World's Worst Most Divorced Dad
July 26, 2024 8:27 AM Subscribe
In an interview with noted right wing figure and transphobe Jordan Peterson, Elon Musk attacked his estranged transgender daughter Vivian Jenna Wilson, proceeding to deadname her while calling her "dead" because she transitioned, and saying he was "tricked" into signing off on her gender affirming care. In response, Wilson has given an interview with NBC News in which she details how Musk was both an abusive and absentee father while she was growing up, and how he lied about her interests growing up as well as his signing off on her care.
The interview with Wilson also calls out Walter Issacson for his disrespectful behavior towards Wilson in writing Musk's biography, including not actually working to get a hold of her to make sure his details were right, not using her proper name in his writing, and using third party sources to talk about her views.
The interview with Wilson also calls out Walter Issacson for his disrespectful behavior towards Wilson in writing Musk's biography, including not actually working to get a hold of her to make sure his details were right, not using her proper name in his writing, and using third party sources to talk about her views.
Imagine seriously using the phrase "woke mind virus" and being unaware that you have become a parody.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:37 AM on July 26 [54 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 8:37 AM on July 26 [54 favorites]
She also responded on, I think, Threads? I'm not on that or the Fediverse, so I don't have access to the original posts. They have been reposted on Reddit several times. Here's one.
posted by Spike Glee at 8:42 AM on July 26 [7 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 8:42 AM on July 26 [7 favorites]
Yes, Vivian posts on Threads and as much as I think she is rad... she's not rad enough for me to use Threads. :D
Here is the link to her on Threads-- you need to be signed in to Meta/Facebook/Instagram/Threads to see it.
posted by robotmachine at 8:44 AM on July 26 [4 favorites]
Here is the link to her on Threads-- you need to be signed in to Meta/Facebook/Instagram/Threads to see it.
posted by robotmachine at 8:44 AM on July 26 [4 favorites]
As a parent this guy represents the utterer and most reprehensible falls state possible. Complete and ruinous failure, I have nothing but disgust for him.
posted by Artw at 8:46 AM on July 26 [26 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:46 AM on July 26 [26 favorites]
I think this was extremely cool and brave of her and I have also seen a number of trans women pointing out that yes, this is incredibly cool and brave of her and also we can't just listen to and support trans women when they're talking about people we dislike, it's also important to listen and be respectful when they tell us things we don't want to hear.
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:50 AM on July 26 [37 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 8:50 AM on July 26 [37 favorites]
Also - you’ll note he’s trying to promote some kind of Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria bullshit with his comments about puberty blockers here - something that transphobes have been pushing hard despite it being a bullshit theory with no grounding and a big component of the Cass report which is driving UK policy. You’ll note that he complains about them not because they were prescribed hastily and inappropriately but because his daughter later transitioned - it they were a good and useful treatment. Kind of gives the lie to why these freaks are upset about them.
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on July 26 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:51 AM on July 26 [18 favorites]
The thing that is so unsettling about Musk is that he operates completely on the basis of "what would make me look cool to 15-19 year old boys on social media who admire edgelord posting, and how can I repudiate anything that does not meet the ideals of those boys". If he thinks it will make him look cool to teenage boys, he'll do it, even if it ruins his business, and if he thinks being divorced or having his ex date a trans woman makes him look weak to teenagers, he wants to annihilate everything associated with this, and he never, never gets to the understanding that being so reactive/off-the-handle does in fact make him look weak, petulant and spoiled. It's not like billionaire industrialists with ex-wives and estranged children are unusual.
Not that one enjoys the existence of Jeff Bezos or Peter Thiel, but at least you have some confidence that they aren't going to, like, detonate a backpack nuke somewhere purely because their ex got remarried or something.
posted by Frowner at 8:53 AM on July 26 [35 favorites]
Not that one enjoys the existence of Jeff Bezos or Peter Thiel, but at least you have some confidence that they aren't going to, like, detonate a backpack nuke somewhere purely because their ex got remarried or something.
posted by Frowner at 8:53 AM on July 26 [35 favorites]
So, hey. I fuckin' hate Elon, and his whole toxic vibe.
I also wish, as a divorced man, that we hadn't settled societally on emphasizing the level of "divorced"-ness he has as a proxy for how desperate, pathetic, and empty he is. You know?
posted by bluemilker at 8:56 AM on July 26 [74 favorites]
I also wish, as a divorced man, that we hadn't settled societally on emphasizing the level of "divorced"-ness he has as a proxy for how desperate, pathetic, and empty he is. You know?
posted by bluemilker at 8:56 AM on July 26 [74 favorites]
also we can't just listen to and support trans women when they're talking about people we dislike, it's also important to listen and be respectful when they tell us things we don't want to hear.
