Rev. Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, f*cking lunatics.
September 14, 2001 5:02 AM Subscribe
Rev. Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, f*cking lunatics.
'gays, feminists, "pagans," and a host of liberal advocacy groups have made "God mad" and must share the blame for the terrorist attacks'
As someone who considers himself a follower of the message of Christ, it would be nice if my fellow "christians" realized that there "leaders" are bigots who hide behind the bible. In that they share much with the attackers who distort islam and hide behind the koran.
posted by revbrian at 5:28 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by revbrian at 5:28 AM on September 14, 2001
I'd wondered when this would happen. I have a better question: Shouldn't Christians be seriously questioning whether they are in fact the infidel given the major blow struck by Allah against this largely Christian nation? Perhaps it's not the liberals and the tolerant to blame but the very religious establishment for bringing down the wrath of God.
posted by shagoth at 5:29 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by shagoth at 5:29 AM on September 14, 2001
These are, don't forget, people who are only slightly less deranged than, and fuel the madness of, the sort of people who bombed the Oklahoma federal building, or who bomb abortion clinics.
posted by talos at 5:29 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by talos at 5:29 AM on September 14, 2001
I wonder just how many of Falwell's and Robertson's supporters are going to maybe, just maybe, think twice at agreeing with all this.
posted by dopamine at 5:30 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by dopamine at 5:30 AM on September 14, 2001
I posted this on a earlier thread, same topic -but I wanted to repeat it here..
"As the token Christian on the board(or at least one of them) this is my take:
For years this nation has enjoyed a special protection from God.....the Christians in this nation have let their guard down, we have neglected to pray for our leaders as we have been commanded to do, we have been more interested at pointing the finger at everyone else and at each other than praying for people, caring for the"widows and orphans".... yes it is true that this is a very sinful nation, but the blame for that is laid at our feet, not yours.
I could go on....to make a long story short the Lord has allowed our special protection to be lifted....the question now is will we Christians get off our duffs, on our knees, seek His face, repent, and pray for this nation?
I am aware that many on this board will not understand what I have written...but do know that this tragedy originated in the mind of Satan, not the heart of God."
posted by bunnyfire at 5:34 AM on September 14, 2001
"As the token Christian on the board(or at least one of them) this is my take:
For years this nation has enjoyed a special protection from God.....the Christians in this nation have let their guard down, we have neglected to pray for our leaders as we have been commanded to do, we have been more interested at pointing the finger at everyone else and at each other than praying for people, caring for the"widows and orphans".... yes it is true that this is a very sinful nation, but the blame for that is laid at our feet, not yours.
I could go on....to make a long story short the Lord has allowed our special protection to be lifted....the question now is will we Christians get off our duffs, on our knees, seek His face, repent, and pray for this nation?
I am aware that many on this board will not understand what I have written...but do know that this tragedy originated in the mind of Satan, not the heart of God."
posted by bunnyfire at 5:34 AM on September 14, 2001
For everyone's sake, dopamine, I hope alot of them. It's disheartening that people like this have such a large voice in our world.
posted by lizardboy at 5:35 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by lizardboy at 5:35 AM on September 14, 2001
If Falwell says that America is targeted because of what he considers moral lassitude, listing specific groups, and Osama bin Laden issues a fatwa against all Americans because of what he considers moral lassitude, listing the same specific groups, then isn't Falwell saying "I agree with Osama bin Laden, the USA deserves terrorist attacks [because it is a free country]?"
Falwell's comments in support of fundamentalist terrorism are the greatest outrage (aside from the act itself) to come out of the WTC and Pentagon attacks. He is the worst kind of traitor and coward, and should be ridden out of the country on a rail.
posted by dfowler at 5:39 AM on September 14, 2001
Falwell's comments in support of fundamentalist terrorism are the greatest outrage (aside from the act itself) to come out of the WTC and Pentagon attacks. He is the worst kind of traitor and coward, and should be ridden out of the country on a rail.
posted by dfowler at 5:39 AM on September 14, 2001
His supporters are all too willing to agree with this. I am too. It is not a new issue. Sin caused this. It was the source. If you think this was bad, read the Old Testament. God does indeed have ways of bringing about repentance of sinful people. And by all means, is New York a godly state? Is America a godly country?
Why do I surmise that this is the will of God, that so many people would die? I don't think God caused this to happen, I think God let it happen. Sin is a judgement unto itself. Evil has a way of destruction.
And the evidence of evil... the fruits of evil actions have a way of opening our eyes: there is indeed a Right and a Wrong, which exists external to our perspective, even independent from our sociology and religion.
posted by aaronshaf at 5:40 AM on September 14, 2001
Why do I surmise that this is the will of God, that so many people would die? I don't think God caused this to happen, I think God let it happen. Sin is a judgement unto itself. Evil has a way of destruction.
And the evidence of evil... the fruits of evil actions have a way of opening our eyes: there is indeed a Right and a Wrong, which exists external to our perspective, even independent from our sociology and religion.
posted by aaronshaf at 5:40 AM on September 14, 2001
CNN (tv, not web site yet) says that he's given an apology of sorts. Yeah, yeah, sure, sure...
posted by metrocake at 5:41 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by metrocake at 5:41 AM on September 14, 2001
I am aware that many on this board will not understand what I have written...
Please do not confuse disagreement with an inability to understand. I won't try and refute any religious arguments presented here -- but to those who conclude that we have been punished, or simply that we are no longer favored, please read some Kierkegaard. If you have, I apologize for my assumption.
posted by j.edwards at 5:54 AM on September 14, 2001
Please do not confuse disagreement with an inability to understand. I won't try and refute any religious arguments presented here -- but to those who conclude that we have been punished, or simply that we are no longer favored, please read some Kierkegaard. If you have, I apologize for my assumption.
posted by j.edwards at 5:54 AM on September 14, 2001
organized religion is so hateful. it mascarades as love and acceptance but in reality... it is just organized hate.
these are YOUR LEADERS. this is what they preach. you can try and seperate them and call them extremists but they obviously aren't or else they wouldn't be in the positions they are in.
religion has a way of justifying things to further exclude people and promote it's own agenda - it is sickening.
onward lemmings!
posted by ggggarret at 5:54 AM on September 14, 2001
these are YOUR LEADERS. this is what they preach. you can try and seperate them and call them extremists but they obviously aren't or else they wouldn't be in the positions they are in.
religion has a way of justifying things to further exclude people and promote it's own agenda - it is sickening.
onward lemmings!
posted by ggggarret at 5:54 AM on September 14, 2001
For years this nation has enjoyed a special protection from God ...
No offense intended, bunnyfire, but I think a big part of this problem is people who think they have God in their corner. Would those suicide bombers have killed themselves if they weren't made to believe they would be richly rewarded in the afterlife?
posted by rcade at 5:58 AM on September 14, 2001
No offense intended, bunnyfire, but I think a big part of this problem is people who think they have God in their corner. Would those suicide bombers have killed themselves if they weren't made to believe they would be richly rewarded in the afterlife?
posted by rcade at 5:58 AM on September 14, 2001
these are YOUR LEADERS.
