Anglo Women are an endangered species!
July 31, 2000 10:48 PM Subscribe
Anglo Women are an endangered species! Actually, it's time for me to post another diatribe and I didn't want to put it here. (More in first post)
Wow are you bitter. I really do hate to be rude, as I don't post here all that often, but maybe if you didn't have such a caveman attitude, you wouldn't go 6 years between girlfriends.
I'm not a "female person" as you seem to define the term. I'm just a plain old person. I like it that way. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate having a door opened for me or a chivalrous gesture. That's just to let you know my perspective.
The generalizations you make about women (or whatever you choose to call us) are just atrocious. HOW can you say that ALL women are anything? This is the same kind of crap I hear from the other side. The feminists saying that all women are this or that or the other thing. I'm sick and tired of being stereotyped because of my gender.
And if being a "sensitive new age guy" isn't the real you, why are you being one? If you can't be yourself, then the problem lies with you, not with anyone else.
posted by faith at 11:41 PM on July 31, 2000
I'm not a "female person" as you seem to define the term. I'm just a plain old person. I like it that way. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate having a door opened for me or a chivalrous gesture. That's just to let you know my perspective.
The generalizations you make about women (or whatever you choose to call us) are just atrocious. HOW can you say that ALL women are anything? This is the same kind of crap I hear from the other side. The feminists saying that all women are this or that or the other thing. I'm sick and tired of being stereotyped because of my gender.
And if being a "sensitive new age guy" isn't the real you, why are you being one? If you can't be yourself, then the problem lies with you, not with anyone else.
posted by faith at 11:41 PM on July 31, 2000
Despite what you might think, I'm not a [racist]. On the contrary, I like [blacks]. I've just come to hate [].
Steven -- I'll likely get fried for this myself, but I offer it as a sincere gesture meant to encourage you to really think about the position you're taking.
Why do you think you have the right to define what a woman is and isn't, or should and shouldn't be? What makes you feel entitled to do so? Perhaps it's that you already have the power to do so, in many ways.
posted by sudama at 12:41 AM on August 1, 2000 [1 favorite]
Steven -- I'll likely get fried for this myself, but I offer it as a sincere gesture meant to encourage you to really think about the position you're taking.
Why do you think you have the right to define what a woman is and isn't, or should and shouldn't be? What makes you feel entitled to do so? Perhaps it's that you already have the power to do so, in many ways.
posted by sudama at 12:41 AM on August 1, 2000 [1 favorite]
I think it took a lot of guts for Steven to share that. I didn't find it offensive at all.
posted by the webmistress at 1:11 AM on August 1, 2000
posted by the webmistress at 1:11 AM on August 1, 2000
Damn. Maybe instead of picking apart his words and taking everything he said personally, we should try and see the big picture - someone is telling us he's "terribly, dreadfully, horribly lonely".
"But he spelled vacation wrong!!!"
What ever happened to compassion?
-Jo
posted by the webmistress at 3:15 AM on August 1, 2000
"But he spelled vacation wrong!!!"
What ever happened to compassion?
-Jo
posted by the webmistress at 3:15 AM on August 1, 2000
"Unfortunately, two months later she was laid off, and as an upper class professional Anglo, I no longer have a way to make contact with that culture"
You need to change your life, Bud. Quit your job and start travelling.
posted by lagado at 4:50 AM on August 1, 2000
You need to change your life, Bud. Quit your job and start travelling.
posted by lagado at 4:50 AM on August 1, 2000
I wasn't offended by the essay, but I do have a few thoughts.
Sorry, Steve, sounds like you're whining that you can't get a date. So what? Lots of guys have the same problem. Instead of forcing it, just be yourself. If you want hugs, real hugs, then try to be a person's friend for a while first. Most people aren't comfortable cuddling up to people they don't really know. And just because you like to cuddle doesn't mean "they" have an obligation.
You are wrong that "anglo" women have somehow orchestrated a fundamental change to your great dating disadvantage. You just aren't hanging with the right crowd. It's up to you to change that, not "anglo female persons."
I agree with the previous comments that you should: (1)quit your job and get out more; (2)not make gross generalizations about a particular group such as "anglo women."
