Go Stinky go!!!
March 30, 2005 6:59 AM Subscribe
Four high school students -- gold chains, fake diamond rings, patchy, adolescent mustaches and sharp brains -- take on MIT and others in a robot competition. They're undocumented Mexican Americans living in trailers and shabby houses in Arizona. They raise only $800 from the community to fund their project, while the MIT team raises $11,000 from corporate donors. They have to scrounge for the "most best tampons" at the last moment to fix a leak in their robot. The other teams snicker at their garishly painted robot when it's unveiled poolside. You know how this is going to end. You know. But it's very satisfying to read nonetheless. (via Amygdala)
I can totally see a montage of robot-building and adolescent love set to the tune of Joe Esposito's You're the Best.
posted by Tullius at 7:13 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by Tullius at 7:13 AM on March 30, 2005
I can totally see a montage of robot-building and adolescent love
That's old hat. I'd prefer a montage of adolescent building and robot love, frankly.
And the article is a bit "breathless," as delmoi said. It's like the author is coming to the startling revelation that poor Chicanos can actually be smart. Whatta revelation.
posted by jonmc at 7:15 AM on March 30, 2005
That's old hat. I'd prefer a montage of adolescent building and robot love, frankly.
And the article is a bit "breathless," as delmoi said. It's like the author is coming to the startling revelation that poor Chicanos can actually be smart. Whatta revelation.
posted by jonmc at 7:15 AM on March 30, 2005
Speaking of which, where does it say they are "undocumented"?
It talks about it late in the article in terms of why they can't go to university - because they'd have to pay out of state tuition fees.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:20 AM on March 30, 2005
It talks about it late in the article in terms of why they can't go to university - because they'd have to pay out of state tuition fees.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:20 AM on March 30, 2005
Read this first in the print version of Wired and was very delighted by the feel good tone.
Except, there is a not-so-feel-good tone in there. Because they are all unregistered aliens in that country, they have very little options. One did well in JROTC but due to his status, can't get a scholarship for college.
These men/boys are an asset to the US and because of some immigration laws, the best they can do now is lay sheet rock.
If you would like to help them fully realize their potential, give till it hurts.
Or better yet, ask your company to do so.
posted by Dagobert at 7:22 AM on March 30, 2005
Except, there is a not-so-feel-good tone in there. Because they are all unregistered aliens in that country, they have very little options. One did well in JROTC but due to his status, can't get a scholarship for college.
These men/boys are an asset to the US and because of some immigration laws, the best they can do now is lay sheet rock.
If you would like to help them fully realize their potential, give till it hurts.
Or better yet, ask your company to do so.
posted by Dagobert at 7:22 AM on March 30, 2005
From the last page: They hope to see all four kids go to college before they quit teaching, which means they're likely to keep working for a long time. Since the teenagers are undocumented, they don't qualify for federal loans. And though they've lived in Arizona for an average of 11 years, they would still have to pay out-of-state tuition, which can be as much as three times the in-state cost. They can't afford it.
posted by maudlin at 7:24 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by maudlin at 7:24 AM on March 30, 2005
It also talks about a scholarship fund that's been set up for them. Surely this is at least as good a cause as some of the other funds we've been asked to contribute to?
On preview, ditto Dagobert.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:24 AM on March 30, 2005
On preview, ditto Dagobert.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:24 AM on March 30, 2005
delmoi, it says so in the fourth paragraph: The four teenagers who built it are all undocumented Mexican immigrants who came to this country through tunnels or hidden in the backseats of cars.
posted by zsazsa at 7:25 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by zsazsa at 7:25 AM on March 30, 2005
Excellent post and I want to call out specific attention to the relevant immigration matter mentioned in the Amygdala link:
On preview, what Dagobert said.
posted by jperkins at 7:26 AM on March 30, 2005
They hope to see all four kids go to college before they quit teaching, which means they're likely to keep working for a long time. Since the teenagers are undocumented, they don't qualify for federal loans. And though they've lived in Arizona for an average of 11 years, they would still have to pay out-of-state tuition, which can be as much as three times the in-state cost. They can't afford it.An excellent topic given the spate of immigration posts that we've seen recently. And there's information about how you can donate to a college fund setup for Stinky's inventors here.
And they're not alone. Approximately 60,000 undocumented students graduate from US high schools every year. One promising solution, according to Cameron and other advocates for immigrant kids, is the Dream Act, federal legislation that would give in-state tuition and temporary resident status to undocumented students who graduate from a US high school after being enrolled in the States for five years or more. The bill, which was introduced in 2003 and is slated to be resubmitted this spring, aims to give undocumented students a reason to stay in school. If they do, the act promises financial assistance for college. In turn, immigrants would pay taxes and be able to contribute their talents to the US.
Some immigration activists don't see it that way. Ira Mehlman, the Los Angeles-based media director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, successfully lobbied against the legislation last year. He says it will put citizens and legal immigrants in direct competition for the limited number of seats at state colleges. "What will you say," he asks, "to an American kid who does not get into a state university and whose family cannot afford a private college because that seat and that subsidy have been given to someone who is in the country illegally?"
On preview, what Dagobert said.
posted by jperkins at 7:26 AM on March 30, 2005
"PowerPoint is a distraction," Cristian replied. "People use it when they don't know what to say."
Hah. He should win just for that :P
posted by delmoi at 7:26 AM on March 30, 2005
Hah. He should win just for that :P
posted by delmoi at 7:26 AM on March 30, 2005
Some immigration activists don't see it that way. Ira Mehlman, the Los Angeles-based media director for the Federation for American Immigration Reform, successfully lobbied against the legislation last year. He says it will put citizens and legal immigrants in direct competition for the limited number of seats at state colleges. "What will you say," he asks, "to an American kid who does not get into a state university and whose family cannot afford a private college because that seat and that subsidy have been given to someone who is in the country illegally?"Umm... How about "tough luck, moron"?
Also, I'm pretty sure they have collages in Mexico...
posted by delmoi at 7:30 AM on March 30, 2005
Umm... How about "tough luck, moron"?
I like the way that the guy over at Amygdala put it with, "That we'd rather have smart kids using their gifts to make our lives better than dumb kids who by luck of birth are getting a gift they haven't earned? ."
posted by jperkins at 7:41 AM on March 30, 2005
I like the way that the guy over at Amygdala put it with, "That we'd rather have smart kids using their gifts to make our lives better than dumb kids who by luck of birth are getting a gift they haven't earned? ."
posted by jperkins at 7:41 AM on March 30, 2005
Also, I'm pretty sure they have collages in Mexico...
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:42 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:42 AM on March 30, 2005
Suck it, Lou Dobbs.
posted by UKnowForKids at 7:44 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by UKnowForKids at 7:44 AM on March 30, 2005
That was an excellently written FPP.
posted by Yellowbeard at 7:56 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by Yellowbeard at 7:56 AM on March 30, 2005
bah - that was rubbish. Where's the smart and sassy cheerleader who realises her predjudices, falls in love with the leader and later helps the team win with nothing but a bra strap and a misplaced comment.
GF(Girfriend): "Oh, Zona - How are you ever going to solve your oxygen depletion problem"
GGLMH (Generic Good Looking Mexican Hero): "Say that bit again"
GF: "Oxygen Depletion? But you know that already."
GGLMH: "No, No - the other Bit"
GF: "Oh Zona?"
GGLMH: "Yes - That's it. If we bypass the ozone output past the cathodic Barometer ... (etc)"
GF: "I love you GGLMH.
posted by seanyboy at 7:58 AM on March 30, 2005
GF(Girfriend): "Oh, Zona - How are you ever going to solve your oxygen depletion problem"
GGLMH (Generic Good Looking Mexican Hero): "Say that bit again"
GF: "Oxygen Depletion? But you know that already."
GGLMH: "No, No - the other Bit"
GF: "Oh Zona?"