I think I speak for a large segment of Christians (if not a vast majority) when I say Jerry Fallwell is not my leader.
Please don't lump me in with this man. I don't appreciate it any more than most Muslims appreciate being lumped in with Osama bin Laden.
posted by ratbastard at 5:59 AM on September 14, 2001
I think I speak for a large segment of Christians (if not a vast majority) when I say Jerry Fallwell is not my leader.
Please don't lump me in with this man. I don't appreciate it any more than most Muslims appreciate being lumped in with Osama bin Laden.
posted by ratbastard at 5:59 AM on September 14, 2001
And yes, ggggarret , you may infer from my post that I am a Christian. You think that automatically makes me a lemming? Now who's a bigot?
posted by ratbastard at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by ratbastard at 6:01 AM on September 14, 2001
Faith-based arguement about why we are being punished (those who died and their loved ones) by a faith-based Nut case from Arab world. Is there no end of assholes?
posted by Postroad at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by Postroad at 6:02 AM on September 14, 2001
People did this, their faith may have played a part, but the responsibility lies with human beings. Invoking spiritual belief masks the fact that it was a human hand that put this into motion.
posted by jackspot at 6:06 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by jackspot at 6:06 AM on September 14, 2001
I am surprised that people like Fallwell and Robertson can be so callus at a time like this. I'm also surprised that people like F and R, who seem to have some understanding of the power of the media (even though they use it in ways antithetical to my thoughts) could make public comments such as these.
Fundamentalist extremism seems to be our real enemy!
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 6:08 AM on September 14, 2001
Fundamentalist extremism seems to be our real enemy!
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 6:08 AM on September 14, 2001
I could not agree more about extremism being the enemy. The people who perpetrated this monstrous assault did it in the name of the EXACT SAME GOD many Christians are all now invoking. If you believe that they were wrong, how can you not even consider the possibility that you might be as well? Faith, I guess. The terrorists also had faith.
posted by Sinner at 6:13 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by Sinner at 6:13 AM on September 14, 2001
these are YOUR LEADERS
No, these are people who've managed to get themselves on TV. They've not been elected or appointed leaders of any group of Christians larger than a church or a small college.
This book is one of several works by sociologists that demonstrate that Falwell and Robertson's views are not representative of most self-identified Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, much less Christians of a less conservative stripe.
posted by straight at 6:15 AM on September 14, 2001
No, these are people who've managed to get themselves on TV. They've not been elected or appointed leaders of any group of Christians larger than a church or a small college.
This book is one of several works by sociologists that demonstrate that Falwell and Robertson's views are not representative of most self-identified Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, much less Christians of a less conservative stripe.
posted by straight at 6:15 AM on September 14, 2001
[If you believe that they were wrong, how can you not even consider the possibility that you might be as well? ]
It could be because their religion states taking innocent lives is a sin and they did it anyway. They weren't following the tenets of their religion so their religion really doesn't enter into it does it?
Fundamentalist athiests are just as annoying as Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.
posted by revbrian at 6:20 AM on September 14, 2001
It could be because their religion states taking innocent lives is a sin and they did it anyway. They weren't following the tenets of their religion so their religion really doesn't enter into it does it?
Fundamentalist athiests are just as annoying as Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.
posted by revbrian at 6:20 AM on September 14, 2001
These are the homeborn terrorists that we should be interring in camps...there is NO excuse for this sort of blind hatred and intolerance. What kind of mind-numb, utter losers follow and support these heaps of excrement, and give credence to their saliva-spattered blitherings?
Aaronshaf, you are a fool. The world does not work according to your wicked and simplistic little model. I'm sure it's far too late for you to wake up and educate yourself to the realities of life, but I'll be damned (ha, ha) if I will let you inject your childish and hateful hogwash into a forum of thoughtful, rational people without pointing out that spewers of nonsense are not appropriate and do not belong here. Try and rationalize it any way you like, you are just a hatemonger. Your "faith" teaches you that you are an evil, fallen creature that must look to a miracle to redeem you...I agree with the first half of the premise. Self-fulfilling prophecy, I guess.
posted by rushmc at 6:20 AM on September 14, 2001
Aaronshaf, you are a fool. The world does not work according to your wicked and simplistic little model. I'm sure it's far too late for you to wake up and educate yourself to the realities of life, but I'll be damned (ha, ha) if I will let you inject your childish and hateful hogwash into a forum of thoughtful, rational people without pointing out that spewers of nonsense are not appropriate and do not belong here. Try and rationalize it any way you like, you are just a hatemonger. Your "faith" teaches you that you are an evil, fallen creature that must look to a miracle to redeem you...I agree with the first half of the premise. Self-fulfilling prophecy, I guess.
posted by rushmc at 6:20 AM on September 14, 2001
But now we've got weapons of the chemical dust
If fire them we're forced to, then fire them we must
One push of the button and a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions with God on your side
- Bob Dylan
posted by aladfar at 6:22 AM on September 14, 2001
If fire them we're forced to, then fire them we must
One push of the button and a shot the world wide
And you never ask questions with God on your side
- Bob Dylan
posted by aladfar at 6:22 AM on September 14, 2001
ratbastard - no. i don't think being a christian makes you a lemming, i think following people like fallwell and robertson makes people lemmings. they must have huge followings and i would think most of their people agree with most anything they say or else they would have been insulted long ago. these guys claim to have some kind of communication with god and use that to control people and further their personal agendas. they are the bin ladens of america and ultimately what they preach is hate... very loving and christian of them, don't you think?
christianity has given more people a reason to hate others than anything else i can think of... example.
religion is very absolute and exclusive and seperates everything into categories of 'right' and 'wrong', 'good' and 'evil'... all in support of a big heap of superstitious assumptions.
posted by ggggarret at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2001
christianity has given more people a reason to hate others than anything else i can think of... example.
religion is very absolute and exclusive and seperates everything into categories of 'right' and 'wrong', 'good' and 'evil'... all in support of a big heap of superstitious assumptions.
posted by ggggarret at 6:25 AM on September 14, 2001
All respect to Revbrian, but religion is brain poison. What name you give your bloodthirsty imaginary magical being matters little.
posted by UncleFes at 6:35 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by UncleFes at 6:35 AM on September 14, 2001
I like the Pope and the Dalai Llama.
Robertson and Falwell might do better if they talk to non-700 Club people a bit more instead of giving hate mongering proclamations. If I recall Jesus liked to hang out with the sinners......unless Falwell and Robertson think they are already hanging out with the sinners.....
posted by Dagobert at 6:36 AM on September 14, 2001
Robertson and Falwell might do better if they talk to non-700 Club people a bit more instead of giving hate mongering proclamations. If I recall Jesus liked to hang out with the sinners......unless Falwell and Robertson think they are already hanging out with the sinners.....
posted by Dagobert at 6:36 AM on September 14, 2001
Job 13:7-10
Will you speak wickedly on God's behalf? Will you speak deceitfully for him?
