Passenger removed from plane, stripped, and washed.
October 14, 2001 8:56 AM Subscribe
Passenger removed from plane, stripped, and washed. Further loss of rights??? Knee jerk reaction??? How much must we give up in the name of security???
lizs: I wouldn't think unlawful search and seizure was a privilege.
I don't wish to be presumed guilty anywhere and forced to prove my guilt. This is not a game and the all-or-nothing is my rights.
posted by DBAPaul at 9:25 AM on October 14, 2001
I don't wish to be presumed guilty anywhere and forced to prove my guilt. This is not a game and the all-or-nothing is my rights.
posted by DBAPaul at 9:25 AM on October 14, 2001
Geoff: This is not about "people freaking out" it's more about government freaking out. Sure we could live in a nice safe world protected by our government, but I'm not sure I wish to give up my rights to placate others.
posted by DBAPaul at 9:33 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by DBAPaul at 9:33 AM on October 14, 2001
What law was broken here? If the police have probable cause, they can search you and take you into custody temporarily. He'll presumably be released quickly without charges.
It probably sucked to be him Saturday, but in the greater scheme of things, if the price of a rapid response to suspected bioterrorism is an occasional unpleasant afternoon with Special Agent Roving Hands, I'd take that.
posted by rcade at 9:34 AM on October 14, 2001
It probably sucked to be him Saturday, but in the greater scheme of things, if the price of a rapid response to suspected bioterrorism is an occasional unpleasant afternoon with Special Agent Roving Hands, I'd take that.
posted by rcade at 9:34 AM on October 14, 2001
I read the article, and I don't see any indication of unlawful search and seizure. The man was not in his own home, in his own car or walking in a public area. As soon as the guy got on the plane, any sense of privacy is lost. You give up certain rights when you walk through the security area (bags are searched then, right? They'll take out any items that are a threat (knives), so that's seizure, right?)
In real life, I can go for a walk anywhere I want, but I can't do that on a plane (1st class or the cockpit). I can carry whatever I want with me when I'm walking down the street, but I am only allowed to carry what is authorized when I get on a plane.
I'm surprised how many people assume that their rights extend every where at every time. It just isn't like that.
posted by Grum at 9:37 AM on October 14, 2001
In real life, I can go for a walk anywhere I want, but I can't do that on a plane (1st class or the cockpit). I can carry whatever I want with me when I'm walking down the street, but I am only allowed to carry what is authorized when I get on a plane.
I'm surprised how many people assume that their rights extend every where at every time. It just isn't like that.
posted by Grum at 9:37 AM on October 14, 2001
I'm glad to hear this was far from being a real event. Living in the bay area, yesterday afternoon the local newscast broke into shows just to put up an image of a waiting plane surrounded by authorities. They didn't know much about what was going on (their only source was a cell phone call from inside). The anthrax scares are reaching a fever pitch. When we let ourselves get crazy from all these hyped up news reports, things like a greeting card with confetti in it turn into potential disasters.
posted by mathowie at 9:43 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by mathowie at 9:43 AM on October 14, 2001
The real question is how many question marks can we insert in the pursuit of security? I mean, god help us, we may not have enough question marks!
posted by aramaic at 9:55 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by aramaic at 9:55 AM on October 14, 2001
Someone aboard the plane told a crew member the man had dispersed powder into the ventilation system.
I hope the person that was stripped and humilated finds some way to make a small fortune from this incident or at least gets the oppertunity to knock the crap out of the idiot that claimed he was dispersing powder. Fuck, I'd feel more comfortable riding in a plane without any security at all if this type of thing starts happening on a regular basis. Paranoid idiots.
posted by bargle at 9:56 AM on October 14, 2001
I hope the person that was stripped and humilated finds some way to make a small fortune from this incident or at least gets the oppertunity to knock the crap out of the idiot that claimed he was dispersing powder. Fuck, I'd feel more comfortable riding in a plane without any security at all if this type of thing starts happening on a regular basis. Paranoid idiots.
posted by bargle at 9:56 AM on October 14, 2001
aramaic: our security is the ??? save us from extraneous punctuation!!!
