Chicago moves toward reparations:
October 3, 2002 11:32 AM Subscribe
Chicago moves toward reparations: When vying for city contracts, companies must search their records and disclose whether they've profited from slavery.
I wonder how many of the alderman that voted for this drive German or Japanese cars...that is, support companies that benefitted from much more recent slave labor.
posted by goethean at 11:41 AM on October 3, 2002
posted by goethean at 11:41 AM on October 3, 2002
I agree that it is an empty gesture.
The Chicago City Council is pandering to a bloc of left-wing black aldermen, most notably Alderman Dorothy Tillman. Mayor Daley and his cronies have an iron grip on power, in part because they take no actions that would anger the black electorate.
Personally, I wish the Mayor and council had taken a stand against this nonsense.
posted by Durwood at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2002
The Chicago City Council is pandering to a bloc of left-wing black aldermen, most notably Alderman Dorothy Tillman. Mayor Daley and his cronies have an iron grip on power, in part because they take no actions that would anger the black electorate.
Personally, I wish the Mayor and council had taken a stand against this nonsense.
posted by Durwood at 11:51 AM on October 3, 2002
Hmm, but won't this cut out the low cost contractors?
posted by rudyfink at 11:54 AM on October 3, 2002
posted by rudyfink at 11:54 AM on October 3, 2002
This seems like another example of spineless white politicians collapsing at the knees in order to avoid angering those volatile blacks. The regime in Chicago knows real reparations are implausible if not impossible, just like everyone else. In their ignorance, the blacks who care about this decision think they are getting what they deserve. Little do they know the government is just scared of the noise they might make, and this is a half-assed ploy to shut them up. Nothing like a little condescending racism to get those annoying malcontent monkeys off your back. Even though it might not seem like it, this type of crap happens all the time.
By the way, reparations are a joke. If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
posted by shamelesselitist at 12:09 PM on October 3, 2002
By the way, reparations are a joke. If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
posted by shamelesselitist at 12:09 PM on October 3, 2002
If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
Everyone? There are plenty of people who find themselves in awfully high positions--*cough* president *cough*--simply by the grace of being born into a rich and powerful family. If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to have their fathers' friends buy them professional baseball teams. There is a "privileged class" in the United States, like it or not.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:19 PM on October 3, 2002
Everyone? There are plenty of people who find themselves in awfully high positions--*cough* president *cough*--simply by the grace of being born into a rich and powerful family. If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to have their fathers' friends buy them professional baseball teams. There is a "privileged class" in the United States, like it or not.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:19 PM on October 3, 2002
*finds a good spot to watch*
*ducks from splattering feces*
posted by thekorruptor at 12:22 PM on October 3, 2002
*ducks from splattering feces*
posted by thekorruptor at 12:22 PM on October 3, 2002
Yes, but the priviledged class is small, no matter their influence. You can succeed from nothing to middle class by work, and that is more than many people (white or black) seem interested in accomplishing.
I'm lucky -- the world throws money at me because I still remember ancient and mystical practices (I can do 360/370 assembler)
posted by dwivian at 12:23 PM on October 3, 2002
I'm lucky -- the world throws money at me because I still remember ancient and mystical practices (I can do 360/370 assembler)
posted by dwivian at 12:23 PM on October 3, 2002
I am sure President Bush is the perfect example of the average American.* ?!?
posted by shamelesselitist at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by shamelesselitist at 12:27 PM on October 3, 2002
Nothing like a little condescending racism to get those annoying malcontent monkeys off your back.
If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
Racist posts referring to blacks as "malcontent monkeys" or characterizing them as lazy as a race, are not going to do much to convince people that racism isn't still rampant in America....and that therefore even more active measures aren't needed to redress for its effects.
But then again, racists I've known have always required Kevlar footwear to along with their linen headwear.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:33 PM on October 3, 2002
If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
Racist posts referring to blacks as "malcontent monkeys" or characterizing them as lazy as a race, are not going to do much to convince people that racism isn't still rampant in America....and that therefore even more active measures aren't needed to redress for its effects.
But then again, racists I've known have always required Kevlar footwear to along with their linen headwear.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:33 PM on October 3, 2002
...and toe clips for easier backpedalling.
~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:36 PM on October 3, 2002
~wink~
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:36 PM on October 3, 2002
I am sure President Bush is the perfect example of the average American.* ?!?