Will you show him partiality? Will you argue the case for God?
Would it turn out well if he examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men?
He would surely rebuke you if you secretly showed partiality.
Straight from the O.T.
Vaca
posted by vaca at 6:36 AM on September 14, 2001
Will you speak wickedly on God's behalf? Will you speak deceitfully for him?
Will you show him partiality? Will you argue the case for God?
Would it turn out well if he examined you? Could you deceive him as you might deceive men?
He would surely rebuke you if you secretly showed partiality.
Straight from the O.T.
Vaca
posted by vaca at 6:36 AM on September 14, 2001
they are the bin ladens of america
I agree, ggggarret. Religion is a human institution. And like any human institution it can (and will) be abused by those who stand to gain from it. Falwell, Robertson, and bin Laden are prime examples.
It's regrettable that so many people believe that these hucksters and demagogues are representative of Christians and Muslims on the whole.
posted by ratbastard at 6:37 AM on September 14, 2001
I agree, ggggarret. Religion is a human institution. And like any human institution it can (and will) be abused by those who stand to gain from it. Falwell, Robertson, and bin Laden are prime examples.
It's regrettable that so many people believe that these hucksters and demagogues are representative of Christians and Muslims on the whole.
posted by ratbastard at 6:37 AM on September 14, 2001
I've been a Christian for about 33 years now. I was raised in a Christian home, my father is still a Southern Baptist preacher. The Christian mindset in America tends to be one where everything that happens in the world MUST have a spiritual explanation. Either God caused it, or he allowed it, or he allowed Satan to do it. There are endless spirals of confusing scenarios but those are the basics.
This mindset is part of what I see as a 'bi-polar' theology. On one hand, when evil men do evil things preachers open the Old Testament and recite passages regarding fire and 'brimstone' (i.e., something akin to volcanic eruptions) and judgement. On the other hand, when GOOD men do evil things (like have an affair) preachers tend to open up the New Testament and recite passages regarding not casting the first stone and forgiveness. The problem is that sometimes things just happen, and it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with God's protection or lack thereof, nor does it necessarily involve Satan. Islamic extremists hate the U.S. but just because they read the Koran and invoke the name of Allah doesn't mean they aren't hypocrites themselves. That's why they spent some of their last evenings in strip clubs paying for lap dances.
And I must agree with 'jackspot' -- to look for spiritual answers tends to absolve the humans involved. After all if the 'devil made them do it' then it isn't really their fault, is it?
posted by webwide at 6:37 AM on September 14, 2001
We should be praying to God to relieve our suffering, comfort the injured, and change the hearts of those who directed the bombings. God did not sanction these attacks. For Falwell to equate murder to just punishment shows how twisted his hatred is for gays, feminists and atheists. What ever happened to love the sinner but hate the sin?
posted by DK-ATL at 6:43 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by DK-ATL at 6:43 AM on September 14, 2001
these are YOUR LEADERS.
I know Americans have short-term memory, but this is ridiculous even by our standards. Judging from what I’m seeing on this post it has only taken us all of three days to forget this nation is being threatened by external forces. Now we’ve turned on each other and the petty bickering has started amongst ourselves again.
Some unity dudes. =-(
posted by david1016 at 6:51 AM on September 14, 2001
I know Americans have short-term memory, but this is ridiculous even by our standards. Judging from what I’m seeing on this post it has only taken us all of three days to forget this nation is being threatened by external forces. Now we’ve turned on each other and the petty bickering has started amongst ourselves again.
Some unity dudes. =-(
posted by david1016 at 6:51 AM on September 14, 2001
Allah Had No Son. Chicks publications, at their best. Er, worst. (Published 1994).
posted by adampsyche at 6:54 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by adampsyche at 6:54 AM on September 14, 2001
terrible. this is just terrible.
I doubt if a political terrorist group with an agenda to rid the world of Western Influence decided to bomb us based upon how many homosexuals we had in this country.
It's time we started looking at people like Falwell and Robertson as possible enemies of our country, not our people's spiritual leaders. Making a statement like that in a time of crisis such as this, I would not be surprised if hate crimes against homosexuals tripled in the next few days.
If so, would they be held responsible for prevoking the attack? Of course not, they're just quoting scripture.
posted by bradth27 at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2001
I doubt if a political terrorist group with an agenda to rid the world of Western Influence decided to bomb us based upon how many homosexuals we had in this country.
It's time we started looking at people like Falwell and Robertson as possible enemies of our country, not our people's spiritual leaders. Making a statement like that in a time of crisis such as this, I would not be surprised if hate crimes against homosexuals tripled in the next few days.
If so, would they be held responsible for prevoking the attack? Of course not, they're just quoting scripture.
posted by bradth27 at 7:02 AM on September 14, 2001
Y'all missed the point of my post entirely........but I can agree that American Christianity has needed a cold slap in the face for a long time... I am truly horrified and sick to my stomach to see what it has taken for us rank-and -file American Christians to wake up.....
here i should insert the disclaimer that not everyone that quacks is a duck, if you get my drift....
So many of us Christians have stayed in our neat-and-tidy little subcultures and we do not have a stinking clue how we seem to the rest of you- and many times we have played the Pharisee and not the Samaritan.....how we have truly grieved the Lord we have claimed to serve....
I will say this too at the risk of really getting flamed-my heart hurts for those poor deluded souls who thought they were getting their one way ticket to Paradise by carrying out these attacks of terrorism.....they were pawns in an ultimate game that they only now understand .....I hate and detest what they did because it was hateful and it was detestable and there are no words to really describe how evil it was-but I cannot hate these men....Justice belongs to the Lord and I will leave that at His feet where it belongs. Our energies need to go to the living....
posted by bunnyfire at 7:06 AM on September 14, 2001
here i should insert the disclaimer that not everyone that quacks is a duck, if you get my drift....
So many of us Christians have stayed in our neat-and-tidy little subcultures and we do not have a stinking clue how we seem to the rest of you- and many times we have played the Pharisee and not the Samaritan.....how we have truly grieved the Lord we have claimed to serve....
I will say this too at the risk of really getting flamed-my heart hurts for those poor deluded souls who thought they were getting their one way ticket to Paradise by carrying out these attacks of terrorism.....they were pawns in an ultimate game that they only now understand .....I hate and detest what they did because it was hateful and it was detestable and there are no words to really describe how evil it was-but I cannot hate these men....Justice belongs to the Lord and I will leave that at His feet where it belongs. Our energies need to go to the living....
posted by bunnyfire at 7:06 AM on September 14, 2001
Statements like that from our "Christian " leaders make me sick. God loves and cares about every person on this earth. This tragedy hurts people everywhere. The extremists like Falwell just keep fueling the bigotry and hatred.
posted by redhead at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by redhead at 7:08 AM on September 14, 2001
It could be because their religion states taking innocent lives is a sin and they did it anyway. They weren't following the tenets of their religion so their religion really doesn't enter into it does it?