posted by DBAPaul at 10:04 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by DBAPaul at 10:04 AM on October 14, 2001
¿¿¿ We really need to be looking at the flip-side of this question mark issue to be balanced... ¿¿¿
posted by machaus at 10:04 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by machaus at 10:04 AM on October 14, 2001
I am sure the importance of choosing a deodorant that doesn't leave a powdery residue is about be a topic on the capital gang now..
posted by srboisvert at 10:36 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by srboisvert at 10:36 AM on October 14, 2001
In Sweden three men of Arab descent were taken off a plane, which was just about to take off to the popular holiday place the Canary Islands. The pilot made the decision after receiving complaints from other passengers, who were worried about the nervous behavior of the men and presumably also about their looks. According to the police the men's passports were ok. Two of the men are Swedish citizens and they are likely to sue the company responsible, Premiair.
Here is an article about it in Swedish.
posted by selanna at 10:41 AM on October 14, 2001
Here is an article about it in Swedish.
posted by selanna at 10:41 AM on October 14, 2001
The 17 passengers were detained and preliminary decontamination steps were taken on them, which Hamilton said consisted for most part of washing their hands.
... and were given a stern talking-to about their washroom habits, then reminded that their mothers were probably hoping they were wearing clean underwear.
posted by bwg at 11:00 AM on October 14, 2001
... and were given a stern talking-to about their washroom habits, then reminded that their mothers were probably hoping they were wearing clean underwear.
posted by bwg at 11:00 AM on October 14, 2001
i hope it was a sponge bath...
...yumm... sponge bath...
posted by jcterminal at 11:15 AM on October 14, 2001
...yumm... sponge bath...
posted by jcterminal at 11:15 AM on October 14, 2001
I think the question is -- why didn't anyone discover that it was confetti before the man was stripped and given a decontaminating shower? Why didn't they ask him what he had first, and proceed upon that basis? And truly, the question you've got to ask is this -- why only the man? What if they'd pulled every first class passenger and scrubbed them down because of some confetti in a greeting card?
There's reaction and then there's overreaction. Every benign incident (confetti, spilled baby laxative powder at our local children's hospital, talcum powder on a mailbag) is turning into a full-blown hazmat situation, eating up resources, sapping manpower. It would be really disconcerting if something really big did happen while a team of 45 responded to confetti or baby laxative. It would be worse if something happened and couldn't be contained because we'd exhausted our Hazmat crews by investigating common, everyday spills because we've become totally paranoid about everything that remotely resembles powder. Someone could cause thousands of dollars of man time and wreck absolute havoc with a 39 cent box of baking soda.
Worse, people are using the threat of anthrax to set up incidents with far more potential for a grave outcome. Last night, someone phoned in an anthrax threat to the University of Pittsburgh and eight buildings were evacuated -- which meant that thousands of kids were milling around on the streets. Now, if someone really wanted to terrorise Pitt, they had a sizable portion of the student body (plus a nice number of the police force all wearing gas masks that no civilians had) all as sitting ducks. Didn't anybody think about that? Imagine the lawsuit I'd have against that school if they'd evacuated my kid to a busy metropolitan street at 11 at night because of a supposed threat, and then the kid was blown up by a car bomb or picked off by sniper fire.
People are calling authorities because of dust, beach sand, baby powder, and everything, convinced that they've become the next target of something that we don't even know is related to the terror attacks, despite what Dick Cheney has told us and we're jumping all over ourselves to treat all of these as credible threats when they clearly are not. We must err on the side of caution, but we ought not suspend common sense in trying times like these, either. Asking simple questions first, then reacting in response is common sense.
posted by Dreama at 11:20 AM on October 14, 2001
There's reaction and then there's overreaction. Every benign incident (confetti, spilled baby laxative powder at our local children's hospital, talcum powder on a mailbag) is turning into a full-blown hazmat situation, eating up resources, sapping manpower. It would be really disconcerting if something really big did happen while a team of 45 responded to confetti or baby laxative. It would be worse if something happened and couldn't be contained because we'd exhausted our Hazmat crews by investigating common, everyday spills because we've become totally paranoid about everything that remotely resembles powder. Someone could cause thousands of dollars of man time and wreck absolute havoc with a 39 cent box of baking soda.
