The Waste Land
December 22, 2010 12:38 PM Subscribe
"The Simple Software That Could —but Probably Won't—Change the Face of Writing." James Somers on Google's Etherpad (previously).
Whoah, wait, people actually don't save drafts of their writing as they write? Seriously?! That sounds totally backwards to me. I usually wind up several several documents with a 01, 02, 03 etc, stuck on the end. I can't imagine just reworking the text over and over in one document.
posted by nomadicink at 12:44 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by nomadicink at 12:44 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
Etherpad is very cool. Professional typesetting systems have tracked "changes" ( depends on what you consider a change, rarely is is it one key) for years in order to provide blackline proofs for a revision cycle. They can "copy/revise" from a changeset level. Hell even word tracks changes. It is the play button that makes this interesting.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by Ad hominem at 12:48 PM on December 22, 2010
I guess you could say this will ether change the face of writing—or it won't! Hahahahahaohgodi'msosorry.
posted by Zozo at 12:49 PM on December 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by Zozo at 12:49 PM on December 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
This sounds like one of those things I'd like to watch once, just because it would be cool to see how my writing evolves over time. But then I'd never use it again.
I've been writing for years, and I've never once wanted to revert to a previous draft. (Though I might feel differently if I did some sort of legal writing.)
I am rarely confident that my writing is good. But I'm always confident that it's better now than it was in yesterday.
posted by grumblebee at 12:54 PM on December 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
I've been writing for years, and I've never once wanted to revert to a previous draft. (Though I might feel differently if I did some sort of legal writing.)
I am rarely confident that my writing is good. But I'm always confident that it's better now than it was in yesterday.
posted by grumblebee at 12:54 PM on December 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
"Etherpad was acquired by Google and folded into the Google Wave team, another project that ... is now basically defunct."
So Etherpad is vaporware, then.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:59 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
So Etherpad is vaporware, then.
posted by Greg_Ace at 12:59 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
A software development team I work with uses etherpad as a lightweight wiki for feature discussions. It has its use(s).
posted by hanoixan at 1:04 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by hanoixan at 1:04 PM on December 22, 2010
So Etherpad is vaporware, then.
Did you click on the links? Do you know what vaporware means?
Instructions for compiling and running the EtherPad open source release
Welcome to open sourced EtherPad!
This file contains instructions for compiling and running the etherpad open source release. The steps have been tested on MacOS X and Linux. Windows users will probably want to grab Cygwin.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:04 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
Did you click on the links? Do you know what vaporware means?
Instructions for compiling and running the EtherPad open source release
Welcome to open sourced EtherPad!
This file contains instructions for compiling and running the etherpad open source release. The steps have been tested on MacOS X and Linux. Windows users will probably want to grab Cygwin.
posted by Threeway Handshake at 1:04 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
Whoah, wait, people actually don't save drafts of their writing as they write? Seriously?! That sounds totally backwards to me. I usually wind up several several documents with a 01, 02, 03 etc, stuck on the end. I can't imagine just reworking the text over and over in one document.
The real problem is that I stop and compose comments in my word processor, then copy and paste them into the comment boxes. So a full log of my work would also feature a full log of my comments. In a way that would be really interesting, to see what exactly I was reading and commenting on while I write.
posted by 2bucksplus at 1:08 PM on December 22, 2010
The real problem is that I stop and compose comments in my word processor, then copy and paste them into the comment boxes. So a full log of my work would also feature a full log of my comments. In a way that would be really interesting, to see what exactly I was reading and commenting on while I write.
posted by 2bucksplus at 1:08 PM on December 22, 2010
Why doesn't Google Docs update every half second like Etherpad does? Because it's really, really hard. We're fairly experienced programmers, and to make this work we had to solve problems that, as far as we know, no one had solved before.
