Two men held in connection with sniper case
October 24, 2002 3:31 AM Subscribe
Two men held in connection with sniper case And I was just getting used to seeing 24-7 coverage of it on every frigging channel. Now we'll have to hear about Iraq or Martha Stewart again.
Two conflicting stories right now.
Apparently in one of the letters left by the shooter(s), they demanded $10 million:
MSNBC is reporting that it also gave a Bank Account number to a bank in Jamaica (The Stepson is Jamaican)
on the other hand...
FOX News is reporting that the letter instead contained a Credit Card number and PIN number to have the money transferred to. The credit card was taken from the woman killed in the liquor store robbery in Alabama, where a magazine with the stepson's fingerprint was found...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:01 AM on October 24, 2002
Apparently in one of the letters left by the shooter(s), they demanded $10 million:
MSNBC is reporting that it also gave a Bank Account number to a bank in Jamaica (The Stepson is Jamaican)
on the other hand...
FOX News is reporting that the letter instead contained a Credit Card number and PIN number to have the money transferred to. The credit card was taken from the woman killed in the liquor store robbery in Alabama, where a magazine with the stepson's fingerprint was found...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:01 AM on October 24, 2002
FPP always reminds me of Eminem:
So the FPP wont let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on MTV,
but it feels so empty without me.
This post does meet the criteria. I could probably find a much cleverer way to say that, but I'm waiting for walrus to please email me some coffee. Then watch out, for I will be clever as all get-out.
And re: possibly catching the snipers: yay.
posted by iconomy at 5:05 AM on October 24, 2002
So the FPP wont let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on MTV,
but it feels so empty without me.
This post does meet the criteria. I could probably find a much cleverer way to say that, but I'm waiting for walrus to please email me some coffee. Then watch out, for I will be clever as all get-out.
And re: possibly catching the snipers: yay.
posted by iconomy at 5:05 AM on October 24, 2002
Sources are now saying the two are considered suspects.
posted by mischief at 5:11 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by mischief at 5:11 AM on October 24, 2002
Is this big? It might be, but, it might not be. Add the fact that this will be hammered on by TV and plastered all over news sites and I don't think it needs a FPP, again, for the nth time.
Metafilter is not where breaking news gets reported. Or at least not supposed to be.
It isn't that I am not interested in learning the facts of this case, and I do hope that the police have their man and can put an end to this, but, I can go to Yahoo, CBS, Fox or a kazillion other news sites and read it.
That is why this is not FPP material.
Now later today or tomorrow, if this is indeed the end, a thread could start here with some links possibly to how the clues all came together and the circumstances surrounding the whole ongoing saga, and then some debate and discussion could actually take place.
I believe that some started referring to this type of post as newsfilter and/or sniperfilter.
Less sniper and less political posts and more posts of obscure things that you would never think about until someone pushed you to it by posting here is what we need. I don't need to hear that GW is in evil/idiot/etc... again and again. Same for the slants from the other side.
posted by a3matrix at 5:15 AM on October 24, 2002
Metafilter is not where breaking news gets reported. Or at least not supposed to be.
It isn't that I am not interested in learning the facts of this case, and I do hope that the police have their man and can put an end to this, but, I can go to Yahoo, CBS, Fox or a kazillion other news sites and read it.
That is why this is not FPP material.
Now later today or tomorrow, if this is indeed the end, a thread could start here with some links possibly to how the clues all came together and the circumstances surrounding the whole ongoing saga, and then some debate and discussion could actually take place.
I believe that some started referring to this type of post as newsfilter and/or sniperfilter.
Less sniper and less political posts and more posts of obscure things that you would never think about until someone pushed you to it by posting here is what we need. I don't need to hear that GW is in evil/idiot/etc... again and again. Same for the slants from the other side.
posted by a3matrix at 5:15 AM on October 24, 2002
The short version is that these two are implicated in a shooting in Montgomery, Alabama a month ago. So far nothing ties them to the sniper shootings.
posted by y6y6y6 at 5:24 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by y6y6y6 at 5:24 AM on October 24, 2002
The credit card does, as well as rounds found in a tree stump in a house John Allen recently rented in Washington state
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:26 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:26 AM on October 24, 2002
That is, if you belive FOX News...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 5:28 AM on October 24, 2002
Couldn't we at least wait until we know the facts of a story before posting it here? If we're going to have two or three sniper stories a day, could they at least be more than Rumorfilter material?
posted by UnReality at 5:31 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by UnReality at 5:31 AM on October 24, 2002
I can go to Yahoo, CBS, Fox or a kazillion other news sites and read it.
Some of us live in close proximity to these killings. If you want to discuss what it's like to live under these circumstances, maybe that's more appropriate MeFi material.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 5:52 AM on October 24, 2002
Some of us live in close proximity to these killings. If you want to discuss what it's like to live under these circumstances, maybe that's more appropriate MeFi material.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 5:52 AM on October 24, 2002
And, of course, if you want to get your news only from blogs, you might try Sniper Blog, which is MT powered to boot.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 6:10 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 6:10 AM on October 24, 2002
Some of us live in close proximity to these killings. If you want to discuss what it's like to live under these circumstances, maybe that's more appropriate MeFi material.
That would be a chatroom or something along those lines, no?
Rumorfilter I missed that one.
posted by a3matrix at 6:15 AM on October 24, 2002
That would be a chatroom or something along those lines, no?
Rumorfilter I missed that one.
posted by a3matrix at 6:15 AM on October 24, 2002
For someone who has no interest in this thread, a3m, you sure are posting to it a lot.
posted by mischief at 6:19 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by mischief at 6:19 AM on October 24, 2002
"The credit card does, as well as rounds...."
You have a link to this? I can't find it at FoxNews.Com. Or anywhere else. I know he's linked to the Montgomery shooting, but I don't see where that is linked to the sniper, other than the MO.