I also think you should not post pointers on Metafilter to your own site/your own essay in an effort to get feedback. I don't want to see what happens to MeFi if that starts becoming the norm.
posted by daveadams at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2000
Sorry, Steve, sounds like you're whining that you can't get a date. So what? Lots of guys have the same problem. Instead of forcing it, just be yourself. If you want hugs, real hugs, then try to be a person's friend for a while first. Most people aren't comfortable cuddling up to people they don't really know. And just because you like to cuddle doesn't mean "they" have an obligation.
You are wrong that "anglo" women have somehow orchestrated a fundamental change to your great dating disadvantage. You just aren't hanging with the right crowd. It's up to you to change that, not "anglo female persons."
I agree with the previous comments that you should: (1)quit your job and get out more; (2)not make gross generalizations about a particular group such as "anglo women."
I also think you should not post pointers on Metafilter to your own site/your own essay in an effort to get feedback. I don't want to see what happens to MeFi if that starts becoming the norm.
posted by daveadams at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2000
lagado is right, you do need to change your life. You as much as say so yourself. I might not agree with your generalizations about how women in the workplace can be, but I strongly support your bravery in admitting you are tired of the pattern that you have allowed to envelope you in middle age.
I've seen people successfully break out of middle age funks, and I've seen people allow themselves to be swallowed completely by the weight of responsibility, and what they believe others require from them.
Since I rarely post here, I don't know if this is the place to get into detailed specifics so I'm going to risk telling you something silly. You're right about not repeating the lap dances, that will ultimately only bury you in frustration over younger bodies than your own. But consider a kind of strange alternative. Ask someone at work to point you to a reputable salon or spa. Find yourself a good stylist and ask them to help you update your appearance. Get the massages and other folderol, get your glasses updated, and begin the process of ending the middle aged angst. Allow yourself to become happy with yourself. That doesn't mean becoming one of those sad balding guys guys in ponytails (and what's with the fast cars?) who try to pass for 29, but a man of comfort within himself at any age.
Once you allow yourself the luxury of comfort you will discover that there are a lot of women who feel the way you do. Middle age can be a marvelous time of life if you allow yourself the privileges that you have earned.
What you want isn't evil, it isn't hispanic or non gender specific, it is universal. It becomes a lot easier to find once you remove the weight of grief from your own shoulders.
posted by Sqwerty at 8:51 AM on August 1, 2000
I've seen people successfully break out of middle age funks, and I've seen people allow themselves to be swallowed completely by the weight of responsibility, and what they believe others require from them.
Since I rarely post here, I don't know if this is the place to get into detailed specifics so I'm going to risk telling you something silly. You're right about not repeating the lap dances, that will ultimately only bury you in frustration over younger bodies than your own. But consider a kind of strange alternative. Ask someone at work to point you to a reputable salon or spa. Find yourself a good stylist and ask them to help you update your appearance. Get the massages and other folderol, get your glasses updated, and begin the process of ending the middle aged angst. Allow yourself to become happy with yourself. That doesn't mean becoming one of those sad balding guys guys in ponytails (and what's with the fast cars?) who try to pass for 29, but a man of comfort within himself at any age.
Once you allow yourself the luxury of comfort you will discover that there are a lot of women who feel the way you do. Middle age can be a marvelous time of life if you allow yourself the privileges that you have earned.
What you want isn't evil, it isn't hispanic or non gender specific, it is universal. It becomes a lot easier to find once you remove the weight of grief from your own shoulders.
posted by Sqwerty at 8:51 AM on August 1, 2000
Oh my. Where do I begin? You might want to read the book Shadow Syndromes - it sounds like with your difficulty reading people, you may be one of the people with a very very mild form of autism (something I think I have myself).
And I think it's sad that you're alone and hurt, but I fail to believe that white women are out to emasculate you.
Is there anything else that makes you feel like a man besides being with a woman? Please tell me there's more to it than that.
Maybe you should try an online dating service or something - let a woman get to know your mind a little bit before you go out.
It isn't an insult to be asked out on a date, and it sure as hell isn't sexual discrimination.
I guess you've never been asked out by someone you consider extremely creepy, then have to feel like a jerk for rejecting them, and since you work together, you have to see them five days a week and feel incredibly uncomfortable whenever you see them. Gee, great work environment.
There are appropriate times to ask someone out, and in my limited experience, it usually involves:
- After you know them a bit and get the feeling that they kind of like you.
- At a social gathering, which can be an after-work get-together among co-workers, for instance.