As a programmer, I really enjoyed this comment. Especially after hearing people say "Why can't you make your program do what program X does?"
posted by demiurge at 1:09 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
As a programmer, I really enjoyed this comment. Especially after hearing people say "Why can't you make your program do what program X does?"
posted by demiurge at 1:09 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
So source control, a mainstay in software development and slowly getting integrated into operating systems, is getting ported to writing?
posted by meowzilla at 1:10 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by meowzilla at 1:10 PM on December 22, 2010
Did you click on the links? Do you know what vaporware means?
I'm thinking it was a joke? There were some italics in there to emphasize said joke.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
I'm thinking it was a joke? There were some italics in there to emphasize said joke.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
The big thing isn't the version control system, it's the real-time collaborative editing.
posted by demiurge at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by demiurge at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2010
Future historians will be fascinated by the sheer number of instances of "blah" and "ugh" struck from my writings.
posted by Flunkie at 1:16 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by Flunkie at 1:16 PM on December 22, 2010
"Whoah, wait, people actually don't save drafts of their writing as they write? Seriously?! That sounds totally backwards to me. I usually wind up several several documents with a 01, 02, 03 etc, stuck on the end. I can't imagine just reworking the text over and over in one document."
When I write it goes in one of two ways: either I write it once and that's it (like this comment), or I write and then endlessly rewrite the same lines without going forward , get frustrated and eventually quit. (The etherpad record of even short documents would be an endless muddle of moving words around, rewriting single sentences and fixing typos.) Unfortunately, modern word processing is a great enabler of the latter mode, which makes it hard to finish anything. I like the sound of your method. Limiting the editing to a few clearly defined "drafts" would most likely speed things up considerably.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
When I write it goes in one of two ways: either I write it once and that's it (like this comment), or I write and then endlessly rewrite the same lines without going forward , get frustrated and eventually quit. (The etherpad record of even short documents would be an endless muddle of moving words around, rewriting single sentences and fixing typos.) Unfortunately, modern word processing is a great enabler of the latter mode, which makes it hard to finish anything. I like the sound of your method. Limiting the editing to a few clearly defined "drafts" would most likely speed things up considerably.
posted by Kevin Street at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
This is so disappointing.
posted by parmanparman at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by parmanparman at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2010
Metafilter's discussion of the original Paul Graham essay
posted by mecran01 at 1:31 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by mecran01 at 1:31 PM on December 22, 2010
The big thing isn't the version control system, it's the real-time collaborative editing.
I am interested how they do this too. Obviously some sort of comet setup but I bet they queue changes so dupe changes don't apply twice, say if three users send "delete the e at position 5" the second two don't apply. They can also send deltas to clients as a stream of one char changes.
What happens if two people open the same doc and just start typing as fast as possible.
posted by Ad hominem at 1:32 PM on December 22, 2010
I am interested how they do this too. Obviously some sort of comet setup but I bet they queue changes so dupe changes don't apply twice, say if three users send "delete the e at position 5" the second two don't apply. They can also send deltas to clients as a stream of one char changes.
What happens if two people open the same doc and just start typing as fast as possible.
posted by Ad hominem at 1:32 PM on December 22, 2010
There has got to be a generic "Add the char X to the current end".
posted by Ad hominem at 1:34 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by Ad hominem at 1:34 PM on December 22, 2010
"I have a few theories, but they all start with the fact that writing is fundamentally about the final draft. It's not like writing code, say, where recording one's every change is standard practice."
As a technical writer, I call bullshit. The first thing I did at my last major gig was add the documentation to the version control system. Since then, that's one of the first things I ask: "Do you use version control for your documentation?" Especially when there are multiple editors/writers, it's invaluable.
posted by Eideteker at 1:37 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
As a technical writer, I call bullshit. The first thing I did at my last major gig was add the documentation to the version control system. Since then, that's one of the first things I ask: "Do you use version control for your documentation?" Especially when there are multiple editors/writers, it's invaluable.
posted by Eideteker at 1:37 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
I author business documents and it is typical to have a dozen or more draft versions. I routinely re-use content from different drafts.