I'm very dubious now that the FBI is on the case. They have a solid record of arresting the wrong man in high profile cases.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:20 AM on October 24, 2002
You have a link to this? I can't find it at FoxNews.Com. Or anywhere else. I know he's linked to the Montgomery shooting, but I don't see where that is linked to the sniper, other than the MO.
I'm very dubious now that the FBI is on the case. They have a solid record of arresting the wrong man in high profile cases.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:20 AM on October 24, 2002
Fox News reported Tuesday that a credit card was playing a crucial role in the investigation. The credit card apparently was taken following a liquor store robbery in Montgomery, Ala., on Sept. 21.
In that shooting, 52-year-old Claudine Parker was shot and killed. That credit card taken during the liquor store robbery is the same one to which the serial sniper wanted $10 million transferred.
It now seems clear that the search warrants being run in Alabama are somehow connected to this leg of the investigation. Fox News was told that this same stolen credit card was used recently in the Washington, D.C., area
Link to full story at FOX
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 6:24 AM on October 24, 2002
In that shooting, 52-year-old Claudine Parker was shot and killed. That credit card taken during the liquor store robbery is the same one to which the serial sniper wanted $10 million transferred.
It now seems clear that the search warrants being run in Alabama are somehow connected to this leg of the investigation. Fox News was told that this same stolen credit card was used recently in the Washington, D.C., area
Link to full story at FOX
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 6:24 AM on October 24, 2002
Though now watching the Press conference with the Montgomery Police Chief, he now says that no Credit Card was stolen... So much for that....
(Thanks FOX for making me look like ass)
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 6:26 AM on October 24, 2002
(Thanks FOX for making me look like ass)
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 6:26 AM on October 24, 2002
It isn't that I am not interested, or that I don't care, but we have seen a lot of posts regarding this story, and a lot of debate as to whether or not it is postworthy on Metafilter.
I am merely stating my opinion, that it currently is not mefi material. It is an ongoing new story that can be read everywhere these days.
Please don't mistake me as a member of the post police, that I am not. Just thought I would weigh in on the "why or why not" this is FPP material issue, that's all.
If the police have got the right people, I think an intersting post(s) would be how the pieces of this puzzle came together. House in Tacoma, murders in Alabama, car with NJ plates, why they picked the DC metro as a target.
The post investigation roundup is more what I would expect to find here on mefi, not the ongoing updates.
But, that is just my opinion.
posted by a3matrix at 6:30 AM on October 24, 2002
I am merely stating my opinion, that it currently is not mefi material. It is an ongoing new story that can be read everywhere these days.
Please don't mistake me as a member of the post police, that I am not. Just thought I would weigh in on the "why or why not" this is FPP material issue, that's all.
If the police have got the right people, I think an intersting post(s) would be how the pieces of this puzzle came together. House in Tacoma, murders in Alabama, car with NJ plates, why they picked the DC metro as a target.
The post investigation roundup is more what I would expect to find here on mefi, not the ongoing updates.
But, that is just my opinion.
posted by a3matrix at 6:30 AM on October 24, 2002
Thanks FOX for making me look like ass
The problem with threads like this is that they make all of us look like asses. Mischief, "over" would be a conviction, your prescience notwithstanding.
posted by walrus at 6:31 AM on October 24, 2002
The problem with threads like this is that they make all of us look like asses. Mischief, "over" would be a conviction, your prescience notwithstanding.
posted by walrus at 6:31 AM on October 24, 2002
Here's a link to nbc4.com (local DC NBC affiliate) that seems to be updated fairly regularly, for those in the thread interested in reading about what's up w/ the arrests:
http://www.nbc4.com/news/1737589/detail.html
posted by drobot at 6:32 AM on October 24, 2002
http://www.nbc4.com/news/1737589/detail.html
posted by drobot at 6:32 AM on October 24, 2002
Not everyone agrees with the draconian steps taken to make the Newsfilter! Newsfilter! Newsfilter! crowd feel better. Keep that in mind. But then, I'm sure y'all get a whole lot out of looking at all the angles regarding the latest Mastercard parody. Priceless discussion, indeed.
I mean, we can wait a few days until the requisite in-depth summaries are written, but who'll want to discuss it then?
It's probably too early to say any of this is definitive -- but the reported tidbits fall together with a bit of a clink. I'm pleased that my own hunch has been vindicated -- that the white van or truck was, all along, a red herring. I don't think, for instance, that any ballistics can have come back on shells retrieved from the tree stump.
I'm quite amused that the guy wanted to put $10M on a credit card. As someone else said: put little finger at lip, say ten millllllion dollars!. The ol' bag of unnumbered bills just ain't what it used to be.
The worst of it, of course, is that this sicko took his stepson down the slide to hell with him. The authorities are taking pains -- even on background -- to avoid labeling the kid an active participant, but this is before questioning. He'll have a hard time avoiding being prosecuted as an adult, and felony murder sticks even if you weren't the triggerman, as long as you were present. (Accessories are people who help, but at a remove. Supplying a car, or an alibi.) And MD, VA, and AB are all death-penalty states.
posted by dhartung at 6:40 AM on October 24, 2002
I mean, we can wait a few days until the requisite in-depth summaries are written, but who'll want to discuss it then?
It's probably too early to say any of this is definitive -- but the reported tidbits fall together with a bit of a clink. I'm pleased that my own hunch has been vindicated -- that the white van or truck was, all along, a red herring. I don't think, for instance, that any ballistics can have come back on shells retrieved from the tree stump.
I'm quite amused that the guy wanted to put $10M on a credit card. As someone else said: put little finger at lip, say ten millllllion dollars!. The ol' bag of unnumbered bills just ain't what it used to be.