Worse, people are using the threat of anthrax to set up incidents with far more potential for a grave outcome. Last night, someone phoned in an anthrax threat to the University of Pittsburgh and eight buildings were evacuated -- which meant that thousands of kids were milling around on the streets. Now, if someone really wanted to terrorise Pitt, they had a sizable portion of the student body (plus a nice number of the police force all wearing gas masks that no civilians had) all as sitting ducks. Didn't anybody think about that? Imagine the lawsuit I'd have against that school if they'd evacuated my kid to a busy metropolitan street at 11 at night because of a supposed threat, and then the kid was blown up by a car bomb or picked off by sniper fire.
People are calling authorities because of dust, beach sand, baby powder, and everything, convinced that they've become the next target of something that we don't even know is related to the terror attacks, despite what Dick Cheney has told us and we're jumping all over ourselves to treat all of these as credible threats when they clearly are not. We must err on the side of caution, but we ought not suspend common sense in trying times like these, either. Asking simple questions first, then reacting in response is common sense.
posted by Dreama at 11:20 AM on October 14, 2001
geoff was not saying "people are freaking out", he was very polite in his attempt to point out a double post.
posted by bjgeiger at 11:26 AM on October 14, 2001
posted by bjgeiger at 11:26 AM on October 14, 2001
bjgeiger: Geoff's link was to a link in a comment of another thread which was discussing anthrax issues.
I posted this (different link, same content) to question what seems to be witless over reaction and the lack of common sense by authorities.
I had no knowledge of the link people are freaking out which was not commented on and if I had, I might have posted this anyway.
posted by DBAPaul at 1:13 PM on October 14, 2001
I posted this (different link, same content) to question what seems to be witless over reaction and the lack of common sense by authorities.
I had no knowledge of the link people are freaking out which was not commented on and if I had, I might have posted this anyway.
posted by DBAPaul at 1:13 PM on October 14, 2001
dreama: i disagree...in the state that the country is in now, you cannot afford to take any chances.
so what if he said it was just confetti? that could mean nothing; they could be covered with anthrax... just because it wasn't a powder doesn't mean anything.
but what you are saying is to sit idly by and say "well, its probably nothing, lets just leave it" and then boom, just when you think that is ok, it isnt.
hate to imagine the guilt they would feel.
posted by JackthaStripper at 1:17 PM on October 14, 2001
so what if he said it was just confetti? that could mean nothing; they could be covered with anthrax... just because it wasn't a powder doesn't mean anything.
but what you are saying is to sit idly by and say "well, its probably nothing, lets just leave it" and then boom, just when you think that is ok, it isnt.
hate to imagine the guilt they would feel.
posted by JackthaStripper at 1:17 PM on October 14, 2001
I can almost hear John Ashcroft now: "To preserve our freedom and way of life, it is absolutely imperative that Congress give the US Justice Department immediate power to detain every person possessing anything powdery and hold them indefinitely. A free society demands no less."
Excuse me while I go padlock my baking soda.
posted by mdeatherage at 1:32 PM on October 14, 2001
Excuse me while I go padlock my baking soda.
posted by mdeatherage at 1:32 PM on October 14, 2001
Am I becoming a conservative? Because I do not understand what right was trespassed. If anyone here goes to an airport and sees a guy with an envelope, and its contents are going up into the ventilation shaft, please report it - even if you think its just confetti! Even if you are most likely wrong!
Similarly, if you are about to board a plane and are carrying a big vat of baking soda in your carry on I hope you are detained. I really do. I am hoping for more stringent rules right now, not less.
I'm glad that there are people that are skeptical and wish to preserve and protect American rights no matter what the cost, but these are not rights. These are frills. Americans gave up many more substantial amenities during World War II.
By confusing frills with rights you are cheapening the dignity of what you seek to protect.
posted by xammerboy at 1:51 PM on October 14, 2001
Similarly, if you are about to board a plane and are carrying a big vat of baking soda in your carry on I hope you are detained. I really do. I am hoping for more stringent rules right now, not less.
I'm glad that there are people that are skeptical and wish to preserve and protect American rights no matter what the cost, but these are not rights. These are frills. Americans gave up many more substantial amenities during World War II.
By confusing frills with rights you are cheapening the dignity of what you seek to protect.
posted by xammerboy at 1:51 PM on October 14, 2001
I don't want to know what would happen now if I would spill my coffee creamer on a plane's aisle.
