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October 4, 2003 10:41 AM Subscribe
Wiggaz.com, your online source for wiggers, white rappers, gangsters and wigger culture.
Most wiggers set off my gaydar. Must be the youth, the wife-beaters, and the exposed underwear. Don't think that's the image they want to project, but nine out of ten Helens agree: wiggers are homoerotic.
posted by WolfDaddy at 11:43 AM on October 4, 2003
posted by WolfDaddy at 11:43 AM on October 4, 2003
the fact that this is embraced scares me. it seems like a movie stereotype that came true.
posted by asterisk at 11:52 AM on October 4, 2003
posted by asterisk at 11:52 AM on October 4, 2003
Here's a thought--
From minstrelsy to blues to jazz to rap, the central engine of American culture is the appropriation and interpetation of African-American art forms by white and nonwhite--but not black--men and women. It is an homage and, quite often, simultaneously, a denigration, but always an appropriation of one group's culture by outsiders. As soon one art form is assimilated by those outside the core black culture, it becomes unpalatable to the cutting edge of those within, and a new style is born--over and over and over. Ironies abound in this eternal push me-pull you--those who assimilate the abandoned forms preserve them for the children of the originators. (See Martin $corce$e Pre$ents the Blue$ on PBS for a current example.) In a way, it's always Halloween in America and we all wear blackface, shuckin' and jivin', just like on the record, just like in the movies, just like on TV, just like we imagine them to be. It's A Black Thing and we think we understand.
And yet in this is all the beauty and power of American culture.
posted by y2karl at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2003
From minstrelsy to blues to jazz to rap, the central engine of American culture is the appropriation and interpetation of African-American art forms by white and nonwhite--but not black--men and women. It is an homage and, quite often, simultaneously, a denigration, but always an appropriation of one group's culture by outsiders. As soon one art form is assimilated by those outside the core black culture, it becomes unpalatable to the cutting edge of those within, and a new style is born--over and over and over. Ironies abound in this eternal push me-pull you--those who assimilate the abandoned forms preserve them for the children of the originators. (See Martin $corce$e Pre$ents the Blue$ on PBS for a current example.) In a way, it's always Halloween in America and we all wear blackface, shuckin' and jivin', just like on the record, just like in the movies, just like on TV, just like we imagine them to be. It's A Black Thing and we think we understand.
And yet in this is all the beauty and power of American culture.
posted by y2karl at 12:47 PM on October 4, 2003
the central engine of American culture is the appropriation and interpetation of African-American art forms by white and nonwhite
Your comment seems to suggest the appropriation only goes one way.
posted by piskycritter at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2003
Your comment seems to suggest the appropriation only goes one way.
posted by piskycritter at 12:58 PM on October 4, 2003
Your comment seems to suggest the appropriation only goes one way.
Well, pretty much so. Otherwise, I suppose those hordes of black teenagers playing and singing bluegrass, rockabilly and country & western--not to mention talking in hokey imitation hillbilly dialects--would certainly belie that presumption. Look how popular Hee Haw reruns on BET are, after all.
posted by y2karl at 2:43 PM on October 4, 2003
Well, pretty much so. Otherwise, I suppose those hordes of black teenagers playing and singing bluegrass, rockabilly and country & western--not to mention talking in hokey imitation hillbilly dialects--would certainly belie that presumption. Look how popular Hee Haw reruns on BET are, after all.
posted by y2karl at 2:43 PM on October 4, 2003
Goddamn do i hate Wiggers. All my friends have turned started wearing trucker caps and indie shit, wearing the hat in "just" the cool way... Bunch of white kids alienated by their own culture.
posted by Keyser Soze at 2:44 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by Keyser Soze at 2:44 PM on October 4, 2003
How do you relate Trucker Caps and black culture? I'm fairly sure Trucker Caps are more a white-trash thing. Besides, this definitely falls under the "so sad it's funny" category. We sure need more of that.
posted by Veritron at 2:51 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by Veritron at 2:51 PM on October 4, 2003
One of the the key inspirations of hiphop was European proto-techno music such as Kraftwork, etc. Planet Rock is basically just a reworking of a Kraftwork song. So yes, the appropriation does go both ways.
Incidentally, one of the primary influences of the Neptunes are 70's soft rock bands like America and Steely Dan.
posted by Spacelegoman at 2:54 PM on October 4, 2003
Incidentally, one of the primary influences of the Neptunes are 70's soft rock bands like America and Steely Dan.
posted by Spacelegoman at 2:54 PM on October 4, 2003
One of the the key inspirations of hiphop was European proto-techno music such as Kraftwork, etc
Oh, for Christ's sake...
posted by y2karl at 3:00 PM on October 4, 2003
Oh, for Christ's sake...
posted by y2karl at 3:00 PM on October 4, 2003
Ummm.... what?
posted by Spacelegoman at 3:14 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by Spacelegoman at 3:14 PM on October 4, 2003
Excelleng observation, y2karl, but I'd have to say the black influence tends to be strongest in terms of music; not to discount the contribution to other art forms, but from gospel to blues to rock to hip hop, virtually every form of popular music draws its inspiration from black beginnings, then tries to spin it in its own direction.
But what's most interesting about hip hop is the appropriation goes beyond the music to the entire culture. I mean, I don't recall white kids in the sixties dressing up like the temptations and learning the choreographed dance steps; disco (yet another appropriad genre) might be the closest parallel.