If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
Word have meanings, and you wrote "everyone", so I thought you meant "everyone". If you meant "the average American", you should have written "the average American". Don't blame me for your imprecise use of language. My point is simply that there is not class equality among Americans, and to pretend that there is ("they should work for it, like everyone else") dramatically oversimplifies complex class issues.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:36 PM on October 3, 2002
If black people really want some progress, they should be expected to work for it like everyone else.
Word have meanings, and you wrote "everyone", so I thought you meant "everyone". If you meant "the average American", you should have written "the average American". Don't blame me for your imprecise use of language. My point is simply that there is not class equality among Americans, and to pretend that there is ("they should work for it, like everyone else") dramatically oversimplifies complex class issues.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:36 PM on October 3, 2002
Yes, but the priviledged class is small, no matter their influence. You can succeed from nothing to middle class by work, and that is more than many people (white or black) seem interested in accomplishing.
I'm lucky -- the world throws money at me because I still remember ancient and mystical practices (I can do 360/370 assembler)
And you learned that skill probably because you had some privileges or connections that put you in the right place at the right time. When you really start at the bottom, you have all sorts of problems. You can only sell your time for a very little amount of money, so you have to use a lot of it just to make enough to subsist. Being at subsistence level or below, you can't purchase certaint things that could get you farther --computers or software you could learn to use, tuition you could get an education with, health care necessary to keep you from being distracted by pain and illness, nutrition to keep your mind sharp. You can't invest that time in learning new things even with freely available resources, like public libraries, because you're too busy trading your time for minimum wage that keeps you subsisting. We don't have to even get to social and criminal problems that often dog the poor to paint the picture of the problem.
Don't get me wrong. I think reparations are absolutely ridiculous. The nation itself and thousands of white individuals long ago paid in blood and money the debt of slavery. Those accountable for slavery are long dead and gone and by and large despised. Civil rights problems are more modern and relevant, and if there's any legitimacy to the idea of reparations, it's there. But the fact is the problems faced by poor and oppressed Blacks are also shared by the poor and oppressed Whites and Hispanics and Polynesians and Asians and whatever. I saw it all in Los Angeles. The answer isn't a racially-based entitlement program based on feelings elicited from a true but bygone evil. The answer is real help for the poor of any race.
posted by namespan at 12:38 PM on October 3, 2002
I'm lucky -- the world throws money at me because I still remember ancient and mystical practices (I can do 360/370 assembler)
And you learned that skill probably because you had some privileges or connections that put you in the right place at the right time. When you really start at the bottom, you have all sorts of problems. You can only sell your time for a very little amount of money, so you have to use a lot of it just to make enough to subsist. Being at subsistence level or below, you can't purchase certaint things that could get you farther --computers or software you could learn to use, tuition you could get an education with, health care necessary to keep you from being distracted by pain and illness, nutrition to keep your mind sharp. You can't invest that time in learning new things even with freely available resources, like public libraries, because you're too busy trading your time for minimum wage that keeps you subsisting. We don't have to even get to social and criminal problems that often dog the poor to paint the picture of the problem.
Don't get me wrong. I think reparations are absolutely ridiculous. The nation itself and thousands of white individuals long ago paid in blood and money the debt of slavery. Those accountable for slavery are long dead and gone and by and large despised. Civil rights problems are more modern and relevant, and if there's any legitimacy to the idea of reparations, it's there. But the fact is the problems faced by poor and oppressed Blacks are also shared by the poor and oppressed Whites and Hispanics and Polynesians and Asians and whatever. I saw it all in Los Angeles. The answer isn't a racially-based entitlement program based on feelings elicited from a true but bygone evil. The answer is real help for the poor of any race.
posted by namespan at 12:38 PM on October 3, 2002
mr_roboto, you know exactly what I meant. Trying to cast doubt on my point by exposing my "imprecise" language aint gonna work. This is not my "Treatise on Class Inequality in America". Get a grip.
And as far as calling black people "monkeys": I am sure everyone in this forum has heard the colloquialism about having annoying monkeys on your back.
My point was that placating to black people for fear of them becoming angry is deceptive and racist. This is exactly what happened in Chicago.
posted by shamelesselitist at 12:48 PM on October 3, 2002
And as far as calling black people "monkeys": I am sure everyone in this forum has heard the colloquialism about having annoying monkeys on your back.