Security and all the names you want to call it, yes, but you can't deny many "preventive measures" are getting in the verge of ridiculousness, can you?
posted by betobeto at 2:16 PM on October 14, 2001
Security and all the names you want to call it, yes, but you can't deny many "preventive measures" are getting in the verge of ridiculousness, can you?
posted by betobeto at 2:16 PM on October 14, 2001
but what you are saying is to sit idly by and say "well, its probably nothing, lets just leave it" and then boom, just when you think that is ok, it isnt.
I'm saying no such thing. I'm just suggesting that we employ a little discretion and a little restraint. Respond, but with due force, and due process. Ask a question before yanking people out of their dormitories and off of planes, check to see what something is before throwing someone into a decontamination shower over some fricking confetti.
"Sir what was the substance?"
"It was confetti, my sister handed me a birthday card before I got on the plane and I didn't have a chance to open it before mid-flight. She put confetti in there, and it got sucked up into the vent. Here's the envelope and the card and the rest of the stuff for you to check out."
Hazmat agents look, see that the stuff does seem very much confetti-like, proceed from there. Call the sister "Ma'am, did you give your brother anything before he boarded his flight?" "Yes, a birthday card." "And how did you give him this card?" "In an envelope." "Just the card?" "Yeah, well, I put in some confetti, just to make it fun." "What kind of confetti?" "It was small, white bits of paper, really fine stuff that would make a mess all over him -- it was just kind of a joke." Look at the stuff under a microscope -- oh hey, it is paper. Go figure. Panic, crisis and overreaction avoided.
posted by Dreama at 2:17 PM on October 14, 2001
I'm saying no such thing. I'm just suggesting that we employ a little discretion and a little restraint. Respond, but with due force, and due process. Ask a question before yanking people out of their dormitories and off of planes, check to see what something is before throwing someone into a decontamination shower over some fricking confetti.
"Sir what was the substance?"
"It was confetti, my sister handed me a birthday card before I got on the plane and I didn't have a chance to open it before mid-flight. She put confetti in there, and it got sucked up into the vent. Here's the envelope and the card and the rest of the stuff for you to check out."
Hazmat agents look, see that the stuff does seem very much confetti-like, proceed from there. Call the sister "Ma'am, did you give your brother anything before he boarded his flight?" "Yes, a birthday card." "And how did you give him this card?" "In an envelope." "Just the card?" "Yeah, well, I put in some confetti, just to make it fun." "What kind of confetti?" "It was small, white bits of paper, really fine stuff that would make a mess all over him -- it was just kind of a joke." Look at the stuff under a microscope -- oh hey, it is paper. Go figure. Panic, crisis and overreaction avoided.
posted by Dreama at 2:17 PM on October 14, 2001
Dreama: You make some good points, but I can't imagine "the lawsuit [you'd] have against that school." What if there actually had been anthrax in the buildings, and your kid contracted the disease? Would you sue the school for NOT evacuating the buildings? Shouldn't your anger be directed at the crackpot who phoned in the threat instead of the school officials who are following their established policies and procedures?
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 2:19 PM on October 14, 2001
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 2:19 PM on October 14, 2001
My grandma used to stuff my birthday cards with confetti like this.
I thought it was funny, until I was quietly told that she just had excema.
posted by dong_resin at 3:27 PM on October 14, 2001
I thought it was funny, until I was quietly told that she just had excema.
posted by dong_resin at 3:27 PM on October 14, 2001
Since the first time I received a greeting card which produced a shower of twinkly sparkles, I have looked forward to the day when legislators recognize the need for stern anti-card-confetti laws: my grounds have been, of course, that it is really annoying to have the stuff pour all over the carpet. But I guess hazmat hysteria will do as an excuse.
Oh, an dong_resin: ewwwwwwwwwww!
posted by BT at 3:46 PM on October 14, 2001
Oh, an dong_resin: ewwwwwwwwwww!
posted by BT at 3:46 PM on October 14, 2001
I think the question is -- why didn't anyone discover that it was confetti before the man was stripped and given a decontaminating shower? Why didn't they ask him what he had first, and proceed upon that basis?
