted by DU at 9:19 AM on June 17, 2010


"I was showing it off to my dad and the app blew out the speaker in the phone."

I wonder if it was actually the transducer or some part of the audio subsystem that failed.
posted by bz at 9:19 AM on June 17, 2010


:sound off:
posted by orme at 9:21 AM on June 17, 2010


I wonder if it was actually the transducer or some part of the audio subsystem that failed.
posted by bz at 12:19 PM on June 17 [+] [!]


WELL YOU WOULD KNOW WOULDNT YOU?
CUT IT OUT
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:22 AM on June 17, 2010 [19 favorites]


If you're watching games on your computer or through your computer to your TV: Vuvuzela Filter - software for both PC and Mac that applies a notch filter to reduce the vuvuzela noise.
posted by sharkfu at 9:22 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


From Felicia Day's twitter account: I keep seeing tweets about vuvezelas or something like that. Is that some new lady product?
posted by adipocere at 9:25 AM on June 17, 2010 [3 favorites]


I am the proud owner of a vuvuzela and it was a *HUGE* hit at my son's last soccer game. I love vuvuzelas!
posted by bluesky43 at 9:26 AM on June 17, 2010


One blogger is mystified over hearing a lot of the buzzing but not seeing many actual vuvuzelas in use.

The first scandal of these games?
posted by Danf at 9:29 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


It's all been orchestrated by the robots as cover for their coming uprising.
posted by lucidium at 9:30 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


"Living in today's complex world of the future is like having bees living in your head. But there they are." — Firesign Theatre

What's All This Brouhaha?
posted by hal9k at 9:31 AM on June 17, 2010


Spanish comic Forges suggests what to do with vuvuzelas and their owners.
posted by Skeptic at 9:31 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


That's shoes for industry, hal9k.
posted by Kinbote at 9:33 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


I think one is kinda annoying. But I also think a whole stadium full is kinda neat, and I hope to someday hear a vuvuzela orchestra play all my favorite Pauline Oliveros, Klaus Schulze and Phill Niblock songs.
posted by box at 9:33 AM on June 17, 2010 [4 favorites]


> I wonder if it was actually the transducer or some part of the audio subsystem that failed.

It just couldn't take it any more, bz.
posted by ardgedee at 9:36 AM on June 17, 2010


oh noes recursive vuvuzela!
posted by wo at 9:36 AM on June 17, 2010 [11 favorites]


South Africa will never be able to host a major sporting event ever again, and the reason cited will always be some variation on "that horrible bee sound." That's a hilarious problem.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:39 AM on June 17, 2010 [14 favorites]


They're already playing my favorite Hans Kennel, albeit speeded up.
posted by ardgedee at 9:40 AM on June 17, 2010


For some reason, every time I read the word vuvuzela, I sing it to the chorus of Bamboleo.
posted by uncleozzy at 9:40 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


It helps to understand the proper use of the Vvvuzela.
posted by orme at 9:44 AM on June 17, 2010 [9 favorites]


The vuvuzela sounds like it should be an ancient and time-honored ethnic instrument, not a cheap plastic bee-horn.
posted by sciurus at 9:46 AM on June 17, 2010


All we have to do is stop saying Haman's name, right?
posted by Bromius at 9:46 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


BECAUSE IT LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE VULVA.
posted by drjimmy11 at 9:47 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


Vuvuzela Radio!
posted by mr.marx at 9:49 AM on June 17, 2010


sonata for vuvuzela
posted by desjardins at 9:50 AM on June 17, 2010 [7 favorites]


What has been the reaction in SA to all the vuvuzela-hate from around the globe?
posted by DU at 9:55 AM on June 17, 2010


You might be a Redneck if you think a Vuvuzela is a part of a womans anatomy.

You paid $200 for a used whot!
posted by Confess, Fletch at 9:58 AM on June 17, 2010


Holy shit, that's what they sound like? Thank god I don't like soccer.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:05 AM on June 17, 2010 [5 favorites]


Even the cheap horns make a semi-decent sound when played alone. It's when you have people all blowing them together at slightly different pitches that creates the familiar buzzing effect.

I'm not joking, I think the binaural effect of the different frequencies is having a physiological effect on the players.

