The Big Payback
October 6, 2010 1:09 PM Subscribe
"I think what (Sonic Youth) did was take a lot of people who didn't have aspirations or ambitions and encouraged them to be part of the mainstream music industry. They validated the fleeting notions that these kids had that they might one day be rock stars. And then they participated in inducing a lot of them to make very stupid career moves."
Steve Albini, one of the most famously prolific and cranky producers of the indie music scene, speaks with GQ about the state of the music business and the perils of selling out.
Steve Albini, one of the most famously prolific and cranky producers of the indie music scene, speaks with GQ about the state of the music business and the perils of selling out.
I wish more curmudgeons were as consistent as Steve Albini. You know what you're going to get when you read a Steve Albini article, and yet the odds are you're still going to find an informed insight spun in a way you wouldn't have expected. What I hate are the people that followed him sporting a watered down imitation of his "damn the torpedoes" attitude without the experience, skills, or conviction that Steve has built up over the years. I still disagree with many of his stances on music and mainstream media, but I always look forward reading his take on the issues.
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2010 [8 favorites]
And he's already fighting some of the backlash to his backlash:
"In the GQ thing and in the lazier media rehashes it comes across like I just want to shit on Sonic Youth and while I can't apologize for the legitimate sentiments in the article, I feel bad about the way it has been framed by opportunistic new media douchebags with an agenda and a lust for controversy."
posted by Paid In Full at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2010 [15 favorites]
"In the GQ thing and in the lazier media rehashes it comes across like I just want to shit on Sonic Youth and while I can't apologize for the legitimate sentiments in the article, I feel bad about the way it has been framed by opportunistic new media douchebags with an agenda and a lust for controversy."
posted by Paid In Full at 1:25 PM on October 6, 2010 [15 favorites]
THE I/P CONFLICT IS ALL SONIC YOUTHS FAULT
there, glad that's all settled
posted by davejay at 1:27 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
there, glad that's all settled
posted by davejay at 1:27 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Hmmm? Provocative lead. I think this bit would be better:
It sickens me to think that there is an industry that plays to the low self-esteem of the general public. I would like the fashion industry to collapse. I think it plays to the most superficial, most insecure parts of human nature. I hope GQ as a magazine fails. I hope that all of these people who make a living by looking pretty are eventually made destitute or forced to do something of substance. At least pornography has a function.
Because ummm, Sonic Youth are cool, and thus impervious to all charges of ever having made a mistake.
good interview, by the way - thanks for the link
posted by philip-random at 1:29 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
It sickens me to think that there is an industry that plays to the low self-esteem of the general public. I would like the fashion industry to collapse. I think it plays to the most superficial, most insecure parts of human nature. I hope GQ as a magazine fails. I hope that all of these people who make a living by looking pretty are eventually made destitute or forced to do something of substance. At least pornography has a function.
Because ummm, Sonic Youth are cool, and thus impervious to all charges of ever having made a mistake.
good interview, by the way - thanks for the link
posted by philip-random at 1:29 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Also:
You don't act like an asshole when you go to the barber. So why act like an asshole when you're in a band?
The barber has ready access to a sharp blade, and the power to make you look like an asshole until your hair grows back out. So, uh, maybe you need a better analogy, there.
posted by davejay at 1:30 PM on October 6, 2010 [6 favorites]
You don't act like an asshole when you go to the barber. So why act like an asshole when you're in a band?
The barber has ready access to a sharp blade, and the power to make you look like an asshole until your hair grows back out. So, uh, maybe you need a better analogy, there.
posted by davejay at 1:30 PM on October 6, 2010 [6 favorites]
Dude, how is it there's even a backlash against this? Isn't it obvious at this point that he's right? – that Sonic Youth was being very naive when it encouraged so many bands to dive headlong into the mainstream in the 90s? Who disputes this?
I mean, come on. More people listen to Sonic Youth than Shellac anyway; they can take care of themselves. It's not like Kim or Thurston are notably unwilling to grant interviews of their own or issue their own opinions on this stuff.
posted by koeselitz at 1:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [9 favorites]
I mean, come on. More people listen to Sonic Youth than Shellac anyway; they can take care of themselves. It's not like Kim or Thurston are notably unwilling to grant interviews of their own or issue their own opinions on this stuff.
posted by koeselitz at 1:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [9 favorites]
On a more positive note:
This is a terrific time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default.
This is so true. This morning, my five-year-old son volunteered that he wanted to sing and record a song with me, and I promptly agreed. He then said he wanted to hear it on the radio, and I was able to say with complete honestly that it might not end up on the radio, but we could certainly put it somewhere where anyone in the world could listen to it.
On that note, I think it's nice that he cares about making music and sharing it with everyone, but making money from it isn't on his radar.
posted by davejay at 1:34 PM on October 6, 2010 [25 favorites]
This is a terrific time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default.
This is so true. This morning, my five-year-old son volunteered that he wanted to sing and record a song with me, and I promptly agreed. He then said he wanted to hear it on the radio, and I was able to say with complete honestly that it might not end up on the radio, but we could certainly put it somewhere where anyone in the world could listen to it.
On that note, I think it's nice that he cares about making music and sharing it with everyone, but making money from it isn't on his radar.
posted by davejay at 1:34 PM on October 6, 2010 [25 favorites]
josher71: ...I thought this whole interview was unnecessarily grumpy even for him.
His grumpiness is a trademark and one of things that a media outlet is looking for when you call Steve Albini to talk. But I thought his enthusiasm still showed through a few times. Especially when talking about when talking about some of the current opportunities for musicians: "This is a terrific time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default. I know quite a few bands that have been able to establish themselves internationally based on nothing other their web presence."
I, for one, thought Sonic Youth came out ahead on the major label deal. Those weren't my favorite SY records, but I think the band was going in a similar direction even without a major label pushing them that way. I think they were able to get what they needed out of the major label machinery and worked it their advantage. The bands without Sonic Youth's clout and influence that followed and signed up with the majors didn't fare nearly as well. I always thought signing Sonic Youth was really just bait to draw in other "indie" bands that might be more pliable and easier to manipulate.
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
His grumpiness is a trademark and one of things that a media outlet is looking for when you call Steve Albini to talk. But I thought his enthusiasm still showed through a few times. Especially when talking about when talking about some of the current opportunities for musicians: "This is a terrific time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default. I know quite a few bands that have been able to establish themselves internationally based on nothing other their web presence."
I, for one, thought Sonic Youth came out ahead on the major label deal. Those weren't my favorite SY records, but I think the band was going in a similar direction even without a major label pushing them that way. I think they were able to get what they needed out of the major label machinery and worked it their advantage. The bands without Sonic Youth's clout and influence that followed and signed up with the majors didn't fare nearly as well. I always thought signing Sonic Youth was really just bait to draw in other "indie" bands that might be more pliable and easier to manipulate.
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 1:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
They chose to join the mainstream culture and become a foot soldier for that culture's encroachment into my neck of the woods by acting as scouts. I thought it was crass and I thought it reflected poorly on them. I still consider them friends and their music has its own integrity, but that kind of behavior—I can't say that I think it's not embarrassing for them. I think they should be embarrassed about it.
OH MY FUCKING GOD GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF ALBINI
posted by dersins at 1:40 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
OH MY FUCKING GOD GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF ALBINI
posted by dersins at 1:40 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
So let me get this straight:
Formulaic music producer blames other band for bands he produced for making shitty albums for major labels?
Or should i say:
FORUMLAIC MUSIC PRODUCER blames other bands HE PRODUCED FOR making shitty ALBUMS FOR major LABELS?
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:43 PM on October 6, 2010 [6 favorites]
Formulaic music producer blames other band for bands he produced for making shitty albums for major labels?
Or should i say:
FORUMLAIC MUSIC PRODUCER blames other bands HE PRODUCED FOR making shitty ALBUMS FOR major LABELS?
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:43 PM on October 6, 2010 [6 favorites]
I would love to read a conversation between Harlan Ellison and Steve Albini. Throw in Christopher Hitchens for good measure, but quickly.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:44 PM on October 6, 2010 [14 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:44 PM on October 6, 2010 [14 favorites]
Albini's done albums with bands on major labels. Including, um, Nevermind? Which had more of an influence on indie bands joining majors than anything else in the past 20 years.
posted by naju at 1:48 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by naju at 1:48 PM on October 6, 2010
Had Sonic Youth not done what they did I don't know what would have happened—the alternative history game is kind of silly. But I think it cheapened music quite a bit. It made music culture kind of empty and ugly and was generally a kind of bad influence.
Holy crap, talk about hyperbole.
Dirty is still my favorite SY album, David Geffen sellout or not. I'm ready for the bricks and spittle.
posted by blucevalo at 1:57 PM on October 6, 2010
Holy crap, talk about hyperbole.
Dirty is still my favorite SY album, David Geffen sellout or not. I'm ready for the bricks and spittle.
posted by blucevalo at 1:57 PM on October 6, 2010
Daydream Nation or GTFO!
posted by Babblesort at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by Babblesort at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Geez.... I thought it was Courtney Love, not Kim Gordon who killed Kurt Cobain.
posted by spudsilo at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by spudsilo at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is a terrific time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default.
But on the other hand... this is a terrible time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default.
posted by JohnMarston at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [23 favorites]
But on the other hand... this is a terrible time to be in a band. Every band has access to the entire world by default.
posted by JohnMarston at 2:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [23 favorites]
I, for one, thought Sonic Youth came out ahead on the major label deal. Those weren't my favorite SY records, but I think the band was going in a similar direction even without a major label pushing them that way.
Yeah, I quite enjoyed at least the beginning of Sonic Youth's foray into Majordom. Nothing was going to top Daydream Nation in terms of expansive exploratory beauty and complexity, so why even try? Why not steer things back to terra-firma a bit, and as such, why not let some corporate bucks help you with your mission? And Goo and Dirty were darned good, relatively accessible versions of Sonic Youth, full of cuts that still feature in my ipod. After that, I don't really have an opinion as, come the mid-90s my ears were off in other pastures.
The charge that they led other, younger, more naive bands down a garden path is interesting though, and rather loaded. Would Kurt Cobain be alive today if Nirvana had never left Sub-Pop etc? It's actually worth wondering about, particularly in the wake of the Led-Zeppelin-bio I just read (Hammer of the Gods). Hardly high-end literature but it does trace a rather tragic tale of a band that achieved all manner of HUGEness, but you're left wondering if it was actually good for any involved. It certainly cost John Bonham his life and Jimmy Page his health (heroin addiction).
As for Albini, I'd be disappointed if he wasn't pushing a few buttons. The guy's punk to the core and as such it's kind of in the job description. DON'T BE PLEASANT.
posted by philip-random at 2:04 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I quite enjoyed at least the beginning of Sonic Youth's foray into Majordom. Nothing was going to top Daydream Nation in terms of expansive exploratory beauty and complexity, so why even try? Why not steer things back to terra-firma a bit, and as such, why not let some corporate bucks help you with your mission? And Goo and Dirty were darned good, relatively accessible versions of Sonic Youth, full of cuts that still feature in my ipod. After that, I don't really have an opinion as, come the mid-90s my ears were off in other pastures.
The charge that they led other, younger, more naive bands down a garden path is interesting though, and rather loaded. Would Kurt Cobain be alive today if Nirvana had never left Sub-Pop etc? It's actually worth wondering about, particularly in the wake of the Led-Zeppelin-bio I just read (Hammer of the Gods). Hardly high-end literature but it does trace a rather tragic tale of a band that achieved all manner of HUGEness, but you're left wondering if it was actually good for any involved. It certainly cost John Bonham his life and Jimmy Page his health (heroin addiction).
As for Albini, I'd be disappointed if he wasn't pushing a few buttons. The guy's punk to the core and as such it's kind of in the job description. DON'T BE PLEASANT.
posted by philip-random at 2:04 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Dude, how is it there's even a backlash against this? Isn't it obvious at this point that he's right? – that Sonic Youth was being very naive when it encouraged so many bands to dive headlong into the mainstream in the 90s? Who disputes this?
I really haven't seen any evidence of them encouraging other bands to do so. SY continued making solid albums throughout the 90's - who cares what label they did it on?
posted by ripley_ at 2:05 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I really haven't seen any evidence of them encouraging other bands to do so. SY continued making solid albums throughout the 90's - who cares what label they did it on?
posted by ripley_ at 2:05 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Formulaic music producer blames other band for bands he produced for making shitty albums for major labels?
Albini's done albums with bands on major labels.
To be fair, producing albums is Albini's day job, and he's been pretty up-front about his willingness to work with anyone who's willing to pay. I agree that there's something slightly fishy about the guy who produced Razorblade Suitcase calling Sonic Youth a bunch of sell-outs, but it's not like he ever encouraged anyone, by counsel or by example, to sign with a major label.
In any case, Steve Albini has a lifetime pass and can say or do whatever he wants.
posted by DaDaDaDave at 2:06 PM on October 6, 2010
Albini's done albums with bands on major labels.
To be fair, producing albums is Albini's day job, and he's been pretty up-front about his willingness to work with anyone who's willing to pay. I agree that there's something slightly fishy about the guy who produced Razorblade Suitcase calling Sonic Youth a bunch of sell-outs, but it's not like he ever encouraged anyone, by counsel or by example, to sign with a major label.
In any case, Steve Albini has a lifetime pass and can say or do whatever he wants.
posted by DaDaDaDave at 2:06 PM on October 6, 2010
Maybe I'm not up on my history. But did Sonic Youth intentionally mislead anyone about the benefits and/or risks of signing with a major label?
And if they merely set a bad example, did they do so in some way different than, say, Hüsker Dü?
posted by Joe Beese at 2:08 PM on October 6, 2010
And if they merely set a bad example, did they do so in some way different than, say, Hüsker Dü?
posted by Joe Beese at 2:08 PM on October 6, 2010
It's weird – I've never gotten into Sonic Youth. That self-titled EP is great, Confusion is Sex is awesome at points, but I listened to Daydream Nation a few times and just got bored. I realize now that I don't think I've ever listened to Dirty all the way through – nor Goo or any of the other 'big' Sonic albums. Hrm.
I never really liked Steve's production style, either, but I have to admit that I've listened to "Prayer to God" far more times than is probably healthy for a person's soul.
posted by koeselitz at 2:09 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I never really liked Steve's production style, either, but I have to admit that I've listened to "Prayer to God" far more times than is probably healthy for a person's soul.
posted by koeselitz at 2:09 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
That last paragraph had me laughing. Bully to GQ for printing
it even though that's probably what they were trying to
produce from Albini anyway.
posted by coolxcool=rad at 2:12 PM on October 6, 2010
it even though that's probably what they were trying to
produce from Albini anyway.
posted by coolxcool=rad at 2:12 PM on October 6, 2010
I thought the question on Chumbawamba's position as indie-to-major was an odd band to call out, but ignored it. Then Albini elaborated a bit in his follow-up comments on the interview, noting that the interviewer was writing a book on Chumbawamba or somesuch. If nothing else, Smith published a zine issue dedicated to that band, and if this odd article is correct, Smith ran a small label that re-released an earlier Chumbawamba album on cassette in 2007.
/derail
posted by filthy light thief at 2:12 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
/derail
posted by filthy light thief at 2:12 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
There is no topic Albini can take on that won't result in me wanting to punch him in the face.
The dude could talk about his favorite ice cream flavor in a way that would make me want to strangle him.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 2:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The dude could talk about his favorite ice cream flavor in a way that would make me want to strangle him.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 2:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
1000 Hurts is so, so good.
posted by joe lisboa at 2:14 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by joe lisboa at 2:14 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Joe Beese: “Maybe I'm not up on my history. But did Sonic Youth intentionally mislead anyone about the benefits and/or risks of signing with a major label? And if they merely set a bad example, did they do so in some way different than, say, Hüsker Dü?”
