Hey Hey Hey....
June 1, 2004 12:35 PM Subscribe
This Cosby show is undeserved. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics,''' Cosby said. "They're standing on the corner, and they can't speak English. I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't, why you is. '... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads.''
Kids these days!
posted by solistrato at 12:51 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by solistrato at 12:51 PM on June 1, 2004
Yeah, it's important to speak english......with the flizzm flazzm flip flop flarn.
posted by emptybowl at 12:53 PM on June 1, 2004 [1 favorite]
posted by emptybowl at 12:53 PM on June 1, 2004 [1 favorite]
I probably shouldn't just leave it at "here here!" but this is been getting some bad press for no reason. This paragraph sums it up
Though Cosby's comments were harsh, they are also right on target. And if some blacks are upset with the comedian, it's probably more for telling tales out of school - airing the community's dirty laundry - than for launching an unjust diatribe. Nothing Cosby said hasn't been uttered by other black people, but usually only among ourselves at dinner parties, on back porches, and in barbershops. Some might not be so bent out of shape if his remarks hadn't found their way into the mainstream media.
Here is another take on it.
posted by futureproof at 12:56 PM on June 1, 2004
Though Cosby's comments were harsh, they are also right on target. And if some blacks are upset with the comedian, it's probably more for telling tales out of school - airing the community's dirty laundry - than for launching an unjust diatribe. Nothing Cosby said hasn't been uttered by other black people, but usually only among ourselves at dinner parties, on back porches, and in barbershops. Some might not be so bent out of shape if his remarks hadn't found their way into the mainstream media.
Here is another take on it.
posted by futureproof at 12:56 PM on June 1, 2004
Taking away the actual content of what Cosby said for a second (I can't really address it properly anyways, being neither black nor American-raised), he should have known what fire he was going to cause by saying what he did when he did.
This is a man who has spent much of the last 40 years in front of a camera, and clearly he knew the impact his words were going to have.
I applaud him for having the courage of his convictions, and (but) I have a hunch that the outrage is happening because he's not completely wrong, even if he's running the risk of the medium outshouting the message.
And I recall Chris Rock's similar diatribe causing a lot of fairly serious discussion in the multiracial groups I was hanging out in at the time. If this does the same, more to the good.
It's not like Cosby ever has to work again, or that he even needs to maintain his career or public image. It's his mind, and his mouth, and his platform. Let's see what the dialogue brings.
posted by chicobangs at 12:57 PM on June 1, 2004
This is a man who has spent much of the last 40 years in front of a camera, and clearly he knew the impact his words were going to have.
I applaud him for having the courage of his convictions, and (but) I have a hunch that the outrage is happening because he's not completely wrong, even if he's running the risk of the medium outshouting the message.
And I recall Chris Rock's similar diatribe causing a lot of fairly serious discussion in the multiracial groups I was hanging out in at the time. If this does the same, more to the good.
It's not like Cosby ever has to work again, or that he even needs to maintain his career or public image. It's his mind, and his mouth, and his platform. Let's see what the dialogue brings.
posted by chicobangs at 12:57 PM on June 1, 2004
futureproof, you are aware you're spelling "hear" wrong... right?
I mean, you do have a firm grasp of our language, no? An ironic spelling, yes?
posted by soyjoy at 12:59 PM on June 1, 2004
I mean, you do have a firm grasp of our language, no? An ironic spelling, yes?
posted by soyjoy at 12:59 PM on June 1, 2004
I mean, you do have a firm grasp of our language, no? An ironic spelling, yes?
For all intensive purpose's, its the same difference.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:00 PM on June 1, 2004
For all intensive purpose's, its the same difference.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:00 PM on June 1, 2004
plus, it's got a comma in the middle, guv'na.
"hear, hear"
also, you should be wearing a powdered wig when you say/type it.
posted by dvdgee at 1:01 PM on June 1, 2004
"hear, hear"
also, you should be wearing a powdered wig when you say/type it.
posted by dvdgee at 1:01 PM on June 1, 2004
Futureproof, that's an excellent companion article. Hear heer.
posted by chicobangs at 1:01 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by chicobangs at 1:01 PM on June 1, 2004
Sure it's elitism. But is it wrong?
And wouldn't it be nice if white America held it's own president to the same standards that Cosby holds his race to?
posted by wfrgms at 1:02 PM on June 1, 2004
And wouldn't it be nice if white America held it's own president to the same standards that Cosby holds his race to?
posted by wfrgms at 1:02 PM on June 1, 2004
How surprising from a man whose show was about a white family who liked Jazz but was played by black actors.
posted by callmejay at 1:04 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by callmejay at 1:04 PM on June 1, 2004
I wouldn't mind so much if the usual Conservative talk radio hosts (you know who) didn't immediately hop on and praise Cosby for his harsh words. It'd be one thing if everything Cosby said was perfect, but in this one instance, Cosby speaks negatively towards African Americans, and the ultra-right comes along to praise.
This commentary by Theodore M. Shaw of the NAACP speaks volumes on how such words can damage a worthy cause of education for lower-class minorities.
posted by Down10 at 1:06 PM on June 1, 2004
This commentary by Theodore M. Shaw of the NAACP speaks volumes on how such words can damage a worthy cause of education for lower-class minorities.
posted by Down10 at 1:06 PM on June 1, 2004
All intents and purposes.
posted by pemulis at 1:10 PM on June 1, 2004 [1 favorite]
posted by pemulis at 1:10 PM on June 1, 2004 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's important to speak english......with the flizzm flazzm flip flop flarn.
That's a good one.
posted by bingo at 1:11 PM on June 1, 2004
That's a good one.
posted by bingo at 1:11 PM on June 1, 2004
I wouldn't mind so much if the usual Conservative talk radio hosts (you know who) didn't immediately hop on and praise Cosby for his harsh words. It'd be one thing if everything Cosby said was perfect, but in this one instance, Cosby speaks negatively towards African Americans, and the ultra-right comes along to praise.
Just like when a retired military officer, or a well-known conservative writer, says something critical about Iraq, Bush, or Rumsfeld and the anti-war crowd goes into spasms.
posted by techgnollogic at 1:12 PM on June 1, 2004
Just like when a retired military officer, or a well-known conservative writer, says something critical about Iraq, Bush, or Rumsfeld and the anti-war crowd goes into spasms.
posted by techgnollogic at 1:12 PM on June 1, 2004
well I guess it's time to toss these $500 sneakers and pick up a copy of hooked on phonics.
That, or if having just rolled out of bed a minute prior to posting, at least have a cup of coffee first.
posted by futureproof at 1:16 PM on June 1, 2004
That, or if having just rolled out of bed a minute prior to posting, at least have a cup of coffee first.
posted by futureproof at 1:16 PM on June 1, 2004
I'm still waiting for the revelation that he was paid under the table by Hooked on Phonics.
posted by Outlawyr at 1:19 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Outlawyr at 1:19 PM on June 1, 2004
the outrage is happening because he's not completely wrong
Bill Cosby has earned enough credibility with me that I will at least consider carefully anything he says before I throw out everything I know about him and call him a "race traitor."