GGLMH: "Yes - That's it. If we bypass the ozone output past the cathodic Barometer ... (etc)"
GF: "I love you GGLMH.
posted by seanyboy at 7:58 AM on March 30, 2005
I enjoyed this story very much. Thank you for the link.
posted by Melinika at 7:58 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by Melinika at 7:58 AM on March 30, 2005
Delmoi - why do I get the impression that you didn't actually RTFA before posting the first comment, and that your subsequent comments were posted as you were reading? If "First Post" is so important to you, why don't you just write that, rather than ask a question which is answered at least three times in the piece and then add multiple posts further on when you finally find something interesting to comment on (or not)?
posted by benzo8 at 7:59 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by benzo8 at 7:59 AM on March 30, 2005
I loved this story when I first read it the other day. It's so perfect it could be a Disney flick. I think there's a large amount of people who see this though, and don't understand that by trying to shut out the poor imigrants from the country, we're also deterring the some of the brightest at the same point.
Glad to see the overly technical and complicated MIT project flounder. Engineer's over think solutions all the time.
posted by inthe80s at 8:02 AM on March 30, 2005
Glad to see the overly technical and complicated MIT project flounder. Engineer's over think solutions all the time.
posted by inthe80s at 8:02 AM on March 30, 2005
I've never been terribly fond of illegal immigrants on principle..
but really, these kids deserve full tuition and green cards for showing up those MIT bastards. Nothing like a top-end computer science school to warp a brilliant mind into the next generation of corporate lackeys.
University's never been fair. Kids this bright deserve an education, because they're a hell of a lot more likely to do something productive for the world than Joe Sixpack and his second wife, raising a couple of lardassed hellions the TV + Xbox way.
I'll be sure and remember to give to kids like this when my continued existence doesn't depend on student loans as well. For a future where smart kids get educated, and Powerpoint is rightfully maligned!
posted by Saydur at 8:17 AM on March 30, 2005
but really, these kids deserve full tuition and green cards for showing up those MIT bastards. Nothing like a top-end computer science school to warp a brilliant mind into the next generation of corporate lackeys.
University's never been fair. Kids this bright deserve an education, because they're a hell of a lot more likely to do something productive for the world than Joe Sixpack and his second wife, raising a couple of lardassed hellions the TV + Xbox way.
I'll be sure and remember to give to kids like this when my continued existence doesn't depend on student loans as well. For a future where smart kids get educated, and Powerpoint is rightfully maligned!
posted by Saydur at 8:17 AM on March 30, 2005
jonmc wrote: It's like the author is coming to the startling revelation that poor Chicanos can actually be smart. Whatta revelation.
To which I say, "Amen!" I read this article in the print version of Wired last week, and was mostly left with the nasty aftertaste of the author's condescension. It's so pervasive that the ending of the article plays like atonement.
posted by Dr. Wu at 8:20 AM on March 30, 2005
To which I say, "Amen!" I read this article in the print version of Wired last week, and was mostly left with the nasty aftertaste of the author's condescension. It's so pervasive that the ending of the article plays like atonement.
posted by Dr. Wu at 8:20 AM on March 30, 2005
I liked the story about these guys, and how they succeeded. But the tone in which it is written is annoyingly condescending at points; point in case, when Lorenzo has to go buy a tampon: natural teenage embarrassment on buying it is portrayed in a demeaning way: "He wasn't used to approaching women, let alone well-dressed white women." The description of what went through their minds as they were being announced as the winners is as well demeaning and offensive.
But there is another problem, much more urgent that the money for their college: they need legal representation now; otherwise, they wouldn't even be allowed to get into any college, and are subject to deportation at any moment. These guys can get to any college later, they are able and intelligent.
The real urgency is to get them to an immigration lawyer now.
posted by kadmilos at 8:21 AM on March 30, 2005
But there is another problem, much more urgent that the money for their college: they need legal representation now; otherwise, they wouldn't even be allowed to get into any college, and are subject to deportation at any moment. These guys can get to any college later, they are able and intelligent.
The real urgency is to get them to an immigration lawyer now.
posted by kadmilos at 8:21 AM on March 30, 2005
To which I say, "Amen!" I read this article in the print version of Wired last week, and was mostly left with the nasty aftertaste of the author's condescension. It's so pervasive that the ending of the article plays like atonement.
I believe the best word to describe it would be "paternalistic," which is an attitude that pervades many stories about non-white youth, even well-meaning liberal minded ones. But it's still a story worth reporting.
posted by jonmc at 8:26 AM on March 30, 2005
I believe the best word to describe it would be "paternalistic," which is an attitude that pervades many stories about non-white youth, even well-meaning liberal minded ones. But it's still a story worth reporting.
posted by jonmc at 8:26 AM on March 30, 2005
Where's MIT with the scholarship money for these four? Or NOAA or NASA?
And the award for Best Comment on MS Powerpoint by a Teenager:
"Why don't you have a PowerPoint display?" he asked.
"PowerPoint is a distraction," Cristian replied. "People use it when they don't know what to say."
"And you know what to say?"
"Yes, sir."
posted by FairWitness at 8:34 AM on March 30, 2005
And the award for Best Comment on MS Powerpoint by a Teenager:
"Why don't you have a PowerPoint display?" he asked.
"PowerPoint is a distraction," Cristian replied. "People use it when they don't know what to say."
"And you know what to say?"
"Yes, sir."
posted by FairWitness at 8:34 AM on March 30, 2005
I agree with others that the writing is condescening in a seeminlgy hyperbolic fashion, but the story itself is absolutely heartwarming and heartbreaking. I'm a mediocre engineering student, a product of privilege and an American middle class background...this is a sobering reminder of how much stuff I've taken for granted and how unfair the educational system is. I hope these kids (and others like them) get what they deserve.
posted by ch3ch2oh at 8:39 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by ch3ch2oh at 8:39 AM on March 30, 2005
Nice that these kids are so smart, but I don't feel sorry for them. There are tons of smart poor American kids who don't have those educational options either.
We need to take care of our own FIRST
posted by gminks at 8:51 AM on March 30, 2005
We need to take care of our own FIRST
posted by gminks at 8:51 AM on March 30, 2005
This is pretty awesume, and it is interesting to see the control system they used. It is a set from last year's FIRST competition, so its cool to see what else that could be done with that system. These guys are better engineers than the college kids could ever be, because from the awards they can build a great bot, and they can communicate better than the other teams.
posted by litghost at 8:53 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by litghost at 8:53 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks - Why are the people that happen to be born in this country our own? Are we all on geographic teams? Is this why people follow teams from their closest major cities? Should your place of birth dictate your opportunities in life?
posted by bh at 8:54 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by bh at 8:54 AM on March 30, 2005
Wow, that just made me cry a little... I better grab some most best tampons. I'm donating money to that fund... can't think of more deserving kids.
posted by dannynewbs at 8:56 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by dannynewbs at 8:56 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks: a college education isn't about making sure your kids get taken care of job-wise, at least not an engineering education. It's about training the most apt or most motivated so that they are an asset to society. Innovators like these kids make the rest of us wealthy, the least we can do is not charge them $50K for the priviledge.
They should apply abroad. I bet they could get scholarships to Canadian or European universities, even if they are having legal problems in the US. I can see that they might need to be with their families though.
posted by fshgrl at 9:01 AM on March 30, 2005
They should apply abroad. I bet they could get scholarships to Canadian or European universities, even if they are having legal problems in the US. I can see that they might need to be with their families though.
posted by fshgrl at 9:01 AM on March 30, 2005
Why are the people that happen to be born in this country our own?
What? Didn't you get the memo?
posted by felix betachat at 9:03 AM on March 30, 2005
What? Didn't you get the memo?
posted by felix betachat at 9:03 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks - the point is that "our own" qualify for in-state tuition and federal grants and loans. And these kids are practically "our own" based on their length of stay here. *And* they are pretty damn smart and creative, qualities we like to claim as "our own".
posted by jmgorman at 9:04 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by jmgorman at 9:04 AM on March 30, 2005
We need to take care of our own FIRST
[awkward silence]
posted by Hildago at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2005
[awkward silence]
posted by Hildago at 9:16 AM on March 30, 2005
Condescension in the narrative aside, this article was definitely worth reading. I have a soft spot for motivated kids (and teachers who actually have some passion for working with students) who get more out of their education than they would by sleeping through class.