I don't know where you got the idea that people think it's wrong for a man to love a woman. I don't know anyone who thinks this. I do, however, know lots of people (including myself) who think that women in the workplace would rather get their jobs done than be seen as sexual gratification objects.
Except if the workplace is a strip club, in which case, that's the whole point.
posted by beth at 8:54 AM on August 1, 2000 [1 favorite]
Hm, what happened to the passels of MeFi readers who customarily beat people up for linking to their own sites? Does Den Beste get off without complaint because he says he's lonely? Well, I'll say it: dude, it is not cool to post a link to your own site. At least find some other relevant link about the issue, and then link to your own stuff within the topic.
As for what you actually wrote, I find it totally ludicrous and sad. The only "real woman" you've met in six years was a stripper? "Anglo women" aren't really women? I suspect what you mean by "women" is "attractive to you". If you aren't attracted to the career-oriented Anglo women you work with, that's you, not them. Maybe you should expand your social circle; join a book club or hey, it's an election year, volunteer for a political campaign or a cause you believe in.
Many of your complaints seem to revolve around the fact that the women at your workplace don't treat you "like a man", which seems to mean, no touching, flirting, etc. Of course they don't-- it's ethically questionable to get involved with your co-workers and most people steer clear of it. Like Beth says, there are just too many pitfalls to flirting and dating with the people you have to see at work every day.
Anyway, here I am giving your essay more play when what I mean to say is, please don't post front page links to your own stuff.
posted by wiremommy at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2000
As for what you actually wrote, I find it totally ludicrous and sad. The only "real woman" you've met in six years was a stripper? "Anglo women" aren't really women? I suspect what you mean by "women" is "attractive to you". If you aren't attracted to the career-oriented Anglo women you work with, that's you, not them. Maybe you should expand your social circle; join a book club or hey, it's an election year, volunteer for a political campaign or a cause you believe in.
Many of your complaints seem to revolve around the fact that the women at your workplace don't treat you "like a man", which seems to mean, no touching, flirting, etc. Of course they don't-- it's ethically questionable to get involved with your co-workers and most people steer clear of it. Like Beth says, there are just too many pitfalls to flirting and dating with the people you have to see at work every day.
Anyway, here I am giving your essay more play when what I mean to say is, please don't post front page links to your own stuff.
posted by wiremommy at 10:46 AM on August 1, 2000
what happened to the passels of MeFi readers who customarily beat people up for linking to their own sites?
Hey, I said something, of course it was buried in my post.
But I agree with Beth on this. It's the creepy factor. It's creepy to get asked out on a date by someone you have to spend time with who you aren't interested in. You start being suspicious of everything that person does and go out of your way to avoid them. And since most people don't go looking for love at the office, it seems that isn't the best setting to ask someone out. It's best to become friends with them first.
Oh, and NEVER POST A LINK TO YOUR OWN SITE ON METAFILTER.
posted by daveadams at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2000
Hey, I said something, of course it was buried in my post.
But I agree with Beth on this. It's the creepy factor. It's creepy to get asked out on a date by someone you have to spend time with who you aren't interested in. You start being suspicious of everything that person does and go out of your way to avoid them. And since most people don't go looking for love at the office, it seems that isn't the best setting to ask someone out. It's best to become friends with them first.
Oh, and NEVER POST A LINK TO YOUR OWN SITE ON METAFILTER.
posted by daveadams at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2000
Wiremonkey! That belongs in Metatalk. Bad monkey! (-:
As for the essay itself, without knowing Steve, he seems like a little boy who's body grew up but his mind didn't.
You know why the strippers treated you that way? They knew it's what you wanted, and it would keep you coming back. The sex industry thrives on people like that.
I get hugs all the time, without paying for them. From my close friends.
if I was a better person, I'd have just ignored this like most other mf regulars.
posted by alana at 11:32 AM on August 1, 2000
As for the essay itself, without knowing Steve, he seems like a little boy who's body grew up but his mind didn't.
You know why the strippers treated you that way? They knew it's what you wanted, and it would keep you coming back. The sex industry thrives on people like that.
I get hugs all the time, without paying for them. From my close friends.
if I was a better person, I'd have just ignored this like most other mf regulars.
posted by alana at 11:32 AM on August 1, 2000
It already is on metatalk...I posted it last night.
As for the essay in question, all I can say is, I pity people who feel that all their problems and personal inadequecies can be blamed entirely on outside sources.
