Don't taze my Granny!
June 24, 2010 11:31 PM Subscribe
What to do when you've been called to a house for urgent medical assistance? If you're an officer of the El Rino Police Department it involves stepping on the oxygen cord of an invalid 86 year old grandmother then tazing her because she apparently "took a more aggressive posture in her bed". Then, to top if off, you have her held in the psych ward for six days to boot. Needless to say, the civil rights lawsuit has already been filed.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Look, it's awful that that happened but what is the point of posting this? Metafilter is not a police watchdog site, if there's going to be a post about something shitty an officer/dept. did it needs to be more substantial than "they did a bad thing". -- cortex
I'm not sure how this thread can possibly end except as wtfpolice.
posted by An algorithmic dog at 11:37 PM on June 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by An algorithmic dog at 11:37 PM on June 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
This kind of stuff is the direct result of the Thin Blue Line, police officers backing up other officers when they do wrong. We had a case in my town not so long ago where a drunk off-duty office ran a red light and killed a woman. The responding officers took him back to the station to sober up, and in court he claimed she had run the light, something that was completely impossible based on the synchronization of the lights at that intersection.
So he walked away clean.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 11:41 PM on June 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
So he walked away clean.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 11:41 PM on June 24, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've been trying to find out more details as well since this is too WTF police.
The only thing I can find is this in the local papers. The rest of the net seems to be carrying the "86 year old grandmother tasered wtf police?" version.
Still, I don't see how an 86 year old granny can be considered a serious threat to any officer.
posted by Talez at 11:41 PM on June 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
The only thing I can find is this in the local papers. The rest of the net seems to be carrying the "86 year old grandmother tasered wtf police?" version.
Still, I don't see how an 86 year old granny can be considered a serious threat to any officer.
posted by Talez at 11:41 PM on June 24, 2010 [2 favorites]
wow. the saddest story. Is there a way to put in for the family's fund? In so many ways this is tragic.
posted by parmanparman at 11:45 PM on June 24, 2010
posted by parmanparman at 11:45 PM on June 24, 2010
Is it me, or do cops not seem to be able to tell what constitutes an actual threat anymore? There's way too many of these stories lately.
posted by doctor_negative at 11:52 PM on June 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by doctor_negative at 11:52 PM on June 24, 2010 [4 favorites]
God willing I live to be eighty-six, I hope I'm still ornery enough to warrant a good tasing.
I also hope that if I live to be eighty-six, the cops by then will have learned the difference between my being "ornery" and my being "on a respirator, deprived of oxygen because someone's on my tube, and my needing to sit up to compensate."
posted by Graygorey at 12:04 AM on June 25, 2010
I also hope that if I live to be eighty-six, the cops by then will have learned the difference between my being "ornery" and my being "on a respirator, deprived of oxygen because someone's on my tube, and my needing to sit up to compensate."
posted by Graygorey at 12:04 AM on June 25, 2010
It's lucky she doesn't own a dog; things could have gotten much worse.
posted by homunculus at 12:13 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by homunculus at 12:13 AM on June 25, 2010
maybe its El Rino, South Africa?
posted by infini at 12:22 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 12:22 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just sad. How does a person get to the point that any of this seems like reasonable action? How can we pull them back?
Wish we had robot police. Wish we had robot police. Wish we had robot police.
posted by lucidium at 12:26 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wish we had robot police. Wish we had robot police. Wish we had robot police.
posted by lucidium at 12:26 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Firing a taser on someone should be a Big Deal. Perhaps not as much as use of lethal force, but there should always be a hearing and a brief mandatory suspension associated with it, so officers only use such weapons as warranted.
That said, I'm not sure what the point of posting this story is. It's an isolated incident - there's nothing to discuss here. The only purpose in relaying it is to provoke rage. Yes, people in positions of authority do awful things, and hopefully as a civil society there are mechanisms to retaliate against that. What purpose is served by posting it here and discussing it?
posted by heathkit at 12:27 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
That said, I'm not sure what the point of posting this story is. It's an isolated incident - there's nothing to discuss here. The only purpose in relaying it is to provoke rage. Yes, people in positions of authority do awful things, and hopefully as a civil society there are mechanisms to retaliate against that. What purpose is served by posting it here and discussing it?
posted by heathkit at 12:27 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
In fairness to the police officers, it was this old lady.