That said, the comment from gminks is puzzling. Who, exactly, are "our own?" I would assume you mean legal residents, born in the US, who (I'm going out on a a limb here) speak English natively. That's a bizarre twist on the reality that exists in actual low income areas.
My mom volunteers at a local elementary school that has kids from low income families and a large percentage of ESL students. There are a lot of kids from broken homes, and some of them end up being at a school only a few months before they have to move again due to their parents changing jobs or losing custody. There's been one thing she's noticed as a trend: on average, the children of immigrants (some illegal) are a lot more motivated than the other kids. They're from homes where learning anything, whether it's speaking English or an employable skill, is a goal.
I'd like to think these kids are "our own," but maybe gminks is right and we should be trying to cater to the other kids, the ones who go home to yelling parents with no ambitions. Kids learn by example, remember that.
posted by mikeh at 9:17 AM on March 30, 2005
That said, the comment from gminks is puzzling. Who, exactly, are "our own?" I would assume you mean legal residents, born in the US, who (I'm going out on a a limb here) speak English natively. That's a bizarre twist on the reality that exists in actual low income areas.
My mom volunteers at a local elementary school that has kids from low income families and a large percentage of ESL students. There are a lot of kids from broken homes, and some of them end up being at a school only a few months before they have to move again due to their parents changing jobs or losing custody. There's been one thing she's noticed as a trend: on average, the children of immigrants (some illegal) are a lot more motivated than the other kids. They're from homes where learning anything, whether it's speaking English or an employable skill, is a goal.
I'd like to think these kids are "our own," but maybe gminks is right and we should be trying to cater to the other kids, the ones who go home to yelling parents with no ambitions. Kids learn by example, remember that.
posted by mikeh at 9:17 AM on March 30, 2005
I am from a very poor southern family. I had mostly A's, some B's in the AP courses I took in high school...never took the clep tests because my family couldn't afford them. I have worked since I was 14, and helped my family every step of the way.
After doing what most poor women do (getting married and having babies young) the tech boom came along and I was finally able to go to college, finally able to break out of poverty. For that I am thankful, but I realize that I am a very, very lucky woman to be where I am now.
My children's father (from whom I am long divorced) is not from this country. I can remember sitting in the consulate's office when lived in HIS country, bawling my eyes out because I wanted to come home... to the land my family has lived on for thousands of years.
I know what a struggle it is to enter this country legally, I went through it with my ex-husband. I truly resent people who are lauded as heros, even though they are here illegally. They go around the laws that are set up to protect US citizens, and in the end make themselves vuneralble to people who will take advantage of them at worst, at best they leave their children with no opportunities.
And just for the record, poor people many times cannot afford to go to college on grants and loans. Many, many times, they are expected to work and be a source of support to their familes. People who are the first in their familes to attend college have to learn HOW to get those grants and loans, no one spells it out to you (this, too I know from experience)
So yes, we should take care of the poor people who are here legally first. Our own. Why is it so hard to believe that a kid in rural North Carolina, or one of the projects in our big cities, shouldn't be given the same opportunities these illegal aliens have?
Maybe that is why it's so easy for people to forget the poor in the US. They don't want to claim them as our own.
posted by gminks at 9:18 AM on March 30, 2005
After doing what most poor women do (getting married and having babies young) the tech boom came along and I was finally able to go to college, finally able to break out of poverty. For that I am thankful, but I realize that I am a very, very lucky woman to be where I am now.
My children's father (from whom I am long divorced) is not from this country. I can remember sitting in the consulate's office when lived in HIS country, bawling my eyes out because I wanted to come home... to the land my family has lived on for thousands of years.
I know what a struggle it is to enter this country legally, I went through it with my ex-husband. I truly resent people who are lauded as heros, even though they are here illegally. They go around the laws that are set up to protect US citizens, and in the end make themselves vuneralble to people who will take advantage of them at worst, at best they leave their children with no opportunities.
And just for the record, poor people many times cannot afford to go to college on grants and loans. Many, many times, they are expected to work and be a source of support to their familes. People who are the first in their familes to attend college have to learn HOW to get those grants and loans, no one spells it out to you (this, too I know from experience)
So yes, we should take care of the poor people who are here legally first. Our own. Why is it so hard to believe that a kid in rural North Carolina, or one of the projects in our big cities, shouldn't be given the same opportunities these illegal aliens have?
Maybe that is why it's so easy for people to forget the poor in the US. They don't want to claim them as our own.
posted by gminks at 9:18 AM on March 30, 2005
These kids need more than scholarships, the need to be awarded citizenship. I wrote my congressman and ask him to try and help.
posted by Mick at 9:22 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by Mick at 9:22 AM on March 30, 2005
...to the land my family has lived on for thousands of years.
So... you're Native American, then?
posted by BobFrapples at 9:23 AM on March 30, 2005
So... you're Native American, then?
posted by BobFrapples at 9:23 AM on March 30, 2005
A very interesting story. Feels like some sort of Real Genius 2 plot is being squeezed out.
posted by Spacey at 9:26 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by Spacey at 9:26 AM on March 30, 2005
Yes, why the hell isn't some company or rich dot-com mogul stepping forward to pay for a college education for the entire group of kids?
posted by mrbill at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by mrbill at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks, many of the poor in the US are illegals. If you're a mexican immigrant working 3 jobs to support your family, you are part of our society. You pay taxes, you support the economy, and you provide services that a great many people depend on. Just because you haven't got a piece of paper that says you enjoy the privileges of citizenship and just because you got here by crossing a border illegally doesn't mean you don't have rights.
Let me be clear: the American economy depends on these people. Our society needs them. The fact that we don't afford them the same consideration we extend the native-born is shameful.
posted by felix betachat at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2005
Let me be clear: the American economy depends on these people. Our society needs them. The fact that we don't afford them the same consideration we extend the native-born is shameful.
posted by felix betachat at 9:29 AM on March 30, 2005
I truly resent people who are lauded as heros, even though they are here illegally. They go around the laws that are set up to protect US citizens
"DEY TOOK ERR JERBS!"
Are you angry because you didn't get a Wired writeup?
posted by mrbill at 9:32 AM on March 30, 2005
"DEY TOOK ERR JERBS!"
Are you angry because you didn't get a Wired writeup?
posted by mrbill at 9:32 AM on March 30, 2005
felix, I disagree with you. Greed, on the part of business owners, is the only reason we "need" illegal workers.
My friends and family (who are still pretty poor, and no are not from mexico) cannot get the service jobs they used to be able to get, because foreign workers are now given the jobs.
These immigrants are treated as slaves in many cases, and the Americans who used to do their jobs are left working three part time jobs to try and get by.
They do not deserve the same treatment as legal citizens because they are not legal citizens.
posted by gminks at 9:34 AM on March 30, 2005
My friends and family (who are still pretty poor, and no are not from mexico) cannot get the service jobs they used to be able to get, because foreign workers are now given the jobs.
These immigrants are treated as slaves in many cases, and the Americans who used to do their jobs are left working three part time jobs to try and get by.
They do not deserve the same treatment as legal citizens because they are not legal citizens.
posted by gminks at 9:34 AM on March 30, 2005
PS this thing that foreign kids is racist and BS.
What? No wonder you're so hopped up about H1Bs; they write much more clearly than you do.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:34 AM on March 30, 2005
What? No wonder you're so hopped up about H1Bs; they write much more clearly than you do.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:34 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks, I'm curious... where is the land that your family has lived on for thousands of years, and what is your ancestry?
posted by BobFrapples at 9:36 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by BobFrapples at 9:36 AM on March 30, 2005
Uh, *clears throat*, paging Bill Gates? These guys sound like candidates for his generous scholarships for minorities in science and tech fields. Also, why NOT go to a private school which offers full rides to minorities and/or foreign students routinely (like, say, Harvard or MIT).