Hence, the number of keepers who have flubbed easy stops.
Hence, the low scoring despite keepers who seem to screw up the easy ones.
Hence, Brazil only beat DPRK 2-1. Wat?
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 10:06 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


I cannot wait until these cross the pond and people start selling them out of shopping carts in front of (American) football stadiums and during the 4th of July.
posted by backseatpilot at 10:13 AM on June 17, 2010


BECAUSE IT LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE VULVA.
posted by drjimmy11 at 12:47 PM on June 17 [+] [!]


Clearly, you've been listening to different vulvae than I have.
posted by neroli at 10:19 AM on June 17, 2010 [4 favorites]


hippybear, that's one of the two quotes that I have had rattling around my head since I was introduced to the vuvuzela. The other was Eddie Izzard's "COVERED IN BEES".
posted by grubi at 10:24 AM on June 17, 2010


"Living in today's complex world of the future is like having bees living in your head. But there they are." — Firesign Theatre

What's All This Brouhaha?


Ha ha ha
posted by grubi at 10:25 AM on June 17, 2010


Bathtub Bobsled---it's all about the balls, man.
posted by TomMelee at 10:26 AM on June 17, 2010


The Horn of Africa®
posted by hal9k at 10:26 AM on June 17, 2010 [10 favorites]


I cannot wait until these cross the pond and people start selling them out of shopping carts in front of (American) football stadiums and during the 4th of July.

Uh... If not for the word "vuvuzela," these have already been in North America for a long time. Over here we call them "You know, those big plastic horns you see at sporting events?" (See also stadium horn.) They're particularly popular at hockey games, where the noise reverberates throughout the enclosed arena. People tend to be a bit more discriminating about when to blow them, though.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:30 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


DU: What has been the reaction in SA to all the vuvuzela-hate from around the globe?

Something like a Bronx cheer, but delivered with a plastic horn.
posted by hangashore at 10:30 AM on June 17, 2010 [6 favorites]


BECAUSE IT LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE VULVA.

If your vulva looks like a three foot horn, you should probably consult a gynecologist.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:33 AM on June 17, 2010 [2 favorites]


People tend to be a bit more discriminating about when to blow them, though.

Only upon receipt of $20.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 10:33 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


It's peanut vuvuzela time!
Peanut vuvuzela time!

Peanut vuvuzela with a BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
posted by dirigibleman at 10:36 AM on June 17, 2010 [3 favorites]


Vuvuzela Hero
posted by rjc3000 at 10:36 AM on June 17, 2010


1 game with vuvuz, kinda funny. 60+ games.. ugh

Yup. Any match with South Africa playing- I can understand the constant buzzing of the horns. Outside of that, it really makes no sense.
posted by L'OM at 10:38 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


A co-worker described setting up his surround speakers for the first Cup game and then spending 40 minutes trying to troubleshoot what technical glitch was causing a loud buzzing in them.
posted by Joe Beese at 10:40 AM on June 17, 2010 [8 favorites]


Zizou hated them, too.
posted by L'OM at 10:49 AM on June 17, 2010 [3 favorites]


I heard that North Korea hired professional Chines vuvuzela players to root for the North Koreans.
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:51 AM on June 17, 2010


Watching a World Cup game is like listening to the ultimate sound mass composition. I realized that the reason the sound is so unnerving to me is that it reminds me of Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima and by extension nuclear holocaust.
posted by invitapriore at 10:54 AM on June 17, 2010 [2 favorites]


If your vulva looks like a three foot horn, you should probably consult a gynecologist.

Also if it sounds like a swarm of bees.
posted by Babblesort at 10:55 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


I really don't mind the sound, to be honest.

Don't like it? Turn the sound off. It's not like you really need the commentary, assuming you have reasonably functional eyes.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:57 AM on June 17, 2010


My two great loves: world cup soccer, and trolling.
posted by Damn That Television at 10:59 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


Hitler is not a fan.
posted by rocket88 at 11:01 AM on June 17, 2010 [3 favorites]


One blogger is mystified over hearing a lot of the buzzing but not seeing many actual vuvuzelas in use.

I have heard that they aren't nearly as annoying in person, because the close ones are distinct from the crowd, plus the general crowd noise that is close to you is louder than the buzzing far away.
posted by smackfu at 11:03 AM on June 17, 2010


Next time America holds an international sporting tournament, we should invent a violin that instead of musical notes plays Arnold Schwarzenegger quotes from Batman and Robin at 120 decibels and also its autotuned.
posted by Damn That Television at 11:05 AM on June 17, 2010 [15 favorites]


Bathtub Bobsled---it's all about the balls, man.