My point was that placating to black people for fear of them becoming angry is deceptive and racist. This is exactly what happened in Chicago.
posted by shamelesselitist at 12:48 PM on October 3, 2002
Actually, from here in Chicago it seems like shamelesselitist is closer than s/he may imagine...
Sure, the item passed with a 44-0 vote in the City Council. Why? Why no objections, not even abstentions? Because they're not necessary. Politicians can vote for this, knowing full well it will have little or no real effect (sure, a couple of insurance companies are going to feel a little squirmy, but hell, nobody likes them anyway, not even white people). Tillman and Co. (don't forget, this is Jesse Jackson's home town) get some publicity for their ongoing campaign to ensure that racism stays alive and in the forefront of the news (without it where would they be?); non-black politicians are viewed as wanting to "do the right thing," while still not harming any non-black owned businesses. Everybody wins, except those small black kids who will hear this and add it to their already full repetoire of reasons why they cannot succeed on their own merit.
posted by JollyWanker at 12:48 PM on October 3, 2002
Sure, the item passed with a 44-0 vote in the City Council. Why? Why no objections, not even abstentions? Because they're not necessary. Politicians can vote for this, knowing full well it will have little or no real effect (sure, a couple of insurance companies are going to feel a little squirmy, but hell, nobody likes them anyway, not even white people). Tillman and Co. (don't forget, this is Jesse Jackson's home town) get some publicity for their ongoing campaign to ensure that racism stays alive and in the forefront of the news (without it where would they be?); non-black politicians are viewed as wanting to "do the right thing," while still not harming any non-black owned businesses. Everybody wins, except those small black kids who will hear this and add it to their already full repetoire of reasons why they cannot succeed on their own merit.
posted by JollyWanker at 12:48 PM on October 3, 2002
"Being at subsistence level or below, you can't purchase certaint things that could get you farther..."
Finding your nearest army recruiter is probably the best option. So you go through a few years of hell. You get fed, clothed and you get to go to college. Many of kids I grew up with did this and did well compared to the ones that stayed. Myself, I didn't always like the military.. but it gave me a lot.
posted by Akuinnen at 12:51 PM on October 3, 2002
Finding your nearest army recruiter is probably the best option. So you go through a few years of hell. You get fed, clothed and you get to go to college. Many of kids I grew up with did this and did well compared to the ones that stayed. Myself, I didn't always like the military.. but it gave me a lot.
posted by Akuinnen at 12:51 PM on October 3, 2002
And as far as calling black people "monkeys": I am sure everyone in this forum has heard the colloquialism about having annoying monkeys on your back.
Nice toe clips, but really, really poor metaphor. If we were talking about addicts, getting a "monkey" off one's back makes some sense. But referring to black people as "monkeys" is either really racist, or just really dumb.
Everybody wins, except those small black kids who will hear this and add it to their already full repetoire of reasons why they cannot succeed on their own merit.
Oh. Black kids don't succeed because they either have no merit, or because they have an convenient excuse (in their minds only) for why they can't succeed.
Glad to hear that centuries of slavery and discrimination continuing to the present moment didn't have an effect.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:03 PM on October 3, 2002
Nice toe clips, but really, really poor metaphor. If we were talking about addicts, getting a "monkey" off one's back makes some sense. But referring to black people as "monkeys" is either really racist, or just really dumb.
Everybody wins, except those small black kids who will hear this and add it to their already full repetoire of reasons why they cannot succeed on their own merit.
Oh. Black kids don't succeed because they either have no merit, or because they have an convenient excuse (in their minds only) for why they can't succeed.
Glad to hear that centuries of slavery and discrimination continuing to the present moment didn't have an effect.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 1:03 PM on October 3, 2002
f&m: Oh. Black kids don't succeed because they either have no merit, or because they have an convenient excuse (in their minds only) for why they can't succeed.
Glad to hear that centuries of slavery and discrimination continuing to the present moment didn't have an effect.
Slavery and discrimination are two different things, no matter how convenient it is for people like you sling them together. Slavery ended almost 150 years ago. There is nothing that prevents those kids from changing their lives in positive ways, perhaps excepting a bunch of self-serving politicians and race-mongers like Tillman, Jackson, Sharpton, et.al., telling them they are not responsible for themselves, rather they should sit back and let the evil, evil System compensate them because they are inherently unable to achieve what non-black kids achieve.