If it wasn't that old lady, then they all need to go to jail. Every last one them. Including the ones who just stood there.
posted by Davenhill at 12:34 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
If it wasn't that old lady, then they all need to go to jail. Every last one them. Including the ones who just stood there.
posted by Davenhill at 12:34 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
That's "El Reno, Oklahoma, not "El Rino".
Lived there (@ 415 East Wade, hello Google Street View!) until I was 9. Mom was chief of police in nearby Yukon, OK for a year or two in the late 70s/early 80s.
posted by mrbill at 12:44 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Lived there (@ 415 East Wade, hello Google Street View!) until I was 9. Mom was chief of police in nearby Yukon, OK for a year or two in the late 70s/early 80s.
posted by mrbill at 12:44 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Is it me, or do cops not seem to be able to tell what constitutes an actual threat anymore?
It's not that. They know what they used to know and more. The difference is in the tools they are encouraged to use.
Cops used to have three options for physically forcing people to submit: grappling, clubbing, or shooting. In this case, they wouldn't have wanted to shoot granny dead or club her into submission, so they would have had to do a little grappling. Unfortunately (for the cops), that means they would have had to get up close and maybe be hit in the face, scratched, slobbered on, spit on, and bitten, stuff they don't particularly like. People have diseases. People are icky.
Cops now have that tempting fourth option: they get to shoot a taser from a distance, so no one is going to bite them, and they generally don't kill anyone with a taser, so they aren't going to have the bureaucratic nightmare that shooting a gun leads to. It's also a major new psychological weapon -- disobey me and I'll make you squirm in pain until you're begging for mercy -- but it only works as long as people keep hearing about grannies being tortured in bed for not jumping to attention when a gang of cops bursts in.
Until someone gives them a nicer long-range method of physically taking someone down, or maybe a comfortable but bite-proof full-body uniform for hand-to-hand situations, they aren't going to give up their tasers. (Or until some cops start going to jail for being taser-happy dicks. But do you really expect to see that happening?)
posted by pracowity at 12:48 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's not that. They know what they used to know and more. The difference is in the tools they are encouraged to use.
Cops used to have three options for physically forcing people to submit: grappling, clubbing, or shooting. In this case, they wouldn't have wanted to shoot granny dead or club her into submission, so they would have had to do a little grappling. Unfortunately (for the cops), that means they would have had to get up close and maybe be hit in the face, scratched, slobbered on, spit on, and bitten, stuff they don't particularly like. People have diseases. People are icky.
Cops now have that tempting fourth option: they get to shoot a taser from a distance, so no one is going to bite them, and they generally don't kill anyone with a taser, so they aren't going to have the bureaucratic nightmare that shooting a gun leads to. It's also a major new psychological weapon -- disobey me and I'll make you squirm in pain until you're begging for mercy -- but it only works as long as people keep hearing about grannies being tortured in bed for not jumping to attention when a gang of cops bursts in.
Until someone gives them a nicer long-range method of physically taking someone down, or maybe a comfortable but bite-proof full-body uniform for hand-to-hand situations, they aren't going to give up their tasers. (Or until some cops start going to jail for being taser-happy dicks. But do you really expect to see that happening?)
posted by pracowity at 12:48 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it's kind of weird that this is happening in a "historic city" of 16,000 people. Usually this kind of gross incompetence only happens in the over-militarized urban areas where the police shoot first because they assume everyone's a crack-dealing terrorist with body armor. So much for small town charm?
posted by meowzilla at 12:50 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by meowzilla at 12:50 AM on June 25, 2010
We've had a rash of this type of stuff happening in and around Seattle, and it doesn't make me feel safer around police. Sometimes I think the taser or pepper spray is a much better option than getting physical
In another part of the continent an officer shot a motorcyclist for "taking an aggressive posture" ...with his back turned ...and the sirens blaring so he couldn't hear him.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:10 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
In another part of the continent an officer shot a motorcyclist for "taking an aggressive posture" ...with his back turned ...and the sirens blaring so he couldn't hear him.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:10 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Can she prove she isn't in the country illegally?
posted by srboisvert at 3:11 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 3:11 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm not a fan of BSDM, but maybe some of these dudes would benefit from some private sessions to get all that out of their systems before going out on the street.
Are you kidding? A person who freaks out at an octogenarian turning over in bed is the last person you should allow to tie someone up. BDSM is about consensual power exchange; someone who panics and lashes out at the least little challenge to their authority is someone who could never be trusted to respect consent. Please don't insult my kinky friends by putting them in the same category as these mad dogs.