Notable how rare it is to hear trans voices in mainstream media on their own lives - this undoubtedly got through because the Elon angle made it spicy, and given what a shit he is I guess I’m glad of that, but there should be way more trans people getting a platform especially given the medias fascination with TERF talking points that basically evaporate as soon as anyone real turns up.
posted by Artw at 8:56 AM on July 26 [29 favorites]
Notable how rare it is to hear trans voices in mainstream media on their own lives - this undoubtedly got through because the Elon angle made it spicy, and given what a shit he is I guess I’m glad of that, but there should be way more trans people getting a platform especially given the medias fascination with TERF talking points that basically evaporate as soon as anyone real turns up.
posted by Artw at 8:56 AM on July 26 [29 favorites]
So when Musk blamed his oughta-be private family problems on Woke, Peterson told him to clean his own room himself, right?
posted by Western Infidels at 9:01 AM on July 26 [23 favorites]
posted by Western Infidels at 9:01 AM on July 26 [23 favorites]
what would make me look cool to 15-19 year old boys
IMO, this is because he, personally, is trapped in that stage. He never got past it himself -- he doesn't know how, and now it seems too late. All he can do is try to convince himself (and thus the world, obvs) of his own agency and worth by posturing.
That his daughter is already stronger than him is profoundly problematic for his internal worldview.
posted by aramaic at 9:02 AM on July 26 [20 favorites]
IMO, this is because he, personally, is trapped in that stage. He never got past it himself -- he doesn't know how, and now it seems too late. All he can do is try to convince himself (and thus the world, obvs) of his own agency and worth by posturing.
That his daughter is already stronger than him is profoundly problematic for his internal worldview.
posted by aramaic at 9:02 AM on July 26 [20 favorites]
Good for Vivian on being so calm and clear after being thrust involuntarily into the media shark tank. And for judo-flipping the topic from TERF talking points to “this asshole is a terrible father”.
I wish Musk would hurry up and reach the Mike Lindell stage of ruin. At some point investors will kick him out of his companies, and it may be closer than we think if Tesla continues its precipitous drop in quarter over quarter sales.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:06 AM on July 26 [26 favorites]
I wish Musk would hurry up and reach the Mike Lindell stage of ruin. At some point investors will kick him out of his companies, and it may be closer than we think if Tesla continues its precipitous drop in quarter over quarter sales.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 9:06 AM on July 26 [26 favorites]
Go Vivian. She kicks ass.
(Though I'm still confused on why anyone was using "Jenna." I just read "Extremely Hardcore" and Zoe Schiffer refers to her as Jenna there too.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:12 AM on July 26
(Though I'm still confused on why anyone was using "Jenna." I just read "Extremely Hardcore" and Zoe Schiffer refers to her as Jenna there too.)
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:12 AM on July 26
At some point investors will kick him out of his companies, and it may be closer than we think if Tesla continues its precipitous drop in quarter over quarter sales.
That’s regrettably what will keep him in his position for far too long. Absent the genius leader mythos, Tesla is by the numbers just a failing car company with QA problems that should have pivoted to charger infra and batteries two years ago. The longer he’s there the closer it gets to being an obvious Ponzi scheme for its investors, but if he leaves that’s visibly all it is today, so….
posted by mhoye at 9:15 AM on July 26 [13 favorites]
That’s regrettably what will keep him in his position for far too long. Absent the genius leader mythos, Tesla is by the numbers just a failing car company with QA problems that should have pivoted to charger infra and batteries two years ago. The longer he’s there the closer it gets to being an obvious Ponzi scheme for its investors, but if he leaves that’s visibly all it is today, so….
posted by mhoye at 9:15 AM on July 26 [13 favorites]
The Maintenance Phase podcast has put more effort than it deserves documenting the origins of and debunking supposed evidence for so-called Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.
posted by straight at 9:17 AM on July 26 [17 favorites]
posted by straight at 9:17 AM on July 26 [17 favorites]
the funny thing about "woke mind virus" is that the opposite is pretty much being a zombie. your mind is asleep.
posted by supermedusa at 9:18 AM on July 26 [4 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 9:18 AM on July 26 [4 favorites]
Is not paramount in Musks view just to have kids? Damn the caring of them just keep spreading my genes/dna.
posted by robbyrobs at 9:34 AM on July 26
posted by robbyrobs at 9:34 AM on July 26
Golly jeepers I loathe that guy.
posted by whatevernot at 9:35 AM on July 26 [20 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 9:35 AM on July 26 [20 favorites]
Is not paramount in Musks view just to have kids? Damn the caring of them just keep spreading my genes/dna.
Kids and only male kids.
posted by Artw at 9:36 AM on July 26 [4 favorites]
Kids and only male kids.
posted by Artw at 9:36 AM on July 26 [4 favorites]
Shitty dude we need to remove from the public eye along with his stolen wealth.
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:39 AM on July 26 [3 favorites]
posted by GoblinHoney at 9:39 AM on July 26 [3 favorites]
(Though I'm still confused on why anyone was using "Jenna." I just read "Extremely Hardcore" and Zoe Schiffer refers to her as Jenna there too.)
Her full name is Vivian Jenna Wilson.
Also, a commenter in one of the Reddit posts about this point out that with Vivian saying her twin brother went through a Hamilton phase, Musk describing her as obsessed with musicals is definitely him not being able to tell his own children apart.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:40 AM on July 26 [49 favorites]
Her full name is Vivian Jenna Wilson.
