The Murder of Emmett Till
January 9, 2003 1:18 AM Subscribe
Emmett just barely got on that train to Mississippi. We could hear the whistle blowing. As he was running up the steps, I said, 'Bo,'--that's what I called him--'you didn't kiss me. How do I know I'll ever see you again?' He turned around and said, 'Oh, Mama.' Gently scolding me. He ran down those steps and gave me a kiss. As he turned to go up the steps again, he pulled his watch off and said, 'Take this, I won't need it.' I said, 'What about your ring?' He was wearing his father's ring for the first time. He said, 'I'm going to show this to my friends.' That's how we were able to identify him, by that ring. I think it was a Mason's ring.
Mamie Till-Mobley, 81, who wanted the world to see her teenage son's disfigured face after his slaying in Mississippi in 1955 and who became a figure in the civil rights movement, died of a heart ailment Jan. 6 at a hospital in Chicago. She had kidney failure.
The impact of the Emmett Till case on black America was even greater than that of the Brown decision. On January 20, 2003, The American Experience will present, on PBS, The Murder of Emmett Till. (Continued Inside)
Mamie Till-Mobley, 81, who wanted the world to see her teenage son's disfigured face after his slaying in Mississippi in 1955 and who became a figure in the civil rights movement, died of a heart ailment Jan. 6 at a hospital in Chicago. She had kidney failure.
The impact of the Emmett Till case on black America was even greater than that of the Brown decision. On January 20, 2003, The American Experience will present, on PBS, The Murder of Emmett Till. (Continued Inside)
But still after all these years we get stories of racist attacks, guys getting dragged down the road off of some hick's bumper, or the recent story about the black guy who got his head smashed in by youths that MeFi linked to recently. What has America learnt?
Not to forget other forms of violence and hatred, such as Matthew Shepard who was tied to a fence in Wyoming and pistol whipped to death for simply being gay. (Which, ironically, resulted in one of Elton John's best songs)
posted by wackybrit at 1:56 AM on January 9, 2003
Not to forget other forms of violence and hatred, such as Matthew Shepard who was tied to a fence in Wyoming and pistol whipped to death for simply being gay. (Which, ironically, resulted in one of Elton John's best songs)
posted by wackybrit at 1:56 AM on January 9, 2003
I don't think that any country can consider it's residents truly tollerant of people unlike themselves in any way (no matter how hard any individual may try), but why is it that America seems to do so badly at it?
Yes, in the UK gay kids get picked on and a white guy may feel as uncomfortable in a black area as a black guy in a white area, but we don't get shit like this, and I don't think (not think) we've ever had anything like this bad. I'd love to know why this is.
Obviously the black/white thing can be traced (however accurately) to slavery and economic backgrounds, but why the gay thing?
posted by twine42 at 2:53 AM on January 9, 2003
Yes, in the UK gay kids get picked on and a white guy may feel as uncomfortable in a black area as a black guy in a white area, but we don't get shit like this, and I don't think (not think) we've ever had anything like this bad. I'd love to know why this is.
Obviously the black/white thing can be traced (however accurately) to slavery and economic backgrounds, but why the gay thing?
posted by twine42 at 2:53 AM on January 9, 2003
Oh, I forgot to say, I guess a part of the race thing might be that the UK invited most of it's coloured population into the Uk after WW2 when we had no men left to run things...
posted by twine42 at 2:55 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by twine42 at 2:55 AM on January 9, 2003
BTW, my America comment was not to imply my own country has a flawless record. It's just that America is the topic here.
Many Brits are extremely racist, IMHO, probably more so than the 'average' American. I live in one of the UK's largest counties, and I've seen perhaps two black people here in three years. Small town people are scared of the 'immigrant invasion' and are pretty heated up about it. I grew up in London, so black, brown, white, orange, it's all the same to me.
That said, we don't have the high profile racist cases over here. Europeans can talk and make people feel bad, but they don't generally tie them up to pick up trucks, or pistol whip them. Again, different culture. I think that's why we have less violent racial crime here.. it's just not in our character.
but why the gay thing?
That's a great question, and I can't put forward any answers. The common belief is that it's caused by peoples' insecurities by their own sexuality, but that sounds like hog-wash to me.
