Meigs Field X-ed Out
April 1, 2003 12:34 AM Subscribe
Meigs Field, a small Chicago lakefront airport, has been destroyed on the orders of Mayor Richard Daley. Citing terrorism concerns because of its proximity to Chicago's largest buildings, Daley sent in heavy machinery to dig large Xs into the runway. Here's Daley's press release, the initial reaction from the FAA, and the website of the Friends of Meigs Field.
"Mayor Daley has no honor and his word has no value. The sneaky way he did this shows that he knows it was wrong."
err, no, The sneaky way he did this shows he didn't want to be bothered by potential protests who might concievably get in rhe way and delay the destruction.
posted by DBAPaul at 3:27 AM on April 1, 2003
err, no, The sneaky way he did this shows he didn't want to be bothered by potential protests who might concievably get in rhe way and delay the destruction.
posted by DBAPaul at 3:27 AM on April 1, 2003
Daley has wanted to get his greedy little paws on Meigs for years now. It's hard for anyone who's followed this since then to see this as anything other than a smash and grab. It's also wrapped up in the conflict over opening a third Chicago airport.
posted by ursus_comiter at 5:10 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by ursus_comiter at 5:10 AM on April 1, 2003
What a shame.
Chalk up another point to Osama bin Laden, with an assist from Mayor Daley. Who knew that by attacking buildings in New York, you could destroy airports in Chicago? Pretty clever.
The really sad part is that the closure of Meigs makes the airspace around Chicago less safe, not more. There is one fewer control tower directing traffic, and congestion at O'Hare and Midway will increase (if that's possible), increasing the risk of accidents.
posted by blue mustard at 5:12 AM on April 1, 2003
Chalk up another point to Osama bin Laden, with an assist from Mayor Daley. Who knew that by attacking buildings in New York, you could destroy airports in Chicago? Pretty clever.
The really sad part is that the closure of Meigs makes the airspace around Chicago less safe, not more. There is one fewer control tower directing traffic, and congestion at O'Hare and Midway will increase (if that's possible), increasing the risk of accidents.
posted by blue mustard at 5:12 AM on April 1, 2003
I love the taste of Chicago politics early in the morning...
posted by SpecialK at 6:53 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by SpecialK at 6:53 AM on April 1, 2003
This is all about the useless third airport that Daley has wanted for years (and where IS Peotone, anyway?). I guess he figured if Bush can send us into a war that the public doesn't want, then Daley can do whatever he damn well pleases too. The major users of Meigs are politicians and super-rich executives with private planes. It seems like a bad plan to alienate those guys when you're the pro-business mayor. Daley can't even do anything with the land because it's lakefront property, and therefore protected from development (Thank you Burnham, for saving the lake for the public).
posted by answergrape at 6:55 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by answergrape at 6:55 AM on April 1, 2003
Answergrape: Peotone. Don't ask me how an airport that's even harder to get to than O'Hare is supposed to help matters. I'm just glad they renovated Midway so that it's not such a dump anymore.
posted by Johnny Assay at 7:27 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by Johnny Assay at 7:27 AM on April 1, 2003
The haste under cover of night covered with the complete lack of care at the press conference adds up to something really rotten. I know the land is owned by the Park District - I'm wondering how they can spin this into a land deal for more fucking hi-rise condos yay!
posted by ao4047 at 7:29 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by ao4047 at 7:29 AM on April 1, 2003
The really sad part is that the closure of Meigs makes the airspace around Chicago less safe, not more. There is one fewer control tower directing traffic, and congestion at O'Hare and Midway will increase (if that's possible), increasing the risk of accidents.
Uhh, no. The traffic that went into Meigs Airport was small, GA traffic. This traffic is not allowed at ORD, and can eaisly be handled at Midway (on runways that the commercial jets cannot use), Pauwakee, DuPage, Schaumburg, or any number of other GA airports in the area.
Furthermore, the reason you needed a control tower to control lakefront traffic was, well, traffic coming in to/out of Meigs Field. The ATCT (Air Traffic Control Tower) at Meigs controlled an incredibly small amount of airspace, concerned mostly with operations at Meigs itself. Meigs is just under the ORD Class B, airspace, very close to the MDW Class C, and you'll either be flying VFR -- in which case, you, not the tower, is responsible for seperation, or IFR, in which case, the Chicago TRACON (Terminal Area COntroller) will be dealing with you.
Meigs needed a tower because Meigs was handling landing and takeoffs. Since you prefer to do these one at a time, you need to control the airspace immediatly around the tower. Since you can't land there, the statement that the lack of an ATCT makes the area less safe is not true -- there will be much less traffic at that spot.
All ATCTs, including O'Hare, control a very small amount of airspace. Traffic is vectored into the ATCT control by the TRACON, who lines them up, in the cases of busy airports, vectors them into the airport, and then, very close to landing, hands them off to the ATCT. In less busy areas, IFR traffic to the airports is handled by either local TRACONs (the ORD TRACON handles the entire Chicagoland area) or by the ARTCCs (the Air Route Traffic Control Centers, the centers that move traffic across the country.)