When I write other documents (including fiction) I also save many draft versions. Unlike grumblebee, I sometimes find the way I first said something was actually the best, and reworking can make stuff stale. Earlier drafts have a freshness and vitality that is occasionally lost if you rewrite the item.
posted by bystander at 1:40 PM on December 22, 2010
When I write other documents (including fiction) I also save many draft versions. Unlike grumblebee, I sometimes find the way I first said something was actually the best, and reworking can make stuff stale. Earlier drafts have a freshness and vitality that is occasionally lost if you rewrite the item.
posted by bystander at 1:40 PM on December 22, 2010
From the essay:
Some of Eliot's typescripts had marks all over them, marks which were known to be the notes of Ezra Pound, Eliot's champion in the U.S. and a well-known literary critic.
I think that if you're going to use "The Waste Land" as your lead example, you can probably get away with not giving Pound that kind of introduction at all. But if you do feel the need to give Pound an introduction, maybe noting that he's also somewhat well known as a poet himself wouldn't be out of place.
posted by kenko at 1:46 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
Some of Eliot's typescripts had marks all over them, marks which were known to be the notes of Ezra Pound, Eliot's champion in the U.S. and a well-known literary critic.
I think that if you're going to use "The Waste Land" as your lead example, you can probably get away with not giving Pound that kind of introduction at all. But if you do feel the need to give Pound an introduction, maybe noting that he's also somewhat well known as a poet himself wouldn't be out of place.
posted by kenko at 1:46 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
Arrrg: So something else must be going on. We must not want to write using a tool that tracks our every move.
Or maybe people have just never heard of it. Not everyone reads Hacker News. And it's true, there seems to be no value in having something that tracks your every keystroke, as opposed to version control. A lot of those keystrokes are completely unimportant. And plenty of people do use version control for non-code uses.
posted by kenko at 1:48 PM on December 22, 2010
Or maybe people have just never heard of it. Not everyone reads Hacker News. And it's true, there seems to be no value in having something that tracks your every keystroke, as opposed to version control. A lot of those keystrokes are completely unimportant. And plenty of people do use version control for non-code uses.
posted by kenko at 1:48 PM on December 22, 2010
When I write a screenplay I have the actual script and a "leftovers" file. Whenever I cut a scene or a version of a scene, I paste it into "leftovers." I usually end up with 600-900 pages of leftovers for a 100-page finished script. So if I ever want to put a scene back, I just find it in the leftovers.
I don't think i exactly came up with this concept, either.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:49 PM on December 22, 2010
I don't think i exactly came up with this concept, either.
posted by drjimmy11 at 1:49 PM on December 22, 2010
So if I ever want to put a scene back, I just find it in the leftovers.
Which is why version control is so wonderful. Whenever I want a bit of code that I deleted in the past, I just search the commit comments for "Deleted such and such". Assuming I was being a good boy that day (and I usually am where code commit comments come into play), I don't have to do any searching.
posted by yerfatma at 1:55 PM on December 22, 2010
Which is why version control is so wonderful. Whenever I want a bit of code that I deleted in the past, I just search the commit comments for "Deleted such and such". Assuming I was being a good boy that day (and I usually am where code commit comments come into play), I don't have to do any searching.
posted by yerfatma at 1:55 PM on December 22, 2010
If the typographically horrific original headline is
posted by joeclark at 2:14 PM on December 22, 2010
The Simple Software That Could -- but Probably Won't -- Change the Face of Writingthen changing it to
The Simple Software That Could —but Probably Won't—Change the Face of Writingsolves at most half the problem. Surrounding it in neutral quotes only makes matters worse. (And spot the extraneous space.)
posted by joeclark at 2:14 PM on December 22, 2010
I usually wind up several several documents with a 01, 02, 03 etc, stuck on the end.
revision control exists now
posted by DU at 2:14 PM on December 22, 2010
revision control exists now
posted by DU at 2:14 PM on December 22, 2010
My first full-time programming job used various tools that ran on VMS. There, the operating system handled journalling - so if you edited a file called fred.txt, every revision you saved via the OS was recorded as fred.txt;1 fred.txt;2 and so on. Crude, but this was the first half of the 1980s - and, of course, you got it for free with every app.