Now whose being racist?
posted by JollyWanker at 1:09 PM on October 3, 2002
Glad to hear that centuries of slavery and discrimination continuing to the present moment didn't have an effect.
Slavery and discrimination are two different things, no matter how convenient it is for people like you sling them together. Slavery ended almost 150 years ago. There is nothing that prevents those kids from changing their lives in positive ways, perhaps excepting a bunch of self-serving politicians and race-mongers like Tillman, Jackson, Sharpton, et.al., telling them they are not responsible for themselves, rather they should sit back and let the evil, evil System compensate them because they are inherently unable to achieve what non-black kids achieve.
Now whose being racist?
posted by JollyWanker at 1:09 PM on October 3, 2002
Well considering that I was mocking a prototypical Chicago underhanded racist, I thought the comment fit perfectly.
If you weren't so damn committed to characterizing me as a racist, then you would have got my point.
I dont appreciate it all, nerd.
posted by shamelesselitist at 1:14 PM on October 3, 2002
If you weren't so damn committed to characterizing me as a racist, then you would have got my point.
I dont appreciate it all, nerd.
posted by shamelesselitist at 1:14 PM on October 3, 2002
Where was it that I read that if you considered the black race in this country to be their own country, they'd have something like the 7th highest standard of living in the world?... Far, FAR better than they would if they had 'remained' in Africa.
For all of their ancestor's sufferings, blacks have also benefited greatly from the slavery that occured in the country's history.
posted by eas98 at 1:46 PM on October 3, 2002
For all of their ancestor's sufferings, blacks have also benefited greatly from the slavery that occured in the country's history.
posted by eas98 at 1:46 PM on October 3, 2002
JollyWanker v. shamelesselitist aside, I'm also in Chicago and what surprised me is how little media attention this story received. Sure I heard it on the local news, but the lopstick buying tips segment and the story about the housewife who stopped cleaning up the house when she went on a "labor strike" received much more attention.
posted by stvc15 at 1:49 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by stvc15 at 1:49 PM on October 3, 2002
Jollywanker isnt a nerd; I must be clear about this.
fold_and_mutilate is as nerd.
posted by shamelesselitist at 1:54 PM on October 3, 2002
fold_and_mutilate is as nerd.
posted by shamelesselitist at 1:54 PM on October 3, 2002
For all of their ancestor's sufferings, blacks have also benefited greatly from the slavery that occurred in the country's history.
Dinesh Dsouza? . . . are you lurking here hiding as eas98?
posted by stvc15 at 1:55 PM on October 3, 2002
Dinesh Dsouza? . . . are you lurking here hiding as eas98?
posted by stvc15 at 1:55 PM on October 3, 2002
here's an interesting past discussion we had on reparations
but I would call this something closer (sort-of) to divestiture....like city and state govts. did in the 80s re: Apartheid...and like student groups all over the country are calling for now re: Israel/Palestine...
and shameless: fold is right.
...this is a half-assed ploy to shut them up. Nothing like a little condescending racism to get those annoying malcontent monkeys off your back... What the fuck?!?
posted by amberglow at 2:21 PM on October 3, 2002
but I would call this something closer (sort-of) to divestiture....like city and state govts. did in the 80s re: Apartheid...and like student groups all over the country are calling for now re: Israel/Palestine...
and shameless: fold is right.
...this is a half-assed ploy to shut them up. Nothing like a little condescending racism to get those annoying malcontent monkeys off your back... What the fuck?!?
posted by amberglow at 2:21 PM on October 3, 2002
stvc....I think he meant that African-Americans are *economically* better off because of forced slavery. That's not saying that slavery is a good thing. But it also, I'd say, counters the economics-based reparations argument.
In any case, discrimination that happened to your ancestors should have no bearing on your future. Do the Lowell industries owe me money because my Irish great-grandmum basically worked slave labor there? I don't think so.
We have 40% income mobility from the bottom quintile over 10 years - that is, 4 out of the 10 poorest Americans are no longer poor 10 years later. There's not much holding anyone back, black or white.