I have respect for gay people, and treat no-one any differently, but underneath I still feel a bit funny about the idea. The only reason I can think of is that gay people do things that I, personally, would find disgusting to do. After all, this is why people who don't even have kids can get so angry about pedophiles.. they do things that we find disgusting. The idea of gay sex repulses me (even though I believe in the right to do it if you want) so perhaps that's where my underlying feelings stem from.
twine42: The song, btw, is 'American Triangle' from the 'Songs from the West Coast' album.
posted by wackybrit at 4:55 AM on January 9, 2003
Many Brits are extremely racist, IMHO, probably more so than the 'average' American. I live in one of the UK's largest counties, and I've seen perhaps two black people here in three years. Small town people are scared of the 'immigrant invasion' and are pretty heated up about it. I grew up in London, so black, brown, white, orange, it's all the same to me.
That said, we don't have the high profile racist cases over here. Europeans can talk and make people feel bad, but they don't generally tie them up to pick up trucks, or pistol whip them. Again, different culture. I think that's why we have less violent racial crime here.. it's just not in our character.
but why the gay thing?
That's a great question, and I can't put forward any answers. The common belief is that it's caused by peoples' insecurities by their own sexuality, but that sounds like hog-wash to me.
I have respect for gay people, and treat no-one any differently, but underneath I still feel a bit funny about the idea. The only reason I can think of is that gay people do things that I, personally, would find disgusting to do. After all, this is why people who don't even have kids can get so angry about pedophiles.. they do things that we find disgusting. The idea of gay sex repulses me (even though I believe in the right to do it if you want) so perhaps that's where my underlying feelings stem from.
twine42: The song, btw, is 'American Triangle' from the 'Songs from the West Coast' album.
posted by wackybrit at 4:55 AM on January 9, 2003
Flavor of the month. By 2004, how many will remember the Till family who did not know them before 2003?
posted by mischief at 5:05 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by mischief at 5:05 AM on January 9, 2003
The term "hate crime" is a meaningless abomination, and an affront to justice and common sense
This is a contextual fugue. Although the person who said that was sparklingly correct. Oh, it was me.
I had a thread deleted for doing exactly what you're doing now, y2karl, and that is: continuing and advancing a particular argumentative point of view in a discussion by making a front page post about it, and I don't think it's necessary or fair. The conversation continues. It was yesterday, after all.
What you are doing now sir, is called race-baiting. Harry Belafonte spewed the same vengeful nastiness toward Colin Powell, and Powell's response was:
“I’m serving my nation,” Powell said. “I’m serving this president, my president, our president. I'm very happy to do so. Harry has every right to attack my politics... But we have advanced in this nation where you shouldn't have to rest it on this kind of reference that should have been left in the past.”
I think what you've started here is underhanded, petty, and disappointing, y2karl, and I am embarrased for you.
posted by hama7 at 5:09 AM on January 9, 2003
This is a contextual fugue. Although the person who said that was sparklingly correct. Oh, it was me.
I had a thread deleted for doing exactly what you're doing now, y2karl, and that is: continuing and advancing a particular argumentative point of view in a discussion by making a front page post about it, and I don't think it's necessary or fair. The conversation continues. It was yesterday, after all.
What you are doing now sir, is called race-baiting. Harry Belafonte spewed the same vengeful nastiness toward Colin Powell, and Powell's response was:
“I’m serving my nation,” Powell said. “I’m serving this president, my president, our president. I'm very happy to do so. Harry has every right to attack my politics... But we have advanced in this nation where you shouldn't have to rest it on this kind of reference that should have been left in the past.”
I think what you've started here is underhanded, petty, and disappointing, y2karl, and I am embarrased for you.
posted by hama7 at 5:09 AM on January 9, 2003
Flavor of the month. By 2004, how many will remember the Till family who did not know them before 2003?
Good point. Let's all forget about it then. Thank you once again for trolling on about how hopeless life is. Perhaps you've forgotten what happens when people don't know their history. More to the point, thank you y2karl for another great post.
posted by yerfatma at 5:39 AM on January 9, 2003
Good point. Let's all forget about it then. Thank you once again for trolling on about how hopeless life is. Perhaps you've forgotten what happens when people don't know their history. More to the point, thank you y2karl for another great post.
posted by yerfatma at 5:39 AM on January 9, 2003
Flavor of the month. By 2004, how many will remember the Till family who did not know them before 2003?
Well I will now, and so will you - even if you do bracket the Till families courage as a passing fad (troll). Call me a softy but I've always considered fighting racism more than a flavour of the month.
posted by niceness at 6:04 AM on January 9, 2003
Well I will now, and so will you - even if you do bracket the Till families courage as a passing fad (troll). Call me a softy but I've always considered fighting racism more than a flavour of the month.
posted by niceness at 6:04 AM on January 9, 2003
hama7, y2karl is just presenting a counterpoint to your assertion, which he has every right to do and is part of what this site is all about.