Oh come on. Do you think that any of these terrorists thought that the people they were killing were innocent? There wasn't a doubt in any of the terrorist's minds that what they were doing would be rewarded by Allah. Religion not only enters into it, it's the driving force behind their actions.
posted by briandame at 7:09 AM on September 14, 2001
Oh come on. Do you think that any of these terrorists thought that the people they were killing were innocent? There wasn't a doubt in any of the terrorist's minds that what they were doing would be rewarded by Allah. Religion not only enters into it, it's the driving force behind their actions.
posted by briandame at 7:09 AM on September 14, 2001
david1016 - i think everyone here is well aware of what is going on right now. do you suggest we do nothing but talk about it and only it? isn't one peter jennings enough? there are still other issues and other supporting issues that are worthy of discussion. it is only through discussion that we will better understand our views as well as others, which in the end will help us to understand what motivates people to do things... like attack the states. i have read comments like yours many times throughout many posts in the last couple days and i don't understand the point of them.
by saying 'YOUR LEADERS' i am referring to the leaders of the christian sects... who are only leaders b/c they have followers. someone supports these guys, maybe even some of you... but not me b/c i'm not christian so i thought 'your' helped to clarify my stance.
posted by ggggarret at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2001
by saying 'YOUR LEADERS' i am referring to the leaders of the christian sects... who are only leaders b/c they have followers. someone supports these guys, maybe even some of you... but not me b/c i'm not christian so i thought 'your' helped to clarify my stance.
posted by ggggarret at 7:15 AM on September 14, 2001
Fundamentalist athiests are just as annoying as Fundamentalist Christians and Muslims.
...and the last terrorist act by agnostic fundamentalists was when?
posted by normy at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2001
...and the last terrorist act by agnostic fundamentalists was when?
posted by normy at 7:24 AM on September 14, 2001
nytimes just reported on this, and the ACLU said, "We are not are not dignifying it with a response."
posted by moth at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by moth at 7:25 AM on September 14, 2001
Oh come on. Do you think that any of these terrorists thought that the people they were killing were innocent? There wasn't a doubt in any of the terrorist's minds that what they were doing would be rewarded by Allah. Religion not only enters into it, it's the driving force behind their actions.
i don't believe this at all. do i have to even say that devout muslims are as repulsed by this crime, even more so, than your average agnostic american? i think these men committed these crimes out of hate, not faith. their professed beliefs just gave them an excuse to give into hatred, just as falwell confuses his own faith with his baser, ignoble impulses. In their hearts, they knew they were killing innocents. For men like that, this is part of the trill.
posted by moth at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2001
i don't believe this at all. do i have to even say that devout muslims are as repulsed by this crime, even more so, than your average agnostic american? i think these men committed these crimes out of hate, not faith. their professed beliefs just gave them an excuse to give into hatred, just as falwell confuses his own faith with his baser, ignoble impulses. In their hearts, they knew they were killing innocents. For men like that, this is part of the trill.
posted by moth at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2001
[...and the last terrorist act by agnostic fundamentalists was when?]
What the hell does that have to do with it. I said annoying, not dangerous. If it's danger then we can rule out the fundie christians as well.
posted by revbrian at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2001
What the hell does that have to do with it. I said annoying, not dangerous. If it's danger then we can rule out the fundie christians as well.
posted by revbrian at 7:31 AM on September 14, 2001
Isn't Christ quoted as saying something like "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's"? I have always taken that as an affirmation of the principle of separation of church and state, which I have always believed to be the fundamental reason for America's greatness.
I honor the religious belief's of everyone, but I don't think that they're a good basis for running a country, nor are they an excuse for hurting other people. If you're going to say that God has allowed a special protection to slip from us because we've gotten sinful, then you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. Did God also allow buildings to collapse on firefighters who had gone inside to save people?
I'm reminded of a story of a well-known Unitarian minister who was talking to the mother of a survivor of a ship that was sunk during a war-time attack. She said that her child had been spared because she had prayed so hard for him. The minister (somewhat unsympathetically, I must say) said "Surely you don't believe that God allowed those other men to die because their mothers were not sufficiently pious?"
This is not the work of God or the Devil. It's the work of evil, misguided people. And it's nearly as evil and misguided to suggest that I'm to blame because God is mad at me for being gay.
One of the things that bothers me about the religious right's response to this mess is their total abandonment of the teachings of Christ. They seem to be relying entirely on Old Testament fire and brimstone. Christ was not a person who favored violent responses. Does anyone remember the Sermon on the Mount? Love your enemy, turn the other cheek, etc. As far as I remember, Christ's most violent episode was when he turned the money changers out of the temple. I guess if you're Falwell and Robinson and you use your religion to do a lot of fundraising and enrich yourself, you probably wouldn't want to mention that little item.
I'm not saying that turning the other cheek is an appropriate response here, but if you're a Christian and you're going to have your policy dictated by your religion, then you ought to follow the teachings of Christ. Or you ought to apply the teachings of Christ to your personal, religious life, and leave public policy outside the realm of religion.
posted by anapestic at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2001
I honor the religious belief's of everyone, but I don't think that they're a good basis for running a country, nor are they an excuse for hurting other people. If you're going to say that God has allowed a special protection to slip from us because we've gotten sinful, then you're going to have a lot of explaining to do. Did God also allow buildings to collapse on firefighters who had gone inside to save people?
I'm reminded of a story of a well-known Unitarian minister who was talking to the mother of a survivor of a ship that was sunk during a war-time attack. She said that her child had been spared because she had prayed so hard for him. The minister (somewhat unsympathetically, I must say) said "Surely you don't believe that God allowed those other men to die because their mothers were not sufficiently pious?"
This is not the work of God or the Devil. It's the work of evil, misguided people. And it's nearly as evil and misguided to suggest that I'm to blame because God is mad at me for being gay.
One of the things that bothers me about the religious right's response to this mess is their total abandonment of the teachings of Christ. They seem to be relying entirely on Old Testament fire and brimstone. Christ was not a person who favored violent responses. Does anyone remember the Sermon on the Mount? Love your enemy, turn the other cheek, etc. As far as I remember, Christ's most violent episode was when he turned the money changers out of the temple. I guess if you're Falwell and Robinson and you use your religion to do a lot of fundraising and enrich yourself, you probably wouldn't want to mention that little item.