How on earth do cops get trained? I've been in a variety of countries, and I've never seen police as hair-trigger aggressive and just flat-out scary as American ones. Were they always like this?
posted by Kit W at 3:39 AM on June 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
Are you kidding? A person who freaks out at an octogenarian turning over in bed is the last person you should allow to tie someone up. BDSM is about consensual power exchange; someone who panics and lashes out at the least little challenge to their authority is someone who could never be trusted to respect consent. Please don't insult my kinky friends by putting them in the same category as these mad dogs.
How on earth do cops get trained? I've been in a variety of countries, and I've never seen police as hair-trigger aggressive and just flat-out scary as American ones. Were they always like this?
posted by Kit W at 3:39 AM on June 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
This is BP's fault, surely?
posted by the_very_hungry_caterpillar at 3:58 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by the_very_hungry_caterpillar at 3:58 AM on June 25, 2010
Taser use in Montreal. Previously: Vancouver and Nova Scotia.
Amnesty International says: Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon... Medical studies so far on the effects of Tasers have either been limited in scope or unduly influenced by the weapons' primary manufacturer. No study has adequately examined the impact of Tasers on potentially at-risk individuals -- people who have medical conditions, take prescription medications, are mentally ill or are under the influence of narcotics.
Naomi Klien asks: “Why is this happening now?” The timing is indeed baffling... As former Toronto mayor John Sewell told me, “the taser is not the thing that replaces the gun, it’s what replaces all the other things that police might do other than use a gun, like talk to you.”
posted by ellehumour at 4:38 AM on June 25, 2010 [10 favorites]
Amnesty International says: Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon... Medical studies so far on the effects of Tasers have either been limited in scope or unduly influenced by the weapons' primary manufacturer. No study has adequately examined the impact of Tasers on potentially at-risk individuals -- people who have medical conditions, take prescription medications, are mentally ill or are under the influence of narcotics.
Naomi Klien asks: “Why is this happening now?” The timing is indeed baffling... As former Toronto mayor John Sewell told me, “the taser is not the thing that replaces the gun, it’s what replaces all the other things that police might do other than use a gun, like talk to you.”
posted by ellehumour at 4:38 AM on June 25, 2010 [10 favorites]
Tasers make cops stupid.
posted by hwestiii at 4:58 AM on June 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by hwestiii at 4:58 AM on June 25, 2010 [3 favorites]
Until someone gives them a nicer long-range method of physically taking someone down...
The Care Bear Stare?
posted by Ritchie at 5:22 AM on June 25, 2010
The Care Bear Stare?
posted by Ritchie at 5:22 AM on June 25, 2010
...the direct result of the Thin Blue Line, police officers backing up other officers when they do wrong.
These geriatric invalids need to develop a bit more esprit de corps, and start getting behind and supporting each other.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:25 AM on June 25, 2010
These geriatric invalids need to develop a bit more esprit de corps, and start getting behind and supporting each other.
posted by StickyCarpet at 5:25 AM on June 25, 2010
I was taught at an early age that if want to accurately assess the man's character, see how they behave when have a measure of power.
I work in a maximum security mental hospital, and from cops, to nurses, support staff and politicians, the maxim rings true time and time again.
It's one of those horrid facts of life that sadly will never change.
posted by Hickeystudio at 5:26 AM on June 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
I work in a maximum security mental hospital, and from cops, to nurses, support staff and politicians, the maxim rings true time and time again.
It's one of those horrid facts of life that sadly will never change.
posted by Hickeystudio at 5:26 AM on June 25, 2010 [4 favorites]
Jesus fucking christ, what the fuck, i don't even know what to say about this.
posted by empath at 5:33 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by empath at 5:33 AM on June 25, 2010
POLICE TASER EL RENO WOMANposted by ennui.bz at 5:38 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
REX HOGAN
Edition:Sunday, January 03, 2010
El Reno police said they were forced to taser an 86-year-old El Reno woman last week who was threatening to kill herself and threatened officers with a knife.