Some editors also had keystroke journalling, which was just a file containing every keystroke you made. If you wanted to return to a point half-way between your current edit and the previous one, you edited the keystroke journal, then ran a restore on the previous version of the edited document. Again, crude and by no means eejitproof, but it got me out of messes several dimensions of nasty away from the sort of thing ^z can handle. (Don't ask me about MS Office's versioning, or I'll hit you with a VT-52 keyboard.)
I still miss that. If there's a way of adding per-file journalling to Linux, please tell me. Back in the day, I tried to add it to MS-DOS and nearly got there (was doing networking stuff on both sides of the API, so most of the bits were to hand). In the end, the combination of DOS' nasty FCB/handle schizophrenia (which I refuse at this point to expand upon) and its arse-achingly bad file naming system defeated me.
(Yes, that's the same thing with the grotty hack that MS is using to get license fees from Linux users. Grr.)
posted by Devonian at 2:18 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
Some editors also had keystroke journalling, which was just a file containing every keystroke you made. If you wanted to return to a point half-way between your current edit and the previous one, you edited the keystroke journal, then ran a restore on the previous version of the edited document. Again, crude and by no means eejitproof, but it got me out of messes several dimensions of nasty away from the sort of thing ^z can handle. (Don't ask me about MS Office's versioning, or I'll hit you with a VT-52 keyboard.)
I still miss that. If there's a way of adding per-file journalling to Linux, please tell me. Back in the day, I tried to add it to MS-DOS and nearly got there (was doing networking stuff on both sides of the API, so most of the bits were to hand). In the end, the combination of DOS' nasty FCB/handle schizophrenia (which I refuse at this point to expand upon) and its arse-achingly bad file naming system defeated me.
(Yes, that's the same thing with the grotty hack that MS is using to get license fees from Linux users. Grr.)
posted by Devonian at 2:18 PM on December 22, 2010 [3 favorites]
Also, while I applaud the world catching on to revision control, I do NOT applaud the world giving EnormoCorp control of those revisions. Do computers not have hard drives anymore? Or, if you must work online, you aren't willing to pay for a little space of your own?
posted by DU at 2:30 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by DU at 2:30 PM on December 22, 2010
I work on a system that still uses VMS for that very feature.
posted by Ad hominem at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by Ad hominem at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2010
All my writing history would look like "command+v, command+v"
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:45 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:45 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
I use a little version control in my fiction writing, only for major revisions. (So, typically 3 to 6 versions for a novel). It's most useful when I include a plot point or description in draft 1, drop it out in draft 2, then want it again in draft 3 -- I can probably write it better in draft 3, but I want draft 1 to at least remind me what was there.
I was also glad to have it when I lost 18,000 words of draft 6 in a hard drive crash and drafts 1-5 were my only backup. Draft 6 was such a total rewrite that it didn't help a lot, but it was a lot better than nothing.
Still, I think I like my own system better than something like etherpad -- pulling up 3 or 4 files and searching a distinctive phrase seems more efficient than fast-forwarding through hundreds of hours of putting words in and out.
posted by Jeanne at 2:47 PM on December 22, 2010
I was also glad to have it when I lost 18,000 words of draft 6 in a hard drive crash and drafts 1-5 were my only backup. Draft 6 was such a total rewrite that it didn't help a lot, but it was a lot better than nothing.
Still, I think I like my own system better than something like etherpad -- pulling up 3 or 4 files and searching a distinctive phrase seems more efficient than fast-forwarding through hundreds of hours of putting words in and out.
posted by Jeanne at 2:47 PM on December 22, 2010
I still miss that. If there's a way of adding per-file journalling to Linux, please tell me.
There are a few solutions to this depending on the size of your Unix beard. Easiest would be to just store your files into Dropbox. This limits you mostly to restoring from an older version of a file, like Time Machine on the Mac, but it's saved my bacon a couple of times.