I guess I don't get it. Eric Clapton might have appropriated blues styles, but I don't recall that he made an effort to dress in the same manner as his heroes or cut his hair in the same fashion.
posted by kgasmart at 3:24 PM on October 4, 2003
But what's most interesting about hip hop is the appropriation goes beyond the music to the entire culture. I mean, I don't recall white kids in the sixties dressing up like the temptations and learning the choreographed dance steps; disco (yet another appropriad genre) might be the closest parallel.
I guess I don't get it. Eric Clapton might have appropriated blues styles, but I don't recall that he made an effort to dress in the same manner as his heroes or cut his hair in the same fashion.
posted by kgasmart at 3:24 PM on October 4, 2003
I remember going to a dirty and rundown record store whose sign celebrated "15 years in the ghetto" back in the late 80s. Posters everywhere of the latest of 80s rappers, blacklights of topless black women smoking joints, and the cover of Kraftwerk's Trans Europe Express. Kraftwerk was sampled almost as much as James Brown in those early days of hip hop.
So not for Christ's sake, for for Ralf and Florian's.
posted by spartacusroosevelt at 3:30 PM on October 4, 2003
So not for Christ's sake, for for Ralf and Florian's.
posted by spartacusroosevelt at 3:30 PM on October 4, 2003
Your comment seems to suggest the appropriation only goes one way.
Well, pretty much so
It's disproportionately white appropriating black culture but not entirely so. Many blues singers such as Howlin' Wolf and Bobby Bland have cited Jimmie Rodgers as an influence, and many of the male soul crooners like Marvin Gaye were influenced by Sinatra. George Clinton of P-Funk has cited both Frank Zappa and The MC5 as influence.
Hell, my cube mate at work, a black guy who grew up on the South Side of Chicago told me that Black Sabbath was hugely popular among his crew growing up in the 70's and 80's.
One of the the key inspirations of hiphop was European proto-techno music such as Kraftwork, etc
Oh, for Christ's sake...
Maybe not culturally, but Kraftwerks rhythms and electronic sounds were an early precursor.
And yet in this is all the beauty and power of American culture.
True enough.
Keyser Soze:Bunch of white kids alienated by their own culture.
Is that supposed an insult? An assertion of cool? First of all you see to be confusing indie rock and hip-hop culture. But
Obviously, I'm not going to try and argue that hip-hop isn't a black originated art form, but that means what exactly? White people can't enjoy it or feel it? Be influenced by it? Yes, it's odd that some white kids seem to thinhk that black culture is all bling-bling and badassery or that white culture dosent have it's own legacy of the same, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Besides like karl says it's when musical genres collide across cultural lines that the best music results. Unless you're some kid of purist idiot.
Quite frankly I think you're statement is racist if you wanna know the truth. "That hip-hop stuff is for black folks. Go listen to some nice white music."
posted by jonmc at 3:40 PM on October 4, 2003
Well, pretty much so
It's disproportionately white appropriating black culture but not entirely so. Many blues singers such as Howlin' Wolf and Bobby Bland have cited Jimmie Rodgers as an influence, and many of the male soul crooners like Marvin Gaye were influenced by Sinatra. George Clinton of P-Funk has cited both Frank Zappa and The MC5 as influence.
Hell, my cube mate at work, a black guy who grew up on the South Side of Chicago told me that Black Sabbath was hugely popular among his crew growing up in the 70's and 80's.
One of the the key inspirations of hiphop was European proto-techno music such as Kraftwork, etc
Oh, for Christ's sake...
Maybe not culturally, but Kraftwerks rhythms and electronic sounds were an early precursor.
And yet in this is all the beauty and power of American culture.
True enough.
Keyser Soze:Bunch of white kids alienated by their own culture.
Is that supposed an insult? An assertion of cool? First of all you see to be confusing indie rock and hip-hop culture. But
Obviously, I'm not going to try and argue that hip-hop isn't a black originated art form, but that means what exactly? White people can't enjoy it or feel it? Be influenced by it? Yes, it's odd that some white kids seem to thinhk that black culture is all bling-bling and badassery or that white culture dosent have it's own legacy of the same, but that's a whole other can of worms.
Besides like karl says it's when musical genres collide across cultural lines that the best music results. Unless you're some kid of purist idiot.
Quite frankly I think you're statement is racist if you wanna know the truth. "That hip-hop stuff is for black folks. Go listen to some nice white music."
posted by jonmc at 3:40 PM on October 4, 2003
I was wondering when the Racistfilter™ card would be played.
posted by Veritron at 3:43 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by Veritron at 3:43 PM on October 4, 2003
"Planet Rock" (a huge influence on Detroit Techno, the Miami sound, and House/Trance) is one of his timeless hip-hop classics. Which is Trans Europe Express. But with more words.
posted by punilux at 3:47 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by punilux at 3:47 PM on October 4, 2003
"I was wondering when the Racistfilter™ card would be played."
I thought the poster led with it.
"Wigger"?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:48 PM on October 4, 2003
I thought the poster led with it.
"Wigger"?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 3:48 PM on October 4, 2003
I mean, I don't recall white kids in the sixties dressing up like the temptations and learning the choreographed dance steps; disco (yet another appropriate genre) might be the closest parallel.