There's a well-established polarity between "personal responsibility" and "compassion" in the dialectic of contemporary politics. If he says that some communities need to brush up on their personal responsibility, that doesn't necessarily negate the entire concept of compassion. As with all overblown political polarities, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
posted by scarabic at 1:19 PM on June 1, 2004
Bill Cosby has earned enough credibility with me that I will at least consider carefully anything he says before I throw out everything I know about him and call him a "race traitor."
There's a well-established polarity between "personal responsibility" and "compassion" in the dialectic of contemporary politics. If he says that some communities need to brush up on their personal responsibility, that doesn't necessarily negate the entire concept of compassion. As with all overblown political polarities, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
posted by scarabic at 1:19 PM on June 1, 2004
"How surprising from a man whose show was about a white family who liked Jazz but was played by black actors."
callmejay, how the fuck are a black family supposed to act?
posted by chunking express at 1:21 PM on June 1, 2004 [1 favorite]
callmejay, how the fuck are a black family supposed to act?
posted by chunking express at 1:21 PM on June 1, 2004 [1 favorite]
There's a well established polarity between "personal responsibility" and "compassion"
why is this?
the two need not be exclusive. it seesm quite possible to have both on a personal level. is the problem connected to the distancing implicit in "politics" where you no longer have personal contact with the people who need compassion?
it seems to be related to a lack of trust. is there any way to bring these things together again?
posted by andrew cooke at 1:29 PM on June 1, 2004
why is this?
the two need not be exclusive. it seesm quite possible to have both on a personal level. is the problem connected to the distancing implicit in "politics" where you no longer have personal contact with the people who need compassion?
it seems to be related to a lack of trust. is there any way to bring these things together again?
posted by andrew cooke at 1:29 PM on June 1, 2004
how the fuck are a black family supposed to act?
"Good Times" if they're poor, "The Jeffersons" if they're rich.
I guess these days, it's more "Boys in the Hood" if they're poor, and any Jay Z video if they're rich.
posted by Jart at 1:32 PM on June 1, 2004
"Good Times" if they're poor, "The Jeffersons" if they're rich.
I guess these days, it's more "Boys in the Hood" if they're poor, and any Jay Z video if they're rich.
posted by Jart at 1:32 PM on June 1, 2004
callmejay, how the fuck are a black family supposed to act?
However they want, of course.
I would argue that The Cosby Show was so popular among whites because it portrayed a black family acting exactly how the white audience members would want it to. Not just healthy and successful, but scrupulously well-behaved, healthy, and successful. Sidney Poitier in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Nothing different than traditional American standards of success and behavior, nothing challenging.
posted by callmejay at 1:36 PM on June 1, 2004
However they want, of course.
I would argue that The Cosby Show was so popular among whites because it portrayed a black family acting exactly how the white audience members would want it to. Not just healthy and successful, but scrupulously well-behaved, healthy, and successful. Sidney Poitier in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Nothing different than traditional American standards of success and behavior, nothing challenging.
posted by callmejay at 1:36 PM on June 1, 2004
They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for `Hooked on Phonics'
Rampant consumerism as a problem for all races, actually. And reading to your kid is free.
Of the parts I read, some if it sounds brilliant, the rest of it reads like an old man's rant.
posted by whatnot at 1:38 PM on June 1, 2004
Rampant consumerism as a problem for all races, actually. And reading to your kid is free.
Of the parts I read, some if it sounds brilliant, the rest of it reads like an old man's rant.
posted by whatnot at 1:38 PM on June 1, 2004
A huge problem in racism debates is that few acknowledge the distinction between skin color and culture. Most would agree that if I dislike (or mistreat) people due to the color of their skin, I'm behaving badly.
But what if I dislike certain rituals performed by many people who happen to have a certain skin color? Is that bad?
Most would say that we shouldn't allow all cultural habits to go uncriticised. If so, we have to allow Nazi-ism and the like.
This gets complicated, because some people SAY they dislike cultural practices, but this is just a cover to hide their actual hatred of skin color.
On the other hand, some people get falsely accused of hating black people (people with a certain skin color) when they don't -- they just hate certain practices that many black people indulge in.
I don't think we can ever move forward with the race issue until we get this clear and can openly discuss it.
Put simply, what is the black "race"? Is it people of a certain skin color or is it people who behave in a certain way? What if I am white and behave in the way many black people behave? What if I am black and DON'T behave the way many black people behave.
Another complicated issue: language. It is wrong (or bad) english to say, "He ain't here."? If so, why? Who makes the rules of what is correct English and what isn't.
On the other hand, let's say for the sake of argument that there is no "correct" English but that many people -- people in power -- believe that there is. Should children be taught to speak this supposedly-correct English so that those in power will be impressed with them, give them jobs, etc? Or is that just fueling an elitist fire.
posted by grumblebee at 1:39 PM on June 1, 2004
But what if I dislike certain rituals performed by many people who happen to have a certain skin color? Is that bad?
Most would say that we shouldn't allow all cultural habits to go uncriticised. If so, we have to allow Nazi-ism and the like.
This gets complicated, because some people SAY they dislike cultural practices, but this is just a cover to hide their actual hatred of skin color.
On the other hand, some people get falsely accused of hating black people (people with a certain skin color) when they don't -- they just hate certain practices that many black people indulge in.
I don't think we can ever move forward with the race issue until we get this clear and can openly discuss it.
Put simply, what is the black "race"? Is it people of a certain skin color or is it people who behave in a certain way? What if I am white and behave in the way many black people behave? What if I am black and DON'T behave the way many black people behave.
Another complicated issue: language. It is wrong (or bad) english to say, "He ain't here."? If so, why? Who makes the rules of what is correct English and what isn't.
On the other hand, let's say for the sake of argument that there is no "correct" English but that many people -- people in power -- believe that there is. Should children be taught to speak this supposedly-correct English so that those in power will be impressed with them, give them jobs, etc? Or is that just fueling an elitist fire.
posted by grumblebee at 1:39 PM on June 1, 2004
The solution?
Hooked on Ebonics!
I do find it kind of ridiculous that Cosby, a comedian long known for making up words and sounds for comedic effect, is upset because his "people" are misusing the English language for slang effect.
At the risk of further irony, "You betta check yo-self before you wreck yo'self." - Ice Cube.
posted by fenriq at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
Hooked on Ebonics!
I do find it kind of ridiculous that Cosby, a comedian long known for making up words and sounds for comedic effect, is upset because his "people" are misusing the English language for slang effect.
At the risk of further irony, "You betta check yo-self before you wreck yo'self." - Ice Cube.
posted by fenriq at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
You're the man, Armitage.
No, man. Your the man.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
No, man. Your the man.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
500 buck sneakers? There's sneakers that cost 500 BUCKS????