And, note, finally, none of this applies to General Avation operating under VFR. They are required only to be under controller guidance when transiting controlled airspace, or when flying IFR.
There may be good reason for Meigs -- but it's one, count them, one, runway, pointing the wrong way, 90 degress off the prevailing winds, and these reasons (cribbed directly from AOPA's site, it seems.) are far from compelling reasons for keeping Meigs.
This is all about the useless third airport that Daley has wanted for years (and where IS Peotone, anyway?)
Peotone is way-the-fsck south. But where did you get the idea that Daley wants Peotone? Daley's adamantly opposed to Peotone, since the whole reason for building it was to prevent the runway expansion at O'Hare.
Daley can't even do anything with the land because it's lakefront property, and therefore protected from development (Thank you Burnham, for saving the lake for the public).
Which is why Daley's advocating the destruction of Meigs -- he wants to turn it back into parkland. It's on Chicago parkland, as a matter of fact. I find it interesting that you condemn Daley for taking action you support. (and, let me just agree, answergrape, that we should thank Daniel Burnham daley, I mean, daily. "The Lakefront, free and clear to the public, forever" -- what a magnficent gift! -- Now if we can only lose the monstrosity south of Solider Field. (Which may happen -- all the expansion has been on the east side of the Drive.))
Daley did make a deal last year to keep Meigs open for 25 years, and support Peotone, but only if they had Federal money for the ORD runway reconfiguration/expansion.
My guess is somebody made a call to Daley telling him he wasn't getting the ORD money, and he better play ball. The result was Meigs being shutdown post-haste. One does not tell a Daley to "play ball". I'm guessing, here, but similar Daley incidents have happened before. (Further guess -- the caller was named Peter Fitzgerald.)
The City of Chicago will almost certainly be fined for not giving proper warning about the closing, but that's it. It's Chicago Park Department land, and there's no Federal money at Meigs, which means there's no requirment to keep it open. CGX is gone.
I can understand why some GA pilots are upset -- what a fun airport to fly from. But, you know, in the scheme of things, it's not that big a deal.
I'm a little more upset about how Daley did it. There's something else here, though. I just don't know what.
posted by eriko at 7:32 AM on April 1, 2003 [1 favorite]
err. "west side of the drive." I still lie in bed, wondering if there's a dog or not.
posted by eriko at 7:33 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by eriko at 7:33 AM on April 1, 2003
The Mayor makes the president look like a genius. I hate that slurred bag of trash. The best and most infuriating part of all of this is the speech he gave, I can find no online record of it, but the basic quote was "We are doing this out of fear". Fear based policy, that is just great.
The local hospitals without heliports are now out of luck, and between this and the no fly zone I suppose the Air and Water show is a thing of the past. A liar and a coward is running the city, and he got a elected by a landslide. The public wants what the public gets.
posted by thirteen at 7:47 AM on April 1, 2003
The local hospitals without heliports are now out of luck, and between this and the no fly zone I suppose the Air and Water show is a thing of the past. A liar and a coward is running the city, and he got a elected by a landslide. The public wants what the public gets.
posted by thirteen at 7:47 AM on April 1, 2003
It's alarming how similar a problem this incident is to our current war situation. A leader, even a good one(which I don't think Dubya is), without a strong counterpoint is constantly in danger of being a dictator. Daley won the election by such a landslide that apparently he doesn't feel the need for messy public accountability anymore. Of course, Dubya didn't have even have to win an election. I partially blame the city council for laying down and dying, just like the US Senate voted to give the president emporer status to avoid beinc called 'unpatriotic'. No counterpoint=dictator.
posted by answergrape at 7:59 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by answergrape at 7:59 AM on April 1, 2003
I saw a bit of the press conference about this yesterday - my favorite bit was the question "You kept Meigs open as part of a deal with Governor Ryan for his support of O'Hare expansion. Do you think breaking that deal will hurt your credibility in any future deals you might try to make with other politicians?"
Answer: "No."
"Why not?"
Answer: "Because. Next question..."
The reporter sounded incredulous at the utter arrogance of Daley's answer.
posted by dnash at 8:09 AM on April 1, 2003
Answer: "No."
"Why not?"
Answer: "Because. Next question..."
The reporter sounded incredulous at the utter arrogance of Daley's answer.
posted by dnash at 8:09 AM on April 1, 2003
The local hospitals without heliports are now out of luck,
How so? A helicopter can land anywhere with enough flat space -- you don't need a 4000' runway. Furthermore, doing emergency medical flights to Meigs is insane -- getting from CGX to the nearest hospitals would take forever by ambulance.
Plus, both the nearby hospital complexes have heliports.
and between this and the no fly zone I suppose the Air and Water show is a thing of the past.
Doubt it -- and A&W is held up at North Ave, not downtown. Looking at the TFR, the North Ave site isn't covered -- the TFR affect basically the Loop and Mag Mile areas.
A liar and a coward is running the city, and he got a elected by a landslide. The public wants what the public gets.
Yep. A mayor who thinks greenspace is important, which is one of the reasons he got elected.