In Salina, Kansas in 1966 and 1967, where I finished high school, things had not yet changed--socially, de facto segregation was the rule: all the black families lived across the railroad tracks and never shopped in downtown stores. The school was integrated but there was no social contact between black and white students. I remember my civics teacher, a retired army officer, liked to force black students to get up and denounce that communist Martin Luther King in class. And the one home grown (rich kids') band in the town did the works of James Brown, complete with the capes routine in Please, Please Me.
The hottest band in the midwest dance circuit then was Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders--yet another white James Brown routine. The favorite nightime radio shows were Wolfman Jack, broadcasting from XERF, across the Rio Grande from Del Rio, Texas, and Stan The Man's Record Hour, out of Shreveport, Louisiana. Both played exclusively blues, r&b and soul. (Mind you, this was long before American Graffiti--Wolfman Jack was a total mystery then. No one knew if he was white or black.)
Kraftwerk was sampled almost as much as James Brown in those early days of hip hop.
I don't doubt that people like Afrika Bambaata had eclectic record collections but, as the links from The-Breaks.com show, that is simply wishful thinking.
posted by y2karl at 4:14 PM on October 4, 2003
In Salina, Kansas in 1966 and 1967, where I finished high school, things had not yet changed--socially, de facto segregation was the rule: all the black families lived across the railroad tracks and never shopped in downtown stores. The school was integrated but there was no social contact between black and white students. I remember my civics teacher, a retired army officer, liked to force black students to get up and denounce that communist Martin Luther King in class. And the one home grown (rich kids') band in the town did the works of James Brown, complete with the capes routine in Please, Please Me.
The hottest band in the midwest dance circuit then was Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders--yet another white James Brown routine. The favorite nightime radio shows were Wolfman Jack, broadcasting from XERF, across the Rio Grande from Del Rio, Texas, and Stan The Man's Record Hour, out of Shreveport, Louisiana. Both played exclusively blues, r&b and soul. (Mind you, this was long before American Graffiti--Wolfman Jack was a total mystery then. No one knew if he was white or black.)
Kraftwerk was sampled almost as much as James Brown in those early days of hip hop.
I don't doubt that people like Afrika Bambaata had eclectic record collections but, as the links from The-Breaks.com show, that is simply wishful thinking.
posted by y2karl at 4:14 PM on October 4, 2003
Eric Clapton might have appropriated blues styles, but I don't recall that he made an effort to dress in the same manner as his heroes or cut his hair in the same fashion.
Elvis Presley, the original "Wigger" (can we just accept that white kids like rap music and please retire that disgusting term?).
posted by Eamon at 4:29 PM on October 4, 2003
Elvis Presley, the original "Wigger" (can we just accept that white kids like rap music and please retire that disgusting term?).
posted by Eamon at 4:29 PM on October 4, 2003
And the one home grown (rich kids') band in the town did the works of James Brown, complete with the capes routine in Please, Please Me.
I Think you mean "Please, Please, Please," but I'd dig Brother JB covering the Beatles.
In Salina, Kansas in 1966 and 1967, where I finished high school,...The favorite nightime radio shows were Wolfman Jack, broadcasting from XERF, across the Rio Grande from Del Rio, Texas, and Stan The Man's Record Hour, out of Shreveport, Louisiana. Both played exclusively blues, r&b and soul
I don't doubt the veracity of your description at all, but my fathers and uncles and numerous freinds grew up in working-class sections of New York City around the same time and listened to Murray the K, Scott Muni, and the rest of the crew, who would play Aretha Franklin, followed by Dylan, followed by the Shangri-La's followed by The Beatles and then Gene Pitney. Everybody at ears and picked up all those influences conciously or unconciously and the fact that there was so much good music-white and black- at that time is what made such a good time to be a rock and roller, and it's legacy can still be heard today, if you listen hard enough.
The hottest band in the midwest dance circuit then was Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders--yet another white James Brown routine.
I've heard some of Wayne's stuff, it ain't half bad. Hell, Mitch Ryder & The Detroit Wheels did a similar thing in Detroit. The difference being, in a majority black city with plenty of R&B bands they had to be that much better to get over, and get over they did. And I'm glad cause despite all the surrounding stuff in the end it's all about the music.
posted by jonmc at 4:31 PM on October 4, 2003
I Think you mean "Please, Please, Please," but I'd dig Brother JB covering the Beatles.
In Salina, Kansas in 1966 and 1967, where I finished high school,...The favorite nightime radio shows were Wolfman Jack, broadcasting from XERF, across the Rio Grande from Del Rio, Texas, and Stan The Man's Record Hour, out of Shreveport, Louisiana. Both played exclusively blues, r&b and soul
I don't doubt the veracity of your description at all, but my fathers and uncles and numerous freinds grew up in working-class sections of New York City around the same time and listened to Murray the K, Scott Muni, and the rest of the crew, who would play Aretha Franklin, followed by Dylan, followed by the Shangri-La's followed by The Beatles and then Gene Pitney. Everybody at ears and picked up all those influences conciously or unconciously and the fact that there was so much good music-white and black- at that time is what made such a good time to be a rock and roller, and it's legacy can still be heard today, if you listen hard enough.
The hottest band in the midwest dance circuit then was Wayne Cochran and the C.C. Riders--yet another white James Brown routine.
