June 12, 2001
10:35 AM Subscribe
posted by rebeccablood at 10:45 AM on June 12, 2001
I think the bush camp greatly fears running up against him in the next presidential race.
posted by dong_resin at 10:49 AM on June 12, 2001
interesting.
posted by saralovering at 10:52 AM on June 12, 2001
posted by crawl at 10:53 AM on June 12, 2001
They voted for a conservative (which McCain was once) and they no longer have one. McCain's slide to the left may have caused the media to swoon, but he's seriously jeopardized his chances at re-election.
posted by ljromanoff at 11:04 AM on June 12, 2001
He didn't get invited to the White House so he quits the party! Ridiculous!
posted by ljromanoff at 11:05 AM on June 12, 2001
interesting.
No, they're saying they voted for someone with a certain political philosophy that they shared and their representative no longer represents that.
posted by ljromanoff at 11:06 AM on June 12, 2001
posted by tolkhan at 11:06 AM on June 12, 2001
posted by Rastafari at 11:15 AM on June 12, 2001
posted by saralovering at 11:16 AM on June 12, 2001
So now he's evolving to continue to represent his consistency? I thought he was an independent thinker.
posted by ljromanoff at 11:18 AM on June 12, 2001
the two are not mutually exclusive.
posted by saralovering at 11:26 AM on June 12, 2001
His ideology seems to have changed drastically since he was governor, and many people that I know who voted from him are shocked at how far right he's become.
ljromanoff, you've made 4 of the 13 comments in this thread. Maybe you might want to wait a few minutes, let a few comments show up, and then debate us all together. Just a suggestion
posted by jennak at 11:31 AM on June 12, 2001
True enough, so why do you dismiss those who wish to recall McCain as opposed to an independent thinker? They wanted an indepedent conservative thinker, which they once had and no longer have. I don't think they'll succeed, but it's an expression of democratic action just like McCain's election was.
I suspect that most of the criticism that this move has gotten/will get on MeFi is due to the political leanings of the people in question rather than the action itself. If Kennedy suddenly went all right wing (oh, to dream) on us and a recall drive started in Mass., the MeFi community would probably be thrilled.
posted by ljromanoff at 11:33 AM on June 12, 2001
posted by straight at 11:33 AM on June 12, 2001
On the other hand, this may well be instigated from outside the state.
posted by aflakete at 11:34 AM on June 12, 2001
His ideology seems to have changed drastically since he was governor, and many people that I know who voted from him are shocked at how far right he's become.
ljromanoff, you've made 4 of the 13 comments in this thread. Maybe you might want to wait a few minutes, let a few comments show up, and then debate us all together. Just a suggestion
To respond to your second comment first, your comment appeared while I was replying to Sara above - making it impossible for me to reply to both at the same time. Which amuses me as you've just proved the point I made in my last comment with your first suggestion.
posted by ljromanoff at 11:36 AM on June 12, 2001
Clinton won AZ in '96. Now, I am not foolish, I realize that's partially because Perot was in the race. But Perot pulled from both camps, took on the very left anti -NAFTA position. And Perot and McCain seem cut out of the same cloth.
posted by brucec at 11:40 AM on June 12, 2001
People are so desperate for a politician they can believe in that any pol who seems to have half a backbone is instantly promoted to Hero of the People. If my fellow liberals think Dubya's a curse, they ought not go looking for McCain to be any better.
I wouldn't put a lot of stock in a recall movement based on some disgruntled conservatives piqued about a party snub. When was the last time a sitting U.S. Senator was recalled? Certainly not any time in my conscious memory.
posted by briank at 11:43 AM on June 12, 2001
That said, if a substantial number of voters don't feel that McCain is representing them properly, they've every right to call for a recall vote, to see if the population of the state as a whole agrees with them. And there's clearly more at stake here than just a picnic--McCain has expressed some unorthodox opinions that might very well disturb more conservative voters.