I don't disagree that it seems like a lot of American's of all races have a fascination with the details of racism that borders on the pornographic. But at the same time let's not turn a remembrance of a true atrocity, into a mudslinging fest.
posted by jonmc at 6:10 AM on January 9, 2003
I don't disagree that it seems like a lot of American's of all races have a fascination with the details of racism that borders on the pornographic. But at the same time let's not turn a remembrance of a true atrocity, into a mudslinging fest.
posted by jonmc at 6:10 AM on January 9, 2003
I think what you've started here is underhanded, petty, and disappointing, y2karl, and I am embarrased for you.
Troll.
posted by The Michael The at 6:14 AM on January 9, 2003
Troll.
posted by The Michael The at 6:14 AM on January 9, 2003
and I am embarrased for you.
Hama7, even your insults are pure rhetoric.
posted by niceness at 6:20 AM on January 9, 2003
Hama7, even your insults are pure rhetoric.
posted by niceness at 6:20 AM on January 9, 2003
so will you
Doubtful, since I cannot even tell you who played the SuperBowl last year, let alone who won, and I watched the entire first half.
Ever hear of celebrity Q factor? It is a measure of the public's recognition of names and faces. If anything, the Till family got one more quarter hour of fame, a blip on the screen, a momentary spike of Q.
Dredging up old cases like this one, particularly one in which the suspects have already been tried and acquitted, will make no difference in eliminating racism, short of preaching to the choir. The resources would have been far better spent pursuing other methods.
posted by mischief at 6:22 AM on January 9, 2003
Doubtful, since I cannot even tell you who played the SuperBowl last year, let alone who won, and I watched the entire first half.
Ever hear of celebrity Q factor? It is a measure of the public's recognition of names and faces. If anything, the Till family got one more quarter hour of fame, a blip on the screen, a momentary spike of Q.
Dredging up old cases like this one, particularly one in which the suspects have already been tried and acquitted, will make no difference in eliminating racism, short of preaching to the choir. The resources would have been far better spent pursuing other methods.
posted by mischief at 6:22 AM on January 9, 2003
y2karl: Of course, that didn't stop Bob from later writing a song like Hurricane, which is pretty much in the same vein.
posted by raysmj at 6:23 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by raysmj at 6:23 AM on January 9, 2003
Just to throw a couple cents in on the "'hate crime' is a meaningless abomination, and an affront to justice and common sense" argument...
There are a couple of levels to this argument that I've gone through. The first was to think that racism is bad, so killing someone because of their race is bigotry run amok, and should be heavily punished.
Then I thought, well, murder is the crime here, not racism. We should de-emphasize the importance of race in the decision to murder because it takes the strength away from the real point, which is that people simply shouldn't be killing each other, period. Playing the race card is just a petty way of gaining publicity, so that one murder will stand out more in the news than the countless others that were based on anger, or jealousy, or psychosis. Why are they any less important?
Then I thought to what first year law students are taught, and that is the importance of motivation. Premeditation to kill someone is always more harshly punished than crimes of passion. And the message you send by making hate crimes more "bad" than a simple crime of passion has a better effect on society -- I may kill a guy who's banging my wife, but my anger is towards him specifically, not a race in general.
But the more I think about it, the less I support this idea. In the end, it's not illegal to hate someone, or even a race of people. You can hate them negro's and fag's all you want in the great country of ours, just as long as you don't go commiting crimes against them. And it's the crime that's important. Motivation is still important, but not as much as some people might like to think. Planning the murder of someone is worse than accidentally hitting them with your car, I recognize that; mental illness or retardation where the suspect does not understand the consequences of their actions can also be forgivable. But penalizing someone more because we as a larger majority disagree with their beliefs seems to me to be hypocritical. Our message is akin to, "I don't agree with your or your kind of people. I hate all racists and they should be hurt more because of their racism. Add another ten years to the sentance." That doesn't seem just to me.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:36 AM on January 9, 2003
There are a couple of levels to this argument that I've gone through. The first was to think that racism is bad, so killing someone because of their race is bigotry run amok, and should be heavily punished.
Then I thought, well, murder is the crime here, not racism. We should de-emphasize the importance of race in the decision to murder because it takes the strength away from the real point, which is that people simply shouldn't be killing each other, period. Playing the race card is just a petty way of gaining publicity, so that one murder will stand out more in the news than the countless others that were based on anger, or jealousy, or psychosis. Why are they any less important?
Then I thought to what first year law students are taught, and that is the importance of motivation. Premeditation to kill someone is always more harshly punished than crimes of passion. And the message you send by making hate crimes more "bad" than a simple crime of passion has a better effect on society -- I may kill a guy who's banging my wife, but my anger is towards him specifically, not a race in general.