I've heard some of Wayne's stuff, it ain't half bad. Hell, Mitch Ryder & The Detroit Wheels did a similar thing in Detroit. The difference being, in a majority black city with plenty of R&B bands they had to be that much better to get over, and get over they did. And I'm glad cause despite all the surrounding stuff in the end it's all about the music.
posted by jonmc at 4:31 PM on October 4, 2003
Wait... Mitch Ryder is white? I thought he was just... eccentric.
posted by Eamon at 4:33 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by Eamon at 4:33 PM on October 4, 2003
As a fashion, the "wigga" look is lifted from whatever latest thrift/discount-store look has surfaced in the ghettos. Ski caps, parkas, parachute pants, "wifebeaters", doo rags, sun visors, and now mesh trucker caps are all directly taken from the lower-classes of inner-cities and brought to the suburbs where it is worn by white kids. It's been that way at least since the Beastie Boys became famous.
But posuers are posuers, no matter what color their skin may be.
posted by Down10 at 4:36 PM on October 4, 2003
But posuers are posuers, no matter what color their skin may be.
posted by Down10 at 4:36 PM on October 4, 2003
Recently, when spouting off about how much I love Motorhead, my roomate's grilfriend asked me how long I'd been white. I was stunned by her ignorance.
We live cheek to jowl our whole lives, go to the same stores and schools, watch the same TV, how could we not be influenced by one another?
I do agree with Karl, that the appropration does seem to mostly go one way, but so what? It just proves how innovative and durable black culture is.
Don't think for a minute that 50 Cent doesn't know whose really buying all his records...
Oh, and peep this, Albert Murray, The Omni-Americans: "In this collection of essays, Murray argued that black and white Americans are partners, willing or unwilling, in a single enterprise: "For all their traditional antagonisms and obvious differences, the so-called black and so-called white people of the united states resemble nobody else in the world so much as they resemble each other. after establishing this point to his satisfaction, murray saw no reason to pay lip service to either group. thus he proceeded to pour out his comical, non-discriminatory disdain a wide range of targets, from the black nationalist movement and the 1969 moynihan report black families, to protest fiction and the ku klux klan."
posted by black8 at 4:47 PM on October 4, 2003
We live cheek to jowl our whole lives, go to the same stores and schools, watch the same TV, how could we not be influenced by one another?
I do agree with Karl, that the appropration does seem to mostly go one way, but so what? It just proves how innovative and durable black culture is.
Don't think for a minute that 50 Cent doesn't know whose really buying all his records...
Oh, and peep this, Albert Murray, The Omni-Americans: "In this collection of essays, Murray argued that black and white Americans are partners, willing or unwilling, in a single enterprise: "For all their traditional antagonisms and obvious differences, the so-called black and so-called white people of the united states resemble nobody else in the world so much as they resemble each other. after establishing this point to his satisfaction, murray saw no reason to pay lip service to either group. thus he proceeded to pour out his comical, non-discriminatory disdain a wide range of targets, from the black nationalist movement and the 1969 moynihan report black families, to protest fiction and the ku klux klan."
posted by black8 at 4:47 PM on October 4, 2003
Thank's for that Murray quote black8, and of course you love Motorhead because you can't escape the iron first.
posted by jonmc at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2003
posted by jonmc at 4:51 PM on October 4, 2003
Well, for a fact, jonmc--and *blush* good catch on Please, Please, Please--we had a thing called Top 40 radio where you could hear Buck Owens, the Beatles and James Brown all on the same stations. The other big nighttime station was KOMA out of Oklahoma City, if I recall. Wolfman Jack and Stan the Man were an elite cool kid thing.
As for Elvis, his family was dirt poor, which was true for the all the rockabilly artists on Sun and Sam Phillips himself--all of them listened to Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Howling Wolf, Big Boy Crudup as well as Hank Williams and Bill Monroe. Sam Phillips claimed that the background of poverty and hard knocks was why Elvis could sing the blues, and I think he has a point there. And Elvis was a character out of time--I mean, here was a guy who wore eyeliner in high school.
This is one thing once true of the south--there wasn't this divide between the races as far as music was concerned. Black people in the south used to listen to the Grand Old Opry as well as the King Biscuit Flower Hour.
One of my friends who went down south and met all the blues singers living then--people like Sleepy John Estes, Furry Lewis, Yank Rachel and so forth. He'd visit them at their homes and they'd be watching Hee Haw and Bonanza on TV. He said almost all of them would mention Roy Clark as their favorite guitarist. Hell, B.B. King is on the record on that.
posted by y2karl at 4:55 PM on October 4, 2003
As for Elvis, his family was dirt poor, which was true for the all the rockabilly artists on Sun and Sam Phillips himself--all of them listened to Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Howling Wolf, Big Boy Crudup as well as Hank Williams and Bill Monroe. Sam Phillips claimed that the background of poverty and hard knocks was why Elvis could sing the blues, and I think he has a point there. And Elvis was a character out of time--I mean, here was a guy who wore eyeliner in high school.
This is one thing once true of the south--there wasn't this divide between the races as far as music was concerned. Black people in the south used to listen to the Grand Old Opry as well as the King Biscuit Flower Hour.
One of my friends who went down south and met all the blues singers living then--people like Sleepy John Estes, Furry Lewis, Yank Rachel and so forth. He'd visit them at their homes and they'd be watching Hee Haw and Bonanza on TV. He said almost all of them would mention Roy Clark as their favorite guitarist. Hell, B.B. King is on the record on that.
posted by y2karl at 4:55 PM on October 4, 2003
He said almost all of them would mention Roy Clark as their favorite guitarist. Hell, B.B. King is on the record on that.
