June 21, 2001
12:49 AM Subscribe
posted by shackbar at 1:34 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by ttrendel at 2:51 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by dogmatic at 3:27 AM on June 21, 2001
Nothing is worse, in my opinion, than politicians except for blind devotion to a political party.
As for Taxrebatepledge.org, I would sooner donate my rebate to a cause to get rid of them and their stupid idea.
posted by a3matrix at 4:08 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by Ezrael at 4:16 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by Mick at 5:28 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by fooljay at 5:35 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by ZachsMind at 5:51 AM on June 21, 2001
"We are pleased to inform you that the United States Congress passed -- and President George W. Bush signed into law -- the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001, which provides long-term tax relief for all Americans who pay income taxes ..."What next -- printing money with "IN GOP WE TRUST" on it?
posted by rcade at 6:32 AM on June 21, 2001
The only real way to give people tax relief is to stop taking taxes from them in the first place.
Well, Zach, the rebate is paying back some of your federal income taxes. The states which are pushing for state tax liability on the refund are doing so because they deduct federal income taxes from your net income when calculating your state income tax liability. If you pay less federal tax, you have more net income on which to pay state tax.
It sucks, believe me (I live in Missouri, one of the states in question), but I don't see how it's unfair or how it could conceiveably be Bush's fault. If he had just lowered the tax rate and let everyone get a big refund at the end of the year, residents in those same states would pay state income tax on those refunds. The only difference here is that we're getting the refunds sooner.
posted by daveadams at 6:55 AM on June 21, 2001
What would you have had the letter say? "The current president, who will remain unnamed, signed the bill into law." Or maybe, "Zippity BOP!"?
posted by daveadams at 6:59 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by ttrendel at 2:51 AM PST on June 21
Dude, some of us are asleep at 5:50 in the morning, OK?
In any event, I find this organization highly amusing. Apparently they are blissfully unaware that by choosing as individuals what is best to do with their income, rather than letting the government choose, they are buying into the philosophical underpinnings of Bush's tax cut themselves.
posted by ljromanoff at 7:01 AM on June 21, 2001
$120 - Bill Clinton whore money
$150 - Barbara Streisand
$ 30 - misc.
Bill "Well, alright, but it costs like 120 bucks an hour these day and I can't go without getting any for like a whole, entire day"
posted by tiaka at 7:11 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by machaus at 7:17 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by dwivian at 7:32 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by crackheadmatt at 7:59 AM on June 21, 2001
True enough. 60-80 million letters at bulk rate works out to about that. Can you imagine how much it costs to distribute all the tax forms?
It seems reasonable to me that the government would send out a letter ahead of time informing you to expect a check. Not everyone watches the news.
posted by daveadams at 8:45 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by rcade at 8:56 AM on June 21, 2001
Nothing is worse, in my opinion, than politicians except for blind devotion to a political party.
Except maybe blanket statements made by trolls?
posted by jpoulos at 9:09 AM on June 21, 2001
Can you point out to me what blame is assessed in that letter? And it's hardly giving credit to point out the fact that the president signed the bill.
Every Democrat in Congress who still enjoys franking privileges and is complaining about this is a hypocrite.
posted by ljromanoff at 9:30 AM on June 21, 2001
The rebate in supposed to be an economic stimulus and was proposed by the Democrats. So if you're suggesting Bush was wrong to agree with them we're on the same side.
Perhaps real tax reform would be to get rid of the gigantic code with it's loopholes for people who can afford tax-professionals and make it simpler.
posted by revbrian at 9:51 AM on June 21, 2001
Gee, is that all? Is there anything else I could do? I mean, I'm used to turning my nose up at $300. In fact, I do it all the time. Would it be okay if I pledged more than that?
Fuck this. And I'm a leftie most of the time. I'm spending the money out of sheer crankiness and a desire to ignore this sort of tiresome knee-jerk partisanship that everybody likes to decry yet everyone seems to line up on.
And I'll say it again: I hate Bush. But this just seems to foster dissent for dissent's sake.
posted by Skot at 9:52 AM on June 21, 2001
So let's see. The conservative opinion makers on MeFi are now so marginalized that they can be laughingly dismissed by name before they even show up to state any opinion at all. And yet, at the same time, you people<tm> still get violently angry whenever anyone dares to point out how lockstep and homogeneous the Metafilter POV has become.
posted by aaron at 9:53 AM on June 21, 2001
Well, that *IS* how our system of government works. Congress passes a bill and if the president signs it then it becomes law.
Given the state of our educational system I doubt if 50% of americans know this. Think of it as education spending.
posted by revbrian at 9:54 AM on June 21, 2001
Where were you "laughingly dismissed"? Nowhere. The "joke," if any, was that this is a clearly left-slanted thread--donate your tax refund to anti-Bush groups--and that you and ljr and Dreama would very obviously have strong opinions against it. It was an affectionate tweak at worst.
You must chill.
posted by Skot at 10:10 AM on June 21, 2001
Yeah, precisely the problem. We were immediately placed, straw man-style, into a specific argument which we "obviously" would make. Main problem: It's not true. I can't speak for ljr and Dreama, of course (though obviously a lot of you believe you can, which is the point), but I have nothing against this at all. As someone that believes in individual freedom, I couldn't care less what someone does with their refunds. If they want to throw their own hard-earned money away by dumping it into the slush funds of special interest groups rather than use it to improve their own well-being or the well-being of their families, that's their right.
posted by aaron at 10:25 AM on June 21, 2001
My initiative is guaranteed to insure that you sleep well at night, knowing that your money has gone to directly help someone in need, rather than to fund expensive trips, dinners, and hotels for political lobbyists. And the ice cream is a happy bonus!
posted by kristin at 10:28 AM on June 21, 2001
Yes, well, this is what happens. Maybe it's not fair, but at least when it's unfair, it's universal. It's going to be common when different camps become polarized in frequent discussions.
you people still get violently angry whenever anyone dares to point out how lockstep and homogeneous the Metafilter POV has become.