The worst of it, of course, is that this sicko took his stepson down the slide to hell with him. The authorities are taking pains -- even on background -- to avoid labeling the kid an active participant, but this is before questioning. He'll have a hard time avoiding being prosecuted as an adult, and felony murder sticks even if you weren't the triggerman, as long as you were present. (Accessories are people who help, but at a remove. Supplying a car, or an alibi.) And MD, VA, and AB are all death-penalty states.
posted by dhartung at 6:40 AM on October 24, 2002
Rumorfilter
That seems about right. Although:
That seems about right. Although:
[A] law enforcement source told the AP that "I'm confident that these are indeed the people" sought in the killings.posted by moonbiter at 6:46 AM on October 24, 2002
"The evidence is all there and because of things we've received in the communications," the source said. "It fits together with evidence they've collected in the last couple days."
And MD, VA, and AB are all death-penalty states
Interesting to note that Maryland has a temporary moratorium on death penalty executions. If these are the culprits, I wonder if they'll be tried in another state.
posted by bullitt 5 at 6:49 AM on October 24, 2002
Interesting to note that Maryland has a temporary moratorium on death penalty executions. If these are the culprits, I wonder if they'll be tried in another state.
posted by bullitt 5 at 6:49 AM on October 24, 2002
I am merely stating my opinion, that it currently is not mefi material
a3m: As a member of the 4-digit reactionaries, you know full well that Me-Talk is the space for such sewage. Matt clearly laid out 3 conditions, any 1 of which was sufficient for another sniper post, and this post meets all 3. All you are doing is playing sycophant to your contemporaries.
posted by mischief at 7:08 AM on October 24, 2002
a3m: As a member of the 4-digit reactionaries, you know full well that Me-Talk is the space for such sewage. Matt clearly laid out 3 conditions, any 1 of which was sufficient for another sniper post, and this post meets all 3. All you are doing is playing sycophant to your contemporaries.
posted by mischief at 7:08 AM on October 24, 2002
Me-Talk is the space for such sewage
Hoist by your own petard, my mischievous friend.
posted by walrus at 7:18 AM on October 24, 2002
Hoist by your own petard, my mischievous friend.
posted by walrus at 7:18 AM on October 24, 2002
If these are the culprits, I wonder if they'll be tried in another state.
Since the shootings took place in mulitiple states, wouldn't they (or whoever) be charged in Federal Court, and follow Timmy McVeigh down the federal DP line?
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:20 AM on October 24, 2002
Since the shootings took place in mulitiple states, wouldn't they (or whoever) be charged in Federal Court, and follow Timmy McVeigh down the federal DP line?
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:20 AM on October 24, 2002
I thought McVeigh was a federal case because he (they?) blew-up a federal building...?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:23 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:23 AM on October 24, 2002
4-digit reactionaries? oooh, I wanna be one too! But then I suppose "all of you get over yourselves. it's just a feggin' blog" isn't a reactionary enough position, is it?
ObThread: Yes, I agree that this does come together with more of a click than the two hapless aliens who got busted at the pay-phone did. I'm fascinated, though, by the Chief Moose's "duck in a noose" statement last night. What could the assassin possibly have been trying to get him to convey?
posted by jammer at 7:29 AM on October 24, 2002
ObThread: Yes, I agree that this does come together with more of a click than the two hapless aliens who got busted at the pay-phone did. I'm fascinated, though, by the Chief Moose's "duck in a noose" statement last night. What could the assassin possibly have been trying to get him to convey?
posted by jammer at 7:29 AM on October 24, 2002
Is it just me, or does it seem like most MeFi threads these days mostly just consist of discussions about what is or is not worthy of an FPP?
posted by spilon at 7:40 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by spilon at 7:40 AM on October 24, 2002
I thought McVeigh was a federal case because he (they?) blew-up a federal building...?
True. The only reason I even brought him up is b/c he was the first prisoner executed by Federal authorities (as opposed to State Authorities) in a very long time (some two decades, maybe even since the Death Penalty was re-enacted in the States).
But I thought that crimes became Federal Crimes when they occured in more than one state. Any legally knowledged people care to elaborate?
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2002
True. The only reason I even brought him up is b/c he was the first prisoner executed by Federal authorities (as opposed to State Authorities) in a very long time (some two decades, maybe even since the Death Penalty was re-enacted in the States).
But I thought that crimes became Federal Crimes when they occured in more than one state. Any legally knowledged people care to elaborate?
posted by Ufez Jones at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2002
Yes spilon, you are right on.
For you post nazis, if you don't think that a thread is worthy of a FPP, then don't contribute to it. If it is truly unworthy, it will die out on its own.
posted by eas98 at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2002
For you post nazis, if you don't think that a thread is worthy of a FPP, then don't contribute to it. If it is truly unworthy, it will die out on its own.
posted by eas98 at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2002
It's not you, spilon.
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:48 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by LittleMissCranky at 7:48 AM on October 24, 2002
enough with the snipers, we need more of those Apple posts!
posted by ejoey at 7:50 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by ejoey at 7:50 AM on October 24, 2002
Further Alabama/Islam connection? Former 60s radical H. Rap Brown -- now Jamil Abdullah Al-Amin, a convicted muderer and radical muslim, shot at police with a .223 rifle in Alabama in 2000.
posted by Frank Grimes at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Frank Grimes at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2002
"If it is truly unworthy, it will die out on its own."
Actually, it won't. Unworthy threads drag on all of the time. Sometimes threads are unworthy because they suck. Newer members see sucky threads, and then post sucky threads. Sometimes threads are unworthy because they aren't what this site is about. But if people see them, they might think, "Hey, I've got the latest news about x. I'll post it on Metafilter". Poor posts left to linger on Metafilter only encourage newer members to post other poor-quality or off-the-mark posts.
posted by websavvy at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2002
Actually, it won't. Unworthy threads drag on all of the time. Sometimes threads are unworthy because they suck. Newer members see sucky threads, and then post sucky threads. Sometimes threads are unworthy because they aren't what this site is about. But if people see them, they might think, "Hey, I've got the latest news about x. I'll post it on Metafilter". Poor posts left to linger on Metafilter only encourage newer members to post other poor-quality or off-the-mark posts.
posted by websavvy at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2002
But I thought that crimes became Federal Crimes when they occurred in more than one state.