As for how liberals would react to a Democrat becoming more and more conservative--well, it's been happening, and people have complained (even to the point of voting for Nader for president). At the same time, though, I think we realize (as do most conservatives) that a candidate won't agree with us on everything, and that the sort of people that actually get elected tend to be more moderate than the extremes of either party. Personally, I'd be delighted to see everyone in the senate become either an anarchist or a Marxist--but I wouldn't expect them to stay in office long if they did.
(BTW, brucec: opposition to NAFTA was, oddly enough, an issue that the far left and far right often had in common, against the center.)
posted by moss at 11:48 AM on June 12, 2001
In the McCain case, though, what a load of BS. This will come back to haunt Ariz. Republicans, and the party in general, so bad if they succeed in getting a recall vote.
posted by raysmj at 11:58 AM on June 12, 2001
I resent that, LJR. I said that Zell's ideology has changed. You're the one who contradicted yourself: you said that AZers want to vote him out because "they wanted an indepedent conservative thinker" and apparently he's not one any longer.
Wait....I'm confused. He sometimes votes independently, and this no longer makes him an independent conservative thinker? So what they really want is a Republican whipping boy, right?
Don't kid yourself, LJR (or any liberal who thinks McCain for president is a good idea), -- McCain is a true champion of campaign finance reform, but he still adheres to a very conservative ideology. McCain has hardly "gone all [left]" on you.
posted by jennak at 11:58 AM on June 12, 2001
posted by raysmj at 12:03 PM on June 12, 2001
Someone chimed in that there is apparently no constitional provision for recalling a US Senator. That senators must be either voted out of office, expelled by two-thirds of their peers, or die.
posted by crunchland at 12:10 PM on June 12, 2001
I personally think the more conservatives do to antagonize McCain, the more the moderate-to-leftists will rally behind him. Republicans will be perceived as returning to mean-spiritedness just when they are trying out their new slogan (compassionate conservative).
My opinion of McCain hasn't been finished yet. One one hand I admire him for standing up to the bullies of his party, and pushing for things he believes in even though the leadership doesn't. However, he lost points in my view when he retreated on the confederate flag issue in South Carolina. During the campaign he said he thought the flag was a symbol of heritage, but then after he quit campaigning he admitted that he didn't really think that but said so in order to win votes. Well, I admire people who will admit when they do something wrong, but when one admits to saying something to get elected (I know they all do) when they are running as a truth-teller than it makes it difficult for me to respect them.
But, I would certainly prefer McCain over any of the other folks the Republicans put up for election.
posted by terrapin at 12:11 PM on June 12, 2001
Please don't tempt the Republicans.
posted by dong_resin at 12:21 PM on June 12, 2001
McCain was one of only two Republicans to vote against the Bush tax cut, supports a patients' bill of rights opposed by the White House, supports a bill to tighten a gun-show loophole and criticized Bush for opposing the Kyoto treaty.
I think it's entirely possible he's making a significant change in his politics. At the very least, he's trying like hell to put himself closer to the middle than Bush, which seems odd to me unless he's seriously considering an independent presidential run in 2004.
posted by rcade at 12:22 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by brucec at 12:23 PM on June 12, 2001
"senators must be either voted out of office, expelled by two-thirds of their peers, or die."
Please don't tempt the Republicans.
That's really cheap.
posted by ljromanoff at 12:25 PM on June 12, 2001
Presumably want they want is someone with a conservative ideology, which McCain no longer appears to have.
posted by ljromanoff at 12:26 PM on June 12, 2001
The effort against McCain will only serve to strengthen his likeability, and make Republicans look partisan. It will force Bush to either come out against the recall or be considered part of it. I actually hope they go ahead with this.
posted by brucec at 12:29 PM on June 12, 2001
That's really cheap.
Yes, but it's still funny. Don't get all serious on us, now.