The best thing I've found, though, is to ust set up a local git repository for whatever thing it is I'm working on . The secret to git is that git works great even if you tae the D out of DVCS.
Init any local directory, add the files that make up your project, commit them to a master branch. Then I can, for example, check out a new branch where I go through and change the age of one of y characters from 14 to 16, without having to finish that arduous task before gong on to some other change - if I get inspired in the middle of that task to do something else I cn just check out a different branch and start working. Then If I decide to forget about he whole age thing I don't bother merging that branch in.
That was a contrived example but the ability to throw up your hands and walk away from a poorly conceived set of changes by just. walking away and doing nothing is very satisfying for me.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:45 PM on December 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
There are a few solutions to this depending on the size of your Unix beard. Easiest would be to just store your files into Dropbox. This limits you mostly to restoring from an older version of a file, like Time Machine on the Mac, but it's saved my bacon a couple of times.
The best thing I've found, though, is to ust set up a local git repository for whatever thing it is I'm working on . The secret to git is that git works great even if you tae the D out of DVCS.
Init any local directory, add the files that make up your project, commit them to a master branch. Then I can, for example, check out a new branch where I go through and change the age of one of y characters from 14 to 16, without having to finish that arduous task before gong on to some other change - if I get inspired in the middle of that task to do something else I cn just check out a different branch and start working. Then If I decide to forget about he whole age thing I don't bother merging that branch in.
That was a contrived example but the ability to throw up your hands and walk away from a poorly conceived set of changes by just. walking away and doing nothing is very satisfying for me.
posted by Space Coyote at 3:45 PM on December 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Started out skeptical, but seeing Somers' article happen in real time was actually very interesting. Nice to see I'm not the only one that writes things like "put more analysis and shit here"
posted by r_nebblesworthII at 4:06 PM on December 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by r_nebblesworthII at 4:06 PM on December 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Seconding Space Coyote, although I'm more familiar with bzr than git, this is exactly what I do. Just bzr init some dir and then check stuff in as I reach checkpoints.
posted by DU at 4:08 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by DU at 4:08 PM on December 22, 2010
From version 1449 of the first linked article:
here's where I probably mention that I wrote this very piece in etherpad. couple points to make w/r/t that:
- I'm no eliot nor even a pg, so really, who gives a shit?
- even as I'm drafting these notes---this very clause, even---I'm a little self-conscious, not *paralyzingly* so, but self-conscious nonetheless.
- you have this problem that the writers whose granular notes would be most valuable to other people are precisely those writers (i'd think) least likely to use the damn thing.
- I've done this experiment before, shortly after the feature was unveiled, and I have to say, it's a bit like watching yourself on film for the first time. It sort of sucks, that is.
Seeing it in action -- by re-playing the writing of the article -- was, for me, the most interesting thing about the link.
Gotta say, having taught freshmen in a writing-intensive course, something like Etherpad has pedagogic potential I'd never thought about, until the author mentioned it. (How many essays would be littered with Ctrl-v, I wonder?) Thankfully for future students, I no longer teach!
posted by bumpkin at 4:52 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
here's where I probably mention that I wrote this very piece in etherpad. couple points to make w/r/t that:
- I'm no eliot nor even a pg, so really, who gives a shit?
- even as I'm drafting these notes---this very clause, even---I'm a little self-conscious, not *paralyzingly* so, but self-conscious nonetheless.
- you have this problem that the writers whose granular notes would be most valuable to other people are precisely those writers (i'd think) least likely to use the damn thing.
- I've done this experiment before, shortly after the feature was unveiled, and I have to say, it's a bit like watching yourself on film for the first time. It sort of sucks, that is.
Seeing it in action -- by re-playing the writing of the article -- was, for me, the most interesting thing about the link.
Gotta say, having taught freshmen in a writing-intensive course, something like Etherpad has pedagogic potential I'd never thought about, until the author mentioned it. (How many essays would be littered with Ctrl-v, I wonder?) Thankfully for future students, I no longer teach!
posted by bumpkin at 4:52 PM on December 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
This exists today in shared documents in Google Docs. My company's weekly scrum meeting has 4 or 5 people all editing a doc in real time, as we check things off (greying them out) or move them up or down in priority, or reassigning them to other people, or adding notes.