I think Sonic Youth's influence on the 'scene' was categorically more than just setting an example like Hüsker Dü. They were friends with Kurt Cobain and encouraged him to take Nirvana to a major label, and they went out of their way to know as many people in indie rock at the time as they could and made their feelings know as far as where they felt like people should go. Their recommendation to Kurt flowed from Sonic Youth's sense that their move from SST to a major had been good, and it influenced a lot of people – largely because Sonic Youth wasn't shy about letting people know how they felt.
posted by koeselitz at 2:18 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think Sonic Youth's influence on the 'scene' was categorically more than just setting an example like Hüsker Dü. They were friends with Kurt Cobain and encouraged him to take Nirvana to a major label, and they went out of their way to know as many people in indie rock at the time as they could and made their feelings know as far as where they felt like people should go. Their recommendation to Kurt flowed from Sonic Youth's sense that their move from SST to a major had been good, and it influenced a lot of people – largely because Sonic Youth wasn't shy about letting people know how they felt.
posted by koeselitz at 2:18 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
If Steve Albini has such disdain for mainstream culture and media, he's a fool for being anything less than surprised that a magazine like GQ might twist the sentiment of what he said in order to get more eyeballs or whatever (if that's in fact what happened here). That being said, he's a legend and I have a lot of respect for the man, even if he does seem like a grump most of the time. Plus, how awesome is it that he mostly watches cat video on YouTube?
James Greer (briefly of GbV fame) had an interesting take on what it was like to work with Albini when he recorded some tunes for the Under the Bushes Under the Stars LP. It's in two parts so here's the second one.
posted by dhammond at 2:22 PM on October 6, 2010 [11 favorites]
James Greer (briefly of GbV fame) had an interesting take on what it was like to work with Albini when he recorded some tunes for the Under the Bushes Under the Stars LP. It's in two parts so here's the second one.
posted by dhammond at 2:22 PM on October 6, 2010 [11 favorites]
ripley_: “I really haven't seen any evidence of them encouraging other bands to do so. SY continued making solid albums throughout the 90's - who cares what label they did it on?”
Kim Gordon called Kurt Cobain half a dozen times to try to get him to sign to DGC, as I recall. Wikipedia agrees with me, citing this book.
posted by koeselitz at 2:25 PM on October 6, 2010
Kim Gordon called Kurt Cobain half a dozen times to try to get him to sign to DGC, as I recall. Wikipedia agrees with me, citing this book.
posted by koeselitz at 2:25 PM on October 6, 2010
Cranky man is cranky.*
with all due respect to Mr. Albini
posted by The Michael The at 2:27 PM on October 6, 2010
with all due respect to Mr. Albini
posted by The Michael The at 2:27 PM on October 6, 2010
You don't act like an asshole when you go to the barber. So why act like an asshole when you're in a band?
The barber has ready access to a sharp blade, and the power to make you look like an asshole until your hair grows back out. So, uh, maybe you need a better analogy, there.
Maybe the analogy is better than you think.
posted by John Cohen at 2:28 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The barber has ready access to a sharp blade, and the power to make you look like an asshole until your hair grows back out. So, uh, maybe you need a better analogy, there.
Maybe the analogy is better than you think.
posted by John Cohen at 2:28 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I've never gotten into Sonic Youth. That self-titled EP is great, Confusion is Sex is awesome at points, but I listened to Daydream Nation a few times and just got bored. I realize now that I don't think I've ever listened to Dirty all the way through – nor Goo or any of the other 'big' Sonic albums. Hrm.
Oh, you're really missing out. Though Daydream Nation is their most vaunted album, I could easily see being bored by it. I really recommend giving a chance to Goo; Dirty; Experimental Jet Set, Trash, and No Star; and Washing Machine. They might not win you as much indie cred as Daydream Nation, but who cares?
posted by John Cohen at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Oh, you're really missing out. Though Daydream Nation is their most vaunted album, I could easily see being bored by it. I really recommend giving a chance to Goo; Dirty; Experimental Jet Set, Trash, and No Star; and Washing Machine. They might not win you as much indie cred as Daydream Nation, but who cares?
posted by John Cohen at 2:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Having lived in Chicago and thinking I was cool in the early 90s, I'd be a huge hypocrite if I suddenly now started going all anti-Steve Albini.
That said, the fact that I've had Chumbawamba's Tubthumping going through my all day can be blamed on reading that interview, and for that, he is not -- and forever will not be -- forgiven.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
That said, the fact that I've had Chumbawamba's Tubthumping going through my all day can be blamed on reading that interview, and for that, he is not -- and forever will not be -- forgiven.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, is this where we regain indie cred by talking about how our favorite Sonic Youth record is better than your favorite sonic youth record? In that case, chalk up a hearty vote for EVOL, which is fucking amazing.
posted by dersins at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by dersins at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
You know what? Eff 'im.
Sonic Youth-era DGC is one of the greatest record labels that has ever existed.
That it spawned a host of desperate "alternative" copycats is unfortunate, but I don't think Sonic Youth bears any of the blame for that. David Geffen, however...
posted by Sys Rq at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
Sonic Youth-era DGC is one of the greatest record labels that has ever existed.
That it spawned a host of desperate "alternative" copycats is unfortunate, but I don't think Sonic Youth bears any of the blame for that. David Geffen, however...
posted by Sys Rq at 2:33 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
Thanks for the GBV links, dhammond. So stoked for the Detroit stop of the reunion tour.
posted by joe lisboa at 2:34 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by joe lisboa at 2:34 PM on October 6, 2010
Senor Cardgage: "The dude could talk about his favorite ice cream flavor in a way that would make me want to strangle him."
I think as long as your favorite flavor ice cream is StrawbeRecording Engineer you'd get along fine.
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 2:35 PM on October 6, 2010
I think as long as your favorite flavor ice cream is StrawbeRecording Engineer you'd get along fine.
posted by Slack-a-gogo at 2:35 PM on October 6, 2010
OH MY FUCKING GOD GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF ALBINI
CAPS DON'T MAKE YOU SMART.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:37 PM on October 6, 2010
CAPS DON'T MAKE YOU SMART.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:37 PM on October 6, 2010
Of course, it would be tragic for me to start trying to listen to later Sonic Youth, because then I would no longer be able to say: "eh, they've sucked since their first album."
posted by koeselitz at 2:38 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 2:38 PM on October 6, 2010
Saw Albini on the streets once, my friend called him a new waver.
He turned around in passing and said "No! PUNK ROCK!"
"Told ya he thinks he's a punk." said my friend.
"Doesn't everyone think they're a punk?" I asked.
"No some people like new wave."
posted by Max Power at 2:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [13 favorites]
He turned around in passing and said "No! PUNK ROCK!"
"Told ya he thinks he's a punk." said my friend.
"Doesn't everyone think they're a punk?" I asked.
"No some people like new wave."
posted by Max Power at 2:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [13 favorites]
I was more surprised to find out that Albini doesn't like movies. I would've pictured him as a total movie buff. He has such a theatrical style, I would've said--has he ever written a song that's not in the first person?
P.S. Hey, how come no love for Sister?
posted by equalpants at 2:43 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
P.S. Hey, how come no love for Sister?
posted by equalpants at 2:43 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
but I don't think Sonic Youth bears any of the blame for that.
Well, the argument is that when Sonic Youth was getting some money/notoriety out of signing with a major label, they were actively recruiting and encouraging other, smaller bands to do so. Nirvana happens to be the only one who got famous out of it, and that turned out... ...mixed.
There were plenty of other bands who didn't get anywhere with it, and some of them were actively harmed by it. I know this because I was friends with a band later who went through it. I've met members of SY a couple times, and I would guess that they had nothing but the best of intentions, but weren't terribly thoughtful about it. They were doing really well with their major label deals, and I think they wanted to spread it around.
But they negotiated from a position of relative strength. Nobody else that they encouraged did, and it showed.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:43 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
Well, the argument is that when Sonic Youth was getting some money/notoriety out of signing with a major label, they were actively recruiting and encouraging other, smaller bands to do so. Nirvana happens to be the only one who got famous out of it, and that turned out... ...mixed.
There were plenty of other bands who didn't get anywhere with it, and some of them were actively harmed by it. I know this because I was friends with a band later who went through it. I've met members of SY a couple times, and I would guess that they had nothing but the best of intentions, but weren't terribly thoughtful about it. They were doing really well with their major label deals, and I think they wanted to spread it around.
But they negotiated from a position of relative strength. Nobody else that they encouraged did, and it showed.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:43 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
Re: Albini
Love his producin' hate his posin'
posted by Ironmouth at 2:44 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Love his producin' hate his posin'
posted by Ironmouth at 2:44 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Will do, Mr Cohen. Thx.
No problem, glad to hear it. The better portion of Sonic Youth's oeuvre isn't just really good music, but it's some of the most profoundly influential and innovative rock music since the late '80s. I think Daydream Nation gets the most credit partly because it was earlier and so it's easier to call it their most influential/innovative album. But their mid-'90s work might be a better gateway. They're a band that just can't be ignored if you have any interest in music that's been labeled "alternative rock" or "indie rock" from the past 20 years.
posted by John Cohen at 2:47 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
No problem, glad to hear it. The better portion of Sonic Youth's oeuvre isn't just really good music, but it's some of the most profoundly influential and innovative rock music since the late '80s. I think Daydream Nation gets the most credit partly because it was earlier and so it's easier to call it their most influential/innovative album. But their mid-'90s work might be a better gateway. They're a band that just can't be ignored if you have any interest in music that's been labeled "alternative rock" or "indie rock" from the past 20 years.
posted by John Cohen at 2:47 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
According to the writer Albini's claim to fame is Shellac? Fuck that shit. BIG BLACK.
posted by doublesix at 2:47 PM on October 6, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by doublesix at 2:47 PM on October 6, 2010 [12 favorites]
Look at 1991 in his discography - holy cow. Even if it were just that Cath Carroll record I'd take it, but Wedding Present, Jesus Lizard, Volcano Suns, Urge Overkill... Wow.
Also - "Prayer To God" isn't merely a song. It's a supersong, designed and executed to smash you in the face for its duration, take what it wants from you and ultimately leave you, shaking, to figure out what the hell just happened. Bless its pointed little head.
posted by mintcake! at 2:49 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Also - "Prayer To God" isn't merely a song. It's a supersong, designed and executed to smash you in the face for its duration, take what it wants from you and ultimately leave you, shaking, to figure out what the hell just happened. Bless its pointed little head.
posted by mintcake! at 2:49 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
You know, the key to this article is the writer saying "Shellac rarely plays live"
That is a deliberate piece of bullshit that trys to make Albini and anything he touches sound elite and not for you. Shellac tour regularly and I've seen them multiple times without even trying.
As for his producing work this response is worth reading. In short:
"As I made clear in an essay and in every single thing I do, the band pays for everything involved in their recording and career, one way or another. As an engineer, I work for the band. If a band is on a big label and uses their funding up front, whatever, it still comes out of their hide eventually, and my responsibilities and obligations are to them, the band. I don't work for the label, I work for the band. My working methods and business practices have developed over the years to be as responsible to- and supportive of the bands as possible. Also, I see the band as peers in the music subculture, so my sympathies naturally are always with the band."
posted by lumpenprole at 2:55 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
That is a deliberate piece of bullshit that trys to make Albini and anything he touches sound elite and not for you. Shellac tour regularly and I've seen them multiple times without even trying.
As for his producing work this response is worth reading. In short:
"As I made clear in an essay and in every single thing I do, the band pays for everything involved in their recording and career, one way or another. As an engineer, I work for the band. If a band is on a big label and uses their funding up front, whatever, it still comes out of their hide eventually, and my responsibilities and obligations are to them, the band. I don't work for the label, I work for the band. My working methods and business practices have developed over the years to be as responsible to- and supportive of the bands as possible. Also, I see the band as peers in the music subculture, so my sympathies naturally are always with the band."
posted by lumpenprole at 2:55 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
Well, the argument is that when Sonic Youth was getting some money/notoriety out of signing with a major label, they were actively recruiting and encouraging other, smaller bands to do so.
Yeah, but being a devil's advocate doesn't make one the devil. Sonic Youth may have lent their encouragement, but they weren't the ones writing up the devil's bargain contracts specifically tailored to exploit naive hopefuls. That's all on the labels themselves.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:58 PM on October 6, 2010
Yeah, but being a devil's advocate doesn't make one the devil. Sonic Youth may have lent their encouragement, but they weren't the ones writing up the devil's bargain contracts specifically tailored to exploit naive hopefuls. That's all on the labels themselves.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:58 PM on October 6, 2010
Mainly what I got from this article and thread commentary was that Sonic Youth might not be as overrated as I thought. Maybe I ought to give them a re-listen. Especially since I loved their cover of of Superstar by the Carpenters.
Albini? Admirably irascible, borderline hypocritical, always a favorite to read about. Thanks, Rangeboy!
posted by xenophile at 3:00 PM on October 6, 2010
Albini? Admirably irascible, borderline hypocritical, always a favorite to read about. Thanks, Rangeboy!
posted by xenophile at 3:00 PM on October 6, 2010
That's all on the labels themselves.
Not... totally. Though I see what you're saying. SY was actively saying to people "Get over your fear of major labels, this is actually pretty fun." And like I said before, I think it was for them, and thus came from an honest place.
But as anyone who has watched bands go their arcs on many levels, that was pretty rarefied air, and wouldn't hold true for almost every other band that got involved with labels. The argument was, and still is, SY should have known better. They were getting paid with money made by milking smaller bands. The very types of bands SY was encouraging.
It's not a clear case of good/bad, right/wrong. But it did cast a pall over a band whose music I unreservedly love.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:05 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Not... totally. Though I see what you're saying. SY was actively saying to people "Get over your fear of major labels, this is actually pretty fun." And like I said before, I think it was for them, and thus came from an honest place.
But as anyone who has watched bands go their arcs on many levels, that was pretty rarefied air, and wouldn't hold true for almost every other band that got involved with labels. The argument was, and still is, SY should have known better. They were getting paid with money made by milking smaller bands. The very types of bands SY was encouraging.
It's not a clear case of good/bad, right/wrong. But it did cast a pall over a band whose music I unreservedly love.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:05 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
To be honest, and I know I'm going to sound like a total asshole, but whatever...I think Sonic Youth peaked with EVOL, and basically put out Sister on the vapors of that...
Oh sure, I enjoyed Daydream Nation although I thought it was forced and conventional to be honest, but it was what they had to do to open a crack into the collegiate radio scene while sorta keeping their NYC art damage-cred, and hell they'd worked and toured and networked and played their motherfuckin' asses off and that moment comes in every band where it's like, look are we ever going to be able to pay the rent doing this shit and working 120 hour weeks and living breathing this crap? So I don't begrudge them their success and Albini is being a myopic twat to say they need to be embarrassed about that, as he himself jumped on making a real living off all the thankless punk rock ass tasks that come with being pure and retaining credibility. Why was it okay for him, but not okay for Sonic Youth? Hell, he easily owes SY his house from the work they threw his way by opening up DGC, and DGC taking up the most important band of the 90s (Nirvana) and the feeding frenzy that followed in the industry as the floodgates were opened and every indie band with a self-recorded EP or Tape is getting industry people checking them out and signing them, most of those bands got screwed in a few years time, but shit...for a while it was like an indie rock gold rush...
Anyhow, I suppose I should read the article...(sorry.. as someone hanging on the wisdom of this guy and who watched Bad Moon Rising SY get blown off the stage by Big Black at the Peppermint Lounge in 1984 I kinda feel can do a fair impression of Albini he's pretty predicatable... SY had come to and end of it's first phase and Bob BErt was seriously holding them back....Thurston put a trash can over Bert's head after the dismal show was over....).
There was a point in the mid-90s I went to see SY on a fluke and to me at that point they were an oldies act...but damned if the shit off n a Washing Machine did not stay with me and rock like a mother fucker called Tom Violence looking for a Green Light and trippin fierce in the Deathvalley of 69 as hard as a diamond sea....
