USAF pilots flying combat missions on amphetamines prescribed by USAF doctors, including part time members who are also commercial airline pilots.
June 5, 2002 8:22 AM Subscribe
USAF pilots flying combat missions on amphetamines prescribed by USAF doctors, including part time members who are also commercial airline pilots. A war on drugs indeed!
Canada's board, led by retired General Maurice Baril, said in a preliminary report last month that Canadian troops did nothing to provoke the incident.
is that even an issue?
posted by kliuless at 8:56 AM on June 5, 2002
is that even an issue?
posted by kliuless at 8:56 AM on June 5, 2002
The 183rd Tweakers? What, provigil's only for bomber pilots?
posted by y2karl at 9:02 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by y2karl at 9:02 AM on June 5, 2002
Um...this is exactly the reason amphetamines were created...to help soldiers out. Same goes for PCP, right?
Sheesh, what's the big deal? I doubt that it screwed with the pilot's judgement....I think it's your standard shitty military intelligence at fault again.
This is just a red herring.
posted by taumeson at 9:06 AM on June 5, 2002
Sheesh, what's the big deal? I doubt that it screwed with the pilot's judgement....I think it's your standard shitty military intelligence at fault again.
This is just a red herring.
posted by taumeson at 9:06 AM on June 5, 2002
Provigil - Wonder drug prevents sleep
National Sleep Foundation
posted by sheauga at 9:07 AM on June 5, 2002
National Sleep Foundation
posted by sheauga at 9:07 AM on June 5, 2002
I doubt that it screwed with the pilot's judgement
Apparently the manufacturer disagrees with you.
Some funky side effects: addiction (common), feelings of suspicion and paranoia, psychotic episodes, euphoria, severe social disability, tolerance (constant need to raise the dose).
posted by magullo at 9:15 AM on June 5, 2002
Apparently the manufacturer disagrees with you.
Some funky side effects: addiction (common), feelings of suspicion and paranoia, psychotic episodes, euphoria, severe social disability, tolerance (constant need to raise the dose).
posted by magullo at 9:15 AM on June 5, 2002
'Cause there's nothing wrong with a paranoid fighter pilot...
posted by kfury at 9:21 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by kfury at 9:21 AM on June 5, 2002
aren't feelings of suspicion and paranoia, psychotic episodes and severe social disability side effects of sleep deprivation?
posted by tolkhan at 9:22 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by tolkhan at 9:22 AM on June 5, 2002
Sheesh, what's the big deal? I doubt that it screwed with the pilot's judgement....I think it's your standard shitty military intelligence at fault again.
Have you ever been on amphetamines? They make you jumpy, nervous, talkative, and un-able to concentrate. Sure, you're awake, but you're distracted by EVERYTHING.
And you smoke a lot of Camel's... At least that's my experience with amphetamines. I would never want to pilot a car on speed, never mind a multi-million dollar jet.
posted by SweetJesus at 9:22 AM on June 5, 2002
Have you ever been on amphetamines? They make you jumpy, nervous, talkative, and un-able to concentrate. Sure, you're awake, but you're distracted by EVERYTHING.
And you smoke a lot of Camel's... At least that's my experience with amphetamines. I would never want to pilot a car on speed, never mind a multi-million dollar jet.
posted by SweetJesus at 9:22 AM on June 5, 2002
"USAF pilots flying combat missions on amphetamines prescribed by USAF doctors"
this is what Magullo writes but the story says there is no proof of this...typical lies.
"A fellah could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with this stuff"
-Major Kong, 'Dr. Strangelove'
posted by clavdivs at 9:23 AM on June 5, 2002
this is what Magullo writes but the story says there is no proof of this...typical lies.
"A fellah could have a pretty good weekend in Vegas with this stuff"
-Major Kong, 'Dr. Strangelove'
posted by clavdivs at 9:23 AM on June 5, 2002
"And you smoke a lot of Camel's..."
You smoke a lot of camel's what?
Oh, Camels plural. As in cigarettes. Whew. Never mind.
Had me worried there for a second.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:25 AM on June 5, 2002
You smoke a lot of camel's what?
Oh, Camels plural. As in cigarettes. Whew. Never mind.
Had me worried there for a second.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:25 AM on June 5, 2002
But wait, I'm positive I saw a commercial recently that said if you used drugs you were aiding terrorism.
Hmmm..
Didn't give it much credence at the time, thought it was just another government troll...