The incident occurred Dec. 22 at the Elizabeth Place Apartments, 1955 S. Shephard, said Police Chief Ken Brown.Brown said the woman's grandson telephoned police asking for help for his grandmother, who he said was threatening to overdose on medication. The chief said when officers arrived, they found the woman lying on a bed. He said when the woman saw the officers she ordered them out of her home and told them that she “wanted to die.” Brown said the woman pulled a kitchen knife and told officers “she was in control of her life.” Brown said officers then tasered the woman and took the knife. Brown said the woman was taken to Parkview Hospital where the tasers were removed and she was admitted to a mental health center.
We've had a rash of this type of stuff happening in and around Seattle, and it doesn't make me feel safer around police. Sometimes I think the taser or pepper spray is a much better option than getting physical
In fairness, there was also that one cop who straight up punched a woman in the face for jaywalking while on camera, so the Seattle PD do old fashioned getting physical as well. That guy is getting away with it too, of course.
posted by Artw at 5:58 AM on June 25, 2010
In fairness, there was also that one cop who straight up punched a woman in the face for jaywalking while on camera, so the Seattle PD do old fashioned getting physical as well. That guy is getting away with it too, of course.
posted by Artw at 5:58 AM on June 25, 2010
As usual, fuck the police.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I offend some delicate sensibilities?
posted by clvrmnky at 6:06 AM on June 25, 2010
Oh, I'm sorry, did I offend some delicate sensibilities?
posted by clvrmnky at 6:06 AM on June 25, 2010
In fairness, there was also that one cop who straight up punched a woman in the face for jaywalking while on camera, so the Seattle PD do old fashioned getting physical as well.
She deserved it. Sorry, you do not attack a cop.
posted by empath at 6:16 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
She deserved it. Sorry, you do not attack a cop.
posted by empath at 6:16 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
A taser should also give the shooter a nice shock just as a reminder to think twice before using it.
posted by digsrus at 6:18 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by digsrus at 6:18 AM on June 25, 2010
(and yes, getting in the way there probably was a bad idea)
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by Artw at 6:27 AM on June 25, 2010
She deserved it. Sorry, you do not attack a cop.
Nobody deserves a police force that punches people in the face. No country deserves a police force that punches people in the face. The police aren't there to punish people; that's what the judiciary system and the prison system are for. The police are there to preserve public safety, not to deal out ad hoc beatings, no matter what someone's done.
What I saw in that video was a woman resisting a cop, not attacking him, and the police's inability to grasp the difference between the two seems be behind an awful lot of these brutality cases, but that's a separate issue. Even if you don't care what happens to that woman, you might try caring about the country - and a country whose police think that punching someone much weaker than themselves is an appropriate response to a bit of lip and struggling is a country in serious, serious trouble.
When the police start allocating to themselves the right to punish people who 'deserve' it, they're undermining the whole principle of justice and separation of powers on which a democratic nation rests. If it's bad for a citizen to 'attack' a cop, it's worse for a cop to undermine democracy.
posted by Kit W at 6:30 AM on June 25, 2010 [11 favorites]
Nobody deserves a police force that punches people in the face. No country deserves a police force that punches people in the face. The police aren't there to punish people; that's what the judiciary system and the prison system are for. The police are there to preserve public safety, not to deal out ad hoc beatings, no matter what someone's done.
What I saw in that video was a woman resisting a cop, not attacking him, and the police's inability to grasp the difference between the two seems be behind an awful lot of these brutality cases, but that's a separate issue. Even if you don't care what happens to that woman, you might try caring about the country - and a country whose police think that punching someone much weaker than themselves is an appropriate response to a bit of lip and struggling is a country in serious, serious trouble.
When the police start allocating to themselves the right to punish people who 'deserve' it, they're undermining the whole principle of justice and separation of powers on which a democratic nation rests. If it's bad for a citizen to 'attack' a cop, it's worse for a cop to undermine democracy.
posted by Kit W at 6:30 AM on June 25, 2010 [11 favorites]
She deserved it. Sorry, you do not attack a cop.
Nobody deserves a police force that punches people in the face
I'm no advocate of police violence, but I understand it. (to paraphrase Chris Rock.)
The police officer started off that exchange in WA got angry and the punch was the result. On one hand, I've been there, I get it. The punchee was in the wrong too. You don't 'get up in someone's grill' expecially if he's trying to give someone a ticket. (Jaywalking? Really? No crime in WA?)
I believe that the cop lost his temper because of the basic lack of respect that he was shown. Do I agree that punching that woman in the face was the right way to react. No.