I'm not saying that turning the other cheek is an appropriate response here, but if you're a Christian and you're going to have your policy dictated by your religion, then you ought to follow the teachings of Christ. Or you ought to apply the teachings of Christ to your personal, religious life, and leave public policy outside the realm of religion.
posted by anapestic at 7:38 AM on September 14, 2001
Jerry Falwell thinks that these attacks on America were because god wanted them to happen. He believes they are justified.
Osama Bin Laded that these attacks on America were because alla wanted them to happen. He believes they are justified.
Maybe that will clear it up for you. Extremists are extremists. Falwell is a Bin Laden himself.
Oh, and Jerry, a gay rugby player helped take back the plane that crashed in Pensylvania. He saved almost as many lives as you would like to take.
posted by untuckedshirts at 7:39 AM on September 14, 2001
Osama Bin Laded that these attacks on America were because alla wanted them to happen. He believes they are justified.
Maybe that will clear it up for you. Extremists are extremists. Falwell is a Bin Laden himself.
Oh, and Jerry, a gay rugby player helped take back the plane that crashed in Pensylvania. He saved almost as many lives as you would like to take.
posted by untuckedshirts at 7:39 AM on September 14, 2001
This may be received poorly but... damn shame both of them weren't somewhere in the WTC. Or better, damn shame both of them weren't in the WTC after the attack and both of them had their lives saved by gay firemen.
posted by underdog at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by underdog at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2001
The only true leader of Christians is Christ and his teachings. I think real faith is only achieved when you take out the middleman, because the part of religion that is [potentially] rotten is the human component. It has been pointed out time and again that humanity has twisted the Word of God into a cruel instrument of terror and war to serve their own selfish purposes. Disgusting and sad, but reality nonetheless.
I'm not a big fan of the O.T. I do not believe in a vengeful God. I believe in a loving God capable of eternal forgiveness, one who would send His only Son to teach us to love one another. That was Christ's fundamental message. None of this "my Father hates fags" or "wipe out the non-believers in my name" crap. Just "love each other as I have loved you." Period.
That being said, I think that if anyone has given God a reason to be mad, it's these deluded false mouthpieces of a God who has already demonstrated his love for tax collectors and prostitites as well as those who deem themselves to be God-fearing Christians.
posted by brigita at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2001
I'm not a big fan of the O.T. I do not believe in a vengeful God. I believe in a loving God capable of eternal forgiveness, one who would send His only Son to teach us to love one another. That was Christ's fundamental message. None of this "my Father hates fags" or "wipe out the non-believers in my name" crap. Just "love each other as I have loved you." Period.
That being said, I think that if anyone has given God a reason to be mad, it's these deluded false mouthpieces of a God who has already demonstrated his love for tax collectors and prostitites as well as those who deem themselves to be God-fearing Christians.
posted by brigita at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2001
RevBrian: The fact that they did not commit a terrorist act is merely to indicate the lack of parallels in the argument that they are similar to other fundamentalist groups. And we can't rule out the "fundie" (haven't heard that one before) christians, because the statements that this thread is addressing specifically encourage hate, a common precursor to violence. Perhaps "fundie" agnostics and atheists can be aggressive in their anti-religious sentiment, but they have yet to single out a specific ethnic or even religious group for their antagonism.
posted by j.edwards at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by j.edwards at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2001
Someone had mentioned a grassroots campaign to assist Arab-Americans and American Muslims at this time when they feel most vulnerable.
I had been thinking precisely about something like this all day yesterday. As a Pagan, I envisioned something that could unite the amazingly diverse Pagan community across our nation (and around the world) to expose this irrational religious and racial bigotry and to help others in our own community who are being singled out because of their ethnicity (or even apparent ethnicity) or religious beliefs. An effort that would show our nation and the world the value of religious understanding and tolerance.
I wrote a letter and sent it out to as many prominent organizations, publications, and friends in the Pagan community in an effort to build some enthusiasm for an effort such as this. The letter may be a bit "rough", but I was writing on heavy emotion, especially after learning that Robertson and Falwell were now including me, as well as my friends in the pagan, LGBT, and feminist communities, in their list of "enemies of the state".
I know this thread had been pretty much "discussed-out" so I hope it's still getting a read or two. I don't want to post this on the main board out of fear of being accused of self-promotion. If this interests you in the least, please write me.
While I have a dream of a Pagan humanitarian organization that could really make a difference in this world, I am certainly not seeking to limit such an effort to people in the Pagan community.
PS: Please feel free to save the image below to your server and use it as you wish. It is just something that I threw together last night to put on my own page. I'll design a few more soon.
posted by tpoh.org at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2001
I had been thinking precisely about something like this all day yesterday. As a Pagan, I envisioned something that could unite the amazingly diverse Pagan community across our nation (and around the world) to expose this irrational religious and racial bigotry and to help others in our own community who are being singled out because of their ethnicity (or even apparent ethnicity) or religious beliefs. An effort that would show our nation and the world the value of religious understanding and tolerance.
I wrote a letter and sent it out to as many prominent organizations, publications, and friends in the Pagan community in an effort to build some enthusiasm for an effort such as this. The letter may be a bit "rough", but I was writing on heavy emotion, especially after learning that Robertson and Falwell were now including me, as well as my friends in the pagan, LGBT, and feminist communities, in their list of "enemies of the state".
I know this thread had been pretty much "discussed-out" so I hope it's still getting a read or two. I don't want to post this on the main board out of fear of being accused of self-promotion. If this interests you in the least, please write me.
While I have a dream of a Pagan humanitarian organization that could really make a difference in this world, I am certainly not seeking to limit such an effort to people in the Pagan community.
PS: Please feel free to save the image below to your server and use it as you wish. It is just something that I threw together last night to put on my own page. I'll design a few more soon.
posted by tpoh.org at 7:43 AM on September 14, 2001
I suggest that everyone who is offended by this total lack of compassion and common sense write to Mr. Falwell to express your disgust - jerry@falwell.com. Here is my letter:
Bravo!...on proving that you are just as hateful and vicious as the terrorists who massacred our friends and family. Never before have I seen a person so much in the public eye use a tragedy such as this for his own personal agenda. In a time when we need to stand together as a country, you deem it appropriate to foment more hate and division? By blaming this attack on the moral lassitude of our people, the same moral lassitude that fundamentalist zealots such as bin Laden condemn, you seem to be saying that terrorist attacks on our nation are justified! It seems to me that that makes you a terrorist sympathizer; perhaps the government should arrest you for questioning? As has probably been written countless times to you today, no amount of apologizing can take back what you have said. You have behaved in a most un-Christian manner, and I hope you sincerely rethink your position in the moral and spiritual arena of this country.