Hey, Roy's got some chops. About a week ago I was doing laundry and while my clothes dried, I ducked around the corner for a beer at this Irish dive. I got into a conversation with these two mid 50's Queens micks and eventually the topic turned to music and both of them identified themselves as fans of "oldies" and no shit, country and western; they were paricularly fond of Buck Owens, Chet Atkins and...Roy Clark.
That stuff can really travel.
We live cheek to jowl our whole lives, go to the same stores and schools, watch the same TV, how could we not be influenced by one another?
Esp. in the northeast. I started working around age 15 as a busboy in a discount steakhouse. The staff was about 50/50 black and white, and when we put on music it alternated between all kinds of stuff, but mainly hip-hop and hard-rock/heavy metal. It rubbed off, I'm sure, so the phenomenon of the "wigger" is only natural to a degree. Sadly the collison of the two forms of music we listened to in those days resulted in one good album and a lotta tripe.
I'd say "what went wrong?" but I'd say it was idiot artists and record execs who didn't realize that metal is more than distorted guitars and rap is more than talking in rhyme.
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on October 4, 2003
Hey, Roy's got some chops. About a week ago I was doing laundry and while my clothes dried, I ducked around the corner for a beer at this Irish dive. I got into a conversation with these two mid 50's Queens micks and eventually the topic turned to music and both of them identified themselves as fans of "oldies" and no shit, country and western; they were paricularly fond of Buck Owens, Chet Atkins and...Roy Clark.
That stuff can really travel.
We live cheek to jowl our whole lives, go to the same stores and schools, watch the same TV, how could we not be influenced by one another?
Esp. in the northeast. I started working around age 15 as a busboy in a discount steakhouse. The staff was about 50/50 black and white, and when we put on music it alternated between all kinds of stuff, but mainly hip-hop and hard-rock/heavy metal. It rubbed off, I'm sure, so the phenomenon of the "wigger" is only natural to a degree. Sadly the collison of the two forms of music we listened to in those days resulted in one good album and a lotta tripe.
I'd say "what went wrong?" but I'd say it was idiot artists and record execs who didn't realize that metal is more than distorted guitars and rap is more than talking in rhyme.
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on October 4, 2003
I don't recall that he made an effort to dress in the same manner as his heroes or cut his hair in the same fashion.Look for some pics of Eric when he was with Cream.
posted by mischief at 6:11 PM on October 4, 2003
"Discount Steakhouse?!" ;)
It rubbed off, I'm sure, so the phenomenon of the "wigger" is only natural to a degree.
Yeah, my folks (who are both form the south) bought all kinds of stuff into our house-Henry Mancini, Santana, Booker T & the MGs, Sinatra, Jimmy Smith, B.B. King, Johnny Mathis and Guy Lombardo (!)-but one of the biggest shocks of my young life was seeing Bowie on Soul Train doing "Fame"...("You mean a white guy does that song?!")
Did any of you catch Roy Clark and Clarence Gatemouth Brown on Austin City Limits years ago?! I was 13 and blown away. Freakin' amazing.
posted by black8 at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2003
It rubbed off, I'm sure, so the phenomenon of the "wigger" is only natural to a degree.
Yeah, my folks (who are both form the south) bought all kinds of stuff into our house-Henry Mancini, Santana, Booker T & the MGs, Sinatra, Jimmy Smith, B.B. King, Johnny Mathis and Guy Lombardo (!)-but one of the biggest shocks of my young life was seeing Bowie on Soul Train doing "Fame"...("You mean a white guy does that song?!")
Did any of you catch Roy Clark and Clarence Gatemouth Brown on Austin City Limits years ago?! I was 13 and blown away. Freakin' amazing.
posted by black8 at 6:18 PM on October 4, 2003
Look for some pics of Eric when he was with Cream.
I dunno, I don't quite recall Robert Johnson with a big 'fro and psychedelic painted guitar...
posted by kgasmart at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2003
I dunno, I don't quite recall Robert Johnson with a big 'fro and psychedelic painted guitar...
posted by kgasmart at 7:18 PM on October 4, 2003
One consequence of gang life is the friendships wrought along the way. Although these two wiggers have obviously been left hardened and left oddly bronzed by a life in the suburbs, they still have each other. This sense of fraternity allows them to engage future struggles with all the veracity of Batman and Robin . . . Starsky and Hutch . . . Siegfried and Roy.
Great prose. Tastee + Side-splitting.
posted by squirrel at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2003
Great prose. Tastee + Side-splitting.
posted by squirrel at 8:02 PM on October 4, 2003
I like Cannibal Ox and El-P, but I would hardly consider myself even a marginal wigger (although I did wear a fair amount of baggy pants in my highschool days). I've never quite understood when suburban kids try to appropriate the violent bravado of some aspects of hip-hop culture, apparently completely disregarding what it is about poverty and repression that leads to that sort of violence.
90% of suburban kids I know who like hip-hop don't give a second thought to any social critique it might be making, sadly, but that's kids for ya.
posted by The God Complex at 9:24 PM on October 4, 2003
90% of suburban kids I know who like hip-hop don't give a second thought to any social critique it might be making, sadly, but that's kids for ya.
posted by The God Complex at 9:24 PM on October 4, 2003
I'm not sure what the difference is between a "trucker hat" and my John Deere baseball cap...but I tell ya, I've had that bad boy since I learned how to drive a tractor lo those many years ago.