But the more I think about it, the less I support this idea. In the end, it's not illegal to hate someone, or even a race of people. You can hate them negro's and fag's all you want in the great country of ours, just as long as you don't go commiting crimes against them. And it's the crime that's important. Motivation is still important, but not as much as some people might like to think. Planning the murder of someone is worse than accidentally hitting them with your car, I recognize that; mental illness or retardation where the suspect does not understand the consequences of their actions can also be forgivable. But penalizing someone more because we as a larger majority disagree with their beliefs seems to me to be hypocritical. Our message is akin to, "I don't agree with your or your kind of people. I hate all racists and they should be hurt more because of their racism. Add another ten years to the sentance." That doesn't seem just to me.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:36 AM on January 9, 2003
I would go so far as thinking that racists and bigots are worse as people than those who are tolerant, but I agree with Civil Disobediant's observations that those people are, under our current laws, allowed to have such opinions, and shouldn't face extra prosecution as such.
posted by The Michael The at 6:44 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by The Michael The at 6:44 AM on January 9, 2003
Hama7: Whiniest. Response. Ever.
Civil_Disobedient: I think you're missing an important element of hate crime legislation: These laws don't protect some small group of people that the legislature believes should be protected -- they protect every single person against violence based on a particulary abhorrent motivation. Crimes based on these motives don't just harm the victim, they can hurt people like the victim (by making it clear that they too can be victims based on a characteristic they can't control) and they hurt society. As such, it's a completely legitimate type of legislation.
The Michael The: They aren't being punished for their opinions. They're being punished for killing someone with a certain mental state. Do you oppose the concept of first-degree murder because it punishes people for thinking too much?
posted by subgenius at 7:22 AM on January 9, 2003
Civil_Disobedient: I think you're missing an important element of hate crime legislation: These laws don't protect some small group of people that the legislature believes should be protected -- they protect every single person against violence based on a particulary abhorrent motivation. Crimes based on these motives don't just harm the victim, they can hurt people like the victim (by making it clear that they too can be victims based on a characteristic they can't control) and they hurt society. As such, it's a completely legitimate type of legislation.
The Michael The: They aren't being punished for their opinions. They're being punished for killing someone with a certain mental state. Do you oppose the concept of first-degree murder because it punishes people for thinking too much?
posted by subgenius at 7:22 AM on January 9, 2003
BTW, my America comment was not to imply my own country has a flawless record. It's just that America is the topic here.
Why is America the topic here? These events took place nearly 50 years ago, flawless record does not begin to touch the surface of the atrocities committed by other "civilized" nations 50 years ago! I'm not just talking about Germany and Japan, just look at what was being committed by the British in India or Africa or the French in Indochina as examples!
I grew up in London, so black, brown, white, orange, it's all the same to me.
Great, I'm proud for you. I grew up in Alabama and came to the same conclusion, another conclusion I've come to is not to let anyone accuse MY country of being any more intolerant than another. I've had to put up with way too many drunk Germans on vacation to sit through this assault without at least batting an eyebrow. Yes, America has problems, many involving race. Is it worse than Europe? I don't know, at least immigrants can become full voting citizens regardless of race here. In the US a few years back they ran ads against marijuana where a father sternly questions a son who's stash he has just uncovered, the father asks, "Where did you learn to do this?" To which the son replies, "I learned it from watching you, OK?!?" A nation that introduces the practice of wholesale slavery on a mass scale in its colonies to fuel its own industrial revolution, sets those colonies up for a racial disaster down the road.
Why does America have such racial problems? We learned it from watching you, OK?!?
Flavor of the month. By 2004, how many will remember the Till family who did not know them before 2003?
Mischief, a hell of a lot of folks in the deep South remember who Emmitt Till, Andrew Goodman, Henry Schwerner, James Chaney, Viola Liuzzo, Jonathan Daniels and a whole lot more are and won't forget for a long time to come.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:35 AM on January 9, 2003
Why is America the topic here? These events took place nearly 50 years ago, flawless record does not begin to touch the surface of the atrocities committed by other "civilized" nations 50 years ago! I'm not just talking about Germany and Japan, just look at what was being committed by the British in India or Africa or the French in Indochina as examples!
I grew up in London, so black, brown, white, orange, it's all the same to me.