Yeah I don't know how that works. It isn't like they committed a crime like kidnapping by crossing state lines, they committed individual crimes in each state. Does that count?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:58 AM on October 24, 2002
Yeah I don't know how that works. It isn't like they committed a crime like kidnapping by crossing state lines, they committed individual crimes in each state. Does that count?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 7:58 AM on October 24, 2002
To continue this thread please register with the proper authorities
posted by ejoey at 7:59 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by ejoey at 7:59 AM on October 24, 2002
Is it just me, or does it seem like most MeFi threads these days mostly just consist of discussions about what is or is not worthy of an FPP?
Seems like just the suboptimal ones to me.
posted by walrus at 8:00 AM on October 24, 2002
Seems like just the suboptimal ones to me.
posted by walrus at 8:00 AM on October 24, 2002
For the record: Alabama is AL, not AB. What's interesting to me at the moment, by the way, is the connection to a military-style training facility in Marion, AL, called Ground Zero. It won some coverage before, but nothing compared to what it will receive now, if the two men in custody are charged with the sniper murders. The facility, which is British owned, had been under investigation by Scotland Yard.
posted by raysmj at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by raysmj at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2002
Most likely VA will get it. The reason being the VA governor has allready expressed a vocal interest in trying the case since they have stronger punishment laws. VA wants them bad. It's a political issue and egos are involved but the partys may all agree on the best solution. If there was ever a case for the death penalty this would be it.
posted by stbalbach at 8:29 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by stbalbach at 8:29 AM on October 24, 2002
I for one welcome our NewsFilter overlords.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:33 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:33 AM on October 24, 2002
So with 5 out of the 13 shootings happening in VA, does that mean the other 8 don't get prosecuted? Or can VA charge them with all 13? Or can they take him (them?) to court in both states? Any one know how that works?
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:36 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 8:36 AM on October 24, 2002
Damn, DevilsA, you beat me to it . . . still . . .
I for one welcome our new Post Nazi overlords.
posted by gompa at 8:39 AM on October 24, 2002
I for one welcome our new Post Nazi overlords.
posted by gompa at 8:39 AM on October 24, 2002
Depends. Since the sniper is likely to receive life (or worse) for each offense, the charges may be dropped for the murders in the "other" state. Either way it probably won't matter. But in cases where the offender would merit shorter terms, he will be tried in each state for each offense. Jail time may be worked out in agreement with prosecutors from each state, or the convict will serve consecutive sentences in either facility.
McVeigh for example was only convicted of 5 or so murders because he was tried in federal court. There was no trial for the civilian casualties.
posted by PrinceValium at 8:42 AM on October 24, 2002
McVeigh for example was only convicted of 5 or so murders because he was tried in federal court. There was no trial for the civilian casualties.
posted by PrinceValium at 8:42 AM on October 24, 2002
Or can they take him (them?) to court in both states? Any one know how that works?
Technically they could try him (them) in every jurisdiction where he's committed a crime, but I think they'll probably work out some deal to combine jurisdiction and try him in the biggest courthouse with the most room for cameras in the state with the most lenient death-by-torture laws.
posted by Ty Webb at 8:52 AM on October 24, 2002
Technically they could try him (them) in every jurisdiction where he's committed a crime, but I think they'll probably work out some deal to combine jurisdiction and try him in the biggest courthouse with the most room for cameras in the state with the most lenient death-by-torture laws.
posted by Ty Webb at 8:52 AM on October 24, 2002
the state with the most lenient death-by-torture laws
Think about this for just a moment. Where would you least like to spend the rest of your life in prison? (Remember, one of them is 17 years old.)
a) Maryland
b) Virginia
c) Some federal condo
d) Alabama
posted by mischief at 8:56 AM on October 24, 2002
Think about this for just a moment. Where would you least like to spend the rest of your life in prison? (Remember, one of them is 17 years old.)
a) Maryland
b) Virginia
c) Some federal condo
d) Alabama
posted by mischief at 8:56 AM on October 24, 2002
A co-worker of mine used to work for the federal prison system. She said that when/if the sniper was sent to prison he'd have a very bad time of it within the system. People who shoot at children are considered the lowest of the low in that subculture. Even rapists think as much.
So, maybe a life sentence would be a fate worse than death.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 9:10 AM on October 24, 2002
So, maybe a life sentence would be a fate worse than death.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 9:10 AM on October 24, 2002
Since they were caught in Maryland, I think they would be tried there first.
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 9:10 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by Taken Outtacontext at 9:10 AM on October 24, 2002
a3matrix: Let me see if I understand your point. If breaking news is largely speculative, we should wait to talk about it on Metafilter until the details are fully reported. But if the details are fully reported, we should not talk about it on Metafilter because we can read about it on a news site.
posted by rcade at 9:13 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by rcade at 9:13 AM on October 24, 2002
somehow i have a feeling that they have the wrong guys, i guess we would have to wait and see if more sniper attacks will occure....
posted by bureaustyle at 9:26 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by bureaustyle at 9:26 AM on October 24, 2002
In a phone call, the sniper told police to investigate a Montgomery, Ala., shooting that showed he meant business. They did, and fingerprints at the scene led them to the two suspects, who were found this morning sleeping at a rest stop in Northern Maryland and had a .223-caliber rifle in their car. Sure seems like the right guys at this point.
posted by rcade at 9:36 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by rcade at 9:36 AM on October 24, 2002
rcade: no, this is what a3matrix said:
If the police have got the right people, I think an interesting post(s) would be how the pieces of this puzzle came together. House in Tacoma, murders in Alabama, car with NJ plates, why they picked the DC metro as a target.
The post investigation roundup is more what I would expect to find here on mefi, not the ongoing updates.