Also, a commenter in one of the Reddit posts about this point out that with Vivian saying her twin brother went through a Hamilton phase, Musk describing her as obsessed with musicals is definitely him not being able to tell his own children apart.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:40 AM on July 26 [49 favorites]
my dad is 72 years old. he wasn't a great father. he wasn't even a good father. but when i came out as trans, the first thing he did was listen to me explain why. the next thing he did was start reading. he still deadnames and misgenders me, but immediately corrects himself, and is genuinely trying
he's not perfect by any means. but he fundamentally believes and accepts my truth, underneath his stumbles, and that
... well, if you're a parent and your kid comes out as trans, this honestly goes a super long way. i cannot express how much it means to me
musk is rich beyond imagination and will never know that kind of love. may viv get all the happiness she could ever wish for
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 9:41 AM on July 26 [110 favorites]
he's not perfect by any means. but he fundamentally believes and accepts my truth, underneath his stumbles, and that
... well, if you're a parent and your kid comes out as trans, this honestly goes a super long way. i cannot express how much it means to me
musk is rich beyond imagination and will never know that kind of love. may viv get all the happiness she could ever wish for
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 9:41 AM on July 26 [110 favorites]
> (Though I'm still confused on why anyone was using "Jenna." I just read "Extremely Hardcore" and Zoe Schiffer refers to her as Jenna there too.)
Jenna is her middle name, right? Personally I go by my middle name with most people, and I know a couple of people who go by either their first or middle name depending on the friend circle. I don't know if that's what is happening here, but it's a possibility.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 9:43 AM on July 26
Jenna is her middle name, right? Personally I go by my middle name with most people, and I know a couple of people who go by either their first or middle name depending on the friend circle. I don't know if that's what is happening here, but it's a possibility.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 9:43 AM on July 26
She’s made not wanting any part of that clear since 2022.
Elon Musk's transgender daughter has applied to legally change her name and gender, saying she no longer wants to "be related to my biological father in any way, shape or form".
posted by Artw at 9:48 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
Elon Musk's transgender daughter has applied to legally change her name and gender, saying she no longer wants to "be related to my biological father in any way, shape or form".
posted by Artw at 9:48 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
I also wish, as a divorced man, that we hadn't settled societally on emphasizing the level of "divorced"-ness he has as a proxy for how desperate, pathetic, and empty he is. You know?
I think it is important to distinguish between men who get divorced (a thing that happens an awful lot) and go on to live their normal lives (a thing that happens an awful lot) and men who get divorced and live the rest of their lives as a resentment filled and motivated Divorced Man (a thing that sometimes happen and is spectacularly glaringly obviously bad to everyone but themselves).
posted by srboisvert at 9:52 AM on July 26 [23 favorites]
I think it is important to distinguish between men who get divorced (a thing that happens an awful lot) and go on to live their normal lives (a thing that happens an awful lot) and men who get divorced and live the rest of their lives as a resentment filled and motivated Divorced Man (a thing that sometimes happen and is spectacularly glaringly obviously bad to everyone but themselves).
posted by srboisvert at 9:52 AM on July 26 [23 favorites]
WRT: divorced
I think the issue isn't that divorced is being held up here as inherently bad, but that when someone is divorced so often it isn't unfair to assume it means they're either not very good partners or they have really bad taste in partners.
Like, if you say you met one asshole it probably means you met an asshole. But if you say everyone you meet is an asshole then it means you're the asshole.
Being divorced once or twice? Meh, shit happens. Being divorcced dozens of times? You're the problem.
posted by sotonohito at 9:52 AM on July 26 [17 favorites]
I think the issue isn't that divorced is being held up here as inherently bad, but that when someone is divorced so often it isn't unfair to assume it means they're either not very good partners or they have really bad taste in partners.
Like, if you say you met one asshole it probably means you met an asshole. But if you say everyone you meet is an asshole then it means you're the asshole.
Being divorced once or twice? Meh, shit happens. Being divorcced dozens of times? You're the problem.
posted by sotonohito at 9:52 AM on July 26 [17 favorites]
It sounds like Vivian isn't going by her middle name, is why I asked. Unless she went by Jenna first at some point, it seems odd.
I've come to the conclusion that the only way we can solve the "Elon wants attention" and "Trump wants attention" problems is to stick them in a Total Perspective Vortex designed just for them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:53 AM on July 26 [5 favorites]
I've come to the conclusion that the only way we can solve the "Elon wants attention" and "Trump wants attention" problems is to stick them in a Total Perspective Vortex designed just for them.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:53 AM on July 26 [5 favorites]
she is a good apple who's fallen very far from the tree. I wish her well. she seems like a strong, funny, solid young person.
posted by supermedusa at 10:27 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 10:27 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
I think the issue isn't that divorced is being held up here as inherently bad, but that when someone is divorced so often it isn't unfair to assume it means they're either not very good partners or they have really bad taste in partners.