In the little diner in the rural area where we live, at late breakfast time, almost every table has a baseball cap with either a tractor or trucker emblem sitting on the side of the table while the boys eat.
I'm just saying that sometimes, folks wearing that garb actually have a reason for it.
posted by dejah420 at 9:32 PM on October 4, 2003
In the little diner in the rural area where we live, at late breakfast time, almost every table has a baseball cap with either a tractor or trucker emblem sitting on the side of the table while the boys eat.
I'm just saying that sometimes, folks wearing that garb actually have a reason for it.
posted by dejah420 at 9:32 PM on October 4, 2003
Right on dejah420. I grew up in similar surroundings and I recall as a youngin' getting an International hat after my father bought a shiney new truck for his business. I found it one day in a box I packed before I moved off to college and my roommates noted they were currently hot. I just thought it odd that these would turn into a mainstream fashion piece.
posted by asterisk at 12:15 AM on October 5, 2003
posted by asterisk at 12:15 AM on October 5, 2003
I found the development of this thread to be attributed mainly to our wigga brethren (warning, cult thread self link).
posted by adampsyche at 6:33 AM on October 5, 2003
posted by adampsyche at 6:33 AM on October 5, 2003
That's one of the coolest (and simultaneously most depressingly stupid) things I've ever seen. You are my bloghero of the week, Adam!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:03 AM on October 5, 2003
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:03 AM on October 5, 2003
This kind of reminds me of one of the funniest parodies I've ever seen, the Icy Hot Stuntas.
Oh, beware, on their links page the ! is a goatse.cx link. If you dont know what that is, trust me you do not want to go there. I mean that sincerely, it is just wrong.
posted by jester69 at 9:02 AM on October 5, 2003
Oh, beware, on their links page the ! is a goatse.cx link. If you dont know what that is, trust me you do not want to go there. I mean that sincerely, it is just wrong.
posted by jester69 at 9:02 AM on October 5, 2003
The Icy Hot Stuntas and goatseman! It's like 2001 all over again! The internet really is a magical wonderland!
[/obligatory snark]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2003
[/obligatory snark]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:24 AM on October 5, 2003
I'm going to have to side with the "flows both ways" interpretation of influences. It may skip generations or time periods as one group becomes saturated and then isolated and introspective, but you always have to look somewhere else for your new influences. (this assumes two equal cultural bases, for certainly an imbalance produces more of a cargo cult version, in which cultural influences only flow in) Only supreme arrogance would lead one to say that other groups are always appropriating your cool stuff and providing nothing in return.
To cite one example (and I am certainly no hip-hop expert - but this seems popular enough), has anyone else noticed how the new Outkast single "hey ya", seems to owe a fairly great debt to Aphex Twin, and to a smaller degree New Order. Many critics have mentioned the Prince influence, but I don't know if that would support my assertion case or not as prince seems to take at least equally from Funk, Pop, Crooners and RocknRoll.
Another example would be Ska and Two-tone, but untangling that older movement has probably been attempted by many a rock writer already.
posted by milovoo at 10:31 AM on October 5, 2003
To cite one example (and I am certainly no hip-hop expert - but this seems popular enough), has anyone else noticed how the new Outkast single "hey ya", seems to owe a fairly great debt to Aphex Twin, and to a smaller degree New Order. Many critics have mentioned the Prince influence, but I don't know if that would support my assertion case or not as prince seems to take at least equally from Funk, Pop, Crooners and RocknRoll.
Another example would be Ska and Two-tone, but untangling that older movement has probably been attempted by many a rock writer already.
posted by milovoo at 10:31 AM on October 5, 2003
Also regarding the direction of influence, let's not forget the gangsta penchant for Armani.
posted by Acetylene at 4:11 PM on October 5, 2003
posted by Acetylene at 4:11 PM on October 5, 2003
I kept waiting for someone to say that "wegro" would really be a more appropriate term, so I could pipe up and say how that would be a great name for a hip-hop organic farm.
I got tired of waiting.
posted by yhbc at 7:30 PM on October 5, 2003
I got tired of waiting.
posted by yhbc at 7:30 PM on October 5, 2003
Timbaland's been accused numerous times of biting his style from the jungle and uk-garage scenes. Both of which are pretty mixed racially. Techno, originated in Detroit by middle-class blacks, drew heavily from new-wave and euro-pop. Depeche Mode were a big influence. But then you get into that whole house/techno/electronic dance music scene, and theories of unidirectional colour flow go out of the window.
posted by inpHilltr8r at 8:22 PM on October 5, 2003
posted by inpHilltr8r at 8:22 PM on October 5, 2003
Armani makes records?
Robert Armani made the classic 'Circus Bells', but then he's black...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 8:23 PM on October 5, 2003
Robert Armani made the classic 'Circus Bells', but then he's black...
posted by inpHilltr8r at 8:23 PM on October 5, 2003
I'm going to have to side with the "flows both ways" interpretation of influences.