I'd like to think that the people we give weapons to and whom we allow to enforce the law have better self-control than that. That doesn't make what the woman did right. She was wrong first, he was wrong harder.
As for these clowns in OK, uh, no matter what the reason for the call, shouldn't it have been the Fire Department and an Ambulance that responded? Why did 10 cops (the entire force?) show up at granny's house, even if she was threatening self-harm?
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:52 AM on June 25, 2010
Perspective:
My wife and I are "friends" with a couple, and the husband is a policeman. Now, "friends" in the sense that we invite them and suggest they be invited when there is going to be at least one other couple present. We no longer invite them as a couple exclusively. Believe it or not, the husband is very pleasant and socially enjoyable, but his wife is one of those women who is painfully awkward socially, but she doesn't realize it.
The husband isn't enjoying his experience as a police officer. One night, after several Bombays, he told me that he's no longer in any of the other police officers' "five." The "five" is a local thing. Whenever a police officer is asked "How do you handle the pressure of being the first responder to many of these situations?" or "Why do you put up with this crap?" the office will hold up an opened hand and wave all of his fingers. Basically, what it refers to is the belief that in your life you will have, at most, 5 people who wouldn't hesitate to save your skin even in the most dangerous of situations. The people in your "five" wouldn't hear the bullets, they would drop everything they were doing if they knew you were in danger, and they would readily sacrifice themselves if it meant saving you.
There's an added twist to this, though. They never want to patrol "without their thumb." In other words, if you feel you are in someone else's five, but aren't so sure they are in yours, then you make it apparent you no longer are such. Granted, there's no sign up sheet or anything, but if these guys don't feel that their five is filled entirely with other police officers, they fear surviving until retirement. Whether this is warranted or not, I cannot say.
So, why did my friend insist he's no longer in everyone else's "five"?
"Sometimes they expect you to protect only those who serve."
I agree, we must not let this sort of thing go unpunished, but before we start handing out civil suits like flyers, we must try to understand the mentality behind some of the shady things the other officers do to cover these things up. For a minority of the officers that do some of these hideous things, yes, it's a power trip. But most of the ones that cover up the actions of those guys, it's fear of getting killed that drives them to do it. They feel they need the guy who will shoot first, tase without hesitation, and punch someone in the face. After all, they sometimes face situations where their moral backbone makes them susceptible to leaving a widow. With guns, a half second "Maybe I shouldn't do this" is the difference between killing and being killed, and they don't want to have to always take that leap of faith. There's that crazy guy who will do it for them. They want that guy in their five, even if it means being in his for a time. True, it creates an "us vs. them" mentality, but I'm not sure if I were in the same circumstance, I would act any differently.
I'm scared of dying, too.
posted by Bathtub Bobsled at 6:52 AM on June 25, 2010 [8 favorites]
In this case, they wouldn't have wanted to shoot granny dead or club her into submission, so they would have had to do a little grappling.
Why did they have to grapple with her? Yes she was brandishing a knife and yes she was threatening to overdose, but what is wrong with talking to her? For fuck's sake she was no threat to them and probably no real threat to herself. What she needed was someone to sit down and talk to her and find out what was going on-- which is what would have happened had there been anyone other than police responding to the call. A nurse would have been good, a social worker, anyone trained to deal with people on a medical level, really.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:53 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Why did they have to grapple with her? Yes she was brandishing a knife and yes she was threatening to overdose, but what is wrong with talking to her? For fuck's sake she was no threat to them and probably no real threat to herself. What she needed was someone to sit down and talk to her and find out what was going on-- which is what would have happened had there been anyone other than police responding to the call. A nurse would have been good, a social worker, anyone trained to deal with people on a medical level, really.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:53 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
(and yes, getting in the way there probably was a bad idea)
Are you deliberately misrepresenting what's going on in the video? He was trying to give someone ELSE a ticket for jay walking. That woman got involved (who by the way has a violent criminal history) and physically attacked a police officer. I think he actually showed pretty reasonable restraint in a situation that could have gone very bad for him. The punch stopped her cold and he got control of the situation, and nobody was seriously hurt.
posted by empath at 7:05 AM on June 25, 2010
Are you deliberately misrepresenting what's going on in the video? He was trying to give someone ELSE a ticket for jay walking. That woman got involved (who by the way has a violent criminal history) and physically attacked a police officer. I think he actually showed pretty reasonable restraint in a situation that could have gone very bad for him. The punch stopped her cold and he got control of the situation, and nobody was seriously hurt.