I think another issue is that "divorced" has become slangy shorthand online for a form of toxic masculine bitterness directed against women (including trans women in this case of Elon's daughter). A man who breaks up with his spouse is divorced, but not all divorced men are "divorced."
posted by jonp72 at 10:28 AM on July 26 [14 favorites]
I think another issue is that "divorced" has become slangy shorthand online for a form of toxic masculine bitterness directed against women (including trans women in this case of Elon's daughter). A man who breaks up with his spouse is divorced, but not all divorced men are "divorced."
posted by jonp72 at 10:28 AM on July 26 [14 favorites]
Yeah she seems to be doing great. Very happy for her.
Here’s hoping all his kids escape so well.
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
Here’s hoping all his kids escape so well.
posted by Artw at 10:28 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
what would make me look cool to 15-19 year old boys on social media
Keep in mind, Musk doesn't know what teenage boys today like. He's dipping into his own teenage years, which is why the Cybertruck looks like a roided out DeLorean: he was an 80s teen.
Same with Zuckerberg just flat out copying Metaverse (didn't even change the name) from Snow Crash, published in 1992.
They aren't tech geniuses, they just had rich parents and got away with stealing ideas and work from other people.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:29 AM on July 26 [45 favorites]
Keep in mind, Musk doesn't know what teenage boys today like. He's dipping into his own teenage years, which is why the Cybertruck looks like a roided out DeLorean: he was an 80s teen.
Same with Zuckerberg just flat out copying Metaverse (didn't even change the name) from Snow Crash, published in 1992.
They aren't tech geniuses, they just had rich parents and got away with stealing ideas and work from other people.
posted by AlSweigart at 10:29 AM on July 26 [45 favorites]
Let’s be blunt: he’s trying to appeal to a bunch of Nazis on Twitter. That is his entire life now: sucking up to Nazis and trying to impress Nazis by having other people suck up to him. If it doesn’t move the dial with catturd2 then it’s not interesting to him.
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on July 26 [26 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:31 AM on July 26 [26 favorites]
think another issue is that "divorced" has become slangy shorthand online for a form of toxic masculine bitterness directed against women
There is absolutely a divorced-dude-to-toxic-man pipeline right now.
posted by corb at 10:35 AM on July 26 [27 favorites]
There is absolutely a divorced-dude-to-toxic-man pipeline right now.
posted by corb at 10:35 AM on July 26 [27 favorites]
(cw: death of a child)
This morning I learned that a friend’s daughter drowned last week. She was nine and was by all accounts a delight. I have kids around the same age and this news cast me into a deep sorrow.
So as someone who spent time just now contemplating what it might be like to have an actually dead child, Musk’s remarks are absolutely, unthinkably cruel and stupid and hateful.
posted by gauche at 10:36 AM on July 26 [61 favorites]
This morning I learned that a friend’s daughter drowned last week. She was nine and was by all accounts a delight. I have kids around the same age and this news cast me into a deep sorrow.
So as someone who spent time just now contemplating what it might be like to have an actually dead child, Musk’s remarks are absolutely, unthinkably cruel and stupid and hateful.
posted by gauche at 10:36 AM on July 26 [61 favorites]
I would argue that the toxicity precedes the divorce; this is an important distinction in several different respects.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:56 AM on July 26 [17 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:56 AM on July 26 [17 favorites]
I would argue that the toxicity precedes the divorce; this is an important distinction in several different respects.
Probably even causes it, in these cases.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 10:58 AM on July 26 [3 favorites]
Probably even causes it, in these cases.
posted by UltraMorgnus at 10:58 AM on July 26 [3 favorites]
So I'm guessing she out of the will?
> She’s made not wanting any part of that clear since 2022.
But clearly she was not old enough to know her own mind or make her own decisions about her future, so he'll still give her the same funds as I'm sure he's already set aside in a legally protected manner for all of his kids. (Seeing her decision to distance herself from him as the temporary product of a still-developing brain, and nonetheless still feeling the sadness and pain of having "lost" her, he will make a constant, unambiguous effort to express to her that he loves and misses her, as she is, and that she's welcome back, as she is, at any time. Maybe he'll even use the wide reach of his platforms to do that.)
posted by trig at 10:58 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
> She’s made not wanting any part of that clear since 2022.
But clearly she was not old enough to know her own mind or make her own decisions about her future, so he'll still give her the same funds as I'm sure he's already set aside in a legally protected manner for all of his kids. (Seeing her decision to distance herself from him as the temporary product of a still-developing brain, and nonetheless still feeling the sadness and pain of having "lost" her, he will make a constant, unambiguous effort to express to her that he loves and misses her, as she is, and that she's welcome back, as she is, at any time. Maybe he'll even use the wide reach of his platforms to do that.)
posted by trig at 10:58 AM on July 26 [6 favorites]
the funny thing about "woke mind virus" -- to me the funny thing about that phrase is that it is the mind virus.
divorced -- in the UK, where we have a party whose name in a short form is Conservative, we have the concept of being "small 'c' conservative", meaning simply more inclined to oppose change. With that in mind maybe we could refer to "divorcé[e]s who deal" with a small 'd' and reserve the big D for Musk, Linehan, and blokes who shin up buildings dressed as Spiderman.