Apparently only by robbing a person of their dignity can you determine whether or not Hallmark confetti is actually anthrax in disguise. I'm surprised they didn't shoot him, just to be safe.
posted by bargle at 4:06 PM on October 14, 2001
Apparently only by robbing a person of their dignity can you determine whether or not Hallmark confetti is actually anthrax in disguise. I'm surprised they didn't shoot him, just to be safe.
posted by bargle at 4:06 PM on October 14, 2001
dreama: i disagree...in the state that the country is in now, you cannot afford to take any chances.
so what if he said it was just confetti? that could mean nothing; they could be covered with anthrax... just because it wasn't a powder doesn't mean anything.
Do we really want a country in which the FBI is called every time someone drops a can of coffee creamer, salt, or foot powder?
I don't want to know what would happen now if I would spill my coffee creamer on a plane's aisle.
Hopefully ask why they don't have half+half.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:26 PM on October 14, 2001
so what if he said it was just confetti? that could mean nothing; they could be covered with anthrax... just because it wasn't a powder doesn't mean anything.
Do we really want a country in which the FBI is called every time someone drops a can of coffee creamer, salt, or foot powder?
I don't want to know what would happen now if I would spill my coffee creamer on a plane's aisle.
Hopefully ask why they don't have half+half.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:26 PM on October 14, 2001
I certainly understand that people feel paranoid right now. But at what point is it acceptable to hold people responsible for crying fire in a crowded theater?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone other than a complete hysteric could confuse confetti (which tends to be brightly colored) and some sort of generic white powder.
posted by Sqwerty at 10:53 PM on October 14, 2001
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone other than a complete hysteric could confuse confetti (which tends to be brightly colored) and some sort of generic white powder.
posted by Sqwerty at 10:53 PM on October 14, 2001
this anthrax scare has to be making it easier for some people.
FBI: "Is that anthrax?!?"
Guy: "No, it's cocaine."
FBI: "Very well, carry on, citizen."
posted by tolkhan at 7:45 AM on October 15, 2001
FBI: "Is that anthrax?!?"
Guy: "No, it's cocaine."
FBI: "Very well, carry on, citizen."
posted by tolkhan at 7:45 AM on October 15, 2001
"Sir what was the substance?"...
"Mr. Aziz, what was the substance?"
"It was being only some paper. My sister is giving me a Ramadan card just before boarding flight. She filled it with tiny bits of paper as gag. Quite the jokester and I will have her flogged if you wish. But nothing harmful, you can trust me because I am saying so, yes?"
HazMat does a visual inspection (which is the most accurate test for anthrax and other similar substances) and calls the sister to verify the story:
"Yes, I am being his sister in spite of my deep, manly voice. I am giving him Ramadan card just before boarding and we are not repeating a cover story. Only bits of paper as gag. Nothing harmful, you can trust me because terrorists are being too stupid to have prearranged alibis, yes? Let us all breathe deeply to calm down, yes? Deep breaths of good air all around my brother."
posted by joaquim at 11:04 AM on October 15, 2001
"Mr. Aziz, what was the substance?"
"It was being only some paper. My sister is giving me a Ramadan card just before boarding flight. She filled it with tiny bits of paper as gag. Quite the jokester and I will have her flogged if you wish. But nothing harmful, you can trust me because I am saying so, yes?"
HazMat does a visual inspection (which is the most accurate test for anthrax and other similar substances) and calls the sister to verify the story:
"Yes, I am being his sister in spite of my deep, manly voice. I am giving him Ramadan card just before boarding and we are not repeating a cover story. Only bits of paper as gag. Nothing harmful, you can trust me because terrorists are being too stupid to have prearranged alibis, yes? Let us all breathe deeply to calm down, yes? Deep breaths of good air all around my brother."
posted by joaquim at 11:04 AM on October 15, 2001
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the consequences of not catching a lethal infectious agent - especially one that may be transported all over the country by a plane full of passengers with variant end destinations - are so great that until we find a quick way to definitively eliminate the worst possibilities, they cannot be ignored *even once.* yes, it's a pain in the ass. so is being evacuated from your building every other day because some asshole phones in a bomb threat. (I work close to the Empire State Building and this has been happening quite a bit.) these are not situations, however, where the government or the companies involved (airlines, realty management corps) can afford to take a chance. being wrong even once would be too devastating. it's an all-or-nothing game.
posted by lizs at 9:14 AM on October 14, 2001