(looks at 3 year old 20 buck Spauldings on his feet)
I'm WAY out of the loop, aren't I?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
(looks at 3 year old 20 buck Spauldings on his feet)
I'm WAY out of the loop, aren't I?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
armitage, you rock beyond rock. i needed some laughs today and you're scoring with every shot. (or should i say your scoring...)
posted by lord_wolf at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by lord_wolf at 1:40 PM on June 1, 2004
Do African-Americans overcome the legacy of slavery/Jim Crow by integrating into and becoming succesful members of the mainstream, i.e. "white" America, or by maintaining a seperate and distinct culture of their own, including different speech, codes of dress, etc? Can success earned outside of white America - in a field like urban music - translate into success within white America? Must the two be mutually exclusive?
I would argue that The Cosby Show was so popular among whites because it portrayed a black family acting exactly how the white audience members would want it to. Not just healthy and successful, but scrupulously well-behaved, healthy, and successful.
Yeah, but those standards aren't just for black families. Americans like to see all families acting successful and well-adjusted. It gives us hope that someday, ours will be too. Americans loved the Cosby show for the same reasons we loved Leave it to Beaver (and more recently Friends) - because we (whites and blacks) wished our family and our lives could be like that.
posted by junkbox at 1:45 PM on June 1, 2004
I would argue that The Cosby Show was so popular among whites because it portrayed a black family acting exactly how the white audience members would want it to. Not just healthy and successful, but scrupulously well-behaved, healthy, and successful.
Yeah, but those standards aren't just for black families. Americans like to see all families acting successful and well-adjusted. It gives us hope that someday, ours will be too. Americans loved the Cosby show for the same reasons we loved Leave it to Beaver (and more recently Friends) - because we (whites and blacks) wished our family and our lives could be like that.
posted by junkbox at 1:45 PM on June 1, 2004
first of all, not to be snarky but this is some seriously old news (the speech is from May 17 I believe)...
Ah nothing makes left-leaning white people squirm like someone suggesting that perhaps some of the current problems with lower-income black society are self-inflicted. trust me, i know - because i'm so left on social issues i'm damn near laying on the floor.
but there are some seriously downward-spiral attitudes being held in the ghetto, not the least of which is clearly indicated by callmejay's insinuation that the ability to articulate one's self and perform adequately in school somehow lessens one's "blackness". i can't really think of anything more racist or toxic to african american culture than that.
i know that in a sense you were being funny, callmejay. but your post is the symptom of a much larger and very real sentiment in the black community that doing well for yourself is 'acting white' - and then on the flipside blaming the white man when your life is shitty. maybe it is the white man's fault. but cosby (comically) was making the point that it's time to rise up above that instead of giving in to the sentiment, and to stop tip toeing around the very real possibility that sometimes people's lives suck because they're making really really bad choices.
posted by glenwood at 1:52 PM on June 1, 2004
Ah nothing makes left-leaning white people squirm like someone suggesting that perhaps some of the current problems with lower-income black society are self-inflicted. trust me, i know - because i'm so left on social issues i'm damn near laying on the floor.
but there are some seriously downward-spiral attitudes being held in the ghetto, not the least of which is clearly indicated by callmejay's insinuation that the ability to articulate one's self and perform adequately in school somehow lessens one's "blackness". i can't really think of anything more racist or toxic to african american culture than that.
i know that in a sense you were being funny, callmejay. but your post is the symptom of a much larger and very real sentiment in the black community that doing well for yourself is 'acting white' - and then on the flipside blaming the white man when your life is shitty. maybe it is the white man's fault. but cosby (comically) was making the point that it's time to rise up above that instead of giving in to the sentiment, and to stop tip toeing around the very real possibility that sometimes people's lives suck because they're making really really bad choices.
posted by glenwood at 1:52 PM on June 1, 2004
I would argue that The Cosby Show was so popular among whites because it portrayed a black family acting exactly how the white audience members would want it to. Not just healthy and successful, but scrupulously well-behaved, healthy, and successful.
yes this is true. because any upstanding egalitarian white person wants their black folks on tv smoking crack and robbing banks and , oh i dunno, running through our yards with lanterns? what the fucking fuck is your point?
the cosby show did well because it was well written and funny. AGAIN, it is insinuated that being successful and wearing crazy expensive sweaters is in opposition to the way black people are supposed to act.
frankly, it sounds like YOU are the one who has ideas about how black families should behave.
posted by glenwood at 1:56 PM on June 1, 2004
yes this is true. because any upstanding egalitarian white person wants their black folks on tv smoking crack and robbing banks and , oh i dunno, running through our yards with lanterns? what the fucking fuck is your point?
the cosby show did well because it was well written and funny. AGAIN, it is insinuated that being successful and wearing crazy expensive sweaters is in opposition to the way black people are supposed to act.
frankly, it sounds like YOU are the one who has ideas about how black families should behave.
posted by glenwood at 1:56 PM on June 1, 2004
Cosby did a press release about this and I can't find it but there's a great article by a Chicago Tribune guy that blasted Cosby, then got an hour long phone call with him shortly after, which he also wrote about. I can't find that article though, but it's great.
I think though Cosby's remarks seem harsh, he really clarified them in the followup articles and simply put, a 50% graduation rate among african american men nationwide is terrible and worth doing something drastic about.
posted by mathowie at 1:58 PM on June 1, 2004
I think though Cosby's remarks seem harsh, he really clarified them in the followup articles and simply put, a 50% graduation rate among african american men nationwide is terrible and worth doing something drastic about.
posted by mathowie at 1:58 PM on June 1, 2004
grumblebee, I'm stunned to hear you say that. I've made the same argument for a few years now, just *ahem* never in any public, meaningful fashion. I feel like a lot of the schism between races that's depicted in the media is really just a difference in culture, and not understanding each other, rather than necessarily thinking another person is a lower form of life because of their skin color. Culturism (go on, you know you like it), not racism.
posted by patgas at 1:59 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by patgas at 1:59 PM on June 1, 2004
grumblebee, glenwood: you've hit the nail on the head. I posted this comment in an attempt to express similar feelings.
Here's the deal:
1) There are black people in America.
2) There is a "black culture" in America.
2a) Not all black Americans (e.g., the fictitious Cosby Family) participate in this culture.
2b) Not everybody participating in this culture is black (e.g., tons of people I knew in high school).
3) There are advantages and disadvantages of having separate cultures exist in the context of a broader culture.
Now what?
posted by Eamon at 2:00 PM on June 1, 2004
Here's the deal:
1) There are black people in America.
2) There is a "black culture" in America.
2a) Not all black Americans (e.g., the fictitious Cosby Family) participate in this culture.
2b) Not everybody participating in this culture is black (e.g., tons of people I knew in high school).
3) There are advantages and disadvantages of having separate cultures exist in the context of a broader culture.
Now what?
posted by Eamon at 2:00 PM on June 1, 2004
Should children be taught to speak this supposedly-correct English so that those in power will be impressed with them, give them jobs, etc? Or is that just fueling an elitist fire.
