Let the American Boycott of CO2-Denying Corporations Begin
June 1, 2001 4:44 AM Subscribe
posted by Mocata at 5:05 AM on June 1, 2001
Friedman's in dreamland. Kyoto is dead, and has been dead for years ... has been from the day it was created, really. The only difference here is that Bush had the balls to say so publicly, instead of letting it die slowly of neglect behind the scenes while publicly lying about its RSN implementation as every other country's leader has been doing (especially in Europe). It will never be ratified. It has never been ratified ANYWHERE. It is total BS, and everyone knows this, including Friedman.
BTW, Friedman provides no proof that this so-called grass roots campaign is meeting with any actual success. Is it? (Not that it would here regardless.)
posted by aaron at 6:41 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by aaron at 6:43 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by MrImpossible at 6:46 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by MrMoonPie at 6:59 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by tingley at 7:03 AM on June 1, 2001
aaron: Is Ari Fleischer right to assert that "the American people's use of energy is a reflection of the strength of our economy, of the way of life that the American people have come to enjoy"?
If so, the US rejection of Kyoto has nothing to do with its inherent benefits or weaknesses, but simply that Americans aren't going to be made to look like pinko commie liberal softies by switching off their air conditioning every so often.
posted by holgate at 9:20 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by ParisParamus at 9:23 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by tingley at 10:41 AM on June 1, 2001
Please ignore him and let's continue to have a REAL conversation. I think you were hoping for a discussion on how to change our world in a positive way that takes into consideration "real life facts" such as :
Fossils are for fossils and cause global warming.
Corporate America owns our government and needs challenged by individuals using whatever means we can.
Conservation is not only virtuous but eminently sensible.
Anyway, that's the idea folks!
posted by nofundy at 10:55 AM on June 1, 2001
Yes. He made it quite clear that the right to use energy without feeling guilty is not incompatible with common-sense conservation: "What we need to do is make certain that we're able to get those resources in an efficient way, in a way that also emphasizes protecting the environment and conservation, into the hands of consumers so they can make the choices that they want to make as they live their lives day to day."
Besides, Fleischer was responding to an intentionally loaded claim from a liberal reporter that the solution to all energy problems, and the ONLY solution, was conservation conservation conservation. His statement says more about his ability to think fast on his feet than anything else.
if the pro-oil stance of the present administration wasn't so patent...
What does "pro-oil" mean? Is there a way for the administration to be oil-neutral in your view? Or is it one of those things where if they're not spending every moment trying to find ways to cease all oil usage everywhere, they're merely lackeys of Big Oil?
posted by aaron at 10:57 AM on June 1, 2001
"Pro- oil" means favoring or supporting the oil corporations and the use of oil resources even when it's counter-productive to do so. It means a slavish devotion to the notion of oil, now and forever, simply because at one time and to some extent currently it's extremely useful. It means not allowing for or recognizing for the possibility that the long-term growth and success of America and the human species may need to be made with far less dependence on oil. It means never being able to see beyond this quarter's profits or this campaign cycle's donations to recognize a long-term disaster in the making.
Jesus, you can be really short-sighted and simple-minded sometimes.
There's a big lie out there that businesses act in their own best interest. This is untrue. Oil is a finite resource, and in large amounts of usage does cause a decidely negative environmental impact that may include the eventual decimation of our "American" standard of living, among others. In that climate (no pun intended) the oil companies will have a hard time moving their product. That day may be 10 years off, or 50. However, estimates of our global oil resources still only last a few decades, far less if the rest of the world achieved the American standard of usage and lifestyle, in which case we may have only 10 or so.
If nothing else, the market will be fair- if that day comes, and the oil is scarce, the market will scream demand for, and receive, energy supply completely unrelated to oil.
Like I said, businesses don't look out for their best interests, any more than teenagers who can't see beyond tomorrow....
posted by hincandenza at 11:14 AM on June 1, 2001
the right wingnut response you received from Aaron is due to the sarcasm applied to his God: Rush, the pigboy.
What are you talking about? Is it a wingnut response to criticize the Kyoto treaty? As Aaron pointed out, it never had a chance of passage in the US. Clinton just sat on it for years because he didn't want to be associated with its dismissal.
Paris, if the real issue is the administration's stance on CO2, then why are we arguing about Kyoto?
[hincandenza]
you can be really short-sighted and simple-minded sometimes
Wow, this is out of the blue. Because he asked for a definition of pro-oil and because he disagrees with you about the current administration's stance on oil, you blast him personally?
If nothing else, the market will be fair- if that day comes, and the oil is scarce, the market will scream demand for, and receive, energy supply completely unrelated to oil.
Isn't this kinda the whole point of the administration's position? There's lots of oil now, so we can wait to spend money on other sources of energy? I mean, I don't really agree that that is the best policy, but it also probably won't totally destroy the planet anymore than we were on track to do under Clinton and Gore.
Businesses may not necessarily make all the right decisions, but who does? The real purpose of a public company is to make money for its shareholders. I think the oil companies are doing a fabulous job of that lately.
posted by daveadams at 11:33 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by norm at 11:52 AM on June 1, 2001
posted by UncleFes at 11:59 AM on June 1, 2001
Well, we know how Exxon Mobil and Enron do their business, and it has more to do with Machiavelli than Adam Smith. Unless there's a chapter on bribes in the Wealth of Nations that isn't in my edition.
See, Fleischer's statement comes across as logically inconsistent. Yes, it's the job of government to encourage efficiency, and provide options that include conservation; but isn't that incompatible with a belief that energy use is an index of economic fecundity? In fact, shouldn't the last couple of years suggest the follies of a market driven by indices rather than fundamentals?
The point being, if you like, that Fleischer is saying that he advocates fundamental analysis of the energy question, but then comes across like a momentum investor on CNBC, looking at an ever-upwards graph and assuming that it can never go down.
posted by holgate at 12:29 PM on June 1, 2001
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posted by ParisParamus at 4:47 AM on June 1, 2001