Also, in 1985, when SY opened up for the Minute Men at Irving Plaza, while tripping I had a psychic orgasm with Kim Gordon (I was right in front of her...it was just me and her...no joke) during the climax of Expressway to your skull), we were staring at one another I was 18 and I started trembling and she started trembling and holy fuck......
So yeah, SY pretty much peaked for me in 1985.
posted by Skygazer at 3:07 PM on October 6, 2010 [8 favorites]
Oh sure, I enjoyed Daydream Nation although I thought it was forced and conventional to be honest, but it was what they had to do to open a crack into the collegiate radio scene while sorta keeping their NYC art damage-cred, and hell they'd worked and toured and networked and played their motherfuckin' asses off and that moment comes in every band where it's like, look are we ever going to be able to pay the rent doing this shit and working 120 hour weeks and living breathing this crap? So I don't begrudge them their success and Albini is being a myopic twat to say they need to be embarrassed about that, as he himself jumped on making a real living off all the thankless punk rock ass tasks that come with being pure and retaining credibility. Why was it okay for him, but not okay for Sonic Youth? Hell, he easily owes SY his house from the work they threw his way by opening up DGC, and DGC taking up the most important band of the 90s (Nirvana) and the feeding frenzy that followed in the industry as the floodgates were opened and every indie band with a self-recorded EP or Tape is getting industry people checking them out and signing them, most of those bands got screwed in a few years time, but shit...for a while it was like an indie rock gold rush...
Anyhow, I suppose I should read the article...(sorry.. as someone hanging on the wisdom of this guy and who watched Bad Moon Rising SY get blown off the stage by Big Black at the Peppermint Lounge in 1984 I kinda feel can do a fair impression of Albini he's pretty predicatable... SY had come to and end of it's first phase and Bob BErt was seriously holding them back....Thurston put a trash can over Bert's head after the dismal show was over....).
There was a point in the mid-90s I went to see SY on a fluke and to me at that point they were an oldies act...but damned if the shit off n a Washing Machine did not stay with me and rock like a mother fucker called Tom Violence looking for a Green Light and trippin fierce in the Deathvalley of 69 as hard as a diamond sea....
Also, in 1985, when SY opened up for the Minute Men at Irving Plaza, while tripping I had a psychic orgasm with Kim Gordon (I was right in front of her...it was just me and her...no joke) during the climax of Expressway to your skull), we were staring at one another I was 18 and I started trembling and she started trembling and holy fuck......
So yeah, SY pretty much peaked for me in 1985.
posted by Skygazer at 3:07 PM on October 6, 2010 [8 favorites]
Mainly what I got from this article and thread commentary was that Sonic Youth might not be as overrated as I thought.
Nope. You were right the first time.
posted by cjets at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2010
Nope. You were right the first time.
posted by cjets at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2010
Sonic Youth might not be as overrated as I thought
I think the problem is they are underrated by people who don't actually listen to them.
posted by swift at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2010 [9 favorites]
I think the problem is they are underrated by people who don't actually listen to them.
posted by swift at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2010 [9 favorites]
I hate all of this major vs. indie label artistic purity nonsense. "Oh, yeah, Miles Davis...well, I was into his Prestige stuff, but he sold out when he signed with Columbia. Fuck Kind of Blue, man!"
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:10 PM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:10 PM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
Fuck Kind of Blue, man!
Did you really just make a parallel between Kind of Blue and Goo?
*Falls off bar stool*
posted by Skygazer at 3:17 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Did you really just make a parallel between Kind of Blue and Goo?
*Falls off bar stool*
posted by Skygazer at 3:17 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
In high school, I basically only listened to Touch & Go records. At Action Park came out when I was 15, and it was a total revelation to me. Now, all the Shellac records (and the Big Black records and Rapeman records) sound really dated to me.
Those Jesus Lizard records, though. They really hold up.
As for Sonic Youth - Sister is where it's at. "Catholic Block" is a scorcher. A life changer. A magical universe.
posted by orville sash at 3:21 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Those Jesus Lizard records, though. They really hold up.
As for Sonic Youth - Sister is where it's at. "Catholic Block" is a scorcher. A life changer. A magical universe.
posted by orville sash at 3:21 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
for a while it was like an indie rock gold rush...
Eponysterical. It was exactly like the gold rush. A very, very few people got rich of gold, and most people went broke looking for it. Meanwhile, the industries that facilitated people going broke made money hand over fist.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:23 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
Eponysterical. It was exactly like the gold rush. A very, very few people got rich of gold, and most people went broke looking for it. Meanwhile, the industries that facilitated people going broke made money hand over fist.
posted by lumpenprole at 3:23 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
I thought it was irritating crankery like most Albini I've read, but the response won my heart:
How would you describe your fashion?posted by frenetic at 3:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think fashion is repulsive. The whole idea that someone else can make clothing that is supposed to be in style and make other people look good is ridiculous. It sickens me to think that there is an industry that plays to the low self-esteem of the general public. I would like the fashion industry to collapse. I think it plays to the most superficial, most insecure parts of human nature. I hope GQ as a magazine fails. I hope that all of these people who make a living by looking pretty are eventually made destitute or forced to do something of substance. At least pornography has a function.
I really hate Steve Albini for ruining the last Jarvis Cocker album.
posted by KokuRyu at 3:32 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 3:32 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
My only criticism of Albini is his baggy t-shirt and belt guitar strap; Style and fashion keep you from dressing like a toddler Steve.
posted by dobie at 3:38 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by dobie at 3:38 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
> Did you really just make a parallel between Kind of Blue and Goo?
The albums themselves have nothing in common, really. I just hate this childish whining about "mainstream" culture. Whenever this issue pops up I'm reminded of a scene in Still Bill (which is great, btw) where Bill Withers is asked about selling out and he asks why artists are the only ones who get upheld to this standard; if he were a paint store owner, no-one would complain about him selling too much paint. It's not his - or any other artist's - responsibility to uphold someone else's idea of artistic purity. Albini complains about SY's "sellout and a corruption of a perfectly valid, well-oiled music scene," but he can afford to have this holier-than-thou attitude because he has a day job as a producer to fall back on. I actually agree with most of what he has to say about the music industry exploiting artists, but when it comes to stuff like this -
"They chose to join the mainstream culture and become a foot soldier for that culture's encroachment into my neck of the woods by acting as scouts"
- I'm reminded of the High Fidelity-wannabe record store owner who told me that if I wanted to buy the new Jon Spencer Blues Explosion album (give me a break, it was 1996) I could get it at Wal-Mart, because he didn't dig that lame-o, corporate mainstream crap. It's just hipsters protecting the sanctity of their little club.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:42 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
The albums themselves have nothing in common, really. I just hate this childish whining about "mainstream" culture. Whenever this issue pops up I'm reminded of a scene in Still Bill (which is great, btw) where Bill Withers is asked about selling out and he asks why artists are the only ones who get upheld to this standard; if he were a paint store owner, no-one would complain about him selling too much paint. It's not his - or any other artist's - responsibility to uphold someone else's idea of artistic purity. Albini complains about SY's "sellout and a corruption of a perfectly valid, well-oiled music scene," but he can afford to have this holier-than-thou attitude because he has a day job as a producer to fall back on. I actually agree with most of what he has to say about the music industry exploiting artists, but when it comes to stuff like this -
"They chose to join the mainstream culture and become a foot soldier for that culture's encroachment into my neck of the woods by acting as scouts"
- I'm reminded of the High Fidelity-wannabe record store owner who told me that if I wanted to buy the new Jon Spencer Blues Explosion album (give me a break, it was 1996) I could get it at Wal-Mart, because he didn't dig that lame-o, corporate mainstream crap. It's just hipsters protecting the sanctity of their little club.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:42 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I may not always agree with Albini, but his honesty is refreshing. I've never read an interview or angry screed of his and wondered about his sincerity.
posted by TrialByMedia at 3:45 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by TrialByMedia at 3:45 PM on October 6, 2010
Man. Sonic Youth rule. The critics are right.
What other bands with well-known names are still making great music 27 years into their career? 27 years after Please Please Me was what... 1990? What were George and Paul doing in 1990?
And Sister is totally the best.
posted by keratacon at 3:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
What other bands with well-known names are still making great music 27 years into their career? 27 years after Please Please Me was what... 1990? What were George and Paul doing in 1990?
And Sister is totally the best.
posted by keratacon at 3:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Your favorite Sonic Youth album sucks.
My favorite Sonic Youth album rules.
posted by chillmost at 3:55 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
My favorite Sonic Youth album rules.
posted by chillmost at 3:55 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
I hate all of this major vs. indie label artistic purity nonsense.
Eh. I think Albini makes it pretty clear that his opinions aren't a matter of "purity". As he says in the response that lumpenprole cites above:
"It's easy to see why somebody might think my own behavior smacks of hypocrisy. They think I'm looking at it like some cultural kosher/treyf thing, where either there's corporate money involved or not. Either there's shellfish in it or not. I have tried my best to make it understood that this is not my thinking, but it seldom registers."
My sense is that he doesn't like majors because they treat music like a commodity and they treat bands like shit.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Eh. I think Albini makes it pretty clear that his opinions aren't a matter of "purity". As he says in the response that lumpenprole cites above:
"It's easy to see why somebody might think my own behavior smacks of hypocrisy. They think I'm looking at it like some cultural kosher/treyf thing, where either there's corporate money involved or not. Either there's shellfish in it or not. I have tried my best to make it understood that this is not my thinking, but it seldom registers."
My sense is that he doesn't like majors because they treat music like a commodity and they treat bands like shit.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:01 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
To be honest, and I know I'm going to sound like a total asshole, but whatever...I think Sonic Youth peaked with EVOL, and basically put out Sister on the vapors of that...
Not an asshole, just wrong.
I view Sonic Youth's trajectory as a rocket taking off, with Daydream Nation being the point that they finally cleared the gravity of earth. So it's all good, all exciting, all one beautiful trip ... everything album conscious of what came before it and making no excuses.
posted by philip-random at 4:07 PM on October 6, 2010
Not an asshole, just wrong.
I view Sonic Youth's trajectory as a rocket taking off, with Daydream Nation being the point that they finally cleared the gravity of earth. So it's all good, all exciting, all one beautiful trip ... everything album conscious of what came before it and making no excuses.
posted by philip-random at 4:07 PM on October 6, 2010
Did you really just make a parallel between Kind of Blue and Goo?
*Falls off bar stool*
Did you really just post a comment on Metafilter from a bar?
*Falls off couch, knocks over drink*
posted by nevercalm at 4:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
*Falls off bar stool*
Did you really just post a comment on Metafilter from a bar?
*Falls off couch, knocks over drink*
posted by nevercalm at 4:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
I love what he said about John Peel.
posted by boo_radley at 4:20 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by boo_radley at 4:20 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
This is a really interesting post and I appreciate it, but man it really sounds like Albini is just sticking to his schtick.
As frenetic points out though, he's right on about the fashion thing.
posted by snsranch at 4:24 PM on October 6, 2010
As frenetic points out though, he's right on about the fashion thing.
posted by snsranch at 4:24 PM on October 6, 2010
Brilliant analysis of the whole thing by Eric Harvey.
posted by kersplunk at 4:25 PM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
posted by kersplunk at 4:25 PM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
Did you really just make a parallel between Kind of Blue and Goo?
*Falls off bar stool*
Did you really just post a comment on Metafilter from a bar?
*Falls off couch, knocks over drink*
Did you really just knock over my drink?
*Falls over drink, lands on couch*
posted by davejay at 4:34 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
*Falls off bar stool*
Did you really just post a comment on Metafilter from a bar?
*Falls off couch, knocks over drink*
Did you really just knock over my drink?
*Falls over drink, lands on couch*
posted by davejay at 4:34 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The fashion industry is certainly awful. I wonder, though, what he would propose by way of an (ahem) alternative? People have to wear something, and unless he's suggesting everyone wear identical featureless sacks someone has to design these clothes. And even if it's an industry comprised entirely of creative, independent designers and tailors (or even a world where everyone makes their own clothes), people (human nature being what it is) will still want to look good in the clothes they wear, and some will look better than others. Which means we're back to square one, even in Mr. Albini's idealized vision of the world.
Marge: Homer, it's easy to criticize.
Homer: Fun, too!
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Marge: Homer, it's easy to criticize.
Homer: Fun, too!
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:39 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
It's a shame about all those poor kids influenced by The Beatles and The Stones, too.
posted by ovvl at 4:41 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by ovvl at 4:41 PM on October 6, 2010
Given that 2 SY members run indie labels (ecstatic peace and smells like records) I think it's a bit weird to cast them as big label scouts. Nirvana would be the big thing they did for DGC, but DGC _had_ a third of the cast and crew of 90s alternarock on their roster already.
I started a band with a friend called thurston moore is a faggot... through weird connections we're probably going to do a split 7" with thurston himself...
I think one of the SYers said if they were in it for the money they would've broken up (for good) and then got back together.
This interview has no hullabaloo it's all just rocknrollnoise anyway.
posted by nutate at 5:05 PM on October 6, 2010
I started a band with a friend called thurston moore is a faggot... through weird connections we're probably going to do a split 7" with thurston himself...
I think one of the SYers said if they were in it for the money they would've broken up (for good) and then got back together.
This interview has no hullabaloo it's all just rocknrollnoise anyway.
posted by nutate at 5:05 PM on October 6, 2010
I just hate this childish whining about "mainstream" culture.
This reminds me of a friend of mine who quipped that most of the time, if someone complains that a band has "sold out," it's just a short way of saying "too many people who aren't cool like them now."
posted by K.P. at 5:08 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
This reminds me of a friend of mine who quipped that most of the time, if someone complains that a band has "sold out," it's just a short way of saying "too many people who aren't cool like them now."
posted by K.P. at 5:08 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Albini's kind of a douche, but he likes ZZ Top a lot so he must be OK deep down.
posted by jonmc at 5:14 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by jonmc at 5:14 PM on October 6, 2010
MetaFilter: opportunistic new media douchebags with an agenda and a lust for controversy
posted by moss at 5:14 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by moss at 5:14 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
This reminds me of a friend of mine who quipped that most of the time, if someone complains that a band has "sold out," it's just a short way of saying "too many people who aren't cool like them now."
I would prefer to share my joy in art with people who are cool. When I find out people I hate like the same thing I do it makes it less enjoyable to me.
posted by josher71 at 5:23 PM on October 6, 2010
I would prefer to share my joy in art with people who are cool. When I find out people I hate like the same thing I do it makes it less enjoyable to me.
posted by josher71 at 5:23 PM on October 6, 2010
Steve Albini gave me some music advice on a poker forum. He's great and very nice to people who aren't dummies. He's not very nice to dummies tho.
One thing he might be missing here perhaps is that rock music with drums and guitars and stuff will probably never be Super-popular again. The kids listen to pop an hiphop and dance music. Indie, punk, anything with a "band" really, all are as dead as 80s jazz. Turn out the lights when we finally drop Steve kthanksbye!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:32 PM on October 6, 2010
One thing he might be missing here perhaps is that rock music with drums and guitars and stuff will probably never be Super-popular again. The kids listen to pop an hiphop and dance music. Indie, punk, anything with a "band" really, all are as dead as 80s jazz. Turn out the lights when we finally drop Steve kthanksbye!
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:32 PM on October 6, 2010
Sonic Youth was the heaviest, tightest band all weekend at Matador at 21. They're still in fine fettle.