Is there discrimination? Sure. Should it be ended completely? Of course. Does it stop African-Americans from succeeding? Not at all.
posted by Kevs at 2:25 PM on October 3, 2002
In any case, discrimination that happened to your ancestors should have no bearing on your future. Do the Lowell industries owe me money because my Irish great-grandmum basically worked slave labor there? I don't think so.
We have 40% income mobility from the bottom quintile over 10 years - that is, 4 out of the 10 poorest Americans are no longer poor 10 years later. There's not much holding anyone back, black or white.
Is there discrimination? Sure. Should it be ended completely? Of course. Does it stop African-Americans from succeeding? Not at all.
posted by Kevs at 2:25 PM on October 3, 2002
It should also be noted that this deflects the reparations issue away from the government and onto private industry. In the end everyone would still wind up footing the bill in some way, but it wouldn't come from tax revenue. In other words, the city leaders are being cowards, as usual, and trying to please everybody. The whole reparations thing seems silly and patronizing if not cynical and condescending, and I can't believe it has gathered this much steam.
I foolishly thought that the apparent backlash against political correctness might at least meant people were willing to stand up (to some extent) for free speech and free thought. Or maybe, hopefully, Chicago is just behind the times.
posted by jlynford2 at 2:26 PM on October 3, 2002
I foolishly thought that the apparent backlash against political correctness might at least meant people were willing to stand up (to some extent) for free speech and free thought. Or maybe, hopefully, Chicago is just behind the times.
posted by jlynford2 at 2:26 PM on October 3, 2002
Shameless, thanks for clarifying who you are insulting. I was getting worried there for a sec.
posted by thekorruptor at 2:28 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by thekorruptor at 2:28 PM on October 3, 2002
In any case, discrimination that happened to your ancestors should have no bearing on your future. Do the Lowell industries owe me money because my Irish great-grandmum basically worked slave labor there? I don't think so.
But you can choose not to do business with, or buy products from them, which is what the city of Chicago is doing. My family refuses to buy German cars because of the Holocaust--it's the same principle.
posted by amberglow at 2:31 PM on October 3, 2002
But you can choose not to do business with, or buy products from them, which is what the city of Chicago is doing. My family refuses to buy German cars because of the Holocaust--it's the same principle.
posted by amberglow at 2:31 PM on October 3, 2002
Pardon me for trying to get back to the post, but It's not clear to me that everyone here actually gets the fact that this plan includes no reparations or penalties; suggested or implied. If your company (which still exists) benefited from slavery, admit it. What's so bad about that?
posted by originalname37 at 2:49 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by originalname37 at 2:49 PM on October 3, 2002
(There is a penalty for lying about it but not for having benefited from slavery)
posted by originalname37 at 2:51 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by originalname37 at 2:51 PM on October 3, 2002
If your company (which still exists) benefited from slavery, admit it. What's so bad about that?
Do you really think the council members pushing for this would approve any contract with a company that admits it profited from slavery? And insurers aside, wouldn't it be a little difficult to find cotton plantation owners in Chicago who currently do business with the city? I think it's clear that this is just the first step toward something else, and it's not meant to be the last word on the issue. It sends a clear signal that city leaders give in to the pressure on this issue. Although I suspect they're being disingenuous, hoping this shuts people up.
posted by jlynford2 at 3:02 PM on October 3, 2002
Do you really think the council members pushing for this would approve any contract with a company that admits it profited from slavery? And insurers aside, wouldn't it be a little difficult to find cotton plantation owners in Chicago who currently do business with the city? I think it's clear that this is just the first step toward something else, and it's not meant to be the last word on the issue. It sends a clear signal that city leaders give in to the pressure on this issue. Although I suspect they're being disingenuous, hoping this shuts people up.
posted by jlynford2 at 3:02 PM on October 3, 2002
an important reminder from the semantic security department: discrimination, in most contexts, is a good thing. it's what separates the shit from the shinola. returning to our regular programming, i wonder if the city of chicago has disclosed any fiduciary benefits it may have enjoyed as a result of slavery? goose, gander, etc...
posted by quonsar at 3:17 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by quonsar at 3:17 PM on October 3, 2002
Do you really think the council members pushing for this would approve any contract with a company that admits it profited from slavery?
Presumably, they already do business with companies that the city knows benefited from slavery. Otherwise, how could they know whether the companies denying involvement in slavery are telling the truth?
I think it's clear that this is just the first step toward something else...