You call him a coward, but he goes and takes action which he knew would bring him huge amounts of grief? Not what I'd call a coward.
As to a liar? Remember, the deal to keep CGX open was for 25 years, and based on expansion at ORD. Now I'm hearing that Peter Fitzgerald moved to kill the ORD expansion funding.
If you want to point fingers at a deal-breaker, perhaps one should talk to Rep. Fitzgerald first -- who took advantage of the cover of war to break a deal with the Mayor.
This would certainly explain Daley's reaction. I'm wondering what that phone call must have been like.
posted by eriko at 8:17 AM on April 1, 2003
How so? A helicopter can land anywhere with enough flat space -- you don't need a 4000' runway. Furthermore, doing emergency medical flights to Meigs is insane -- getting from CGX to the nearest hospitals would take forever by ambulance.
Plus, both the nearby hospital complexes have heliports.
and between this and the no fly zone I suppose the Air and Water show is a thing of the past.
Doubt it -- and A&W is held up at North Ave, not downtown. Looking at the TFR, the North Ave site isn't covered -- the TFR affect basically the Loop and Mag Mile areas.
A liar and a coward is running the city, and he got a elected by a landslide. The public wants what the public gets.
Yep. A mayor who thinks greenspace is important, which is one of the reasons he got elected.
You call him a coward, but he goes and takes action which he knew would bring him huge amounts of grief? Not what I'd call a coward.
As to a liar? Remember, the deal to keep CGX open was for 25 years, and based on expansion at ORD. Now I'm hearing that Peter Fitzgerald moved to kill the ORD expansion funding.
If you want to point fingers at a deal-breaker, perhaps one should talk to Rep. Fitzgerald first -- who took advantage of the cover of war to break a deal with the Mayor.
This would certainly explain Daley's reaction. I'm wondering what that phone call must have been like.
posted by eriko at 8:17 AM on April 1, 2003
A bit of history about Miegs: The island on which it resides is man made - one of a string on islands planned for by Daniel Burnham. The idea was to develop a sort of idyllic archipelago along the lakefront. A great idea that was, unfortunately, never realized.
As such, only one of these islands - dozens were planned for - was actually constructed. It sat there, more or less unused.
But with the advent of aviation, it seemed like an excellent place for an airport. Direct access to the second largest city in the nation. What could be better?
In more modern times, however, the scope of Meigs Field has narrowed considerably. Indeed, it's often said that you can go anywhere in the world from Miegs so long as it's Springfield (our state capital).
And so, the clientele is very exclusive. State legislators commuting to and from Springfield. That's just about it. As the mayor has very little love for the people down in the statehouse, he's always wanted to rid himself of the place. In his mind, the city would be far better served by a pleasant new park.
Which is what the place was meant for from the beginning.
But sending in thugs to tear up the runway in the middle of the night? That is rather peculiar. Daley is far and away the most powerful mayor in the country. Had he gone through the motions of a public hearing, he'd most certainly have gotten his way.
But that wouldn't have made for as nearly an interesting story.
posted by aladfar at 8:37 AM on April 1, 2003
As such, only one of these islands - dozens were planned for - was actually constructed. It sat there, more or less unused.
But with the advent of aviation, it seemed like an excellent place for an airport. Direct access to the second largest city in the nation. What could be better?
In more modern times, however, the scope of Meigs Field has narrowed considerably. Indeed, it's often said that you can go anywhere in the world from Miegs so long as it's Springfield (our state capital).
And so, the clientele is very exclusive. State legislators commuting to and from Springfield. That's just about it. As the mayor has very little love for the people down in the statehouse, he's always wanted to rid himself of the place. In his mind, the city would be far better served by a pleasant new park.
Which is what the place was meant for from the beginning.
But sending in thugs to tear up the runway in the middle of the night? That is rather peculiar. Daley is far and away the most powerful mayor in the country. Had he gone through the motions of a public hearing, he'd most certainly have gotten his way.
But that wouldn't have made for as nearly an interesting story.
posted by aladfar at 8:37 AM on April 1, 2003
How so? A helicopter can land anywhere with enough flat space -- you don't need a 4000' runway. Furthermore, doing emergency medical flights to Meigs is insane -- getting from CGX to the nearest hospitals would take forever by ambulance.
According to the news last night, Northwestern does not have a heliport, and used Meigs frequently.
Doubt it -- and A&W is held up at North Ave, not downtown.
I was being a bit sarcastic. Surely a man so concerned for our safety, would not allow so many dangerous airplanes to come so close to the city. It just is not worth the risk.
You call him a coward, but he goes and takes action which he knew would bring him huge amounts of grief? Not what I'd call a coward.
The mayor got elected because no one else was allowed to. He is up to his nose in corruption, and it is sick to spin it into a virtue. What do you call a man who is afraid of debate, and signs his executive orders at 3 in the morning. Is this the way brave men act these days? There is no shortage of greenspace along the lake, and that particular bit of land is barely even connected with the shore. I ride the path every freaking morning. I already alluded to his speech where he talked about how afraid he was of Meigs. Why does he not act on that fear and shut down O'Hare which surely must be a much greater danger. I do not really believe he is afraid of the airport, but I do believe he was afraid to have a debate over the subject because he would not have been able to hold his own in any conversation on the subject.