(Also, Lee Ranaldo came over to check out the merch while I was in line. !!)
posted by limeonaire at 5:35 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
(Also, Lee Ranaldo came over to check out the merch while I was in line. !!)
posted by limeonaire at 5:35 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Albini has some beautiful things to say about John Peel:
[Peel] said that no one would bother making a record and sending it to him if he thought it was shitty. Obviously, to the people making those records, they are important. If he doesn't get it as a listener, if he didn't like it in some way, that's his fault, not the fault of the people who did something important to them. That's a pretty amazing, humble insight for someone like him to have. A lot of radio professionals kind of feel like they know the game, they know what's good. His way of looking at it was much more selfless: there was this culture of bands creating music and he was getting to audition some of it. Then he could spread it out to the rest of the world if it struck his fancy. Just because he didn't like something didn't mean it was bad. He was just deaf to it.
posted by ferdydurke at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
[Peel] said that no one would bother making a record and sending it to him if he thought it was shitty. Obviously, to the people making those records, they are important. If he doesn't get it as a listener, if he didn't like it in some way, that's his fault, not the fault of the people who did something important to them. That's a pretty amazing, humble insight for someone like him to have. A lot of radio professionals kind of feel like they know the game, they know what's good. His way of looking at it was much more selfless: there was this culture of bands creating music and he was getting to audition some of it. Then he could spread it out to the rest of the world if it struck his fancy. Just because he didn't like something didn't mean it was bad. He was just deaf to it.
posted by ferdydurke at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
See also, and also, and also, and also. It was all just one big wall of sound.
posted by limeonaire at 5:44 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by limeonaire at 5:44 PM on October 6, 2010
Indie, punk, anything with a "band" really, all are as dead as 80s jazz.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't follow new music much anymore.
Dance, sure, but hip hop is in the "tired" spot that rock was in when hip hop ousted it decades ago.
I go to a lot of shows and festivals and believe me, the kids still very much love indie rock, albeit in a wider variety of flavors than we're ruling the bandwidth back in the early 90s.
It's a pretty terrific time to have working ears right now.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 5:45 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't follow new music much anymore.
Dance, sure, but hip hop is in the "tired" spot that rock was in when hip hop ousted it decades ago.
I go to a lot of shows and festivals and believe me, the kids still very much love indie rock, albeit in a wider variety of flavors than we're ruling the bandwidth back in the early 90s.
It's a pretty terrific time to have working ears right now.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 5:45 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Skygazer: “Did you really just make a parallel between Kind of Blue and Goo?”
Hmm. Is Goo an overrated album by an untalented, exploitative hack who never cared about another musician in his entire life? I've always thought Thurston and Kim were sort of elitist and hipstery, but I don't think they're that bad.
posted by koeselitz at 5:46 PM on October 6, 2010
Hmm. Is Goo an overrated album by an untalented, exploitative hack who never cared about another musician in his entire life? I've always thought Thurston and Kim were sort of elitist and hipstery, but I don't think they're that bad.
posted by koeselitz at 5:46 PM on October 6, 2010
the kids still very much love indie rock,
Most indie rock is neither indie nor rock.
posted by jonmc at 5:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Most indie rock is neither indie nor rock.
posted by jonmc at 5:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Damn this dovetails nicely with this first installment of the new A.V. Club feature that I was reading this morning. Particularly this passage:
Albini tends to see everything through the lens of ethical business, and I appreciate him for that because the music industry needs curmudgeons like him. But if he doesn't understand how worse off the landscape would have been had Nevermind not blown the whole thing wide open, then he's not looking at the whole picture.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2010 [14 favorites]
Being a kid in 1990 wasn’t all that different from being a kid in 2010 save for one massive technological step forward for mankind: the Internet. It didn’t exist back then—or, rather, kids like me did not have access to it. I didn’t even have a computer, nor did a lot of my friends. I was 12-going-on-13 in 1990, and my burgeoning interest in music was nurtured by three institutions: local radio, MTV, and the public library, where I could listen to vinyl records for free (CDs weren’t available there yet) and peruse scotch tape-covered copies of Rolling Stone, which is where I first read about “alternative” bands like U2, R.E.M., and The Replacements. If I wanted to buy a tape, I had to either convince my mother to drive me to the mall—a tall order considering how money-conscious she was as a single parent—or make the one-hour bike ride (one way!) to the only independent record store in town, an oppressively cool place that frankly terrified me, as most things did back then.I agree whole-heartedly with Albini on the evils of the major label scene. But he's also been in the middle of the music he digs for as long as he can remember, and his own music, as good as it is, was never going to be mainstream anyway. What Sonic Youth did brought the scene to the kids who otherwise would have had no idea it was out there, during a nadir for pop-music.
Following music took real work if you happened to 1) be under 18, 2) live in a small town, 3) get paid a small allowance, 4) not have a driver’s license, and 5) have limited access to media that could tell you about the latest groups. Keeping up with underground music was practically impossible; you couldn’t just log on and dial up a million blogs offering up free music without leaving your bedroom. Underground music was actually underground; you had to venture out and look for it, and only after somebody let you in on the secret that it was actually there. Maybe I could’ve discovered Pixies’ Bossanova had I searched a little harder, but how could I look for something that I didn’t even know existed? For me, what I heard on the radio and saw on MTV was the only music there even was.
Albini tends to see everything through the lens of ethical business, and I appreciate him for that because the music industry needs curmudgeons like him. But if he doesn't understand how worse off the landscape would have been had Nevermind not blown the whole thing wide open, then he's not looking at the whole picture.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2010 [14 favorites]
keratacon: “What other bands with well-known names are still making great music 27 years into their career?”
The fucking Mekons, motherfuckers.
Oh, you said "with well-known names." Well, why the fuck does that matter, now?
posted by koeselitz at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
The fucking Mekons, motherfuckers.
Oh, you said "with well-known names." Well, why the fuck does that matter, now?
posted by koeselitz at 5:53 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
From the Eric Harvey piece kersplunk links to above.
Moreover, Albini strategically ignores the messy, often downright unethical reality of 80s indie labels.
This definitely supports what I've generally heard of the good ole days of early indie, specifically from the Vancouver band DOA who, by 1990 had put out various albums and singles on various different labels, only one of whom had actually paid them a penny of royalties: Jello Biafra's Alternative Tenatacles, who it's great to see are still kicking.
posted by philip-random at 5:56 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Moreover, Albini strategically ignores the messy, often downright unethical reality of 80s indie labels.
This definitely supports what I've generally heard of the good ole days of early indie, specifically from the Vancouver band DOA who, by 1990 had put out various albums and singles on various different labels, only one of whom had actually paid them a penny of royalties: Jello Biafra's Alternative Tenatacles, who it's great to see are still kicking.
posted by philip-random at 5:56 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
When I find out people I hate like the same thing I do it makes it less enjoyable to me.
This attitude kept me away from the likes of ACDC and Led Zeppelin for a good decade. I was wrong, and a snob to boot.
posted by philip-random at 5:59 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
This attitude kept me away from the likes of ACDC and Led Zeppelin for a good decade. I was wrong, and a snob to boot.
posted by philip-random at 5:59 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
If they didn't see the music world as separate from the real world, most people would continue to behave honorably in their interactions with the music scene.
I have known a lot of asshole musicians (and rabid music fans). There's certainly a constellation of escapist behaviors associated with playing and otherwise being heavily into music (though of course it's not present among everyone who plays, nor among adherents of every subgenre) that doesn't always promote smooth interaction with other human beings. Hell, just look at Pavement—until the bitter end they've made amazing music together amid insane intraband tensions.
What's always clarified things for me, when I've met these people outside the context of music, has been finding out that they're heavily into X, Y, or Z band or scene; then I understand where they're coming from (even if I don't always appreciate their behavior). They make sense then.
I had to remind myself multiple times this weekend, for instance, while getting beer spilled on me and lines cut in front of me by some of the best beer-spillers and line-cutters in the world, that we were all there for the same reason, and that they were being assholes 'cause they were just as excited by and wrapped up in what was going on as I was.
Basically, Albini's got something here.
posted by limeonaire at 6:03 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have known a lot of asshole musicians (and rabid music fans). There's certainly a constellation of escapist behaviors associated with playing and otherwise being heavily into music (though of course it's not present among everyone who plays, nor among adherents of every subgenre) that doesn't always promote smooth interaction with other human beings. Hell, just look at Pavement—until the bitter end they've made amazing music together amid insane intraband tensions.
What's always clarified things for me, when I've met these people outside the context of music, has been finding out that they're heavily into X, Y, or Z band or scene; then I understand where they're coming from (even if I don't always appreciate their behavior). They make sense then.
I had to remind myself multiple times this weekend, for instance, while getting beer spilled on me and lines cut in front of me by some of the best beer-spillers and line-cutters in the world, that we were all there for the same reason, and that they were being assholes 'cause they were just as excited by and wrapped up in what was going on as I was.
Basically, Albini's got something here.
posted by limeonaire at 6:03 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Potomac Avenue: “Indie, punk, anything with a "band" really, all are as dead as 80s jazz. Turn out the lights when we finally drop Steve kthanksbye!”
Senor Cardgage: “I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't follow new music much anymore.”
No, he was absolutely right. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't follow 80s jazz much.
Seriously – Keith Jarrett's Standards series; I have one of those records, it's fantastic. Dave McKenna? Left-Handed Complement is awesome – man, I wish my hands were that fast or that huge – and that counts as an 80s album. Jaki Byard had a few great albums in the 80s! Even those Young Lions are pretty great; Wynton didn't end up a blowhard until well into the 90s, and that first album by his brother is a fuckin' masterpiece.
posted by koeselitz at 6:04 PM on October 6, 2010
Senor Cardgage: “I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't follow new music much anymore.”
No, he was absolutely right. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you don't follow 80s jazz much.
Seriously – Keith Jarrett's Standards series; I have one of those records, it's fantastic. Dave McKenna? Left-Handed Complement is awesome – man, I wish my hands were that fast or that huge – and that counts as an 80s album. Jaki Byard had a few great albums in the 80s! Even those Young Lions are pretty great; Wynton didn't end up a blowhard until well into the 90s, and that first album by his brother is a fuckin' masterpiece.
posted by koeselitz at 6:04 PM on October 6, 2010
*Falls off bar stool*
*Falls off couch, knocks over drink*
Are you people drinking while you post?
*Gestures wildly, flings crack pipe across room*
posted by Jimmy Havok at 6:05 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
*Falls off couch, knocks over drink*
Are you people drinking while you post?
*Gestures wildly, flings crack pipe across room*
posted by Jimmy Havok at 6:05 PM on October 6, 2010 [4 favorites]
But if he doesn't understand how worse off the landscape would have been had Nevermind not blown the whole thing wide open, then he's not looking at the whole picture.
See, but there I have to disagree. Nevermind may have paved the way for some good bands to receive recognition, but it also paved the way for the whole generation of complete yarling shit that is nu-metal, e.g., Nickelback, Korn, Limp Bizkit, etc.
posted by limeonaire at 6:09 PM on October 6, 2010
See, but there I have to disagree. Nevermind may have paved the way for some good bands to receive recognition, but it also paved the way for the whole generation of complete yarling shit that is nu-metal, e.g., Nickelback, Korn, Limp Bizkit, etc.
posted by limeonaire at 6:09 PM on October 6, 2010
*Crawls painfully up onto barstool, agaiñ*
Goo. No. Goo is not the equivalent musically in terms of a landmark that "Kind of Blue" is.
Koeselitz, I love you, but I will fight you drunken tiger-style over that....
Now. SY, needed to drop the dead weight who shall remain nameless (that O'Rourke fucker...shhhhhh. I hate that fcker).
And so on their latest, "Rather Ripped, SY pull "Jams Run Free" out of nowhere and destroy me. Gawd I love that song!!! Beautiful, and perfect. Another psychic orgasm achieved. Hurrah!
Rrkkdunnadunnadunnadunna...Jams in frees....
*Falls off bar stool. Again"
posted by Skygazer at 6:09 PM on October 6, 2010
Goo. No. Goo is not the equivalent musically in terms of a landmark that "Kind of Blue" is.
Koeselitz, I love you, but I will fight you drunken tiger-style over that....
Now. SY, needed to drop the dead weight who shall remain nameless (that O'Rourke fucker...shhhhhh. I hate that fcker).
And so on their latest, "Rather Ripped, SY pull "Jams Run Free" out of nowhere and destroy me. Gawd I love that song!!! Beautiful, and perfect. Another psychic orgasm achieved. Hurrah!
Rrkkdunnadunnadunnadunna...Jams in frees....
*Falls off bar stool. Again"
posted by Skygazer at 6:09 PM on October 6, 2010
Naw, you can't blame nu-metal on Nirvana. If you're going to blame nu-metal on anybody, blame it on the goddamned idiotic Prodigy.
posted by koeselitz at 6:10 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 6:10 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
See, but there I have to disagree. Nevermind may have paved the way for some good bands to receive recognition, but it also paved the way for the whole generation of complete yarling shit that is nu-metal, e.g., Nickelback, Korn, Limp Bizkit, etc.
The logic here's a bit perverse. Every great work of anything has always inspired inferior shit, likely all the way back to the cave days. To not do (or get behind) something great because some future body might find a way to rip off aspects of it (and badly) --- I just find that depressing. Why smile? Some asshole might smile back ... for the wrong reasons.
posted by philip-random at 6:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
The logic here's a bit perverse. Every great work of anything has always inspired inferior shit, likely all the way back to the cave days. To not do (or get behind) something great because some future body might find a way to rip off aspects of it (and badly) --- I just find that depressing. Why smile? Some asshole might smile back ... for the wrong reasons.
posted by philip-random at 6:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
limeonaire: his position seems to be to leave the crap for the mainstream anyway. When SY, Nirvana, Soundgarden, and all the other groups from that scene burst forward in the early nineties, nobody with any power in the industry even understood what was happening yet, much less how to exploit it in any other way than just thrusting it all up the flagpole. It wasn't until Silverchair hit that the schmucks got their game back in order, and in the interim, a lot of bands got through who otherwise never would have.
As a kid from that era, I'd have been totally lost were it not for that moment of breakthrough, and I never would have found it otherwise. My brothers were listening to cool stuff, but they were so much older than me that I didn't feel worthy of it at the time. It wasn't for me, it was for others who were cooler than me. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" (and more importantly Ten and Siamese Dream were brought to me. They were my own. ANd that never would have happened in a world where Sonic Youth had decided that they were better off only being heard by those who already knew where to find them.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:17 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
As a kid from that era, I'd have been totally lost were it not for that moment of breakthrough, and I never would have found it otherwise. My brothers were listening to cool stuff, but they were so much older than me that I didn't feel worthy of it at the time. It wasn't for me, it was for others who were cooler than me. "Smells Like Teen Spirit" (and more importantly Ten and Siamese Dream were brought to me. They were my own. ANd that never would have happened in a world where Sonic Youth had decided that they were better off only being heard by those who already knew where to find them.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:17 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
Skygazer: “Goo. No. Goo is not the equivalent musically in terms of a landmark that "Kind of Blue" is. Koeselitz, I love you, but I will fight you drunken tiger-style over that....”
Well, I should probably contextualize. I like a lot of the music on Kind Of Blue. In fact, 'like' is probably too light a term for it; I can play Trane's solo from "Blue in Green" verbatim, from memory, on at least three different instruments.
But you know where that song came from? Miles Davis and Bill Evans were talking about different chords, and Bill mentioned how awesome he thought the strange mix between a minor with a major seventh and a major with a minor seventh was. So Miles said: "if you were going to build a song out of that, what would you do?" That night, Bill wrote out the chords and threw down a melody, and they recorded it the next day.
Years later, when Bill was going through a bad coke habit, he asked Miles about that, since Miles had naturally put himself down as the composer of everything on Kind Of Blue (even though Bill Evans and others had written just about all of it). You know what Miles told that sad, down-on-his-luck, strung-out piano player, who had a conception of chord blocking beyond almost any other in his generation?
"Here's fifty bucks, Bill. Never mention it to me again."