Clear enough imho.
posted by ginz at 9:42 AM on October 24, 2002
If the police have got the right people, I think an interesting post(s) would be how the pieces of this puzzle came together. House in Tacoma, murders in Alabama, car with NJ plates, why they picked the DC metro as a target.
The post investigation roundup is more what I would expect to find here on mefi, not the ongoing updates.
Clear enough imho.
posted by ginz at 9:42 AM on October 24, 2002
Don't mean to be a nit pick but....
The "sniper" told the police to "ask the people of Montgomery" if he means business... He never said Alabama...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 9:45 AM on October 24, 2002
The "sniper" told the police to "ask the people of Montgomery" if he means business... He never said Alabama...
posted by Steve_at_Linnwood at 9:45 AM on October 24, 2002
"The key break, authorities said, was a phone call to the sniper task force tip line suggesting investigators check out a liquor store robbery in "Montgomery." The caller claimed credit for both the robbery and the sniper shootings, officials said."
Good point, SaL, and that is one problem we can solve here as we each read the various news sources and put together the whole puzzle.
posted by mischief at 9:56 AM on October 24, 2002
Good point, SaL, and that is one problem we can solve here as we each read the various news sources and put together the whole puzzle.
posted by mischief at 9:56 AM on October 24, 2002
Obligatory disclaimer: these guys might be completely innocent, and what follows is some completely off-the-wall suppositions.
One: if these guys *are* guilty, it's one for the books. Black serial murderers are not unknown, but are very rare.
Two: If the elder man is indeed a Muslim, much will be made of the fact. However, police will likely play it down, and with good reason -- there seems to be little real religious motivation behind the shootings. (Why ask for a $10 million ransom otherwise?)
Three: There will be a renewed hue and cry to ban ownership of "assault weapons". A Bushmaster .223 is the alleged weapon found in the trunk of the car (the link goes to an M-15 weapon that is the probable model of the rifle, but I don't know for sure).
Four: Anyone want to take bets on whether Jesse Jackson and/or Louis Farrakhan will get involved in the trial?
posted by mrmanley at 10:16 AM on October 24, 2002
One: if these guys *are* guilty, it's one for the books. Black serial murderers are not unknown, but are very rare.
Two: If the elder man is indeed a Muslim, much will be made of the fact. However, police will likely play it down, and with good reason -- there seems to be little real religious motivation behind the shootings. (Why ask for a $10 million ransom otherwise?)
Three: There will be a renewed hue and cry to ban ownership of "assault weapons". A Bushmaster .223 is the alleged weapon found in the trunk of the car (the link goes to an M-15 weapon that is the probable model of the rifle, but I don't know for sure).
Four: Anyone want to take bets on whether Jesse Jackson and/or Louis Farrakhan will get involved in the trial?
posted by mrmanley at 10:16 AM on October 24, 2002
Thank you ginz.
rcade: I was just saying that there tons of sites for news and I didn't think that it was necessary to post current news here, as it gets posted on numerous other sites.
It has been brought up and discussed in the past, that mefi is not a news portal.
But I guess that was the old days, you know, when we could still appreciate pancakes and such.
Oh well, I am moving on now.
posted by a3matrix at 10:35 AM on October 24, 2002
rcade: I was just saying that there tons of sites for news and I didn't think that it was necessary to post current news here, as it gets posted on numerous other sites.
It has been brought up and discussed in the past, that mefi is not a news portal.
But I guess that was the old days, you know, when we could still appreciate pancakes and such.
Oh well, I am moving on now.
posted by a3matrix at 10:35 AM on October 24, 2002
"I am God" doesn't sound very Muslim to me. Am I wrong?
posted by oissubke at 11:05 AM on October 24, 2002
posted by oissubke at 11:05 AM on October 24, 2002
It really looks like they got the guys at this point. From this link:
"A source also told CNN that the car -- a blue 1990 Chevrolet Caprice -- had been modified with a hole bored in the trunk, which could allow someone to shoot from inside the vehicle. The rifle was found behind a seat."
This would explain why no one ever sees him.
Yes, yes - Newsfilter...... My bad.
posted by y6y6y6 at 11:33 AM on October 24, 2002
"A source also told CNN that the car -- a blue 1990 Chevrolet Caprice -- had been modified with a hole bored in the trunk, which could allow someone to shoot from inside the vehicle. The rifle was found behind a seat."
This would explain why no one ever sees him.
Yes, yes - Newsfilter...... My bad.
posted by y6y6y6 at 11:33 AM on October 24, 2002
I think an interesting post(s) would be how the pieces of this puzzle came together
To be honest, I'm getting the clear impression that the puzzle was put together piece by piece for the authorities by the perpetrator himself (or perhaps themselves), and all leads were provided by no one else but the perp(s).
And to take it further, I'm also getting the clear impression that he/they wanted to be caught, though not easily caught, several victims ago. Perhaps he/they were seeking police-assisted suicide, but wanted to thumb his/their nose at the massive amounts of law enforcement brought in to investigate first?
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:00 PM on October 24, 2002
To be honest, I'm getting the clear impression that the puzzle was put together piece by piece for the authorities by the perpetrator himself (or perhaps themselves), and all leads were provided by no one else but the perp(s).
And to take it further, I'm also getting the clear impression that he/they wanted to be caught, though not easily caught, several victims ago. Perhaps he/they were seeking police-assisted suicide, but wanted to thumb his/their nose at the massive amounts of law enforcement brought in to investigate first?