Hmm. I didn't know that. I remember every WC, it seems there's an argument over how many panels there are.

I also find myself forced to retract my "...low scoring" point after hearing about the Argentina game.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 11:14 AM on June 17, 2010


BECAUSE IT LOOKS AND SOUNDS LIKE VULVA.

Well, I guess Yahoo mail thinks so -- I tried to send this link to a friend, and the message bounced. Reason: 554 554 Message not allowed - [PH01] Email not accepted for policy reasons.
posted by JanetLand at 11:19 AM on June 17, 2010


Why the sudden outrage? These things have been around forever. Bart gets drunk when someone sprays green beer down his at a St. Patrick's Day parade in the Beer Baron episode of the Simpsons. And that was at least 13 years ago.
posted by Eideteker at 11:20 AM on June 17, 2010


Gimli is kind of a jerk. (via Reddit)
posted by zippy at 11:24 AM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]




Why the sudden outrage? These things have been around forever. Bart gets drunk when someone sprays green beer down his at a St. Patrick's Day parade in the Beer Baron episode of the Simpsons. And that was at least 13 years ago.

Because Bart didn't get 10,000 people to play the horns over the soundtrack for the next 60 episodes.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 11:29 AM on June 17, 2010 [4 favorites]


Is this supposed to play a sound? Because all it does for me is put a little guy down in the corner of my browser window ...

Also: bzz.
posted by moonbiter at 11:30 AM on June 17, 2010


From the article: "The Post tries out the bain of the World Cup.."
Argh.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:32 AM on June 17, 2010


Also if it sounds like a swarm of bees.

Googling for vuvuzela+vibrator turns up very little, so I think there could be an entrepreneurial opportunity there. (It did lead me to Dildo Shower Mars Swedish Hockey Game though.)
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 11:34 AM on June 17, 2010


furiousxgeorge: Because Bart didn't get 10,000 people to play the horns over the soundtrack for the next 60 episodes.

Though it also does remind me of the time that Bart lines up all the police megaphones and causes a sonic wave that destroys stuff all over town.

Except more annoying.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:38 AM on June 17, 2010 [2 favorites]


Though it also does remind me of the time that Bart lines up all the police megaphones and causes a sonic wave that destroys stuff all over town.

Just the memory of that scene reduces me to helpless laughter.

And reminds me to never, ever show that scene to my kids.
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on June 17, 2010


For anyone who happens to be watching the World Cup from a Mac, Prosoniq VuvuX is a free Apple Audio Unit plugin which apparently filters Vuvuzela noise from a signal.
posted by koeselitz at 12:00 PM on June 17, 2010


The sound has been driving me batshitinsane. I've had to resort to watching the games with the sound off, which isn't that big of a loss considering the tres boring commentators on my channel that keep missing important moves... Worse, they also miss showing them - for example when Poulsen made the devestating Danish own goal, TV4 showed us a totally empty field for a few seconds because "fifa messed up the satellite codes". aargh!
posted by dabitch at 12:01 PM on June 17, 2010


Is anyone watching the ESPN3 web live stream today? It sounds improved today, but maybe I'm just getting used to the vuvuzelas.
posted by Dr. Zira at 12:05 PM on June 17, 2010


These vuvzelas are totally ruining the ambiance of the game. We need to ban them so we can go back to hearing the opposing supporters scream a variety of racist and homophobic chants at each other.
posted by PenDevil at 12:25 PM on June 17, 2010 [5 favorites]


So the happiest fans on earth are at home, watching the events on their circa-80s TVs and stereo systems, one of those with the big heretofore-considered-useless multiband graphic equalizers.

Even some fairly recent and inexpensive home theater systems still have an EQ, buried under multiple menus, but the 80s 19"-wide multiband is exactly what you need here. Get thee to a garage sale, stat!
posted by davejay at 12:26 PM on June 17, 2010


I think they're kind of awesome. I think it's awesome that Africa gets to host its first ever world cup...and they've been happening for ~93 years. I think it's awesome that the Afrikaaners are so excited, and (although I'm not there in person), I think it highlights just how awesome and exciting soccer is to the rest of the world (and for some of us here.)

And seriously, who cares if the French and the Italians don't like it? They're not gonna win anyway, and they're too busy taking dives to notice anyway.
posted by TomMelee at 12:36 PM on June 17, 2010


I hear Lady Gaga is planning a new song around the vuvuzela, with a matching outfit.
posted by The otter lady at 1:04 PM on June 17, 2010


I cannot wait until these cross the pond and people start selling them out of shopping carts in front of (American) football stadiums and during the 4th of July.