These kids (and those like them) clearly deserve citizenship and the opportunites that go along with it. A brief derail in gminks' defense: it's considered ugly or racist to even mention (even though MLK himself pointedly warned against continuing to pit poor whites against poor blacks in a war over resources and opportunity), but I also know (from personal experience, and that of others) that being poor and....boring ol'American white disqualifies you from applying for the vast majority of funds earmarked for "disadvantaged" students. At many top institutions, these funds go to students who are from college-educated families who earn well above the median US income. Dad's a high school drop-out and mom always told you girls shouldn't go to college and have a career because no one she knew ever did? Get in line behind the minority kid from the top suburb who went to private school and has parents who are graduate-degreed professionals.
posted by availablelight at 9:48 AM on March 30, 2005
These kids (and those like them) clearly deserve citizenship and the opportunites that go along with it. A brief derail in gminks' defense: it's considered ugly or racist to even mention (even though MLK himself pointedly warned against continuing to pit poor whites against poor blacks in a war over resources and opportunity), but I also know (from personal experience, and that of others) that being poor and....boring ol'American white disqualifies you from applying for the vast majority of funds earmarked for "disadvantaged" students. At many top institutions, these funds go to students who are from college-educated families who earn well above the median US income. Dad's a high school drop-out and mom always told you girls shouldn't go to college and have a career because no one she knew ever did? Get in line behind the minority kid from the top suburb who went to private school and has parents who are graduate-degreed professionals.
posted by availablelight at 9:48 AM on March 30, 2005
At the risk of being a self-promoter I feel that I have to chime in to give props to a group I work with--San Diego City College's Pacific Nautilus team, who will be the first Community College team to compete in this event, and hopefully the first to beat MIT. I mean, if kids can do it, how hard can it be? Wish us luck!
posted by plexiwatt at 9:49 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by plexiwatt at 9:49 AM on March 30, 2005
My friends and family (who are still pretty poor, and no are not from mexico) cannot get the service jobs they used to be able to get, because foreign workers are now given the jobs . . . and the Americans who used to do their jobs are left working three part time jobs to try and get by.
Again, "DEY TOOK ERR JERBS!"
Don't complain because someone else is willing to do a job for less money.
posted by mrbill at 9:51 AM on March 30, 2005
Again, "DEY TOOK ERR JERBS!"
Don't complain because someone else is willing to do a job for less money.
posted by mrbill at 9:51 AM on March 30, 2005
I disagree with you. Greed, on the part of business owners, is the only reason we "need" illegal workers.
Understood. But why not express this sentiment in a thread about illegal immigration instead of shitting on a bunch of kids who've done something pretty extraordinary despite their circumstances?
Can't you hate the situation without hating those who are subject to it? More to the point, aren't statements like "we need to look after our own" precisely the sorts of attitudes that help greedy business owners disenfranchise illegals and maintain artificially low wage rates?
posted by felix betachat at 9:56 AM on March 30, 2005
Understood. But why not express this sentiment in a thread about illegal immigration instead of shitting on a bunch of kids who've done something pretty extraordinary despite their circumstances?
Can't you hate the situation without hating those who are subject to it? More to the point, aren't statements like "we need to look after our own" precisely the sorts of attitudes that help greedy business owners disenfranchise illegals and maintain artificially low wage rates?
posted by felix betachat at 9:56 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks:
listen to yourself: poor American citizens blaming (and being encouraged by government and corporations) poor Mexican immigrants for their plight.
Does the term "divide & conquer," mean anything to you?
posted by jonmc at 10:04 AM on March 30, 2005
listen to yourself: poor American citizens blaming (and being encouraged by government and corporations) poor Mexican immigrants for their plight.
Does the term "divide & conquer," mean anything to you?
posted by jonmc at 10:04 AM on March 30, 2005
Screw MIT - Why hasn't Arizona State put up a scholarship for these kids? They're living in Phoenix and have already shown they can beat MIT. What engineering school wouldn't want to have kids who can beat MIT?
posted by caution live frogs at 10:08 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by caution live frogs at 10:08 AM on March 30, 2005
Can you hear this? It’s the sound of the smallest violin in the world playing a song for the poor people (our own people) in the U.S. who are too poor and too lazy to stop crying about their lives for a moment to actually do something to get an education.
I came from a depressed town too, and my parents could hardly afford to pay for their bills, let alone for my college. I was in the same situation as almost all the other kids in my high school. But instead of getting pregnant, doing drugs, or falling into a pit of self-pity, I spent my time getting good grades, participating in school clubs, looking for scholarships, and taking out a LOT of school loans in my own name so I could get a good education.
I have absolutely no pity for people from the U.S. who claim that life has dealt them an unfair hand, and that they can’t get an education for whatever reason. There are hundreds of different opportunities out there, if you just get off your butt and find them. I don’t care if you’re an illegal immigrant or a U.S. born citizen; if you’re motivated, you should be able to go to college, and if you’re not, you belong working in the gas station.
Btw, I think the scholarship for these boys is for an excellent cause, and will be donating to it.
posted by Nematoda at 10:15 AM on March 30, 2005
I came from a depressed town too, and my parents could hardly afford to pay for their bills, let alone for my college. I was in the same situation as almost all the other kids in my high school. But instead of getting pregnant, doing drugs, or falling into a pit of self-pity, I spent my time getting good grades, participating in school clubs, looking for scholarships, and taking out a LOT of school loans in my own name so I could get a good education.
I have absolutely no pity for people from the U.S. who claim that life has dealt them an unfair hand, and that they can’t get an education for whatever reason. There are hundreds of different opportunities out there, if you just get off your butt and find them. I don’t care if you’re an illegal immigrant or a U.S. born citizen; if you’re motivated, you should be able to go to college, and if you’re not, you belong working in the gas station.
Btw, I think the scholarship for these boys is for an excellent cause, and will be donating to it.
posted by Nematoda at 10:15 AM on March 30, 2005
Don't complain because someone else is willing to do a job for less money.
Hi.
Minimum wage and operational safety standards are LAWS in this country for a reason.
Illegal immigrants are often worked for FAR less under far uglier circumstances, because they can be taken advantage of by companies that know that these immigrants are not aware of these laws.
Are you honestly suggesting that lower-class Americans should really sidestep the occupational protections of the law to compete with this sort of job market?
How about instead of everyone doing our damnedest to scream about illegal immigrants taking jobs (that most of us on this page wouldn't want anyway), we work to have it made law that illegals get the SAME pay as legal citizens, therefore, eliminating the need to hire illegals in the first place?
Christ.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 10:22 AM on March 30, 2005
Hi.
Minimum wage and operational safety standards are LAWS in this country for a reason.
Illegal immigrants are often worked for FAR less under far uglier circumstances, because they can be taken advantage of by companies that know that these immigrants are not aware of these laws.
Are you honestly suggesting that lower-class Americans should really sidestep the occupational protections of the law to compete with this sort of job market?
How about instead of everyone doing our damnedest to scream about illegal immigrants taking jobs (that most of us on this page wouldn't want anyway), we work to have it made law that illegals get the SAME pay as legal citizens, therefore, eliminating the need to hire illegals in the first place?
Christ.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 10:22 AM on March 30, 2005
At the risk of being a self-promoter I feel that I have to chime in to give props to a group I work with--San Diego City College's Pacific Nautilus team, who will be the first Community College team to compete in this event, and hopefully the first to beat MIT. I mean, if kids can do it, how hard can it be? Wish us luck!
*cough* Did you miss the reference to Cape Fear Community College in the article? (gminks, these are your "poor kids from rural North Carolina.")
posted by IshmaelGraves at 10:23 AM on March 30, 2005
*cough* Did you miss the reference to Cape Fear Community College in the article? (gminks, these are your "poor kids from rural North Carolina.")
posted by IshmaelGraves at 10:23 AM on March 30, 2005
Uther, have you ever tried to get a minimum wage law, or an overtime law, etc., enforced by the appropriate regulatory agencies? It doesn't happen. The only way these laws mean anything is if you can afford a lengthy civil suit. Try walking into a lawyer's office and telling him you want to sue your employer because he only pays you $3.00 an hour. You'll be laughed out. We don't have minimum wage laws in this country, we have imaginary guidelines to which we pretend people actually adhere to make ourselves feel better.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 10:29 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by IshmaelGraves at 10:29 AM on March 30, 2005
"I don’t care if you’re an illegal immigrant or a U.S. born citizen; if you’re motivated, you should be able to go to college, and if you’re not, you belong working in the gas station.