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:00 PM on October 24, 2002
oissubke: It's not very Muslim, in fact it's total heresy, and yet it's a part of Muslim tradition through Sufism, in which the idea of God entering and filling you so that you have a feeling of oneness can get dangerously (in the orthodox view) close to simple identification with God. The classic case is al-Hallaj (known in Sufi tradition as Mansur), who was crucified and tortured to death in Baghdad in 922 (after a dozen or so years in prison) for saying "Ana al-Haqq" 'I am the Truth (i.e., God)"; Rumi analyzed this as follows:
posted by languagehat at 12:06 PM on October 24, 2002
When Hallaj's love for God reached its utmost limit, he became his own enemy and naughted himself. He said, "I am God," that is, "I have been annihilated; God remains, nothing else." This is extreme humility and the utmost limit of servanthood. It means, "He alone is." To make a false claim and to be proud is to say. "Thou art God and I am the servant." For in this way you are affirming your own existence, and duality is the necessary result... Hence God said, "I am God." Other than He, nothing else existed. Hallaj had been annihilated, so those were the words of God.There's a discussion of tawhid (oneness, interpreted as monotheism) and Sufism from an orthodox point of view here.
posted by languagehat at 12:06 PM on October 24, 2002
"I am God" doesn't sound very Muslim to me. Am I wrong?
In the past uttering that phrase has been punishable by death. The most famous person to have said made that statment was the Sufi mystic Al Hallaj who was found guilty of heresy. What he said was that it is more blasphemous to declare onself seperate from God because that implies that somehow God is limited. A decent explantion of what he meant can be found here:
In the past uttering that phrase has been punishable by death. The most famous person to have said made that statment was the Sufi mystic Al Hallaj who was found guilty of heresy. What he said was that it is more blasphemous to declare onself seperate from God because that implies that somehow God is limited. A decent explantion of what he meant can be found here:
"Of course, saying that "I am God" doesn’t go down well in most cultures. When the German mystic Meister Eckhart said "I am God" or "I and God are One," the Vatican told him to recant. You can say you have the experience of God but not that you are God. But when the mystic says "I am God", they are not talking of the individual self, not the ego which identifies itself with things like "I am Peter Russell, I am British, I am male, I think these thoughts, etc., etc.". What they are really saying is that the pure self, the most fundamental level of our being, is God. In other words, God is consciousness -- not consciousness of any particular thing, but the very faculty of consciousness that is present in all things. As Ramana Maharshi said, "I Am is the name of God. God is none other than the self". Or, in the words of a Sufi mystic, "When thou knowest thine own existence, then thou knowest God"."posted by euphorb at 12:08 PM on October 24, 2002
Anyone want to take bets on whether Jesse Jackson and/or Louis Farrakhan will get involved in the trial?
are you suggesting that these men will somehow defend the suspects? if so, i'll take that bet (that they won't).
posted by danOstuporStar at 12:33 PM on October 24, 2002
are you suggesting that these men will somehow defend the suspects? if so, i'll take that bet (that they won't).
posted by danOstuporStar at 12:33 PM on October 24, 2002
The Smoking Gun just released a ton of documents on the guy, including some police mugshots from years ago.
posted by mathowie at 1:07 PM on October 24, 2002
posted by mathowie at 1:07 PM on October 24, 2002
euphorb: Wow, another Hallaj fan! We even used the same link. (I've got the book, by the way, and it's pretty good.)
posted by languagehat at 1:44 PM on October 24, 2002
posted by languagehat at 1:44 PM on October 24, 2002
Four: Anyone want to take bets on whether Jesse Jackson and/or Louis Farrakhan will get involved in the trial?
Man, that is creepy.
iconomy's Eminem impression and languagehat and euphorb's Hallaj dissertations, on the other hand, get the golden palm from me. What a bunch of hipsters.
posted by y2karl at 2:19 PM on October 24, 2002
Man, that is creepy.
iconomy's Eminem impression and languagehat and euphorb's Hallaj dissertations, on the other hand, get the golden palm from me. What a bunch of hipsters.
posted by y2karl at 2:19 PM on October 24, 2002
Oissubke: "I am God" doesn't sound very Muslim to me. Am I wrong?
This, and especially the tarot card, made me skeptical that this would turn out to be an Al Qaeda operation. Kudos to Euphorb & Languagehat for fascinating info on the subject, but I doubt that the shooters are evil genius experts in 10th century Sufi theology; more likely just losers trying for a Jules Winnfield moment: "I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before you popped a cap in his ass."
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 2:37 PM on October 24, 2002
This, and especially the tarot card, made me skeptical that this would turn out to be an Al Qaeda operation. Kudos to Euphorb & Languagehat for fascinating info on the subject, but I doubt that the shooters are evil genius experts in 10th century Sufi theology; more likely just losers trying for a Jules Winnfield moment: "I thought it was just a cold-blooded thing to say to a motherfucker before you popped a cap in his ass."
posted by Hieronymous Coward at 2:37 PM on October 24, 2002
Two men suspected in the series of sniper shootings in the Washington DC area are being arraigned Thursday at a federal court in Baltimore, Maryland.
Well look who called it.
**dances a jig**
posted by Ufez Jones at 3:07 PM on October 24, 2002
Well look who called it.
**dances a jig**
posted by Ufez Jones at 3:07 PM on October 24, 2002
I knew two guys in high school whose father was this wacked out, spiteful dude with a bad drug habit and a propensity for violence against his sons and former wife. He also professed to be Muslim. I wouldn't be too suprised if he happened to use the phrase 'I am God' on occasion.
posted by shoos at 3:35 PM on October 24, 2002
posted by shoos at 3:35 PM on October 24, 2002
Now that the friendly folks at al qaeda know how easy it is for two guys and a cheap rifle to terrorize a region of the country, how long do you think it'll be before they send some "martyrs" down the local Big 5 to stock up?
posted by electro at 3:51 PM on October 24, 2002
posted by electro at 3:51 PM on October 24, 2002
What is this "step-son" business? There appears to be no biological relationship.
They sure look awful cozy with each other in the photo on this couch. Could the sniper be going from conventional wisdom's predicted angry white male to the captured anti-American muslim pederast complete with illegal alien boytoy?
posted by paleocon at 5:57 PM on October 24, 2002
They sure look awful cozy with each other in the photo on this couch. Could the sniper be going from conventional wisdom's predicted angry white male to the captured anti-American muslim pederast complete with illegal alien boytoy?
posted by paleocon at 5:57 PM on October 24, 2002
That Chevy Caprice this scum had seems straight out of the Phil Alderiso play book.