"It isn't MY FAULT I gained this weight - it is the fault of the Twinkie makers, damn them!"
posted by kristin at 12:04 PM on August 1, 2000
As for the essay in question, all I can say is, I pity people who feel that all their problems and personal inadequecies can be blamed entirely on outside sources.
"It isn't MY FAULT I gained this weight - it is the fault of the Twinkie makers, damn them!"
posted by kristin at 12:04 PM on August 1, 2000
I'm really gonna try to work up some pity for this guy.....Ok, I'm done trying. While there is nothing funny about the intense lonliness and depression this guy is going through, the finger need not be pointed at feminism, or workplace politics or whatever.
Take a moment a poke around his site. He fancies himself a philosopher of sorts. I won't get into the individual opinions he expresses, god know's he's entitled to them (even if some of them are mystifyingly stupid and backward). Almost every opinion and statement on this guys' site is expressed with an utterly stunning level of arrogance and self assuredness. In the short time I spent reading this guys post and his other rants, I got a pretty good idea how a typical party-type "flirting" comversation would go.
Him: (spotting a woman standing alone . Selects his target and approaches) "Hi there"
Her: (realizing that escape is impossible) "Oh, um...hi...what's up?"
Him: "Six years ago I broke up with my last girlfriend after eight years together, and what I'm finding is that there are no women around me anymore. I don't remember it being like this 14 years ago. I spent six years trying to accept that I was no longer a man and accepting my role as a male person; trying to become comfortable with the fact that I would spend the rest of my life alone, surrounded by female persons but not having any contact with women, any kind of contact at all, physical or otherwise. CAN I HUG YOU????? PLEASE???"
Hard to figure out why this guy has a hard time getting laid. Oh well, bad news for him, good news for the gene pool.
posted by Optamystic at 12:15 PM on August 1, 2000
Take a moment a poke around his site. He fancies himself a philosopher of sorts. I won't get into the individual opinions he expresses, god know's he's entitled to them (even if some of them are mystifyingly stupid and backward). Almost every opinion and statement on this guys' site is expressed with an utterly stunning level of arrogance and self assuredness. In the short time I spent reading this guys post and his other rants, I got a pretty good idea how a typical party-type "flirting" comversation would go.
Him: (spotting a woman standing alone . Selects his target and approaches) "Hi there"
Her: (realizing that escape is impossible) "Oh, um...hi...what's up?"
Him: "Six years ago I broke up with my last girlfriend after eight years together, and what I'm finding is that there are no women around me anymore. I don't remember it being like this 14 years ago. I spent six years trying to accept that I was no longer a man and accepting my role as a male person; trying to become comfortable with the fact that I would spend the rest of my life alone, surrounded by female persons but not having any contact with women, any kind of contact at all, physical or otherwise. CAN I HUG YOU????? PLEASE???"
Hard to figure out why this guy has a hard time getting laid. Oh well, bad news for him, good news for the gene pool.
posted by Optamystic at 12:15 PM on August 1, 2000
Some of you are kind of reminding me of the insightful help offered by Jerry Springer audiences.
posted by Sqwerty at 12:40 PM on August 1, 2000
posted by Sqwerty at 12:40 PM on August 1, 2000
Please continue this topic in this thread. I find it most interesting.
posted by ZachsMind at 1:45 PM on August 1, 2000
posted by ZachsMind at 1:45 PM on August 1, 2000
Um being in a strip club does not make you a man it makes you an ATM. Half the Girls hate you and the other half like you for the money. They are not woman, not female persons, they are plastic with a little magnetic strip that sucks cash right out of you. Go to a dance club, learn to dance. Go to a coffee shop learn to talk to people. Participants only, no spectators.
posted by valintin23 at 3:13 AM on August 2, 2000
posted by valintin23 at 3:13 AM on August 2, 2000
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Despite what you might think, I'm not a misogynist. On the contrary, I like women. I've just come to hate female persons. The article explains the distinction.
The problem with some revolutions is that the benefits are primarily enjoyed by one group and the cost is paid primarily by another. I'm in the latter group and I'm fed up with it. And I'm terribly, dreadfully, horribly lonely because of it.
I desperately need a hug. And the only way I can get one these days is to buy it.
I'm damned sick of being a "sensitive new age guy." Things have gone too far; it's time for the women, or rather the "female persons" to give back a bit.
(And boy am I gonna get fried for this.)
posted by Steven Den Beste at 11:07 PM on July 31, 2000