posted by empath at 7:05 AM on June 25, 2010
The face-punch video is an edge case and a distraction from the real problems of police over-reacting to basic "Cop 101" situations with both lethal and "non-lethal" weapons. The Seattle police officer had reason to get physical, IMO—the first woman was resisting, and the second jumped in and actively got physical with the officer–this is clearly assault on a police officer. At this point, the officer assumes the worst, and subdues the attacker. Never mind her age, physique, what have you. The officer is now in an altercation with two people, and that's how you get shot with your own gun (which weapon he never drew, FWIW). So it may not have been pretty, but he had to get this woman off him and quick.
Other options include: clubbing her with a night stick (brain damage), macing her (respiratory arrest), tasing her (cardiac arrest), shooting her (lead poisoning). Hey, I'll take a punch in the face before any of that stuff. If I grabbed a cop I would expect a punch in the face as well. I think the fact that he is a man, and she is a woman, and he is white while she is black is the core of this controversy. If he'd punched a white guy who'd just grabbed him, there'd be no story here. Again, it would be good to see more training in how to avoid these situations, but laying hands on a police officer is a big deal, and the kind of thing that can get you killed.
Now maybe the officer could have done more to defuse the situation earlier, but that is another kettle of fish. Fact is, the women did not comply with his lawful commands, and escalated the situation dangerously. My point is that there are lots of crystal-clear instances of abusive behavior by police; we should not make this case, where reasonable people will concede that the "victim" made a huge and dangerous mistake, a cause celebre just because we have pictures.
That said, using a taser on a bedridden 86-year-old invalid hooked to an oxygen tank is ridiculous in any case other than her pulling a firearm on the officers. It doesn't matter what she said, this is ridiculous and criminal police work. Stepping on her oxygen and THEN using a taser is just sadism. Fuck these pigs.
posted by Mister_A at 7:05 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Other options include: clubbing her with a night stick (brain damage), macing her (respiratory arrest), tasing her (cardiac arrest), shooting her (lead poisoning). Hey, I'll take a punch in the face before any of that stuff. If I grabbed a cop I would expect a punch in the face as well. I think the fact that he is a man, and she is a woman, and he is white while she is black is the core of this controversy. If he'd punched a white guy who'd just grabbed him, there'd be no story here. Again, it would be good to see more training in how to avoid these situations, but laying hands on a police officer is a big deal, and the kind of thing that can get you killed.
Now maybe the officer could have done more to defuse the situation earlier, but that is another kettle of fish. Fact is, the women did not comply with his lawful commands, and escalated the situation dangerously. My point is that there are lots of crystal-clear instances of abusive behavior by police; we should not make this case, where reasonable people will concede that the "victim" made a huge and dangerous mistake, a cause celebre just because we have pictures.
That said, using a taser on a bedridden 86-year-old invalid hooked to an oxygen tank is ridiculous in any case other than her pulling a firearm on the officers. It doesn't matter what she said, this is ridiculous and criminal police work. Stepping on her oxygen and THEN using a taser is just sadism. Fuck these pigs.
posted by Mister_A at 7:05 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Honestly, I'd prefer punching to tasering... It just seems less chicken-shit to me, and I think, something a cop is going to be disinclined to do just because of the danger to himself due to the escalation in force.
posted by empath at 7:11 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by empath at 7:11 AM on June 25, 2010
But most of the ones that cover up the actions of those guys, it's fear of getting killed that drives them to do it.
Okay, but what makes them such hysterical cowards that they leap to the assumption they're going to get killed at such short notice? There's police brutality in other countries, but American cops seem particularly bad. I don't think fear is the whole explanation; it doesn't explain why cops are so quick to assume life-or-death in situations where they're in no danger.
That woman got involved (who by the way has a violent criminal history)
Which I'm sure was tattooed to her forehead right where the cop could read it.
Honestly, I'd prefer punching to tasering... It just seems less chicken-shit to me, and I think, something a cop is going to be disinclined to do just because of the danger to himself due to the escalation in force.
Ah, so it's brave to punch a woman in the face?
And what on earth makes you think a cop is disinclined to do it when you're in the middle of defending a cop who actually did it?
Now maybe the officer could have done more to defuse the situation earlier, but that is another kettle of fish.