We can debate the value of his word, but it is meaningless when his actions show he values debate not at all.
The man has just wasted millions of dollars of this city's money, and there needs to be some accountability. There should have been a referendum, but it is too much to ask made men to play fair I guess.
posted by thirteen at 8:53 AM on April 1, 2003
According to the news last night, Northwestern does not have a heliport, and used Meigs frequently.
Doubt it -- and A&W is held up at North Ave, not downtown.
I was being a bit sarcastic. Surely a man so concerned for our safety, would not allow so many dangerous airplanes to come so close to the city. It just is not worth the risk.
You call him a coward, but he goes and takes action which he knew would bring him huge amounts of grief? Not what I'd call a coward.
The mayor got elected because no one else was allowed to. He is up to his nose in corruption, and it is sick to spin it into a virtue. What do you call a man who is afraid of debate, and signs his executive orders at 3 in the morning. Is this the way brave men act these days? There is no shortage of greenspace along the lake, and that particular bit of land is barely even connected with the shore. I ride the path every freaking morning. I already alluded to his speech where he talked about how afraid he was of Meigs. Why does he not act on that fear and shut down O'Hare which surely must be a much greater danger. I do not really believe he is afraid of the airport, but I do believe he was afraid to have a debate over the subject because he would not have been able to hold his own in any conversation on the subject.
We can debate the value of his word, but it is meaningless when his actions show he values debate not at all.
The man has just wasted millions of dollars of this city's money, and there needs to be some accountability. There should have been a referendum, but it is too much to ask made men to play fair I guess.
posted by thirteen at 8:53 AM on April 1, 2003
Actually, small private planes are allowed at O'Hare, but they are discouraged through high fees (landing, parking, ramp, security) and inconvenient facility location. Big airports like O'Hare and Midway don't like small, slow planes because they clog up the approach pattern. Many small planes can't even go the 150-190 knot approach speeds used by jumbo jets. The number of flights into Meigs Field was small, but the effect of those flights going into larger airports will be more delays for everyone.
Even if Daley did this for environmental reasons (which I seriously doubt), he did it outside the legitimate government process of hearings and review. His argument was that he "saved" the city from the delay of public debate.
posted by letitrain at 8:58 AM on April 1, 2003
Even if Daley did this for environmental reasons (which I seriously doubt), he did it outside the legitimate government process of hearings and review. His argument was that he "saved" the city from the delay of public debate.
posted by letitrain at 8:58 AM on April 1, 2003
My last post is suffering from some rewritting failure. Urg.
posted by thirteen at 8:58 AM on April 1, 2003
posted by thirteen at 8:58 AM on April 1, 2003
eriko, thanks for the informative posts. I admit that Meigs closure is not a huge safety issue, because, as you note, there is other ATC in the area. However, the stated justification for closing Meigs -- preventing terrorist attacks launched via the airport -- is ludicrous, and is even less of an issue.
Congestion is still relevent though... I think you might be mistaken about GA traffic being banned from ORD; is this really true?
posted by blue mustard at 9:04 AM on April 1, 2003
Congestion is still relevent though... I think you might be mistaken about GA traffic being banned from ORD; is this really true?
posted by blue mustard at 9:04 AM on April 1, 2003
Taking land that was supposed to be public away from rich legislators and pilots and making it public again...assuming that Daley turns it into a park, I don't understand why everybody is so upset.
Yes, his process was dictatorial, but he has been fighting about this for years. In this case, I don't blame him.
posted by goethean at 9:39 AM on April 1, 2003
Yes, his process was dictatorial, but he has been fighting about this for years. In this case, I don't blame him.
posted by goethean at 9:39 AM on April 1, 2003
goethean, there are over 600,000 licensed pilots in the US. Not all of them are "rich legislators".
Still, if your point is that a park could be enjoyed by everybody and not just pilots, you're right. Given that the airport is gone, I hope they make a nice park.
posted by blue mustard at 11:52 AM on April 1, 2003
Still, if your point is that a park could be enjoyed by everybody and not just pilots, you're right. Given that the airport is gone, I hope they make a nice park.
posted by blue mustard at 11:52 AM on April 1, 2003
And so, the clientele is very exclusive. State legislators commuting to and from Springfield. That's just about it.
My good friend's dad flies in to Meigs from Iowa to visit his daughter in Chicago. He's not a politician or extremely rich. Just a guy with a pilot's license who would rather fly than drive.
Nevertheless, I think Mayor Daley is hilarious. He takes no crap from anybody. As a matter of fact, he rules.
posted by elvissinatra at 12:27 PM on April 1, 2003
My good friend's dad flies in to Meigs from Iowa to visit his daughter in Chicago. He's not a politician or extremely rich. Just a guy with a pilot's license who would rather fly than drive.
Nevertheless, I think Mayor Daley is hilarious. He takes no crap from anybody. As a matter of fact, he rules.
posted by elvissinatra at 12:27 PM on April 1, 2003
The South Side lakefront parks are decaying. Money spent to make a small park at Meigs could repair miles and miles of lakefront parks. But those parks cater to the needs of resident Africn Americans, not white tourists. Since there was no strong black challanger in the last election, their needs can now be ignored, Daley's betting.
And the new post-Meigs park would be a fine thing to name after Maggie, wouldn't it?
Meigs handeled 60,000 T&L's in 1990, and with simple nav upgrades, could handle 100,000 or more.
If you want to take things away from the rich, why not close Waveland Golf course (or whatever they renamed it) and turn it into a nature preserve/park? I walk by it almost everyday, and I have never seen non-yuppies out there. No more than a handful of people can use it any one time as it is, and it's several times the size of Meigs.
The shabby way the closing of Meigs was handled points to an even larger problem - Daley has begun to believe his own bullshit. Soon he'll think that he's bullet-proof. That's when the real trouble starts ...
posted by Jos Bleau at 12:36 PM on April 1, 2003
And the new post-Meigs park would be a fine thing to name after Maggie, wouldn't it?
Meigs handeled 60,000 T&L's in 1990, and with simple nav upgrades, could handle 100,000 or more.
If you want to take things away from the rich, why not close Waveland Golf course (or whatever they renamed it) and turn it into a nature preserve/park? I walk by it almost everyday, and I have never seen non-yuppies out there. No more than a handful of people can use it any one time as it is, and it's several times the size of Meigs.
The shabby way the closing of Meigs was handled points to an even larger problem - Daley has begun to believe his own bullshit. Soon he'll think that he's bullet-proof. That's when the real trouble starts ...
posted by Jos Bleau at 12:36 PM on April 1, 2003
However, the stated justification for closing Meigs -- preventing terrorist attacks launched via the airport -- is ludicrous, and is even less of an issue.
How is it absurd? Small planes landing at Meigs would fly incredibly close to all of the 50+ story buildings of the loop and lakefront. How hard would it be to pack one full of something bad and fly it into a building? Isn't that exactly what Mohammed Atta was thinking of doing?
The mayor's methods are certainly not pretty, but I don't think you can just blow off the fact that people aren't real comfortable with planes landing in downtown anymore.
posted by Mid at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2003
How is it absurd? Small planes landing at Meigs would fly incredibly close to all of the 50+ story buildings of the loop and lakefront. How hard would it be to pack one full of something bad and fly it into a building? Isn't that exactly what Mohammed Atta was thinking of doing?
The mayor's methods are certainly not pretty, but I don't think you can just blow off the fact that people aren't real comfortable with planes landing in downtown anymore.
posted by Mid at 12:41 PM on April 1, 2003
Here's more information about Meigs Field from Airnav.com:
Aircraft operations: avg 78/day
91% transient general aviation
5% local general aviation
3% air taxi
1% military
Using those numbers, there will be roughly 30,000 flights per year that will go through O'Hare, or more likely, Midway.
goethean, I'm taking pilot lessons now, and it's surprisingly accessible for average people. Not many poor people can afford it, but there were several outreach programs for youth at Meigs Field.
posted by letitrain at 12:43 PM on April 1, 2003
Aircraft operations: avg 78/day
91% transient general aviation
5% local general aviation
3% air taxi
1% military
Using those numbers, there will be roughly 30,000 flights per year that will go through O'Hare, or more likely, Midway.
goethean, I'm taking pilot lessons now, and it's surprisingly accessible for average people. Not many poor people can afford it, but there were several outreach programs for youth at Meigs Field.
posted by letitrain at 12:43 PM on April 1, 2003
The South Side lakefront parks are decaying. Money spent to make a small park at Meigs could repair miles and miles of lakefront parks. But those parks cater to the needs of resident Africn Americans, not white tourists. Since there was no strong black challanger in the last election, their needs can now be ignored, Daley's betting.
Dude, do you ever go to the south side? For the past 5 years there have been huge construction/repair projects all along the lake at about 20-30 south, 45-55 south (Hyde Park and Promontory Point), and around 70 south (Rainbow Beach). There are probably others that I don't know about.
posted by Mid at 12:46 PM on April 1, 2003
Dude, do you ever go to the south side? For the past 5 years there have been huge construction/repair projects all along the lake at about 20-30 south, 45-55 south (Hyde Park and Promontory Point), and around 70 south (Rainbow Beach). There are probably others that I don't know about.
posted by Mid at 12:46 PM on April 1, 2003
Dictatorial moves such as this one are good so long as I support them.
And what Mid said. The south side lakefront has had gobs and gobs of cash dumped on it over the past few years.
posted by mathis23 at 12:49 PM on April 1, 2003
And what Mid said. The south side lakefront has had gobs and gobs of cash dumped on it over the past few years.
posted by mathis23 at 12:49 PM on April 1, 2003
Uh Mid & mathis, sometimes what you see from your car on LSD ain't what you think you get.
On S. Side, that's almost all Federal/ACE shoreline reconstruction, and Sate funded highway improvements. That's to fight the effects of erosion and improve the highway. The City Park Dist. is in charge of amenities, access, management, etc - the stuff that turns land into a park. There's been no shortage of Fed. construction to save the land from washing away and State $$$ to improve roads- but almost no City $$$ spending on making the parks actually usable by people.