This, and especially the tarot card, made me skeptical that this would turn out to be an Al Qaeda operation
Al qaedia has trained their elite killer to appear western, act Western etc.
Have you considered that the "I am God" statement refers to the death card itself, either the image or the cards "meaning". Akin to "I have become death, destroyer of worlds"
more likely just losers trying for a Jules infield moment:
more like Charles Whitman meets Carlos the Jackal.
Louis Farrakhan will get involved in the trial? Hmmm.
what struck me was this guys fascination with the sniper ideology or even catch phrases. for example
"One Shot, one kill" well, an elite sniper may adhere to this 'code', if at all possible, the sniper will take a second shot or 'kill shot'. It seems this scum stuck to one shot only, perhaps trying to adhere to this 'code'. A professional sniper would be able to get off another shot. this is of course relevant on trajectory on target allocation.
so this scum called up and gave a few clues? what is his motivation for this? Does he think that he will/wants to be caught? or did he think that the investigators where amateurs. If they are 'amateurs' why did he get caught.
perhaps this explains the confusion surrounding the last few days media circus.
To be honest, I'm getting the clear impression that the puzzle was put together piece by piece for the authorities by the perpetrator himself
interchange 'for' with 'by'
"that the puzzle was put together piece by piece by the authorities for the perpetrator himself"
perhaps 'snipe hunt' is somewhat relative.
posted by clavdivs at 6:01 PM on October 24, 2002
This, and especially the tarot card, made me skeptical that this would turn out to be an Al Qaeda operation
Al qaedia has trained their elite killer to appear western, act Western etc.
Have you considered that the "I am God" statement refers to the death card itself, either the image or the cards "meaning". Akin to "I have become death, destroyer of worlds"
more likely just losers trying for a Jules infield moment:
more like Charles Whitman meets Carlos the Jackal.
Louis Farrakhan will get involved in the trial? Hmmm.
what struck me was this guys fascination with the sniper ideology or even catch phrases. for example
"One Shot, one kill" well, an elite sniper may adhere to this 'code', if at all possible, the sniper will take a second shot or 'kill shot'. It seems this scum stuck to one shot only, perhaps trying to adhere to this 'code'. A professional sniper would be able to get off another shot. this is of course relevant on trajectory on target allocation.
so this scum called up and gave a few clues? what is his motivation for this? Does he think that he will/wants to be caught? or did he think that the investigators where amateurs. If they are 'amateurs' why did he get caught.
perhaps this explains the confusion surrounding the last few days media circus.
To be honest, I'm getting the clear impression that the puzzle was put together piece by piece for the authorities by the perpetrator himself
interchange 'for' with 'by'
"that the puzzle was put together piece by piece by the authorities for the perpetrator himself"
perhaps 'snipe hunt' is somewhat relative.
posted by clavdivs at 6:01 PM on October 24, 2002
Just my opinion - This guy doesn't have an Al Queada connection or that would have come out by now. But he might have been sympathetic to, and acting in support of, their cause. It seems like he killed a lot of people before he started asking for money. And those plans seem laughable compared to the planning done for the actual shootings.
I just don't think his original motivation was money.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:40 PM on October 24, 2002
I just don't think his original motivation was money.
posted by y6y6y6 at 6:40 PM on October 24, 2002
Once you learn to think of yourself as a target, the way many people in Maryland, Virginia and the District of Columbia have done, you don't soon get out of the habit of feeling like one. The mere interruption of daily life will have a psychological impact, especially on children, that the resumption of normal schedules won't necessarily cure. If ever there were a time for people to pour out of their houses into the middle of the block, to stand talking in parking lots and to take their time in public places, this is it. A basic confidence in the safety of open spaces needs to be re-established.
and this, too--
We instinctively reject the idea that a man with no more than average physical or emotional powers could claim that kind of control over life and death.
Ain't that the truth.
posted by y2karl at 9:00 PM on October 24, 2002
and this, too--
We instinctively reject the idea that a man with no more than average physical or emotional powers could claim that kind of control over life and death.
Ain't that the truth.
posted by y2karl at 9:00 PM on October 24, 2002
just throwing out an idea here, but what if the non-"successful" shots weren't fired by Muhammad but by the kid?
posted by dobbs at 9:19 PM on October 24, 2002
posted by dobbs at 9:19 PM on October 24, 2002
I like this: Truck Driver Modest About Sniper Capture
Perhaps it's time to brush off that CB lingo, whachyathank?,, c'mon?
posted by y2karl at 9:42 PM on October 24, 2002
Perhaps it's time to brush off that CB lingo, whachyathank?,, c'mon?
posted by y2karl at 9:42 PM on October 24, 2002
What is this "step-son" business? There appears to be no biological relationship.
The kid could be the biological son of one of Muhammad's ex-wives.
I don't think this has anything to do with al Qaeda, or ransom. Muhammad has a history of violence and had a custody dispute with his most recent ex-wife within the last year or so, and she lives near Montgomery County. History of violence + stressors = shooting spree.