Aternatively: I'm originally from Yorkshire and another concept we have is the "professional Yorkshireman" -- someone whose Yorkshireness precedes them into a room (not to single out Yorkshire -- other UK regions have their own professionals). So, maybe "professional divorcé[e]" would be another form of words.
Not to diminish the pain of divorce. I can't even begin to imagine it, but there do seem to be people who obviously don't lack resources and recourses, yet still insist on leaning into the pain, becoming it.
posted by BCMagee at 11:02 AM on July 26 [5 favorites]
divorced -- in the UK, where we have a party whose name in a short form is Conservative, we have the concept of being "small 'c' conservative", meaning simply more inclined to oppose change. With that in mind maybe we could refer to "divorcé[e]s who deal" with a small 'd' and reserve the big D for Musk, Linehan, and blokes who shin up buildings dressed as Spiderman.
Aternatively: I'm originally from Yorkshire and another concept we have is the "professional Yorkshireman" -- someone whose Yorkshireness precedes them into a room (not to single out Yorkshire -- other UK regions have their own professionals). So, maybe "professional divorcé[e]" would be another form of words.
Not to diminish the pain of divorce. I can't even begin to imagine it, but there do seem to be people who obviously don't lack resources and recourses, yet still insist on leaning into the pain, becoming it.
posted by BCMagee at 11:02 AM on July 26 [5 favorites]
Heads up that I'm going to discuss the death of a child below:
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posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:10 AM on July 26 [33 favorites]
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So as someone who spent time just now contemplating what it might be like to have an actually dead child,What's absolutely wild is that Elon Musk's first child died of SIDS. He has experienced the actual death of a child. I honestly think that he may think of his kids as tools in his weird eugenics project, rather than actual human beings whom he loves like a normal person loves their kids.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:10 AM on July 26 [33 favorites]
gauche I'm so sorry for your friend, and for you. even at a remove, the death of a child is an awful awful thing. I don't have children but I cannot imagine what could move me to say "they are dead to me" or disown or reject them. he's a truly terrible person.
posted by supermedusa at 11:17 AM on July 26 [8 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 11:17 AM on July 26 [8 favorites]
What's absolutely wild is that Elon Musk's first child died of SIDS. He has experienced the actual death of a child.
He told manipulative lies about that as well.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on July 26 [12 favorites]
He told manipulative lies about that as well.
posted by Artw at 11:23 AM on July 26 [12 favorites]
I’ve loathed Musk’s public persona and politics for many years, but knew very little about his personal life other than that he grew up sheltered nerd from South Africa, dated Grimes and loved the Hitchhiker’s Trilogy, seemingly without understanding that it’s largely a satire about people exactly like him.
This… does a lot to explain why his assholery seems so puerile, unhinged and compulsive, why the hate and rage seem so fierce and personal. Wow. Words fail.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:01 PM on July 26 [6 favorites]
This… does a lot to explain why his assholery seems so puerile, unhinged and compulsive, why the hate and rage seem so fierce and personal. Wow. Words fail.
posted by ducky l'orange at 12:01 PM on July 26 [6 favorites]
I think another issue is that "divorced" has become slangy shorthand online for a form of toxic masculine bitterness directed against women (including trans women in this case of Elon's daughter). A man who breaks up with his spouse is divorced, but not all divorced men are "divorced."
If I’ve read correctly, the commenter was acknowledging this but asking us to avoid this particular language use here on Metafilter?
In my experience, the hypothesis that the toxicity predates the divorce has been more accurate. Also happens (maybe even more so than with guys who manage to convince a woman to marry them in the first place?) with guys who just have girlfriend breakups, where they wrap that into a narrative that they were building already anyway of themselves as supposedly oppressed. Nomenclature for these guys that includes both the divorcees and the ones that never got far enough in a relationship to get married would be handy - like, the Elon phenomenon is not appreciably different from the end of the incel spectrum that includes men who have actually been on dates with women. Aggrieved straight (usually white) men who are too entitled to accept their role in any of their relationship difficulties is the full description, but is a bit too long and doesn’t roll off the tongue easily, of course.
posted by eviemath at 12:02 PM on July 26 [6 favorites]
If I’ve read correctly, the commenter was acknowledging this but asking us to avoid this particular language use here on Metafilter?
In my experience, the hypothesis that the toxicity predates the divorce has been more accurate. Also happens (maybe even more so than with guys who manage to convince a woman to marry them in the first place?) with guys who just have girlfriend breakups, where they wrap that into a narrative that they were building already anyway of themselves as supposedly oppressed. Nomenclature for these guys that includes both the divorcees and the ones that never got far enough in a relationship to get married would be handy - like, the Elon phenomenon is not appreciably different from the end of the incel spectrum that includes men who have actually been on dates with women. Aggrieved straight (usually white) men who are too entitled to accept their role in any of their relationship difficulties is the full description, but is a bit too long and doesn’t roll off the tongue easily, of course.
posted by eviemath at 12:02 PM on July 26 [6 favorites]
Word has it that this gentleman manufactures a large and ungainly iPad, to which he attaches wheels, motors, batteries, and steel panels with large and irregular gaps between them.