-Mars
posted by Mars Saxman at 12:38 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by Dreama at 12:40 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by jnthnjng at 1:06 PM on June 12, 2001
when i registered to vote, the only choice i was given was to join the GOP or the Dems. i wasn't told i could register as an independent, and i didn't *know* any better (i was a stupid little 17 year old). i flipped a coin. GOP won. thus, i and my party had very disimilar ideological views. but at least i got to vote in some primaries before i left them.
posted by tolkhan at 2:03 PM on June 12, 2001
And, to reiterate the point, McCain's voting record in the Senate is rather damn conservative. If his politics are shifting (I almost said "evolving" - oh, how biased of me!), then well, you know, them's the breaks. It's just fun to see Dubya's panties in a bunch. You know, the one with little pink flowers on them.
posted by solistrato at 4:11 PM on June 12, 2001
Um- have you read Freerepublic.com lately? Many of their posters are really quite "out there", as this op-ed on OnlineJournal.com discusses(not to be confused with WSJ's opinionjournal.com). Take note of the Freepers conduct in the whole Chuy's situation, posting that manager's personal information along with rather threatening suggestions as to what should be done to her....
Funny story:
'bout 13, 14 years ago, say 1987, 1988, I'm walking out of Fenway Park after a Red Sox game and there's a gangly bespectacled petitioner standing in the middle of the sidewalk. He's got a clipboard for signatures, and a nylon windbreaker with a big Space Shuttle-style logo on it. It seems readily apparent he's trying to drum up popular support for more NASA funding... but he uses the most unfortunate slogan, "Return to the moon". You can imagine my bemusement to then witness a squat, mustachioed fellow in an ill-fitting musclecar tee-shirt shouting at him as he walks by, "GO TO HELL, YOU F***IN' MOONIE!".
Ahhh... Good times, good times...
Oh yeah, the point being that the Washington Times is owned by Reverend Moon, a decidely pro-Bush and right-wing 'newspaper'. Whether this story is more wishful thinking than anything else, or whether these quoted AZ Republicans represent anything larger than a girl scout troup in realistic political force (much less questioning how genuine their "grass roots" movement is)... well, you be the judge.
posted by hincandenza at 4:31 PM on June 12, 2001
Um- have you read Freerepublic.com lately?
No, I never read the Free Republic. Don't really know what this has to do with an anti-GOP cheap shot on MeFi.
Oh yeah, the point being that the Washington Times is owned by Reverend Moon, a decidely pro-Bush and right-wing newspaper
Ah, yes, the Washington Times - the only newspaper that the left wing will admit is biased. Anyway, I heard about this story well before the Washington Times reported it. It's not like they dug this recall effort up from under some Arizona rock.
posted by ljromanoff at 4:43 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by machaus at 5:01 PM on June 12, 2001
Oh, I don't know. I think a certain amount of ideological consistency in a political party is a good thing - at least one knows what one is getting. Of course, that would also mean we would need more than two major parties.
posted by ljromanoff at 5:05 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by dhartung at 5:26 PM on June 12, 2001
Not sure why you're singling me out here. I could mention at this point that you've actually admitting to liking the American Doctor Who movie, but that would probably be hitting below the belt.
posted by ljromanoff at 6:14 PM on June 12, 2001
There's just no reason for them to get out of bed if they can't hate somebody, is there?
If Arizona does not want John McCain anymore, maybe somebody else does...
It would be just like today's wacky GOP to see it's most popular member removed from office just because he won't fall in line with all of the other sheep.
America will be more than happy to vote for John McCain after four years of The Chimp.
Actually, America will be more than happy to vote for John Ritter after four years of The Chimp.
posted by BarneyFifesBullet at 9:11 PM on June 12, 2001
posted by hincandenza at 9:24 PM on June 12, 2001
..."duh-err!"
posted by ZachsMind at 1:26 AM on June 13, 2001
Well, if he privately hates him, then get a rope. Bush has been in office for five months. McCain has only made a couple of significant moves so far in opposition to Bush's agenda -- voting against the tax cut and proposing an amendment on the highest tax rate. That's enough to justify a recall?
Republicans are making a mistake if they ignore the long-established fact that senators can't be pushed around like House members. I would have thought this was apparent after Jim Jeffords left.
posted by rcade at 5:23 AM on June 13, 2001
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posted by tomorama at 10:42 AM on June 12, 2001