In addition to the excellent points made by Sys Rq above, American sport facilities have no problem banning noise makers. At least in the Southeastern Conference (SEC), they're banned with the exception of Mississippi State's cowbells, which are currently on a probation of sorts and may end up vanishing as well.

Incidentally, I had a plastic horn like theses when I was eight or so (in the US).

When I first heard these things I couldn't stand it. Now, it's kind of like tuning out that annoying screaming baby on a long plane ride. Every now and then I'll become alert to the awful buzzing, but usually get back to ignoring it. I keep waiting for some group of anti-vuvuzela people to stage some kind of violent act or at least, throwing the things on the field, to test the FIFA people's remarks about willing to ban them if people go that route.
posted by Atreides at 1:13 PM on June 17, 2010


Interestingly, the Mexico fans in the match that just finished were the first whose songs, chants, and cheering I could clearly hear over the sound of the vuvuzelas. Don't know if the Mexico fans are louder, the vuvuzelas were quieter, or the teevee has gotten better at filtering the sound, but it was a pleasure to hear the actual fans for once in this world cup.
posted by Nothing... and like it at 1:27 PM on June 17, 2010 [2 favorites]


Have we had a proper vuvuzela thread yet? I had CBC radio on the other day and they did a big feature on them. The locals love them, of course. Some people want to ban them because they're distracting and "ruining" the sound of the game, but this raises hackles among the locals who don't want to be told what to do by foreigners and who like the sounds they're making very much, thank you. There are claims the vuvuzela echoes some kind of old tradition about blowing horns and are thus part of South African culture in some way, but really they're made in China and were only introduced ten years ago, so that argument doesn't hold much water. The official decision on the matter came from Sepp Blatter, chief of FIFA, who said they were "part and parcel of African football"; one of CBC's commentators claimed Sepp is a controversial figure and was looking to score populist points among the home fans.

Personally, I have been watching quite a few matches and I've pretty much gotten used to the sound and even enjoy it a little bit now; the sound of the bzzzz when I turn on the game gets me excited about what I'm about to see in the same manner as the dimming of the lights at a movie theater.
posted by PercussivePaul at 1:38 PM on June 17, 2010


Human Centipedes? In my vuvuzela?
posted by panboi at 2:20 PM on June 17, 2010 [4 favorites]


I'm repeating myself from somewhere, but I would rather listen to vuvuzelas all day long than have to endure the drunken, stupid, useless shouts of "In the hole!" at every golf tournament anymore. That has nothing to do with fandom or supporting anyone and everything to do with trying to be the loudest drunk to get his loud, stupid, drunken, unwanted, dim-witted, uncivilized mouth on TV.

And a home game at Arrowhead stadium (or anywhere else in the nfl) features crowd noise *designed* (pumped in, Colts?) to make it hard for the players to communicate. Why is that not worse? Take a baseball fan to their first nfl game and that's the main thing you hear: why does everyone stand and scream the whole time?
posted by umberto at 2:22 PM on June 17, 2010


I like to imagine that the relentless buzzing is due to at least half the spectators having been replaced by Mi-go, who have become obsessed with the World Cup during their long exile on Earth. Downside? They will steal the brains of the best players.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:02 PM on June 17, 2010


I hear Lady Gaga is planning a new song around the vuvuzela, with a matching outfit.

Oh my god, I hope so! You're not just teasing me, are you?
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:12 PM on June 17, 2010


but this raises hackles among the locals who don't want to be told what to do by foreigners and who like the sounds they're making very much, thank you.

Yeah, tough, you asked to host the biggest event for the biggest sport in the world, local concerns sometimes go by the wayside.


Why is that not worse? Take a baseball fan to their first nfl game and that's the main thing you hear: why does everyone stand and scream the whole time?


They don't the whole time, just when the away team is on offense, and even then they take breaks. It's part of the game, the fans use their lungs not noisemakers.

Plus, the sound comes out over TV as just loud white noise, which isn't near annoying as the buzzing.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 3:13 PM on June 17, 2010


"Why the sudden outrage?"

