Texas singer asks lesbian fans to not show affection at her shows
August 26, 2002 5:52 PM Subscribe
Texas singer asks lesbian fans to not show affection at her shows A budding folk-rocker who also happens to be a high school PE teacher has created a stir with an Aug. 12 email to her fans. "I have had several complaints from bar owners, friends, fans, and potential fans regarding the outwardly show of affection that has taken place at my shows," writes Michelle Mayfield. "This type of behavior, right or wrong, reflects on me as the artist who has brought you to that club...Please be respectful of the places where I am performing by being aware of the actions that can possibly turn potential fans away from my music or from my future shows." The resulting flap, and Mayfield's apology, is made more interesting by questions about Mayfield's own sexual preference, which she called "no one's business in the first place."
Well, I'm straight, but a goodly percentage of my friends are gay women and men. My take on it is that she's asking the gay members of the audience to have the "courtesy" of hiding in the closet so as to not make bigots uncomfortable.
She screwed herself...she's a nobody and will stay a nobody. You know the axiom of "any publicity is good publicity"? This incident will prove that axiom wrong. I'd be willing to bet that she couldn't get booked in Austin for love or money.
posted by dejah420 at 6:12 PM on August 26, 2002
She screwed herself...she's a nobody and will stay a nobody. You know the axiom of "any publicity is good publicity"? This incident will prove that axiom wrong. I'd be willing to bet that she couldn't get booked in Austin for love or money.
posted by dejah420 at 6:12 PM on August 26, 2002
If she was a professional athlete, instead of a country music singer, would we be more sympathetic to her request? If this was a man trying to break into country music, instead of a woman, would we judge her less harshly? I believe so, on both counts.
posted by Beholder at 6:16 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by Beholder at 6:16 PM on August 26, 2002
This woman obviously has problems...I hope people stay away and make her happy--God forbid two people should hold hands!
this is so weird...I was just reading about how some straight women are purposely not disclosing their sexuality so that they can get gigs at women's festivals and folk venues....that apparently it's such a lesbian-identified scene that they feel they won't be accepted if they come out as straight....I'm going to hunt it down....
posted by amberglow at 6:22 PM on August 26, 2002
this is so weird...I was just reading about how some straight women are purposely not disclosing their sexuality so that they can get gigs at women's festivals and folk venues....that apparently it's such a lesbian-identified scene that they feel they won't be accepted if they come out as straight....I'm going to hunt it down....
posted by amberglow at 6:22 PM on August 26, 2002
beholder -- Why do you think that people would be less concerned if she was male or and athlete? I can imagine quite an uproar if a football quarterback asked his gay fans to please refrain from appearing gay while watching him in a game.
posted by 4easypayments at 6:29 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by 4easypayments at 6:29 PM on August 26, 2002
amberglow, faking gayness has a long history in pop music, look what it did for Bowie.
But I agree that she was dumb for this bit. But I also find it unusual that such a mixed group would like the same music. Do some of her fans really care? Or was it just a vocal minority (as they tend to be).
posted by HTuttle at 6:32 PM on August 26, 2002
But I agree that she was dumb for this bit. But I also find it unusual that such a mixed group would like the same music. Do some of her fans really care? Or was it just a vocal minority (as they tend to be).
posted by HTuttle at 6:32 PM on August 26, 2002
But if hordes of sex-crazed lesbians have been fucking each other in front of the stage during her shows, well, she just might have a point.
She might also have a huge increase in the numbers of sex-crazed college boys who want to watch.
To me, this falls into the spectacular career-suicide category. However it could be brilliant for the tabloid tv circuit, guess which B-roll they'll be intercutting?
posted by joemaller at 6:36 PM on August 26, 2002
She might also have a huge increase in the numbers of sex-crazed college boys who want to watch.
To me, this falls into the spectacular career-suicide category. However it could be brilliant for the tabloid tv circuit, guess which B-roll they'll be intercutting?
posted by joemaller at 6:36 PM on August 26, 2002
Assuming we're talking about public cuddling and hand-holding rather than fucking, I totally understand the response from the angry queer person in the Google link. Can Mayfair really be seriously worried about a straight guy's bathroom comment? "I thought this was a straight bar"? Puh-lease.
But, you know, I'm honestly feeling inclined to chalk it up to growing up in public and forgive Mayfair, on this condition: Her apology failed to address her initial request for queers to tone their affection down. If she retracts that, it'd be a good sign that she's learned the lesson here -- everyone has the right to be themselves -- and I'd encourage folks to keep supporting her.
Btw, please do post that link, amberglow. I know a straight female singing duo who had such a bad experience with one all-women festival (they had a 2-year-old boy along) that they called it "Night on Vulva Mountain" for years. But I really hope this thread doesn't become another "let's have fun at lesbians' expense" thing. Right now, Mayfair's lesbian and gay fans have every right to be furious with her.
posted by mediareport at 6:43 PM on August 26, 2002
But, you know, I'm honestly feeling inclined to chalk it up to growing up in public and forgive Mayfair, on this condition: Her apology failed to address her initial request for queers to tone their affection down. If she retracts that, it'd be a good sign that she's learned the lesson here -- everyone has the right to be themselves -- and I'd encourage folks to keep supporting her.
Btw, please do post that link, amberglow. I know a straight female singing duo who had such a bad experience with one all-women festival (they had a 2-year-old boy along) that they called it "Night on Vulva Mountain" for years. But I really hope this thread doesn't become another "let's have fun at lesbians' expense" thing. Right now, Mayfair's lesbian and gay fans have every right to be furious with her.
posted by mediareport at 6:43 PM on August 26, 2002
you're right Htuttle, but I always thought it was the androgyny--Bowie never actually did anything explicitly gay and was married to a woman, etc....
in my hunting, i found this by a singer who discusses her sexuality and gigs.
posted by amberglow at 6:46 PM on August 26, 2002
in my hunting, i found this by a singer who discusses her sexuality and gigs.
posted by amberglow at 6:46 PM on August 26, 2002
My late uncle was in various bands for about ten years, and he and his bandmates were often thrilled to have anyone show up to see them play. I don't think any artist in any field has the luxury of picking and choosing an audience if the hope is to make a living.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:55 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by mr_crash_davis at 6:55 PM on August 26, 2002
Actually Bowie famously led a Melody Maker interview by announcing "I'm gay, and I always have been" (Google cache, sorry). But in later years he said he was just trying to make noise by saying that.
Beholder, I think that what makes this even more apalling is that she isn't even a bigot -- she's asking her gay audience to get back in the closet because they're keeping her career down. She doesn't want the lesbian listeners that, it sounds like, are at least a healthy portion of her audience to weigh her down. She gets this heartfelt tone in her letter about how desperately important it is that she reach a mainstream audience -- so, ladies, would you kindly stop embarassing me?
I honestly can't imagine what she thought would result from this. I'm guessing it's the end of her career -- and good riddance!
(And can anyone imagine a black artist writing an "open letter" to his fans asking them to act more white so he can have mainstream success?)
posted by argybarg at 6:56 PM on August 26, 2002
Beholder, I think that what makes this even more apalling is that she isn't even a bigot -- she's asking her gay audience to get back in the closet because they're keeping her career down. She doesn't want the lesbian listeners that, it sounds like, are at least a healthy portion of her audience to weigh her down. She gets this heartfelt tone in her letter about how desperately important it is that she reach a mainstream audience -- so, ladies, would you kindly stop embarassing me?
I honestly can't imagine what she thought would result from this. I'm guessing it's the end of her career -- and good riddance!
(And can anyone imagine a black artist writing an "open letter" to his fans asking them to act more white so he can have mainstream success?)
posted by argybarg at 6:56 PM on August 26, 2002
Or it could be a clever publicity trick to not only get her name out there, but hint that displays of Lesbian affection are available at her concerts, thus virtually guaranteeing a certain amount of heterosexual male interest.
Since the power structure is still dominated by said Tero males despite the advanced in recent decades, I would guess that a Lesbian would automatically get more "acceptance" from the industry than a male Mo singer or one with lots of gay guys at his concerts.
posted by Poagao at 7:10 PM on August 26, 2002
Since the power structure is still dominated by said Tero males despite the advanced in recent decades, I would guess that a Lesbian would automatically get more "acceptance" from the industry than a male Mo singer or one with lots of gay guys at his concerts.
posted by Poagao at 7:10 PM on August 26, 2002
(And can anyone imagine a black artist writing an "open letter" to his fans asking them to act more white so he can have mainstream success?)
Well, yes, I can imagine MJ ("king of pop") doing that. Not that he has...yet.
posted by HTuttle at 7:11 PM on August 26, 2002
Well, yes, I can imagine MJ ("king of pop") doing that. Not that he has...yet.
posted by HTuttle at 7:11 PM on August 26, 2002
[insert obligatory "but MJ isn't a black artist joke" here]
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:18 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:18 PM on August 26, 2002
I find this woman's request totally unbelievable. As a lesbian who in almost all occasions has to think about where I am before holding my partners hand, while watching straight people hold each others butt cheeks pretty much anywhere they want, I say to her good riddance!
We get dirty looks if we look at each other for too long! We have to consider whether or not we would be safe before deciding on a vacation spot. While standing in line for a ride at an amusement park we got stared down for interlocking our little fingers while straight people (mostly 16 and 17 yr olds) were practically having sex with each other in the same line.
And please stop with the "oh, it's titillating for guys to see girls together" crap. It's only titillating for them because they are thinking of "gay for pay" porn girls who appear to have sex with each other only until some man comes in to rescue them with his penis. I got news for you: lesbians aren't waiting for you to join, nor do they want you to watch them anymore than they want to watch you!
posted by bas67 at 7:34 PM on August 26, 2002
We get dirty looks if we look at each other for too long! We have to consider whether or not we would be safe before deciding on a vacation spot. While standing in line for a ride at an amusement park we got stared down for interlocking our little fingers while straight people (mostly 16 and 17 yr olds) were practically having sex with each other in the same line.
And please stop with the "oh, it's titillating for guys to see girls together" crap. It's only titillating for them because they are thinking of "gay for pay" porn girls who appear to have sex with each other only until some man comes in to rescue them with his penis. I got news for you: lesbians aren't waiting for you to join, nor do they want you to watch them anymore than they want to watch you!
posted by bas67 at 7:34 PM on August 26, 2002
"I do not want to become a Melissa Etheridge or a Patrice Pike (although I love them both and respect them very much as artists)."
Of course not...you might become successful or something, you wouldn't want that to happen.
I have been in bands since age 10, and I would never dream of turning people away for having a good time. I
mean, that's all most people are trying to do when they go see a band, singer, etc...
If some uptight asshole in the Men's room cant deal, then let him leave. I cannot understand why she would value the opinions of a bunch of homophobes, is she worried about her teaching job?
How much longer must we perpetuate and tolerate this kind of ignorance and bigotry? Maybe it's b/c I live in a major city, but I just don't understand sexual intolerance of any kind. Unfortunately, with dubya in office, it feels like we've taken three steps backward; people who are on the fence about coming out are going back in.
posted by buz46 at 7:37 PM on August 26, 2002
Of course not...you might become successful or something, you wouldn't want that to happen.
I have been in bands since age 10, and I would never dream of turning people away for having a good time. I
mean, that's all most people are trying to do when they go see a band, singer, etc...
If some uptight asshole in the Men's room cant deal, then let him leave. I cannot understand why she would value the opinions of a bunch of homophobes, is she worried about her teaching job?
How much longer must we perpetuate and tolerate this kind of ignorance and bigotry? Maybe it's b/c I live in a major city, but I just don't understand sexual intolerance of any kind. Unfortunately, with dubya in office, it feels like we've taken three steps backward; people who are on the fence about coming out are going back in.
posted by buz46 at 7:37 PM on August 26, 2002
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, Amberglow... from the NY Times Magazine: Queer As Folk.
posted by stonerose at 7:45 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by stonerose at 7:45 PM on August 26, 2002
Amberglow: the article you're looking for was in last week's NYTimes magazine. It's called "Queer as Folk" and was written by David Hajdu. Unfortunately, it is now in the archives, and costs $ to retrieve.
