Private Jessica Lynch says The military used me!
November 7, 2003 6:12 AM Subscribe
Private Jessica Lynch says "The military used me!" Lynch, now honorably discharged and with a book coming out, told Diane Sawyer in a "Primetime" interview to air Tuesday that the military lied to the press and used her for propaganda purposes. This was reported in May by Robert Scheer of the L.A. Times, who was called "unamerican" by Bill O'Reilly and personally called a liar by the Pentagon. Once more, we've been lied to by our government, but something tells me that the frogs ain't gonna march anytime soon.
This is close to a double post. Perhaps it should have been posted here instead
posted by Eirixon at 6:18 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by Eirixon at 6:18 AM on November 7, 2003
She was used and now she is using them...bet poor little used girl will soon be driving nice new car.
posted by Postroad at 6:24 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by Postroad at 6:24 AM on November 7, 2003
The Scheer rebuttal to the Pentagon's critique of him is available here...
Also, I would argue that this is a very different and far more important issue than whether Lynch was raped or not. I didn't even read that post because it was salacious and not of any real importance.
This is a case where it appears the Pentagon knowingly lied to the American public and covered their lie by libeling a reporter who did his job in a professional manner. I think it's worth a FPP, myself.
posted by insomnia_lj at 6:29 AM on November 7, 2003
Also, I would argue that this is a very different and far more important issue than whether Lynch was raped or not. I didn't even read that post because it was salacious and not of any real importance.
This is a case where it appears the Pentagon knowingly lied to the American public and covered their lie by libeling a reporter who did his job in a professional manner. I think it's worth a FPP, myself.
posted by insomnia_lj at 6:29 AM on November 7, 2003
I vote for double post. She's had her 15 minutes, let's move on.
posted by Outlawyr at 6:30 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by Outlawyr at 6:30 AM on November 7, 2003
Using them? She seems to be trying to set the record straight. It'll be interesting to watch how this unfolds. Will the Pentagon call Jessica a liar too? In the NY Times article linked in the other thread someone said she may not remember things properly because of her injuries - so they may take that route to discredit her.
Rober Scheer's "hysterical belch of outrage" is the best phrase I've heard in awhile.
posted by orange swan at 6:34 AM on November 7, 2003
Rober Scheer's "hysterical belch of outrage" is the best phrase I've heard in awhile.
posted by orange swan at 6:34 AM on November 7, 2003
I don't see how it's a double post -- they really are two separate issues. This post is based on new information.
Scheer likely deserves an apology, which he just as likely will not receive.
posted by pardonyou? at 6:39 AM on November 7, 2003
Scheer likely deserves an apology, which he just as likely will not receive.
posted by pardonyou? at 6:39 AM on November 7, 2003
I'm glad that Jessica is coming out and actually telling her side of the story. It would have been very easy for her to sit back and let the Pentagon propaganda machine spit out whatever best serves its purposes.
I wonder what she thinks about the new mini-series about her that's coming out.
posted by bshort at 6:50 AM on November 7, 2003
I wonder what she thinks about the new mini-series about her that's coming out.
posted by bshort at 6:50 AM on November 7, 2003
So much for the "honor code" of the military.
Unsurprising. But one suspects that the present administration, through various types of pressure, had a hand in the spin of this liitle charade.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 6:53 AM on November 7, 2003
Unsurprising. But one suspects that the present administration, through various types of pressure, had a hand in the spin of this liitle charade.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 6:53 AM on November 7, 2003
Your choices are:
a. The Pentagon
b. The Iraqi Lawyer
c. Jessica Lynch
d. The NBC Movie-of-the-Week
Who do you believe? More importantly, who will the American public believe? And why do I have the feeling that the Pentagon was much happier when Ms Lynch was afflicted with "amnesia."
posted by grabbingsand at 6:57 AM on November 7, 2003
a. The Pentagon
b. The Iraqi Lawyer
c. Jessica Lynch
d. The NBC Movie-of-the-Week
Who do you believe? More importantly, who will the American public believe? And why do I have the feeling that the Pentagon was much happier when Ms Lynch was afflicted with "amnesia."
posted by grabbingsand at 6:57 AM on November 7, 2003
Who do you believe?
none of the above really for different reasons, but if I have to choose, c
More importantly, who will the American public believe?
mostly a, d
And why do I have the feeling that the Pentagon was much happier when Ms Lynch was afflicted with "amnesia."
*cuffs grabbingsand, relocates him to secure location -- ie, Jordan, or Egypt -- for further questioning by local authorities in the presence of US security consultants*
posted by matteo at 7:03 AM on November 7, 2003
none of the above really for different reasons, but if I have to choose, c
More importantly, who will the American public believe?
mostly a, d
And why do I have the feeling that the Pentagon was much happier when Ms Lynch was afflicted with "amnesia."
*cuffs grabbingsand, relocates him to secure location -- ie, Jordan, or Egypt -- for further questioning by local authorities in the presence of US security consultants*
posted by matteo at 7:03 AM on November 7, 2003
I vote for double post. She's had her 15 minutes, let's move on.
This is not about Jessica so much as it is about lying lyers, IMHO. Good post.
posted by ae4rv at 7:04 AM on November 7, 2003
This is not about Jessica so much as it is about lying lyers, IMHO. Good post.
posted by ae4rv at 7:04 AM on November 7, 2003
Hmmm. Reagan movie killed because of "made-up" dialogue. I'm sure the outrage over the Lynch made-up dialogue (verified by the SUBJECT of the film) will come forth from the GOP, forcing it to be moved to Showtime...Right?...Right?
posted by sharksandwich at 7:04 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by sharksandwich at 7:04 AM on November 7, 2003
Here is a CNN interview with John Kampfner, the BBC correspondent whose allegations led to Scheer's story in the L.A. Times.