On a good day, the iPad/wheel combo moves from A to B without stopping or breaking down. Yet it is endlessly and frustratingly difficult to navigate, with the driver furiously tapping, scrolling and swiping on the screen while attempting to keep eyes on the road.
One wonders why, giving his transphobic and repulsive behavior, consumers of vehicles don't take their business to competitors, who replace the iPad in their EVs with a dashboard studded with driver-friendly buttons, switches and dials.
posted by Gordion Knott at 12:20 PM on July 26 [5 favorites]
On a good day, the iPad/wheel combo moves from A to B without stopping or breaking down. Yet it is endlessly and frustratingly difficult to navigate, with the driver furiously tapping, scrolling and swiping on the screen while attempting to keep eyes on the road.
One wonders why, giving his transphobic and repulsive behavior, consumers of vehicles don't take their business to competitors, who replace the iPad in their EVs with a dashboard studded with driver-friendly buttons, switches and dials.
posted by Gordion Knott at 12:20 PM on July 26 [5 favorites]
I think “ Aggrieved straight (usually white) men who are too entitled to accept their role in any of their relationship difficulties” rolls of the tongue pretty well.
Elon himself is on the spectrum and although it’s not an excuse for being a garbage human, it can explain his inability to get along with his kids and partners. A colleague of mine who is a big Tesla fan, and also an autism advocate has expressed disappointment that Elon has surrounded himself with a right wing echo chamber and thinks he will never be able to pull himself out of it/doesn’t realize how terrible he sounds to most reason people.
On the car side of things Teslas actually represent a really good match of capability for the price. The touchscreen takes them getting used to and ongoing service/support from Tesla can be questionable, but the company should get some credit for making the best electric cars and the charging network to back them up.
However, given his vocal support for the worst people in the world, I definitely can’t recommend a Tesla product to anyone I know. And of course, this ignores the cyber truck, which is a pure manifestation of Elon‘s poor impulse control. My preteen son does think this cyber truck is cool, but for me it’s a handy identifier if you are a terrible dude.
posted by CostcoCultist at 12:47 PM on July 26 [1 favorite]
Elon himself is on the spectrum and although it’s not an excuse for being a garbage human, it can explain his inability to get along with his kids and partners. A colleague of mine who is a big Tesla fan, and also an autism advocate has expressed disappointment that Elon has surrounded himself with a right wing echo chamber and thinks he will never be able to pull himself out of it/doesn’t realize how terrible he sounds to most reason people.
On the car side of things Teslas actually represent a really good match of capability for the price. The touchscreen takes them getting used to and ongoing service/support from Tesla can be questionable, but the company should get some credit for making the best electric cars and the charging network to back them up.
However, given his vocal support for the worst people in the world, I definitely can’t recommend a Tesla product to anyone I know. And of course, this ignores the cyber truck, which is a pure manifestation of Elon‘s poor impulse control. My preteen son does think this cyber truck is cool, but for me it’s a handy identifier if you are a terrible dude.
posted by CostcoCultist at 12:47 PM on July 26 [1 favorite]
My main impressions of Tesla cars is from ride shares and honestly even making a door handle that isn’t weird and bad seems beyond them.
posted by Artw at 12:53 PM on July 26 [18 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:53 PM on July 26 [18 favorites]
Elon phenomenon is not appreciably different from the end of the incel spectrum that includes men who have actually been on dates with women
i propose born-again incel
posted by solotoro at 1:00 PM on July 26 [9 favorites]
i propose born-again incel
posted by solotoro at 1:00 PM on July 26 [9 favorites]
...born-againcels was right there, apologies to everyone for missing it
posted by solotoro at 1:19 PM on July 26 [19 favorites]
posted by solotoro at 1:19 PM on July 26 [19 favorites]
Elon himself is on the spectrum.
Musk is only one among many who have "self-diagnosed" with autism, for reasons best known to themselves. There are many ways of labelling developmental or acquired derangements in social information processing/abilities. Beginning in childhood, some people come to a realisation of a distinct differences or gap in their experience of empathic response to others versus what they may inculcate as normative. Some are able to adopt different masking or adaptive strategies to compensate. Converging lines of research have shown, however, that not all social interaction difficulties are created equally.
posted by meehawl at 1:24 PM on July 26 [1 favorite]
Musk is only one among many who have "self-diagnosed" with autism, for reasons best known to themselves. There are many ways of labelling developmental or acquired derangements in social information processing/abilities. Beginning in childhood, some people come to a realisation of a distinct differences or gap in their experience of empathic response to others versus what they may inculcate as normative. Some are able to adopt different masking or adaptive strategies to compensate. Converging lines of research have shown, however, that not all social interaction difficulties are created equally.
posted by meehawl at 1:24 PM on July 26 [1 favorite]
He may or may not be on the spectrum. He is for sure an asshole. He is almost certainly using his claim to be on the spectrum as an excuse to be an asshole, which is basically just being an asshole twice.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on July 26 [34 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on July 26 [34 favorites]
On the spectrum or so filthy rich that you have no concept of reality along with parents that are selfish assholes that don't teach you how to be a good human being? I guess that's a type of spectrum.