And as far as I can tell, the one-shot one-kill stuff is all media/expert speculation (granted, speculation based on a real sniper code). I haven't seen anything from the sniper(s) that says they adhere to this code.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:51 PM on October 24, 2002
Great story on the gun-training-in-Alabama connection, which has since been discounted by law enforcement and which just suddenly stopped being mentioned in news reports. The Alabama locale was mobbed by reporters, leaving the police chief of Marion, AL wondering what on Earth was going on. Pretty telling story, in regard to sniper coverage.
posted by raysmj at 10:32 AM on October 25, 2002
posted by raysmj at 10:32 AM on October 25, 2002
mr manley, Farrakhan will probably try to distance himself from John Allen Muhammed. To wit:
"Muhammad changed his name last year from John Allen Williams, years after he converted to Islam, investigators told the Seattle Times. He also had helped provide security for Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" in Washington, D.C."
posted by whatnot at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2002
"Muhammad changed his name last year from John Allen Williams, years after he converted to Islam, investigators told the Seattle Times. He also had helped provide security for Nation of Islam Minister Louis Farrakhan's "Million Man March" in Washington, D.C."
posted by whatnot at 11:12 AM on October 25, 2002
This is somewhat interesting - they've released the letter that the killer left for the police. CNN.com, via Fark.
posted by UKnowForKids at 9:25 AM on October 26, 2002
posted by UKnowForKids at 9:25 AM on October 26, 2002
material witness connected to sniper was arrested in Flint, MI. today. He apparently was a co-owner of the Chevy ...developing.
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on October 26, 2002
posted by clavdivs at 2:47 PM on October 26, 2002
This bulletin includes only the bits and pieces of incongruous information that have emerged thus far through various avenues of the media. While there is far more that has yet to be discovered, it is already clear that there is much more to this story than what has been
presented to the American people...
So let's execute the bastard. We don't even need to bother with a trial. The sooner the better. Then we can all get on with our lives.
What is wrong with this picture?
Interesting to note that The Bull's Eye gun store has no records for the sale of the Bushmaster Muhammad bought there, out of 350 other unaccounted for guns--up from 150 in 1999. Federal law requires gun dealers to report stolen or missing weapons within 48 hours. 150 guns went mssing in 1999 and they weren't shut down. The mind reels...
posted by y2karl at 8:24 PM on November 2, 2002
presented to the American people...
So let's execute the bastard. We don't even need to bother with a trial. The sooner the better. Then we can all get on with our lives.
What is wrong with this picture?
Interesting to note that The Bull's Eye gun store has no records for the sale of the Bushmaster Muhammad bought there, out of 350 other unaccounted for guns--up from 150 in 1999. Federal law requires gun dealers to report stolen or missing weapons within 48 hours. 150 guns went mssing in 1999 and they weren't shut down. The mind reels...
posted by y2karl at 8:24 PM on November 2, 2002
funny, the shooters car was bought at a place called "Sure Shot Motors" of some other weird name.
Federal law requires gun dealers to report stolen or missing weapons within 48 hours. 150 guns went mssing in 1999 and they weren't shut down. The mind reels...
what reels karl, the mind. Heres a scenario. In rural michigan last week, two thugs walked into a gun shop and started shooting, these scum killed the owner and wounded the son of the owner. They took weapons and cash. It was captured on video. I guess this gun shop is "shut down" .do more digging then if you cant find easy answers.
Your spooky link, Sheauga, should not surprise me. Do you know about Chevy caprices? do you know the weapons trade? F$%# no. do you support these views or are you just...linking.
posted by clavdivs at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2002
Federal law requires gun dealers to report stolen or missing weapons within 48 hours. 150 guns went mssing in 1999 and they weren't shut down. The mind reels...
what reels karl, the mind. Heres a scenario. In rural michigan last week, two thugs walked into a gun shop and started shooting, these scum killed the owner and wounded the son of the owner. They took weapons and cash. It was captured on video. I guess this gun shop is "shut down" .do more digging then if you cant find easy answers.
Your spooky link, Sheauga, should not surprise me. Do you know about Chevy caprices? do you know the weapons trade? F$%# no. do you support these views or are you just...linking.
posted by clavdivs at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2002
Zillions of people making links produces results that spook me too, clavdivs. I get as flipped out by serial killer wierdos and horrible stuff as you do, and just in case it makes you feel any better, I think the sheer volume of off-the-wall conspiracies on the web is enough to set anyone's hair on edge. How many xymphora sites attempting to "connect the dots" are a sign of mental illness and a potential snap case? Nobody knows for sure. Better to post this stuff someplace that well informed people can take a look at it, than to see it websurfing and pass it by ...
posted by sheauga at 11:08 AM on November 3, 2002
posted by sheauga at 11:08 AM on November 3, 2002
This is a bit more informative: How The Snipers Bonded.
posted by y2karl at 12:08 PM on November 3, 2002
posted by y2karl at 12:08 PM on November 3, 2002
yes, the link was informative Karl.
So let's execute the bastard. We don't even need to bother with a trial. The sooner the better. Then we can all get on with our lives
That describes "whats wrong with this picture" perfectly.
posted by clavdivs at 2:08 PM on November 3, 2002
So let's execute the bastard. We don't even need to bother with a trial. The sooner the better. Then we can all get on with our lives
That describes "whats wrong with this picture" perfectly.
posted by clavdivs at 2:08 PM on November 3, 2002
The night of Oct. 23, when John Muhammad's picture flashed on television in the hours before his arrest, her emotions took over.
"Oh my God, it's him," she said. "He found me!"
Then she moved closer to the screen and stared. "John, what happened to you?"
The answer to that question, according to Mildred Muhammad, is a complex, somewhat unknowable tale of transformation from a loving husband to an angry, controlling man. Her account, provided in a four-hour interview with The Washington Post, offers the most textured and detailed portrait available of the man prosecutors believe is behind 21 shootings in six states and the District of Columbia.
posted by LinusMines at 9:19 AM on November 8, 2002
"Oh my God, it's him," she said. "He found me!"
Then she moved closer to the screen and stared. "John, what happened to you?"
The answer to that question, according to Mildred Muhammad, is a complex, somewhat unknowable tale of transformation from a loving husband to an angry, controlling man. Her account, provided in a four-hour interview with The Washington Post, offers the most textured and detailed portrait available of the man prosecutors believe is behind 21 shootings in six states and the District of Columbia.
posted by LinusMines at 9:19 AM on November 8, 2002
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
But thanks for pointing it out ...
posted by walrus at 3:36 AM on October 24, 2002