No, this is called 'participating in the society you live in'. The idea that using proper grammar is 'selling out to the man' isn't going to help any inner-city kids get a decent job.
posted by glenwood at 2:05 PM on June 1, 2004
No, this is called 'participating in the society you live in'. The idea that using proper grammar is 'selling out to the man' isn't going to help any inner-city kids get a decent job.
posted by glenwood at 2:05 PM on June 1, 2004
I'm sorry, this from the man who created Fat Albert and the Cosby kids? Rudy? Mushmouth?
posted by shylock at 2:06 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by shylock at 2:06 PM on June 1, 2004
I think Malcolm X said it best: I can talk with a Harvard grad or professor and use his language and speech. And I can talk to the black man on the street corner in Harlem and talk his language. (rough paraphrase).... Fact is: if you want into mainstream America--it is white and wealthy--you need to speak "true American" but if you are not interested in this, talk any way you want. You can as Maqcolm X said, talk the thelaguage you leanred in your culture and location; and you also talk the language used by those who have what you want to be a part of. And, bless Americaqn, you can choose one or the other or both.
posted by Postroad at 2:08 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Postroad at 2:08 PM on June 1, 2004
The idea that using proper grammar is 'selling out to the man' isn't going to help any inner-city kids get a decent job.
Ebonics has a "proper grammar", but I don't suppose that's the grammar you're talking about.
posted by anildash at 2:11 PM on June 1, 2004
Ebonics has a "proper grammar", but I don't suppose that's the grammar you're talking about.
posted by anildash at 2:11 PM on June 1, 2004
Cosby did a press release about this and I can't find it but there's a great article by a Chicago Tribune guy that blasted Cosby, then got an hour long phone call with him shortly after, which he also wrote about. I can't find that article though, but it's great.
Eugene Kane, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: 1, 2
posted by iceberg273 at 2:15 PM on June 1, 2004
Eugene Kane, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: 1, 2
posted by iceberg273 at 2:15 PM on June 1, 2004
I'm sorry, this from the man who created Fat Albert and the Cosby kids? Rudy? Mushmouth?
Exactly. Cosby's history goes back farther than the Cosby show. Have posters like callmejay even seen Fat Albert?
posted by vacapinta at 2:16 PM on June 1, 2004
Exactly. Cosby's history goes back farther than the Cosby show. Have posters like callmejay even seen Fat Albert?
posted by vacapinta at 2:16 PM on June 1, 2004
I should have clarified that I was speaking about television families, not real ones. The Cosbys were almost itentical to the traditional white television family. There is a black culture in America, and many of today's sitcoms with black families are situated in it rather than in the generic, white television universe.
I am not insinuating that black families should act "black." I'm pointing out that there wasn't anything uniquely black about The Cosby Show other than the actors, and in fact, one would probably have guessed that it was about a white family if they somehow didn't know the races of the actors. And I think that was both intentional and a large reason for the show's success. I also think there might be a place for that sort of thing in helping Americans to think of each other as being "normal," although ideally everybody wouldn't have to act the same to be accepted.
The Cosby Show was back then what a show depicting a gay couple and their 2.5 kids living a perfectly "normal" life would be today. Those families exist, and are common, and deserve their place on television, but they shouldn't be the only families acceptable or be the gold standard for all gay people to live up to.
I also believe that there are other paths to success besides "acting white," just as there are other ways of moving up in the corporate world besides convincing your boss that you are exactly like him or her.
posted by callmejay at 2:16 PM on June 1, 2004
I am not insinuating that black families should act "black." I'm pointing out that there wasn't anything uniquely black about The Cosby Show other than the actors, and in fact, one would probably have guessed that it was about a white family if they somehow didn't know the races of the actors. And I think that was both intentional and a large reason for the show's success. I also think there might be a place for that sort of thing in helping Americans to think of each other as being "normal," although ideally everybody wouldn't have to act the same to be accepted.
The Cosby Show was back then what a show depicting a gay couple and their 2.5 kids living a perfectly "normal" life would be today. Those families exist, and are common, and deserve their place on television, but they shouldn't be the only families acceptable or be the gold standard for all gay people to live up to.
I also believe that there are other paths to success besides "acting white," just as there are other ways of moving up in the corporate world besides convincing your boss that you are exactly like him or her.
posted by callmejay at 2:16 PM on June 1, 2004
Have posters like callmejay even seen Fat Albert?
Yes.
posted by callmejay at 2:17 PM on June 1, 2004
Yes.
posted by callmejay at 2:17 PM on June 1, 2004
Yeah, it's important to speak english......with the flizzm flazzm flip flop flarn.
A bit late... but that earned the rare literal lol.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:24 PM on June 1, 2004
A bit late... but that earned the rare literal lol.
posted by John Kenneth Fisher at 2:24 PM on June 1, 2004
The idea that using proper grammar is 'selling out to the man' isn't going to help any inner-city kids get a decent job.
Getting a decent job is selling out to the man. Using proper grammar to get the job is just plain sneaky.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:56 PM on June 1, 2004
Getting a decent job is selling out to the man. Using proper grammar to get the job is just plain sneaky.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 2:56 PM on June 1, 2004
I'm hesitant to jump in on Cosby's comments because all I've seen are three quotes cherry-picked out of context by a media that loves scandal. Even his critics seem to be less critical of what he said than the way he said it.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:58 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by KirkJobSluder at 2:58 PM on June 1, 2004
Since early April the Chairman of Britain's Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips has been speaking out against the doctrine of multiculturalism. A similar debate is now occurring in Australia as well where 'integration' is the new political pony, broadly supported by the leaders of both political parties.
Cosby's comments sound like they're coming from the same place, which is unsurprising given recent global tensions. I suppose that this could be considered a sign of the times.
posted by snarfodox at 3:03 PM on June 1, 2004
Cosby's comments sound like they're coming from the same place, which is unsurprising given recent global tensions. I suppose that this could be considered a sign of the times.
posted by snarfodox at 3:03 PM on June 1, 2004
First of all, this story is a couple weeks old, at this point, and in reading the column, it really feels like this columnist is piling on a little late, when a lot of the "offensive" comments have been placed in context.
I think it's important to read this piece that someone referred to earlier--it's a journalist who also initially slammed Cosby based on hearsay (on May 19), and then really re-thinks his initial response when he actually talks to the man.
Granted, there's obviously a bit of celebrity giddiness going on, but there don't seem to be many folks who were actually there who are slamming Cosby. Every indignant piece I've read (like this one, which is more balanced, but still bent out of shape) has been someone who "heard about" what he said.
posted by LairBob at 3:08 PM on June 1, 2004
I think it's important to read this piece that someone referred to earlier--it's a journalist who also initially slammed Cosby based on hearsay (on May 19), and then really re-thinks his initial response when he actually talks to the man.
Granted, there's obviously a bit of celebrity giddiness going on, but there don't seem to be many folks who were actually there who are slamming Cosby. Every indignant piece I've read (like this one, which is more balanced, but still bent out of shape) has been someone who "heard about" what he said.
posted by LairBob at 3:08 PM on June 1, 2004
Mainstream English sort of trumps any cultural or regional dialect. We don't see many Cajun reporters on CNN et al because most of America won't understand them. For that matter, it is unusual to even hear a reporter with a Southern or Mid-west accent.
This is obvious, but effective communication in most settings involves shared language. In China, a country with hundreds of dialects, the shared language is Mandarin. Yes, you can speak Cantonese, but if you want to do business elsewhere, you'd better know some Mandarin.
A person who only know the language or dialect of their region or culture is going to have a difficult time working effectively in other regions or with people who aren't familiar with their culture. This does not mean that, say, a Cajun speaker should not embrace their culture and language. They are a more effective person if they can speak both.
Of course, what do I know. I can't sp33k (sp34k?) the predominant language of the Internet.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:12 PM on June 1, 2004
This is obvious, but effective communication in most settings involves shared language. In China, a country with hundreds of dialects, the shared language is Mandarin. Yes, you can speak Cantonese, but if you want to do business elsewhere, you'd better know some Mandarin.
A person who only know the language or dialect of their region or culture is going to have a difficult time working effectively in other regions or with people who aren't familiar with their culture. This does not mean that, say, a Cajun speaker should not embrace their culture and language. They are a more effective person if they can speak both.
Of course, what do I know. I can't sp33k (sp34k?) the predominant language of the Internet.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:12 PM on June 1, 2004
I wonder how very different all of these arguments would be if Cosby had addressed his remarks towards 'low-rent' white people, aka "Poor White Trash?"
That is, how many of these people are condemned to trailer lives because of their language, dress and mannerisms?
His arguments are valid no matter what your race is.
posted by kablam at 3:19 PM on June 1, 2004
That is, how many of these people are condemned to trailer lives because of their language, dress and mannerisms?
His arguments are valid no matter what your race is.
posted by kablam at 3:19 PM on June 1, 2004
a little reminder of Cosby's utter rudeness to Wanda Sykes at the Emmys-- my problem with him is that he seems to have no clue about-or, more importantly, respect for-people living their lives differently from him, and how he thinks all black people should act. Materialism is ok when you're upper-middle-class and black, as in Cosby Show, but not otherwise? Get over yourself, Bill--sell us some more Jello pudding and Kodak film and cameras.
And the man that created Mushmouth has no right to denigrate anyone--even What's Happening had more respect for its characters and their lives.
All that said, maybe Mr. Cosby should stop insulting and denigrating the people he's supposedly helping. His points are lost in his disdain.
posted by amberglow at 3:22 PM on June 1, 2004
And the man that created Mushmouth has no right to denigrate anyone--even What's Happening had more respect for its characters and their lives.
All that said, maybe Mr. Cosby should stop insulting and denigrating the people he's supposedly helping. His points are lost in his disdain.
posted by amberglow at 3:22 PM on June 1, 2004
Just for clarification, I Dr. Bill Cosby has a Ph.D in education from U. Mass. This may be one of the reasons he has so much disdain for the dumbing down of the English language.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:25 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:25 PM on June 1, 2004
here, here, amberglow!
judging from the JS article, i don't doubt Cosby means well, but i think he's off the mark.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:29 PM on June 1, 2004
judging from the JS article, i don't doubt Cosby means well, but i think he's off the mark.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:29 PM on June 1, 2004
Metafilter: Sure it's elitism. But is it wrong?
maybe Mr. Cosby should stop insulting and denigrating the people he's supposedly helping.
You are begging the question, which is precisely whether making an honest observation equates to "insulting and denigrating."
And Bill Cosby > Wanda Sykes any day
posted by rushmc at 4:32 PM on June 1, 2004
maybe Mr. Cosby should stop insulting and denigrating the people he's supposedly helping.
You are begging the question, which is precisely whether making an honest observation equates to "insulting and denigrating."
And Bill Cosby > Wanda Sykes any day
posted by rushmc at 4:32 PM on June 1, 2004
I like jazz a lot. I am white. Got a problem with jazz? (ahem) .......screw you.
posted by Keyser Soze at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Keyser Soze at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2004
I'd really like it if people learned to speak more clearly, but I understand that this is probably some form of elitism, so I try not to get preachy about it. Eleven years of french immersion ruined me when it comes to grammar anyhow, so I'm not one to talk. Still, people, usually guys, who have to use the word fuckin' at least three times in every sentence drive me nuts. By using it constantly, they remove any emphasis or shock value the word might possibly retain. Come on people of all colours, we're in this together! Save the obscenities! Who's with me?
Secondly, I really doubt Mushmouth was intended to be a role model for kids. It's silly to suggest that Cosby actually helped spread poor English by creating this character. And while I might sport a pink lampshade with eyeholes, on my head, I assure you it's from a non-Fat Albert related mishap.
posted by picea at 5:35 PM on June 1, 2004
Secondly, I really doubt Mushmouth was intended to be a role model for kids. It's silly to suggest that Cosby actually helped spread poor English by creating this character. And while I might sport a pink lampshade with eyeholes, on my head, I assure you it's from a non-Fat Albert related mishap.
posted by picea at 5:35 PM on June 1, 2004
You are begging the question, which is precisely whether making an honest observation equates to "insulting and denigrating."
And Bill Cosby > Wanda Sykes any day
You can make an honest observation without insulting and denigrating--Cosby didn't do that. There are many ways to make a point--he chose perhaps the worst way, if his intention was anything more than just ranting. I believe it was.
posted by amberglow at 5:45 PM on June 1, 2004
And Bill Cosby > Wanda Sykes any day
You can make an honest observation without insulting and denigrating--Cosby didn't do that. There are many ways to make a point--he chose perhaps the worst way, if his intention was anything more than just ranting. I believe it was.
posted by amberglow at 5:45 PM on June 1, 2004
Race and cultural issues aside, it is the exact opposite of elitism to encourage people to learn to speak the shared language of a country. I mean, you're both encouraging membership into the supposedly "elite" and the "elite" is the majority of people.
posted by Nothing at 5:56 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Nothing at 5:56 PM on June 1, 2004
When we have a president that can't even speak that shared language properly, criticisms of others ring a little hollow, especially when spoken from a pedestal of wealth and fame, as Cosby enjoys. What he said is true of poor whites as well as blacks, and at an event celebrating the integration of our public schools--tailor-made for an honest discussion of our school's and our society's accomplishments and the work yet to be done, there was just a rant. It's sad.
posted by amberglow at 6:01 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by amberglow at 6:01 PM on June 1, 2004
I would argue that The Cosby Show was so popular among whites because it portrayed a black family acting exactly how the white audience members would want it to. Not just healthy and successful, but scrupulously well-behaved, healthy, and successful. Sidney Poitier in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner.Nothing different than traditional American standards of success and behavior, nothing challenging.
Well-said. For those who don't think the Cosby show family was "black enough," I guess I'd just add that not all blacks live to challenge traditional white values. Some of the most traditional family-values types I know nowadays are non-whites. People who, one generation ago, were dirt poo are sometimes very much sold on the middle class American dream, even more than white kids who grew up with all that handed to them.
My immigrant relatives are pious Christians, Disney-lovers, champion shoppers... They wear bad sweaters and drive minivans and barbecue in the park on the 4th of July. These things don't make them *not* Arabs. They're sure as hell not white.
posted by scarabic at 6:05 PM on June 1, 2004
Well-said. For those who don't think the Cosby show family was "black enough," I guess I'd just add that not all blacks live to challenge traditional white values. Some of the most traditional family-values types I know nowadays are non-whites. People who, one generation ago, were dirt poo are sometimes very much sold on the middle class American dream, even more than white kids who grew up with all that handed to them.
My immigrant relatives are pious Christians, Disney-lovers, champion shoppers... They wear bad sweaters and drive minivans and barbecue in the park on the 4th of July. These things don't make them *not* Arabs. They're sure as hell not white.
posted by scarabic at 6:05 PM on June 1, 2004
2) There is a "black culture" in America.
2a) Not all black Americans (e.g., the fictitious Cosby Family) participate in this culture.
2b) Not everybody participating in this culture is black (e.g., tons of people I knew in high school).
I'm not sure you should fairly call it "black," then. I won't say there is no black culture in America, but, like any other racial slice of the populace, their culture is multifarious and changeable, and non-exclusive with others. So what's the point in defining what's "black" and what's "white?" These are stereotypes, not cultures.
posted by scarabic at 6:09 PM on June 1, 2004
2a) Not all black Americans (e.g., the fictitious Cosby Family) participate in this culture.
2b) Not everybody participating in this culture is black (e.g., tons of people I knew in high school).
I'm not sure you should fairly call it "black," then. I won't say there is no black culture in America, but, like any other racial slice of the populace, their culture is multifarious and changeable, and non-exclusive with others. So what's the point in defining what's "black" and what's "white?" These are stereotypes, not cultures.
posted by scarabic at 6:09 PM on June 1, 2004
When we have a president that can't even speak that shared language properly, criticisms of others ring a little hollow
So let me get this straight: the only time to tell others to live better is when you live poorly? Or, the only time to criticize others is when the President lives up to some sort of subjective status of success?
Quite frankly, I don't know HOW Bush fits into the equation. Further, I don't know HOW Cosby's success makes him LESS of a role model for poorer, less successful blacks. The only thing I've understood with your past few comments in this thread is your dislike of Cosby, which is fine, but completely subjective and unsubstantiated beyond a few spurious claims against his character.
posted by BlueTrain at 6:16 PM on June 1, 2004
So let me get this straight: the only time to tell others to live better is when you live poorly? Or, the only time to criticize others is when the President lives up to some sort of subjective status of success?
Quite frankly, I don't know HOW Bush fits into the equation. Further, I don't know HOW Cosby's success makes him LESS of a role model for poorer, less successful blacks. The only thing I've understood with your past few comments in this thread is your dislike of Cosby, which is fine, but completely subjective and unsubstantiated beyond a few spurious claims against his character.
posted by BlueTrain at 6:16 PM on June 1, 2004
Or, the only time to criticize others is when the President lives up to some sort of subjective status of success?
That's exactly what Cosby did tho--he held up speaking properly as a status of success. I'm pointing out that the most powerful man on Earth can't speak properly.
Ridiculing the way some people speak and what they buy their children is what Cosby did. I don't dislike Cosby--I want him to stop insulting and denigrating others to make his point--I thought that was clear in my comments. I don't see any spurious claims--his words were crystal-clear.
posted by amberglow at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2004
That's exactly what Cosby did tho--he held up speaking properly as a status of success. I'm pointing out that the most powerful man on Earth can't speak properly.
Ridiculing the way some people speak and what they buy their children is what Cosby did. I don't dislike Cosby--I want him to stop insulting and denigrating others to make his point--I thought that was clear in my comments. I don't see any spurious claims--his words were crystal-clear.
posted by amberglow at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2004
What he said is true of poor whites as well as blacks, and at an event celebrating the integration of our public schools--tailor-made for an honest discussion of our school's and our society's accomplishments and the work yet to be done, there was just a rant.
Yes, it's true of uneducated whites as well as uneducated blacks (not to mention uneducated people of any color/race/whatever), but I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. Cosby's point, as far as I understand it, is that previous black generations fought hard for the right to education. To "have a celebration" of the victory seems a little ridiculous when the fruits of their labors are not as evident as they could be given what was fought for and won.
posted by dobbs at 6:25 PM on June 1, 2004
Yes, it's true of uneducated whites as well as uneducated blacks (not to mention uneducated people of any color/race/whatever), but I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. Cosby's point, as far as I understand it, is that previous black generations fought hard for the right to education. To "have a celebration" of the victory seems a little ridiculous when the fruits of their labors are not as evident as they could be given what was fought for and won.
posted by dobbs at 6:25 PM on June 1, 2004
I am not insinuating that black families should act "black." I'm pointing out that there wasn't anything uniquely black about The Cosby Show other than the actors, and in fact, one would probably have guessed that it was about a white family if they somehow didn't know the races of the actors.
I think that's a little unfair. I specifically remember an episode from the anniversary of Martin Luther King's death where the family watched a tape of his speech and talked about what it meant for their kids. The show might not have been about pressing "black issues" every single episode, but they didn't go out of their way to avoid including them either.
posted by web-goddess at 6:28 PM on June 1, 2004
I think that's a little unfair. I specifically remember an episode from the anniversary of Martin Luther King's death where the family watched a tape of his speech and talked about what it meant for their kids. The show might not have been about pressing "black issues" every single episode, but they didn't go out of their way to avoid including them either.
posted by web-goddess at 6:28 PM on June 1, 2004
what they buy their children is what Cosby did.
I don't think he was ridiculing what they buy their children as much as he was questioning their priorities.
It seems, tangentially at least, that Cosby was criticising the fact that "success" in black communities is often being determined on exterior qualities (the kinds of shoes one wears) rather than interior ones (education). This is of course true of most North American cultures but, again, Cosby is not concerned with the white guy in the Porsche whose values are skewed. Or, if he is concerned about it (or you think he should be), it's hardly relevant at a Brown v. Board of Education gathering.
posted by dobbs at 6:34 PM on June 1, 2004
I don't think he was ridiculing what they buy their children as much as he was questioning their priorities.
It seems, tangentially at least, that Cosby was criticising the fact that "success" in black communities is often being determined on exterior qualities (the kinds of shoes one wears) rather than interior ones (education). This is of course true of most North American cultures but, again, Cosby is not concerned with the white guy in the Porsche whose values are skewed. Or, if he is concerned about it (or you think he should be), it's hardly relevant at a Brown v. Board of Education gathering.
posted by dobbs at 6:34 PM on June 1, 2004
I have never appreciated Bill Cosby -- his humor, to me, is not funny, and "The Cosby Show" was the height of bland, unfunny, by-the-numbers, sitcommy TV.
But.
Every word that Cosby uttered was accurate. I have newfound respect for him.
posted by davidmsc at 6:45 PM on June 1, 2004
But.
Every word that Cosby uttered was accurate. I have newfound respect for him.
posted by davidmsc at 6:45 PM on June 1, 2004
a little reminder of Cosby's utter rudeness to Wanda Sykes at the Emmys
First of all, it was the Oscars.
Second, she was asking for it. In my opinion she was acting like a clown - you want to talk about selling out to the man? - in an attempt to promote a TV show. She was unfunny, and acting without dignity, which is I think what bothered Cosby.
He was rude, but I totally agree with him. Complain about being poor all you want, but until you take proactive steps to make yourself employable, get used to it.
posted by rocketman at 6:46 PM on June 1, 2004
First of all, it was the Oscars.
Second, she was asking for it. In my opinion she was acting like a clown - you want to talk about selling out to the man? - in an attempt to promote a TV show. She was unfunny, and acting without dignity, which is I think what bothered Cosby.
He was rude, but I totally agree with him. Complain about being poor all you want, but until you take proactive steps to make yourself employable, get used to it.
posted by rocketman at 6:46 PM on June 1, 2004
I have never appreciated Bill Cosby -- his humor, to me, is not funny, and "The Cosby Show" was the height of bland, unfunny, by-the-numbers, sitcommy TV.
Dig up some of his earlier standup. Himself and To My Brother Russell, Who I Slept With are uproarious.
posted by jonmc at 6:46 PM on June 1, 2004
Dig up some of his earlier standup. Himself and To My Brother Russell, Who I Slept With are uproarious.
posted by jonmc at 6:46 PM on June 1, 2004
I studied english in college. But I also love slang, regional accents and local idiom. Our language has many musical qualities and to me these different ways of speaking are analogous to different genres of music. I'm generally sympathetic to the causes of education and better parenting in the world, this goes hand-in-hand with an helping people learn to appreciate for different kinds of expression, in art and language and culture. We need to have a sense of proportion here. The virtue we seek lies somewhere between homogeneity and diversity, between understanding and tolerance.
posted by wobh at 6:50 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by wobh at 6:50 PM on June 1, 2004
My only gripe would be for Cosby to have not left himself open to being embraced by the right-wing scumbag talking heads who hate what they perceive as 'black culture' and can now self-righteously point at Bill Cosby's words. To be fair, though, Cosby was taken out of context and no matter how much you couch your criticisms in context it won't help you in the face of lazy journalists and idiot commentators who hear waht they want to hear.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:59 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by Space Coyote at 6:59 PM on June 1, 2004
On the other hand, let's say for the sake of argument that there is no "correct" English but that many people -- people in power -- believe that there is. Should children be taught to speak this supposedly-correct English so that those in power will be impressed with them, give them jobs, etc? Or is that just fueling an elitist fire.
An excellent and important question, to which I don't have an answer. But it's quite true that there is no "correct" English in the sense it's usually meant; every dialect is equally "correct" (grammatical) as used by native speakers. The culturally preferred dialect is just that, not correct. I hate elitism, but as long as that's the way the world is run it would be wrong to discourage kids from learning the preferred forms.
posted by languagehat at 6:59 PM on June 1, 2004
An excellent and important question, to which I don't have an answer. But it's quite true that there is no "correct" English in the sense it's usually meant; every dialect is equally "correct" (grammatical) as used by native speakers. The culturally preferred dialect is just that, not correct. I hate elitism, but as long as that's the way the world is run it would be wrong to discourage kids from learning the preferred forms.
posted by languagehat at 6:59 PM on June 1, 2004
Um, has anyone actually seen something resembling a transcript? I want to see what he said, in context of the entire speech.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:09 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:09 PM on June 1, 2004
Why must everything (including language) be so freaking/frigging homogenized in this country?! Sheesh. The English language is an evolving, mutating and beautiful thing. Ever talked to a glaswegian, furfooksake?
posted by shoepal at 7:10 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by shoepal at 7:10 PM on June 1, 2004
I have never appreciated Bill Cosby -- his humor, to me, is not funny
No, but Bill Cosby is a good actor. Watch some old episodes of I Spy sometime.
posted by calwatch at 7:16 PM on June 1, 2004
No, but Bill Cosby is a good actor. Watch some old episodes of I Spy sometime.
posted by calwatch at 7:16 PM on June 1, 2004
shoepal: Why must everything (including language) be so freaking/frigging homogenized in this country?!
From the commentary I've read. Focusing on Cosby's quip about language is missing the forest for the trees.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:20 PM on June 1, 2004
From the commentary I've read. Focusing on Cosby's quip about language is missing the forest for the trees.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:20 PM on June 1, 2004
this was interesting, from the speaker that followed him on stage that night, Theodore Shaw
posted by amberglow at 7:50 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by amberglow at 7:50 PM on June 1, 2004
Dig up some of his earlier standup. Himself and To My Brother Russell, Who[m!] I Slept With are uproarious.
Why is There Air? - if I recall correctly - deals quite a bit with the subject of education. And it's hilarious, too.
So their.
posted by soyjoy at 7:54 PM on June 1, 2004
Why is There Air? - if I recall correctly - deals quite a bit with the subject of education. And it's hilarious, too.
So their.
posted by soyjoy at 7:54 PM on June 1, 2004
Snarfodoz, the "multicultrual" debate exists in Australia, because Australians are completely fucking confused about what "Australian Culture" is. I think it's not too off-topic to rant on this, as it fits into this whole race / culture issue brilliantly.
Typically, anti-multiculturalists have an idealized image of what "Australian Culture" is - usually involving Banjo Patterson poems, blokes wearing Akubras, Gallipoli. They moan on and on about how all these other races don't attempt to integrate into "that culture". But what that hell does any of that have to do with contemporary Australia? On top of that, they conveniently ignore the kind of bigoted, sexist, violent, drunk side of "Australian culture" that has so recently been demonstrated by players in some of our popular sports.
What, after all, is culture? My white, anglo, 6th-generation Australian culture involves playing in bands, camping in the bush, going to dingy pubs, studying at University, being an athiest, hating Australian Rules Football. My future-father-in-law's white, anglo, 6th-generation Australian culture involves going fishing, going to church on occasion, watching the footy, going to the car races, betting on horses, drinking cheap beer at suburban poker-machine hotels. There's not much overlap. I have more overlap with foreign / immigrant friends than I do with many other white Australians.
Race and culture are correlated, but are never the same thing. Cultures are what you believe, enjoy, practice. If we're discussing integration, we have to define what people are supposed to be integrating into - my Australian culture, or my father-in-law's, or the Christian evangelicals down the street, or the farmer's son in his ute? If we're going to talk about some massive "Australian Culture" or "American Culture", then it has to be nothering more than the sum-total of all cultures practiced within that country.
People who demand and end to multiculturalism are either confusing culture for race (in which case they're racist) or they want a boring, pathetic, white-bread society where no-one has a lifestyle different than their own.
posted by Jimbob at 8:05 PM on June 1, 2004
Typically, anti-multiculturalists have an idealized image of what "Australian Culture" is - usually involving Banjo Patterson poems, blokes wearing Akubras, Gallipoli. They moan on and on about how all these other races don't attempt to integrate into "that culture". But what that hell does any of that have to do with contemporary Australia? On top of that, they conveniently ignore the kind of bigoted, sexist, violent, drunk side of "Australian culture" that has so recently been demonstrated by players in some of our popular sports.