The BBC story, incidentally, was covered by several international papers, including some in Canada, but Sheer was the first major US journalist to report on the story, and therefore took most of the flak.
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:18 AM on November 7, 2003
The BBC story, incidentally, was covered by several international papers, including some in Canada, but Sheer was the first major US journalist to report on the story, and therefore took most of the flak.
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:18 AM on November 7, 2003
Actually the NBC movie is based on the Iraqi lawyer's book since Lynch went with the book deal instead.
posted by destro at 7:20 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by destro at 7:20 AM on November 7, 2003
So much for the "honor code" of the military.
I for one am pleased she chose to honor the people she served... us!
Way to go, Jessica.
posted by LouReedsSon at 7:28 AM on November 7, 2003
I for one am pleased she chose to honor the people she served... us!
Way to go, Jessica.
posted by LouReedsSon at 7:28 AM on November 7, 2003
Found the original story by Kampfner for the BBC.
It should be noted that Kampfner said that Lynch had no bullet or stab wounds on her, and that a hospital commander, Col. David Rubenstein, insisted Lynch had not been shot or stabbed. However, it was later claimed by the military that
two gunshot wounds were found after "an extensive probing and examination" conducted nearly a week after she was "rescued". Her family were then told about these ficticious wounds.
On a personal note, how would you feel if the military told you that a family member of yours had been shot twice, only to find out later that it was a lie designed to cover another lie they had previously created?
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:35 AM on November 7, 2003
It should be noted that Kampfner said that Lynch had no bullet or stab wounds on her, and that a hospital commander, Col. David Rubenstein, insisted Lynch had not been shot or stabbed. However, it was later claimed by the military that
two gunshot wounds were found after "an extensive probing and examination" conducted nearly a week after she was "rescued". Her family were then told about these ficticious wounds.
On a personal note, how would you feel if the military told you that a family member of yours had been shot twice, only to find out later that it was a lie designed to cover another lie they had previously created?
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:35 AM on November 7, 2003
April 3rd story from the Washington Post - "She Was Fighting to the Death"
This article sites US officials and several officials, with the story that Lynch continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds.
So, which officials, do you think? Whoever it was, they had enough clout to make invisible gunshot wounds magically appear out of nowhere.
Too bad the Washington Post will protect the same sources that lied to all of us... quite similar to what happened with the Wilson/ "frog march" case, really.
It should be noted that in June, Dennis Kucinich called for the Defense Dept. to release the unedited footage of the rescue and to answer questions about Lynch's injuries. Perhaps we should all push our congressmen a bit on this issue...
posted by insomnia_lj at 8:03 AM on November 7, 2003
This article sites US officials and several officials, with the story that Lynch continued firing at the Iraqis even after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds.
So, which officials, do you think? Whoever it was, they had enough clout to make invisible gunshot wounds magically appear out of nowhere.
Too bad the Washington Post will protect the same sources that lied to all of us... quite similar to what happened with the Wilson/ "frog march" case, really.
It should be noted that in June, Dennis Kucinich called for the Defense Dept. to release the unedited footage of the rescue and to answer questions about Lynch's injuries. Perhaps we should all push our congressmen a bit on this issue...
posted by insomnia_lj at 8:03 AM on November 7, 2003
What is particularly sad in all of this is that a wonderfully hopeful story was available to the Pentagon to sell to the eager media: one in which besieged Iraqi doctors and nurses bravely cared for--and supplied their own blood to--a similarly brave young American woman in a time of madness and violence. Instead, eager to turn the war into a morality play between good and evil, the military used--if not abused--Lynch to put a heroic spin on an otherwise sorry tale of unjustified invasion.
Scheer nailed it pretty good there.
The US Administration is behaving as if its policy problems were simply PR problems. What they've "learned" from history is that Vietnam was a media relations mistake, not a foreign policy mistake. These crusades against Afghanistan and Iraq have been very carefully managed for media relations. Ms. Lynch will hopefully help break this PR machine.
posted by yesster at 8:11 AM on November 7, 2003
Scheer nailed it pretty good there.
The US Administration is behaving as if its policy problems were simply PR problems. What they've "learned" from history is that Vietnam was a media relations mistake, not a foreign policy mistake. These crusades against Afghanistan and Iraq have been very carefully managed for media relations. Ms. Lynch will hopefully help break this PR machine.
posted by yesster at 8:11 AM on November 7, 2003
Lost amid this is Private Lynch's view of her rescuers. From ABC news:
But Lynch was unequivocal in her gratitude to the soldiers who rescued her. "All I know was that I was in that hospital hurting … I wanted out of there. It didn't matter to me if they would have came in shirts and blank guns. It wouldn't have mattered to me. I wanted out of there."
"They're the ones that came in to rescue me. Those are my heroes … I'm so thankful that they did what they did. They risked their lives. They didn't know, you know, who was in there."
posted by Durwood at 8:13 AM on November 7, 2003
But Lynch was unequivocal in her gratitude to the soldiers who rescued her. "All I know was that I was in that hospital hurting … I wanted out of there. It didn't matter to me if they would have came in shirts and blank guns. It wouldn't have mattered to me. I wanted out of there."
"They're the ones that came in to rescue me. Those are my heroes … I'm so thankful that they did what they did. They risked their lives. They didn't know, you know, who was in there."
posted by Durwood at 8:13 AM on November 7, 2003
"Pun intended?"
Am I to understand this to mean that you are mocking the anal rape of a young woman, who for whatever reason, was serving her country?
Regardless of how one feels about the war in Iraq the fact remains that a woman, barely out of her teens, suffered through a horrendous ordeal. I find her candor refreshing and hope that her book sells like hotcakes and the appropriate heads in the Pentagon roll across the floor like bowling balls.
posted by cedar at 8:21 AM on November 7, 2003
Am I to understand this to mean that you are mocking the anal rape of a young woman, who for whatever reason, was serving her country?