Great, I'm proud for you. I grew up in Alabama and came to the same conclusion, another conclusion I've come to is not to let anyone accuse MY country of being any more intolerant than another. I've had to put up with way too many drunk Germans on vacation to sit through this assault without at least batting an eyebrow. Yes, America has problems, many involving race. Is it worse than Europe? I don't know, at least immigrants can become full voting citizens regardless of race here. In the US a few years back they ran ads against marijuana where a father sternly questions a son who's stash he has just uncovered, the father asks, "Where did you learn to do this?" To which the son replies, "I learned it from watching you, OK?!?" A nation that introduces the practice of wholesale slavery on a mass scale in its colonies to fuel its own industrial revolution, sets those colonies up for a racial disaster down the road.
Why does America have such racial problems? We learned it from watching you, OK?!?
Flavor of the month. By 2004, how many will remember the Till family who did not know them before 2003?
Mischief, a hell of a lot of folks in the deep South remember who Emmitt Till, Andrew Goodman, Henry Schwerner, James Chaney, Viola Liuzzo, Jonathan Daniels and a whole lot more are and won't forget for a long time to come.
posted by Pollomacho at 7:35 AM on January 9, 2003
About the Bob Dylan thing: if I remember correctly, the context in which he rejected those songs wasn't for their content, but rather because he felt that he'd been something of a poseur in writing them; i.e., that his motivations for writing such songs, however great the result, were based more upon a need for acceptance than a genuine passion for politics.
posted by vraxoin at 7:36 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by vraxoin at 7:36 AM on January 9, 2003
Flavor of the month. By 2004, how many will remember the Till family who did not know them before 2003?
Mischief, you could be right to the extent that some of us won't remember the specifics of this case. But that doesn't mean that reading about this won't have made any impression, that we will all be exactly as we were before reading it. I read a huge amount of material (two to three books a week, the newspaper five days a week, a good ten hours of Internet surfing weekly) and I don't - can't - remember it all in detail. But everything I read adds something to a general and gradual growth of consciousness. And I am sure that knowing that a mother made a choice to let everyone see her murdered son's mutilated face will have its impact on me and others.
There are flavours of the month, and then there are single bricks added to a wall.
posted by orange swan at 7:39 AM on January 9, 2003
Mischief, you could be right to the extent that some of us won't remember the specifics of this case. But that doesn't mean that reading about this won't have made any impression, that we will all be exactly as we were before reading it. I read a huge amount of material (two to three books a week, the newspaper five days a week, a good ten hours of Internet surfing weekly) and I don't - can't - remember it all in detail. But everything I read adds something to a general and gradual growth of consciousness. And I am sure that knowing that a mother made a choice to let everyone see her murdered son's mutilated face will have its impact on me and others.
There are flavours of the month, and then there are single bricks added to a wall.
posted by orange swan at 7:39 AM on January 9, 2003
America might have race problems, but at least they don't make monkey sounds or throw bananas at black football players.
posted by dydecker at 7:48 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by dydecker at 7:48 AM on January 9, 2003
SubGenius:
First-degree murder is certainly more heinous than, say, manslaughter, because of its premeditation, regardless of the race of the murderer or victim. Intent and planning to kill, whether it is because of race, or a spurned lover, or drugs, or what have you, is still premeditated murder. Should fratricide carry extra penalties because it can harm others around the victim?
Also, by negatively reinforcing hate crimes, the government is in effect sanctioning division by race, which is perhaps one of the worst things that can be done.
On preview: no, but they do kill black people by tying them behind trucks and dragging them down the road, dydecker.
posted by The Michael The at 7:51 AM on January 9, 2003
First-degree murder is certainly more heinous than, say, manslaughter, because of its premeditation, regardless of the race of the murderer or victim. Intent and planning to kill, whether it is because of race, or a spurned lover, or drugs, or what have you, is still premeditated murder. Should fratricide carry extra penalties because it can harm others around the victim?
Also, by negatively reinforcing hate crimes, the government is in effect sanctioning division by race, which is perhaps one of the worst things that can be done.
On preview: no, but they do kill black people by tying them behind trucks and dragging them down the road, dydecker.
posted by The Michael The at 7:51 AM on January 9, 2003
Why does America have such racial problems? We learned it from watching you, OK?!?
Touché, but you could say that about anything. You finally wandered into the industrial age after watching us ;-) So what?
Perhaps the hypocrisy is on America's side because Europeans never proclaimed 'all men are born equal', and never pretended to be a fair and just people like the Americans. Face it, we're all about as 'free' and 'equal' as each other, but we don't pretend that our societies and political systems/constitutions are fair and just.
P.S. America was the original topic because I ventured that a link to an American show about Americans shown only in America qualifies it to be so. I may well be wrong.
posted by wackybrit at 7:55 AM on January 9, 2003
Touché, but you could say that about anything. You finally wandered into the industrial age after watching us ;-) So what?