Btw, I think the scholarship for these boys is for an excellent cause, and will be donating to it."
I'm confused, Nematoma; these seem to cancel each other out.
The second statement is an admission that it doesn't hurt to have a hand-up when you're a poor kid and a hard worker. Not absolutely necessary, but a helpful thing society (or individuals) make possible in certain cases.
By the way, I'm not whining and I don't really think gminks was either. Like you, I busted my ass and made sure I got mine. But it shouldn't necessarily be that hard for everyone else who wants the ability to fulfill their intellectual potential, no? Just like you really don't believe these kids should be working at a gas station if they can't make it to school without the "crutch" of scholarship aid.
I'm much more interested in seeing these kids get citizenship (after all, they are minors who didn't make the decision to come illegally themselves) so they have more options available, whether it's community college or trade school (the choice of millions of poor strivers everywhere, bright or dull) or the Ivy League.
posted by availablelight at 10:36 AM on March 30, 2005
Btw, I think the scholarship for these boys is for an excellent cause, and will be donating to it."
I'm confused, Nematoma; these seem to cancel each other out.
The second statement is an admission that it doesn't hurt to have a hand-up when you're a poor kid and a hard worker. Not absolutely necessary, but a helpful thing society (or individuals) make possible in certain cases.
By the way, I'm not whining and I don't really think gminks was either. Like you, I busted my ass and made sure I got mine. But it shouldn't necessarily be that hard for everyone else who wants the ability to fulfill their intellectual potential, no? Just like you really don't believe these kids should be working at a gas station if they can't make it to school without the "crutch" of scholarship aid.
I'm much more interested in seeing these kids get citizenship (after all, they are minors who didn't make the decision to come illegally themselves) so they have more options available, whether it's community college or trade school (the choice of millions of poor strivers everywhere, bright or dull) or the Ivy League.
posted by availablelight at 10:36 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks doesn't seem to understand cause and effect relationships. If illegal immigrants had to be paid what citizens were paid there would be no incentive to hire illegal immigrants. Ways to implement include legislation which severely punishes employers who don't pay the minimum wage. Companies employ illegals because there is very little punishment for hiring them.
posted by abez at 10:41 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by abez at 10:41 AM on March 30, 2005
We're kind of working at cross purposes here. We're in a society where the ability to support yourself on a blue collar, no college required, job is diminishing. The office jobs that used to require a high school diploma now only take applicants who have at least some community college experience. The same goes for mechanics who have to know increasingly more about computer diagnostics, factory workers who have to repair expensive equipment, and so on. So fewer skilled crafts remain and more of the entry level jobs are those that require less education. You might not even have to speak the language.
gminks is right: there are a lot of these jobs that are employing (illegal) immigrants. Construction, factories and meat packing plants, even the cleaning duties around office buildings fall in this category. Are these the jobs you want? If college is a necessity for nearly everyone, we should be making it clear that it's a priority to provide equal access to everyone, not just the intelligent. The idea of rewarding the intelligent and motivated is to create a class of the best and brightest. As it is, the wealthy remain educated and some of those bright kids might be left behind.
Don't blame some motivated kids for doing well and being rewarded. Ask why you didn't have that motivated teacher and where your equivalent of this contest was. I've been places where I could figure out the answer easily: the smart ones leave, never to return. If you like where you're from and want the people to do better, then contribute to the effort. We might need more education across the board, but more than ever we need more skilled, creative people as well.
posted by mikeh at 11:25 AM on March 30, 2005
gminks is right: there are a lot of these jobs that are employing (illegal) immigrants. Construction, factories and meat packing plants, even the cleaning duties around office buildings fall in this category. Are these the jobs you want? If college is a necessity for nearly everyone, we should be making it clear that it's a priority to provide equal access to everyone, not just the intelligent. The idea of rewarding the intelligent and motivated is to create a class of the best and brightest. As it is, the wealthy remain educated and some of those bright kids might be left behind.
Don't blame some motivated kids for doing well and being rewarded. Ask why you didn't have that motivated teacher and where your equivalent of this contest was. I've been places where I could figure out the answer easily: the smart ones leave, never to return. If you like where you're from and want the people to do better, then contribute to the effort. We might need more education across the board, but more than ever we need more skilled, creative people as well.
posted by mikeh at 11:25 AM on March 30, 2005
I got a little wordy, but I think what I meant to say is that making a logical jump from "illegal immigrants are taking our low paying jobs and making them pay even less" to "our poor kids already can't go to college" is a little bit of a non-sequitur. There are a lot of issues in-between.
posted by mikeh at 11:29 AM on March 30, 2005
posted by mikeh at 11:29 AM on March 30, 2005
Wait a minute, wait a minute. After further inspection, I see through this "story".
"Could you help me buy the most best tampons?"
The woman broke into a big smile and led him to feminine hygiene. She handed him a box of O.B. ultra-absorbency.
Viral marketing in the form of a feel-good story. Shame on you, Wired!
posted by graventy at 11:29 AM on March 30, 2005
"Could you help me buy the most best tampons?"
The woman broke into a big smile and led him to feminine hygiene. She handed him a box of O.B. ultra-absorbency.
Viral marketing in the form of a feel-good story. Shame on you, Wired!
posted by graventy at 11:29 AM on March 30, 2005
I have absolutely no pity for people from the U.S. who claim that life has dealt them an unfair hand, and that they can’t get an education for whatever reason. There are hundreds of different opportunities out there, if you just get off your butt and find them. I don’t care if you’re an illegal immigrant or a U.S. born citizen; if you’re motivated, you should be able to go to college, and if you’re not, you belong working in the gas station.
Btw, I think the scholarship for these boys is for an excellent cause, and will be donating to it.
Right on Nematoda. I am 100% with you on that one... I came from the same background. Luckily I had parents who cared and weren't racist. I think that's the problem - a lot of poor American kids have horrible parents who could care less if they skip school and who also teach them that "minorities are taking all our jobs" instead of telling them to get off their lazy asses and never say never. It's a horrible cycle because then those kids get to be about 16 and start popping out children and teaching them the same damn things. I'm moving to New Zealand...
posted by shoppingforsanity at 11:33 AM on March 30, 2005
Btw, I think the scholarship for these boys is for an excellent cause, and will be donating to it.
Right on Nematoda. I am 100% with you on that one... I came from the same background. Luckily I had parents who cared and weren't racist. I think that's the problem - a lot of poor American kids have horrible parents who could care less if they skip school and who also teach them that "minorities are taking all our jobs" instead of telling them to get off their lazy asses and never say never. It's a horrible cycle because then those kids get to be about 16 and start popping out children and teaching them the same damn things. I'm moving to New Zealand...
posted by shoppingforsanity at 11:33 AM on March 30, 2005
First, stories like this always make me cry a little. Yay for underdogs.
On the illegal immigration front, it's a very tough position. I really dislike the argument of "they do jobs that Americans won't do," because it isn't that Americans won't do them, but that Americans won't do them at the crappy rates offered. In this way, illegal immigration pulls the bottom out of the wages market and that sucks. On the other hand, blaming the immigrants themselves is kind of stupid. They are making the most rational decisions for themselves. The best answer seems to be sanctioning the businesses that employ illegals while working at the same time to improve circumstances in Mexico and other emigrant nations so that people don't feel the need to leave. Of course, that will never happen because there's no political will and so poor people go on fighting other people. Sigh.
Also, I do wish people who busted their asses would have a little sympathy for those left behind. It's great that you did what you did, but isn't it kind of apalling that you have to be beyond perfect to get out? Making mistakes shouldn't be a privilege reserved for the middle-class and rich.
posted by dame at 11:39 AM on March 30, 2005
On the illegal immigration front, it's a very tough position. I really dislike the argument of "they do jobs that Americans won't do," because it isn't that Americans won't do them, but that Americans won't do them at the crappy rates offered. In this way, illegal immigration pulls the bottom out of the wages market and that sucks. On the other hand, blaming the immigrants themselves is kind of stupid. They are making the most rational decisions for themselves. The best answer seems to be sanctioning the businesses that employ illegals while working at the same time to improve circumstances in Mexico and other emigrant nations so that people don't feel the need to leave. Of course, that will never happen because there's no political will and so poor people go on fighting other people. Sigh.