Thanks to dfowler for the "moral lassitude" bit!
posted by starvingartist at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2001
Bravo!...on proving that you are just as hateful and vicious as the terrorists who massacred our friends and family. Never before have I seen a person so much in the public eye use a tragedy such as this for his own personal agenda. In a time when we need to stand together as a country, you deem it appropriate to foment more hate and division? By blaming this attack on the moral lassitude of our people, the same moral lassitude that fundamentalist zealots such as bin Laden condemn, you seem to be saying that terrorist attacks on our nation are justified! It seems to me that that makes you a terrorist sympathizer; perhaps the government should arrest you for questioning? As has probably been written countless times to you today, no amount of apologizing can take back what you have said. You have behaved in a most un-Christian manner, and I hope you sincerely rethink your position in the moral and spiritual arena of this country.
Thanks to dfowler for the "moral lassitude" bit!
posted by starvingartist at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2001
gggarrett
One of the things I like about this web site as opposed to many others is that (usually) the rhetoric is intelligent and diverse WITHOUT most participants resorting to name-calling.
One of the posts earlier in the week addressed the fact that this is a nation who’s people become obsessed with minutia such as the age of a little league pitcher and the revealing gown of a starlet at an awards ceremony.
It seems to me that Pat Robertson’s comments are part of the minutia right now. You call Pat a leader. I call him a television personality. Pat could call for a Holy War and ask Christians to strike back at Islamic fundamentalists. Do you really think he’d muster up an army ready to launch suicide attacks?
I agree with you that:
only through discussion that we will better understand our views as well as others, which in the end will help us to understand what motivates people to do things.
I guess I’m just questioning if listening Jerry and Pat is going to give us much insight into the views we seek.
posted by david1016 at 7:51 AM on September 14, 2001
One of the things I like about this web site as opposed to many others is that (usually) the rhetoric is intelligent and diverse WITHOUT most participants resorting to name-calling.
One of the posts earlier in the week addressed the fact that this is a nation who’s people become obsessed with minutia such as the age of a little league pitcher and the revealing gown of a starlet at an awards ceremony.
It seems to me that Pat Robertson’s comments are part of the minutia right now. You call Pat a leader. I call him a television personality. Pat could call for a Holy War and ask Christians to strike back at Islamic fundamentalists. Do you really think he’d muster up an army ready to launch suicide attacks?
I agree with you that:
only through discussion that we will better understand our views as well as others, which in the end will help us to understand what motivates people to do things.
I guess I’m just questioning if listening Jerry and Pat is going to give us much insight into the views we seek.
posted by david1016 at 7:51 AM on September 14, 2001
Just "love each other as I have loved you." Period.
Amen to that one, Sister!
posted by themikeb at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2001
Amen to that one, Sister!
posted by themikeb at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2001
As a Christian, I find Fallwell to border on evil with the way he misconstrues Jesus' message.
But I this is so horrific an event I think we need to forgive even Fallwell after his apology. People do things they normally would not do when they are scared to death.
Lots of Americans are striking out in odd directions. Eventually we will all be able to focus on the true enemy.
posted by username at 8:14 AM on September 14, 2001
But I this is so horrific an event I think we need to forgive even Fallwell after his apology. People do things they normally would not do when they are scared to death.
Lots of Americans are striking out in odd directions. Eventually we will all be able to focus on the true enemy.
posted by username at 8:14 AM on September 14, 2001
i can't imagine that anyone would follow those guys anywhere but they have enough support to suggest otherwise. it scares me to think that at least a portion of their followers do agree with them and could act on statements that he makes. we have already seen reports of people acting out against muslims around the country and at that point no one had even made statements like jerry's. many people are just waiting for an excuse to do something stupid so they can feel better about themselves and if people are on tv blaming gays, pagans and atheists for the terrorist attacks, you can bet at least one person stood up in their living room and waved their fist in support and the next unfortunate 'sinner' to cross his path might end up in a less than desireable position. these people are promoting violence as a solution - the same thing they preach against. i think listening and talking about these remarks are important b/c it shows how a small group of people, looking somewhere for guidance, and finding it in a person, can lead to some major problems. he is the very thing we are fighting against now, but he hides behind the veil of christianity (which makes it not so evil) and speaks out against people who are already discriminated against and on issues that cross boundaries for support from less extreme groups.
posted by ggggarret at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by ggggarret at 8:26 AM on September 14, 2001
Here's some info on the apology.
I am underwhelmed.
posted by anapestic at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2001
I am underwhelmed.
posted by anapestic at 8:42 AM on September 14, 2001
what a hypocrite. he totally lied about his own remarks. i can't wait to go to hell so i can kick his ass.
posted by ggggarret at 8:49 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by ggggarret at 8:49 AM on September 14, 2001
Religion not only enters into it, it's the driving force behind their actions.
No, their skewed representation of their religion is the driving force behind their actions. But just as the written and accepted teachings of Islam condemn acts of violence, the teachings of Christianity do not align with the comments Falwell and Robertson have made. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing, no matter if the wool bears a cross or a crescent.
These people represent only their own agenda, that they pretend to have the support of religious institutions even as their actions are in direct contradiction to the fundamental premises of those institutions only serves to further demonstrate their own intellectual and spiritual bankruptcy.
posted by Dreama at 8:58 AM on September 14, 2001
No, their skewed representation of their religion is the driving force behind their actions. But just as the written and accepted teachings of Islam condemn acts of violence, the teachings of Christianity do not align with the comments Falwell and Robertson have made. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing, no matter if the wool bears a cross or a crescent.
These people represent only their own agenda, that they pretend to have the support of religious institutions even as their actions are in direct contradiction to the fundamental premises of those institutions only serves to further demonstrate their own intellectual and spiritual bankruptcy.
posted by Dreama at 8:58 AM on September 14, 2001
You're right, anapestic. Falwell's apology is lame. I retract my previous remarks as they apply to him. He's the same dogmatic hypocrite he has always been, God bless his poor nasty soul.
posted by username at 8:59 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by username at 8:59 AM on September 14, 2001
send a note to Pat Robertson. let him know just how you feel about his particularly nasty brand of hatred. (reposted from the duplicate thread above)
posted by 40 Watt at 9:15 AM on September 14, 2001
posted by 40 Watt at 9:15 AM on September 14, 2001
....to make a long story short the Lord has allowed our special protection to be lifted....
bunnyfire: Contrary to the belief of a rather large amount of Christians, Jesus is (was) neither American nor capitalist.
People, PLEASE go pick up a bible and read everything Jesus personally said before letting the likes of Falwell and BunnyFire skew your opinion of Christianity. PLEASE.
About the link: does this mean Falwell worships Allah now? I'm confused.
posted by glenwood at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2001
bunnyfire: Contrary to the belief of a rather large amount of Christians, Jesus is (was) neither American nor capitalist.
People, PLEASE go pick up a bible and read everything Jesus personally said before letting the likes of Falwell and BunnyFire skew your opinion of Christianity. PLEASE.