Perhaps the hypocrisy is on America's side because Europeans never proclaimed 'all men are born equal', and never pretended to be a fair and just people like the Americans. Face it, we're all about as 'free' and 'equal' as each other, but we don't pretend that our societies and political systems/constitutions are fair and just.
P.S. America was the original topic because I ventured that a link to an American show about Americans shown only in America qualifies it to be so. I may well be wrong.
posted by wackybrit at 7:55 AM on January 9, 2003
Emmitt Till, Andrew Goodman, Henry Schwerner, James Chaney, Viola Liuzzo, Jonathan Daniels and a whole lot more
As a resident of South Carolina and/or Georgia since 1980, I do not recognize any of those names except Till which I only ran across a couple days ago. Since I am fairly well read news- and history-wise and don't know them, what makes you think the racists (for whom any of this really would matter) know them?
posted by mischief at 7:59 AM on January 9, 2003
As a resident of South Carolina and/or Georgia since 1980, I do not recognize any of those names except Till which I only ran across a couple days ago. Since I am fairly well read news- and history-wise and don't know them, what makes you think the racists (for whom any of this really would matter) know them?
posted by mischief at 7:59 AM on January 9, 2003
Although the person who said that was sparklingly correct. Oh, it was me.
Come on, people. How can you argue with such a sparkling argument?
posted by adampsyche at 8:00 AM on January 9, 2003
Come on, people. How can you argue with such a sparkling argument?
posted by adampsyche at 8:00 AM on January 9, 2003
As a resident of South Carolina and/or Georgia since 1980, I do not recognize any of those names except Till which I only ran across a couple days ago.
Maybe you had heard of them but you forgot because you consider these people 'flavor of the month'.
What was that about "if you're not part of the solution...?"
In the UK the parents of Stephen Lawrence, who was murdered by racists in 1993, have just been awarded OBEs in recognition of the work they've done to ensure similar murders don't happen again and are investigated properly by the police. No doubt some considered his murder 'flavour of the month' but his parents and friends have worked to ensure this wasn't the case by challenging the inertia and apathy that you appear comfortable with.
posted by niceness at 8:16 AM on January 9, 2003
Maybe you had heard of them but you forgot because you consider these people 'flavor of the month'.
What was that about "if you're not part of the solution...?"
In the UK the parents of Stephen Lawrence, who was murdered by racists in 1993, have just been awarded OBEs in recognition of the work they've done to ensure similar murders don't happen again and are investigated properly by the police. No doubt some considered his murder 'flavour of the month' but his parents and friends have worked to ensure this wasn't the case by challenging the inertia and apathy that you appear comfortable with.
posted by niceness at 8:16 AM on January 9, 2003
The Michael The: Fratricide has a different type of secondary harm than a bias crime. For the former, there are economic, emotional, pecuniary losses, and so on. But for the latter, there is the knowledge that the offender could have selected anyone else with the same characteristics. In other words, if Timmy wants to kill his daddy it's unlikely that he's going to kill someone else's daddy while he's at it. But if Timmy wants to kill Black people (or white people or women or straight people or British people) there is a whole classification of people who can be harmed -- and people who are not physically injured but who know that there are other Timmies out there and a government that can only do so much to protect them.
Think about those quotes from the Dylan link: "I never hurt a nigger in my life. I like niggers in their place. I know how to work 'em. But I just decided it was time a few people got put on notice." These aren't just crimes against a single person. They're aimed at a group of people and they're experienced by a group of people. That's why they're different. And that's why they deserve more severe punishments.
I'm not sure what you mean by "negatively reinforcing hate crimes." Should the government pretend that there is no race? That people are not victimized because of race? Maybe if we all think together, we can stop the race.
posted by subgenius at 8:24 AM on January 9, 2003
Think about those quotes from the Dylan link: "I never hurt a nigger in my life. I like niggers in their place. I know how to work 'em. But I just decided it was time a few people got put on notice." These aren't just crimes against a single person. They're aimed at a group of people and they're experienced by a group of people. That's why they're different. And that's why they deserve more severe punishments.
I'm not sure what you mean by "negatively reinforcing hate crimes." Should the government pretend that there is no race? That people are not victimized because of race? Maybe if we all think together, we can stop the race.
posted by subgenius at 8:24 AM on January 9, 2003
Goodman, Schwermer and Chaney were the three kids killed in Mississippi that sparked the whole "Mississippi Burning" incident.