Regardless of how one feels about the war in Iraq the fact remains that a woman, barely out of her teens, suffered through a horrendous ordeal. I find her candor refreshing and hope that her book sells like hotcakes and the appropriate heads in the Pentagon roll across the floor like bowling balls.
posted by cedar at 8:21 AM on November 7, 2003
"They're the ones that came in to rescue me. Those are my heroes."
Were the names of her rescuers ever released? Has she met them since the event? Anyone?
posted by grabbingsand at 8:36 AM on November 7, 2003
Were the names of her rescuers ever released? Has she met them since the event? Anyone?
posted by grabbingsand at 8:36 AM on November 7, 2003
Anyone else wondering where 'frog march' comes from? Me too.
FROG-MARCH verb [shift and alteration of “frog’s march” (not recorded in U.S.), as in 1871, 1873 quotations] Especially ‘police.’ to carry (a resisting person) face downward by the arms and legs; (hence now solely) to propel (a resisting person) forward, as by seizing his collar and the seat of his trousers or by pinioning his arms behind his back.posted by ao4047 at 8:45 AM on November 7, 2003
Unsurprising. But one suspects that the present administration, through various types of pressure, had a hand in the spin of this liitle charade.
That was my first response to the story. "Ah, the military needs to add a little 'No, Jessica has her own opinions' spin to the yarn, so now she's denouncing certain parts of her rescue story...at the encouragement."
I don't like having to assume that everything I hear from the US military is a lie, but I don't really feel like I have much of a choice these days.
posted by arielmeadow at 9:43 AM on November 7, 2003
That was my first response to the story. "Ah, the military needs to add a little 'No, Jessica has her own opinions' spin to the yarn, so now she's denouncing certain parts of her rescue story...at the encouragement."
I don't like having to assume that everything I hear from the US military is a lie, but I don't really feel like I have much of a choice these days.
posted by arielmeadow at 9:43 AM on November 7, 2003
er, should have read: "...at their encouragement."
posted by arielmeadow at 9:45 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by arielmeadow at 9:45 AM on November 7, 2003
it appears the Pentagon knowingly lied to the American public and covered their lie by libeling a reporter who did his job in a professional manner. I think it's worth a FPP, myself.
given everything since november 2000, i think it's worth overthrowing the goddam government.
posted by quonsar at 10:21 AM on November 7, 2003
given everything since november 2000, i think it's worth overthrowing the goddam government.
posted by quonsar at 10:21 AM on November 7, 2003
Good Bog in Heaven, quonsar, it took this long to convince you?!
posted by JollyWanker at 10:32 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by JollyWanker at 10:32 AM on November 7, 2003
not really. it just looked like a good opportunity to remind everyone :-)
posted by quonsar at 10:34 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by quonsar at 10:34 AM on November 7, 2003
I think it is 100% pure garbage how our subculture is so hateful to the government. The blatant left wing propaganda that gets spewed daily is enough to make my stomach turn.
This story is not even worth reading for me.
posted by Addiction at 10:38 AM on November 7, 2003
This story is not even worth reading for me.
posted by Addiction at 10:38 AM on November 7, 2003
Funny how it used to be the Rebuplicans that railed against *anything* governmental. Now it's apparently the "left-wing" "subculture".
Not worth reading? Of course not - don't *ever* read anything that doesn't jibe with what you already believe. (Ok, I'll cop to being guilty of that, too, sometimes.)
posted by notsnot at 10:45 AM on November 7, 2003
Not worth reading? Of course not - don't *ever* read anything that doesn't jibe with what you already believe. (Ok, I'll cop to being guilty of that, too, sometimes.)
posted by notsnot at 10:45 AM on November 7, 2003
What they've "learned" from history is that Vietnam was a media relations mistake, not a foreign policy mistake.
Yesster, this is spot-on.
To the barricades, quonsar!
posted by scody at 11:07 AM on November 7, 2003
Yesster, this is spot-on.
To the barricades, quonsar!
posted by scody at 11:07 AM on November 7, 2003
So, are the same champions of historical accuracy who demanded the Reagan miniseries be canceled going to do the same thing here?
posted by homunculus at 11:11 AM on November 7, 2003
posted by homunculus at 11:11 AM on November 7, 2003
The blatant left wing propaganda that gets spewed daily is enough to make my stomach turn.
Even more than willful ignorance?
I realize the word isn't fashionable right now, but the Truth is neither right-wing or left-wing.
posted by Twang at 11:19 AM on November 7, 2003
Even more than willful ignorance?
I realize the word isn't fashionable right now, but the Truth is neither right-wing or left-wing.
posted by Twang at 11:19 AM on November 7, 2003
"This story is not even worth reading for me."
It's amazing how you can't even see Rummy's lips move while Addiction is speaking.
posted by 2sheets at 11:22 AM on November 7, 2003
It's amazing how you can't even see Rummy's lips move while Addiction is speaking.
posted by 2sheets at 11:22 AM on November 7, 2003
So, are the same champions of historical accuracy who demanded the Reagan miniseries be canceled going to do the same thing here?
Yes. In my case anyway. What a stupid thing to lie about. Did they not think she would rebut them when she got the chance? Or maybe that is why she was practically incognito in the hospital so long.
BTW, I am totally sick of all these movie-of-the-week things- can't something happen to someone without it immediately being shredded into entertainment fodder?
posted by konolia at 11:42 AM on November 7, 2003
Yes. In my case anyway. What a stupid thing to lie about. Did they not think she would rebut them when she got the chance? Or maybe that is why she was practically incognito in the hospital so long.
BTW, I am totally sick of all these movie-of-the-week things- can't something happen to someone without it immediately being shredded into entertainment fodder?
posted by konolia at 11:42 AM on November 7, 2003
This story is not even worth reading for me.