But now seeing how drugs may have contributed to the deaths of soldiers fighting the Taliban so we can get "our" gas pipeline built they may be correct!
posted by nofundy at 9:29 AM on June 5, 2002
Hmmm..
Didn't give it much credence at the time, thought it was just another government troll...
But now seeing how drugs may have contributed to the deaths of soldiers fighting the Taliban so we can get "our" gas pipeline built they may be correct!
posted by nofundy at 9:29 AM on June 5, 2002
clavdivs calls me a liar because the story says there is no proof of this. Here is what the story says:
"If they can't work around the scheduling, and people have to work extended hours, then dextro-amphetamine is approved," said Betty-Anne Mauger, a public affairs officer with the U.S. air force surgeon general.
Thus,
posted by magullo at 9:30 AM on June 5, 2002
"If they can't work around the scheduling, and people have to work extended hours, then dextro-amphetamine is approved," said Betty-Anne Mauger, a public affairs officer with the U.S. air force surgeon general.
Thus,
clavdivs is the LIAR
posted by magullo at 9:30 AM on June 5, 2002
I'm all for anything that keeps our military men and women more alert and more likely to kill the enemy before the enemy can kill them.
That's what they're there for, after all.
posted by bondcliff at 9:34 AM on June 5, 2002
That's what they're there for, after all.
posted by bondcliff at 9:34 AM on June 5, 2002
bondcliff You're happy to give drugs to the military so that they defend the country that holds the idea that drugs will ruin your life, your country and even your soul?
posted by magullo at 9:46 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by magullo at 9:46 AM on June 5, 2002
So does this mean that if I'm not allowed to do speed then the terrorists will have won?
posted by bshort at 9:52 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by bshort at 9:52 AM on June 5, 2002
If sending our boys in uniform Celine Dion CDs would turn them into more efficient killers, thereby saving a few American lives and some of my tax dollers, I'd be all for it.
War is not a time to worry about being hypocritical. War is the time to do whatever it takes to eliminate the enemy. Give the pilots LSD if it will bring them home faster.
America belives murder is wrong too. Should we stop giving the G.I.s bullets?
posted by bondcliff at 9:57 AM on June 5, 2002
War is not a time to worry about being hypocritical. War is the time to do whatever it takes to eliminate the enemy. Give the pilots LSD if it will bring them home faster.
America belives murder is wrong too. Should we stop giving the G.I.s bullets?
posted by bondcliff at 9:57 AM on June 5, 2002
The issue here, to me, isn't whether amphetimines are good or bad (I have my own personal opinions after watching friends walk down the ever-wakeful path to pyschotica), but that there's a level of hypocracy: speed is ok if you're working for the government and need to stay awake (how else would busy diplomats deal with the jetlag?), but not ok if you're an engineering student and Berkeley who needs to be perfectly alert for that presentation at 9am after an all-nighter.
posted by arielmeadow at 9:59 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by arielmeadow at 9:59 AM on June 5, 2002
According to this site, PCP was first synthesized as a surgical anasthetic.
posted by anathema at 10:03 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by anathema at 10:03 AM on June 5, 2002
But wait, I'm positive I saw a commercial recently that said if you used drugs you were aiding terrorism.
Illegal drugs "aid" terrorists, not drugs prescribed by a doctor.
But thanks for playing.
If they can't work around the scheduling, and people have to work extended hours, then dextro-amphetamine is approved
Not to be excessively pedantic, magullo, but this doesn't really support your claim that USAF pilots were flying combat missions while on amphetamines. For one thing, that statement by the USAF's press office doesn't mean that any pilots were actually taking amphetamines. Secondly, even if some pilots were taking amphetamines, that statement doesn't say anything about when they were taking them (including whether or not they were on them during combat.)
posted by ljromanoff at 10:14 AM on June 5, 2002
Illegal drugs "aid" terrorists, not drugs prescribed by a doctor.
But thanks for playing.
If they can't work around the scheduling, and people have to work extended hours, then dextro-amphetamine is approved
Not to be excessively pedantic, magullo, but this doesn't really support your claim that USAF pilots were flying combat missions while on amphetamines. For one thing, that statement by the USAF's press office doesn't mean that any pilots were actually taking amphetamines. Secondly, even if some pilots were taking amphetamines, that statement doesn't say anything about when they were taking them (including whether or not they were on them during combat.)
posted by ljromanoff at 10:14 AM on June 5, 2002
[You're happy to give drugs to the military so that they defend the country that holds the idea that drugs will ruin your life, your country and even your soul?]