Viola Liuzzo was a white woman who gave a ride to a couple of black guys returning to Selma, AL from Montgomery, she was murdered just outside of Selma.
St. Jonathan Daniels (or Saint John of Selma, he was actually canonized as a martyr) took a shotgun blast for a young girl shortly after being released from the Haneyville, AL jail. He'd been in Alabama working as a voting rights worker and had participated in the actions in Selma.
What makes me think that the racists remember? Because there are plenty of people that won't let them forget, such as PBS in presenting this documentary. But you know that, you know how much things HAVE changed, and how far they need to go, you live right in the heart of it in SC/GA. It gets harder and harder for bigots to explain to their kids why Martin Luther King was the bad guy and repeating images and stories like these makes it harder each time.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:30 AM on January 9, 2003
Viola Liuzzo was a white woman who gave a ride to a couple of black guys returning to Selma, AL from Montgomery, she was murdered just outside of Selma.
St. Jonathan Daniels (or Saint John of Selma, he was actually canonized as a martyr) took a shotgun blast for a young girl shortly after being released from the Haneyville, AL jail. He'd been in Alabama working as a voting rights worker and had participated in the actions in Selma.
What makes me think that the racists remember? Because there are plenty of people that won't let them forget, such as PBS in presenting this documentary. But you know that, you know how much things HAVE changed, and how far they need to go, you live right in the heart of it in SC/GA. It gets harder and harder for bigots to explain to their kids why Martin Luther King was the bad guy and repeating images and stories like these makes it harder each time.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:30 AM on January 9, 2003
To clarify: "Negative reinforcement" means to provide negative consequences for an action, in this case extra prison time etc. for hate crime.
And of course the government should not pretend that there is no race. What about the Boston Marathon? (rimshot).
Seriously, though. It's obvious that people are indeed victimized because of race; people also victimize themselves because of race. It's not possible for the world's population to simultaneously decide to stop being racist. No person or institution should pretend that there is no race, but they should not differentiate because of it. Total legal racial equality is the only viable way, as I see it, to eventually achieve total social racial equality, though the process has and will certainly continue to take a very long time, perhaps hundreds, even thousands of years.
If a governing body with overarching influence, in our case the government of whatever country we live in, pronounces "we're all the same," it will have an effect, though perhaps minute, but eventually it will become a reality. If they do the opposite and pronounce "we're different and we treat each other differently for that reason," then it will only lead to more fracture between races.
posted by The Michael The at 8:37 AM on January 9, 2003
And of course the government should not pretend that there is no race. What about the Boston Marathon? (rimshot).
Seriously, though. It's obvious that people are indeed victimized because of race; people also victimize themselves because of race. It's not possible for the world's population to simultaneously decide to stop being racist. No person or institution should pretend that there is no race, but they should not differentiate because of it. Total legal racial equality is the only viable way, as I see it, to eventually achieve total social racial equality, though the process has and will certainly continue to take a very long time, perhaps hundreds, even thousands of years.
If a governing body with overarching influence, in our case the government of whatever country we live in, pronounces "we're all the same," it will have an effect, though perhaps minute, but eventually it will become a reality. If they do the opposite and pronounce "we're different and we treat each other differently for that reason," then it will only lead to more fracture between races.
posted by The Michael The at 8:37 AM on January 9, 2003
A nation that introduces the practice of wholesale slavery on a mass scale in its colonies to fuel its own industrial revolution, sets those colonies up for a racial disaster down the road.
That doesn't really explain why you held onto slavery long after the mother country had abolished it.
America might have race problems, but at least they don't make monkey sounds or throw bananas at black football players.
Erm, hold on. What you're saying is 'America might still have racial problems to the extent that black men are murdered and horribly mutilated, but at least we don't make monkey sounds or throw bananas at black football players'.
Good argument. You win.
(note to self - don't get involved in silly tit-for-tat rows)
posted by Summer at 9:02 AM on January 9, 2003
That doesn't really explain why you held onto slavery long after the mother country had abolished it.
America might have race problems, but at least they don't make monkey sounds or throw bananas at black football players.
Erm, hold on. What you're saying is 'America might still have racial problems to the extent that black men are murdered and horribly mutilated, but at least we don't make monkey sounds or throw bananas at black football players'.
Good argument. You win.
(note to self - don't get involved in silly tit-for-tat rows)
posted by Summer at 9:02 AM on January 9, 2003
For those who are interested, and in Chicago:
There is a free preview showing if the movie at the Chicago Historical Society, followed by a question and answer sessoion Stanley Nelson (the filmmaker) and a tribute to Mamie Till.