[said with hands over ears]
LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU LA LA LA!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:54 AM on November 7, 2003
[said with hands over ears]
LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU LA LA LA!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:54 AM on November 7, 2003
This isn't a double post, the first was about her "shocking" of being raped and not remembering it. And this is about her outrage at being used as a puppet by the military for their propoganda.
I am now willing to give her alot more benefit of the doubt as it would appear that she's got some brains and some backbone to say she's pissed off at her story being subverted by the government. Good for her.
With all that said, I still wouldn't watch a movie based on her experiences, wouldn't watch an interview with her by Diane "Flavor of the Week Exploiter" Sawyer and I sure as hell won't be forking over $30 for a crappy ghost written book by a shamed journalist.
Can we move on to the real issues with the war in Iraq again? Like the illegal activities, the corrupt rebuilding no-bid contracts for Bush's cronies and the continuing deaths of our soldiers for his short sighted and sneer ridden campaign?
posted by fenriq at 11:57 AM on November 7, 2003
I am now willing to give her alot more benefit of the doubt as it would appear that she's got some brains and some backbone to say she's pissed off at her story being subverted by the government. Good for her.
With all that said, I still wouldn't watch a movie based on her experiences, wouldn't watch an interview with her by Diane "Flavor of the Week Exploiter" Sawyer and I sure as hell won't be forking over $30 for a crappy ghost written book by a shamed journalist.
Can we move on to the real issues with the war in Iraq again? Like the illegal activities, the corrupt rebuilding no-bid contracts for Bush's cronies and the continuing deaths of our soldiers for his short sighted and sneer ridden campaign?
posted by fenriq at 11:57 AM on November 7, 2003
Yea, verily, what fenriq said. If they can't show us the damn WMDs yet, at least bring us the head of Saddam Hussein.
posted by alumshubby at 12:21 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by alumshubby at 12:21 PM on November 7, 2003
Hey, Addiction - I don't hate the government. I just refuse to trust it. As I've said before, I don't distrust it either. Trust is relevant only in the absence of knowledge; if we had knowledge, we wouldn't have to rely on trust.
I RESENT my government for asking for my trust, rather than giving me the truth.
posted by yesster at 12:26 PM on November 7, 2003
I RESENT my government for asking for my trust, rather than giving me the truth.
posted by yesster at 12:26 PM on November 7, 2003
given everything since november 2000, i think it's worth overthrowing the goddam government.
Where do I sign up?
posted by LouReedsSon at 1:24 PM on November 7, 2003
Where do I sign up?
posted by LouReedsSon at 1:24 PM on November 7, 2003
This story is not even worth reading for me.
What does the world look like with all that sand in your eyes?
posted by rushmc at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2003
What does the world look like with all that sand in your eyes?
posted by rushmc at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2003
Hey Cedar, how traumatic is rape if the victim has no recollection of it? I'd dare say its not keeping her awake at night.
And no, I'm not being flippant about something as serious as rape. But if she's none the worse for it and will make millions and millions of dollars from the "ordeal" then I'd say she's a damned sight better off because of it.
And Alumshubby, don't you worry, Bush is having some WMD's flown in to be found, they'll be hidden soon and we'll have a huge discovery soon. I'm nearly sure of it. He is stupid enough to try it and, sadly, the majority of the US will eat it up like the spoon fed propoganda it is.
posted by fenriq at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2003
And no, I'm not being flippant about something as serious as rape. But if she's none the worse for it and will make millions and millions of dollars from the "ordeal" then I'd say she's a damned sight better off because of it.
And Alumshubby, don't you worry, Bush is having some WMD's flown in to be found, they'll be hidden soon and we'll have a huge discovery soon. I'm nearly sure of it. He is stupid enough to try it and, sadly, the majority of the US will eat it up like the spoon fed propoganda it is.
posted by fenriq at 1:47 PM on November 7, 2003
I still wouldn't watch a movie based on her experiences, wouldn't watch an interview with her by Diane "Flavor of the Week Exploiter" Sawyer
Oh, but you must watch Diane. I hear she's going to ask Jessi what she thinks of the Dixie Chicks.
As for the movie, I can hardly tolerate NBC of late because of that nausea-inducing syrupy, flag-waving promo. (Fortunately, everything but Scrubs on "Must-See TV" sucks, so I don't watch it much anyway.)
And BTW quonsar, we wouldn't be in this mess, and we wouldn't need a revolution, if we didn't have that insipid electoral college. Yet I don't hear much discussion about abolishing that. (Of course, the G-damn Old Party might have found another way to fix 2000 anyway.)
fenriq, so she's reaping the benefits of being a famous rape victim, without having to remember it? How very Bobby Knight of you. Oh wait, he'd say, "Too bad she wasn't conscious, so she could lay back and enjoy it."
posted by NorthernLite at 2:09 PM on November 7, 2003
Oh, but you must watch Diane. I hear she's going to ask Jessi what she thinks of the Dixie Chicks.
As for the movie, I can hardly tolerate NBC of late because of that nausea-inducing syrupy, flag-waving promo. (Fortunately, everything but Scrubs on "Must-See TV" sucks, so I don't watch it much anyway.)
And BTW quonsar, we wouldn't be in this mess, and we wouldn't need a revolution, if we didn't have that insipid electoral college. Yet I don't hear much discussion about abolishing that. (Of course, the G-damn Old Party might have found another way to fix 2000 anyway.)
fenriq, so she's reaping the benefits of being a famous rape victim, without having to remember it? How very Bobby Knight of you. Oh wait, he'd say, "Too bad she wasn't conscious, so she could lay back and enjoy it."
posted by NorthernLite at 2:09 PM on November 7, 2003
the majority of the US will eat it up like the spoon fed propoganda it is.