Miles Davis was an untalented hack, an exploitation artist, and an asshole. Fuck Miles Davis. Anybody who's a musician can tell that his soloing is spare and his phrasing is for crap, and he can't hold a candle to anybody else in his era as far as quality of tone or depth of musical conception; everything he ever did he did because he was good at marketing himself and putting himself in the company of musicians who were vastly superior to himself. I like lots of stuff on Kind Of Blue, but seriously – fuck that guy.
posted by koeselitz at 6:22 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
Well, I should probably contextualize. I like a lot of the music on Kind Of Blue. In fact, 'like' is probably too light a term for it; I can play Trane's solo from "Blue in Green" verbatim, from memory, on at least three different instruments.
But you know where that song came from? Miles Davis and Bill Evans were talking about different chords, and Bill mentioned how awesome he thought the strange mix between a minor with a major seventh and a major with a minor seventh was. So Miles said: "if you were going to build a song out of that, what would you do?" That night, Bill wrote out the chords and threw down a melody, and they recorded it the next day.
Years later, when Bill was going through a bad coke habit, he asked Miles about that, since Miles had naturally put himself down as the composer of everything on Kind Of Blue (even though Bill Evans and others had written just about all of it). You know what Miles told that sad, down-on-his-luck, strung-out piano player, who had a conception of chord blocking beyond almost any other in his generation?
"Here's fifty bucks, Bill. Never mention it to me again."
Miles Davis was an untalented hack, an exploitation artist, and an asshole. Fuck Miles Davis. Anybody who's a musician can tell that his soloing is spare and his phrasing is for crap, and he can't hold a candle to anybody else in his era as far as quality of tone or depth of musical conception; everything he ever did he did because he was good at marketing himself and putting himself in the company of musicians who were vastly superior to himself. I like lots of stuff on Kind Of Blue, but seriously – fuck that guy.
posted by koeselitz at 6:22 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
I never would have found it otherwise.
Yes but when (often in lieu of an engaging personality/complexity of character/etc ) a certain kind of person depends on the exclusivity of a secret handshake or club for a major portion of their identity, they tend to get pissy and feel threatened when the punters all of a sudden gain access to it.
"It was so much easier when I could just tell people that I was either a mod or a rocker" and so forth.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:24 PM on October 6, 2010
Yes but when (often in lieu of an engaging personality/complexity of character/etc ) a certain kind of person depends on the exclusivity of a secret handshake or club for a major portion of their identity, they tend to get pissy and feel threatened when the punters all of a sudden gain access to it.
"It was so much easier when I could just tell people that I was either a mod or a rocker" and so forth.
posted by Senor Cardgage at 6:24 PM on October 6, 2010
Look at 1991 in his discography - holy cow. Even if it were just that Cath Carroll record I'd take it, but Wedding Present, Jesus Lizard, Volcano Suns, Urge Overkill... Wow.
Seamonsters was alright, I guess, but not like early Wedding Present - thinking specifically of George Best and Tommy.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:26 PM on October 6, 2010
Seamonsters was alright, I guess, but not like early Wedding Present - thinking specifically of George Best and Tommy.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:26 PM on October 6, 2010
And why no mention of Bad Moon Rising? Along with EVOL, the best Sonic Youth album, by far.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2010
You know, from the pull-quote on the front page I knew it was Albini. I'm listening to Tar's Jackson right now!
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:27 PM on October 6, 2010
And the more I think about it, the more it seems like Albini and SY really just differed on the proper battle strategy to deal with mainstream music sucking in a more palpable way than it ever had before. Albini's tactic was to let it die a dishonorable death, which is laudable considering how awful the industry is. SY decided to fill the void with something drastically different and better, which I can believe came to Albini as a hell of a betrayal, but was more likely to succeed by a long shot and probably reaped better fruits in the long run.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 6:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm listening to Tar's Jackson right now!
Walking the King is my favorite.
posted by josher71 at 6:33 PM on October 6, 2010
Walking the King is my favorite.
posted by josher71 at 6:33 PM on October 6, 2010
Every great work of anything has always inspired inferior shit, likely all the way back to the cave days. To not do (or get behind) something great because some future body might find a way to rip off aspects of it (and badly) --- I just find that depressing.
Well, I'm not saying Nirvana should've kept their light under a bushel—nor implying that they were even entirely in control of the process by which that light was revealed and then systematically exploited. I just don't know that Sonic Youth deciding to go major-label was really the catalyzing thing that brought them (and Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden, et al.) out into the world. All of this was larger than any individual indie-at-the-time band deciding that they wanted to be heard by the largest audience possible. What band doesn't want to be heard? Don't answer that; I know there are some. But Even Shellac, as lumpenprole points out above, wants to be heard.
I just spent the weekend soaking in the underground sounds of that time, and thought a lot about all of these forces. If I've concluded anything, it's that none of it's black or white; it was simultaneously fortunate and unfortunate that the ideals and sounds of the underground at the time were systematically unearthed and exploited and mainstreamed by the likes of MTV.
posted by limeonaire at 6:34 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Well, I'm not saying Nirvana should've kept their light under a bushel—nor implying that they were even entirely in control of the process by which that light was revealed and then systematically exploited. I just don't know that Sonic Youth deciding to go major-label was really the catalyzing thing that brought them (and Smashing Pumpkins, Soundgarden, et al.) out into the world. All of this was larger than any individual indie-at-the-time band deciding that they wanted to be heard by the largest audience possible. What band doesn't want to be heard? Don't answer that; I know there are some. But Even Shellac, as lumpenprole points out above, wants to be heard.
I just spent the weekend soaking in the underground sounds of that time, and thought a lot about all of these forces. If I've concluded anything, it's that none of it's black or white; it was simultaneously fortunate and unfortunate that the ideals and sounds of the underground at the time were systematically unearthed and exploited and mainstreamed by the likes of MTV.
posted by limeonaire at 6:34 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Seamonsters was alright, I guess, but not like early Wedding Present
Man, Seamonsters was one of those records that found me at precisely the right time. I have nothing but good things to say about it. Dalliance alone still affects me in ways a pop song should not: that is to say, sublimely.
posted by joe lisboa at 6:40 PM on October 6, 2010
Man, Seamonsters was one of those records that found me at precisely the right time. I have nothing but good things to say about it. Dalliance alone still affects me in ways a pop song should not: that is to say, sublimely.
posted by joe lisboa at 6:40 PM on October 6, 2010
And since I have not seen or heard from him in literally over a decade: Dan Henry of Elgin, IL, wherever you are, thank you for loaning me your copy of Seamonsters so many years ago in the karate dojo just off campus property. It meant the world to me. Drop me a line, I owe you a decade's worth of beers.
posted by joe lisboa at 6:49 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by joe lisboa at 6:49 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Formulaic music producer
What? I think it's your record collection that's formulaic.
Albini's worked with Nina Nastasia, Nirvana, Pixies, Urge Overkill, Slint, The Ex, Gogol Bordello, Magnolia Electric Co, Shadowy Men on a Shadowy Planet, McLusky, Electrelane, Cheap Trick, Edith Frost, Danielsson, Mono, Silkworm, Dirty Three, Gastr Del Sol, Palace, Melt Banana, Silver Apples, The Sadies, Low, The Downer Trio, Neurosis, Robbie Fulks, Man or Astroman, Godspeed, Scout Niblett, Superchunk, Tad, Scrawl, and Big Black.
What fuckin' formula do these bands have in common?
posted by dobbs at 6:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
What? I think it's your record collection that's formulaic.
Albini's worked with Nina Nastasia, Nirvana, Pixies, Urge Overkill, Slint, The Ex, Gogol Bordello, Magnolia Electric Co, Shadowy Men on a Shadowy Planet, McLusky, Electrelane, Cheap Trick, Edith Frost, Danielsson, Mono, Silkworm, Dirty Three, Gastr Del Sol, Palace, Melt Banana, Silver Apples, The Sadies, Low, The Downer Trio, Neurosis, Robbie Fulks, Man or Astroman, Godspeed, Scout Niblett, Superchunk, Tad, Scrawl, and Big Black.
What fuckin' formula do these bands have in common?
posted by dobbs at 6:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
What fuckin' formula do these bands have in common?
Plug In + Press 'Record'
posted by Sys Rq at 7:08 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Plug In + Press 'Record'
posted by Sys Rq at 7:08 PM on October 6, 2010 [3 favorites]
Once again I am schooled by my brilliant brothers on the mefi. Koeslitz we need to get together and listen to music. I'm sure Miles was a dick, but damn if he did not embody and inspire some ineffable other.
Jesus Lizard. Oh wow. Genius. Total motherfuckn' Genius. I once had a pscyhic orgasm David Yow and amlost diedbgettng crushed at a JL show at Irving Plaza.
*pukes on self*
He's a mouthbreather.......
posted by Skygazer at 7:10 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Jesus Lizard. Oh wow. Genius. Total motherfuckn' Genius. I once had a pscyhic orgasm David Yow and amlost diedbgettng crushed at a JL show at Irving Plaza.
*pukes on self*
He's a mouthbreather.......
posted by Skygazer at 7:10 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Sonic Youth was vaguely interesting to me for about 5 minutes back in 1986. Come to think of it, so was Steve Albini. I think I would rather listen to Rodney Dangerfield's Rap record than Big Black.
posted by existential hobo at 7:22 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by existential hobo at 7:22 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Seriously. The kick-in is all Alibini. So fucking powerful. They/he make you work for it, but not to the point where it is counter-productive. So fucking good.
posted by joe lisboa at 7:23 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by joe lisboa at 7:23 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
kersplunk, thanks for that link. Adds a lot of detail about what Sonic Youth was thinking during that time.
Talking to my friendly neighborhood record store clerk about Albini just last week, he said he'd never heard At Action Park. I stopped talking, walked over to the bins, grabbed a copy, gave it to him and said, "let's continue this conversation next week."
posted by mediareport at 7:24 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Talking to my friendly neighborhood record store clerk about Albini just last week, he said he'd never heard At Action Park. I stopped talking, walked over to the bins, grabbed a copy, gave it to him and said, "let's continue this conversation next week."
posted by mediareport at 7:24 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
I love Seamonsters too (I mean, a deep, top 10 love), but the production is deeply fucked up. It's the only record I own that I even have an opinion about its production. I just wish I could hear how it might have sounded if someone else had recorded it, in a normal way. Or, maybe it is what it is because of Albini?
But man, Gedge and Albini recording together, two mammoth egos. What the hell would that have been like? Albini refuses to talk about recording Seamonsters - my theory is that the fucked-upedness is some sort of FU to Gedge.
posted by Flashman at 7:26 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
But man, Gedge and Albini recording together, two mammoth egos. What the hell would that have been like? Albini refuses to talk about recording Seamonsters - my theory is that the fucked-upedness is some sort of FU to Gedge.
posted by Flashman at 7:26 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
Formulaic music producer
Yeah, it's really weird when people say this. From what I know about his working methods he:
a) records anyone who will pay him, regardless of style or genre
b) records using high-end vintage analog gear with a high level of technical skill, in a way that emphasizes transparency with minimal interference with the performance or post-production fussing
c) asserts no editorial or creative sway over the bands he records unless directly asked to do so by the band, and even then only reluctantly
If that's a formula it's a pretty good one.
As a pretty big Sonic Youth fan, I can't say this interview got my hackles up in any way. I don't agree 100% with his take, but I don't think he's talking out of his ass.
posted by anazgnos at 7:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
Yeah, it's really weird when people say this. From what I know about his working methods he:
a) records anyone who will pay him, regardless of style or genre
b) records using high-end vintage analog gear with a high level of technical skill, in a way that emphasizes transparency with minimal interference with the performance or post-production fussing
c) asserts no editorial or creative sway over the bands he records unless directly asked to do so by the band, and even then only reluctantly
If that's a formula it's a pretty good one.
As a pretty big Sonic Youth fan, I can't say this interview got my hackles up in any way. I don't agree 100% with his take, but I don't think he's talking out of his ass.
posted by anazgnos at 7:31 PM on October 6, 2010 [5 favorites]
I think I had a psychic orgasm with David Thomas at a Pere Ubu concert in 2003, but I felt sort of dirty and scared afterwards. Come to think of it, that's another band that still rocked a good 27 years after their inception. **
posted by koeselitz at 7:34 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 7:34 PM on October 6, 2010
Given that Albini hates even the stuff he likes, I was surprised and pleased to read him saying such nice things about Peelie.
(But then, everybody said nice things about Peelie....)
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 7:51 PM on October 6, 2010
(But then, everybody said nice things about Peelie....)
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 7:51 PM on October 6, 2010
As a pretty big Sonic Youth fan, I can't say this interview got my hackles up in any way. I don't agree 100% with his take, but I don't think he's talking out of his ass.
Yeah, that (besides, "I don't rate movies as an art form" is way more controversial). I especially liked this comment from the thread Pain In Full linked above; Albini talks a bit about his band-focused recording philosophy, then ends like so:
I behave this way not to wear a hair shirt, but because it makes me comfortable. I prefer to be affordable to everyone, so even the best bands (who are not often the wealthiest) can have a good experience in the studio. I feel a sense of accomplishment when a band is happy with a record and we finish on time and under budget. I know they got their money's worth out of me, the studio and everything else under my responsibility.
If somebody in the corporate-human culture war has a beef with me, all that detail gets glossed over and the fact that I worked on some records released by major labels becomes a false data point in my presumed hypocrisy. Enough of those points and a journalist or irritated musician gets to draw a curve and say "look, he's full of shit."
I'll happily go to the mat with anybody about what I actually do and say, and the reasoning behind it. Any time. I can go on all night. But when the bulk of the chatter is a nonsensical argument based on presumed reasoning, presented with an agenda in mind, I simply don't have the energy to weigh in and straighten people out. It would take all my time.
Never met the guy but have always respected what I read from him, not because of what he's accomplished in the past but because whatever he says always seems more thoughtful than what most other folks are saying on that subject. Hard to imagine anyone being more articulate than Albini was off the top of his head when some guy "just walked up to me while I was sitting on the couch typing an email and said, 'can I ask you a few questions?'"
posted by mediareport at 7:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah, that (besides, "I don't rate movies as an art form" is way more controversial). I especially liked this comment from the thread Pain In Full linked above; Albini talks a bit about his band-focused recording philosophy, then ends like so:
I behave this way not to wear a hair shirt, but because it makes me comfortable. I prefer to be affordable to everyone, so even the best bands (who are not often the wealthiest) can have a good experience in the studio. I feel a sense of accomplishment when a band is happy with a record and we finish on time and under budget. I know they got their money's worth out of me, the studio and everything else under my responsibility.
If somebody in the corporate-human culture war has a beef with me, all that detail gets glossed over and the fact that I worked on some records released by major labels becomes a false data point in my presumed hypocrisy. Enough of those points and a journalist or irritated musician gets to draw a curve and say "look, he's full of shit."
I'll happily go to the mat with anybody about what I actually do and say, and the reasoning behind it. Any time. I can go on all night. But when the bulk of the chatter is a nonsensical argument based on presumed reasoning, presented with an agenda in mind, I simply don't have the energy to weigh in and straighten people out. It would take all my time.
Never met the guy but have always respected what I read from him, not because of what he's accomplished in the past but because whatever he says always seems more thoughtful than what most other folks are saying on that subject. Hard to imagine anyone being more articulate than Albini was off the top of his head when some guy "just walked up to me while I was sitting on the couch typing an email and said, 'can I ask you a few questions?'"
posted by mediareport at 7:52 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Paid In Full, sorry
posted by mediareport at 7:52 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by mediareport at 7:52 PM on October 6, 2010
Yay, Seamonsters! It's easily my favourite WP album* (the earlier stuff is too jingly-jangly for my tastes, but if that's your thing I can see why it might not be to your liking) and I love the job Albini did on it. The one-two punch of "Lovenest" and "Corduroy" (I even love the minute or so of droning feedback between the two) is eight and a half minutes of heaven.