That is quite an oversimplification, no? I'm pro-legilization for the most part, but I think there is a difference between "drugs" and "drug abuse". At least in my experience there is quite a gulf between people who use drugs and people who abuse them.
posted by revbrian at 10:22 AM on June 5, 2002
That is quite an oversimplification, no? I'm pro-legilization for the most part, but I think there is a difference between "drugs" and "drug abuse". At least in my experience there is quite a gulf between people who use drugs and people who abuse them.
posted by revbrian at 10:22 AM on June 5, 2002
War is not a time to worry about being hypocritical.
Then when DO you worry about being hypocritical? When we are at peace? Our fearless leaders have said we will be at war for a long time. If you can't criticize or dissent because your government during war, that government will always find a way to construct a war. It's called self-preservation.
War is the time to do whatever it takes to eliminate the enemy.
Even if that means nuking hundreds of thousands of non-combatants, or throwing suicide bombers at non-combatants, or torturing babies. Whatever it takes? Even in war, there should be limits.
posted by insomnyuk at 10:27 AM on June 5, 2002
Then when DO you worry about being hypocritical? When we are at peace? Our fearless leaders have said we will be at war for a long time. If you can't criticize or dissent because your government during war, that government will always find a way to construct a war. It's called self-preservation.
War is the time to do whatever it takes to eliminate the enemy.
Even if that means nuking hundreds of thousands of non-combatants, or throwing suicide bombers at non-combatants, or torturing babies. Whatever it takes? Even in war, there should be limits.
posted by insomnyuk at 10:27 AM on June 5, 2002
I'm all for drugs, anytime, anywhere. Plus, going up against that al-Qaeda air-force can get pretty hectic.
posted by Ty Webb at 10:32 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by Ty Webb at 10:32 AM on June 5, 2002
revbrian I think there is a difference between "drugs" and "drug abuse". At least in my experience there is quite a gulf between people who use drugs and people who abuse them
Reasonable attituded share by many people, but not the government. Zero tolerance policy anyone? Not when it comes to soldiers!
ljromanoff Not to be excessively pedantic, but if the Air Force admits giving the pills to its personnel, and does not single out any exception (obvious example: pilots), evidence mounts on my side. But let's remember these are tidbits from an article that flat out states that states the following (for the benefit of the multitudes who post without reading):
In the meeting, held in the week before Canadian soldiers were shelled by American bombs in Afghanistan, at least one F-16 pilot complained that requirements for crew rest were not being observed and that many of the pilots were overtired. The pilot was told, however, that further questions about crew rest would not be looked on favourably by the wing command.
Instead, pilots were advised to speak to a flight surgeon about so-called "go/no pills" -- amphetamines used to help stay awake on long missions, and sedatives to help sleep.
(bolding is mine)
posted by magullo at 10:51 AM on June 5, 2002
Reasonable attituded share by many people, but not the government. Zero tolerance policy anyone? Not when it comes to soldiers!
ljromanoff Not to be excessively pedantic, but if the Air Force admits giving the pills to its personnel, and does not single out any exception (obvious example: pilots), evidence mounts on my side. But let's remember these are tidbits from an article that flat out states that states the following (for the benefit of the multitudes who post without reading):
In the meeting, held in the week before Canadian soldiers were shelled by American bombs in Afghanistan, at least one F-16 pilot complained that requirements for crew rest were not being observed and that many of the pilots were overtired. The pilot was told, however, that further questions about crew rest would not be looked on favourably by the wing command.
Instead, pilots were advised to speak to a flight surgeon about so-called "go/no pills" -- amphetamines used to help stay awake on long missions, and sedatives to help sleep.
(bolding is mine)
posted by magullo at 10:51 AM on June 5, 2002
Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry
THAT'S a name sure to strike fear in the heart of Canada's enemies! Who in the hell picks names for these outfits?
"Surrender now, or we'll deploy the glee club!"
posted by groundhog at 11:31 AM on June 5, 2002
THAT'S a name sure to strike fear in the heart of Canada's enemies! Who in the hell picks names for these outfits?
"Surrender now, or we'll deploy the glee club!"
posted by groundhog at 11:31 AM on June 5, 2002
no evidence on your side magullo, prove, from this story, that USAF personnel where taking speed when the canadians were killed....you cant, and your story is about the possibility of drugs being used. no where in the article does it say that the pilots used drugs. Lie? o.k. i take that back. you do worse, you misled. The zero tolerance is for the abuse of drugs wether legal or illegal. the use of amphets for pilots (if need be) is as old as your semantic trick.
in this vain.