The documented record provides little to support this thesis. Citing a sample from this or that rock or techno group in a hip hop arrangement belies the fact that by far the bulk of samples used in the music, especially Old School Rap, come from soul, funk and jazz, with emphasis on the phrase by far the bulk of--as in the number of samples of Kraftwerk versus the number of samples James Brown in early rap singles cited here.
piskycritter and punilux tried to assert that Kraftwerk was sampled as much as James Brown but numbers are numbers: Kraft had 4 songs sampled. Transworld Express was sampled 9 times, the rest sampled 5 or less. (Obviously, examples like R.E.M’s sample of Numbers in Monster - King of Comedy just doesn't count nor does the Chemical Brothers sample of Radioactivity in Ohm Sweet Ohm as R.E.M and the Chemical Brothers are not exactly hip hop groups.)
James Brown, on the other hand, has, well, shit... you count them, starting with, say, Sex Machine and Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud, just to begin. And in the case of James Brown, those aren't guitar or synth riffs being sampled, those are beats, mind you: we're talking meat and potatoes, the main course--not a splash of condiments.
the-breaks.com has 22 pages of Soul, Funk and R&B, 13 of jazz, 1 of Blues, 2 of Old School Rap and 2 of Reggae versus 16 of Rock. (Hey, wait a minute... Joan Baez--WTF!? Gangstarr sampled the Band? Oh, my head is spinning...)
Similarly I could provide a long list of British and American rock groups that covered various blues by various blues musicians. How many Stones songs did Howling Wolf do again?
Apart from Charley Pride, what black artist's name springs to mind in the field of Country & Western? Or minus one name that springs to mind, in the genre of Bluegrass? Was there cross-cultural hybridization in in Pre-War, as in WW II, American vernacular musics? Sure. But, from the evidence, old timey white country musicians recorded blues melodies and stylings far more than black string bands or blues musicians recorded old timey country tunes or stylings. The Mississippi Sheiks had one 78 issued in a country series. One band. One whole 78.
Then there is the whole topic of jazz...
No, while the subject is complex in detail, the appropriation is by far in one direction, as I have documented above in regards to Old School Rap in the matter of Kraftwerk v. James Brown, and to my mind, Blackface Minstrelsy is the paradigm.
posted by y2karl at 8:38 PM on October 5, 2003
The documented record provides little to support this thesis. Citing a sample from this or that rock or techno group in a hip hop arrangement belies the fact that by far the bulk of samples used in the music, especially Old School Rap, come from soul, funk and jazz, with emphasis on the phrase by far the bulk of--as in the number of samples of Kraftwerk versus the number of samples James Brown in early rap singles cited here.
piskycritter and punilux tried to assert that Kraftwerk was sampled as much as James Brown but numbers are numbers: Kraft had 4 songs sampled. Transworld Express was sampled 9 times, the rest sampled 5 or less. (Obviously, examples like R.E.M’s sample of Numbers in Monster - King of Comedy just doesn't count nor does the Chemical Brothers sample of Radioactivity in Ohm Sweet Ohm as R.E.M and the Chemical Brothers are not exactly hip hop groups.)
James Brown, on the other hand, has, well, shit... you count them, starting with, say, Sex Machine and Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud, just to begin. And in the case of James Brown, those aren't guitar or synth riffs being sampled, those are beats, mind you: we're talking meat and potatoes, the main course--not a splash of condiments.
the-breaks.com has 22 pages of Soul, Funk and R&B, 13 of jazz, 1 of Blues, 2 of Old School Rap and 2 of Reggae versus 16 of Rock. (Hey, wait a minute... Joan Baez--WTF!? Gangstarr sampled the Band? Oh, my head is spinning...)
Similarly I could provide a long list of British and American rock groups that covered various blues by various blues musicians. How many Stones songs did Howling Wolf do again?
Apart from Charley Pride, what black artist's name springs to mind in the field of Country & Western? Or minus one name that springs to mind, in the genre of Bluegrass? Was there cross-cultural hybridization in in Pre-War, as in WW II, American vernacular musics? Sure. But, from the evidence, old timey white country musicians recorded blues melodies and stylings far more than black string bands or blues musicians recorded old timey country tunes or stylings. The Mississippi Sheiks had one 78 issued in a country series. One band. One whole 78.
Then there is the whole topic of jazz...
No, while the subject is complex in detail, the appropriation is by far in one direction, as I have documented above in regards to Old School Rap in the matter of Kraftwerk v. James Brown, and to my mind, Blackface Minstrelsy is the paradigm.
posted by y2karl at 8:38 PM on October 5, 2003
Related: The movie Whiteboyz with Danny Hoch. "They dreamed of the ghetto, they woke up in Iowa"
posted by BinGregory at 10:36 PM on October 5, 2003
posted by BinGregory at 10:36 PM on October 5, 2003
Apart from Charley Pride, what black artist's name springs to mind in the field of Country & Western?
Stoney Jackson. Ted Hawkins. Ray Charles did whole albums of C&W covers. You yourself said that blues musicians listened to the Opry. Rufus Thomas has been quoted as saying "hillbilly music has more of a story than it gets credit for." (I'm probably mangling that quote, it's in one of Peter Guralnick's books). Otis Redding had supposedly been listening to a lotta the Beatles before he died. Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" is basically a sped up rewrite of the old country song "Ida Red." Plenty of black jazz musicians did versions of standards by Jerome Kern, Rogers and Hammerstien etc. And the Bad Brains abandoned reggae after hearing hardcore.