I think the issue isn't that divorced is being held up here as inherently bad, but that when someone is divorced so often it isn't unfair to assume it means they're either not very good partners or they have really bad taste in partners.
I first encountered serial monogamy in a social sci course and have read about it in various sci-fi books since then. It sounds quite nice*. People grow and change, and it's damn hard to be all things to one person all your life. I think there is a small, vanishingly small amount of people that could be considered to practice serial monogamy successfully. It takes an amazing amount of maturity to do this, and IMO, the average woman, and most men, can't handle it. So, you get nasty divorces and people using their kids (fGs!) as pawns against each other in a hateful game of 'gotcha'.
Mostly what I see is a quite a few people being sour on their first marriage, many many of them women with kids that had to deal with a taking care of man-baby who later decides he doesn't want to be a father. Oh, yeah, there's women who are AH, too, but mostly men. A significantly large number of men vilify their ex-wives, and often go after their kids, too because they 'disappoint' them after they grow up. If nothing else, a sad number of men are just selfish and ignorant. One of my granddaughters has gone to NC with her sperm donor, the other two keep him at arm's length.
Musk is a poster boy for this type of man.
*I admire (and envy) people who can do this. I wasn't one of them when I was younger. I vaguely wish my ex of long, long ago well, but am mainly indifferent. However, I know I didn't do right by him in that marriage--neither of us were ready for it, and certainly for kids. On behalf of his kids, I'm sad and angry, because he just left and never paid any child support. On the other hand, it made everything so much easier, because they were so young they never knew him as a father, and they were adopted very young by their dad. They've never met him.
It would have probably been easier on Vivian if Musk would have just FO, instead of being such an ass.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:34 PM on July 26 [2 favorites]
I think the issue isn't that divorced is being held up here as inherently bad, but that when someone is divorced so often it isn't unfair to assume it means they're either not very good partners or they have really bad taste in partners.
I first encountered serial monogamy in a social sci course and have read about it in various sci-fi books since then. It sounds quite nice*. People grow and change, and it's damn hard to be all things to one person all your life. I think there is a small, vanishingly small amount of people that could be considered to practice serial monogamy successfully. It takes an amazing amount of maturity to do this, and IMO, the average woman, and most men, can't handle it. So, you get nasty divorces and people using their kids (fGs!) as pawns against each other in a hateful game of 'gotcha'.
Mostly what I see is a quite a few people being sour on their first marriage, many many of them women with kids that had to deal with a taking care of man-baby who later decides he doesn't want to be a father. Oh, yeah, there's women who are AH, too, but mostly men. A significantly large number of men vilify their ex-wives, and often go after their kids, too because they 'disappoint' them after they grow up. If nothing else, a sad number of men are just selfish and ignorant. One of my granddaughters has gone to NC with her sperm donor, the other two keep him at arm's length.
Musk is a poster boy for this type of man.
*I admire (and envy) people who can do this. I wasn't one of them when I was younger. I vaguely wish my ex of long, long ago well, but am mainly indifferent. However, I know I didn't do right by him in that marriage--neither of us were ready for it, and certainly for kids. On behalf of his kids, I'm sad and angry, because he just left and never paid any child support. On the other hand, it made everything so much easier, because they were so young they never knew him as a father, and they were adopted very young by their dad. They've never met him.
It would have probably been easier on Vivian if Musk would have just FO, instead of being such an ass.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:34 PM on July 26 [2 favorites]
Elon Musk, fuck off.
posted by bluesky43 at 1:43 PM on July 26 [7 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 1:43 PM on July 26 [7 favorites]
Musk is only one among many who have "self-diagnosed" with autism, for reasons best known to themselves
Here's a very informative and detailed previously on autistic self-diagnosis, from just 18 months ago. Melon Husk is an utter shit, but it's still possible to criticise him, and even what he's said about being autistic, without taking a swing at fellow mefites.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:21 PM on July 26 [13 favorites]
Here's a very informative and detailed previously on autistic self-diagnosis, from just 18 months ago. Melon Husk is an utter shit, but it's still possible to criticise him, and even what he's said about being autistic, without taking a swing at fellow mefites.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 2:21 PM on July 26 [13 favorites]
many who have "self-diagnosed" with autism, for reasons best known to themselves.
Whoa whoa whoa. Whatever your thoughts on Musk, many autistics are self-diagnosed. The autistic community by and large agrees that autistic self-diagnosis is valid.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:49 PM on July 26 [8 favorites]
Whoa whoa whoa. Whatever your thoughts on Musk, many autistics are self-diagnosed. The autistic community by and large agrees that autistic self-diagnosis is valid.
posted by splitpeasoup at 2:49 PM on July 26 [8 favorites]
You know, for as much as MeFites love to complain about derails, like 2/3 of this thread is talking about Teslas and now autistic people and self-diagnosis rather than, you know, the extremely brave young woman whom the post is about.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:05 PM on July 26 [38 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:05 PM on July 26 [38 favorites]
On-topic: I've been seeing a number of young trans people who are very excited about her dragging Elon for filth; it seems to be giving them hope for their lives and courage to stand up to (or remove themselves from) their own unaccepting families, and that's goddamn amazing. She is, as they say, braver than the troops.