Try to go to them & see.
Like I did last Sunday, scouting locales for a family reunion, (not mine, but that's another story).
posted by Jos Bleau at 1:08 PM on April 1, 2003
On S. Side, that's almost all Federal/ACE shoreline reconstruction, and Sate funded highway improvements. That's to fight the effects of erosion and improve the highway. The City Park Dist. is in charge of amenities, access, management, etc - the stuff that turns land into a park. There's been no shortage of Fed. construction to save the land from washing away and State $$$ to improve roads- but almost no City $$$ spending on making the parks actually usable by people.
Try to go to them & see.
Like I did last Sunday, scouting locales for a family reunion, (not mine, but that's another story).
posted by Jos Bleau at 1:08 PM on April 1, 2003
How is it absurd? Small planes landing at Meigs would fly incredibly close to all of the 50+ story buildings of the loop and lakefront. How hard would it be to pack one full of something bad and fly it into a building?
Why discriminate against aviation? How hard is it to pack a truck full of something, drive it into the Loop, and blow it up? Surely that could cause more damage than a Cessna bouncing off the Sears tower. Or, if one really has one's evil heart fixated on crashing planes into buildings: how hard is it to take off from Midway, fly to the Loop, and crash into the building?
Closing Meigs doesn't make Chicago safer.
posted by blue mustard at 1:29 PM on April 1, 2003
Why discriminate against aviation? How hard is it to pack a truck full of something, drive it into the Loop, and blow it up? Surely that could cause more damage than a Cessna bouncing off the Sears tower. Or, if one really has one's evil heart fixated on crashing planes into buildings: how hard is it to take off from Midway, fly to the Loop, and crash into the building?
Closing Meigs doesn't make Chicago safer.
posted by blue mustard at 1:29 PM on April 1, 2003
How hard would it be to pack one full of something bad and fly it into a building?
About as hard as it would be to pack a car full of explosives and drive it into the parking garage, orto rents and office/apartment and do the same. What does bad even mean. I think you can pack a cessna full of dynamite and not really do damage to one of the downtown buildings. The towers went down because of mass and fuel to burn. Nothing flying out of Meigs could do that, and nothing bigger can be stopped unless we have anti-aircraft guns mounted in the loop now.
I am fairly disturbed that anyone could think that such a naked abuse of power is something to admire. We all got robbed the other day.
posted by thirteen at 1:29 PM on April 1, 2003
About as hard as it would be to pack a car full of explosives and drive it into the parking garage, orto rents and office/apartment and do the same. What does bad even mean. I think you can pack a cessna full of dynamite and not really do damage to one of the downtown buildings. The towers went down because of mass and fuel to burn. Nothing flying out of Meigs could do that, and nothing bigger can be stopped unless we have anti-aircraft guns mounted in the loop now.
I am fairly disturbed that anyone could think that such a naked abuse of power is something to admire. We all got robbed the other day.
posted by thirteen at 1:29 PM on April 1, 2003
The South Side lakefront parks are decaying. Money spent to make a small park at Meigs could repair miles and miles of lakefront parks. But those parks cater to the needs of resident African Americans, not white tourists.
How about residents of every color? Cause I love the lake front parks too, and I'm not African American.
posted by agregoli at 1:33 PM on April 1, 2003
How about residents of every color? Cause I love the lake front parks too, and I'm not African American.
posted by agregoli at 1:33 PM on April 1, 2003
Who said you couldn't enjoy the lakefront parks no matter what your color?
But it's undeniably true that the vast majority of south side park users are black.
See Blair Kamen's Pulitzer Prize winning series about the Lakefront for more depth, such as this comment about Burnham Park that starts the second article:
"Nothing is more shameful about the Chicago lakefront than the fact that it is really two lakefronts -- one for those who are black and poor, and another for everybody else."
Very little has changed since '98.
posted by Jos Bleau at 2:01 PM on April 1, 2003
But it's undeniably true that the vast majority of south side park users are black.
See Blair Kamen's Pulitzer Prize winning series about the Lakefront for more depth, such as this comment about Burnham Park that starts the second article:
"Nothing is more shameful about the Chicago lakefront than the fact that it is really two lakefronts -- one for those who are black and poor, and another for everybody else."
Very little has changed since '98.
posted by Jos Bleau at 2:01 PM on April 1, 2003
Jos -- I'm not talking about what you see from LSD. I'm talking about the brand new park equipment at about 25 south, Hyde Park, and at Rainbow Beach. Not shoreline stuff, but park facilities. You should check them out sometime -- they're nice. And they all postdate Mr. Kamin's column.
posted by Mid at 3:50 PM on April 1, 2003
posted by Mid at 3:50 PM on April 1, 2003
Anyone who has ever done a Weight & Balance computation for a small GA plane (or had to tell Aunt Tillie that the second suitcase can't come on board) can tell you why they're silly as a terrorism threat. You can't put anything much in one - a Ryder truck is a hundred times more useful for doing bad stuff.
posted by anser at 7:01 PM on April 1, 2003
posted by anser at 7:01 PM on April 1, 2003
In early 2002, a 15-year-old student pilot committed suicide by flying a Cessna into the Bank of America building in Tampa. It's the only incident I'm aware of that involved a small plane and a highrise building. The building was slightly damaged.