About the link: does this mean Falwell worships Allah now? I'm confused.
posted by glenwood at 9:44 AM on September 14, 2001
they are the bin ladens of america
I only wish that bin laden was just a goofy talking head.
posted by glenwood at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2001
I only wish that bin laden was just a goofy talking head.
posted by glenwood at 9:47 AM on September 14, 2001
Here is what I wrote to old Pat:
Mr. Robertson,
I hope you realize how many more people's hearts were darkened to the teachings of Jesus by your comments yesterday.
Perhaps it is time that you turned off the television camera for a few days and reaquainted yourself with the doctrine you are allegedly espousing.
posted by glenwood at 9:54 AM on September 14, 2001
Mr. Robertson,
I hope you realize how many more people's hearts were darkened to the teachings of Jesus by your comments yesterday.
Perhaps it is time that you turned off the television camera for a few days and reaquainted yourself with the doctrine you are allegedly espousing.
posted by glenwood at 9:54 AM on September 14, 2001
People, PLEASE go pick up a bible and read everything Jesus personally said before letting the likes of Falwell and BunnyFire skew your opinion of Christianity. PLEASE.
I'd like to, but nothing in the Bible was written by Jesus, or anyone who lived during the same time he did. And all of it has been re-written since those first biographers authored it.
Has a contemporary autobiography of Christ been found?
posted by anildash at 10:44 AM on September 14, 2001
I'd like to, but nothing in the Bible was written by Jesus, or anyone who lived during the same time he did. And all of it has been re-written since those first biographers authored it.
Has a contemporary autobiography of Christ been found?
posted by anildash at 10:44 AM on September 14, 2001
Has a contemporary autobiography of Christ been found?
Is it clear that Christ knew how to write?
In any case, there's been some interesting biblical scholarship attempting to determine/guess which of the words and actions attributed to Christ are most likely to have actually been his. I wish I could remember the source or find a link (I read it in the Unitarian Universalist monthly magazine a couple of years back). A group of theologians who have studied the gospels (official and unofficial) discussed all the evidence and then voted as to how certain they were that individual items were truly attributable to Christ. Not surprisingly, there was some difference of opinion, but they were able to reach agreement that some things were highly likely to be authentic whereas other things were almost certainly apocryphal. Many things fell in the middle.
posted by anapestic at 10:51 AM on September 14, 2001
Is it clear that Christ knew how to write?
In any case, there's been some interesting biblical scholarship attempting to determine/guess which of the words and actions attributed to Christ are most likely to have actually been his. I wish I could remember the source or find a link (I read it in the Unitarian Universalist monthly magazine a couple of years back). A group of theologians who have studied the gospels (official and unofficial) discussed all the evidence and then voted as to how certain they were that individual items were truly attributable to Christ. Not surprisingly, there was some difference of opinion, but they were able to reach agreement that some things were highly likely to be authentic whereas other things were almost certainly apocryphal. Many things fell in the middle.
posted by anapestic at 10:51 AM on September 14, 2001
I'd like to, but nothing in the Bible was written by Jesus
I said to read what he had said. Not what he had written.
posted by glenwood at 10:56 AM on September 14, 2001
I said to read what he had said. Not what he had written.
posted by glenwood at 10:56 AM on September 14, 2001
Get a "red letter" bible, the words atributed to Jesus cleared through the process anapestic mentioned are printed in red. Those words are powerful and truthful, regardless of your interest in religion. The rest you can use as back story if you like.
Me, I think we ought to put a 100 high wall around Jerusalem and give Bin Laden, Falwell and anyone else exspousing this kind of vitriolic evil crap a place to work out their frustrations.
I like ggggaret's suggestion about kicking his ass in Hell more than I probably should.
posted by jonnyp at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2001
Me, I think we ought to put a 100 high wall around Jerusalem and give Bin Laden, Falwell and anyone else exspousing this kind of vitriolic evil crap a place to work out their frustrations.
I like ggggaret's suggestion about kicking his ass in Hell more than I probably should.
posted by jonnyp at 11:50 AM on September 14, 2001
they are the bin ladens of america
I only wish that bin laden was just a goofy talking head.
-glenwood
I really wish that was all they were. My church recieved a bomb threat the weekend that a gay bar (a couple miles from my house) and an abortion clinic were bombed in Atlanta. Why? Because we allow openly gay members.
Hatred causes violence, not the other way around.
Deciding weather my belief that what we were doing was right was more important that the absolute safety of my family isn't a decision I took lightly. And it's a risk I had to take because of Falwell, Robertson and evil men like him. The saddest part is the perception on the part of many that they speak for other Christians.
posted by jonnyp at 11:57 AM on September 14, 2001
I only wish that bin laden was just a goofy talking head.
-glenwood
I really wish that was all they were. My church recieved a bomb threat the weekend that a gay bar (a couple miles from my house) and an abortion clinic were bombed in Atlanta. Why? Because we allow openly gay members.
Hatred causes violence, not the other way around.
Deciding weather my belief that what we were doing was right was more important that the absolute safety of my family isn't a decision I took lightly. And it's a risk I had to take because of Falwell, Robertson and evil men like him. The saddest part is the perception on the part of many that they speak for other Christians.
posted by jonnyp at 11:57 AM on September 14, 2001
Get a "red letter" bible, the words atributed to Jesus cleared through the process anapestic mentioned are printed in red.
Thanks, jonnyp - I was going under the assumption that everyone knew about this and quite possibly was mistaken...
I also would like to apologize for insinuating that Jerry Falwell and his ilk aren't dangerous. Wasn't my intent.
posted by glenwood at 12:19 PM on September 14, 2001
i can't wait to go to hell so i can kick his ass.
I said something very similar this morning. Your phrasing, however--much wittier.
posted by brittney at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2001
I said something very similar this morning. Your phrasing, however--much wittier.
posted by brittney at 12:40 PM on September 14, 2001
Oh well. At least this removes any possibility of Pat Robertson ever being elected president. You'll remember that he looked like a semi-serious candidate in a past election. These people may not represent very many christians but that doesn't mean that they aren't temendously influential. The 700 club is broadcast in a huge number of markets and brings in a lot of money. The scary part is that you don't have to be a follower of these people for these people anymore than you have to be a follower of Coca Cola for their commercials to influence your buying habits.
posted by rdr at 12:54 PM on September 14, 2001
posted by rdr at 12:54 PM on September 14, 2001
A red letter bible typically has the words that the gospels themselves claim were Jesus' words in red. That is a very different thing from what I was talking about. There may be red letter bibles that use the scholarship I was mentioning, but that scholarship was fairly recent and may be ongoing. You should carefully read the preface to a red letter bible before relying on it as reflecting current scholarly opinion.
posted by anapestic at 1:25 PM on September 14, 2001
posted by anapestic at 1:25 PM on September 14, 2001
Here's an additional article about Falwell and Robertson...
posted by valerie at 4:16 PM on September 14, 2001
posted by valerie at 4:16 PM on September 14, 2001
As usual, more crap from the "fundamentalist Christian" camp. Why is it that we even bother to listen to Falwell/Robertson and their ilk?