Ohhhh, right. And nothing lets other white hipster douchebags know that you're cool enough to be watching the World Cup like complaining about vuvuzelas loudly, online. That way, you don't even have to worry about knowing any of the scores, or the player names, or any actual facts about the game. I mean, we're all in concert about our hatred for the vuvuzela, right? Except for those who are advanced hipster enough to take the anti-anti-vuvuzela position, but hey, we're still talking about vuvuzelas so we get cred either way, right?

Complaining about the vuvuzela has, in a sense, become its own kind of vuvuzela.
posted by Eideteker at 3:14 PM on June 17, 2010 [5 favorites]


Ya, these horns were a common feature at Hockey games in the 70s and 80s. Of course North Americans are lazy, so we've long since switched to air horns.
posted by Chuckles at 3:26 PM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


These vuvzelas are totally ruining the ambiance of the game. We need to ban them so we can go back to hearing the opposing supporters scream a variety of racist and homophobic chants at each other.


At least the racists and homophobes are letting the game breathe.
posted by L'OM at 3:48 PM on June 17, 2010 [1 favorite]


At least the racists and homophobes are letting the game breathe.

OK, this nailed it. I don't mind the noise, but a game needs to breathe. Good one. Yes.
posted by umberto at 4:02 PM on June 17, 2010


Well if it can't breathe how is it supposed to blow into a vuvuzeBZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
posted by sallybrown at 5:48 PM on June 17, 2010


These things have been around for over 25 years. I remember getting them at Big Red Freakout games, I'm fairly certain both 1983 and 1987 entries are for these plastic horns. I'm sure my parents still have them around the house.

The experience in person isn't the same as on T.V. (at least not when watching college hockey aged 10-14). But, they are indeed loud! You can see how over the years the gifts shifted from cow-bells and horns to scarves and t-shirts. No coincidence there.
posted by meinvt at 7:44 PM on June 17, 2010


Of course, everybody knows it's the clitoreza that counts.

unless there's menstrueza involved
posted by shadytrees at 8:36 PM on June 17, 2010


This is annoyingly fun.
posted by peppito at 9:37 PM on June 17, 2010


Hitler is not a fan

Indeed.
posted by Ljubljana at 11:11 PM on June 17, 2010


Complaining about the vuvuzela has, in a sense, become its own kind of vuvuzela.

A lot like complaining about "hipsters", then, huh?

see, because the people who do it are people to whom all or most of the traits ascribed to "hipsters" apply and who like the same things, but, like, everyone but me is totally a "hipster" for liking that stuff man
posted by DecemberBoy at 4:08 AM on June 18, 2010


Atreides: " At least in the Southeastern Conference (SEC), they're banned with the exception of Mississippi State's cowbells, which are currently on a probation of sorts and may end up vanishing as well.

Those cowbells are sooooooo much worse than the vuvuzela. I can't wait until their banned. Apparently CLANGCLANGCLANGCLANGCLANGCLANG rates higher on my annoyance meter than BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Which isn't to say I don't turn off the sound when I'm watching the World Cup.
posted by This Guy at 5:02 AM on June 18, 2010


My theory is that by the quarter finals, teams are going start dropping to the ground, mysteriously bleeding from their eyes and ears all the while South Africa will be unaffected and win the World Cup by default.
posted by slimepuppy at 6:56 AM on June 18, 2010


Ohhhh, right. And nothing lets other white hipster douchebags know that you're cool enough to be watching the World Cup like complaining about vuvuzelas loudly, online. That way, you don't even have to worry about knowing any of the scores, or the player names, or any actual facts about the game.

Many of the complaints about vuvuzelas come from people who live in places where football is a mainstream -or the dominant- sport, so I doubt it's productive to frame the vuvuzela complaints in terms of cool or as a hipster thing. It's mostly people who watch the sport and want the players and the coach to be able to communicate in the field so we can watch better games.
posted by ersatz at 7:29 AM on June 18, 2010




I agree with the guardian blogger:
"'Migraine' is the collective term for people who whinge about the vuvuzelas."
posted by jacalata at 10:23 AM on June 18, 2010




This is why I love the Internet. http://www.vuvuzela-time.co.uk/yvettesbridalformal.com/index.htm
posted by rageagainsttherobots at 3:10 PM on June 18, 2010


Invented in Britain 1939. An extract from Mass Observation [damn and blast their non-sharing, except at a price].
posted by unliteral at 9:43 AM on June 19, 2010








« Older Something Dangerous is Happening in Honduras   |   Candy Teacher (1921) Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments