September 28, 2002
5:28 PM Subscribe
Owner takes car to dealer.
Tech takes car on joyride at 140 mph.
Tech writes up experience and posts to internet.
Owner reads tech's post.
Hilarity ensues!
Dear tech: You are not the only person in the state of Texas who uses the internet... dumb.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 5:35 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 5:35 PM on September 28, 2002
second. funniest. post. ever.
i for one, welcome our new succint posting under-load.
my dumbest mustang (86') ride was 87 mph on Chevrolet Ave...shit, who cares. man, bragging will get you everytime.
hey, no throughing of motors from the gallery.
posted by clavdivs at 6:08 PM on September 28, 2002
i for one, welcome our new succint posting under-load.
my dumbest mustang (86') ride was 87 mph on Chevrolet Ave...shit, who cares. man, bragging will get you everytime.
hey, no throughing of motors from the gallery.
posted by clavdivs at 6:08 PM on September 28, 2002
Did someone cache these? The latter link's not working.
posted by hobbes at 6:33 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by hobbes at 6:33 PM on September 28, 2002
I looked at this last night, and the car boards were getting crushed even before we linked it. The first part of the thread, where the dude brags about how sweet it was to drive the customer's ride at 140 and posts her personalized license tag for good measure, may be old enough to be on Google.
posted by crunchburger at 6:49 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by crunchburger at 6:49 PM on September 28, 2002
Also worth noting, said hilarity has reached car-enthusiast message boards in Australia. This guy is globally screwed.
posted by swerve at 7:37 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by swerve at 7:37 PM on September 28, 2002
I especially enjoyed the post from the Japanese reader who would want the tech to commit ritual suicide.
That's priceless.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:10 PM on September 28, 2002
That's priceless.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 8:10 PM on September 28, 2002
OT: It's after reading sites like these I'm glad we don't having animated GIF smilies and sigs.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:43 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by nathan_teske at 8:43 PM on September 28, 2002
NEEDLESS TO SAY, IT IS OWNED BY A FEMALE,
Funny how he tries to play her off as dumb when he's the one posting about this online, and even printing her plate number as well (looks like it's been taken out since).
posted by adampsyche at 9:02 PM on September 28, 2002
Funny how he tries to play her off as dumb when he's the one posting about this online, and even printing her plate number as well (looks like it's been taken out since).
posted by adampsyche at 9:02 PM on September 28, 2002
This smells contrived to me. Its a pretty big net out there, and the supposed tech's bragging lays out entirely too much detail. Anyone want to bet on whether the gumshoes will be posting about this in short order?
posted by TuffAustin at 9:21 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by TuffAustin at 9:21 PM on September 28, 2002
I wouldn't be shocked if it was true, people can be shockingly stupid. My husband's pickup was hit last winter and required some bodywork. He reset the mileage counter and noted the odometer before dropping it off (he's paranoid). Sure enough after picking it up (a week later than they originally estimated) the mileage counter and odometer confirmed that 200 miles had been put on it since it was dropped off. You'd think the person who took it out would have at least reset the mileage counter, but nope.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:36 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:36 PM on September 28, 2002
Hm... I should see if I can use the word shocked, or some variation of, in a sentence three times in my next post!
oops.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:44 PM on September 28, 2002
oops.
posted by Kellydamnit at 9:44 PM on September 28, 2002
OT: It's after reading sites like these I'm glad we don't having animated GIF smilies and sigs.
![](http://hatori42.com/hellokittybeingchacedbyawulf_files/hello.gif)
Hrm...
posted by delmoi at 9:46 PM on September 28, 2002
![](http://hatori42.com/hellokittybeingchacedbyawulf_files/hello.gif)
Hrm...
posted by delmoi at 9:46 PM on September 28, 2002
I don't think this one is going to be snoped. The shop was Northside Ford in SA. The tech has been fired. It is the only authorized SVT shop in SA...and they've had this problem before, as well as a few others. As reputable car dealerships go, these guys have burned a lot of bridges.
The website for the dealership has been removed and now redirects to ford directly. Dunno what that means, but this may have been the straw that broke the camel's back...and Ford may be doing something to finally protect their brand and the customers.
But, this type of occurrence is not uncommon. It's happened enough with my Cobra and my Camaro that I have a hidden GPS tracker with a battery that I turn on if I leave the Camaro at a dealership. (Sold the Cobra.) That way I have logs of where it went and how fast it went there. I've had much stuff replaced free on my car because I've been able to prove that techs were abusing her.
posted by dejah420 at 10:06 PM on September 28, 2002
The website for the dealership has been removed and now redirects to ford directly. Dunno what that means, but this may have been the straw that broke the camel's back...and Ford may be doing something to finally protect their brand and the customers.
But, this type of occurrence is not uncommon. It's happened enough with my Cobra and my Camaro that I have a hidden GPS tracker with a battery that I turn on if I leave the Camaro at a dealership. (Sold the Cobra.) That way I have logs of where it went and how fast it went there. I've had much stuff replaced free on my car because I've been able to prove that techs were abusing her.
posted by dejah420 at 10:06 PM on September 28, 2002
Dear Road & Track,
I never thought I'd be writing to you, but in 1988, when I was a college student working part time as a parking valet at a luxury resort, I took a 2 a.m. joyride in a Ferrari Testarossa on Pacific Coast Highway in Newport Beach, CA. The owner had come out of the hotel in search of cigarettes, almost too drunk to stand. Being a humanitarian, I volunteered to drive him, and he passed out as soon as I strapped him in, so I had my way with his red-headed beauty, all over the waterfront. I probably should have told him about the cigarette machine in the hotel.
posted by planetkyoto at 10:10 PM on September 28, 2002
I never thought I'd be writing to you, but in 1988, when I was a college student working part time as a parking valet at a luxury resort, I took a 2 a.m. joyride in a Ferrari Testarossa on Pacific Coast Highway in Newport Beach, CA. The owner had come out of the hotel in search of cigarettes, almost too drunk to stand. Being a humanitarian, I volunteered to drive him, and he passed out as soon as I strapped him in, so I had my way with his red-headed beauty, all over the waterfront. I probably should have told him about the cigarette machine in the hotel.
posted by planetkyoto at 10:10 PM on September 28, 2002
Interesting story...clicked through several of the threads. Had no idea that certain types of car owners are so very...uh...*devoted* to their particular brand of car. Having just moved FROM San Antonio (where this occurred), and being a Ford owner, I'm just glad that I never used Northside Ford for service, sales, or parts. Typical response from the dealer, though; this could have been a golden opportunity to right a wrong, get some great word-of-mouth publicity for doing the right thing and making a p-o'd customer happy, etc, but instead it looks like the dealer is doing the "deny, deny, deny" thing.
posted by davidmsc at 10:33 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by davidmsc at 10:33 PM on September 28, 2002
I like how the tech comments at the end of the first page that he doubts the owner reads the boards, although it is possible.
posted by stoneegg21 at 10:54 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by stoneegg21 at 10:54 PM on September 28, 2002
I think that the best thing to come out of this is that people will be even more skeptical of auto dealerships and service technicians- especially when other technicians in those threads commented that this kind of abuse of customer vehicles is commonplace across the industry.
posted by gen at 11:38 PM on September 28, 2002
posted by gen at 11:38 PM on September 28, 2002
Also worth noting, said hilarity has reached car-enthusiast message boards in Australia.
I don't think there's a car-related website this hasn't reached. I love how folks are checking in from everywhere - Honda Prelude sites, Dodge Viper sites, BMWs, Acuras, Nissans, VWs, even Subarus - are checking in to offer their support (and taking a few lines to brag a bit about their cars, with signatures that include photos and all stats!).
I think Northside Ford in San Antonio is screwed. But yeah, the bigger picture of how this kind of abuse is common is more disturbing.
posted by pzarquon at 11:56 PM on September 28, 2002
I don't think there's a car-related website this hasn't reached. I love how folks are checking in from everywhere - Honda Prelude sites, Dodge Viper sites, BMWs, Acuras, Nissans, VWs, even Subarus - are checking in to offer their support (and taking a few lines to brag a bit about their cars, with signatures that include photos and all stats!).
I think Northside Ford in San Antonio is screwed. But yeah, the bigger picture of how this kind of abuse is common is more disturbing.
posted by pzarquon at 11:56 PM on September 28, 2002
How unbelievably funny is this whole car enthusiasts scene on the unintentional comedy scale?
MAN IT WAS WAY COOL, DROVE A '03 COBRA VERT TODAY THAT WAS IN THE SHOP, ME AND ANOTHER TECH TOOK IT OUT AND DROVE IT, DROVE HER HARD, 6 SPEED TRANNY, WE HIT 140 MPH REAL QUICK, TALK ABOUT POWER. NOT THAT WE DO IT HERE ALL THE TIME, BUT I JUST HAD TO RUN IT, IT WAS CALLING MY NAME
but but but........... i had to show my enthusiam!!!! lmao...
you had to have been there!!! come visit me here, we can test all the svt vehicles..
Customers would be complaining about tires coming back bald after the car was serviced...
what bald tires, i dont know what you are talkin bout willis
Wow.
posted by wklang at 12:42 AM on September 29, 2002
MAN IT WAS WAY COOL, DROVE A '03 COBRA VERT TODAY THAT WAS IN THE SHOP, ME AND ANOTHER TECH TOOK IT OUT AND DROVE IT, DROVE HER HARD, 6 SPEED TRANNY, WE HIT 140 MPH REAL QUICK, TALK ABOUT POWER. NOT THAT WE DO IT HERE ALL THE TIME, BUT I JUST HAD TO RUN IT, IT WAS CALLING MY NAME
but but but........... i had to show my enthusiam!!!! lmao...
you had to have been there!!! come visit me here, we can test all the svt vehicles..
Customers would be complaining about tires coming back bald after the car was serviced...
what bald tires, i dont know what you are talkin bout willis
Wow.
posted by wklang at 12:42 AM on September 29, 2002
Reminds me of a proverb: "A man's riches may ransom his life, but a poor man hears no threat." (Prov 13:8 NIV)
-- an unthreatened owner of a 2001 Saturn SL1 :-)
posted by tbc at 3:15 AM on September 29, 2002
-- an unthreatened owner of a 2001 Saturn SL1 :-)
posted by tbc at 3:15 AM on September 29, 2002
Way to make yourself more unpopular than Saddam Hussein.
posted by Joeforking at 4:35 AM on September 29, 2002
posted by Joeforking at 4:35 AM on September 29, 2002
I blame Ferris Bueller's Day Off.
posted by soundofsuburbia at 4:51 AM on September 29, 2002
posted by soundofsuburbia at 4:51 AM on September 29, 2002
That's why I have this boring and uninspiring Nissan: who wants to steal that car or play around? Nobody. I don't even really care when so idiot does body damage. And yes, japanese cars don't break down.
posted by ugly_n_sticky at 8:41 AM on September 29, 2002
posted by ugly_n_sticky at 8:41 AM on September 29, 2002
You call it rust, I call it theft deterrent. Nobody ever wants to steal my beat-up '94 Ranger.
posted by littlegirlblue at 8:48 AM on September 29, 2002
posted by littlegirlblue at 8:48 AM on September 29, 2002
'86 Samurai with mismatched body panels. Sometimes I don't even lock the doors.
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:10 AM on September 29, 2002
posted by Mars Saxman at 11:10 AM on September 29, 2002
i thought i had the completely unstealable car, a '84 toyota celica...until somebody stole it (probably to turn into a cheapo racecar), you'd be amazed at the pieces of shit that get stolen even if you do lock the doors.
anyway, what's the point in owning a car that does 140 mph if you never do 140 mph?
posted by NGnerd at 11:29 AM on September 29, 2002
anyway, what's the point in owning a car that does 140 mph if you never do 140 mph?
posted by NGnerd at 11:29 AM on September 29, 2002
"...what's the point in owning a car that does 140 mph if you never do 140 mph?"
The short answer is it's the same thing that causes people to buy 4X4s and never take them off the pavement.
Brain damage.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2002
The short answer is it's the same thing that causes people to buy 4X4s and never take them off the pavement.
Brain damage.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:09 PM on September 29, 2002
The thread over at Mustang Message board (where the tech posted) has blown up, as has the thread over at STVPerformance (where the unfortunate owner posted). This gets my vote as the COOLEST MeFi POSTING EVAR!!!!!1!
I'm thinking this might turn into another "All Your Base." How long before we see this on Memepool? Oops, it's ALREADY THERE...
-Sp00ky
posted by Mr_Spook at 12:36 PM on September 29, 2002
I'm thinking this might turn into another "All Your Base." How long before we see this on Memepool? Oops, it's ALREADY THERE...
-Sp00ky
posted by Mr_Spook at 12:36 PM on September 29, 2002
The short answer is it's the same thing that causes people to buy 4X4s and never take them off the pavement.
Brain damage.
I thought the answer to NGnerd's question had something to do with penile compensation, but I guess I could be wrong.
posted by PWA_BadBoy at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2002
Brain damage.
I thought the answer to NGnerd's question had something to do with penile compensation, but I guess I could be wrong.
posted by PWA_BadBoy at 12:39 PM on September 29, 2002
"...what's the point in owning a car that does 140 mph if you never do 140 mph?"
so the techs can do 140?
posted by heyimhowie at 12:53 PM on September 29, 2002
so the techs can do 140?
posted by heyimhowie at 12:53 PM on September 29, 2002
"...what's the point in owning a car that does 140 mph if you never do 140 mph?"
I once heard a definition of humility that was something along the lines of "having a great deal of power and refusing to use it."
posted by Dreama at 1:13 PM on September 29, 2002
I once heard a definition of humility that was something along the lines of "having a great deal of power and refusing to use it."
posted by Dreama at 1:13 PM on September 29, 2002
"I thought the answer to NGnerd's question had something to do with penile compensation, but I guess I could be wrong."
Considering the owner of the car which is the subject of this thread is female, you may be just slightly off base there.
Or not, depending on whether Freud was correct or just a whacked-out coke fiend.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:30 PM on September 29, 2002
Considering the owner of the car which is the subject of this thread is female, you may be just slightly off base there.
Or not, depending on whether Freud was correct or just a whacked-out coke fiend.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:30 PM on September 29, 2002
"I once heard a definition of humility that was something along the lines of "having a great deal of power and refusing to use it."
I've never met a Mustang owner who could spell humility, let alone define it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:32 PM on September 29, 2002
I've never met a Mustang owner who could spell humility, let alone define it.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:32 PM on September 29, 2002
"...what's the point in owning a car that does 140 mph if you never do 140 mph?"
"Brain damage... penile compensation... blah blah blah..."
Or maybe - just maybe - it's because the sort of car that can run to 140 is also the sort of car that can run to the highway speed limit in the blink of an eye, handle dicey onramps and merges effortlessly, pass quickly and safely, stop in an emergency (or swerve to avoid it) quicker than the soccer mom in the 3-ton SUV or the MeFi user in the '87 Metro. They also tend to be the sort of car that handles the mundane a-to-b act of driving with a graceful competence that turns a trip to 7-11 or the evening commute home into a brief period of ecstasy.
All of which does not even address the fact that you don't have to be F1 royalty to take your car out and race it as fast as you can.
posted by tirade at 1:35 PM on September 29, 2002
"Brain damage... penile compensation... blah blah blah..."
Or maybe - just maybe - it's because the sort of car that can run to 140 is also the sort of car that can run to the highway speed limit in the blink of an eye, handle dicey onramps and merges effortlessly, pass quickly and safely, stop in an emergency (or swerve to avoid it) quicker than the soccer mom in the 3-ton SUV or the MeFi user in the '87 Metro. They also tend to be the sort of car that handles the mundane a-to-b act of driving with a graceful competence that turns a trip to 7-11 or the evening commute home into a brief period of ecstasy.
All of which does not even address the fact that you don't have to be F1 royalty to take your car out and race it as fast as you can.
posted by tirade at 1:35 PM on September 29, 2002
"Blah, blah, blah, yakkety-shmakkety..."
Lighten up, Francis.
By the way, my Javelin and I scored a third-place finish in Solo II, E Street Prepared, so there exists the slight possibility I was joking about the brain damage.
Then again, maybe I wasn't.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:05 PM on September 29, 2002
Lighten up, Francis.
By the way, my Javelin and I scored a third-place finish in Solo II, E Street Prepared, so there exists the slight possibility I was joking about the brain damage.
Then again, maybe I wasn't.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 2:05 PM on September 29, 2002
I think it's rather amusing how all the car enthusiasts think that 140mph is so unbelievably fast.
I have a sportsbike and hang out at sportbikes.net. 140mph is nothing compared to what modern sportbikes can do.
As for this whole situation, as an owner I would be pissed as well, and I would definately try to get some free stuff out of the situation.
But come on, it's not like any harm to the car occured. And if it did, then why in the world would anyone buy this so called "sportscar" that can't even hit 140mph without stuff braking?
Witold
posted by Witold at 2:47 PM on September 29, 2002
I have a sportsbike and hang out at sportbikes.net. 140mph is nothing compared to what modern sportbikes can do.
As for this whole situation, as an owner I would be pissed as well, and I would definately try to get some free stuff out of the situation.
But come on, it's not like any harm to the car occured. And if it did, then why in the world would anyone buy this so called "sportscar" that can't even hit 140mph without stuff braking?
Witold
posted by Witold at 2:47 PM on September 29, 2002
I've never met a Mustang owner who could spell humility, let alone define it. -- mr_crash_davis
Now, now, Crash...I've owned a few Mustangs and I'm quite capable of spelling humility. Admittedly, I may not have much of it...but spell it...sure. ;)
As to cars that go 140...what tirade said. Also, as I've mentioned in other threads, I have raced my cars out on the track. I choose not to endanger other people by racing on freeways. By the same token, I sold the Mustangs because I was far too aggressive in them...where as I'm almost as fast, but not as aggressive in my Camaro...dunno why.
But even the camaro spends 95% of her time in the garage rather than on the street, because sports cars are not designed for pregnant ladies...and getting behind the wheel is a trick that would require equipment, friends and perhaps judicious applications of crisco...and nobody wants that. ;)
posted by dejah420 at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2002
Now, now, Crash...I've owned a few Mustangs and I'm quite capable of spelling humility. Admittedly, I may not have much of it...but spell it...sure. ;)
As to cars that go 140...what tirade said. Also, as I've mentioned in other threads, I have raced my cars out on the track. I choose not to endanger other people by racing on freeways. By the same token, I sold the Mustangs because I was far too aggressive in them...where as I'm almost as fast, but not as aggressive in my Camaro...dunno why.
But even the camaro spends 95% of her time in the garage rather than on the street, because sports cars are not designed for pregnant ladies...and getting behind the wheel is a trick that would require equipment, friends and perhaps judicious applications of crisco...and nobody wants that. ;)
posted by dejah420 at 2:52 PM on September 29, 2002
Thank you, dejah, for a great laugh. Best I've had in ages. Crisco. Oh my.
posted by Dreama at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2002
posted by Dreama at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2002
Wow, so many people missing the point... it almost seems like it is on purpose.
The point is not whether the car should be driven 140 or not, or why have it, or if something was broken. The point is that technicians who are paid to fix the car and not soil it were ragging the car out and using it as a toy. It is not their vehicle to do with as they please. Whether it can "take it" or not is completely besides the point.
Why have a car that does 140? It certainly is *NOT* to entertain the trade school help down at the dealership. If he wants to go 140 let him buy his own SVT with his wages.
Witold: 140 is not all that fast? Just because a sport bike can go faster does not make it "not that fast". Not many people own a 4 wheeled vehicle that can comfortably handle 140. NASCAR vehicles go 200, Formula 1 go 240. Does that mean your bike at 170 is "not that fast"? Everything's relative speedboy. 140 is fast on four wheels on public roads by any definition. Also, the woman did not report anything broken, so it handled the rough driving just fine, thank you. :-)
posted by Ynoxas at 5:23 PM on September 29, 2002
The point is not whether the car should be driven 140 or not, or why have it, or if something was broken. The point is that technicians who are paid to fix the car and not soil it were ragging the car out and using it as a toy. It is not their vehicle to do with as they please. Whether it can "take it" or not is completely besides the point.
Why have a car that does 140? It certainly is *NOT* to entertain the trade school help down at the dealership. If he wants to go 140 let him buy his own SVT with his wages.
Witold: 140 is not all that fast? Just because a sport bike can go faster does not make it "not that fast". Not many people own a 4 wheeled vehicle that can comfortably handle 140. NASCAR vehicles go 200, Formula 1 go 240. Does that mean your bike at 170 is "not that fast"? Everything's relative speedboy. 140 is fast on four wheels on public roads by any definition. Also, the woman did not report anything broken, so it handled the rough driving just fine, thank you. :-)
posted by Ynoxas at 5:23 PM on September 29, 2002
Also, an added point is that though nothing appears to have broken, this joyride probably wasn't very good for the car long-term. Cars, like nearly everything (speakers/subs for example, off the top of my head), usually deserve a nice little "break in" period for the engine. And as this was a brand spankin' new car, the engine probably wasn't very well broken in yet. The aggressive driving was definitely not good for it.
posted by swank6 at 5:51 PM on September 29, 2002
posted by swank6 at 5:51 PM on September 29, 2002
Not that long ago, we were discussing how a thief used an auto forum to steal a guy's performance car, then posted pictures of the car and identifiable parts ON THE SAME FORUM -- and then the owner used help from the forum to track him down and get proof for the police.
posted by dhartung at 9:05 PM on September 29, 2002
posted by dhartung at 9:05 PM on September 29, 2002
Engines usually do not need much run-in nowadays, as the tolerances of modern manufacturing equipment are very good and modern oils even better. Nonetheless, a pretty stupid act by the mechanic. I just can't quite decide whether he was stupid to take the car or stupid to brag about it publicly and in writing. It depends on whether I am being mature or thinking like I would if I had my hands on my dream car for a few minutes and no-one was watching.
Why anyone would lust so strongly after a pretend sports car I cannot fathom, but it takes all kinds etc.
dejah420 - thanks for the mental image of someone with a belly jammed full of arms and legs trying to squeeze in behind the wheel of a Camaro.
posted by dg at 9:15 PM on September 29, 2002
Why anyone would lust so strongly after a pretend sports car I cannot fathom, but it takes all kinds etc.
dejah420 - thanks for the mental image of someone with a belly jammed full of arms and legs trying to squeeze in behind the wheel of a Camaro.
posted by dg at 9:15 PM on September 29, 2002
If you have a nice car, do the GPS thing mentioned above. In another life I worked at a purveyor of fine european automobiles, and achieved my personal top speed (145 mph) on a quiet stretch of interstate in an as-then unsold car. We (or at least I) never abused cars in for service, but I'm sure the person who shelled out 60 grand for my previous plaything would not have been too pleased to know an 18-year-old punk had been driving it at almost 3 times the posted limit a week earlier.
(and of course if the abuse occurs before you get the car, I guess there isn't much you can do)
posted by jalexei at 11:22 AM on September 30, 2002
(and of course if the abuse occurs before you get the car, I guess there isn't much you can do)
posted by jalexei at 11:22 AM on September 30, 2002
And some people find the idea that the tech would joyride and then post about it online preposterous. Folks, witness exhibit A from jalexei there.
posted by kavasa at 11:57 AM on September 30, 2002
posted by kavasa at 11:57 AM on September 30, 2002
Well - I didn't: a. do it recently, b. tell people where, c. post a license plate or model description, d. disparage the owner, or d. brag to a community of enthusiasts for the particular vehicle I was driving, so I'm comfortable I rank at least slightly higher on the intelligence scale...
posted by jalexei at 2:29 PM on September 30, 2002
posted by jalexei at 2:29 PM on September 30, 2002
Though I'm still working on the whole "alphabet" thing...
posted by jalexei at 2:31 PM on September 30, 2002
posted by jalexei at 2:31 PM on September 30, 2002
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
cause: guy takes joyride, posts it
effect: owner reads it, gets pissed
hilarity!
posted by RobbieFal at 5:33 PM on September 28, 2002