Me too: RECONCILIATION.
posted by originalname37 at 3:18 PM on October 3, 2002
Presumably, they already do business with companies that the city knows benefited from slavery. Otherwise, how could they know whether the companies denying involvement in slavery are telling the truth?
I think it's clear that this is just the first step toward something else...
Me too: RECONCILIATION.
posted by originalname37 at 3:18 PM on October 3, 2002
Disingenuous? I thought they were rather up front about it (Sun Times link):
Two years after urging Congress to confront the issue of slave reparations, the City Council unanimously agreed to arm that growing movement with the information it needs to target specific companies. [emphasis mine]
As for the "no connection to slaveholders in the past argument: so are corporations designated as "immortal persons" or not? Or does that immortality only count in a positive financial sense, with debts and liabilities quietly interred whenever it's convenient? I'm all confused.
Meh, to tell the truth, I'm not really in the mood to rehash the whole reparations argument. The belated arguments I made in the last one will just have to do for now.
posted by tyro urge at 3:19 PM on October 3, 2002
Two years after urging Congress to confront the issue of slave reparations, the City Council unanimously agreed to arm that growing movement with the information it needs to target specific companies. [emphasis mine]
As for the "no connection to slaveholders in the past argument: so are corporations designated as "immortal persons" or not? Or does that immortality only count in a positive financial sense, with debts and liabilities quietly interred whenever it's convenient? I'm all confused.
Meh, to tell the truth, I'm not really in the mood to rehash the whole reparations argument. The belated arguments I made in the last one will just have to do for now.
posted by tyro urge at 3:19 PM on October 3, 2002
If your company (which still exists) benefited from slavery, admit it. What's so bad about that?
nothing. my company would eagerly enter into a contract with the city of chicago any time. just as soon as each and every citizen of that fair city admits to having benefitted from the slaughter of millions of indigenous north americans. reparations is shit thinking. what's done is done. what do we do now, that is the key.
posted by quonsar at 3:26 PM on October 3, 2002
nothing. my company would eagerly enter into a contract with the city of chicago any time. just as soon as each and every citizen of that fair city admits to having benefitted from the slaughter of millions of indigenous north americans. reparations is shit thinking. what's done is done. what do we do now, that is the key.
posted by quonsar at 3:26 PM on October 3, 2002
discrimination, in most contexts, is a good thing. it's what separates the shit from the shinola.
that the key?
posted by clavdivs at 3:38 PM on October 3, 2002
that the key?
posted by clavdivs at 3:38 PM on October 3, 2002
...as soon as each and every citizen of that fair city admits to having benefitted from the slaughter of millions of indigenous north americans...
Good. I certainly hope none of them would deny it. As far as what's done being done, however; that doesn't mean we get to pretend it didn't happen.
posted by originalname37 at 3:39 PM on October 3, 2002
Good. I certainly hope none of them would deny it. As far as what's done being done, however; that doesn't mean we get to pretend it didn't happen.
posted by originalname37 at 3:39 PM on October 3, 2002
clavdivs: that was just a random semantic musing. if you don't discriminate, you can't distinguish. the word has acquired a darker meaning since the civil rights movement. still, it remains a good thing to discriminate lest you end up with salt in your coffee and sugar on your mashed potatos.
originalname37: right, i didn't intend to imply forgetting it happened. i wasn't clear about that. a society trying to heal itself after a disaster, like an individual, must confront and acknowledge what has happened, learn from it, alter any contributing behavior and move on.
posted by quonsar at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2002
originalname37: right, i didn't intend to imply forgetting it happened. i wasn't clear about that. a society trying to heal itself after a disaster, like an individual, must confront and acknowledge what has happened, learn from it, alter any contributing behavior and move on.
posted by quonsar at 4:05 PM on October 3, 2002
A museum of slavery might be a good place to invest money that might go towards reparations. It is pretty weird that there isn't a museum (unless there is and I'm missing it) to catalogue and learn from the darkest part of American history.
posted by cell divide at 4:07 PM on October 3, 2002
posted by cell divide at 4:07 PM on October 3, 2002
kevs: that 40% mobility statistic is a cool piece of info... do you have a reference on hand? Does it get better (50%) if you go longer? I'd feel better about the stat if more than half eventually moved out of poverty.