'The U.S. plans to nuke the Moon'
and the story would say that the us has a plan for it....
HAS...
see the semantic trick. accuse in the headline and support with a story that only raises the possibility.
posted by clavdivs at 11:35 AM on June 5, 2002
in this vain.
'The U.S. plans to nuke the Moon'
and the story would say that the us has a plan for it....
HAS...
see the semantic trick. accuse in the headline and support with a story that only raises the possibility.
posted by clavdivs at 11:35 AM on June 5, 2002
But wait, I'm positive I saw a commercial recently that said if you used drugs you were aiding terrorism.
That has now been amended. If you buy opiates you are now helping to support the interim Afghan government. Children across America have now begun saving their pennies for a second charitable campaign.
posted by srboisvert at 11:36 AM on June 5, 2002
That has now been amended. If you buy opiates you are now helping to support the interim Afghan government. Children across America have now begun saving their pennies for a second charitable campaign.
posted by srboisvert at 11:36 AM on June 5, 2002
There may be a gulf between those who use and those who abuse, but it seems obvious (to me, anyhow) that it's impossible to use amphetamines in a healthy way when the symptoms are heavy fatigue from lack of sleep and stress from flying combat missions. Plus, what happens to the pilots if they become addicted? Does the military pay for rehab or do they get dishonorably discharged? I suspect the latter.
posted by cowboy_sally at 11:46 AM on June 5, 2002
posted by cowboy_sally at 11:46 AM on June 5, 2002
Can't speak about pilots, but for specops and recon units amphetamine use (sanctioned, mind you) can be heavy at times. This is very true of sniper units, although care has to be taken to make sure this doesn't affect their aim.
And, no matter how carefully applied the standard effects of "uppers" applies; paranoia, quick to anger, etc.
My source? A friend who was a sniper in the Gulf War.
His comment was "they're great at first, but in hindsight I recommend avoiding them."
posted by hadashi at 11:56 AM on June 5, 2002
And, no matter how carefully applied the standard effects of "uppers" applies; paranoia, quick to anger, etc.
My source? A friend who was a sniper in the Gulf War.
His comment was "they're great at first, but in hindsight I recommend avoiding them."
posted by hadashi at 11:56 AM on June 5, 2002
If we were truly fighting for our nations' survival, then no one would be critical of doped-up pilots and Canadians would be more understanding of friendly fire incidents. But that's not really the case, and most of us acknowledge that. The war on terrorism has given the Bush administration a blank-check war, open-ended and with a flexible list of adversaries.
The commander who "discouraged" questions about crew rest and sent pilots to see the flight surgeon for drugs should be held responsible.
posted by norm29 at 11:57 AM on June 5, 2002
The commander who "discouraged" questions about crew rest and sent pilots to see the flight surgeon for drugs should be held responsible.
posted by norm29 at 11:57 AM on June 5, 2002
Illegal drugs "aid" terrorists, not drugs prescribed by a doctor.
Yes, because we all know the drugs undergo a magical transformation upon having the super special seal of governmental approval bestowed upon them....
posted by rushmc at 12:29 PM on June 5, 2002
Yes, because we all know the drugs undergo a magical transformation upon having the super special seal of governmental approval bestowed upon them....
posted by rushmc at 12:29 PM on June 5, 2002
There's a war on? I thought that was a comic parody site, that "Get Your War On!"
Haven't we covered this thoroughly already? We are NOT at war. As a country (supposedly) governed by the rule of law, we cannot be currently "at war." Therefore, justifying ANY behavior that would not be "normally" justifiable is pure BS.
posted by nofundy at 12:33 PM on June 5, 2002
Haven't we covered this thoroughly already? We are NOT at war. As a country (supposedly) governed by the rule of law, we cannot be currently "at war." Therefore, justifying ANY behavior that would not be "normally" justifiable is pure BS.
posted by nofundy at 12:33 PM on June 5, 2002
Let's distinguish between "drugs" and "pharmaceuticals prescribed for a limited duration by a licensed physician for a person who receives top-notch medical care and has received physical exams and other routine, preventive healthcare to ensure that his body & mind are functioning at optimal levels."