(I really hope she's doing okay; i imagine that she's getting a lot of really unpleasant shit and threats from Elon fans, who are not, as a rule, very well-hinged people.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on July 26 [11 favorites]
(I really hope she's doing okay; i imagine that she's getting a lot of really unpleasant shit and threats from Elon fans, who are not, as a rule, very well-hinged people.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on July 26 [11 favorites]
adrienneleigh, I have no idea why people brought up autism in the first place, and then self-diagnosis in the second. But once it's brought up, with a great deal of ignorant and ableist misinformation, it kinda forces other people to correct the misinformation. And I agree with you that this brave young woman should be the center, not the ableist armchair comments, but here we are.
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:42 PM on July 26 [7 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 3:42 PM on July 26 [7 favorites]
Ah, I knew the name was familiar. Vivian's mother Justine wrote a scathing article about how awful Musk is back in 2010.
posted by fiercekitten at 4:42 PM on July 26 [5 favorites]
posted by fiercekitten at 4:42 PM on July 26 [5 favorites]
The wonderful thing is that Ms. Wilson has dwarfed her father in not only the ways that decent people value but in the only thing musk's shriveled heart truly craves: She is actually funny on the internet.
posted by stet at 4:57 PM on July 26 [7 favorites]
posted by stet at 4:57 PM on July 26 [7 favorites]
Seconding the rec for the last three episodes of Maintenance Phase.
Some links shamelessly harvested from show notes:
'Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria' Is Biased Junk Science
Opinion: England's Anti-Trans Cass Review Is Politics Disguised As Science
posted by Artw at 5:54 PM on July 26 [2 favorites]
Some links shamelessly harvested from show notes:
'Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria' Is Biased Junk Science
Opinion: England's Anti-Trans Cass Review Is Politics Disguised As Science
posted by Artw at 5:54 PM on July 26 [2 favorites]
Elon Musk, fuck off.
posted by bluesky43
Bravo. The song is just stuck in my head now. Thank you!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:57 PM on July 26 [2 favorites]
posted by bluesky43
Bravo. The song is just stuck in my head now. Thank you!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:57 PM on July 26 [2 favorites]
To address Elon Musk's autism, which is not a derail as it's central to his relationship with his daughter.
As far as I know, we don't know wether or not Elon Musk is autistic. He has not publically identified himself as such. The most evidence we have is that he made a joke about "being on the spectrum" during a interview when he was high. Which might mean he is a self realised autistic person, or might not.
More compelling evidence is that he has never corrected anyone who calls him autistic, and he seems like the kind of person who would do that.
Be aware that the stereotype of autistic people not having empathy is flawed and out of touch with reality. Some of us experience empathy differently from neurotypical people - but the "autistic people lack empathy" is a stereotype that, among other things, prevent many autistic people from realising that they are autistic (because they do experience empathy).
Repeating this stereotype does very real harm. Please don't do it.
Don't want to derail too much about that topic, but if you're interested, read up about affective vs cognitive empathy, as well as hyper empathy and autism.
Also consider why you might choose to use "on the spectrum" rather than saying "autistic". There might be a perfectly valid reason, the term itself is not necessarily problematic, but some people use it as a euphemism as though "autistic" is a dirty word.
posted by Zumbador at 8:46 PM on July 26 [5 favorites]
As far as I know, we don't know wether or not Elon Musk is autistic. He has not publically identified himself as such. The most evidence we have is that he made a joke about "being on the spectrum" during a interview when he was high. Which might mean he is a self realised autistic person, or might not.
More compelling evidence is that he has never corrected anyone who calls him autistic, and he seems like the kind of person who would do that.
Be aware that the stereotype of autistic people not having empathy is flawed and out of touch with reality. Some of us experience empathy differently from neurotypical people - but the "autistic people lack empathy" is a stereotype that, among other things, prevent many autistic people from realising that they are autistic (because they do experience empathy).
Repeating this stereotype does very real harm. Please don't do it.
Don't want to derail too much about that topic, but if you're interested, read up about affective vs cognitive empathy, as well as hyper empathy and autism.
Also consider why you might choose to use "on the spectrum" rather than saying "autistic". There might be a perfectly valid reason, the term itself is not necessarily problematic, but some people use it as a euphemism as though "autistic" is a dirty word.
posted by Zumbador at 8:46 PM on July 26 [5 favorites]
Elon Musk's brain is pickled in 4chan culture, which uses "autism" and "on the spectrum" as casual synonyms for lack of social skills. Which... sure, might be autism, but is also a common side-effect of reading Nazi message boards all day and never interacting with normal people.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:36 PM on July 26 [3 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 10:36 PM on July 26 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Tesla / Cybertruck derail deleted. Also, actually, please do not use this space to delve into autism vs "on the spectrum," (or a general discussion of autism) which is a fine discussion to have — in a post / thread about that, but not here. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:32 PM on July 26 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:32 PM on July 26 [1 favorite]
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posted by chavenet at 8:33 AM on July 26 [19 favorites]