The overarching point of the article was that the folk music audience is a majority-lesbian audience. Interestingly enough, most of the non-lesbian folksingers interviewed (including one straight man) seemed not to mind. The few who did complain seemed to be complaining about how their records were being marketed, rather than about the presence of lesbians at their shows. One promoter mentioned that when the lesbians in the folk audience don't like a performer and won't come to see that performer, there is simply no audience. (I hope this applies to Michelle Mayfield: she doesn't deserve to have any audience.)
The singer who discussed hiding her heterosexuality in order to fit in was Dar Williams. She's one of the absolute biggest names in folk right now: her career hardly went under when she was "outed" as straight, despite her paranoia beforehand.
The other two "outees" discussed in the article were a bisexual woman who people had mistaken for a lesbian ( Ani Difranco) and a woman who did identify as a lesbian for many years before abruptly announcing that she was marrying a man ( Holly Near). Both of them are still huge celebrities.
posted by 23lemurs at 7:45 PM on August 26, 2002
The overarching point of the article was that the folk music audience is a majority-lesbian audience. Interestingly enough, most of the non-lesbian folksingers interviewed (including one straight man) seemed not to mind. The few who did complain seemed to be complaining about how their records were being marketed, rather than about the presence of lesbians at their shows. One promoter mentioned that when the lesbians in the folk audience don't like a performer and won't come to see that performer, there is simply no audience. (I hope this applies to Michelle Mayfield: she doesn't deserve to have any audience.)
The singer who discussed hiding her heterosexuality in order to fit in was Dar Williams. She's one of the absolute biggest names in folk right now: her career hardly went under when she was "outed" as straight, despite her paranoia beforehand.
The other two "outees" discussed in the article were a bisexual woman who people had mistaken for a lesbian ( Ani Difranco) and a woman who did identify as a lesbian for many years before abruptly announcing that she was marrying a man ( Holly Near). Both of them are still huge celebrities.
posted by 23lemurs at 7:45 PM on August 26, 2002
I think people were beginning to assume that she was gay, owing to the large lesbian fan base. Even a few posters here have automatically assumed she's closeted. That letter reads like someone who isn't thinking things through, just reacting to assumptions and comments.
She assumes she'll be big with a different audience. And she might be. So maybe she should write and play music that guyswant to hear. You know, rock out. Like Joan Jett...no, wait, never mind.
I forsee her next gig in a bar with a bunch of gay activists protesting on the left and right-wing Christian activists cheering her on from the right.
posted by Salmonberry at 7:47 PM on August 26, 2002
She assumes she'll be big with a different audience. And she might be. So maybe she should write and play music that guyswant to hear. You know, rock out. Like Joan Jett...no, wait, never mind.
I forsee her next gig in a bar with a bunch of gay activists protesting on the left and right-wing Christian activists cheering her on from the right.
posted by Salmonberry at 7:47 PM on August 26, 2002
(The Christian activists assuming anyone who would be against homosexuals being who they are in public is on their side. Why do they always think that?)
posted by Salmonberry at 7:48 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by Salmonberry at 7:48 PM on August 26, 2002
Foot meet, gun. Gun say hello to foot.
Career, I bid you adieu.
Okay gun, get on with it.
posted by damnitkage at 7:48 PM on August 26, 2002
Career, I bid you adieu.
Okay gun, get on with it.
posted by damnitkage at 7:48 PM on August 26, 2002
from her email: I have several friends who will not ask their families, friends, or coworkers to shows because of this behavior and the potential negative reflection that may be projected upon them as fans of mine.
Honey, your choice of friends sucks.
posted by HTuttle at 7:50 PM on August 26, 2002
Honey, your choice of friends sucks.
posted by HTuttle at 7:50 PM on August 26, 2002
23lemurs - the trick behind getting free archive articles is to figure out the date of the issue you want, and go directly to the relevant index page from your address bar, as I did above. The Times isn't very careful about that. (Sorry to stray off-topic with that little larcenous tip, folks...)
posted by stonerose at 7:53 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by stonerose at 7:53 PM on August 26, 2002
Rude. Callous. Presumptuous. Unbelievably thoughtless. And very sad.
([insert original joke about High School teachers and PDA, removed on account of the whole damn story being just too depressing].)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:54 PM on August 26, 2002
([insert original joke about High School teachers and PDA, removed on account of the whole damn story being just too depressing].)
posted by octobersurprise at 7:54 PM on August 26, 2002
Of course, this would be an issue in Texas.
Is that true, or is that just a stereotype leftover from the stone age?
posted by HTuttle at 7:57 PM on August 26, 2002
Is that true, or is that just a stereotype leftover from the stone age?
posted by HTuttle at 7:57 PM on August 26, 2002
Of course, it helps if you don't screw up the link.
posted by stonerose at 7:45 PM
posted by stonerose at 7:58 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by stonerose at 7:45 PM
posted by stonerose at 7:58 PM on August 26, 2002
Dirty looks? Bas67, you and your partner should stop worrying about other people's 'dirty looks.' Unless you're concerned about more violent reactions to public displays of affection, and unfortunately I must admit that is a grave concern, you should feel free to express your love just as any heterosexual pair might in public. Last I checked, though we're a corporate oligarchy parading around as a democratic republic, America's still a free country.
Personally I've found myself staring a few seconds too long at public lesbians because I think it's cute. Perhaps the look on my face communicates to them something different, but that's never my intention. I think it's beautiful when any two people in love find one another, regardless of gender. Even if they practice a combination not to my personal preference, that shouldn't affect their happiness. It shouldn't affect yours.
Last week a friend invited me to see Tiffany Shea at Sue Ellen's but I declined because that's a lesbian bar and I felt uncomfortable with the idea, but perhaps I'm allowing my homophobia to get the best of me. Shea's a great talent, and I no doubt missed a wonderful evening because of my own discomfort with other people's sexual proclivities. Something I should strongly reconsider next time I get such a proposal.
As for Michelle Mayfield, I'm offended. Not because of my sexual proclivity, but because for some years now I've been trying to get people anywhere in the world who will listen, to give Texas artists a try. There's a lot of talented musicians in the Lone Star state. I'm hoping someday to find myself in a position where I can honestly help them. I'm working on that.
Short-sighted people like Mayfield set my personal efforts back. Some people elsewhere in the world who happen to see this will look at Mayfield and assume many other Texas artists feel the same way. They couldn't be further from the truth. I suggest any homosexuals who find themselves in Texas explore the Oak Lawn area of Dallas, and leave Austin out of their itinerary. Greenville & Deep Ellum also have many places where gay people should feel at home.
We're gay friendly here at The Big D. =) And our talent is far better than anything I've heard from Austin, with the possible exception of Ginger Mackenzie.
Courtney Fairchild attracts both heterosexuals and homosexuals to her gigs. No one seems to be hiding who they are. Her music's lyrics encourage free expression and honesty. Fairchild doesn't seem to mind the attention. She veritably glows in response to it. I'm frustrated that Texas artists only get people like Ann Rostow to write articles about them when they screw up.
Mayfield should be thankful to get any audience. However, she may be reacting to pressure from club venues who have told her they won't book her because they don't like the clientele she brings. This adversely affects both her gigs and her pocketbook. She no doubt thought with the emptiness in her bank account, and not with the fullness of her heart.
An aspiring artist should make her fans feel at home, wherever she is and whomever they may be. Hopefully someday the young Mayfield will learn that lesson. Perhaps this episode is her crash course in public relations.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:10 PM on August 26, 2002
Personally I've found myself staring a few seconds too long at public lesbians because I think it's cute. Perhaps the look on my face communicates to them something different, but that's never my intention. I think it's beautiful when any two people in love find one another, regardless of gender. Even if they practice a combination not to my personal preference, that shouldn't affect their happiness. It shouldn't affect yours.
Last week a friend invited me to see Tiffany Shea at Sue Ellen's but I declined because that's a lesbian bar and I felt uncomfortable with the idea, but perhaps I'm allowing my homophobia to get the best of me. Shea's a great talent, and I no doubt missed a wonderful evening because of my own discomfort with other people's sexual proclivities. Something I should strongly reconsider next time I get such a proposal.
As for Michelle Mayfield, I'm offended. Not because of my sexual proclivity, but because for some years now I've been trying to get people anywhere in the world who will listen, to give Texas artists a try. There's a lot of talented musicians in the Lone Star state. I'm hoping someday to find myself in a position where I can honestly help them. I'm working on that.
Short-sighted people like Mayfield set my personal efforts back. Some people elsewhere in the world who happen to see this will look at Mayfield and assume many other Texas artists feel the same way. They couldn't be further from the truth. I suggest any homosexuals who find themselves in Texas explore the Oak Lawn area of Dallas, and leave Austin out of their itinerary. Greenville & Deep Ellum also have many places where gay people should feel at home.
We're gay friendly here at The Big D. =) And our talent is far better than anything I've heard from Austin, with the possible exception of Ginger Mackenzie.
Courtney Fairchild attracts both heterosexuals and homosexuals to her gigs. No one seems to be hiding who they are. Her music's lyrics encourage free expression and honesty. Fairchild doesn't seem to mind the attention. She veritably glows in response to it. I'm frustrated that Texas artists only get people like Ann Rostow to write articles about them when they screw up.
Mayfield should be thankful to get any audience. However, she may be reacting to pressure from club venues who have told her they won't book her because they don't like the clientele she brings. This adversely affects both her gigs and her pocketbook. She no doubt thought with the emptiness in her bank account, and not with the fullness of her heart.
An aspiring artist should make her fans feel at home, wherever she is and whomever they may be. Hopefully someday the young Mayfield will learn that lesson. Perhaps this episode is her crash course in public relations.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:10 PM on August 26, 2002
TskTsk said: Of course, this would be an issue in Texas.
Gee, stereotype much?
To be fair, you could say that about most of Texas, but this is Austin we're talking about. Austin is like a whole other small state inside of the rest of Texas. We're about as lesbian-friendly as you'll find this far from Manhattan or San Francisco.
Another thing about Austin is that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half dozen folk singers; she won't need too much help fading into obscurity. Even if this flap had never happened, a few months from now, it'll be "Michelle who?"
posted by RylandDotNet at 8:23 PM on August 26, 2002
Gee, stereotype much?
To be fair, you could say that about most of Texas, but this is Austin we're talking about. Austin is like a whole other small state inside of the rest of Texas. We're about as lesbian-friendly as you'll find this far from Manhattan or San Francisco.
Another thing about Austin is that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half dozen folk singers; she won't need too much help fading into obscurity. Even if this flap had never happened, a few months from now, it'll be "Michelle who?"
posted by RylandDotNet at 8:23 PM on August 26, 2002
Zachsmind,
Well I guess I shouldn't mind dirty looks but a dirty look from a man in a restaurant here in Atlanta turned into him jumping up from his table and throwing it across the room. He was staring at my partner and I as we ate. I noticed but ignored him. He kept moving to be in my line of vision. I continued to ignore him. After this went on for about 15 min. I finally asked him "do I know you?" (I thought maybe he just couldn't place who I was). He then jumped up from his seat, threw the table and called me a "fucking dyke!". ME! I'm the girly, girly in the couple! Clearly this man had some emotional problems. Maybe his wife just left him for a girl, who knows? This man clearly meant us harm, if others hadn't stepped in it would have been bad. All we were doing was sitting across from each other and eating dinner! Yes, we look like a stereotypical butch-femme couple, but we weren't even touching each other!
Dirty looks can lead to violence very quickly in my experience.
posted by bas67 at 8:26 PM on August 26, 2002
Well I guess I shouldn't mind dirty looks but a dirty look from a man in a restaurant here in Atlanta turned into him jumping up from his table and throwing it across the room. He was staring at my partner and I as we ate. I noticed but ignored him. He kept moving to be in my line of vision. I continued to ignore him. After this went on for about 15 min. I finally asked him "do I know you?" (I thought maybe he just couldn't place who I was). He then jumped up from his seat, threw the table and called me a "fucking dyke!". ME! I'm the girly, girly in the couple! Clearly this man had some emotional problems. Maybe his wife just left him for a girl, who knows? This man clearly meant us harm, if others hadn't stepped in it would have been bad. All we were doing was sitting across from each other and eating dinner! Yes, we look like a stereotypical butch-femme couple, but we weren't even touching each other!
Dirty looks can lead to violence very quickly in my experience.
posted by bas67 at 8:26 PM on August 26, 2002
amberglow, faking gayness has a long history in pop music, look what it did for Bowie.
Nobody tell Mick that Bowie was faking, 'kay?
posted by anildash at 8:29 PM on August 26, 2002
Nobody tell Mick that Bowie was faking, 'kay?
posted by anildash at 8:29 PM on August 26, 2002
The guy should have been carried away by the police for creating a public nuissance. Did the proprietor of the establishment step in and shut the guy up? I know being an out of the closet homosexual in today's society is a risky situation practically every day, but hiding doesn't resolve the issue.
You can't let closed minds scare you into hiding who you are.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:34 PM on August 26, 2002
You can't let closed minds scare you into hiding who you are.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:34 PM on August 26, 2002
I need to visit Austin so that my stereotype gets quashed. The rest of Texas I have seen and experienced, on too many occasions, sure does not like queer folk.
posted by TskTsk at 8:37 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by TskTsk at 8:37 PM on August 26, 2002
So, anybody else listen to the mp3s on her site? I hate to say it, but I like them. I guess I'm hoping that she can realize the error of her ways. Unfortunately that lame apology looks like strike two.
posted by Wood at 8:38 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by Wood at 8:38 PM on August 26, 2002
The error of her ways with her website's mp3s is only putting up a piece of each song. Instead you put up one or two full songs from each album. A slice of a song doesn't give much of an indication of talent.
posted by ZachsMind at 8:42 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by ZachsMind at 8:42 PM on August 26, 2002
thanks all, I've been hunting and hunting but couldn't remember where I saw it...and that was it! As soon as I saw mediareport's post, I thought of it. This is what I was thinking of....
Dar Williams, one of the most acclaimed and best established singer-songwriters of the current generation, has always considered herself heterosexual but was vague about her sexual orientation to her sizable gay following -- until her marriage to a man this spring necessitated that she ''come out and say: 'O.K. I'm straight.' '' She found it difficult. ''It was hard to do, because I have so many gay fans,'' she says. ''I had made a point about talking about lesbians at every concert I did, and I was ambiguous about myself. I kept it ambiguous as a way of saying it doesn't matter. Now I hear that people think I was allowing myself to be identified as a lesbian for as long as it took to get a certain following. I never said I was a lesbian, but I was aware that there was a marketing angle -- there was an angle that I had that I wouldn't have had if I were just identified as straight.''
bas, I hate that shit too....at least it gets less and less common (at least I've found that)
posted by amberglow at 8:47 PM on August 26, 2002
Dar Williams, one of the most acclaimed and best established singer-songwriters of the current generation, has always considered herself heterosexual but was vague about her sexual orientation to her sizable gay following -- until her marriage to a man this spring necessitated that she ''come out and say: 'O.K. I'm straight.' '' She found it difficult. ''It was hard to do, because I have so many gay fans,'' she says. ''I had made a point about talking about lesbians at every concert I did, and I was ambiguous about myself. I kept it ambiguous as a way of saying it doesn't matter. Now I hear that people think I was allowing myself to be identified as a lesbian for as long as it took to get a certain following. I never said I was a lesbian, but I was aware that there was a marketing angle -- there was an angle that I had that I wouldn't have had if I were just identified as straight.''
bas, I hate that shit too....at least it gets less and less common (at least I've found that)
posted by amberglow at 8:47 PM on August 26, 2002
I don't hide. I just have to be careful.
I guess my point to this thread is that some woman telling a group of people that their behavior is unacceptable (while it is totally acceptable to other groups in the same enviroment) yet still wanting them to support her is insulting.
posted by bas67 at 8:51 PM on August 26, 2002
I guess my point to this thread is that some woman telling a group of people that their behavior is unacceptable (while it is totally acceptable to other groups in the same enviroment) yet still wanting them to support her is insulting.
posted by bas67 at 8:51 PM on August 26, 2002
My take on it is that she's asking the gay members of the audience to have the "courtesy" of hiding in the closet so as to not make bigots uncomfortable.
Whatever she actually said or tried to say.. what is wrong with her saying this? To be honest, shouldn't she be saying this to everyone? Who wants to go to a concert or a bar and see -anyone- getting it on whether they're gay/straight/martian or whatever?
OTT kissing in public is just rude. A peck, sure, but anything else is bound to make people feel uncomfortable.
posted by wackybrit at 8:52 PM on August 26, 2002
Whatever she actually said or tried to say.. what is wrong with her saying this? To be honest, shouldn't she be saying this to everyone? Who wants to go to a concert or a bar and see -anyone- getting it on whether they're gay/straight/martian or whatever?
OTT kissing in public is just rude. A peck, sure, but anything else is bound to make people feel uncomfortable.
posted by wackybrit at 8:52 PM on August 26, 2002
TskTsk - you should also drop in on Houston's Montrose community, well known as one of the larger homesexual "enclaves" in the country. You'd find people in that part of town quite cosmopolitan in their attitudes towards freedom of lifestyles. And if you visited in April, the Westheimer Colony Arts festival is a lot of fun.
In truth though, I do doubt if many Montrose residents would enjoy the experience of wandering too far out of the area, into Katy or Pasadena. Lot of pickup trucks and shotgun racks out on the fringes of town, and perhaps some less than enlightened philosophies.
posted by John Smallberries at 8:52 PM on August 26, 2002
In truth though, I do doubt if many Montrose residents would enjoy the experience of wandering too far out of the area, into Katy or Pasadena. Lot of pickup trucks and shotgun racks out on the fringes of town, and perhaps some less than enlightened philosophies.
posted by John Smallberries at 8:52 PM on August 26, 2002
So, anybody else listen to the mp3s on her site?
Yeah, she's okay. I'd like some more variety in her voice. They sounded too much alike vocally.
Zachsmind: I liked Courtney Fairchild from an earlier MeFi link (yours?) but her mixes were kinda weak.
posted by HTuttle at 8:53 PM on August 26, 2002
Yeah, she's okay. I'd like some more variety in her voice. They sounded too much alike vocally.
Zachsmind: I liked Courtney Fairchild from an earlier MeFi link (yours?) but her mixes were kinda weak.
posted by HTuttle at 8:53 PM on August 26, 2002
wackybrit, that's so quaint...I thought that was why buses in London had the upper deck, especially the night buses out of trafalgar square *blushing*
posted by amberglow at 8:56 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by amberglow at 8:56 PM on August 26, 2002
I was gonna ignore this thread, mainly cos I'm beginning to bore myself on the fight for equality, but sometimes inspiration prompts.
The artist formally known as "Washed Up, Never Was Loser" deserves her fate. If simple PDAs offend her, then alluding to a minority orientation which she may have an affinity to ! when asking folks to tone it down sealed her fate - and she should have known that beforehand, as a matter of judgement. What a way to claim your 15 minutes of fame...
"...in almost all occasions (I have) to think about where I am before holding my partners hand..." - bas67.
This - and the restaurant scene bas67 mentions, which most gay folks have had a similar taste of - illustrates the prevalance of bias almost everywhere in the world at the moment against non-hetero folks (I say at the moment, as historically, it wasn't always so). I don't expect that straight folks who object to Pride marches, with all their attendant exuberance, provocative dress, behaviour & hype make the connection that if granted the right to safety everyday, and to affection everyday, and acceptance everyday, the extremes would return to private expressions. Which, since I grew out of the Lennonesque "why don't we do it in the road", is where I think most public sexuality should retire to.
O, Zach: when I saw two 6 foot biker guys - in full leather gear, helmets an'all - walking down Cornmarket (Oxford's Main St.) holding hands on a bright Saturday in summer, I smiled so broadly at them for their bravado. And thought: "..They must be Dutch. Or German. But obliviously, quietly showing their ability to peacefully go about their business...way to go. Wa-aa-y to Go-oo!"
I don't want to wear assless leather trousers down Oxford High Street: I want to kiss my boyfriend underneath the Town Hall clock. Not just at the end of a beery evening, when we can hide in the shadows or be ignored by the crowds in the taxi queue: at noon, outside, before my colleagues if they happen to be there. Just like Madge & Guy, should they want to.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:04 PM on August 26, 2002
The artist formally known as "Washed Up, Never Was Loser" deserves her fate. If simple PDAs offend her, then alluding to a minority orientation which she may have an affinity to ! when asking folks to tone it down sealed her fate - and she should have known that beforehand, as a matter of judgement. What a way to claim your 15 minutes of fame...
"...in almost all occasions (I have) to think about where I am before holding my partners hand..." - bas67.
This - and the restaurant scene bas67 mentions, which most gay folks have had a similar taste of - illustrates the prevalance of bias almost everywhere in the world at the moment against non-hetero folks (I say at the moment, as historically, it wasn't always so). I don't expect that straight folks who object to Pride marches, with all their attendant exuberance, provocative dress, behaviour & hype make the connection that if granted the right to safety everyday, and to affection everyday, and acceptance everyday, the extremes would return to private expressions. Which, since I grew out of the Lennonesque "why don't we do it in the road", is where I think most public sexuality should retire to.
O, Zach: when I saw two 6 foot biker guys - in full leather gear, helmets an'all - walking down Cornmarket (Oxford's Main St.) holding hands on a bright Saturday in summer, I smiled so broadly at them for their bravado. And thought: "..They must be Dutch. Or German. But obliviously, quietly showing their ability to peacefully go about their business...way to go. Wa-aa-y to Go-oo!"
I don't want to wear assless leather trousers down Oxford High Street: I want to kiss my boyfriend underneath the Town Hall clock. Not just at the end of a beery evening, when we can hide in the shadows or be ignored by the crowds in the taxi queue: at noon, outside, before my colleagues if they happen to be there. Just like Madge & Guy, should they want to.
posted by dash_slot- at 9:04 PM on August 26, 2002
I am in this thread way late, but I feel compelled to add my 2 cents anyway.
I work with a guy how plays in an acoustic group and the lead singer is a lesbian. They have trouble sometimes playing "straight" clubs/getting exposure because they attract a rather large following of lesbians wherever they play. Some bar owners have requested they not come back because of this (these are admittedly in the "folksier" sections of my fair metropolis). This may be part of what she was dealing with. She may not have wanted to be pigeon-holed as a "gay" act, which would limit her exposure because it would limit where she would get booked.
posted by internal at 9:08 PM on August 26, 2002
I work with a guy how plays in an acoustic group and the lead singer is a lesbian. They have trouble sometimes playing "straight" clubs/getting exposure because they attract a rather large following of lesbians wherever they play. Some bar owners have requested they not come back because of this (these are admittedly in the "folksier" sections of my fair metropolis). This may be part of what she was dealing with. She may not have wanted to be pigeon-holed as a "gay" act, which would limit her exposure because it would limit where she would get booked.
posted by internal at 9:08 PM on August 26, 2002
Zach: I find your words in conflict with your (in)action. You won't go to SueEllen's to hear Tiffany Shea because it is a "lesbian" bar, but bemoan that people aren't supporting Texas artists.
In my experience, Sue's is one of the friendliest/more inclusive of the clubs on the strip and moreso if you are there with friends and don't appear to be trolling for lesbians. Sure, there are some bars where I feel somewhat unwelcome for not being a proto-dyke, but as stated earlier, going with others who are familiar with the space makes it much easier.
posted by sillygit at 9:12 PM on August 26, 2002
In my experience, Sue's is one of the friendliest/more inclusive of the clubs on the strip and moreso if you are there with friends and don't appear to be trolling for lesbians. Sure, there are some bars where I feel somewhat unwelcome for not being a proto-dyke, but as stated earlier, going with others who are familiar with the space makes it much easier.
posted by sillygit at 9:12 PM on August 26, 2002
Another thing about Austin is that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half dozen folk singers
RylandDotNet, I was thinking you were gonna say "... another thing about Austin is that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half-dozen queers." She has several dates at clubs in and around Austin, so her audience would naturally include plenty of gays/lesbians.
Now the students are back, so maybe her demographic will change (Jenna Bush might show up!), especially if the news hits queerut.org.
posted by whatnot at 9:14 PM on August 26, 2002
RylandDotNet, I was thinking you were gonna say "... another thing about Austin is that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half-dozen queers." She has several dates at clubs in and around Austin, so her audience would naturally include plenty of gays/lesbians.
Now the students are back, so maybe her demographic will change (Jenna Bush might show up!), especially if the news hits queerut.org.
posted by whatnot at 9:14 PM on August 26, 2002
wackybrit, that's so quaint...I thought that was why buses in London had the upper deck, especially the night buses out of trafalgar square *blushing*
Actually, in London I don't bat an eyelid at whatever anyone's up to, because London is just full of weirdos and scary people anyway. ;-)
posted by wackybrit at 9:15 PM on August 26, 2002
Actually, in London I don't bat an eyelid at whatever anyone's up to, because London is just full of weirdos and scary people anyway. ;-)
posted by wackybrit at 9:15 PM on August 26, 2002
I've lived in Austin for 12 years and followed the music scene fairly closely... and I've never heard of Michelle Mayfield before this (saw it on the local news a couple of days ago). Austin does have a tradition of lesbian and queer-friendly musicians (Two Nice Girls; Girls in the Nose; Patrice Pike; the scenes at the late, great Chances, Gaby and Mo's and Chicago House) and there are often crowds of womyn, occasionally going topless if it's hot enough, and it's always been accepted and pretty much encouraged. Mainly because about the only folks who go out to see female singer-songwriters in town tend to be gay. Sad, but that seems to be the case. She has really shot herself in the foot in this town.
posted by shecky57 at 9:17 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by shecky57 at 9:17 PM on August 26, 2002
That was my point, SillyGit. I let my closedmindedness get the best of me. I'm admitting I'm human and make mistakes too. I know that's not in fashion nowadays to admit one's humanity, but you know me! *shrug*
posted by ZachsMind at 9:25 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by ZachsMind at 9:25 PM on August 26, 2002
yay weirdos and scary people! (we're good folks, wacky--once you get beyond the public displays of affection) What do you say we round some up and crash one of Michelle Mayfield's shows?
Internal, is your friend going to hide her sexuality to get gigs? Is she bothered by it enough?
posted by amberglow at 9:25 PM on August 26, 2002
Internal, is your friend going to hide her sexuality to get gigs? Is she bothered by it enough?
posted by amberglow at 9:25 PM on August 26, 2002
Jewel Kilcher never attracted a lesbian crowd. Why not? Because she's hot and her songs are deep. It seems clear that lesbian groupies go for butch women who sing tired songs about how crappy their lives are.
This does not explain Fiona Apple's audience, however.
posted by wackybrit at 9:29 PM on August 26, 2002
This does not explain Fiona Apple's audience, however.
posted by wackybrit at 9:29 PM on August 26, 2002
To be fair, you could say that about most of Texas, but this is Austin we're talking about. Austin is like a whole other small state inside of the rest of Texas. We're about as lesbian-friendly as you'll find this far from Manhattan or San Francisco.
As a long-time Austinite, I couldn't agree more, but please note that she is a high school athletics teacher at Round Rock High School. Though Round Rock is (now) a suburb of Austin, it's in way-conservative Williamson county. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was getting--or worried about getting--flack at her job. Whether or not she's a lesbian, I can see where it would be easy for one rabid parent to cause her a world of grief in her day job, and using her followers as 'proof'. (I can empathize if that's the case, but I'm not excusing her actions or at least the way she chose to deal with the situation).
posted by tippiedog at 9:29 PM on August 26, 2002
As a long-time Austinite, I couldn't agree more, but please note that she is a high school athletics teacher at Round Rock High School. Though Round Rock is (now) a suburb of Austin, it's in way-conservative Williamson county. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was getting--or worried about getting--flack at her job. Whether or not she's a lesbian, I can see where it would be easy for one rabid parent to cause her a world of grief in her day job, and using her followers as 'proof'. (I can empathize if that's the case, but I'm not excusing her actions or at least the way she chose to deal with the situation).
posted by tippiedog at 9:29 PM on August 26, 2002
whatnot said: I was thinking you were gonna say "... another thing about Austin is that you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a half-dozen queers."
Heh. Probably also true. You know the old saying... all the good women are either married or gay.
posted by RylandDotNet at 9:30 PM on August 26, 2002
Heh. Probably also true. You know the old saying... all the good women are either married or gay.
posted by RylandDotNet at 9:30 PM on August 26, 2002
Oh, and to all of you on here who claim that heterosexual people who do not like the sight of homosexuals being intimate are 'bigots'... how would you like it if you had to watch someone constantly picking their nose and eating their own snot? Sure, we might all do it from time to time, but you really don't want to see it.
Someone might have no problem with homosexuality in a moral sense, yet not wish to see the acts take place.. just like most people who aren't snot fetishists would not like to see someone else consume their own nose-dirt.
posted by wackybrit at 9:34 PM on August 26, 2002
Someone might have no problem with homosexuality in a moral sense, yet not wish to see the acts take place.. just like most people who aren't snot fetishists would not like to see someone else consume their own nose-dirt.
posted by wackybrit at 9:34 PM on August 26, 2002
she is a high school athletics teacher at Round Rock High School. Though Round Rock is (now) a suburb of Austin, it's in way-conservative Williamson county. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was getting--or worried about getting--flack at her job.
Good point, but if that's the case, she needs to decide what she's going to be when she grows up, a singer or a gym teacher. I could be wrong, but I don't think she can have it both ways.
posted by RylandDotNet at 9:36 PM on August 26, 2002
Good point, but if that's the case, she needs to decide what she's going to be when she grows up, a singer or a gym teacher. I could be wrong, but I don't think she can have it both ways.
posted by RylandDotNet at 9:36 PM on August 26, 2002
It's not homosexual acts wackybrit--it's the same things straight people do--at concerts, on the street, in restaurants--you know, in everyday life--arms around the shoulder, holding hands, resting your head on his shoulder, maybe a kiss or two, etc
It's normal date stuff...and i'm sorry you have a problem with it.
posted by amberglow at 9:38 PM on August 26, 2002
It's normal date stuff...and i'm sorry you have a problem with it.
posted by amberglow at 9:38 PM on August 26, 2002
oh, and it's NOT AT ALL comparable to picking your nose and eating it
posted by amberglow at 9:39 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by amberglow at 9:39 PM on August 26, 2002
Someone might have no problem with homosexuality in a moral sense, yet not wish to see the acts take place.
Pull your head out of your ass, please (or "arse", in deference to your Britishness). Equating homosexual displays of affection with nose-picking makes you seem like a real prick, hopefully without meaning to do.
If you have a problem with the acts, that's one thing, but if you have a problem with homosexuals committing the acts but not heterosexuals, then just admit you have a moral problem with homosexuality. Public displays of affection are the same whether the people committing the acts are gay or straight.
posted by RylandDotNet at 9:42 PM on August 26, 2002
Pull your head out of your ass, please (or "arse", in deference to your Britishness). Equating homosexual displays of affection with nose-picking makes you seem like a real prick, hopefully without meaning to do.
If you have a problem with the acts, that's one thing, but if you have a problem with homosexuals committing the acts but not heterosexuals, then just admit you have a moral problem with homosexuality. Public displays of affection are the same whether the people committing the acts are gay or straight.
posted by RylandDotNet at 9:42 PM on August 26, 2002
Wow Wackybrit,
Comparing nose picking to me holding my partners hand?!?!?
Sounds like those people who say that civil unions would lead to people marring their dogs.
Where do you get this stuff?
posted by bas67 at 9:57 PM on August 26, 2002
Comparing nose picking to me holding my partners hand?!?!?
Sounds like those people who say that civil unions would lead to people marring their dogs.
Where do you get this stuff?
posted by bas67 at 9:57 PM on August 26, 2002
Public displays of affection are the same whether the people committing the acts are gay or straight.
Nonsense.
I fully support the right of someone to be gay. However, if two grown men were tonguing each other in front of me, I would feel somewhat more uncomfortable than if two heterosexuals were engaged in the same thing. Why? Because it is unfamiliar, and something I find personally unpleasant.
Does this make me a bigot? No, because a bigot is intolerant and does not like the fact that others are different. I like the fact we have lots of different cultures in our society.. but I do not necessarily want to experience them for myself.
In fact, it's somewhat like supporting the right for people to watch pornography. Someone might say that pornography is not immoral, but be sickened by it themselves. Does that make them a bigot? No.
Therefore, I believe that gay people can do what they like (within the law, of course) but that I reserve the right not to be particularly comfortable with seeing what they get up to.. but also NOT to discriminate against them for that.
posted by wackybrit at 10:01 PM on August 26, 2002
Nonsense.
I fully support the right of someone to be gay. However, if two grown men were tonguing each other in front of me, I would feel somewhat more uncomfortable than if two heterosexuals were engaged in the same thing. Why? Because it is unfamiliar, and something I find personally unpleasant.
Does this make me a bigot? No, because a bigot is intolerant and does not like the fact that others are different. I like the fact we have lots of different cultures in our society.. but I do not necessarily want to experience them for myself.
In fact, it's somewhat like supporting the right for people to watch pornography. Someone might say that pornography is not immoral, but be sickened by it themselves. Does that make them a bigot? No.
Therefore, I believe that gay people can do what they like (within the law, of course) but that I reserve the right not to be particularly comfortable with seeing what they get up to.. but also NOT to discriminate against them for that.
posted by wackybrit at 10:01 PM on August 26, 2002
WackyBrit, I'm calling troll on ya.
Bad form, old boy.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:02 PM on August 26, 2002
Bad form, old boy.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:02 PM on August 26, 2002
ZachsMind: In almost any other thread, you'd have called me right. This time, however, I do actually think that one's ideals do not have to match one's likes and dislikes. Admittedly.. the nose picking was taking a point to its most troll-like extreme ;-)
posted by wackybrit at 10:06 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by wackybrit at 10:06 PM on August 26, 2002
where's hama7, just for that added touch of 'homosexuality = bestiality', to make wackybrit seem sane? [/sarcasm]
wacky: it's equality, don't you get that? you are, i would guess, equally disgusted by bogey-eating whether by grown women or, more likely, little boys (the only demographic I am aware of that has ever been accused of this crime against nature). That is a bit of a strong reaction, but at least it is unbiased. Do you ever express disapproval of straight couples, hand in hand or being affectionate? How does that go down?
Why did you choose that simile, I wonder? Isn't the closest analogy to {2 gays kissing} , {2 straights kissing}? I do not feel I have to continue looking at something which to me is tasteless: like my TV has an off button, my eyes close, my head turns and my feet divert me. Like skipping offensive posts, I make a choice to continue or to not. Your protests are hollow, tho' we can all admit mistakes (as I have done, and as Zach does above)
Anyway, why is a PDA an act of sexuality? Is it not in a different category, like when you hug your uncle, or celebrate a goal, or kiss your niece on the forehead?
posted by dash_slot- at 10:07 PM on August 26, 2002
wacky: it's equality, don't you get that? you are, i would guess, equally disgusted by bogey-eating whether by grown women or, more likely, little boys (the only demographic I am aware of that has ever been accused of this crime against nature). That is a bit of a strong reaction, but at least it is unbiased. Do you ever express disapproval of straight couples, hand in hand or being affectionate? How does that go down?
Why did you choose that simile, I wonder? Isn't the closest analogy to {2 gays kissing} , {2 straights kissing}? I do not feel I have to continue looking at something which to me is tasteless: like my TV has an off button, my eyes close, my head turns and my feet divert me. Like skipping offensive posts, I make a choice to continue or to not. Your protests are hollow, tho' we can all admit mistakes (as I have done, and as Zach does above)
Anyway, why is a PDA an act of sexuality? Is it not in a different category, like when you hug your uncle, or celebrate a goal, or kiss your niece on the forehead?
posted by dash_slot- at 10:07 PM on August 26, 2002
That's what I was referring to, WackyBrit. The nose picking bit. That was over the edge.
It is a matter of personal tastes, and I understand the desire for decorum, but there's also a need for tolerance in a society that wants people to explore their freedoms. I recall a conversation I had once years ago. Me and this guy were, uhm.. comparing conquests I guess you could call it. He started going into detail about an experience he had with a lass who liked anal sex. I found this patently disturbing, but when I brought up oral sex he got grossed out. We decided to just change the subject.
I once knew a guy who never tongued. He compared open mouth sex to licking a gaping wound. From my perspective he was missing out, but he didn't see it that way. Live and let live.
I imagine some homosexuals are as grossed out by heterosexual PDA as many straights are grossed out the other way. However, again tolerance is required. Two guys holding hands does freak out some people but it really shouldn't. I mean holding hands -- whut coid it hoit?
Strangely, I'm aware that I'm not grossed out by seeing a guy and a girl tongue in public, or two girls, but seeing two guys tongue in public makes my stomach curdle. Does this mean everyone should avoid tonguing in public? I think that's silly. Sure maybe you shouldn't tongue in some public places, like at a McDonalds or a public library. At a bar though, it should be acceptable behavior. Now maybe if they're tonguing for fifteen minutes or more, they should just get a room.
But it's very subjective. You can't like, make a law about it because it's not at all cut and dried. Well okay. You COULD make a law about it but it'd be like saying no one can eat brocoli cuz it makes Bush Sr physically ill.
Sometimes PDA should be acceptable behavior regardless of gender. Like at an airport terminal if you haven't seen your partner in a long time and s/he just came back from Tokyo or Seattle. If it bugs ya, don't look at it. Don't purposefully get in someone's face and try to force them to adhere to your sense or morality.
I mean big things like stealing and killing. I agree everybody should pretty much agree to avoid those, but God never added a commandment talking about tongue.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:23 PM on August 26, 2002
It is a matter of personal tastes, and I understand the desire for decorum, but there's also a need for tolerance in a society that wants people to explore their freedoms. I recall a conversation I had once years ago. Me and this guy were, uhm.. comparing conquests I guess you could call it. He started going into detail about an experience he had with a lass who liked anal sex. I found this patently disturbing, but when I brought up oral sex he got grossed out. We decided to just change the subject.
I once knew a guy who never tongued. He compared open mouth sex to licking a gaping wound. From my perspective he was missing out, but he didn't see it that way. Live and let live.
I imagine some homosexuals are as grossed out by heterosexual PDA as many straights are grossed out the other way. However, again tolerance is required. Two guys holding hands does freak out some people but it really shouldn't. I mean holding hands -- whut coid it hoit?
Strangely, I'm aware that I'm not grossed out by seeing a guy and a girl tongue in public, or two girls, but seeing two guys tongue in public makes my stomach curdle. Does this mean everyone should avoid tonguing in public? I think that's silly. Sure maybe you shouldn't tongue in some public places, like at a McDonalds or a public library. At a bar though, it should be acceptable behavior. Now maybe if they're tonguing for fifteen minutes or more, they should just get a room.
But it's very subjective. You can't like, make a law about it because it's not at all cut and dried. Well okay. You COULD make a law about it but it'd be like saying no one can eat brocoli cuz it makes Bush Sr physically ill.
Sometimes PDA should be acceptable behavior regardless of gender. Like at an airport terminal if you haven't seen your partner in a long time and s/he just came back from Tokyo or Seattle. If it bugs ya, don't look at it. Don't purposefully get in someone's face and try to force them to adhere to your sense or morality.
I mean big things like stealing and killing. I agree everybody should pretty much agree to avoid those, but God never added a commandment talking about tongue.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:23 PM on August 26, 2002
Ah crap.
Correction for above: "open mouth sex" I meant to say "open mouth kissing." Yes my mind's in the gutter.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:24 PM on August 26, 2002
Correction for above: "open mouth sex" I meant to say "open mouth kissing." Yes my mind's in the gutter.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:24 PM on August 26, 2002
I'm all for attractive people making out in public -- regardless of sex, gender, orientation, race, creed, color, national origin, political persuasion, illegitimacy, education, appalachian ancestry, or mental or physical ability -- and unattractive people not touching each other in front of witnesses. Mayfield should have picked out individual, ugly couples and asked them to knock it off; then turned to really hot individuals (regardless of sex, gender, blah blah blah) and asked them to get it on.
posted by subgenius at 11:37 PM on August 26, 2002
posted by subgenius at 11:37 PM on August 26, 2002
(I'm a broken record about Korea, I know, but 'talk about what you know' is what they say, isn't it?)
Here in Korea, there is no homosexuality. Well Andre Kim the designer just might be (and if so it's excusable 'cause he's rich and famous), but other than him, nope, it's a foreign thing only, those dirty dirty people....
This is the prevailing attitude, although it is, just a little, beginning to change since Kim DJ started opening things up a bit 5 years ago.
But both women and men can be seen walking down the street holding hands, all the time. One of the things that inspires double takes amongst newbies here is the inevitable sight of two guys in full camo gear, doing their compulsory military service, walking down the street hand-in-hand. 'Wow,' they think, 'this place is so unexpectedly gay friendly! How cool!'
Of course it's not a sexual thing at all, it's PDA in the purest sense, and those mistaken new arrivals are invariably chagrined when they find out how closeted gays are here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:50 PM on August 26, 2002
Here in Korea, there is no homosexuality. Well Andre Kim the designer just might be (and if so it's excusable 'cause he's rich and famous), but other than him, nope, it's a foreign thing only, those dirty dirty people....
This is the prevailing attitude, although it is, just a little, beginning to change since Kim DJ started opening things up a bit 5 years ago.
But both women and men can be seen walking down the street holding hands, all the time. One of the things that inspires double takes amongst newbies here is the inevitable sight of two guys in full camo gear, doing their compulsory military service, walking down the street hand-in-hand. 'Wow,' they think, 'this place is so unexpectedly gay friendly! How cool!'
Of course it's not a sexual thing at all, it's PDA in the purest sense, and those mistaken new arrivals are invariably chagrined when they find out how closeted gays are here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:50 PM on August 26, 2002
Jewel Kilcher never attracted a lesbian crowd. Why not? Because she's hot and her songs are deep.
Are you kidding? Jewel's lyrics and writing are pure maudlin treacly crap. And her guitar playing is, well, almost as good as her songwriting. I'm saying all this and, hell, I like her. I've seen her live.
Clearly you've just got bad taste, which would explain why you're unable to enjoy watching people kissing.
posted by anildash at 2:09 AM on August 27, 2002
Are you kidding? Jewel's lyrics and writing are pure maudlin treacly crap. And her guitar playing is, well, almost as good as her songwriting. I'm saying all this and, hell, I like her. I've seen her live.
Clearly you've just got bad taste, which would explain why you're unable to enjoy watching people kissing.
posted by anildash at 2:09 AM on August 27, 2002
Jesus. Gayness should be such a non-issue in this day and age. I remember when I told my dad I was seeing a psychaitrist and he begged me not to burden my mother with this information. I guess his heart was in the right place, but his head was up his ass. When you ask someone to exercise discretion over something that is essential to who they are it has an effect, a shaming effect. It sucks. The people who do stuff like this are trying to change the world to suit their convenience and it pisses me off. "Stop being who you are for a minute so I am not affected." Ug.
On an unrelated note- Ms. Mayfield has fat arms, fat biceps.
posted by internook at 4:40 AM on August 27, 2002
On an unrelated note- Ms. Mayfield has fat arms, fat biceps.
posted by internook at 4:40 AM on August 27, 2002
Zachsmind: It seems we're in agreement then. I was not supporting the songwriters demands, or even saying that people should stop doing whatever it is they want to do, but that while I am not homophobic, I protest that straight people kissing is a whole different ballpark to gay people kissing.
I think the common stereotype is that 'our generation' is meant to be okay with all of this. If you took my 80 year old grandma, she has no prejudice against homosexuals what-so-ever, but I bet she would feel a little nauseous watching two gays kissing than two regular folk. I am just pointing out that this is not homophobia, but a matter of conditioning. If I were used to homosexuality in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid.. but since I do not even know a single homosexual person, I find them a little hard to cope with at this time.
anildash: What are you rambling on about? How can you define if someone else has good or bad taste? Taste is a personal thing, so my taste can only be bad compared to yours, but not bad per-se.
posted by wackybrit at 6:14 AM on August 27, 2002
I think the common stereotype is that 'our generation' is meant to be okay with all of this. If you took my 80 year old grandma, she has no prejudice against homosexuals what-so-ever, but I bet she would feel a little nauseous watching two gays kissing than two regular folk. I am just pointing out that this is not homophobia, but a matter of conditioning. If I were used to homosexuality in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid.. but since I do not even know a single homosexual person, I find them a little hard to cope with at this time.
anildash: What are you rambling on about? How can you define if someone else has good or bad taste? Taste is a personal thing, so my taste can only be bad compared to yours, but not bad per-se.
posted by wackybrit at 6:14 AM on August 27, 2002
Does this make me a bigot? No, because a bigot is intolerant and does not like the fact that others are different. I like the fact we have lots of different cultures in our society.. but I do not necessarily want to experience them for myself.
Yes, but what you are saying is that it's all fine with you if straight couples cuddle, kiss and are lovey-dovey with each other while out on the town, but that gay couples shouldn't be afforded the same rights of expression ... which does make you intolerant, and yes somewhat bigoted as per dictionary definition.
Main Entry: in.tol.er.ant
1 : unable or unwilling to endure
2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights : bigoted
Sure the first time I saw a gay male couple kiss right in front of me, or the first time I went to a predominantly lesbian venue, I was momentarily uncomfortable, but then I'd also just moved to Austin from an ultra conservative small town where if there were any gay people (and you know there were), they certainly didn't go around letting people know about it (out of fear most likely). After I realized that they were, in fact, just people doing what people do when they are in love (or like or lust), it wasn't an issue anymore. Now I don't notice them anymore than I do straight couples being all lovey-dovey with each other.
Quite frankly, if the site of gay and lesbian couples in love makes you uneasy and you live in Austin, I suggest that you never leave your house.
... this is not homophobia, but a matter of conditioning ...
Conditioning can be changed, but only if you want it to be.
As to the actual topic at hand, Mayfield screwed up, but having seen her perform once, I don't think it's going to affect her career all that much. I wasn't all that impressed with her abilities as a performer, and in this town ... there's always another one just like her deciding they have always wanted to be a musician. Instead of only asking the gay/lesbian group to cut out the PDAs, she should have said that no one should be doing it. At least that way she would have just looked like a total idiot and not a discriminatory bigot.
posted by Orb at 6:21 AM on August 27, 2002
Yes, but what you are saying is that it's all fine with you if straight couples cuddle, kiss and are lovey-dovey with each other while out on the town, but that gay couples shouldn't be afforded the same rights of expression ... which does make you intolerant, and yes somewhat bigoted as per dictionary definition.
Main Entry: in.tol.er.ant
1 : unable or unwilling to endure
2 a : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters b : unwilling to grant or share social, political, or professional rights : bigoted
Sure the first time I saw a gay male couple kiss right in front of me, or the first time I went to a predominantly lesbian venue, I was momentarily uncomfortable, but then I'd also just moved to Austin from an ultra conservative small town where if there were any gay people (and you know there were), they certainly didn't go around letting people know about it (out of fear most likely). After I realized that they were, in fact, just people doing what people do when they are in love (or like or lust), it wasn't an issue anymore. Now I don't notice them anymore than I do straight couples being all lovey-dovey with each other.
Quite frankly, if the site of gay and lesbian couples in love makes you uneasy and you live in Austin, I suggest that you never leave your house.
... this is not homophobia, but a matter of conditioning ...
Conditioning can be changed, but only if you want it to be.
As to the actual topic at hand, Mayfield screwed up, but having seen her perform once, I don't think it's going to affect her career all that much. I wasn't all that impressed with her abilities as a performer, and in this town ... there's always another one just like her deciding they have always wanted to be a musician. Instead of only asking the gay/lesbian group to cut out the PDAs, she should have said that no one should be doing it. At least that way she would have just looked like a total idiot and not a discriminatory bigot.
posted by Orb at 6:21 AM on August 27, 2002
If I were used to homosexuality in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid.. - Wacky.
So, how you gonna get used to it then?
posted by dash_slot- at 6:35 AM on August 27, 2002
So, how you gonna get used to it then?
posted by dash_slot- at 6:35 AM on August 27, 2002
If I were used to Black people in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid...
If I were used to jews in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid..
If I were used to tolerance in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid..
Do you like your conditioning? Do you want to keep it? Does it do any one harm, or restrict their liberties?
We're here, we're queer, we're tired of your discrimination.
It appears that on MeFi, equality is ever more popular and you are in a minority.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:39 AM on August 27, 2002
If I were used to jews in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid..
If I were used to tolerance in my local community, I may not bat an eyelid..
Do you like your conditioning? Do you want to keep it? Does it do any one harm, or restrict their liberties?
We're here, we're queer, we're tired of your discrimination.
It appears that on MeFi, equality is ever more popular and you are in a minority.
posted by dash_slot- at 6:39 AM on August 27, 2002
bas67: "And please stop with the "oh, it's titillating for guys to see girls together" crap. It's only titillating for them because they are thinking of "gay for pay" porn girls who appear to have sex with each other only until some man comes in to rescue them with his penis."
Not to get too sidetracked, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong here (and I suspect I know a little more about this than you -- no offense). I don't think most guys would differentiate between real lesbians and "gay for pay" in terms of titillation, nor do I think it's only a turn-on if there's knowledge that a penis will ultimately be involved (in fact, probably to the contrary -- men like to see people actually enjoying what they're doing, not just a prelude to what comes next).
That said, I don't doubt your last sentence for a second: "I got news for you: lesbians aren't waiting for you to join, nor do they want you to watch them anymore than they want to watch you!"
posted by pardonyou? at 6:44 AM on August 27, 2002
Not to get too sidetracked, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong here (and I suspect I know a little more about this than you -- no offense). I don't think most guys would differentiate between real lesbians and "gay for pay" in terms of titillation, nor do I think it's only a turn-on if there's knowledge that a penis will ultimately be involved (in fact, probably to the contrary -- men like to see people actually enjoying what they're doing, not just a prelude to what comes next).
That said, I don't doubt your last sentence for a second: "I got news for you: lesbians aren't waiting for you to join, nor do they want you to watch them anymore than they want to watch you!"
posted by pardonyou? at 6:44 AM on August 27, 2002
I protest that straight people kissing is a whole different ballpark to gay people kissing.
Yeah. Sure is. If you're straight-and-narrow. Can't make the heteros uncomfortable, gods no!
The clandestine mission of the footsoldiers of the Gay Agenda is this: to be afforded the same everyday rights that straight people take for granted. It's not so damned much to ask to be able to give one's sweetie an affectionate kiss if one is taken by an urge to do so, and here's a newsflash for you, wackybrit: your feelings on the subject are irrelevant.
---I've never heard of Michelle Mayfield, but now I know to avoid her like she was a straight tongue-kiss in the middle of a gay pride march.
posted by Sapphireblue at 7:31 AM on August 27, 2002
Yeah. Sure is. If you're straight-and-narrow. Can't make the heteros uncomfortable, gods no!
The clandestine mission of the footsoldiers of the Gay Agenda is this: to be afforded the same everyday rights that straight people take for granted. It's not so damned much to ask to be able to give one's sweetie an affectionate kiss if one is taken by an urge to do so, and here's a newsflash for you, wackybrit: your feelings on the subject are irrelevant.
---I've never heard of Michelle Mayfield, but now I know to avoid her like she was a straight tongue-kiss in the middle of a gay pride march.
posted by Sapphireblue at 7:31 AM on August 27, 2002
I'm going to go out on a limb and partially agree with wackybrit. I also really hate PDAs. I don't discriminate between gay or straight, it all irritates me. It's the slurping sound and the fact I'm confronted with someone else's sexual arousal. I categorise it with eating noisily on the train. I really don't want to see someone's tongue going in someone else's mouth. I also think sometimes that people only do it to say "hey look, I'm getting sex. Look, look, someone wants to shag me".
But I am a hypocrite. I've done it myself in the early stages of going out with someone and I feel very embarrassed. I'm sure nobody wanted to see that. So to everyone on South London bus and tube routes, I apologise.
posted by Summer at 7:32 AM on August 27, 2002
But I am a hypocrite. I've done it myself in the early stages of going out with someone and I feel very embarrassed. I'm sure nobody wanted to see that. So to everyone on South London bus and tube routes, I apologise.
posted by Summer at 7:32 AM on August 27, 2002
I don't think most guys would differentiate between real lesbians and "gay for pay" in terms of titillation
Oh, I absolutely disagree, pardonyou. Guys tend to be turned on by two lipstick lesbians getting it on. But not all lesbian couples look like that; I doubt a bunch of guys would be rallying around a butch couple. The "lesbianism" we see on TV isn't the reality of gay culture.
I've noticed that so many persons in this thread are tolerant of girls kissing, but get quesy when guys make out. I think this is due to two reasons:
1) We see girls kiss on TV or in straight bars all the time
2) Males don't feel their masculity is threatened when watching two girls kiss, where as they do when watching guys kiss. Straight women, having seen "lesbianism" in the media so much, have gotten over feeling threatened.
posted by jennak at 7:44 AM on August 27, 2002
Oh, I absolutely disagree, pardonyou. Guys tend to be turned on by two lipstick lesbians getting it on. But not all lesbian couples look like that; I doubt a bunch of guys would be rallying around a butch couple. The "lesbianism" we see on TV isn't the reality of gay culture.
I've noticed that so many persons in this thread are tolerant of girls kissing, but get quesy when guys make out. I think this is due to two reasons:
1) We see girls kiss on TV or in straight bars all the time
2) Males don't feel their masculity is threatened when watching two girls kiss, where as they do when watching guys kiss. Straight women, having seen "lesbianism" in the media so much, have gotten over feeling threatened.
posted by jennak at 7:44 AM on August 27, 2002
jennak: So you're saying that the difference in titillation depends on looks? That's not at all surprising. I don't think the guys would care at all about the sexuality of the girls involved though. How does she being a "real lesbian" make her less attractive?
If I see two attractive women kissing, should I ask if they're really lesbians first before I bother getting turned on?
posted by ODiV at 8:15 AM on August 27, 2002
If I see two attractive women kissing, should I ask if they're really lesbians first before I bother getting turned on?
posted by ODiV at 8:15 AM on August 27, 2002
Once again, Metafilter only sees the trees in spite of the forest.
Or something like that. Wackybrit has a completely valid point. He is *not* saying that homosexuals should not snog in public, or that blacks shouldn't walk around in public, or any one of the highly bigoted charges levied.
(and comparing PDA to just 'being' is a bit of a stretch in comparisons of tolerance, or lack thereof)
He *is* saying that he can understand that people would feel uncomfortable with gay people kissing in front of them because it is not something they have ever been accoustomed to, and in their upbringing, have probably been actively pushed to find unpleasant.
And while recognizing that Pavlovian response, he is consciously fighting it with a mental choice of acceptance.
I don't think anyone is saying it is right, but they're just saying it is. It's a fact of life. It's changing, but it's here.
I also think he's saying that everyone should show some restraint when lip-locking with their honey-pie.
That being said, I think a little affection in public is fine for everyone. Just don't go throwing tongue at every turn, except maybe at the end of a Tango. But that's an exceptional circumstance.
posted by rich at 8:16 AM on August 27, 2002
Or something like that. Wackybrit has a completely valid point. He is *not* saying that homosexuals should not snog in public, or that blacks shouldn't walk around in public, or any one of the highly bigoted charges levied.
(and comparing PDA to just 'being' is a bit of a stretch in comparisons of tolerance, or lack thereof)
He *is* saying that he can understand that people would feel uncomfortable with gay people kissing in front of them because it is not something they have ever been accoustomed to, and in their upbringing, have probably been actively pushed to find unpleasant.
And while recognizing that Pavlovian response, he is consciously fighting it with a mental choice of acceptance.
I don't think anyone is saying it is right, but they're just saying it is. It's a fact of life. It's changing, but it's here.
I also think he's saying that everyone should show some restraint when lip-locking with their honey-pie.
That being said, I think a little affection in public is fine for everyone. Just don't go throwing tongue at every turn, except maybe at the end of a Tango. But that's an exceptional circumstance.
posted by rich at 8:16 AM on August 27, 2002
stavros, that Andre Kim needs some makeup lessons quick...
and I'll bet that not all the same-sex couples walking down the street hand-in-hand are straight people....it's effective camo (of a different sort) for Korean queers ; >
posted by amberglow at 9:21 AM on August 27, 2002
and I'll bet that not all the same-sex couples walking down the street hand-in-hand are straight people....it's effective camo (of a different sort) for Korean queers ; >
posted by amberglow at 9:21 AM on August 27, 2002
i vote for random street hugging and sending spontaneous
love notes in the park .
by the way my american chums ,
please dont associate the scots and the welsh with the
'brit' title.........................
it only really means the southern english...
as far as i am concerned ,
a lesbian couple making out should be installed on every
street corner immediately..........
however i vote for a complete ban on country music...
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:51 AM on August 27, 2002
love notes in the park .
by the way my american chums ,
please dont associate the scots and the welsh with the
'brit' title.........................
it only really means the southern english...
as far as i am concerned ,
a lesbian couple making out should be installed on every
street corner immediately..........
however i vote for a complete ban on country music...
posted by sgt.serenity at 9:51 AM on August 27, 2002
The rest of Texas I have seen and experienced, on too many occasions, sure does not like queer folk. -- TskTsk
I dunno, I've been in Dallas most of my adult life...with brief stints in Austin and San Marcos for college...and I have to say that Dallas is gay friendly. (It's also pretty pagan friendly, goth friendly, polyamorous friendly, crossdresser friendly...really...we're right nice people down here.)
We have a huge gay community and neighborhood...many, many gay bars, hell, the biggest party of the year is the Halloween Party in Oak Lawn.
Dallas is not shy about our gay people...and our gay people are not shy about being here...or being queer. So, trust me when I tell you that unless you're hanging out with some fairly repressed folks...Texas is not what you seem to think it is.
(Dallas, Austin, Houston...all with really big gay communities...hardly a hotbed of homophobia...at least in the cities.)
posted by dejah420 at 10:02 AM on August 27, 2002
I dunno, I've been in Dallas most of my adult life...with brief stints in Austin and San Marcos for college...and I have to say that Dallas is gay friendly. (It's also pretty pagan friendly, goth friendly, polyamorous friendly, crossdresser friendly...really...we're right nice people down here.)
We have a huge gay community and neighborhood...many, many gay bars, hell, the biggest party of the year is the Halloween Party in Oak Lawn.
Dallas is not shy about our gay people...and our gay people are not shy about being here...or being queer. So, trust me when I tell you that unless you're hanging out with some fairly repressed folks...Texas is not what you seem to think it is.
(Dallas, Austin, Houston...all with really big gay communities...hardly a hotbed of homophobia...at least in the cities.)
posted by dejah420 at 10:02 AM on August 27, 2002
"He *is* saying that he can understand that people would feel uncomfortable with gay people kissing in front of them" No, he is saying HE is uncomfortable.
"he is consciously fighting it with a mental choice of acceptance." Really? Could you quote where he is so accepting? I've looked & can't find it anywhere.
wacky's first several comments were relatively even handed: then he compared simple affection between two people as "you really don't want to see it." - like eating "nose dirt"! Wow, acceptance like that I can do without.
He also makes the point that "Public displays of affection are the same whether the people committing the acts are gay or straight" is "Nonsense."
Wacky: No-one wants you to experience things without consent: thats illegal & immoral, right?
Kissing in public, with or without tongues, is natural and healthy, if not taken to an extreme.
Get this: if you ascribe different rights, etc, to different groups, you have a problem. Not me.
BTW: So, how you gonna get used to it then? Why not try that desensitisation therapy, gradually approaching closer and closer, until it doesn't bother you anymore. You can always look away.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:11 AM on August 27, 2002
"he is consciously fighting it with a mental choice of acceptance." Really? Could you quote where he is so accepting? I've looked & can't find it anywhere.
wacky's first several comments were relatively even handed: then he compared simple affection between two people as "you really don't want to see it." - like eating "nose dirt"! Wow, acceptance like that I can do without.
He also makes the point that "Public displays of affection are the same whether the people committing the acts are gay or straight" is "Nonsense."
Wacky: No-one wants you to experience things without consent: thats illegal & immoral, right?
Kissing in public, with or without tongues, is natural and healthy, if not taken to an extreme.
Get this: if you ascribe different rights, etc, to different groups, you have a problem. Not me.
BTW: So, how you gonna get used to it then? Why not try that desensitisation therapy, gradually approaching closer and closer, until it doesn't bother you anymore. You can always look away.
posted by dash_slot- at 10:11 AM on August 27, 2002
People gotta learn to mind their own business.
Whaddya you care if a couple chicks want to make out at some PE teacher's hootenany? Big whoop.
posted by UncleFes at 10:31 AM on August 27, 2002
Whaddya you care if a couple chicks want to make out at some PE teacher's hootenany? Big whoop.
posted by UncleFes at 10:31 AM on August 27, 2002
rich: Wackybrit has a completely valid point.
In his first post, which implied that same-sex "pecking" would be ok by him, he did, yes. But that was it. Soon, he offered a delightful insult to "lesbian groupies," who apparently only like ugly butch women, and then presented the community with the "queer PDAs = snot-eating" post. In that gem, he blurs his own line between previously acceptable "pecks" and gross tongue-wrestlings by condemning homosexuals "being intimate" in public. Hmm. Does holding hands count? One wonders if grandma would get "nauseous" at that.
Throughout this all-over-the-map adventure, including the obvious insults, the queer folks at MeFi have once again demonstrate the patience of Job, refusing to take the bait. Eventually, wackybrit, perhaps embarrassed at not seeing the outraged fury that would have then validated his "right not to be particularly comfortable" with lesbians and gays, began to admit he'd been trolling and started downgrading his obnoxious and insulting rhetoric to fit, you know, reality.
How you get from that to "Once again, Metafilter only sees the trees in spite of the forest" is beyond me.
posted by mediareport at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2002
In his first post, which implied that same-sex "pecking" would be ok by him, he did, yes. But that was it. Soon, he offered a delightful insult to "lesbian groupies," who apparently only like ugly butch women, and then presented the community with the "queer PDAs = snot-eating" post. In that gem, he blurs his own line between previously acceptable "pecks" and gross tongue-wrestlings by condemning homosexuals "being intimate" in public. Hmm. Does holding hands count? One wonders if grandma would get "nauseous" at that.
Throughout this all-over-the-map adventure, including the obvious insults, the queer folks at MeFi have once again demonstrate the patience of Job, refusing to take the bait. Eventually, wackybrit, perhaps embarrassed at not seeing the outraged fury that would have then validated his "right not to be particularly comfortable" with lesbians and gays, began to admit he'd been trolling and started downgrading his obnoxious and insulting rhetoric to fit, you know, reality.
How you get from that to "Once again, Metafilter only sees the trees in spite of the forest" is beyond me.
posted by mediareport at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2002
Coming in late to the discussion, possibly never to be seen, but...
I had a favorite local band some years ago who became extremely popular with the local lesbian community. For years, I've hung with and been tight with many gays & lesbians, I have no problem with displays of queer affection at all (in fact, I've been known to engage in them if the vibe is right). But gradually, once a week, my local bar & favorite band became filled with lesbians. Soon, a vocal minority managed to make the scene very uncomfortable for us "straights" who had previously supported the venue and artist. The word went around that a certain night was now "lesbian night" at the bar, and suddenly the regulars stayed away. Not because of the dykes, but because there was a very obvious agenda to keep us away.
I didn't appreciate it, and neither did the band. This vocal minority was interested in creating a space for themselves, without regard to the business (this was not a drinking crowd) or the artist (who soon couldn't get booked anywhere but queer-friendly places). The band finally quit playing, not just because of this but definitely in part. It was a sad thing.
Anyway, back to the point - this e-mail is silly, poorly worded, probably offensive, and definitely ill-advised. Never the less, I wonder if people understand that it possibly has roots in something genuine...
posted by Banky_Edwards at 11:09 AM on August 27, 2002
I had a favorite local band some years ago who became extremely popular with the local lesbian community. For years, I've hung with and been tight with many gays & lesbians, I have no problem with displays of queer affection at all (in fact, I've been known to engage in them if the vibe is right). But gradually, once a week, my local bar & favorite band became filled with lesbians. Soon, a vocal minority managed to make the scene very uncomfortable for us "straights" who had previously supported the venue and artist. The word went around that a certain night was now "lesbian night" at the bar, and suddenly the regulars stayed away. Not because of the dykes, but because there was a very obvious agenda to keep us away.
I didn't appreciate it, and neither did the band. This vocal minority was interested in creating a space for themselves, without regard to the business (this was not a drinking crowd) or the artist (who soon couldn't get booked anywhere but queer-friendly places). The band finally quit playing, not just because of this but definitely in part. It was a sad thing.
Anyway, back to the point - this e-mail is silly, poorly worded, probably offensive, and definitely ill-advised. Never the less, I wonder if people understand that it possibly has roots in something genuine...
posted by Banky_Edwards at 11:09 AM on August 27, 2002
I'd just like to point out that I grew up in Santa Fe, and thus around many many homosexual people, and in my personal experience, lesbians are way more likely than any other pairing (hetero or male homo) to aggressively throw their sexuality in people's faces.
I'm not talking about PDAs, I'm talking about PDSs (Public Displays of Sexuality). Hetero couples rarely tongue and pet in public once they get out of high school. Male homosexual couples typically hold hands or arms. But lesbians will tongue-kiss, pet each other, dry-hump each other etc. in front of anyone.
Again, this is just my personal experience, but I have on occasion had to ask lesbian couples to leave gatherings that I have hosted because they refused to stop making out in public. Public displays of affection are great. They remind us of how great love is, and how wonderful it is to share the world with someone. But public displays of sexuality are offensive to many people, whether hetero or homo.
I'm guessing this is what she was complaining about. And if anyone thinks I'm against sex, think again. I just think that in today's society, it is a given that you don't have intense sexual contact in public. 'Nuff said.
posted by hurkle at 11:59 AM on August 27, 2002
I'm not talking about PDAs, I'm talking about PDSs (Public Displays of Sexuality). Hetero couples rarely tongue and pet in public once they get out of high school. Male homosexual couples typically hold hands or arms. But lesbians will tongue-kiss, pet each other, dry-hump each other etc. in front of anyone.
Again, this is just my personal experience, but I have on occasion had to ask lesbian couples to leave gatherings that I have hosted because they refused to stop making out in public. Public displays of affection are great. They remind us of how great love is, and how wonderful it is to share the world with someone. But public displays of sexuality are offensive to many people, whether hetero or homo.
I'm guessing this is what she was complaining about. And if anyone thinks I'm against sex, think again. I just think that in today's society, it is a given that you don't have intense sexual contact in public. 'Nuff said.
posted by hurkle at 11:59 AM on August 27, 2002
rich has taken my point and formed it into a concise unoffensive post, so if you want to really get the jist of what I'm saying, he's on the ball.
what you are saying is that it's all fine with you if straight couples cuddle, kiss and are lovey-dovey with each other while out on the town, but that gay couples shouldn't be afforded the same rights of expression
Incorrect. I am saying that they should be allowed to do what they want (within law), and for the second time I shall say.. I do not agree with the songwriter whom this thread is about!
However, I am arguing against the person who said that anyone who dislikes watching homosexuals getting intimate is a bigot. That is simply not true.
Just because I do not like to experience something does not mean I am against it! Of course, it seems this cannot be beaten into the heads of those of you who want to sign me off as a bigot without realizing that a bigot is someone who wants to stop people being different, and not someone who will just walk away from something they find uncomfortable. I am comfortably in the latter group.
I do not find homosexuality particularly endearing (since I am heterosexual!) but I support the rights of homosexuals to live their lives as they will.. but I want the right to be able to 'walk away' from experiencing it without being labelled a 'bigot'!
In a similar way, I am anti-alcohol and anti-smoking.. but I do not want these substances to be banned. I simply choose not to have to put up with them myself, and will simply walk away from atmospheres where they are present.
posted by wackybrit at 1:49 PM on August 27, 2002
what you are saying is that it's all fine with you if straight couples cuddle, kiss and are lovey-dovey with each other while out on the town, but that gay couples shouldn't be afforded the same rights of expression
Incorrect. I am saying that they should be allowed to do what they want (within law), and for the second time I shall say.. I do not agree with the songwriter whom this thread is about!
However, I am arguing against the person who said that anyone who dislikes watching homosexuals getting intimate is a bigot. That is simply not true.
Just because I do not like to experience something does not mean I am against it! Of course, it seems this cannot be beaten into the heads of those of you who want to sign me off as a bigot without realizing that a bigot is someone who wants to stop people being different, and not someone who will just walk away from something they find uncomfortable. I am comfortably in the latter group.
I do not find homosexuality particularly endearing (since I am heterosexual!) but I support the rights of homosexuals to live their lives as they will.. but I want the right to be able to 'walk away' from experiencing it without being labelled a 'bigot'!
In a similar way, I am anti-alcohol and anti-smoking.. but I do not want these substances to be banned. I simply choose not to have to put up with them myself, and will simply walk away from atmospheres where they are present.
posted by wackybrit at 1:49 PM on August 27, 2002
I'm not talking about PDAs, I'm talking about PDSs (Public Displays of Sexuality). Hetero couples rarely tongue and pet in public once they get out of high school. Male homosexual couples typically hold hands or arms. But lesbians will tongue-kiss, pet each other, dry-hump each other etc. in front of anyone.
Oh yes. Straights and gays never do PDS -- only lesbians. You realize your point makes you sound ignorant, right?