I'm just saying.
posted by davidmsc at 12:52 PM on June 5, 2002
I'm just saying.
posted by davidmsc at 12:52 PM on June 5, 2002
drug: a substance administered as a medicine or a narcotic.
Let's not make any such specious distinction.
posted by Mars Saxman at 2:16 PM on June 5, 2002
Let's not make any such specious distinction.
posted by Mars Saxman at 2:16 PM on June 5, 2002
kliuless: early reports had the pilot claiming he took ground fire. Canuck milblog Flit looked closely at these claims because he knows the weapons they would have had and what they look like at night.
groundhog: Princess Patricia was the daughter of the Duke who was Canada's Governor-General during the outbreak of WWI. For a nickname, they used to be called "the Princess Pats", now they prefer "the Patricias"! Though anyone familiar with their war record would be careful at how he sniggers.
posted by dhartung at 2:39 PM on June 5, 2002
groundhog: Princess Patricia was the daughter of the Duke who was Canada's Governor-General during the outbreak of WWI. For a nickname, they used to be called "the Princess Pats", now they prefer "the Patricias"! Though anyone familiar with their war record would be careful at how he sniggers.
posted by dhartung at 2:39 PM on June 5, 2002
SweetJesus: Have you ever been on amphetamines? They make you jumpy, nervous, talkative, and un-able to concentrate. Sure, you're awake, but you're distracted by EVERYTHING.
hadashi: And, no matter how carefully applied the standard effects of "uppers" applies; paranoia, quick to anger, etc.
My source? A friend who was a sniper in the Gulf War.
I take amphetamines every day (prescribed), and in my experience, the statements above are completely false. In fact, the main reason I take them is to make me less nervous, jumpy, and distracted. And they work.
That being said, I've been on dexedrine, and while it helped me concentrate, it also depressed me. There are many kinds of amphetamines, and each person who takes them should work with a doctor to find the right drug for that individual.
And the use of amphetamines by army personnel isn't any more hypocrytical than the use of any prescription drug by anybody while the "war on drugs" is going on. Dexedrine is legal.
posted by bingo at 4:08 PM on June 5, 2002
hadashi: And, no matter how carefully applied the standard effects of "uppers" applies; paranoia, quick to anger, etc.
My source? A friend who was a sniper in the Gulf War.
I take amphetamines every day (prescribed), and in my experience, the statements above are completely false. In fact, the main reason I take them is to make me less nervous, jumpy, and distracted. And they work.
That being said, I've been on dexedrine, and while it helped me concentrate, it also depressed me. There are many kinds of amphetamines, and each person who takes them should work with a doctor to find the right drug for that individual.
And the use of amphetamines by army personnel isn't any more hypocrytical than the use of any prescription drug by anybody while the "war on drugs" is going on. Dexedrine is legal.
posted by bingo at 4:08 PM on June 5, 2002
Military use of amphetamines goes back at least to WWII, where "millions of doses of amphetamine and methamphetamine were supplied to service personnel ... in both the US and England", according to this page.
posted by myl at 4:17 PM on June 5, 2002
posted by myl at 4:17 PM on June 5, 2002
I recently switched from Adderall to ProVigil (modafinil, mentioned earlier) to help with ADD and chronic fatigue. Maybe the test subjects are getting much larger doses, or maybe my ADD chemistry processes the drug differently, but I'm not able to stay up for days on modafinil. Then again, I can't stay up for days on Adderall or dextroamphetamine either. Modafinil is less habit-forming, has fewer side effects, and lasts longer than amphetamines, and I understand the military really is testing it for use in long-term flight situations. I hope it has more of an effect on them than it has on me so far.
posted by swerve at 10:59 PM on June 5, 2002
posted by swerve at 10:59 PM on June 5, 2002
dhartung: I figured there had to be a Serious Historical Aspect to the name, but you have to admit, it sounds pretty funny on first reading. (At least to this ignorant American.) I suppose the name would have a "Boy Named Sue" effect - you'd have to be a pretty tough customer to belong to an outfit named "The Patricias".
posted by groundhog at 6:00 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by groundhog at 6:00 AM on June 6, 2002
I believe the Nazi's pioneered the use of uppers in war. Not invokeing a Usenet law, just happens to be true.
posted by stbalbach at 6:48 AM on June 6, 2002
posted by stbalbach at 6:48 AM on June 6, 2002
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"I feel the need--the need for speed!"
posted by pracowity at 8:27 AM on June 5, 2002