The planes don't pose a significant danger. Terror is just a convenient tool Daley is using to get his way.
posted by letitrain at 8:01 PM on April 1, 2003
The planes don't pose a significant danger. Terror is just a convenient tool Daley is using to get his way.
posted by letitrain at 8:01 PM on April 1, 2003
letitrain, it hasn't been a good couple years in the plane vs. building department; there was also the Milan incident. I agree small planes crashing into buildings isn't an enormous threat, but there are other ways to use planes for terror. Is that really Daley's motivation? Some say it was finding out that Disney World had a no-fly zone, and Chicago didn't, that finally flipped his lid.
You have to see this as a riff in the longstanding opera of Chicago vs. Springfield as well as Chicago vs. Washington. For the first, one has to realize that the Peotone airport proposal wasn't merely to "relieve" O'Hare -- it was also to wrest control of the Chicago airports from the city, including lucrative gate leases. Certainly, the city has circled the wagons from the beginning. Over the years, Daley won more and more concessions from the state, and now with O'Hare being rebuilt to handle more traffic -- and temporary drops in air industry growth -- Peotone looks quite dead.
Also, Daley had good "ins" with the Clinton administration; one will recall his brother was Commerce Secretary for a while. That same brother was Al Gore's right-hand-man and looked to be his chief of staff in a Gore administration. With the closure of that access Daley was forced to switch to hardball.
I do have to admire the audacity of the move, even though I supported Meigs. I'm of more than one mind on this issue. I do support Daley's attention to the city amenities such as its world-class, but formerly neglected, park system. (One mustn't forget the Midway Plaisance Master Plan. I think the city's spending priorities could be adjusted but I hardly think the reconstruction on the South Side bears out charges of racism. Indeed, it's Daley's co-optation of the black Chicago machine that has been critical to his political success. Do they lack Kamin's vision? Probably.) I even like the idea of a marshland park on the lakefront. But I came to believe that Meigs was a unique amenity of another type that Chicago should cherish. In the end, I had long ago written it off as a future victim of the Daley steamroller. The man had taken back city control of the public schools from, it seemed, the always-striking teacher's union -- which had once seemed idle fantasy. I wouldn't put much past him after that. So I was resigned to this outcome.
[I will note here that my personal wish for the island's re-use would be reviving the Venetian whimsy of the Century of Progress exhibition, only this time with stone instead of plaster. Never happen.]
I don't see the closure putting much pressure on other airports. Those "30,000 landings" involved mostly GA which will move to other small airports like Palwaukee. The commercial traffic will move almost unnoticeably (especially in the present business climate) to regional carriers based at Midway and O'Hare. It does seem harsh to lose the heliport permanently, but that's something a little more easily relocated.
posted by dhartung at 11:38 PM on April 1, 2003
You have to see this as a riff in the longstanding opera of Chicago vs. Springfield as well as Chicago vs. Washington. For the first, one has to realize that the Peotone airport proposal wasn't merely to "relieve" O'Hare -- it was also to wrest control of the Chicago airports from the city, including lucrative gate leases. Certainly, the city has circled the wagons from the beginning. Over the years, Daley won more and more concessions from the state, and now with O'Hare being rebuilt to handle more traffic -- and temporary drops in air industry growth -- Peotone looks quite dead.
Also, Daley had good "ins" with the Clinton administration; one will recall his brother was Commerce Secretary for a while. That same brother was Al Gore's right-hand-man and looked to be his chief of staff in a Gore administration. With the closure of that access Daley was forced to switch to hardball.
I do have to admire the audacity of the move, even though I supported Meigs. I'm of more than one mind on this issue. I do support Daley's attention to the city amenities such as its world-class, but formerly neglected, park system. (One mustn't forget the Midway Plaisance Master Plan. I think the city's spending priorities could be adjusted but I hardly think the reconstruction on the South Side bears out charges of racism. Indeed, it's Daley's co-optation of the black Chicago machine that has been critical to his political success. Do they lack Kamin's vision? Probably.) I even like the idea of a marshland park on the lakefront. But I came to believe that Meigs was a unique amenity of another type that Chicago should cherish. In the end, I had long ago written it off as a future victim of the Daley steamroller. The man had taken back city control of the public schools from, it seemed, the always-striking teacher's union -- which had once seemed idle fantasy. I wouldn't put much past him after that. So I was resigned to this outcome.
[I will note here that my personal wish for the island's re-use would be reviving the Venetian whimsy of the Century of Progress exhibition, only this time with stone instead of plaster. Never happen.]