* although everything from Bizarro to Mini will always have a place on my stereo
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:55 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
* although everything from Bizarro to Mini will always have a place on my stereo
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:55 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
God, what is it about Atomizer? I've now spent decades trying to wrap my head around it. When I first heard Big Black, as a teenager in a hick town (which, by the grace of god, would occasionally receive a community college radio station), it got under my skin. Realizing you could use rock and roll instruments to create something so raw, so new, so far out there, so fucking art. Dumbasses like me with no art appreciation classes, and hell, no guitar lessons, could make electric noise out of pure emotion. As a bored suburban kid whose parents knew shit about beauty and culture, it awakened a sensibility in me that remains today, probably influencing all kinds of decisions in my life. At the time I thought I was the only person in the world who knew about this music, but some 25 years later, it's heartening whenever I hear Kerosene, at clubs, the shops I go to, the parties I'm at, and now linked here -- it's like a cairn on a trail, letting me know that I've made all the right decisions and my life is still on track.
Yeah, Albini sounds opinionated and I don't agree with all those opinions, but whatever, no one made him the king of indie rock. He's just a guy.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:57 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yeah, Albini sounds opinionated and I don't agree with all those opinions, but whatever, no one made him the king of indie rock. He's just a guy.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:57 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Yay, Seamonsters! It's easily my favourite WP album
To tell the truth, I actually like Seamonsters a lot - it'd probably be on my desert island list for any list beyond about 30 discs or so.
The opening triad of Dalliance - Dare - Suck was not bettered in the power pop guitar stakes until PJ Harvey hit us with Big Exit - Good Fortune - A Place Like Home about a decade later.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:12 PM on October 6, 2010
To tell the truth, I actually like Seamonsters a lot - it'd probably be on my desert island list for any list beyond about 30 discs or so.
The opening triad of Dalliance - Dare - Suck was not bettered in the power pop guitar stakes until PJ Harvey hit us with Big Exit - Good Fortune - A Place Like Home about a decade later.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:12 PM on October 6, 2010
Bands bands. Bands bands it's a good time to be in a band, I know of bands doing this and that, bands this bands that. It's as if he's never heard of singers, or solo performers. Is he 21 years old and living in 1987?
posted by raysmj at 8:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by raysmj at 8:13 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
*breaks from dancing to Self-Obsessed and Sexee long enough to catch Jimmy Havok's crack pipe, takes a hit and resumes dancing*
posted by mannequito at 8:17 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by mannequito at 8:17 PM on October 6, 2010
No no no, I love the way Seamonsters sounds, but it's weird. For one thing, it's recorded really low, it's kind of tinny, but the kicker is, the vocals only come out of one side of your stereo. If, say, your right speaker has conked out in your 87 Toyota and you stick in Seamonsters, all you hear of Dalliance is 'da da, da da da da' over and over. And a faint echo of a voice coming, I guess from the other side of Steve Albini's basement.
Great album, a tour de force of amazing songwriting, but I can't help but wondering if it couldn't have sounded, maybe, a tiny bit better.
posted by Flashman at 8:18 PM on October 6, 2010
Great album, a tour de force of amazing songwriting, but I can't help but wondering if it couldn't have sounded, maybe, a tiny bit better.
posted by Flashman at 8:18 PM on October 6, 2010
Albino ruined, absolutely ruined "Bizarro," by the motherfucking Wedding Present. Really he had no business near that band at that point. I SAW THEM PLAY THAT ALBUM LIVE AT CBGB IN 1991. It was wonderful. So many overtones between all the strummed guitars, albino buried with distortion and a "Indie rock" sound. Really a disaster. Wedding Present were never Pavement Or the Pixies. Truly sad that. Gedge fucked it so badly. I KNOW WHAT BIZARRO SHOULD'VE SOUNDED LIKE. And I weeped. I weeped. I HAD A psychic orgasm with every member of the So, except for Gedge. That cunt.
*I think the bartender wants me to leave now. *
posted by Skygazer at 8:19 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
*I think the bartender wants me to leave now. *
posted by Skygazer at 8:19 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Miles Davis was one of the utmost freakin' musicians on this wretched planet, not so much because he was a virtuoso musician who could cram a shitload of notes into some randomly alloted space of time but because he chose instead to sit back and let others help to construct his vision not for but with him, which they were apparently happy to do. He got out of the way when it was appropriate for him to get out of the way and he provided punctuation wherever and whenever it was needed, and he did this despite the fact that he was (allegedly) a misogynistic ass on many an occasions.
Transcending your limitations can be a sublime thing, and I think Miles managed to do that from time to time. I respect him for that. I speak from the authority of having been stoned the fuck out of my ever-loving gourd when I first encountered some of his early 70s work.
As for SY, I liked much of the early stuff. All this shit has its time, then fades. Albini's a strong personality, much like Miles was. My feeling is: don't make too much more of any of this shit than what it is - something ephemeral in nature, to be appreciated before it's gone.
Isn't that kind of the whole point?
posted by metagnathous at 8:57 PM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
Transcending your limitations can be a sublime thing, and I think Miles managed to do that from time to time. I respect him for that. I speak from the authority of having been stoned the fuck out of my ever-loving gourd when I first encountered some of his early 70s work.
As for SY, I liked much of the early stuff. All this shit has its time, then fades. Albini's a strong personality, much like Miles was. My feeling is: don't make too much more of any of this shit than what it is - something ephemeral in nature, to be appreciated before it's gone.
Isn't that kind of the whole point?
posted by metagnathous at 8:57 PM on October 6, 2010 [7 favorites]
It's as if he's never heard of singers, or solo performers.
You have a point, he does talk about bands a lot—but now or in 1987, even a lone singer or solo performer will usually have backing in the studio and/or onstage. Things haven't changed that much.
posted by limeonaire at 8:57 PM on October 6, 2010
You have a point, he does talk about bands a lot—but now or in 1987, even a lone singer or solo performer will usually have backing in the studio and/or onstage. Things haven't changed that much.
posted by limeonaire at 8:57 PM on October 6, 2010
Also: Shit.
posted by metagnathous at 8:59 PM on October 6, 2010
posted by metagnathous at 8:59 PM on October 6, 2010
... if metafilter was poetry, this thread would end on that last comment.
posted by philip-random at 9:36 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by philip-random at 9:36 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
You have a point, he does talk about bands a lot—but now or in 1987, even a lone singer or solo performer will usually have backing in the studio and/or onstage.
Well, I notice you carefully said "and/or" because there actually are plenty of people who do solo concerts -- literally solo in the sense of being alone on the stage. Regina Spektor, Tori Amos, etc.
Anyway, even for artists who have other musicians backing them up, is that really relevant to Albini's discussion? He's talking about the process of bands promoting themselves together, making money together, etc. Regina Spektor is promoting herself; she's not in some joint venture with whatever musicians happened to play guitar, bass, drums, violin, and cello on her albums.
posted by John Cohen at 9:54 PM on October 6, 2010
Well, I notice you carefully said "and/or" because there actually are plenty of people who do solo concerts -- literally solo in the sense of being alone on the stage. Regina Spektor, Tori Amos, etc.
Anyway, even for artists who have other musicians backing them up, is that really relevant to Albini's discussion? He's talking about the process of bands promoting themselves together, making money together, etc. Regina Spektor is promoting herself; she's not in some joint venture with whatever musicians happened to play guitar, bass, drums, violin, and cello on her albums.
posted by John Cohen at 9:54 PM on October 6, 2010
Oh, Steve.
For Decades,
You Paraded Around As a Crazy Bitch.
Wretchedness - Your Lucky Charm...
Didn't we deserve a look at you the way you really are?
posted by brevator at 10:06 PM on October 6, 2010
For Decades,
You Paraded Around As a Crazy Bitch.
Wretchedness - Your Lucky Charm...
Didn't we deserve a look at you the way you really are?
posted by brevator at 10:06 PM on October 6, 2010
koeselitz writes: "Miles Davis was an untalented hack"
My god you are a fucking idiot when it comes to music.
posted by bardic at 10:15 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
My god you are a fucking idiot when it comes to music.
posted by bardic at 10:15 PM on October 6, 2010 [1 favorite]
The suggestion that Miles Davis cannot play is the most preposterous I have read, oh, this week. Asshole, I grant you, prodigious asshole, but a seminal musician who hired great talent and ceaselessly reinvented his context. Sure, he didn't have the chops some did, but he had an ear for the hip, several amazing bands, and nobody could play a ballad like him. I can name any number of other musicians who'd agree with me, probably including most if not all of the musicians who chose to play with him.
Because all of this is, of course, the merest platitude.
posted by Wolof at 10:18 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
Because all of this is, of course, the merest platitude.
posted by Wolof at 10:18 PM on October 6, 2010 [2 favorites]
davejay: "CAPS DON'T MAKE YOU SMART.
WHAT ABOUT SMALLCAPS"
No, that just makes you Death.
posted by ShawnStruck at 3:46 AM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
WHAT ABOUT SMALLCAPS"
No, that just makes you Death.
posted by ShawnStruck at 3:46 AM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I guess they know I'm not no company man.
posted by box at 5:16 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 5:16 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Bardic: koeselitz writes: "Miles Davis was an untalented hack"
My god you are a fucking idiot when it comes to music.
To be fair, he was right about Bryan Adams.
posted by Infinite Jest at 5:31 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
My god you are a fucking idiot when it comes to music.
To be fair, he was right about Bryan Adams.
posted by Infinite Jest at 5:31 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
I love Steve Albini produced records.
Damn he's good. And he's not really formulaic.
His sound has changed over the years. His echoey cement basement sound has given way to a more up subdued clear, mic right ontop of the speaker/mouth/drum kind of sound. Really great sounding recordings.
See Breeders Title TK, and Electrelanes amazing records. (Okay, electrelane must have asked for a bit of "vintage Albini" on that snare. But damn he makes them sound perfect.)
posted by JBennett at 9:00 AM on October 7, 2010
Damn he's good. And he's not really formulaic.
His sound has changed over the years. His echoey cement basement sound has given way to a more up subdued clear, mic right ontop of the speaker/mouth/drum kind of sound. Really great sounding recordings.
See Breeders Title TK, and Electrelanes amazing records. (Okay, electrelane must have asked for a bit of "vintage Albini" on that snare. But damn he makes them sound perfect.)
posted by JBennett at 9:00 AM on October 7, 2010
It's as if he's never heard of singers, or solo performers.
He recorded the second Joanna Newsom album, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 10:51 AM on October 7, 2010
He recorded the second Joanna Newsom album, right?
posted by mr_roboto at 10:51 AM on October 7, 2010
On a related note, this article indirectly made me stop reading the the Onion's AV Club. Last week their "Newswire" writer Sean O'Neal was being snotty about David Simon receiving a MacArthur Fellowship, even though it's a good bet that no 5 intelligent people talking about television anywhere would ever be able to agree on a single show that is better than The Wire, and this week he's going out of his way to make Albini sound like an enraged, hypocritical version of Clint Eastwood's character in "Gran Torino", all shaking his fist at Sonic Youth and the mainstream music industry to stay off his lawn. (It's like Steve fucked his girlfriend once, then he fucked all his friends' girlfriends, and now they hate him.) Anyway, this South-Park-meets-TMZ business of maligning people who have made enormous contributions to culture and who champion principled, honorable behavior is putrid, so I'm done with that joint. The AV Club was pretty much coasting on my goodwill towards The Onion for a long time, frankly.
posted by millions at 10:57 AM on October 7, 2010
posted by millions at 10:57 AM on October 7, 2010
Bands bands. Bands bands it's a good time to be in a band, I know of bands doing this and that, bands this bands that. It's as if he's never heard of singers, or solo performers. Is he 21 years old and living in 1987?
It's funny, when you talk to somebody who's into rock music, you end up hearing a lot of talk about rock bands. As far as the belief that interest in rock music is confined to 21 year olds living in 1987, good luck with that.
posted by anazgnos at 11:08 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
It's funny, when you talk to somebody who's into rock music, you end up hearing a lot of talk about rock bands. As far as the belief that interest in rock music is confined to 21 year olds living in 1987, good luck with that.
posted by anazgnos at 11:08 AM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm listening to Tar's Jackson right now!
Wow! Tar! I haven't thought of them in years! Thanks!
I first heard them when I went to see Arcwelder, and they opened. Or was it the other way around? Anyway, listened to Roundhouse like a mf'er for years.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2010
Wow! Tar! I haven't thought of them in years! Thanks!
I first heard them when I went to see Arcwelder, and they opened. Or was it the other way around? Anyway, listened to Roundhouse like a mf'er for years.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:12 AM on October 7, 2010
me: “Miles Davis was an untalented hack”
bardic: “My god you are a fucking idiot when it comes to music.”
No, I just like jazz. And if you can point me toward a single solo where Miles plays anything even remotely approaching the stuff on Study In Brown, for example, my hat is off. But I've been through all of it, and invariably Miles hides from the daunting task of actually constructing a solo by cramming that stupid mute into his horn or hiring an extra guitarist or something like that. He's scared to death of actual musical construction, and he's obsessed with being hip and cool and capturing the ear of the kids. That's not what music is about.
Wolof: “The suggestion that Miles Davis cannot play is the most preposterous I have read, oh, this week. Asshole, I grant you, prodigious asshole, but a seminal musician who hired great talent and ceaselessly reinvented his context. Sure, he didn't have the chops some did, but he had an ear for the hip, several amazing bands, and nobody could play a ballad like him. I can name any number of other musicians who'd agree with me, probably including most if not all of the musicians who chose to play with him. Because all of this is, of course, the merest platitude.”
Lots and lots of people could play a ballad like he could. I have a hard time naming a working trumpet player from the time who wasn't better at this than he was. Good music is not about having 'an ear for the hip.' People toss around stuff like 'seminal musician,' but it means almost nothing, because they're not actually talking about Miles Davis' musicianship. Seriously, what does 'seminal musician' refer to? His inability to move beyond the basic scale of the tune? His apparent lack of a conception of the parts of the scale? His bad embouchure, his tinny tone, his overuse of the mute? What?
It's not that I love to hate on a musician – it's that you can't walk around a corner without hearing about Miles Davis, particularly in rock circles. People who would never dream of picking up a Sonny Rollins disc will sit here and tell you all day long that Bitches Brew is the most innovative, most unique sound ever created. And it's obnoxious – because it means that piles and piles and piles of really, really good music will never get heard. People are too busy gushing over a guy who wasn't even remotely as talented or as soulful or as great as the legions of musicians they ignore. John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman – a whole bunch of thoughtful people were blazing trails in free jazz years before it was a glimmer in Miles' eye. But not only has he ridden his luck and good fortune to misbegotten accolades about his musicianship; he's also gotten tons and tons of credit for doing things that other people did.
Sometimes you just want to change the channel. So I'm trying here, by saying this: for the love of god, please, please try listening to something other than Miles Davis. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised.
posted by koeselitz at 11:56 AM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
bardic: “My god you are a fucking idiot when it comes to music.”
No, I just like jazz. And if you can point me toward a single solo where Miles plays anything even remotely approaching the stuff on Study In Brown, for example, my hat is off. But I've been through all of it, and invariably Miles hides from the daunting task of actually constructing a solo by cramming that stupid mute into his horn or hiring an extra guitarist or something like that. He's scared to death of actual musical construction, and he's obsessed with being hip and cool and capturing the ear of the kids. That's not what music is about.
Wolof: “The suggestion that Miles Davis cannot play is the most preposterous I have read, oh, this week. Asshole, I grant you, prodigious asshole, but a seminal musician who hired great talent and ceaselessly reinvented his context. Sure, he didn't have the chops some did, but he had an ear for the hip, several amazing bands, and nobody could play a ballad like him. I can name any number of other musicians who'd agree with me, probably including most if not all of the musicians who chose to play with him. Because all of this is, of course, the merest platitude.”