I'd say it's the kettle of fish that counts. The situation doesn't begin with the punch, it begins the moment they start interacting. A police officer's whole aim should be to handle the situation without it escalating into violence on either side. Whether or not he did that is an incredibly important part of the discussion.
posted by Kit W at 7:23 AM on June 25, 2010
Okay, but what makes them such hysterical cowards that they leap to the assumption they're going to get killed at such short notice? There's police brutality in other countries, but American cops seem particularly bad. I don't think fear is the whole explanation; it doesn't explain why cops are so quick to assume life-or-death in situations where they're in no danger.
That woman got involved (who by the way has a violent criminal history)
Which I'm sure was tattooed to her forehead right where the cop could read it.
Honestly, I'd prefer punching to tasering... It just seems less chicken-shit to me, and I think, something a cop is going to be disinclined to do just because of the danger to himself due to the escalation in force.
Ah, so it's brave to punch a woman in the face?
And what on earth makes you think a cop is disinclined to do it when you're in the middle of defending a cop who actually did it?
Now maybe the officer could have done more to defuse the situation earlier, but that is another kettle of fish.
I'd say it's the kettle of fish that counts. The situation doesn't begin with the punch, it begins the moment they start interacting. A police officer's whole aim should be to handle the situation without it escalating into violence on either side. Whether or not he did that is an incredibly important part of the discussion.
posted by Kit W at 7:23 AM on June 25, 2010
"I don't see how an 86 year old granny can be considered a serious threat to any officer."
I've seen a nonagenarian punch out a linebacker sized ambulance attendant.
Does anyone know whether there are different kinds of oxygen tubes? My father's is crush proof to the point you can roll a chair onto it and it won't cut off the oxygen; the non point pressure of a shoe wouldn't even come close.
posted by Mitheral at 7:25 AM on June 25, 2010
I've seen a nonagenarian punch out a linebacker sized ambulance attendant.
Does anyone know whether there are different kinds of oxygen tubes? My father's is crush proof to the point you can roll a chair onto it and it won't cut off the oxygen; the non point pressure of a shoe wouldn't even come close.
posted by Mitheral at 7:25 AM on June 25, 2010
I wonder how many times it will be "deployed" in Toronto this weekend.
Police forces in charge of security for the G20 in Toronto have been granted special powers for the duration of the summit.
Ontario's cabinet quietly passed the new rules on June 2 without legislature debate.
Police, at their discretion, can deny access to the area and "use whatever force is necessary" to keep people out.
'The public has nothing to fear with this legislation and the way the police will use this legislation. It really comes down to a case of common sense and officer discretion.'— Sgt. Tim Burrows of the G8/G20 Integrated Security Unit
Whew! Thank goodness we have "officer discretion" to rely on. Why do we have restrictions on police powers at all, really?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:29 AM on June 25, 2010
Police forces in charge of security for the G20 in Toronto have been granted special powers for the duration of the summit.
Ontario's cabinet quietly passed the new rules on June 2 without legislature debate.
Police, at their discretion, can deny access to the area and "use whatever force is necessary" to keep people out.
'The public has nothing to fear with this legislation and the way the police will use this legislation. It really comes down to a case of common sense and officer discretion.'— Sgt. Tim Burrows of the G8/G20 Integrated Security Unit
Whew! Thank goodness we have "officer discretion" to rely on. Why do we have restrictions on police powers at all, really?
posted by Durn Bronzefist at 7:29 AM on June 25, 2010
they fear surviving until retirement. Whether this is warranted or not, I cannot say
It is not. The number of officers who are killed by assailants is exceedingly small. In 2008, 41 officers were "feloniously killed," but that includes four who were killed by a vehicle and it isn't clear whether they were struck with intent to kill or they were just grotesque traffic accidents. 2008 was a good year and I gather from context that the number is normally around 60.
There were 708,569 sworn officers in 2008. Using 60 deaths, this gives an annual risk of death from assailants of 0.0085 percent, and a probability of surviving until retirement of 99.7%. Being a law enforcement officer involves less risk of death than doing large-scale construction. Being a law enforcement officer involves less risk of death than being a garbageman. Being a law enforcement officer involves less risk of death than roofing. It's safer than working oil. It's safer than driving a cab. It's safer than driving a truck.