It is nothing short of amazing.
posted by andreaazure at 5:00 PM on December 22, 2010
It is nothing short of amazing.
posted by andreaazure at 5:00 PM on December 22, 2010
I presented a time-lapsed video (150 mins -> 5 mins) of myself writing a 1000 word essay at Ignite Seattle 12 a few weeks ago. I think having the writer explain what they're doing fulfills the promise more than just watching stuff happen.
Here's the video: How to write 1000 words
I hadn't heard of Etherpad, but as it only captures what's in the app/browser, it's less interesting for this stunt/exercise.
posted by Berkun at 5:37 PM on December 22, 2010 [5 favorites]
Here's the video: How to write 1000 words
I hadn't heard of Etherpad, but as it only captures what's in the app/browser, it's less interesting for this stunt/exercise.
posted by Berkun at 5:37 PM on December 22, 2010 [5 favorites]
I actually used Etherpad (or rather, a hosted version of it post-Google ascension) in a literary translation course I taught this past semester. It was great to be able to save versions of changes as the class worked on consensus translations. I'd strongly, strongly recommend it for anybody who might have a similar use case -- easy to use, and there's an instant sense of accomplishment for students and teachers alike when you hit the 'Play' button and see all the stuff you've done.
posted by bokane at 5:45 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by bokane at 5:45 PM on December 22, 2010
Mmm. Version control has its joys and git looks interesting anyway, but it wouldn't be a good fit for a lot of the things I do. Likewise, I do store things in Dropbox and Google Docs (and Gmail, which remains the best for that for quite a large set of things).
But I'd like my old VMS automatic, no-fuss, under-the-hood OS provided, simple, fred.txt;3. It's a shame that nobody's built it for Linux.
All this reminds me of yet another project I've not done, which is a single-purpose USB key containing a bootable word processor with virtually no features - the idea being that you boot into this when you want to write and can't afford distractions. Got a way into the spec, and worked out that you wanted per-character autosave, the sort of file journalling that I so love and miss, and a stand-alone utility to manage the files so created. It was trying to work out how to add that into a teeny Linux that made me realise that it wasn't really there - and hence my original question.
I've seen some word processors that go a long way towards the no-distraction idea, but none that actually boot from USB, all the better to slay the Internet ADHD dragon. But this, one fears, is thread drift.
posted by Devonian at 5:51 PM on December 22, 2010
But I'd like my old VMS automatic, no-fuss, under-the-hood OS provided, simple, fred.txt;3. It's a shame that nobody's built it for Linux.
All this reminds me of yet another project I've not done, which is a single-purpose USB key containing a bootable word processor with virtually no features - the idea being that you boot into this when you want to write and can't afford distractions. Got a way into the spec, and worked out that you wanted per-character autosave, the sort of file journalling that I so love and miss, and a stand-alone utility to manage the files so created. It was trying to work out how to add that into a teeny Linux that made me realise that it wasn't really there - and hence my original question.
I've seen some word processors that go a long way towards the no-distraction idea, but none that actually boot from USB, all the better to slay the Internet ADHD dragon. But this, one fears, is thread drift.
posted by Devonian at 5:51 PM on December 22, 2010
But I'd like my old VMS automatic, no-fuss, under-the-hood OS provided, simple, fred.txt;3. It's a shame that nobody's built it for Linux.
I bet emacs will do this. Emacs will do everything.
posted by DU at 6:02 PM on December 22, 2010
I bet emacs will do this. Emacs will do everything.
posted by DU at 6:02 PM on December 22, 2010
The thing is, sometimes we learn good and interesting things from early drafts, but sometimes the result is a travesty.
posted by prefpara at 6:27 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by prefpara at 6:27 PM on December 22, 2010
Indeed, googling for "emacs vms fileversion" gives this.
posted by DU at 7:08 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by DU at 7:08 PM on December 22, 2010
When I'm writing a book, I start e-mailing myself the manuscript every thousand words or so, once I get past the exposition. But you know, I don't want people looking at my leftovers and failures and brain-drippings. I revise until the book (hopefully) says what I mean, and everything else is garbage. If those bits were any good, they'd still be in there.
posted by headspace at 7:31 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by headspace at 7:31 PM on December 22, 2010
The big thing isn't the version control system, it's the real-time collaborative editing.