I don't see the closure putting much pressure on other airports. Those "30,000 landings" involved mostly GA which will move to other small airports like Palwaukee. The commercial traffic will move almost unnoticeably (especially in the present business climate) to regional carriers based at Midway and O'Hare. It does seem harsh to lose the heliport permanently, but that's something a little more easily relocated.
posted by dhartung at 11:38 PM on April 1, 2003
It seems that the unannounced disruption of ATC service would constitute a possible safety hazard.
It also seems that Daley is violating a Federal Air Regulation: FAR Part 157 says that: "Each person who intends to. . .Deactivate, discontinue using, or abandon an airport or any landing or takeoff area of an airport for a period of one year or more. . .shall notify the [FAA] Administrator."
What about the FBO located there? Way to torpedo a legal taxpaying business...
posted by Vidiot at 3:50 AM on April 2, 2003
It also seems that Daley is violating a Federal Air Regulation: FAR Part 157 says that: "Each person who intends to. . .Deactivate, discontinue using, or abandon an airport or any landing or takeoff area of an airport for a period of one year or more. . .shall notify the [FAA] Administrator."
What about the FBO located there? Way to torpedo a legal taxpaying business...
posted by Vidiot at 3:50 AM on April 2, 2003
Terrorism is nothing more than a straw man...Daley has wanted to this for more 6 years now, one of the few issues Daley and I don't see eye-to-eye on.
posted by Bag Man at 8:24 AM on April 2, 2003
posted by Bag Man at 8:24 AM on April 2, 2003
dhartung: but I hardly think the reconstruction on the South Side bears out charges of racism. Indeed, it's Daley's co-optation of the black Chicago machine that has been critical to his political success.
huh? shellacking the pockets of African American community leaders with proceeds from sweetheart real estate development deals as a demonstration of his lack of racism?
posted by victors at 10:15 AM on April 2, 2003
huh? shellacking the pockets of African American community leaders with proceeds from sweetheart real estate development deals as a demonstration of his lack of racism?
posted by victors at 10:15 AM on April 2, 2003
shellacking the pockets of African American community leaders with proceeds from sweetheart real estate development deals as a demonstration of his lack of racism
It's racist to give money to black leaders and rebuilt the infrastructure of the mostly black south side? victors, you're defeated by your own argument. Daley is not perfect, but he's done a lot of good for Chicago.
posted by Bag Man at 9:23 AM on April 3, 2003
It's racist to give money to black leaders and rebuilt the infrastructure of the mostly black south side? victors, you're defeated by your own argument. Daley is not perfect, but he's done a lot of good for Chicago.
posted by Bag Man at 9:23 AM on April 3, 2003
Daley is not perfect
We can agree on that much at least.
posted by thirteen at 2:45 PM on April 3, 2003
We can agree on that much at least.
posted by thirteen at 2:45 PM on April 3, 2003
victors, racism is one of those charges that in normal discourse one would require to be substantiated rather than refuted. If you're calling Daley a racist, serve up the goods, or be exposed as utilizing the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" fallacy.
posted by dhartung at 5:57 PM on April 3, 2003
posted by dhartung at 5:57 PM on April 3, 2003
dhartung: I stand corrected - I forgot about the Milan accident. That caused quite a bit of damage.
I'm curious if this is really the end, or if enough people in the aviation community sue the city to stop any further damage. Rebuilding a runway can't be too hard.
posted by letitrain at 10:17 AM on April 4, 2003
I'm curious if this is really the end, or if enough people in the aviation community sue the city to stop any further damage. Rebuilding a runway can't be too hard.
posted by letitrain at 10:17 AM on April 4, 2003
I blinked and missed these responses. As well as the actual accusation of racism. I guess I'm going to need yet another beating over the head in how this Fundamentalist Church of Objectivist Logic Over Emotion thing works:
If you stand up and say "...which is proof that I haven't beaten my wife" and then I ask "...how does that prove you haven't beaten your wife?" then you say "HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF BEATING MY WIFE" then what exactly am I supposed to do? Cower in a corner because I asked a question that doesn't meet the Objectivist Logic test of credibility? Even though you dropped the wife-beating thing from the sky? Uh, ok.
Thanks for everybody clearing that up.
posted by victors at 4:42 PM on April 4, 2003
If you stand up and say "...which is proof that I haven't beaten my wife" and then I ask "...how does that prove you haven't beaten your wife?" then you say "HOW DARE YOU ACCUSE ME OF BEATING MY WIFE" then what exactly am I supposed to do? Cower in a corner because I asked a question that doesn't meet the Objectivist Logic test of credibility? Even though you dropped the wife-beating thing from the sky? Uh, ok.
Thanks for everybody clearing that up.
posted by victors at 4:42 PM on April 4, 2003
I'm curious if this is really the end, or if enough people in the aviation community sue the city to stop any further damage.
A suit would likely not suceed. It's widely acknowledged and conceded that Daley had the power to do what he did. This does not change my feeling that what he did was wrong.
posted by Bag Man at 2:07 PM on April 15, 2003
A suit would likely not suceed. It's widely acknowledged and conceded that Daley had the power to do what he did. This does not change my feeling that what he did was wrong.
posted by Bag Man at 2:07 PM on April 15, 2003
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posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:41 AM on April 1, 2003