Akuinnen: your point about the armed forces is a good one. Thomas Sowell would agree with you, since he did that, and he definitely got somewhere, and definitely had a couple of strikes against him starting out -- black, poor, family didn't support an academic career, dropped out of high school. There are a few other options, too -- if you're the right age, job corps, student loans if your high school grades could get you into college, etc. Certainly more than in other societies. But these options are available and financed by tax dollars, and certainly not something for nothing prospects. We do a good thing to remember how hard it can be to get out of poverty, for the reasons I mentioned, and support programs that can help.
posted by namespan at 4:41 PM on October 3, 2002
Akuinnen: your point about the armed forces is a good one. Thomas Sowell would agree with you, since he did that, and he definitely got somewhere, and definitely had a couple of strikes against him starting out -- black, poor, family didn't support an academic career, dropped out of high school. There are a few other options, too -- if you're the right age, job corps, student loans if your high school grades could get you into college, etc. Certainly more than in other societies. But these options are available and financed by tax dollars, and certainly not something for nothing prospects. We do a good thing to remember how hard it can be to get out of poverty, for the reasons I mentioned, and support programs that can help.
posted by namespan at 4:41 PM on October 3, 2002
i read you Q. but the overall word is meant to "...Set up exceptional treatment against or in favor of..." (From me pocket Oxford dictionary.)
is it exceptional to have a need to distinguish sugar from salt?
A museum of slavery might be a good place to invest money that might go towards reparations. It is pretty weird that there isn't a museum (unless there is and I'm missing it) to catalogue and learn from the darkest part of American history.
it is called google....try it.
posted by clavdivs at 4:57 PM on October 3, 2002
is it exceptional to have a need to distinguish sugar from salt?
A museum of slavery might be a good place to invest money that might go towards reparations. It is pretty weird that there isn't a museum (unless there is and I'm missing it) to catalogue and learn from the darkest part of American history.
it is called google....try it.
posted by clavdivs at 4:57 PM on October 3, 2002
There is nothing that prevents those kids from changing their lives in positive ways, perhaps excepting a bunch of self-serving politicians and race-mongers like Tillman, Jackson, Sharpton, et.al., telling them they are not responsible for themselves
Beg to differ, but this is exactly the point. Right now those kids are likely the descendents of poor parent’s and grandparents. Efforts such as in Chicago, while largely symbolic, help make the point that there is some history behind the poverty. Ignoring the history implies they are poor because of some racial defect of themselves and their ancestors, ergo, there is nothing they can do about it.
posted by MetalDog at 5:16 PM on October 3, 2002
Beg to differ, but this is exactly the point. Right now those kids are likely the descendents of poor parent’s and grandparents. Efforts such as in Chicago, while largely symbolic, help make the point that there is some history behind the poverty. Ignoring the history implies they are poor because of some racial defect of themselves and their ancestors, ergo, there is nothing they can do about it.
posted by MetalDog at 5:16 PM on October 3, 2002
What's wrong with the phrase 'getting a monkey off your back?" I always assumed it simply ment taking care of a problem that has been pestering you; is there some sort of veiled meanining people are seeing/want to see?
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:47 AM on October 4, 2002
posted by Lord Chancellor at 12:47 AM on October 4, 2002
MetalDog: History has absolutely nothing to do with what people choose to do now.
Otherwise, does that mean white people are incapable of being impartial when it comes to race?
Are white people inherently racist?
Of course not. Likewise, black people are not unsuccessful on account of race; they are unsuccessful (at least as a group) becuase of culture, which has nothing to do with black skin.
Surely you have heard of Oreos, Bananas, wiggers, honeydews, coconuts and the like. These are poeple who act outside of society's standards for culture according totheir race.
So its about choices people. A victimhood world view is what is keeping so many blacks down; we all know it, but some people lack the pelotas to tell the truth. Sadly people would rather save face and let people revel in their folly.
The Chicago board of supervisors is deluding itself by even entertaining this crap.
posted by shamelesselitist at 2:17 AM on October 4, 2002
Otherwise, does that mean white people are incapable of being impartial when it comes to race?
Are white people inherently racist?
Of course not. Likewise, black people are not unsuccessful on account of race; they are unsuccessful (at least as a group) becuase of culture, which has nothing to do with black skin.
Surely you have heard of Oreos, Bananas, wiggers, honeydews, coconuts and the like. These are poeple who act outside of society's standards for culture according totheir race.