Duh! Didn't someone already post that a recent poll reported something like 70% of Americans believe they were already found?
posted by LouReedsSon at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2003
Duh! Didn't someone already post that a recent poll reported something like 70% of Americans believe they were already found?
posted by LouReedsSon at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2003
Hey Cedar, how traumatic is rape if the victim has no recollection of it? I'd dare say its not keeping her awake at night.
Hey fenriq, just ask any of those GHB-rape victims. I'm sure they don't have any mental or physical scars or any lingering problems at all! Rilly! A walk in the freakin park if I say so myself!
It must be nice living in disneyland...
posted by lilboo at 2:23 PM on November 7, 2003
It must be nice living in disneyland...
posted by lilboo at 2:23 PM on November 7, 2003
The GHB rape victims all knew something had happened. Jessica Lynch was TOLD she had been raped well, well after it had happened, if it actually happened at all. There's a huge difference. The same people who lied to us may be lying to her. Who's to say, I'm sure they've got charts and "proof" but so what, proof can be manufactured easily.
And no, I'm not saying she was or wasn't but if the choice is between knowledge of being raped and being ignorant of it then I bet that most people would go for not knowing.
And NorthernLight, sorry but how dare you compare me to Bobby friggin' Knight! I'm not saying I'm glad she was raped because I'm not, its a horrible thing to have happened but she seems to be having no problem benefitting from it. Besides, this whole thing is about her alleged rape, its about the trumped up rescue, the spin of the "torture" and all the other lies being spewed by the government to try and help push the war effort. She's not a "famous rape victim" she's a "war hero who was 'allegedly' raped", can you see the difference?
posted by fenriq at 2:49 PM on November 7, 2003
And no, I'm not saying she was or wasn't but if the choice is between knowledge of being raped and being ignorant of it then I bet that most people would go for not knowing.
And NorthernLight, sorry but how dare you compare me to Bobby friggin' Knight! I'm not saying I'm glad she was raped because I'm not, its a horrible thing to have happened but she seems to be having no problem benefitting from it. Besides, this whole thing is about her alleged rape, its about the trumped up rescue, the spin of the "torture" and all the other lies being spewed by the government to try and help push the war effort. She's not a "famous rape victim" she's a "war hero who was 'allegedly' raped", can you see the difference?
posted by fenriq at 2:49 PM on November 7, 2003
I think it is 100% pure garbage how our subculture is so hateful to the government.
What "subculture" is that that you believe Jessica Lynch belongs to? The military? Blonde women? Republicans? Twenty-somethings?
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:07 PM on November 7, 2003
What "subculture" is that that you believe Jessica Lynch belongs to? The military? Blonde women? Republicans? Twenty-somethings?
posted by Sidhedevil at 3:07 PM on November 7, 2003
she seems to be having no problem benefitting from it
So to earn your respect (which I'm sure is a high priority with her, as it is with all of us) she'd have to refuse all book deals and turn away all inquiring media? "I'm sorry, but I was raped and therefore must hide myself away lest fenriq, arbiter of all things and not a bit like Bobby friggin' Knight, think the less of me for even seeming to benefit from my shame." I think this issue is a loser for you, and you should stick to WMDs.
posted by languagehat at 3:53 PM on November 7, 2003
So to earn your respect (which I'm sure is a high priority with her, as it is with all of us) she'd have to refuse all book deals and turn away all inquiring media? "I'm sorry, but I was raped and therefore must hide myself away lest fenriq, arbiter of all things and not a bit like Bobby friggin' Knight, think the less of me for even seeming to benefit from my shame." I think this issue is a loser for you, and you should stick to WMDs.
posted by languagehat at 3:53 PM on November 7, 2003
Hmm, benefitting from her shame? I've seen no mention of her shame in any media report. Are you imposing your own perspective on her? By what right do you think you know what's going on in her mind? If she were ashamed about what had happened do you think she'd be doing interviews and writing a book about it? Um, no. She'd be holed up in her home and waiting for the next story to push her off the front pages.
By the way, nice strawman fallacy. We all know she could care less what I (or you or anyone else in this thread) thinks of her. And, for what its worth, I think a heck of a lot more of her now that she's rebelling against the spin doctors. Which actually refutes the snippet you quoted anyway, she does have a problem with all of this spin.
So, nice try but you've neither convinced me of anything or even really made any argument, you're just spouting off at me because you've got nothing better to say. Oh well.
Again, it isn't about respect, its about pimping oneself for the almighty dollar.
posted by fenriq at 4:13 PM on November 7, 2003
By the way, nice strawman fallacy. We all know she could care less what I (or you or anyone else in this thread) thinks of her. And, for what its worth, I think a heck of a lot more of her now that she's rebelling against the spin doctors. Which actually refutes the snippet you quoted anyway, she does have a problem with all of this spin.
So, nice try but you've neither convinced me of anything or even really made any argument, you're just spouting off at me because you've got nothing better to say. Oh well.
Again, it isn't about respect, its about pimping oneself for the almighty dollar.
posted by fenriq at 4:13 PM on November 7, 2003
"Hey Cedar, how traumatic is rape if the victim has no recollection of it? I'd dare say its not keeping her awake at night."
You'd have to ask her how she sleeps at night. Any speculation on this womans motives or feelings is without base and, to me, distasteful.
I will however, say that being aware of something traumatic happening and not being able to remember the specifics may be just as distressing as full recall.
As far as 'benefitting from it' goes, what would you have her do, hide her face behind a veil and while bowing her head in shame? This is not a situation she created and by going public she has the opportunity to assert herself and take some control. I wouldn't be at all surprised if given the choice she would have preferred to remain anonymous but as far as I can see, this was not a choice she had.
posted by cedar at 4:18 PM on November 7, 2003
You'd have to ask her how she sleeps at night. Any speculation on this womans motives or feelings is without base and, to me, distasteful.