Man, this kind of crap continues to push me farther from my Catholic roots than it already is. Maybe Jesse Ventura had something when he said that religion was a crutch for weak minds (my recollection) - Falwell and Robertson have certainly shown that lately!
i can't wait to go to hell so i can kick his ass.
ggggarrett, mind if I join ya?
posted by PeteyStock at 4:19 PM on September 14, 2001
Man, this kind of crap continues to push me farther from my Catholic roots than it already is. Maybe Jesse Ventura had something when he said that religion was a crutch for weak minds (my recollection) - Falwell and Robertson have certainly shown that lately!
i can't wait to go to hell so i can kick his ass.
ggggarrett, mind if I join ya?
posted by PeteyStock at 4:19 PM on September 14, 2001
Me and Jerry Fallwell in the same sentence? I think I need to go lie down......
I do not believe Americans are"special". I believe that we THINK we are special. We have gotten away with that precisely because until now we have pretty much managed to avoid a lot of the suffering that much of the rest of the world has had to go through....that did not mean we were BETTER- that meant we were BLESSED. But of course this made us a bunch of prideful little snotty Ugly Americans.....
I do not apologise for stating what I believe is simply a fact.
This nation has had privilege after privilege, blessing after blessing.....
As far as innocent victims, no those firefighters and police officers did not deserve to die, of course they were heroes! But what our culture simply refuses to understand is that our actions are corporate.....we all reap the benefits of the blessings of technology for instance......tragedy is impersonal. It doesn't care if you deserve it or not.
As the Bible says, it rains on the just and the unjust......
And that BETTER be the last time I get compared to Jerry Falwell....I am a Charismatic, and he probably wouldn't appreciate it too much.......all kidding aside, can't we just let the man be human too? I know very few people (if any) who have totally correct opinions on every topic in perpetuity. I am sure that when I get to heaven I will get my kinks worked out as well.
Sheesh.
Bunnyfire
posted by bunnyfire at 5:00 PM on September 14, 2001
I do not believe Americans are"special". I believe that we THINK we are special. We have gotten away with that precisely because until now we have pretty much managed to avoid a lot of the suffering that much of the rest of the world has had to go through....that did not mean we were BETTER- that meant we were BLESSED. But of course this made us a bunch of prideful little snotty Ugly Americans.....
I do not apologise for stating what I believe is simply a fact.
This nation has had privilege after privilege, blessing after blessing.....
As far as innocent victims, no those firefighters and police officers did not deserve to die, of course they were heroes! But what our culture simply refuses to understand is that our actions are corporate.....we all reap the benefits of the blessings of technology for instance......tragedy is impersonal. It doesn't care if you deserve it or not.
As the Bible says, it rains on the just and the unjust......
And that BETTER be the last time I get compared to Jerry Falwell....I am a Charismatic, and he probably wouldn't appreciate it too much.......all kidding aside, can't we just let the man be human too? I know very few people (if any) who have totally correct opinions on every topic in perpetuity. I am sure that when I get to heaven I will get my kinks worked out as well.
Sheesh.
Bunnyfire
posted by bunnyfire at 5:00 PM on September 14, 2001
Someone up there said: "The Christian mindset in America tends to be one where everything that happens in the world MUST have a spiritual explanation. Either God caused it, or he allowed it, or he allowed Satan to do it."
Exactly.
Check this out. Falwell has more to say:
'He said he did not believe God "had anything to do with the tragedy," but that God had permitted it. "He lifted the curtain of protection," Mr. Falwell said, "and I believe that if America does not repent and return to a genuine faith and dependence on him, we may expect more tragedies, unfortunately."'
Right on.
There are two evils here: the terrorists and the US. The terrorists committed the crime, and the US was not protected by God because we are sinful.
I grieve as you do for the awful deaths. I would encourage all of you at this horrible time to re-think what Christians have to say, for much much more death and destruction is to come.
posted by aaronshaf at 5:29 PM on September 14, 2001
Exactly.
Check this out. Falwell has more to say:
'He said he did not believe God "had anything to do with the tragedy," but that God had permitted it. "He lifted the curtain of protection," Mr. Falwell said, "and I believe that if America does not repent and return to a genuine faith and dependence on him, we may expect more tragedies, unfortunately."'
Right on.
There are two evils here: the terrorists and the US. The terrorists committed the crime, and the US was not protected by God because we are sinful.
I grieve as you do for the awful deaths. I would encourage all of you at this horrible time to re-think what Christians have to say, for much much more death and destruction is to come.
posted by aaronshaf at 5:29 PM on September 14, 2001
"He lifted the curtain of protection," Mr. Falwell said, "and I believe that if America does not repent and return to a genuine faith and dependence on him, we may expect more tragedies, unfortunately."
All he needed to add was "If you send me money, I will pray you into heaven"
As I've stated before Jerry Falwell is a misguided idiot. IMOO.
posted by bjgeiger at 6:51 PM on September 14, 2001
All he needed to add was "If you send me money, I will pray you into heaven"
As I've stated before Jerry Falwell is a misguided idiot. IMOO.
posted by bjgeiger at 6:51 PM on September 14, 2001
So if you were God what would your opinion be?
Don't answer yet. Think about it.
posted by bunnyfire at 7:23 PM on September 14, 2001
Don't answer yet. Think about it.
posted by bunnyfire at 7:23 PM on September 14, 2001
I grieve as you do for the awful deaths. I would encourage all of you at this horrible time to re-think what Christians have to say, for much much more death and destruction is to come.
I can't wait to meet the christian who finally admits it's blind faith that got us into this mess.
posted by crasspastor at 7:41 PM on September 14, 2001
I can't wait to meet the christian who finally admits it's blind faith that got us into this mess.
posted by crasspastor at 7:41 PM on September 14, 2001
As I've stated before Jerry Falwell is a misguided idiot. IMOO.
And certainly far closer to the definition of "evil" than any of his favorite targets. He is a fool, he spews hate and nonsense and should be kept in the light only to see that he and his kind do nothing but talk and should be ignored beyond that. His venom is harmful to society and harmful to the religion he claims to be a part of.
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.” -Pat
That is such a gem. It is hard to take people like this seriously, even though I do realize they can be a legitimate threat to freedom.
posted by bargle at 7:49 PM on September 14, 2001
And certainly far closer to the definition of "evil" than any of his favorite targets. He is a fool, he spews hate and nonsense and should be kept in the light only to see that he and his kind do nothing but talk and should be ignored beyond that. His venom is harmful to society and harmful to the religion he claims to be a part of.
"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.” -Pat
That is such a gem. It is hard to take people like this seriously, even though I do realize they can be a legitimate threat to freedom.
posted by bargle at 7:49 PM on September 14, 2001
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posted by jasonspaceman at 5:25 AM on September 14, 2001