Also, I do wish people who busted their asses would have a little sympathy for those left behind. It's great that you did what you did, but isn't it kind of apalling that you have to be beyond perfect to get out? Making mistakes shouldn't be a privilege reserved for the middle-class and rich.
posted by dame at 11:39 AM on March 30, 2005
What an exciting story - I found myself rooting for them and finally cheering at the end. Thanks for posting this.
As far as getting into college - it's a problem like any other, containing solutions within their reach. They could look at it like a leaky briefcase and find a tampon that would solve the problem.
I'm opposed to law-breaking to enter a country, unless fleeing persecution. But availablelight makes a good point: the parents broke the law, and the kids are living with the results of that decision. Should they have to? I'm still thinking about that one.
No one deserves anything (like citizenship). But I'm proud for these kids and feel they should be rewarded in some way. But in light of my upcoming mortgage payments I'm not going to contribute to their college fund. Still thinking . . .
posted by iwearredsocks at 11:39 AM on March 30, 2005
As far as getting into college - it's a problem like any other, containing solutions within their reach. They could look at it like a leaky briefcase and find a tampon that would solve the problem.
I'm opposed to law-breaking to enter a country, unless fleeing persecution. But availablelight makes a good point: the parents broke the law, and the kids are living with the results of that decision. Should they have to? I'm still thinking about that one.
No one deserves anything (like citizenship). But I'm proud for these kids and feel they should be rewarded in some way. But in light of my upcoming mortgage payments I'm not going to contribute to their college fund. Still thinking . . .
posted by iwearredsocks at 11:39 AM on March 30, 2005
The second statement is an admission that it doesn't hurt to have a hand-up when you're a poor kid and a hard worker. Not absolutely necessary, but a helpful thing society (or individuals) make possible in certain cases.
Well, availablelight, Nematoma did point out that there are scholarships involved in being able to go to college as a poor kid ("But instead of getting pregnant, doing drugs, or falling into a pit of self-pity, I spent my time getting good grades, participating in school clubs, looking for scholarships, and taking out a LOT of school loans in my own name"). That's part of being the hard worker - you FIND those scholarships, they don't find you. These hard-working kids FOUND a scholarship by beating the pants off of MIT students in an engineering challenge. Other kids find scholarships by writing well. Or proving math theorems. Or whatever. I DO NOT think that kids should get scholarships just because they are poor and semi-talented. They need to have the motivation to prove their talent and intellegence - and when they do that, they can find a way. Motivation is key.
posted by shoppingforsanity at 11:49 AM on March 30, 2005
Well, availablelight, Nematoma did point out that there are scholarships involved in being able to go to college as a poor kid ("But instead of getting pregnant, doing drugs, or falling into a pit of self-pity, I spent my time getting good grades, participating in school clubs, looking for scholarships, and taking out a LOT of school loans in my own name"). That's part of being the hard worker - you FIND those scholarships, they don't find you. These hard-working kids FOUND a scholarship by beating the pants off of MIT students in an engineering challenge. Other kids find scholarships by writing well. Or proving math theorems. Or whatever. I DO NOT think that kids should get scholarships just because they are poor and semi-talented. They need to have the motivation to prove their talent and intellegence - and when they do that, they can find a way. Motivation is key.
posted by shoppingforsanity at 11:49 AM on March 30, 2005
I work in graduate admissions and have heard faculty fight for smart students to get student visas, working with them and the consulates because "these are the kind of brains America needs"
there's your reason for ensuring these kids go to school right here.
But someone brought up the point that they could apply abroad, one assumes they are Mexican citizens, and probably could get full scholarships to study. The fund raising doesn't make sense, if you have 4 smart kids, you can offer scholarships to them even if they are international students. Rather than saying we need funds to send them to ASU and pay out of state tuition, you need an MIT or CAltech to step forward and say "hey, we'll take these star students on a full ride and work study program as international students"
posted by infini at 11:55 AM on March 30, 2005
there's your reason for ensuring these kids go to school right here.
But someone brought up the point that they could apply abroad, one assumes they are Mexican citizens, and probably could get full scholarships to study. The fund raising doesn't make sense, if you have 4 smart kids, you can offer scholarships to them even if they are international students. Rather than saying we need funds to send them to ASU and pay out of state tuition, you need an MIT or CAltech to step forward and say "hey, we'll take these star students on a full ride and work study program as international students"
posted by infini at 11:55 AM on March 30, 2005
They aren't taking your job. Your boss is taking your job and sending it to India. That's where your job is going. Not to a smart kid who happens to have a dirty mustache and speaks shitty english. Jobs should go to people who would survive on their own wits without technology, like these kids. Stupid people should parish.
posted by gunthersghost at 12:04 PM on March 30, 2005
posted by gunthersghost at 12:04 PM on March 30, 2005
I'm pretty sure most stupid people already have a parish, at least from a Marxist perspective.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:33 PM on March 30, 2005
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:33 PM on March 30, 2005
sure, they can build a robot... but how will they do on their standardized tests next month?
(great story)
posted by RockyChrysler at 2:18 PM on March 30, 2005
(great story)
posted by RockyChrysler at 2:18 PM on March 30, 2005
I didn't find it condescending. I thought it had a real "Stand and Deliver" feel to it. Rather than a Disney Movie I imagine one of those gritty independent movies where half the dialogue is in spanish (subtitles prefered) with a hip-hop soundtrack.
You'd have to have the guy who was brought along just because he's strong be the one to come up with some great idea at the climax and save the day so we remember that we should look past appearances and that big guys can be bright too. (that's just the 6'9" guys perspective)
posted by Megafly at 2:51 PM on March 30, 2005
You'd have to have the guy who was brought along just because he's strong be the one to come up with some great idea at the climax and save the day so we remember that we should look past appearances and that big guys can be bright too. (that's just the 6'9" guys perspective)
posted by Megafly at 2:51 PM on March 30, 2005
I didn't find it condescending. I thought it had a real "Stand and Deliver" feel to it.
I didn't either. I thought the tone was fine. (And, btw, I'm Mexican.) I really like these kids. A check is on the way.
posted by vacapinta at 3:25 PM on March 30, 2005
I didn't either. I thought the tone was fine. (And, btw, I'm Mexican.) I really like these kids. A check is on the way.
posted by vacapinta at 3:25 PM on March 30, 2005
Cool story, thanks.
"A society should not be judged on how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals" - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
posted by quiet at 3:37 PM on March 30, 2005
"A society should not be judged on how it treats its outstanding citizens but by how it treats its criminals" - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
posted by quiet at 3:37 PM on March 30, 2005
Nematoda said:
"Can you hear this? It’s the sound of the smallest violin in the world playing a song for the poor people (our own people) in the U.S. who are too poor and too lazy to stop crying about their lives for a moment to actually do something to get an education."
whoa, hold on. the US's poor aren't necessarily living in poverty because they're lazy; for anyone who's of that opinion i recommend taking a break from the horatio alger novels and reading this book to gain some perspective on these peoples' lives. i'm not saying that these four boys from phoenix haven't accomplished something incredible against the odds, but a US citizenship isn't a free pass to unlimited upward mobility for anyone not "too lazy to stop crying about their lives."
posted by radiosig at 6:09 PM on March 30, 2005
"Can you hear this? It’s the sound of the smallest violin in the world playing a song for the poor people (our own people) in the U.S. who are too poor and too lazy to stop crying about their lives for a moment to actually do something to get an education."
whoa, hold on. the US's poor aren't necessarily living in poverty because they're lazy; for anyone who's of that opinion i recommend taking a break from the horatio alger novels and reading this book to gain some perspective on these peoples' lives. i'm not saying that these four boys from phoenix haven't accomplished something incredible against the odds, but a US citizenship isn't a free pass to unlimited upward mobility for anyone not "too lazy to stop crying about their lives."
posted by radiosig at 6:09 PM on March 30, 2005
"You're very comfortable with the metric system," Swean observed.
"I grew up in Mexico, sir," Oscar said.