I will however, say that being aware of something traumatic happening and not being able to remember the specifics may be just as distressing as full recall.
As far as 'benefitting from it' goes, what would you have her do, hide her face behind a veil and while bowing her head in shame? This is not a situation she created and by going public she has the opportunity to assert herself and take some control. I wouldn't be at all surprised if given the choice she would have preferred to remain anonymous but as far as I can see, this was not a choice she had.
posted by cedar at 4:18 PM on November 7, 2003
I hate to interrupt your conspiracy theory there fenriq, but there are some things to consider about your statements above.
Some GHB-rape victims know, some don't. One of Andrew Luster's victims didn't know she was raped until after the police uncovered photographic evidence well after the fact.
If she was raped, she needs to know. There are major health concerns that need to be addressed; you are never better off not knowing. And I might point out that there are medical records. That's a little different than just being told you were raped by some General with a political agenda. That means they found physical evidence.
Not every rape victim feels ashamed of what happened to them, but I am pretty sure they all feel a very deep sense of fear, anxiety and violation. Even if she remembers absolutely nothing about the attack, it happened, and there are always repercussions.
posted by lilboo at 4:30 PM on November 7, 2003
Some GHB-rape victims know, some don't. One of Andrew Luster's victims didn't know she was raped until after the police uncovered photographic evidence well after the fact.
If she was raped, she needs to know. There are major health concerns that need to be addressed; you are never better off not knowing. And I might point out that there are medical records. That's a little different than just being told you were raped by some General with a political agenda. That means they found physical evidence.
Not every rape victim feels ashamed of what happened to them, but I am pretty sure they all feel a very deep sense of fear, anxiety and violation. Even if she remembers absolutely nothing about the attack, it happened, and there are always repercussions.
posted by lilboo at 4:30 PM on November 7, 2003
I think a heck of a lot more of her now...
...pimping oneself for the almighty dollar...
Uh-huh.
posted by languagehat at 5:02 PM on November 7, 2003
...pimping oneself for the almighty dollar...
Uh-huh.
posted by languagehat at 5:02 PM on November 7, 2003
And I might point out that there are medical records.
Doctors who treated former prisoner of war dismiss claims that she was raped in Iraq
Those records of which you speak were generated weeks later...and by the same people who told her family she had bullet wounds...when in fact, she'd never been shot. None of those "records" are trustworthy.
Were the names of her rescuers ever released? Has she met them since the event? Anyone? -- grabbingsand
I'm not sure if a list of all of the people on the mission were/will be released...but at least 4 of the soldiers on the mission are already dead.
David M Tapper (cause of death: wounds received in action)
"The Department of Defense announced today that Petty Officer First Class David M. Tapper, 32, of Camden County, New Jersey, died of wounds received in action August 20, 2003 in Afghanistan. Often called upon to conduct the most harrowing missions, Tapper took part in the April rescue of wounded POW Jessica Lynch, then helped recover the bodies of nine American soldiers buried near the Iraqi hospital where she was held, according to friends and the Tapper family."
Source: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/dmtapper.htm
Sok Khak Ung (cause of death:murdered)
"A $10,000 reward was
offered Tuesday to help find the gunman who shot to death a Marine who was celebrating his return from Iraq. Ung, 22, who was stationed at Camp Pendleton, and a family friend, Vouthy Tho, 21, of Long Beach, were shot early Sunday while partying in a garage at a Long Beach home.
A gunman reached over a wooden fence next to the garage and fired six to eight shots before fleeing, police said. ...Lisbon said Ung also participated in the rescue of Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch. The combat engineer was part of a "diversion force" which attacked the enemy to distract them while a special force unit went into the
hospital to rescue Lynch, Lisbon aid."
Source: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/102103ap_nw_marine_killed.html
Josh Daniel Speer (cause of death: single vehicle accident)
"Josh Daniel Speer, a 21-year-old Marine who died in a single-vehicle wreck Sunday, poses with his weapons in Iraq. A Marine who was home for the first time since fighting in Iraq died Sunday morning when the vehicle he was driving veered off State 11 and crashed into some trees, authorities said. Josh Daniel Speer, 21, died instantly about 8 a.m. while enroute to his fiancee's house, said Kent Dill, a Greenville County deputy coroner.
Speer was a member of a unit that helped rescue Jessica Lynch, the Army private captured by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, said Capt. Shawn Turner, a corps spokesman. Details of the unit's role weren't available, he
said."
Source: http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/07/07/200307079664.htm
Kyle Edward Williams (cause of death: apparent suicide)
"The soldier, Specialist Kyle Edward Williams, 21, was found dead outside of San Diego on Thursday of an apparent suicide. Officials said he was a member of the 507th Maintenance Company, the same unit as Jessica Lynch.
Officials said they believe he shot himself in the chest with one of the seven firearms he
had been carrying.
He left no note to explain the suicide or why he fired six shots at Noah P. Gamez, also 21, after spotting the man stealing an ice chest from his Jeep."
This source only accessible through Google's cache.
posted by dejah420 at 6:17 PM on November 7, 2003
Doctors who treated former prisoner of war dismiss claims that she was raped in Iraq
Those records of which you speak were generated weeks later...and by the same people who told her family she had bullet wounds...when in fact, she'd never been shot. None of those "records" are trustworthy.
Were the names of her rescuers ever released? Has she met them since the event? Anyone? -- grabbingsand
I'm not sure if a list of all of the people on the mission were/will be released...but at least 4 of the soldiers on the mission are already dead.
