What Price Victory? - The Road Better Not Taken
February 11, 2003 1:14 AM Subscribe
The Road Better Not Taken
A war against Iraq could be the most catastrophic blunder
in U.S. history
The Case Against
A war against Iraq could be the most catastrophic blunder
in U.S. history
The Case Against
This post was deleted for the following reason: Iraq, you raq, we all raq!
If you're going to make a post related to Iraq and the impending war, please reconsider, as the topic has been discussed previously many times.
We get it, we get it, everyone's against the Iraq war!
posted by TheFarSeid at 1:38 AM on February 11, 2003
We get it, we get it, everyone's against the Iraq war!
posted by TheFarSeid at 1:38 AM on February 11, 2003
So this war in Iraq... you say it vibrates?
It resonates.
We reluctant hawks may disagree among ourselves about the most compelling logic for war — protecting America, relieving oppressed Iraqis or reforming the Middle East
This is what I find most unsettling about this situation. A person's stance on whether or not this war is justified can be a reflection of his own vision of how events will unfold, which boils down in some cases to hope (or fear). On the pro-war side, there is still a significant division between those who accept the administration's "logic for war" and those looking elsewhere for a cogent argument. The "reluctant hawks" are milling about, wrestling with these visions, those backing the administration are steeling their reserve, and those opposed continue to yell, or have given up on their hopes of affecting the course of events. What a mess. I get the impression that a lot of America is struggling with this.
posted by eddydamascene at 2:36 AM on February 11, 2003
It resonates.
We reluctant hawks may disagree among ourselves about the most compelling logic for war — protecting America, relieving oppressed Iraqis or reforming the Middle East
This is what I find most unsettling about this situation. A person's stance on whether or not this war is justified can be a reflection of his own vision of how events will unfold, which boils down in some cases to hope (or fear). On the pro-war side, there is still a significant division between those who accept the administration's "logic for war" and those looking elsewhere for a cogent argument. The "reluctant hawks" are milling about, wrestling with these visions, those backing the administration are steeling their reserve, and those opposed continue to yell, or have given up on their hopes of affecting the course of events. What a mess. I get the impression that a lot of America is struggling with this.
posted by eddydamascene at 2:36 AM on February 11, 2003
This thread will self-destruct in 5...4...3...
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:47 AM on February 11, 2003
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 2:47 AM on February 11, 2003
We reluctant hawks may disagree among ourselves about the most compelling logic for war — protecting America, relieving oppressed Iraqis or reforming the Middle East
+
A leaked UN contingency planning report predicted that as many as 500,000 Iraqi civilians could be injured or have their health impaired by city fighting
=
Protecting America is the only reason
OP: Civil_Disobedient is on the money
posted by magullo at 2:57 AM on February 11, 2003
+
A leaked UN contingency planning report predicted that as many as 500,000 Iraqi civilians could be injured or have their health impaired by city fighting
=
Protecting America is the only reason
OP: Civil_Disobedient is on the money
posted by magullo at 2:57 AM on February 11, 2003
The current President believes the American spirit resonates through power, not Liberty. This is a terribly, terribly wrong, and is as far from the Spirit of 1776 as Kenneth Lay is from Enron's retirement pensions.
A black day, indeed. One hopes the American people will see through the fog and rescue their Nation from the peril of Republican tyranny.
posted by four panels at 3:21 AM on February 11, 2003
A black day, indeed. One hopes the American people will see through the fog and rescue their Nation from the peril of Republican tyranny.
posted by four panels at 3:21 AM on February 11, 2003
my goal in life is to one day vomit on george bush's shoes. but you all knew that.
posted by quonsar at 6:31 AM on February 11, 2003
posted by quonsar at 6:31 AM on February 11, 2003
It's good to see Iraq working so hard to follow the UN resolution.
posted by Plunge at 6:45 AM on February 11, 2003
posted by Plunge at 6:45 AM on February 11, 2003
my goal in life is to one day vomit on george bush's shoes.
...and my goal is to hold a cool, damp washcloth to quonsar's head while he does it.
posted by jennyb at 7:01 AM on February 11, 2003
...and my goal is to hold a cool, damp washcloth to quonsar's head while he does it.
posted by jennyb at 7:01 AM on February 11, 2003
I am (for) (against) the war. People who are (against) (for) the war are poopyheads.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:02 AM on February 11, 2003
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:02 AM on February 11, 2003
Plunge, got any more stories with not a single identifiable source or independently refutable piece of data on them?
posted by magullo at 7:04 AM on February 11, 2003
posted by magullo at 7:04 AM on February 11, 2003
This cliche will get as boring and grating as vibrating in.... oh, wait, it already is.
Well, you probably won't like these, either...
In Soviet Russia, Iraq attacks you!
I, for one, welcome our hawkish overlords.
I am (for) (against) the war. People who are (against) (for) the war are poopyheads.
Iraq: I'd hit it.
All your oil are belong to us.
This response will get as boring and as grating as people with so little on their mind as to respond to... oh, wait, too late.
On preview: You beat me to the punch, ROU_Xenophobe!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:09 AM on February 11, 2003
Well, you probably won't like these, either...
In Soviet Russia, Iraq attacks you!
I, for one, welcome our hawkish overlords.
I am (for) (against) the war. People who are (against) (for) the war are poopyheads.
Iraq: I'd hit it.
All your oil are belong to us.
This response will get as boring and as grating as people with so little on their mind as to respond to... oh, wait, too late.
On preview: You beat me to the punch, ROU_Xenophobe!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:09 AM on February 11, 2003
magullo: You mean like most of the stories posted here? Of course ABC news is radical and untrustworthy.
posted by Plunge at 7:32 AM on February 11, 2003
posted by Plunge at 7:32 AM on February 11, 2003
Bizarre formatting: -50 points
Iraq: -100 points
Vibrating meme: -1,000 points
Total: Bludgeons self in head with icepick
posted by vraxoin at 7:42 AM on February 11, 2003
Iraq: -100 points
Vibrating meme: -1,000 points
Total: Bludgeons self in head with icepick
posted by vraxoin at 7:42 AM on February 11, 2003
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Additionally, a more grimly optimistic take: The I-Can't-Believe-I'm-a-Hawk Club by Bill Keller. (NYT)
So the war in Iraq does not settle the question of American power, but raises it to a new urgency. I think there is a consensus to be built. It is not the ultrahawk view of an America radiating indifference to everyone who gets in its way, keeping aspiring powers in their place, shunning the clumsy implements of international law and leading with its air force. Nor is it the Vietnam-syndrome reticence about American power that still holds portions of both parties in sway.
Ronald Asmus, a Clinton Europe hand who came to the idea of regime change by way of Slobodan Milosevic, imagines a consensus somewhat like the honorable coalition that grew up during Bosnia and Kosovo. The desire to save the Balkans united humanitarian Democrats who are not squeamish about force with idealistic Republicans who define American interest more broadly than self-defense. For a time, Paul Wolfowitz and Joseph Biden sang from the same hymnal. (The French foreign minister hummed along!)
"The question is, is this about American power, or is it about democracy?" Mr. Asmus asks. "If it's about democracy, we'll have a broader base of support at home and more friends abroad. The great presidents of the last century — F.D.R., Wilson, Truman — all tried to articulate America's purpose in a way that other parts of the world could buy into. Bush hasn't done that yet." Before long, we'll find out if he cares to.
posted by y2karl at 1:14 AM on February 11, 2003