Yeah, but when you collaboratively edit my text, without fully understanding it, I'm gonna want to version control it back to the way it was.
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:52 PM on December 22, 2010
Yeah, but when you collaboratively edit my text, without fully understanding it, I'm gonna want to version control it back to the way it was.
posted by StickyCarpet at 7:52 PM on December 22, 2010
I was just about to say that Emacs will do save a versioned backup every tiime you write a file if you set the variable version-control to true. The drawback is that if you don't use emacs to edit everything then you don't get the versioning. Git is excellent for version control but it's not automatic. You have to commit a set of files. Solaris/Zfs has copy on write and something called Timeslider which will take snapshots of a file-system at set intervals. Btrfs also has snapshots. It's in Ubuntu and I assume someone has or will very soon write some sort of time machine like functionality for it. Btrfs is not as developed as Zfs in terms of it's toolset. That's not quite TOPS20/VMS file versioning but it does something close.
posted by rdr at 8:01 PM on December 22, 2010
posted by rdr at 8:01 PM on December 22, 2010
File versioning (from ITS/TOPS20) is wonderful as is version control for big projects. I wish standard hardware came with software that would do this in a lightweight fashion, rather than average users having to cook up manual schemes or install software for really complex schemes.
Something like Etherpad might be useful if it existed unobtrusively in the background but I find the milestones of separately saved versions or checkpoints meaningful because at such times I indicated that I was somewhat happy with a paragraph/section/function-definition, at least enough for it to be saved and be recoverable if my further efforts messed things up.
Maybe something like Etherpad with an imposed hierarchy of meaningful changes might be useful but then it might become too complex for simple use use.
On the other hand, something like Etherpad would appear to antithetical to various problems associated with Writer's Block. One manifestation of one type of writers block is that a writer using a word processor never progresses in the writing because he/she doesn't just try to bang out the ideas in a crude, maybe misspelled or ungrammatical fashion but instead spends say endless time rewriting and polishing a paragraph that if the writer ever wrote something beyond that might get thrown out.
Then again something like Etherpad might be able to tell such a blocked writer that he/she has spent way too much time revising the same thing over and over and should go on to new things.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 11:48 PM on December 22, 2010
Something like Etherpad might be useful if it existed unobtrusively in the background but I find the milestones of separately saved versions or checkpoints meaningful because at such times I indicated that I was somewhat happy with a paragraph/section/function-definition, at least enough for it to be saved and be recoverable if my further efforts messed things up.
Maybe something like Etherpad with an imposed hierarchy of meaningful changes might be useful but then it might become too complex for simple use use.
On the other hand, something like Etherpad would appear to antithetical to various problems associated with Writer's Block. One manifestation of one type of writers block is that a writer using a word processor never progresses in the writing because he/she doesn't just try to bang out the ideas in a crude, maybe misspelled or ungrammatical fashion but instead spends say endless time rewriting and polishing a paragraph that if the writer ever wrote something beyond that might get thrown out.
Then again something like Etherpad might be able to tell such a blocked writer that he/she has spent way too much time revising the same thing over and over and should go on to new things.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 11:48 PM on December 22, 2010
Having shrugged it off earlier in the thread, I suddenly thought I'd find it useful. I'm about to embark on a collaborative project. So I checked it out. It doesn't have a spellchecker as-far-as I can tell. Fail.
posted by grumblebee at 6:37 AM on December 23, 2010
posted by grumblebee at 6:37 AM on December 23, 2010
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posted by whimsicalnymph at 12:42 PM on December 22, 2010