Cops are at greater risk for traffic accidents, but your "five" aren't going to help you there.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:33 AM on June 25, 2010 [9 favorites]
It is not. The number of officers who are killed by assailants is exceedingly small. In 2008, 41 officers were "feloniously killed," but that includes four who were killed by a vehicle and it isn't clear whether they were struck with intent to kill or they were just grotesque traffic accidents. 2008 was a good year and I gather from context that the number is normally around 60.
There were 708,569 sworn officers in 2008. Using 60 deaths, this gives an annual risk of death from assailants of 0.0085 percent, and a probability of surviving until retirement of 99.7%. Being a law enforcement officer involves less risk of death than doing large-scale construction. Being a law enforcement officer involves less risk of death than being a garbageman. Being a law enforcement officer involves less risk of death than roofing. It's safer than working oil. It's safer than driving a cab. It's safer than driving a truck.
Cops are at greater risk for traffic accidents, but your "five" aren't going to help you there.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:33 AM on June 25, 2010 [9 favorites]
Really, it's not the point of the discussion, Kit W. The officer may have been polite yet authoritative at the outset, or he may have been a real douche about it. We don't know, that part isn't on the tape. I will stipulate that, in general, police should be trained to defuse tense situations, but we really don't know how this situation came about and it's pointless to speculate. However, even if the officer was mean and nasty, it was appropriate to quickly neutralize the woman who attacked him. There are times when it's appropriate to use force, and this was one of them.
Police brutality is a huge problem in the US, but this case, to me, represents a pretty clear-cut situation where judicious application of force is called for. That's why, in my opinion, this case is a distraction—it is far too easy to argue the opposing side of this case, even for a fairly vocal and pointed critic of the police; and the anti-police position is too conditional and inference-dependent to be meaningful. Even notorious race-baiting idiot Al Sharpton concedes the young women were clearly in the wrong. Let's move on and address the real problems with policing in the US, like no-knock raids, racial profiling, over-reliance on weapons, etc.
posted by Mister_A at 7:37 AM on June 25, 2010
Police brutality is a huge problem in the US, but this case, to me, represents a pretty clear-cut situation where judicious application of force is called for. That's why, in my opinion, this case is a distraction—it is far too easy to argue the opposing side of this case, even for a fairly vocal and pointed critic of the police; and the anti-police position is too conditional and inference-dependent to be meaningful. Even notorious race-baiting idiot Al Sharpton concedes the young women were clearly in the wrong. Let's move on and address the real problems with policing in the US, like no-knock raids, racial profiling, over-reliance on weapons, etc.
posted by Mister_A at 7:37 AM on June 25, 2010
The WTF Police meme here is kinda sad. According to what we can tell, the grandson called the police to intervene in a situation they are not really equipped to handle -- suicide. Many larger urban areas, including NYC where I am, have specialized training for cops taking emotionally disturbed dispatches. 9-1-1 centers do not have standard training or protocol around calls regarding suicide.
There is an incredible gap in our public services. Suicide attempts or threats with means are not what most cops are trained on, and it's not a main part of their job. Some areas don't have quick access to ambulances, let alone emergency psychiatric mobile outreach.
The wrong person was sent to do that job. I'm not defending the cops actions, but WTF Police is scapegoating the issue.
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 7:40 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
There is an incredible gap in our public services. Suicide attempts or threats with means are not what most cops are trained on, and it's not a main part of their job. Some areas don't have quick access to ambulances, let alone emergency psychiatric mobile outreach.
The wrong person was sent to do that job. I'm not defending the cops actions, but WTF Police is scapegoating the issue.
posted by Sweetdefenestration at 7:40 AM on June 25, 2010 [2 favorites]
Man, this is a terrible post. Single-link, dubious source, written for maximum GRAR.
posted by electroboy at 7:41 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by electroboy at 7:41 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sweetdefenestration, it is difficult to imagine a situation in which "WTF police?" is not the correct response to these actions. Asphyxiating and then electrifying a depressed bedridden invalid? WTF lousy human beings???
posted by Mister_A at 7:47 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by Mister_A at 7:47 AM on June 25, 2010
Sometimes the question must be asked of Police, "what the fuck?"
posted by Artw at 7:48 AM on June 25, 2010
posted by Artw at 7:48 AM on June 25, 2010
Feel like getting angry? Watch this.
Feel like getting angrier? Watch this.
posted by DZack at 7:54 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
Feel like getting angrier? Watch this.
posted by DZack at 7:54 AM on June 25, 2010 [1 favorite]
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