Lots and lots of people could play a ballad like he could. I have a hard time naming a working trumpet player from the time who wasn't better at this than he was. Good music is not about having 'an ear for the hip.' People toss around stuff like 'seminal musician,' but it means almost nothing, because they're not actually talking about Miles Davis' musicianship. Seriously, what does 'seminal musician' refer to? His inability to move beyond the basic scale of the tune? His apparent lack of a conception of the parts of the scale? His bad embouchure, his tinny tone, his overuse of the mute? What?
It's not that I love to hate on a musician – it's that you can't walk around a corner without hearing about Miles Davis, particularly in rock circles. People who would never dream of picking up a Sonny Rollins disc will sit here and tell you all day long that Bitches Brew is the most innovative, most unique sound ever created. And it's obnoxious – because it means that piles and piles and piles of really, really good music will never get heard. People are too busy gushing over a guy who wasn't even remotely as talented or as soulful or as great as the legions of musicians they ignore. John Coltrane, Sun Ra, Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman – a whole bunch of thoughtful people were blazing trails in free jazz years before it was a glimmer in Miles' eye. But not only has he ridden his luck and good fortune to misbegotten accolades about his musicianship; he's also gotten tons and tons of credit for doing things that other people did.
Sometimes you just want to change the channel. So I'm trying here, by saying this: for the love of god, please, please try listening to something other than Miles Davis. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised.
posted by koeselitz at 11:56 AM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Also, JBennet: Title TK is one of my favorite things ever. Awesome stuff. Didn't realize Albini produced that; wow, one more win in his column, I guess.
posted by koeselitz at 11:59 AM on October 7, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 11:59 AM on October 7, 2010
So was that all about Miles Davis' technical proficiency?
By that token, I'd be following the advice of some canuck I met years ago, that Rush & Ingwie Malmsteen are the pinnacle of rock music, because they're the greatest technical players in the history of mankind.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:28 PM on October 7, 2010
By that token, I'd be following the advice of some canuck I met years ago, that Rush & Ingwie Malmsteen are the pinnacle of rock music, because they're the greatest technical players in the history of mankind.
posted by UbuRoivas at 12:28 PM on October 7, 2010
"It's not that I love to hate on a musician"
You said Miles Davis was a hack.
You are a fucking moron and know nothing about music.
Good music, at least.
posted by bardic at 1:02 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
You said Miles Davis was a hack.
You are a fucking moron and know nothing about music.
Good music, at least.
posted by bardic at 1:02 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
And I have a strange feeling you're a Pat Methny fan.
posted by bardic at 1:08 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by bardic at 1:08 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
People who would never dream of picking up a Sonny Rollins disc will sit here and tell you all day long that Bitches Brew is the most innovative, most unique sound ever created. And it's obnoxious –
Well, I've heard Rollins and I've heard Miles and I don't see why I should have to choose one or the other. As for Bitches Brew and the phase of deep exploratory sonics that it set rolling, I think there is, strangely, a point to made that the worst part of it all is Miles. That is, the horn playing is certainly my least favorite part. Give me all the other textures, deep and strange and exotic -- but spare me horn noodling.
Of course, Miles is the guy that let it happen, that gathered the roster of players together and set them free to go where they did, so I guess we're stuck with thim.
That said, this is a pretty amazing track anyway you look at it. "Go Ahead John" from Big Fun which was comprised mostly of Bitches Brew out-takes, I'm pretty sure.
posted by philip-random at 1:10 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, I've heard Rollins and I've heard Miles and I don't see why I should have to choose one or the other. As for Bitches Brew and the phase of deep exploratory sonics that it set rolling, I think there is, strangely, a point to made that the worst part of it all is Miles. That is, the horn playing is certainly my least favorite part. Give me all the other textures, deep and strange and exotic -- but spare me horn noodling.
Of course, Miles is the guy that let it happen, that gathered the roster of players together and set them free to go where they did, so I guess we're stuck with thim.
That said, this is a pretty amazing track anyway you look at it. "Go Ahead John" from Big Fun which was comprised mostly of Bitches Brew out-takes, I'm pretty sure.
posted by philip-random at 1:10 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
*digs out Panthalassa: Miles Davis remixed by Bill Laswell*
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:18 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:18 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
"So I'm trying here, by saying this: for the love of god, please, please try listening to something other than Miles Davis. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised."
This is why you're so annoying as a commenter. You come out with a completely musically illiterate, bullshit statement re: Miles Davis sux. Then you turn tail and try to cover your track with "Try Sonny Rollins."
Anybody's who's into jazz appreciates both men, for different reasons. Because they were doing very different (and amazing) things.
And you hoist yourself on the petard of the greatness of 80's jazz.
Dear God.
I eagerly await your defense of Kenny G's "misunderstood" albums.
posted by bardic at 1:21 PM on October 7, 2010
This is why you're so annoying as a commenter. You come out with a completely musically illiterate, bullshit statement re: Miles Davis sux. Then you turn tail and try to cover your track with "Try Sonny Rollins."
Anybody's who's into jazz appreciates both men, for different reasons. Because they were doing very different (and amazing) things.
And you hoist yourself on the petard of the greatness of 80's jazz.
Dear God.
I eagerly await your defense of Kenny G's "misunderstood" albums.
posted by bardic at 1:21 PM on October 7, 2010
Hey, I have a great idea: let's attack each other because we don't have the exact same musical taste.
posted by John Cohen at 1:24 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by John Cohen at 1:24 PM on October 7, 2010
No, we wouldn't want to set a precedent.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:26 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
bardic: “You are a fucking moron and know nothing about music. Good music, at least. And I have a strange feeling you're a Pat Methny fan.”
I'm flattered that you'd like to talk about me so much, but I thought we could talk about music. I'm not a fan of Pat Metheny at all, but at least I could tell you what it is about his music I don't really like.
posted by koeselitz at 1:30 PM on October 7, 2010
I'm flattered that you'd like to talk about me so much, but I thought we could talk about music. I'm not a fan of Pat Metheny at all, but at least I could tell you what it is about his music I don't really like.
posted by koeselitz at 1:30 PM on October 7, 2010
(it's a bit too pat)
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:33 PM on October 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
bardic: “And you hoist yourself on the petard of the greatness of 80's jazz. Dear God. I eagerly await your defense of Kenny G's "misunderstood" albums.”
What the – so you're going to cut me for that comment? Fucking hell! Have you even listened to any of the fucking things I recommended in that comment?
Look, my whole point there was that '80s jazz' isn't just Kenny G and Pat Metheny smooth crap. But you buy the standard line about it hook, line and sinker! – you really believe that it's not possible for anybody to have made an interesting, engaging, vivid, thoughtful, lively jazz record in the 1980s!
Seriously, before you try to drag me through the dirt, at least pay attention to what I'm saying. And I honestly don't mind if you hate on me; but there were thousands of really great musicians working in jazz in the 1980s, and writing them all off as smooth-jazz lame-os is just wrong.
“This is why you're so annoying as a commenter. You come out with a completely musically illiterate, bullshit statement re: Miles Davis sux. Then you turn tail and try to cover your track with ‘Try Sonny Rollins.’”
I'm not covering any tracks whatsoever. I know a lot of working jazz musicians, and every single one of them resents the annoying amount of play that Miles Davis gets. Every time they appear, it's 'oh, can you play this Miles Davis song?' and 'oh, what's it like to play the same instrument as Miles Davis?' and all this bullshit. It's fucking tiresome. Please, tell me where I'm wrong – but it'd be nice if you actually talked about music to do it. Like I said, I don't mind insults, they're par for the course as far as internet discourse goes; but we can't really talk about anything if you haven't got anything to say beyond "you're a moron."
posted by koeselitz at 1:38 PM on October 7, 2010
What the – so you're going to cut me for that comment? Fucking hell! Have you even listened to any of the fucking things I recommended in that comment?
Look, my whole point there was that '80s jazz' isn't just Kenny G and Pat Metheny smooth crap. But you buy the standard line about it hook, line and sinker! – you really believe that it's not possible for anybody to have made an interesting, engaging, vivid, thoughtful, lively jazz record in the 1980s!
Seriously, before you try to drag me through the dirt, at least pay attention to what I'm saying. And I honestly don't mind if you hate on me; but there were thousands of really great musicians working in jazz in the 1980s, and writing them all off as smooth-jazz lame-os is just wrong.
“This is why you're so annoying as a commenter. You come out with a completely musically illiterate, bullshit statement re: Miles Davis sux. Then you turn tail and try to cover your track with ‘Try Sonny Rollins.’”
I'm not covering any tracks whatsoever. I know a lot of working jazz musicians, and every single one of them resents the annoying amount of play that Miles Davis gets. Every time they appear, it's 'oh, can you play this Miles Davis song?' and 'oh, what's it like to play the same instrument as Miles Davis?' and all this bullshit. It's fucking tiresome. Please, tell me where I'm wrong – but it'd be nice if you actually talked about music to do it. Like I said, I don't mind insults, they're par for the course as far as internet discourse goes; but we can't really talk about anything if you haven't got anything to say beyond "you're a moron."
posted by koeselitz at 1:38 PM on October 7, 2010
Yeah, I've enjoyed the conversation about MD quite a bit sans the "Your're a fucking moron" bit.
posted by josher71 at 1:39 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by josher71 at 1:39 PM on October 7, 2010
I like Pat Metheny on that Steve Reich album, and when he's calling Kenny G a corpse-rapist or whatever.
posted by box at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 1:48 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
"Have you even listened to any of the fucking things I recommended in that comment?"
Yes.
"Seriously, before you try to drag me through the dirt, at least pay attention to what I'm saying."
You said Miles Davis is a "hack." A complete asshole? Yes. Possibly over-rated? Yes, arguably I'd agree. I wish he'd been a better editor of his own work in the last two decades of his opus. Cocaine is a helluva drug.
But you said it, not me. You have a really poor grasp of music, simple as that. And jazz in particular.
"Please, tell me where I'm wrong"
You called him a "worthless hack." One of the true greats of jazz, and music in general. Of American culture in general.
You are stupid. Because we all know the anything the Yellowjackets ever did totally killed Filles de Kilimanjaro.
Ugh. You pain me.
posted by bardic at 1:53 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Yes.
"Seriously, before you try to drag me through the dirt, at least pay attention to what I'm saying."
You said Miles Davis is a "hack." A complete asshole? Yes. Possibly over-rated? Yes, arguably I'd agree. I wish he'd been a better editor of his own work in the last two decades of his opus. Cocaine is a helluva drug.
But you said it, not me. You have a really poor grasp of music, simple as that. And jazz in particular.
"Please, tell me where I'm wrong"
You called him a "worthless hack." One of the true greats of jazz, and music in general. Of American culture in general.
You are stupid. Because we all know the anything the Yellowjackets ever did totally killed Filles de Kilimanjaro.
Ugh. You pain me.
posted by bardic at 1:53 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Wait, wait, is there a comment where koeselitz gives a bunch of '80s jazz recommendations? I totally want to see that.
(By the way, I feel like I've gotten to know koeselitz pretty well, around here, over the years, and I can say with confidence that he's not a moron. I don't think Miles sucks, but I do think he's overrated, in that Beatles/Shakespeare way that it's possible to be very, very good and still be overrated.)
posted by box at 1:55 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
(By the way, I feel like I've gotten to know koeselitz pretty well, around here, over the years, and I can say with confidence that he's not a moron. I don't think Miles sucks, but I do think he's overrated, in that Beatles/Shakespeare way that it's possible to be very, very good and still be overrated.)
posted by box at 1:55 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
On the Corner is an awesome raucous album
posted by rosswald at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rosswald at 2:03 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
But "On The Corner" was made by a worthless hack. Didn't you hear?
posted by bardic at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by bardic at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2010
you can't walk around a corner without hearing about Miles Davis, particularly in rock circles. People who would never dream of picking up a Sonny Rollins disc will sit here and tell you all day long that Bitches Brew is the most innovative, most unique sound ever created.
I read this thinking for sure that I was the very the definition of the dilettante rock fan who dabbles in jazz and owns a bunch of Miles Davis records. But I have a bunch of records by Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, and Ornette Coleman too, so I guess I'm in the clear.
posted by anazgnos at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I read this thinking for sure that I was the very the definition of the dilettante rock fan who dabbles in jazz and owns a bunch of Miles Davis records. But I have a bunch of records by Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, and Ornette Coleman too, so I guess I'm in the clear.
posted by anazgnos at 2:05 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I am loving that a Steve Albini thread has degenerated into something other than an 'Albini is an asshole' argument.
Delicious plate of unexpected beans.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:07 PM on October 7, 2010
Delicious plate of unexpected beans.
posted by lumpenprole at 2:07 PM on October 7, 2010
My favorite thing in the 90s indie music gold rush was Virgin Records giving Royal Trux a million dollars to go back to Drag City.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 2:12 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 2:12 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Albini fucked my sister. While listening to Doo-Bop.
And then he fucked all your friends sisters.... now they hate Pat Metheny
posted by lumpenprole at 2:13 PM on October 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
And then he fucked all your friends sisters.... now they hate Pat Metheny
posted by lumpenprole at 2:13 PM on October 7, 2010 [4 favorites]
box: My favorite of your comment means "references gotten and endorsed."
posted by John Cohen at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by John Cohen at 2:18 PM on October 7, 2010
(80s jazz? Well, I mentioned Dave McKenna, who's a pianistic hero of mine; there are times when I'm convinced the guy's got three hands, as evinced in this clip of him. That's from the early 80s; he was in his prime then, and all of his albums from the time are great, especially Left-Handed Complement. Unfortunately it seems that there aren't many good clips on youtube of the great Jaki Byard from the 80s, although he was also hitting a stride on classics like Improvisations, and you can see some of his remarkable proficiency and range in this interview. I also mentioned Keith Jarrett's Standards series – some great records he put out on ECM, and there were some fantastic performances of them, too; you can see the band in top form, although the sound is way too low, in this clip. I said Branford Marsalis' Scenes In The City was a masterpiece, and I meant it; incredible tunes – some people think the introductory voiceover is hokey, but I don't, and even if you do, it's hard to deny that there's some fantastic music in there, particularly if you're into the [ahem] improvisatory freedom of Miles and Trane. McCoy Tyner was scaling the last peaks of his career, especially with that awesome Double Trios album.)
posted by koeselitz at 2:19 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by koeselitz at 2:19 PM on October 7, 2010
anazgnos: “I read this thinking for sure that I was the very the definition of the dilettante rock fan who dabbles in jazz and owns a bunch of Miles Davis records. But I have a bunch of records by Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, Sun Ra, and Ornette Coleman too, so I guess I'm in the clear.”
Eric Dolphy. You forgot Eric Dolphy. Go buy a copy of Out To Lunch! and THEN YOU WILL HAVE ESCAPED THE WRATH OF KOESELITZ MY CHILD
posted by koeselitz at 2:26 PM on October 7, 2010
Eric Dolphy. You forgot Eric Dolphy. Go buy a copy of Out To Lunch! and THEN YOU WILL HAVE ESCAPED THE WRATH OF KOESELITZ MY CHILD
posted by koeselitz at 2:26 PM on October 7, 2010
I hate almost all jazz. And reggae. What do I win?
posted by Skot at 2:44 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Skot at 2:44 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
You win the best techno/house mix ever created.
posted by koeselitz at 2:58 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 2:58 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
And I have a strange feeling you're a Pat Methny fan
Oh, come on. Now we're hating on Pat Metheny? (Or whatever you tried to type?) Seriously?
For the record, I like Pat Metheny.
posted by limeonaire at 3:47 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oh, come on. Now we're hating on Pat Metheny? (Or whatever you tried to type?) Seriously?
For the record, I like Pat Metheny.
posted by limeonaire at 3:47 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
I think "over rated record producers" [are] repulsive. The whole idea that someone else can make [music] that is supposed to be in style and make other people [sound] good is ridiculous. It sickens me to think that there is an industry that plays to the low self-esteem of the general public. I would like the [music] industry to collapse. I think it plays to the most superficial, most insecure parts of human nature. I hope [Albini] as a "over rated record producer" fails. I hope that all of these people who make a living by [making music sound great] are eventually made destitute or forced to do something of substance. At least [satire] has a function.