David M Tapper (cause of death: wounds received in action)
"The Department of Defense announced today that Petty Officer First Class David M. Tapper, 32, of Camden County, New Jersey, died of wounds received in action August 20, 2003 in Afghanistan. Often called upon to conduct the most harrowing missions, Tapper took part in the April rescue of wounded POW Jessica Lynch, then helped recover the bodies of nine American soldiers buried near the Iraqi hospital where she was held, according to friends and the Tapper family."
Source: http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/dmtapper.htm
Sok Khak Ung (cause of death:murdered)
"A $10,000 reward was
offered Tuesday to help find the gunman who shot to death a Marine who was celebrating his return from Iraq. Ung, 22, who was stationed at Camp Pendleton, and a family friend, Vouthy Tho, 21, of Long Beach, were shot early Sunday while partying in a garage at a Long Beach home.
A gunman reached over a wooden fence next to the garage and fired six to eight shots before fleeing, police said. ...Lisbon said Ung also participated in the rescue of Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch. The combat engineer was part of a "diversion force" which attacked the enemy to distract them while a special force unit went into the
hospital to rescue Lynch, Lisbon aid."
Source: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/102103ap_nw_marine_killed.html
Josh Daniel Speer (cause of death: single vehicle accident)
"Josh Daniel Speer, a 21-year-old Marine who died in a single-vehicle wreck Sunday, poses with his weapons in Iraq. A Marine who was home for the first time since fighting in Iraq died Sunday morning when the vehicle he was driving veered off State 11 and crashed into some trees, authorities said. Josh Daniel Speer, 21, died instantly about 8 a.m. while enroute to his fiancee's house, said Kent Dill, a Greenville County deputy coroner.
Speer was a member of a unit that helped rescue Jessica Lynch, the Army private captured by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, said Capt. Shawn Turner, a corps spokesman. Details of the unit's role weren't available, he
said."
Source: http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/07/07/200307079664.htm
Kyle Edward Williams (cause of death: apparent suicide)
"The soldier, Specialist Kyle Edward Williams, 21, was found dead outside of San Diego on Thursday of an apparent suicide. Officials said he was a member of the 507th Maintenance Company, the same unit as Jessica Lynch.
Officials said they believe he shot himself in the chest with one of the seven firearms he
had been carrying.
He left no note to explain the suicide or why he fired six shots at Noah P. Gamez, also 21, after spotting the man stealing an ice chest from his Jeep."
This source only accessible through Google's cache.
posted by dejah420 at 6:17 PM on November 7, 2003
Okay, that is spooky, dejah420...and I don't spook easily.
posted by rushmc at 7:16 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by rushmc at 7:16 PM on November 7, 2003
Yes, that is spooky. It is of course possible that there's nothing sinister about this, a mere statistical anomaly like the supposed curse of that mummy. It would be interesting to learn what, if anything, set these 4 apart from the other rescuers who (i presume) are not dead.
posted by spazzm at 7:53 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by spazzm at 7:53 PM on November 7, 2003
I meant to link to this story about the curse of the mummy in my previous post, but forgot. Sorry.
posted by spazzm at 8:00 PM on November 7, 2003
posted by spazzm at 8:00 PM on November 7, 2003
As an interesting (but admittedly not terribly relevant) aside, the surname "Tapper" is ranked no. 623 in Sweden (1239 persons).
It means "brave".
posted by spazzm at 8:24 PM on November 7, 2003
It means "brave".
posted by spazzm at 8:24 PM on November 7, 2003
Okay, one more and then I'll shut up:
Snopes.com article: "Shoshana Johnson, the other female U.S. POW of the Iraq war, is slated to receive a far smaller disability pension than that granted Jessica Lynch."
posted by spazzm at 11:25 PM on November 7, 2003
Snopes.com article: "Shoshana Johnson, the other female U.S. POW of the Iraq war, is slated to receive a far smaller disability pension than that granted Jessica Lynch."
posted by spazzm at 11:25 PM on November 7, 2003
dejah420.
Holy. Fucking. Christ.
All we need is a grassy knoll. My mind's gonna be reeling for the next couple of days on that info. Plus the fact that the information is apparently being kept out of major news sources' archives reaks to high heaven of conspiracy.
Just... wow.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:41 AM on November 8, 2003
Holy. Fucking. Christ.
All we need is a grassy knoll. My mind's gonna be reeling for the next couple of days on that info. Plus the fact that the information is apparently being kept out of major news sources' archives reaks to high heaven of conspiracy.
Just... wow.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 12:41 AM on November 8, 2003
given everything since november 2000, i think it's worth overthrowing the goddam government.
Where do I sign up?
Well, for starters, you can register to vote at the local DMV...
posted by Uncle Ira at 2:32 AM on November 8, 2003
Where do I sign up?
Well, for starters, you can register to vote at the local DMV...
posted by Uncle Ira at 2:32 AM on November 8, 2003
Well, for starters, you can register to vote at the local DMV...
Like, uh, is that all I gotta do?
I did that back in '79, participated in EVERY election since, and am still waiting to see changes. In light of things only getting worse on a daily basis, revolution sounds tempting about now. Of course, until the movement gains the momentum necessary to actaully acomplish anything, I'll continue to work within the current system and urge everyone to lick Bush in '04.
posted by LouReedsSon at 5:16 AM on November 8, 2003
Like, uh, is that all I gotta do?
I did that back in '79, participated in EVERY election since, and am still waiting to see changes. In light of things only getting worse on a daily basis, revolution sounds tempting about now. Of course, until the movement gains the momentum necessary to actaully acomplish anything, I'll continue to work within the current system and urge everyone to lick Bush in '04.
posted by LouReedsSon at 5:16 AM on November 8, 2003
dejah, medical records are not press releases, nor are they communications to her parents. These records are part of her chart, and they document her injuries. If there had been bullet wounds, the exact details of where, what, etc. would have been documented by doctors by a medical record in her chart. That record obviously doesn't exist, since there were no bullet wounds to document in the first place. However, a medical record does exist for rape, that means they found an rape-related injury(s?) they could document. Did the government ask it's medical professionals to create a fake medical report documenting rape? We don't know, but nonetheless, it's a little harder to argue with documentation of physical evidence. (And just because the Iraqi Doctors say she was treated well, doesn't mean it didn't happen, and I'm not saying we can't trust their word, but by their own admission, they did not examine her for rape.)