January 10, 6:00pm. Reservations are required, and can be made at 312-642-4600
posted by aladfar at 9:44 AM on January 9, 2003
There is a free preview showing if the movie at the Chicago Historical Society, followed by a question and answer sessoion Stanley Nelson (the filmmaker) and a tribute to Mamie Till.
January 10, 6:00pm. Reservations are required, and can be made at 312-642-4600
posted by aladfar at 9:44 AM on January 9, 2003
By the way, the PBS documentary is well worth seeing. I saw an advance copy last night (and also last night, CNN aired an obit of Mamie Till that drew heavily from the documentary.) I was blown away at the depth and quality of the storytelling, not to mention how well-produced it was. "American Experience"/WGBH does good work.
And I think that her decision to leave the casket open was not only poignant but groundbreaking -- it started the groundswell that became the civil rights movement. (It predated by around 100 days the Montgomery bus boycott started by Rosa Parks' actions.) Mamie Till should be remembered and commemorated. The climate that led to what she did should be remembered. Her passing only makes the timing even more appropriate.
posted by Vidiot at 9:45 AM on January 9, 2003
And I think that her decision to leave the casket open was not only poignant but groundbreaking -- it started the groundswell that became the civil rights movement. (It predated by around 100 days the Montgomery bus boycott started by Rosa Parks' actions.) Mamie Till should be remembered and commemorated. The climate that led to what she did should be remembered. Her passing only makes the timing even more appropriate.
posted by Vidiot at 9:45 AM on January 9, 2003
>anyone accuse MY country of being any more intolerant
>than another
Yep. Quick, for 50 points, where was the KKK founded, and where did it hold it's annual meetings for about 15 years? Helpful hint, it was the same country that "interned" it's citizens of Japanese ancestry during WWII. America shouldn't be the primary location fingers get pointed at, even us "friendly" neighbours to the north have our shameful past.
posted by jkaczor at 10:00 AM on January 9, 2003
>than another
Yep. Quick, for 50 points, where was the KKK founded, and where did it hold it's annual meetings for about 15 years? Helpful hint, it was the same country that "interned" it's citizens of Japanese ancestry during WWII. America shouldn't be the primary location fingers get pointed at, even us "friendly" neighbours to the north have our shameful past.
posted by jkaczor at 10:00 AM on January 9, 2003
Note, if you're in Chicago, there'll be a screening at the Chicago Historical Society, and a Q&A with the filmmaker.
posted by gramcracker at 10:28 AM on January 9, 2003
posted by gramcracker at 10:28 AM on January 9, 2003
even us "friendly" neighbours to the north have our shameful past.
There's some dirt on Canada? Dish!
posted by wackybrit at 10:56 AM on January 9, 2003
There's some dirt on Canada? Dish!
posted by wackybrit at 10:56 AM on January 9, 2003
"What you are doing now sir, is called race-baiting. Harry Belafonte spewed the same vengeful nastiness toward Colin Powell, and Powell's response was:"
What you are doing is advertising a David Horowitz fundraising drive.
What is is with people like Horowitz looking to exploit every opportunity to benefit from a negative comment made by anyone who is not a conservative white male?
If anyone is racebaiting it appears to be Horowitz.
What you are doing is advertising a David Horowitz fundraising drive.
What is is with people like Horowitz looking to exploit every opportunity to benefit from a negative comment made by anyone who is not a conservative white male?
If anyone is racebaiting it appears to be Horowitz.
NPR's Michele Norris speaks to filmmaker Stanley Nelson about Mamie Till Mobley and his film The Murder of Emmett Till.
Studs Terkel interviewed Mamie Till-Mobley for his book Will The Circle Be Unbroken? Here, from WBEZ in Chicago, is an excerpt, and here, if you scroll down, is a transcript.
Here is a slide show of the only known original booklet of Complete Photo Story of Till Murder Case, photographed and printed by Ernest C. Withers in 1955.
Here is the Soundprint radio documentary, The Murder of Emmett Till.
Here is They Stand Accused: James L. Hicks Investigations, an excerpt from The Lynching of Emmett Till by Christopher Metress.
Now consider the following assertion:
The term "hate crime" is a meaningless abomination, and an affront to justice and common sense.
I disagree.
If you can't speak out against this kind of thing, a crime that's so unjust,
Your eyes are filled with dead men's dirt, your mind is filled with dust.
Bob Dylan later disavowed writing songs like The Death of Emmett Till but as the report there linked says, in spite of Dylan's rejection of his own song, there can be no question that in choosing this story to write about, he was once again ahead of his times.
But I report--you decide.
posted by y2karl at 1:20 AM on January 9, 2003