So its about choices people. A victimhood world view is what is keeping so many blacks down; we all know it, but some people lack the pelotas to tell the truth. Sadly people would rather save face and let people revel in their folly.
The Chicago board of supervisors is deluding itself by even entertaining this crap.
posted by shamelesselitist at 2:17 AM on October 4, 2002
cell divide - Not exactly a museum of slavery, but have you checked out the gorgeous new Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History? It is located in the heart of Detroit's Cultural Center, next to the Detroit Science Center and within one block walking distance of the Detroit Institute of Arts. You oughta come visit!
OK, so they've got one in Chicago too, big deal...
posted by BinGregory at 8:48 AM on October 4, 2002
OK, so they've got one in Chicago too, big deal...
posted by BinGregory at 8:48 AM on October 4, 2002
Once again, a Metafilter reparations thread has been reduced to faulty logic and stereotypical statements.
shamelesselitist, maybe you could go into detail about this "group culture" that seems to have wholly supplanted the outright racism that apparently evaporated in the face of sixties desegregation? Please provide links and support, for I am very eager to rid myself of this vile aura of victimhood.
quonsar, I was going to ask about the logic behind this statement, but then I asked myself: "What if he really lives that way? For all I know, he could be typing with one hand and ending world hunger, war, and pestilence with the other! That quonsar: always working towards the greatest possible good. To think I almost accused him of hypocrisy!"
It seems like these discussions always end up wallowing in illogic, distraction, and unfounded stereotypes. Why is that?
While I wait for an answer, I think I'll get myself elected President so I can gut Social Security. Yeah, I'm still in my twenties, and it's not an election year, and there's bound to be some opposition, but who cares? History is Bunk. I never personally ratified the Constitution, and I have a hard time seeing why I should pay for something neither I nor my ancestors personally approved. As a wise man once said, what's done is done. What we do now, that is the key. Mmm. Adios, law; hello, anarchy!
posted by tyro urge at 3:48 PM on October 4, 2002
shamelesselitist, maybe you could go into detail about this "group culture" that seems to have wholly supplanted the outright racism that apparently evaporated in the face of sixties desegregation? Please provide links and support, for I am very eager to rid myself of this vile aura of victimhood.
quonsar, I was going to ask about the logic behind this statement, but then I asked myself: "What if he really lives that way? For all I know, he could be typing with one hand and ending world hunger, war, and pestilence with the other! That quonsar: always working towards the greatest possible good. To think I almost accused him of hypocrisy!"
It seems like these discussions always end up wallowing in illogic, distraction, and unfounded stereotypes. Why is that?
While I wait for an answer, I think I'll get myself elected President so I can gut Social Security. Yeah, I'm still in my twenties, and it's not an election year, and there's bound to be some opposition, but who cares? History is Bunk. I never personally ratified the Constitution, and I have a hard time seeing why I should pay for something neither I nor my ancestors personally approved. As a wise man once said, what's done is done. What we do now, that is the key. Mmm. Adios, law; hello, anarchy!
posted by tyro urge at 3:48 PM on October 4, 2002
... and so, the good people of Chicago, no matter their race, get up and work another day. Trying to make a living for them and their families, ignoring posturing and wrangling from politicians whose effect on their lives is nil from this decision.
But seriously, based on some of the statements here, you would think that there's no way poor people could ever pull themselves up to society's next rung. Yet, it happens all the time.
Humans are silly that way.
posted by owillis at 2:32 AM on October 5, 2002
But seriously, based on some of the statements here, you would think that there's no way poor people could ever pull themselves up to society's next rung. Yet, it happens all the time.
Humans are silly that way.
posted by owillis at 2:32 AM on October 5, 2002
Fighting for reparations doesn't necessarily mean quitting your day job, owillis.
(Sorry quonsar. That came out way, way harsher than it had any reason to be. I personally think reparations are ridiculously unlikely, but not for any legal or logical reasons-- there's just too much opposition to the very idea.)
posted by tyro urge at 8:59 PM on October 5, 2002
(Sorry quonsar. That came out way, way harsher than it had any reason to be. I personally think reparations are ridiculously unlikely, but not for any legal or logical reasons-- there's just too much opposition to the very idea.)
posted by tyro urge at 8:59 PM on October 5, 2002
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posted by aladfar at 11:38 AM on October 3, 2002