In preparation for writing this book, or for pursuing further legal action, her lawyers (or her publisher's lawyers) may have actually asked to review these records, and hopefully been able to do some fact-checking. We won't know more until the book is released.
posted by lilboo at 8:20 AM on November 8, 2003
In preparation for writing this book, or for pursuing further legal action, her lawyers (or her publisher's lawyers) may have actually asked to review these records, and hopefully been able to do some fact-checking. We won't know more until the book is released.
posted by lilboo at 8:20 AM on November 8, 2003
Regarding the "coincidences" that 3 of the men who rescued Jessica Lynch are now dead (the fourth man merely being from her unit -- he wasn't even in the ambush):
What do you think the death rate is for foot combat troops? I would probably guess that it's about 10%.
Think of how small a portion of the military engages in these kind of activities. Surely a majority of the deaths in combat are from these types of soldiers. From a front-line type Marine unit such as the one that rescued Lynch, a 33% rate probably to be expected. Further, consider that the "rescue" occured in April -- they've probably seen a lot of action since then. Considering all this, 3 deaths of the 9 rescuers probably shouldn't raise a red flag.
I don't like how the gov't used Jessica as a pawn, but let's not start to sound like Freepers around here.
posted by jennak at 1:43 PM on November 8, 2003
What do you think the death rate is for foot combat troops? I would probably guess that it's about 10%.
Think of how small a portion of the military engages in these kind of activities. Surely a majority of the deaths in combat are from these types of soldiers. From a front-line type Marine unit such as the one that rescued Lynch, a 33% rate probably to be expected. Further, consider that the "rescue" occured in April -- they've probably seen a lot of action since then. Considering all this, 3 deaths of the 9 rescuers probably shouldn't raise a red flag.
I don't like how the gov't used Jessica as a pawn, but let's not start to sound like Freepers around here.
posted by jennak at 1:43 PM on November 8, 2003
jennak: I agree that we shouldn't blow our tops just yet, and you are correct in stating that it's a war and soldiers do tend to die in wars.
But you'll have to admit that only 1 of the 4 died in combat, the rest died in the US.
posted by spazzm at 9:39 PM on November 8, 2003
But you'll have to admit that only 1 of the 4 died in combat, the rest died in the US.
posted by spazzm at 9:39 PM on November 8, 2003
Considering all this, 3 deaths of the 9 rescuers probably shouldn't raise a red flag.
There were a lot more that nine soldiers in on the rescue. The large transport helicopter had sixteen people on it and I believe they used four Blackhawks with probably 6-8 men apiece on them not counting the pilots. And that's not even including the size of the Marine force used in the diversion.
posted by Cyrano at 8:58 AM on November 10, 2003
There were a lot more that nine soldiers in on the rescue. The large transport helicopter had sixteen people on it and I believe they used four Blackhawks with probably 6-8 men apiece on them not counting the pilots. And that's not even including the size of the Marine force used in the diversion.
posted by Cyrano at 8:58 AM on November 10, 2003
Pornographer says he bought nude Jessica Lynch photos; calls her 'a good kid'
By SARA KUGLER
Associated Press Writer
November 11, 2003, 12:37 PM EST
posted by matteo at 11:21 AM on November 11, 2003
By SARA KUGLER
Associated Press Writer
November 11, 2003, 12:37 PM EST
posted by matteo at 11:21 AM on November 11, 2003
and, again for the record (archival purposes, etc)
Forgotten story
Jessica Lynch's rescue obscured a day of heavy US losses
(...) Because by the end of that Sunday, 29 American service men and women would be dead, the worst US losses of the Iraq war.
By the end of the day, marines had seized both bridges, but 18 of them were dead - all from Charlie company. Scores more were injured. It was the heaviest loss of life for an individual US unit since the Mogadishu debacle of 1993.
But the story of marines is seldom heard amid all the focus on Jessica Lynch and her disputed rescue. Some I spoke to after the war expressed their frustration at the way the media had concentrated on the 20-year-old army private.
They don't blame Jessica, but they feel their role has not been given sufficient recognition, especially as they rescued some of the soldiers from her lost convoy.
However, that bloody Sunday was not the end of the story for Nasiriya. The fighting in the city continued for another 10 days. By the time the city was finally under US control, hundreds of Iraqis had been killed and wounded.
posted by matteo at 12:23 PM on November 11, 2003
Forgotten story
Jessica Lynch's rescue obscured a day of heavy US losses
(...) Because by the end of that Sunday, 29 American service men and women would be dead, the worst US losses of the Iraq war.
By the end of the day, marines had seized both bridges, but 18 of them were dead - all from Charlie company. Scores more were injured. It was the heaviest loss of life for an individual US unit since the Mogadishu debacle of 1993.
But the story of marines is seldom heard amid all the focus on Jessica Lynch and her disputed rescue. Some I spoke to after the war expressed their frustration at the way the media had concentrated on the 20-year-old army private.
They don't blame Jessica, but they feel their role has not been given sufficient recognition, especially as they rescued some of the soldiers from her lost convoy.
However, that bloody Sunday was not the end of the story for Nasiriya. The fighting in the city continued for another 10 days. By the time the city was finally under US control, hundreds of Iraqis had been killed and wounded.
posted by matteo at 12:23 PM on November 11, 2003
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posted by orange swan at 6:17 AM on November 7, 2003