Loved that line.
When I was on a robotics competition team at my alma mater, a small liberal arts college, we noticed that most of our competitors at a major AI and robotics conference were mostly no-name schools by reputation: the University of Somecity in Portugal, the Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, etc.; a few smaller schools, and us of course. Where were the CMUs and the MITs?
Conventional wisdom at the competition was that the big schools had very little to gain and a lot to lose by competing. Most of the competitions didn't present especially difficult or new research problems---they were really about integrating existing systems effectively for a very specific (and often rather staged and unnatural) task. Consequently, the reasoning went, they didn't bring any graduate students any closer to finishing their theses, and they didn't really help faculty get any grant money. On the downside, if they lost, then "Podunk County Community College Beats MIT Eggheads" would be trumpeted all over the media, as it has been here.
I don't mean to detract from the achievements of these youngsters---it sounds like they were more resourceful and even more rigorous than the MIT team. The article makes it sound like they asked a lot of questions and did lots of experimentation while the other entrants relied on their expertise---as a result, they innovated where the "pros" got hamstrung.
But there's little doubt in my mind that if MIT had really, really wanted to win this competition, no question, they could've done it just by sheer amount of resources, as could have Lockheed-Martin or even Kraft Foods if they had felt like it. "MIT" here was probably represented by a small cluster of (yes, well-funded) grad students and faculty who are probably taking flack (or at least a really stiff good-natured ribbing) for losing to these guys. It's not like this was their Apollo program or anything.
It's still a great big accomplishment for the high school guys. So why am I bringing this up? It's because I wish it were possible right now for the big schools to lose a competition like this without everyone and their grandma making a big deal out of it. One of the chief reasons for these contests, IMHO, is to share and demonstrate robotics techniques, and to the point that there are open research questions in these areas, the more solutions, the better.
Now don't get me started on the rather subjective judging that often seems to happen at these things (and indeed worked in our favor way back when).
posted by tss at 6:36 PM on March 30, 2005
"I grew up in Mexico, sir," Oscar said.
Loved that line.
When I was on a robotics competition team at my alma mater, a small liberal arts college, we noticed that most of our competitors at a major AI and robotics conference were mostly no-name schools by reputation: the University of Somecity in Portugal, the Sharif University of Technology in Tehran, etc.; a few smaller schools, and us of course. Where were the CMUs and the MITs?
Conventional wisdom at the competition was that the big schools had very little to gain and a lot to lose by competing. Most of the competitions didn't present especially difficult or new research problems---they were really about integrating existing systems effectively for a very specific (and often rather staged and unnatural) task. Consequently, the reasoning went, they didn't bring any graduate students any closer to finishing their theses, and they didn't really help faculty get any grant money. On the downside, if they lost, then "Podunk County Community College Beats MIT Eggheads" would be trumpeted all over the media, as it has been here.
I don't mean to detract from the achievements of these youngsters---it sounds like they were more resourceful and even more rigorous than the MIT team. The article makes it sound like they asked a lot of questions and did lots of experimentation while the other entrants relied on their expertise---as a result, they innovated where the "pros" got hamstrung.
But there's little doubt in my mind that if MIT had really, really wanted to win this competition, no question, they could've done it just by sheer amount of resources, as could have Lockheed-Martin or even Kraft Foods if they had felt like it. "MIT" here was probably represented by a small cluster of (yes, well-funded) grad students and faculty who are probably taking flack (or at least a really stiff good-natured ribbing) for losing to these guys. It's not like this was their Apollo program or anything.
It's still a great big accomplishment for the high school guys. So why am I bringing this up? It's because I wish it were possible right now for the big schools to lose a competition like this without everyone and their grandma making a big deal out of it. One of the chief reasons for these contests, IMHO, is to share and demonstrate robotics techniques, and to the point that there are open research questions in these areas, the more solutions, the better.
Now don't get me started on the rather subjective judging that often seems to happen at these things (and indeed worked in our favor way back when).
posted by tss at 6:36 PM on March 30, 2005
That we'd rather have smart kids using their gifts to make our lives better than dumb kids who by luck of birth are getting a gift they haven't earned? .
Insert Bush joke here: _______.
posted by a_day_late at 6:43 PM on March 30, 2005
Insert Bush joke here: _______.
posted by a_day_late at 6:43 PM on March 30, 2005
Why is it that some people applaud those that are breaking the law when it is convenient for them/makes them feel good?
Does saying "we need to help these VICTIMS OF OUR AWEFUL LAWS ON IMMIGRATION!!!" help rid some of their white, suburban guilt? Is it even easier for those that use this justification because this particular group beat out those spoiled, rich, opportunity-given, law-abiding, evil-doers at MIT?
I think I get it now...this group HAS POTENTIAL! They're clever....we NEED more like them! Laws be damned!
Silly me for letting little things like law/established immigration process cloud my support of a surefire Disney made-for-tv movie.
posted by ayukna at 9:27 PM on March 30, 2005
Does saying "we need to help these VICTIMS OF OUR AWEFUL LAWS ON IMMIGRATION!!!" help rid some of their white, suburban guilt? Is it even easier for those that use this justification because this particular group beat out those spoiled, rich, opportunity-given, law-abiding, evil-doers at MIT?
I think I get it now...this group HAS POTENTIAL! They're clever....we NEED more like them! Laws be damned!
Silly me for letting little things like law/established immigration process cloud my support of a surefire Disney made-for-tv movie.
posted by ayukna at 9:27 PM on March 30, 2005
ayukna, its a human interest story and these kids are prisoners of their fate. Have a heart. Nobody is calling for a revolution.
posted by vacapinta at 11:48 PM on March 30, 2005
posted by vacapinta at 11:48 PM on March 30, 2005
Stupid people should parish.
So, you advocate a faith-based solution then?
posted by stet at 12:43 AM on March 31, 2005
So, you advocate a faith-based solution then?
posted by stet at 12:43 AM on March 31, 2005
Arguably, they didn't break the law. Their parents did when they brought them here. I can't fault them for that.
Also, this is not a robot. This is a remote-controlled submarine. It kicks the crap out of anything I could build, but it doesn't fit my definition of a robot.
My wife is finishing up her Master's at ASU now -- and from what she's told me about her experience there, I'm not surprised ASU isn't offering these kids scholarships. Unfortunately, that's pretty mush their only choice. MIT, Harvard, etc would be nice, but these kids need to be here with their families -- and ASU is the only choice.
posted by crawl at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2005
Also, this is not a robot. This is a remote-controlled submarine. It kicks the crap out of anything I could build, but it doesn't fit my definition of a robot.
My wife is finishing up her Master's at ASU now -- and from what she's told me about her experience there, I'm not surprised ASU isn't offering these kids scholarships. Unfortunately, that's pretty mush their only choice. MIT, Harvard, etc would be nice, but these kids need to be here with their families -- and ASU is the only choice.
posted by crawl at 7:48 AM on March 31, 2005
I have an uncle from Mexico, now nearing his 70s and a US citizen. He first came to this country illegally as a teenager and worked for about a year pumping gas, but then decided that there was more to life than that. So he went back to Mexico, got an education, and returned to the US as an MD. He then joined the US Air Force, became a successful surgeon, and established his own chain of clinics here. Before he retired, he probably made more money in a year than I'll see in 10 (he probably still does now, too). If these kids really want to live the great American dream, then they should see that there are opportunities for talented, motivated people to legally realize their potential. Just saying.
posted by Hal Mumkin at 6:52 AM on April 1, 2005
posted by Hal Mumkin at 6:52 AM on April 1, 2005
I don't know if anyone will see this, but I sent email to the address listed in the Wired article, and just got this response:
Carl Hayden Robot Teamposted by MrMoonPie at 6:53 AM on April 2, 2005
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:06:25 -0700
Thanks for emailing us.
The La Vida Robot has generated a lot of attention. I received about 300 emails and I plan to answer each one individually, but many asked for the same information, especially if there was a Paypal account so please forgive me for this mass mailing.