And as far as sampling goes, abandoning old racial assumptions is part of what makes the best hip-hop so interesting. Plenty of rock songs have been sampled, I've heard everyone from the Animals to Steely Dan crammed in those grooves.
Yeah, the flow of influence has been something like 85/15 black to white, but the return has been there, if for no other reason than the fact that everyone has ears, and that musicians are primarily influenced by the quality of the music.
posted by jonmc at 6:45 AM on October 6, 2003
Stoney Jackson. Ted Hawkins. Ray Charles did whole albums of C&W covers. You yourself said that blues musicians listened to the Opry. Rufus Thomas has been quoted as saying "hillbilly music has more of a story than it gets credit for." (I'm probably mangling that quote, it's in one of Peter Guralnick's books). Otis Redding had supposedly been listening to a lotta the Beatles before he died. Chuck Berry's "Maybelline" is basically a sped up rewrite of the old country song "Ida Red." Plenty of black jazz musicians did versions of standards by Jerome Kern, Rogers and Hammerstien etc. And the Bad Brains abandoned reggae after hearing hardcore.
And as far as sampling goes, abandoning old racial assumptions is part of what makes the best hip-hop so interesting. Plenty of rock songs have been sampled, I've heard everyone from the Animals to Steely Dan crammed in those grooves.
Yeah, the flow of influence has been something like 85/15 black to white, but the return has been there, if for no other reason than the fact that everyone has ears, and that musicians are primarily influenced by the quality of the music.
posted by jonmc at 6:45 AM on October 6, 2003
Is this the first MeFi whigga thread? I first heard the term thanks to the mighty Mixerman. And the term was the more jovial wegro.
"Anything that pisses off this many people can't be all bad." - riedfleming
"If you come from a certain experience, you will notice things that others, not from that experience, do not. Your senses are tuned differently. There's a lot of that in ... hip-hop. People assume that because they are smart, because they can read, they can ultimately understand everything going on and being said in the music and culture. I don't think so."-Kari Orr
[My elementary friend Aaron constantly tried to get me into Kiss, incongruous and rebellious with what sweet music his mom fed to us on the HiFi. A little later I took a bite outta hiphop when I recorded Planet Rock on my Sanyo cheapie boom box and played it ad infinitum poolside that summer. Busted trying to do the worm in the halls, 6th grade. PE put me through camp. I was a dj in hs and tried to subvert with New Order, the Jams, Devo, Tones On Tail, the Smiths. But every time I got a request for Samantha Fox or Rush, I would drop in some PE or RUN-DMC or DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince. I even went a far as chopping a Bill Cosby record with a Depeche Mode 12" at a pool party in '86. I always sit in the back of the bus.]
posted by roboto at 7:25 AM on October 6, 2003
"Anything that pisses off this many people can't be all bad." - riedfleming
"If you come from a certain experience, you will notice things that others, not from that experience, do not. Your senses are tuned differently. There's a lot of that in ... hip-hop. People assume that because they are smart, because they can read, they can ultimately understand everything going on and being said in the music and culture. I don't think so."-Kari Orr
[My elementary friend Aaron constantly tried to get me into Kiss, incongruous and rebellious with what sweet music his mom fed to us on the HiFi. A little later I took a bite outta hiphop when I recorded Planet Rock on my Sanyo cheapie boom box and played it ad infinitum poolside that summer. Busted trying to do the worm in the halls, 6th grade. PE put me through camp. I was a dj in hs and tried to subvert with New Order, the Jams, Devo, Tones On Tail, the Smiths. But every time I got a request for Samantha Fox or Rush, I would drop in some PE or RUN-DMC or DJ Jazzy Jeff & the Fresh Prince. I even went a far as chopping a Bill Cosby record with a Depeche Mode 12" at a pool party in '86. I always sit in the back of the bus.]
posted by roboto at 7:25 AM on October 6, 2003
It's disproportionately white appropriating black culture ...
I was thinking of culture in a larger context than just music. However, as an example of the opposite, many African-American's embrace Christianity, which is an import of the white culture, and it has been the inspiration for a lot of gospel and spiritual music. In fact, I would say that you can go into almost any church on Sunday, and see African-American's doing a wonderful job of reinterpreting what was originally artifacts of white culture and transforming them into their own. But the vestments of white culture are still there.
piskycritter and punilux tried to assert that Kraftwerk was sampled as much as James Brown
I am afraid I asserted no such thing. I do not know who Kraftwerk is.
posted by piskycritter at 8:05 AM on October 6, 2003
I was thinking of culture in a larger context than just music. However, as an example of the opposite, many African-American's embrace Christianity, which is an import of the white culture, and it has been the inspiration for a lot of gospel and spiritual music. In fact, I would say that you can go into almost any church on Sunday, and see African-American's doing a wonderful job of reinterpreting what was originally artifacts of white culture and transforming them into their own. But the vestments of white culture are still there.
piskycritter and punilux tried to assert that Kraftwerk was sampled as much as James Brown
I am afraid I asserted no such thing. I do not know who Kraftwerk is.
posted by piskycritter at 8:05 AM on October 6, 2003
FWIW, Black music from Scotland? It could be the gospel truth
posted by todd at 4:57 PM on October 6, 2003
posted by todd at 4:57 PM on October 6, 2003
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posted by pitchblende at 11:11 AM on October 4, 2003