See? It can happen to the best of us.
posted by Skot at 10:33 AM on June 21, 2001
It is a pleasure, however, to see all those left-wing special-interest groups admitting that they are specifically out to get Bush, not mere "for" whatever little issue they claim to represent. I'll have to keep that list on file for the next time someone claims that, for example, the Sierra Club is merely working for the environment, not working to destroy certain politicians.
posted by aaron at 10:47 AM on June 21, 2001
>:)
posted by frykitty at 11:08 AM on June 21, 2001
Isn't that what taxation is all about?
Me, I'm thinking of putting mine to use helping to make the deposit on a new car.
posted by jammer at 11:14 AM on June 21, 2001
Feel free to laugh at my expense.
posted by daveadams at 11:19 AM on June 21, 2001
working to destroy certain politicians.
If a politician continually blocks environmental legislation or sponsors pro-polluter legislation, the correct action for the Sierra Club is to defeat that politician in their next re-election, not merely to run ads saying how great trees are. So it is with these groups and Bush.
posted by brucec at 11:19 AM on June 21, 2001
Actually I think the theory is that funnelling the money through one institution achieves the economies of scale to do things with our money that we could not do alone or in small groups, such as: building highways, operating a military, executing terrorists, et cetera.
posted by daveadams at 11:21 AM on June 21, 2001
May I suggest using it towards the purchase a year-long bus pass? :)
posted by daveadams at 11:23 AM on June 21, 2001
sending rebate checks to people based on the last two digits of their social security numbers"
Just imagine if you were one of the poorest people, among those most likely to spend, who won't be getting any check at all.
Yeah, yeah, I know the line "they didn't pay in, so there not getting..." They paid payroll taxes.
posted by brucec at 11:23 AM on June 21, 2001
posted by jammer at 11:27 AM on June 21, 2001
scale to do things with our money that we could not do alone or in small groups, such as: building highways,
operating a military, executing terrorists, et cetera."
Damn, and I was just gonna go take my money and as AN EMPOWERED INDIVIDUAL go raise an army of my own, Personally go after ford and Firestone for their lousy tires, build a couple highways, negotiate what workplace hazzards I will face directly with my employer, personally inspect health standards at area food places, personally make sure no companies are polluting, take care of the seniors in my community, fund education out of my own pocket, do a little research so in the future we might find a cure for cancer. Yeah, and as a hobby, I was thinking of building a rocketship and going up into space to do experiments...Shoot, I ran out of money.
posted by brucec at 11:33 AM on June 21, 2001
Also, I've discovered that the site is lying about its very purpose, as some people are pledging amounts that do not correlate with the actual refunds they're going to receive, and they're doing so with the express encouragement of the site's organizers. A quick calculation proves that some are giving more than they can, and some are selfishing giving less and keeping some of the cash for themselves. (Divide the amount pledged by the number of pledgees. Note that the result is not divisible by 100.) So the whole thing's a bit of a sham. What a surprise.
They paid payroll taxes.
1) That's not George W. Bush's fault. 2) It's still an irrelevant argument, since this is an INCOME TAX REBATE. It is not physically possible for them to get a rebate on something they didn't pay into in the first place.
posted by aaron at 11:52 AM on June 21, 2001
Well, it's kind of irrelevant, but not really. The point about payroll taxes is that despite the semantics of "income" versus "payroll" taxes, the fact is that even the poorest of the poor pay payroll taxes and if we're really interested in their welfare and in giving back to "all taxpayers" (rather than all income-tax payers), then they should get a rebate and/or a reduction in their payroll tax, too.
And since George W. Bush has not pushed for such a change, it could be construed as being his fault. He had a lot of power and momentum going into this term, he could have used it better.
posted by daveadams at 12:12 PM on June 21, 2001
It is physically possible, its not politically possible.
posted by brucec at 12:34 PM on June 21, 2001
Huh? It's an income tax rebate because IT'S A REBATE OF YOUR INCOME TAX. For crying out loud.
posted by ljromanoff at 1:10 PM on June 21, 2001
Anything going through the IRS.gov communications ringer is bound to come out sounding bizarre from any point on the political spectrum.
posted by rschram at 1:19 PM on June 21, 2001
So are you also saying you're in favor of reducing medicare/welfare benefits? Hey, I'm all in favor of abolishing payroll taxes but I don't think any politician would get elected with that as part of their campaign.
posted by gyc at 3:06 PM on June 21, 2001
posted by greeneggsandham at 4:29 PM on June 21, 2001
posted by jammer at 4:40 PM on June 21, 2001
Well, here's how I look at it: I'd rather drop payroll taxes altogether along with social security and medicare, but that is totally impractical and is emphatically not-going-to-happen.
But what I don't understand is this: why do we have a regressive payroll tax? Why not a progressive one, like the income tax? Instead of assessing everyone a set percentage for all income up to $75,000 (or whatever it is now) why don't we just mirror the income tax system and say, the first $10000 is free and then on the next $25000 you pay 3% and on the next $25000 you pay 8% and on the rest you pay 15% or whatever.
It makes no sense to me to have the poorest citizens burdened with essentially a 15% payroll tax while we carp about how lucky they are not to pay any income tax! Maybe they don't pay "income" tax, but they pay tax on their income.
I think a politician could run on that and succeed.
posted by daveadams at 8:28 PM on June 21, 2001
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The only real way to give people tax relief is to stop taking taxes from them in the first place.
posted by ZachsMind at 12:56 AM on June 21, 2001