"Public Displays of Sexuality" are icky no matter the sexual orientation of love being displayed. But then the singer should have addressed her email to that kind of behaviour, rather than pointing her finger at a (I'm sure largely) blameless group of people.
posted by jennak at 2:00 PM on August 27, 2002
Oh yes. Straights and gays never do PDS -- only lesbians. You realize your point makes you sound ignorant, right?
"Public Displays of Sexuality" are icky no matter the sexual orientation of love being displayed. But then the singer should have addressed her email to that kind of behaviour, rather than pointing her finger at a (I'm sure largely) blameless group of people.
posted by jennak at 2:00 PM on August 27, 2002
they are thinking of "gay for pay" porn girls who appear to have sex with each other only until some man comes in to rescue them with his penis.
You rang?
posted by Ty Webb at 3:43 PM on August 27, 2002
You rang?
posted by Ty Webb at 3:43 PM on August 27, 2002
But lesbians will tongue-kiss, pet each other, dry-hump each other etc. in front of anyone
Oh, that wacky, wacky brit. Is that how it goes, wb? Keep the fire going by pretending to be oh-so-reasonable and then slip in something deliberately stupid and insulting to get the queers going for another round or two?
Is there anyone who still thinks it's worthwhile to respond to wb on queer issues after this?
posted by mediareport at 3:59 PM on August 27, 2002
Oh, that wacky, wacky brit. Is that how it goes, wb? Keep the fire going by pretending to be oh-so-reasonable and then slip in something deliberately stupid and insulting to get the queers going for another round or two?
Is there anyone who still thinks it's worthwhile to respond to wb on queer issues after this?
posted by mediareport at 3:59 PM on August 27, 2002
Hurkle...I'm not sure where you have been hanging out, but in my experience, the opposite is true. I have seen vastly more PDS's from heterosexual couples. These seem to happen most in "mixed" environments, where some heterosexual people suddenly become filled with the desire to prove they're straight in the most conclusive possible way. (Note: This is not anti-straight bias. I, too, am heterosexual. I just don't have sex on the floor at live music shows. Yes, I have seen this happen, to my horror.)
Jennak's point hits home here: if certain types of behavior offend our folksinging friend, she should have clarified that certain behavior was causing her problems. Instead, she chose to send a note that implied that anything goes, as long as the people doing it are opposite genders. Straights having sex on the floor? Fine with her. Lesbian pecks on the cheek, on the other hand, giver her the willies.
Luckily, as the NY Times article linked above (Thanks stonerose!) indicates, this is likely to be self-punishing bigotry. She thinks there's some other folkmusic audience out there for her to pick up, but there isn't. So she's just seriously damaged her career. Serves her right.
posted by 23lemurs at 4:09 PM on August 27, 2002
Jennak's point hits home here: if certain types of behavior offend our folksinging friend, she should have clarified that certain behavior was causing her problems. Instead, she chose to send a note that implied that anything goes, as long as the people doing it are opposite genders. Straights having sex on the floor? Fine with her. Lesbian pecks on the cheek, on the other hand, giver her the willies.
Luckily, as the NY Times article linked above (Thanks stonerose!) indicates, this is likely to be self-punishing bigotry. She thinks there's some other folkmusic audience out there for her to pick up, but there isn't. So she's just seriously damaged her career. Serves her right.
posted by 23lemurs at 4:09 PM on August 27, 2002
...I'm not sure where you have been hanging out, but in my experience, the opposite is true. I have seen vastly more PDS's from heterosexual couples...
me too, 23lemurs...and isn't it funny--I've never seen anyone complain about them--they just ignore the behavior...hmmmm
posted by amberglow at 5:53 PM on August 27, 2002
me too, 23lemurs...and isn't it funny--I've never seen anyone complain about them--they just ignore the behavior...hmmmm
posted by amberglow at 5:53 PM on August 27, 2002
ZM: You can't let closed minds scare you into hiding who you are.
Note upfront: I don't think you were necessarily doing what I'm about to rant about, ZM, and this is not meant to flame you. You brought the issue to my mind is all. With that in mind:
Yes, you damn well can let the bigots scare you. Some of those fuckers are downright dangerous! Not everyone can be all big and brave, and it chafes my scrote when people demand that someone else make a stand against a threat that they will never face themselves. Coming out of the closet about any difference that the mainstream doesn't tolerate takes enormous courage, which should be applauded and supported but not demanded.
posted by sennoma at 6:13 PM on August 27, 2002
Note upfront: I don't think you were necessarily doing what I'm about to rant about, ZM, and this is not meant to flame you. You brought the issue to my mind is all. With that in mind:
Yes, you damn well can let the bigots scare you. Some of those fuckers are downright dangerous! Not everyone can be all big and brave, and it chafes my scrote when people demand that someone else make a stand against a threat that they will never face themselves. Coming out of the closet about any difference that the mainstream doesn't tolerate takes enormous courage, which should be applauded and supported but not demanded.
posted by sennoma at 6:13 PM on August 27, 2002
Jennak's point hits home here: if certain types of behavior offend our folksinging friend, she should have clarified that certain behavior was causing her problems.
Hell, for some folks (perhaps including that straight guy in the bathroom) just being in a room with a visible lesbian presence is cause enough for complaining. Despite what some in this thread have seen of horribly misbehaving queers, we still don't know that there were any actual "behaviors" that caused the complaints. For all we know, a bar owner might be objecting to the mere fact that there were -- gasp! -- a few dozen obvious lesbian couples in the house. In fact, I find that much more plausible than the idea that there was seriously inappropriate behavior going on.
posted by mediareport at 7:05 PM on August 27, 2002
Hell, for some folks (perhaps including that straight guy in the bathroom) just being in a room with a visible lesbian presence is cause enough for complaining. Despite what some in this thread have seen of horribly misbehaving queers, we still don't know that there were any actual "behaviors" that caused the complaints. For all we know, a bar owner might be objecting to the mere fact that there were -- gasp! -- a few dozen obvious lesbian couples in the house. In fact, I find that much more plausible than the idea that there was seriously inappropriate behavior going on.
posted by mediareport at 7:05 PM on August 27, 2002
sennoma: word. Coming out to your sister or lil brother is scary enough, but it seems that effectively coming out by holding hands in public, strolling in the park or wherever, is only for the 6 foot biker (as mentioned above) or in a very safe space - hence Pride, Mardi-Gras, etc. It's no wonder really that we can occasionally go OTT.
It's along time coming, but... a change is gonna come.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:12 PM on August 27, 2002
It's along time coming, but... a change is gonna come.
posted by dash_slot- at 7:12 PM on August 27, 2002
Oh yes. Straights and gays never do PDS -- only lesbians. You realize your point makes you sound ignorant, right?
Hmmm. First Jennak misquotes me, then she/he attacks that misquote. And Jennak says *I* sound ignorant?!
I repeat... IN MY EXPERIENCE this is what I have seen. My cousin's gay; several of my best female friends are gay; I'm not prejudiced... I have just observed this behavior. If you haven't that's fine, but don't try to stifle my viewpoint simply because you don't like what I'm saying. It's not hateful, and in my life experience, it's true.
Oh, and mediareport... I'm not wackybrit whoever that is; and I'm not trolling your sensitive and tender ideals. I'm saying that in my experience, lesbians are way more in your face with their sexuality, unmindful of societal mores. More than male homosexuals. More than heteros. If you all think that makes me bad, or ignorant, or foolish, enjoy your self-righteousness.
posted by hurkle at 10:01 AM on August 28, 2002
Hmmm. First Jennak misquotes me, then she/he attacks that misquote. And Jennak says *I* sound ignorant?!
I repeat... IN MY EXPERIENCE this is what I have seen. My cousin's gay; several of my best female friends are gay; I'm not prejudiced... I have just observed this behavior. If you haven't that's fine, but don't try to stifle my viewpoint simply because you don't like what I'm saying. It's not hateful, and in my life experience, it's true.
Oh, and mediareport... I'm not wackybrit whoever that is; and I'm not trolling your sensitive and tender ideals. I'm saying that in my experience, lesbians are way more in your face with their sexuality, unmindful of societal mores. More than male homosexuals. More than heteros. If you all think that makes me bad, or ignorant, or foolish, enjoy your self-righteousness.
posted by hurkle at 10:01 AM on August 28, 2002
I never said you were wackybrit, I just said that despite what some in this thread have seen of horribly misbehaving queers, we still don't know that there were any actual "behaviors" that caused the complaints.
What was that about misquoting somebody?
posted by mediareport at 10:18 AM on August 28, 2002
What was that about misquoting somebody?
posted by mediareport at 10:18 AM on August 28, 2002
hurkle, maybe you just notice it more because it's coming from lesbians? we're all pretty much inoculated against noticing straight people doing this kind of stuff because we see it everyday...or at least I do.....
posted by amberglow at 11:45 AM on August 28, 2002
posted by amberglow at 11:45 AM on August 28, 2002
That's a good point, amberglow. I think that perhaps because I lived in a very homosexual-friendly city, there may have been a higher percentage of lesbian and gay PDS than in other cities. However, I honestly can state that I never saw any of my male homosexual friends rolling around on the floor, making out with their clothes in disarray, or any other such behavior. Well, except for the night I went to the local gay club and saw a heck of a lot more than that, but that was adults-only... an entirely separate venue from the general public.
And mediareport... you quoted my post in a response to wackybrit. What was I supposed to think, except that you had confused us? :)
posted by hurkle at 12:24 PM on August 28, 2002
And mediareport... you quoted my post in a response to wackybrit. What was I supposed to think, except that you had confused us? :)
posted by hurkle at 12:24 PM on August 28, 2002
I just love the topic drift in MeFi. This thread has deteriorated from an issue of an aspiring performer dissing her own audience to a debate over sexuality.
MeFi ROCKS!
posted by ZachsMind at 12:47 PM on August 28, 2002
MeFi ROCKS!
posted by ZachsMind at 12:47 PM on August 28, 2002
I never saw any of my male homosexual friends rolling around on the floor, making out with their clothes in disarray, or any other such behavior.
Why then, you simply haven't *lived*!
;)
posted by mediareport at 2:29 PM on August 28, 2002
Why then, you simply haven't *lived*!
;)
posted by mediareport at 2:29 PM on August 28, 2002
Well, except for the night I went to the local gay club
Maybe that's the thing - a lot of lezzie clubs aren't specifically sex spots but women will start making out etc , esp if they consider it a friendly environment (gay friendly bar with folk rock singer & lotsa girls, eg) whereas the boys can just head to the known cruising area/club. I think there may also be a subset of lesbians who are more political than gay men or heteros about their sexuality and who do want to make it clear how they're oriented. it's also possible that girls in general like to kiss more than boys do.
posted by mdn at 3:14 PM on August 28, 2002
Maybe that's the thing - a lot of lezzie clubs aren't specifically sex spots but women will start making out etc , esp if they consider it a friendly environment (gay friendly bar with folk rock singer & lotsa girls, eg) whereas the boys can just head to the known cruising area/club. I think there may also be a subset of lesbians who are more political than gay men or heteros about their sexuality and who do want to make it clear how they're oriented. it's also possible that girls in general like to kiss more than boys do.
posted by mdn at 3:14 PM on August 28, 2002
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Now that we've gotten *that* out of the way, I'm curious what people think about the appropriateness of Mayfield's request. Without knowing exactly what "type of behavior" has been seen, it's tough to know what to think. If it's the kind of hand-holding, cuddling and kissing straight folks do at concerts all the time, I think Mayfield is being incredibly rude to her audience in her pursuit of larger fame. Pandering to mainstream discomfort after attracting a loyal queer audience is truly horrid. But if hordes of sex-crazed lesbians have been fucking each other in front of the stage during her shows, well, she just might have a point.
And, yeah, I'm wondering if she's yet another of those semi-out queers whose discomfort with their own sexuality gets worked out in public because they happen to be entertainers. Ugh.
posted by mediareport at 5:59 PM on August 26, 2002