Paypal
It has taken quite a bit of time, but our school district has finally entered the internet age with it’s first Paypal account. You can access it through the Wired magazine web site:
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/donate.html
or directly:
https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=Partnership%40phxhs%2ek12%2eaz%2eus&item_name=La%20Vida%20Robot%20Scholarship%20Fund&no_shipping=0&no_note=1&tax=0¤cy_code=USD
Scholarship Information:
This is a Phoenix Union Partnership entity that can accept money, issue receipts and is tax deductible. It is for the “La Vida Robot” Scholarship fund. The restrictions are:
If the funds indicate it is to go to "La Vida Robot", the funds can only be disbursed by the approval of Allan Cameron OR Fredi Lajvardi.
Verbally we have agreed that the funds are to be disbursed only to the four students/alumni mentioned in the Wired article "La Vida Robot" (April 2005), Cristian Arcega, Lorenzo Santillan, Oscar Vazquez, and/or Luis Aranda to be used for post secondary education.
Written guidelines will be formalized within the next week. Generally, one forth all funds will be originally allocated to each student/alumni for educational expenses. Cameron or Lajvardi will decide what educational expenses are appropriate. After a period of time (e.g. 3 years) of academic inactivity, a student's allocation will revert to be equally divided among the remaining group.
The purpose is to help finance the kids’ educational activities to earn a degree or employment skills until the funds are exhausted.
There is no overhead or administration costs except for the charges by Paypal (2.9%+$0.30 on each Paypal deposit).
The Robot Club aka Flacon Robotics
Now, about the robot team. The ROV competition is only a small part of what we do. Fredi Lajvardi and I have always had "clubs" at school so we could work with the kids on project that may not exactly fit in a particular classes curriculum. I have had the Amateur Radio Club, KC7KFF, for 13 years or so. Fredi had the kids build and race electric cars. They were quite successful. We still continue the activities.
However, four years ago we decided to enter the FIRST robotics competition http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/
Just two weeks ago, the team was awarded the highest award at the Arizona Regional competition, the Chairman's Award. It was presented to us by the inventor and founder of FIRST, Dean Kamen. We will be going to Atlanta GA with 13 of the students on the team to compete for the national title. There will be 300+ schools, 10000 people all cheering and celebrating engineering! It's really something!
We also build a pumpkin throwing trebuchet in the fall and our high school kids mentor six FIRST Lego robot teams in neighborhood schools. The Arizona State Lego robot championship is held at our school.
The point of all of this is not to build the killer robot, but to expose our kids to the excitement of engineering and the value of an education. We have a few engineers who come and help us. The kids become friends with them. Except for teachers, it is usually the first person they ever knew with a college degree. It really makes a difference. Grades and attendance usually improve.
What we really want to see is kids starting to look at math, science and engineering as something attractive and exciting, not subjects to be avoided. The culture in our country is not promoting too many positive values. When we give talks we like to quiz the audience about a sports figure or someone in the entertainment industry. It's amazing the wealth of knowledge we have on so many people in the "amusement industry". But when we ask the audience to name an inventor -- who is alive, it is usually very silent. We don't even ask for the name of a female inventor, or a Hispanic inventor. The point being, Who are the role models for our young people? What do they see on television on in the movies? How are scientists portrayed? We are really trying to change our culture.
So, while the story in Wired was about four students, there are dozens of students who are equally talented and dedicated. The real story is that there are probably hundreds of very talented young men and women at our school that we are not inspiring or who give up because they see little value in a high school diploma. There are a lot of closed doors when a person is undocumented.
Conclusion
Fredi and I (and Sam and Marcos and all the other teachers) appreciate all the praise that people have sent us. The author, Josh Davis did a fantastic job and we have all became fast friends with him and the photo crew and editors of Wired. I think the majority of teachers that I have ever met work very hard and do wonders to raise all of our kids. We really are not doing anything that millions of other teacher are not doing. However, I don’t think anyone can possibly be having more fun than we are having!
I’ll keep you posted. And I really will answer each eamil I received. It will just take a while.
Thanks,
Allan
Allan Cameron
Teacher, Computer Science
Amateur Radio Club, KC7KFF
Falcon Robotics team 842
Carl Hayden High School
3333 W. Roosevelt Ave
Phoenix, AZ 85009
Just got another update:
This has been a busy few weeks for the Carl Hayden Robotics Club. The April Wired article “La Vida Robot” http://wired-vig.wired.com/wired/archive/13.04/robot.html which highlighted four of our students has produced an outpouring of support for the four kids as well as congratulations for Fredi Lajvardi, Sam Alexander and myself. We will see where this all leads.posted by MrMoonPie at 8:03 AM on April 18, 2005
Right now we are packing for our trip to Atlanta for the FIRST robotics championship. http://www.usfirst.org/ A few weeks ago we competed in Arizona and we were awarded the highest award, the Chairman’s Award:
“The FIRST Robotics Competition is about much more than the mechanics of building a robot or winning a competitive event. It is about the impact FIRST has on those who participate in the program and the impact of FIRST on the community at large. The FIRST mission is to change the way America’s young people regard science and technology and to inspire an appreciation for the real-life rewards and career opportunities in these fields.
The Chairman’s Award was created to keep the central focus of the FIRST Robotics Competition as our ultimate goal for transforming the culture in ways that will inspire greater levels of respect and honor for science and technology, as well as encourage more of today’s youth to become scientists, engineers, and technologists.
The Chairman’s Award represents the spirit of FIRST. It honors the team that best represents a model for other teams to emulate and which embodies the goals and purpose of FIRST. It remains the most prestigious team award FIRST presents.”
We are departing Phoenix this Wednesday with 13 students and a few chaperones. Josh Davis, the author of the Wired article and friend, will meet us there. I think there will be some other media coverage there also. I will email our experiences when we are in Atlanta.
Speaking of media, we have received quite a few movie offers. I’m thrilled to report Warner Brothers has bought the rights to the ROV story. They plan to make a feature theatrical film. The producer is John Wells (or West Wing, E.R.) The current game around school is who should play everyone. (I think Sean Connery should play me. “Cameron, Allan Cameron”. It will take years, but what a surrealistic experience.
For those who have been asking about the four kids: I think they will all get the higher education they wish. They have received over $44,000 in scholarship money to split and many offers of assistance. Most likely they will choose local community colleges and/or Arizona State University. I know they will be successful because they have hundreds (if not thousands) of people encouraging them. Their world has expanded a hundredfold.
A lot of people ask what they can do to help. The article mentions the “Dream Act”, federal legislation that is introduced every year that allows undocumented children who have been in the U.S for years and graduate from high school and have no criminal record to apply for temporary residency. If they go to college or the military, they can become permanent residents. It will take a lot of people writing to their congressman encouraging them to support the bill. These kids already are Americans. They were brought to the U.S. by their parents; they attended our school, play baseball, join the Scouts and most go to church every week. As young adults they will get married, have children and will be contributing to our society. These are exactly the people we want to belong in our neighborhoods, not drive them away.
http://www.nilc.org/immlawpolicy/DREAM/DREAM%20Judiciary%20Sumry_040504.pdf
This morning, National Public Radio’s “Weekend Edition, Saturday” played an interview with us. Susan Stamberg interviewed us and it can be heard at:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4603454
We are building our current ROV to compete in the June MATE ROV competition in June. http://www.marinetech.org/rov_competition/2005/index.php Not only will we be competing against MIT, but a robotics and Artificial Intelligence powerhouse, Carnegie Mellon University will be joining the competition.
I should be sending the next report from Atlanta, GA. Thanks for all your support.
Hi everyone, I just found this site on Google and would just like to let you know that I graduated with Oscar and Luis last year at Carl Hayden and know the entire team personally. I have a few comments on the writing of the article, apparently several of you didn't like it too much but I'll get to that later. Anyway, if you have any questions about the team, please let me know, I'd be happy to set the record straight. Many times, words are twisted through articles but I found this one to be incredibly correct.
posted by SistrWmn15 at 6:30 PM on April 23, 2005
posted by SistrWmn15 at 6:30 PM on April 23, 2005
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Also, this is some pretty breathless writing... Did they actualy tell him they "got high on the pungent fumes, and dubbed their new creation Stinky."?
posted by delmoi at 7:11 AM on March 30, 2005