-just throwin' that out there.
Personally, he comes off as a self absorbed snob and an ass.
posted by tzelig at 4:13 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
-just throwin' that out there.
Personally, he comes off as a self absorbed snob and an ass.
posted by tzelig at 4:13 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Oddly, I live in a Universe in which it is permitted to dig Miles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Eric Dolphy, Ornette Coleman, and even some other people! Sometimes in the same afternoon!
Don't imagine you're schooling anyone here. You'd be dead wrong, just as you are about Miles.
posted by Wolof at 4:43 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Don't imagine you're schooling anyone here. You'd be dead wrong, just as you are about Miles.
posted by Wolof at 4:43 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
So we've gone from "indier than thou" to "jazzier than thou"? Awesome.
posted by dersins at 4:49 PM on October 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by dersins at 4:49 PM on October 7, 2010 [3 favorites]
(just wait for more classical than thou)
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:00 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:00 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Actually, the classical music thread the other day was impressively civil.
posted by John Cohen at 5:10 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by John Cohen at 5:10 PM on October 7, 2010
"Rock and roll, why don't you just throw your whole life away and become a JAZZ musician?" -Homer Simpson (as close as I can remember)
posted by Max Power at 5:24 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by Max Power at 5:24 PM on October 7, 2010
Wolof: “Don't imagine you're schooling anyone here. You'd be dead wrong, just as you are about Miles.”
Naw, I'm not schooling anybody. I'm as much a moron as bardic claims; I'll even cop to it. I just don't like Miles Davis, but that doesn't stop anybody else from liking him, and who knows - maybe someday I'll realize I'm wrong. Today, I feel pretty strongly about it, but those are just feelings; I'm not wise yet, not by a long shot.
(Besides, my favorite musician is Sidney Bechet, so what the hell do I know?)
posted by koeselitz at 5:49 PM on October 7, 2010
Naw, I'm not schooling anybody. I'm as much a moron as bardic claims; I'll even cop to it. I just don't like Miles Davis, but that doesn't stop anybody else from liking him, and who knows - maybe someday I'll realize I'm wrong. Today, I feel pretty strongly about it, but those are just feelings; I'm not wise yet, not by a long shot.
(Besides, my favorite musician is Sidney Bechet, so what the hell do I know?)
posted by koeselitz at 5:49 PM on October 7, 2010
So we've gone from "indier than thou" to "jazzier than thou"? Awesome.
Just a factor of growing older, dersins.
For those keeping score, Steve Albini and Sonic Youth range in age from 48 to 57.
(Kim Gordon is just a year younger than my mom!)
posted by Sys Rq at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Just a factor of growing older, dersins.
For those keeping score, Steve Albini and Sonic Youth range in age from 48 to 57.
(Kim Gordon is just a year younger than my mom!)
posted by Sys Rq at 5:50 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sometimes I try to figure out why jazz sucks so much, but in the end all I can come up with is that it really really sucks. It has all these things I really like, like improvisation, intellectualism, craft, rethinking the old into new forms...and yet it really really sucks. Really.
Maybe it's because old people like it.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 5:53 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's because old people like it.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 5:53 PM on October 7, 2010 [2 favorites]
The Bad Plus, "Theme From Chariots of Fire"
posted by koeselitz at 6:00 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by koeselitz at 6:00 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
and yet [jazz] really really sucks. Really.
You might be listening to the wrong stuff.
Personally, I don't get a lot of mileage out of anything too upbeat, toe-tapping and 'jazzy', so although I have a handful of 'classic' stuff like Miles Davis & John Coltrane, I far prefer it when it's more minimalist & moody - some of the music on the ECM label, for example, as well as Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti, and especially The Necks, who I think blow just about any musician or group of any genre out of the water.
Seriously, listen to one of The Necks' swirling, hypnotic piano, upright bass & drum improvisations, that builds to a crescendo over about an hour of intertwining layers & variations, and try to tell me that it really really sucks.
also: piano good, brass & woodwind bad.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
You might be listening to the wrong stuff.
Personally, I don't get a lot of mileage out of anything too upbeat, toe-tapping and 'jazzy', so although I have a handful of 'classic' stuff like Miles Davis & John Coltrane, I far prefer it when it's more minimalist & moody - some of the music on the ECM label, for example, as well as Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti, and especially The Necks, who I think blow just about any musician or group of any genre out of the water.
Seriously, listen to one of The Necks' swirling, hypnotic piano, upright bass & drum improvisations, that builds to a crescendo over about an hour of intertwining layers & variations, and try to tell me that it really really sucks.
also: piano good, brass & woodwind bad.
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:14 PM on October 7, 2010 [1 favorite]
There's actually some jazz that I like. There's a show on Friday nights on the local NPR station that almost always delivers (and the DJ is an old college-radio friend of my gf), but for the most part jazz and jazzbos just bore the fuck out of me. The Monday-Thursday show is perfect for that. I can listen to it for about 4 minutes before I want to choke somebody, and he's the DJ.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 9:25 PM on October 7, 2010
posted by Jimmy Havok at 9:25 PM on October 7, 2010
Keith Jarrett
Yeah, he totally humps Keith Jarret's leg...
posted by Jimmy Havok at 9:27 PM on October 7, 2010
Yeah, he totally humps Keith Jarret's leg...
posted by Jimmy Havok at 9:27 PM on October 7, 2010
My favorite thing in the 90s indie music gold rush was Virgin Records giving Royal Trux a million dollars to go back to Drag City.
And yet "Thank You" is one of my favorite Trux records. Is it too much of a segue (in a musical thread of segues) for me to say that, though I've enjoyed Neil Hagerty's solo material, I really, truly miss the Royal Trux? And not Jennifer Herrema's weird RTX reboot, but the actual Trux.
Also, I love Sonic Youth( even the newer records that no one else likes) but Steve Albini has a point. As does koeselitz, regarding Miles Davis.
Incidentally, this thread is like nostalgia central for me. I mean that in a completely affectionate, sad-that-these-arguments-are-not-happening-with-alcohol-and-a-stack-of-records sort of way.
posted by thivaia at 10:10 PM on October 7, 2010
I hate almost all jazz. And reggae. What do I win?
Are you Morrissey?
posted by Infinite Jest at 1:27 AM on October 8, 2010
Are you Morrissey?
posted by Infinite Jest at 1:27 AM on October 8, 2010
No, he never had no win ever.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:52 AM on October 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:52 AM on October 8, 2010 [3 favorites]
my favorite musician is Sidney Bechet
It's a bit old for mine, but it's definitely swinging, inventive and ebullient. How we going to have some pissfight if you keep all this sweet reasonableness up?
posted by Wolof at 6:36 AM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's a bit old for mine, but it's definitely swinging, inventive and ebullient. How we going to have some pissfight if you keep all this sweet reasonableness up?
posted by Wolof at 6:36 AM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
And yet "Thank You" is one of my favorite Trux records. Is it too much of a segue (in a musical thread of segues) for me to say that, though I've enjoyed Neil Hagerty's solo material, I really, truly miss the Royal Trux? And not Jennifer Herrema's weird RTX reboot, but the actual Trux.
Thank You is a tremendous record. And Sweet Sixteen ain't bad either. It's just always cracked me up that Trux got more money to walk away from that deal than they ever made selling records. Infrequently, the system is fucked up in the artists' favor.
I also am still not over the Royal Trux breakup. And I also agree that Haggerty's solo material and stuff withe the Howling Hex has been pretty great (All Night Fox is one of the best albums of the past 10 years), and that RTX is weird and depressing. But the most depressing post breakup material is on the first Howling Hex album, where Haggerty does a bunch of songs that were almost certainly meant to be Neil'n'Jen duets and they just do not work at all without her. It's heartbreaking on a few levels.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:05 AM on October 8, 2010
Thank You is a tremendous record. And Sweet Sixteen ain't bad either. It's just always cracked me up that Trux got more money to walk away from that deal than they ever made selling records. Infrequently, the system is fucked up in the artists' favor.
I also am still not over the Royal Trux breakup. And I also agree that Haggerty's solo material and stuff withe the Howling Hex has been pretty great (All Night Fox is one of the best albums of the past 10 years), and that RTX is weird and depressing. But the most depressing post breakup material is on the first Howling Hex album, where Haggerty does a bunch of songs that were almost certainly meant to be Neil'n'Jen duets and they just do not work at all without her. It's heartbreaking on a few levels.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:05 AM on October 8, 2010
(Kim Gordon is just a year younger than my mom!)
Big deal. Kim Gordon IS my mom...
posted by Skygazer at 8:47 AM on October 8, 2010
Big deal. Kim Gordon IS my mom...
posted by Skygazer at 8:47 AM on October 8, 2010
Oh man, did someone (BARDIC) really just diss someone else (Koeslitz) by saying he likes K-0-e-0-n-0-n-0-y G?
Whoa...whoa...yeessh...
Ouch.
Whew.
Yeoow.
Easy does it fella...
I'm tempted to take this to MeTa...
posted by Skygazer at 8:57 AM on October 8, 2010
Whoa...whoa...yeessh...
Ouch.
Whew.
Yeoow.
Easy does it fella...
I'm tempted to take this to MeTa...
posted by Skygazer at 8:57 AM on October 8, 2010
I hate almost all jazz. And reggae. What do I win?
Okay, I'll bite. Outright dismissal of an entire genre of music is akin to racism in my book, certainly xenophobia. Be honest. You just don't get jazz + reggae (or whatever else it may be that you claim to hate). Hate a particular song or artist -- that's just self-preservation, but an entire genre that speaks to the soul of an entire culture. You gotta try harder than that.
Polka is an exception to this. It's okay to HATE the official party music of the Third Reich, and likely will be for at least another fifty years.
posted by philip-random at 9:28 AM on October 8, 2010
Okay, I'll bite. Outright dismissal of an entire genre of music is akin to racism in my book, certainly xenophobia. Be honest. You just don't get jazz + reggae (or whatever else it may be that you claim to hate). Hate a particular song or artist -- that's just self-preservation, but an entire genre that speaks to the soul of an entire culture. You gotta try harder than that.
Polka is an exception to this. It's okay to HATE the official party music of the Third Reich, and likely will be for at least another fifty years.
posted by philip-random at 9:28 AM on October 8, 2010
I guess hate is a strong word to use in this instance but I think he meant it as synonymous with "don't get it". I don't know if that equals dismissal though.
posted by josher71 at 9:58 AM on October 8, 2010
posted by josher71 at 9:58 AM on October 8, 2010
The part of this thread that was not about jazz was really great and it inspired me to have another listen to all 70 minutes and 51 seconds of Daydream Nation, which I had not done in years. That is a great CD. Not at the Let it Bleed heights of genius, but still a great CD.
I hope the jazz posters were posting drunk. A couple of them are posters who I really like so I am just going to forget that part of this thread.
posted by bukvich at 1:19 PM on October 8, 2010 [4 favorites]
I hope the jazz posters were posting drunk. A couple of them are posters who I really like so I am just going to forget that part of this thread.
posted by bukvich at 1:19 PM on October 8, 2010 [4 favorites]
Okay, I'll bite. Outright dismissal of an entire genre of music is akin to racism in my book, certainly xenophobia. Be honest. You just don't get jazz + reggae (or whatever else it may be that you claim to hate). Hate a particular song or artist -- that's just self-preservation, but an entire genre that speaks to the soul of an entire culture.
Have you considered that he was being a bit jocose?
Also: not liking a genre of music is akin to racism? You're minimizing racism by saying that. People are allowed to have whatever musical taste they want. Oh, but musical genres correspond to "cultures"? Yeah, I know. So be it. Those "cultures" don't trump individual freedom to like or dislike certain styles of music. And throwing around loaded words like "racism" or "xenophobia" based on not liking someone's musical taste is toxic. Blech.
But again, this is all a rather silly tangent since I think it's pretty clear Skot was joking around.
posted by John Cohen at 1:53 PM on October 8, 2010
Have you considered that he was being a bit jocose?
Also: not liking a genre of music is akin to racism? You're minimizing racism by saying that. People are allowed to have whatever musical taste they want. Oh, but musical genres correspond to "cultures"? Yeah, I know. So be it. Those "cultures" don't trump individual freedom to like or dislike certain styles of music. And throwing around loaded words like "racism" or "xenophobia" based on not liking someone's musical taste is toxic. Blech.
But again, this is all a rather silly tangent since I think it's pretty clear Skot was joking around.
posted by John Cohen at 1:53 PM on October 8, 2010
Okay, I'll bite. Outright dismissal of an entire genre of music is akin to racism in my book, certainly xenophobia.
Wow, what? I had like three-quarters of my tongue jammed in my cheek. That said, it's somewhat true: they are two genres of music that I don't typically enjoy. You can load country in there too. But I can think of dozens of exceptions for each one. Well, whatever, I was mostly just clowning around.
posted by Skot at 2:17 PM on October 8, 2010
Wow, what? I had like three-quarters of my tongue jammed in my cheek. That said, it's somewhat true: they are two genres of music that I don't typically enjoy. You can load country in there too. But I can think of dozens of exceptions for each one. Well, whatever, I was mostly just clowning around.
posted by Skot at 2:17 PM on October 8, 2010
Nobody likes to see their own oxes gored, it seems. However, this thread provides ample evidence that Steve Albini is the Noam Chomsky of music.
posted by rhizome at 11:12 PM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 11:12 PM on October 8, 2010 [1 favorite]
However, this thread provides ample evidence that Steve Albini is the Noam Chomsky of music.
hey kids, if you're playing along at home, just fyi, this is not a compliment.
just sayin'.
posted by dersins at 12:49 AM on October 9, 2010
hey kids, if you're playing along at home, just fyi, this is not a compliment.
just sayin'.
posted by dersins at 12:49 AM on October 9, 2010
just fyi, this is not a compliment.
That really depends on how stupid you are.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 1:02 PM on October 9, 2010
That really depends on how stupid you are.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 1:02 PM on October 9, 2010
Man, it really hurts to be called "stupid" by a guy like you, Jimmy Havok.
posted by dersins at 3:29 PM on October 9, 2010
posted by dersins at 3:29 PM on October 9, 2010
Maybe you should think about what I said a little bit more.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 4:17 PM on October 9, 2010
posted by Jimmy Havok at 4:17 PM on October 9, 2010
I can't-- I'm too stupid!
posted by dersins at 5:02 PM on October 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by dersins at 5:02 PM on October 9, 2010 [1 favorite]
hey kids, if you're playing along at home, just fyi, this is not a compliment.
It's a compliment for Steve Albini.
posted by rhizome at 4:37 PM on October 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
It's a compliment for Steve Albini.
posted by rhizome at 4:37 PM on October 11, 2010 [1 favorite]
No, he never had no win ever.
UbuRoivas for the........
wait for it...
wait for it.....
WIN!!!
HA HA HA!!
posted by Skygazer at 12:16 PM on October 14, 2010
UbuRoivas for the........
wait for it...
wait for it.....
WIN!!!
HA HA HA!!
posted by Skygazer at 12:16 PM on October 14, 2010
I just had this epiphany that musicians smoke pot so often because, otherwise, these "who's a hack/you're stupid" conversations would otherwise lead to a lot of open hostility. Music's a sensitive subject, it would seem.
posted by davejay at 10:19 AM on October 19, 2010
posted by davejay at 10:19 AM on October 19, 2010
I just had this epiphany that musicians smoke pot so often because, otherwise, these "who's a hack/you're stupid" conversations would otherwise lead to a lot of open hostility.
...and that's why we have jazz.
*ducks*
posted by Sys Rq at 12:16 PM on October 19, 2010
...and that's why we have jazz.
*ducks*
posted by Sys Rq at 12:16 PM on October 19, 2010
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posted by josher71 at 1:24 PM on October 6, 2010