What, after all, is culture? My white, anglo, 6th-generation Australian culture involves playing in bands, camping in the bush, going to dingy pubs, studying at University, being an athiest, hating Australian Rules Football. My future-father-in-law's white, anglo, 6th-generation Australian culture involves going fishing, going to church on occasion, watching the footy, going to the car races, betting on horses, drinking cheap beer at suburban poker-machine hotels. There's not much overlap. I have more overlap with foreign / immigrant friends than I do with many other white Australians.
Race and culture are correlated, but are never the same thing. Cultures are what you believe, enjoy, practice. If we're discussing integration, we have to define what people are supposed to be integrating into - my Australian culture, or my father-in-law's, or the Christian evangelicals down the street, or the farmer's son in his ute? If we're going to talk about some massive "Australian Culture" or "American Culture", then it has to be nothering more than the sum-total of all cultures practiced within that country.
People who demand and end to multiculturalism are either confusing culture for race (in which case they're racist) or they want a boring, pathetic, white-bread society where no-one has a lifestyle different than their own.
posted by Jimbob at 8:05 PM on June 1, 2004
Putting together what I understand him to have said, he wants blacks to adopt the traditional approach to upward mobility, namely hard work, and copying the perceived behaviour of the upper middle class. He obviously thinks that to reject that approach is to reject aspirations of success. He could be right, too. I don't know if that approach works or not, but he's hardly saying something outrageously new.
What about the other things he said, apart from the language?
"I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit," Cosby said. "Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18, and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? . . . In all of this work, we cannot blame white people."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:10 PM on June 1, 2004
What about the other things he said, apart from the language?
"I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit," Cosby said. "Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18, and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? . . . In all of this work, we cannot blame white people."
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:10 PM on June 1, 2004
PS: there's a more or less parallel debate here in New Zealand. You could substitute "Maori" for "black" and "colonisation" for "slavery". (Racism is universal, sadly). Sensible, well meaning majority types like me tend to stary well, well away.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:13 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:13 PM on June 1, 2004
I don't know what the hell you people are doing commenting on this thread anymore... it was Godwinized at about 25!!!
Most would say that we shouldn't allow all cultural habits to go uncriticised. If so, we have to allow Nazi-ism and the like.
posted by zekinskia at 8:13 PM on June 1, 2004
Most would say that we shouldn't allow all cultural habits to go uncriticised. If so, we have to allow Nazi-ism and the like.
posted by zekinskia at 8:13 PM on June 1, 2004
Buck buck number twenty six!
The Cos has always been passionate about education - I truly wonder what would have become of his son Ennis had he lived. I grew up watching Fat Albert, and the show always felt like it was writing about the characters he knew and loved. Write what you know - the show never felt judgmental about these characters. Thirty years later it might not be so pretty to some, but TV overall was a different environment. Who could put out a show like that today, or even All in the Family? (Or ABC's Superstars. Or Pink Lady and Jeff.)
I've interpreted the Cos (again, we are on a first name basis) as saying effective language skills are a tool to improve your situation. This is where the Malcolm X idea of being able to speak different vernaculars becomes troublesome because if you always have your language reflect your audience, what becomes of your own voice? That idea of speaking po' folks to the poor and speaking educated among the educated is patronizing as well; you handcuff your audience with your own stereotypes.
posted by TomSophieIvy at 8:15 PM on June 1, 2004
The Cos has always been passionate about education - I truly wonder what would have become of his son Ennis had he lived. I grew up watching Fat Albert, and the show always felt like it was writing about the characters he knew and loved. Write what you know - the show never felt judgmental about these characters. Thirty years later it might not be so pretty to some, but TV overall was a different environment. Who could put out a show like that today, or even All in the Family? (Or ABC's Superstars. Or Pink Lady and Jeff.)
I've interpreted the Cos (again, we are on a first name basis) as saying effective language skills are a tool to improve your situation. This is where the Malcolm X idea of being able to speak different vernaculars becomes troublesome because if you always have your language reflect your audience, what becomes of your own voice? That idea of speaking po' folks to the poor and speaking educated among the educated is patronizing as well; you handcuff your audience with your own stereotypes.
posted by TomSophieIvy at 8:15 PM on June 1, 2004
After reading this thread, I simply cannot believe how many people want to completely dismiss the merits of what Cosby said.
posted by pmurray63 at 8:34 PM on June 1, 2004
posted by pmurray63 at 8:34 PM on June 1, 2004
So what's the point in defining what's "black" and what's "white?"
What indeed?
posted by rushmc at 8:37 PM on June 1, 2004
What indeed?
posted by rushmc at 8:37 PM on June 1, 2004
my problem with him is that he seems to have no clue about-or, more importantly, respect for-people living their lives differently from him
No, his lack of respect is for people who -- by virtue of their lack of foresight and lack of ability of willingless to set meaningful priorities and goals for themselves and their children -- are perpetuating the seemingly unending cycles of poverty, miseducation, unemployment, violence and crime that are rampant in lower-class black communities. And rightly so. Not every "lifestyle choice" deserves respect.
posted by Dreama at 10:09 PM on June 1, 2004
No, his lack of respect is for people who -- by virtue of their lack of foresight and lack of ability of willingless to set meaningful priorities and goals for themselves and their children -- are perpetuating the seemingly unending cycles of poverty, miseducation, unemployment, violence and crime that are rampant in lower-class black communities. And rightly so. Not every "lifestyle choice" deserves respect.
posted by Dreama at 10:09 PM on June 1, 2004
Can I just point out that in many European countries that there are local dialects which vary hugely across a nation and which are regarded as completely normal - however, individuals are expected (as the norm) to be able to speak fluently in the standard language form for that country as well. Germany is one example, there are others.
posted by biffa at 2:44 AM on June 2, 2004
posted by biffa at 2:44 AM on June 2, 2004
however, individuals are expected (as the norm) to be able to speak fluently in the standard language form for that country as well.
And those that don't make an effort as such are generally regarded as ill mannered, boorish and badly educated. I don't know German, but in a language where the third person is employed for strangers as a sign of polite respect, speaking only in dialect carries a heavier stigma than one might expect.
posted by romakimmy at 5:04 AM on June 2, 2004
And those that don't make an effort as such are generally regarded as ill mannered, boorish and badly educated. I don't know German, but in a language where the third person is employed for strangers as a sign of polite respect, speaking only in dialect carries a heavier stigma than one might expect.
posted by romakimmy at 5:04 AM on June 2, 2004
Getting a decent job is selling out to the man. Using proper grammar to get the job is just plain sneaky.
*wiping coffee off of monitor post-spew*
LOL!
and in summary, what dreama said.
posted by glenwood at 5:38 AM on June 2, 2004
*wiping coffee off of monitor post-spew*
LOL!
and in summary, what dreama said.
posted by glenwood at 5:38 AM on June 2, 2004
Jimbob: Comment of the week. Thanks for an injection of good sense into this contentious topic.
posted by languagehat at 8:48 AM on June 2, 2004
posted by languagehat at 8:48 AM on June 2, 2004
Just wanted to mention he had just had cataract surgery at the time of comment - so he might have been a bit grumpy to be dealing with the irritating Wanda Skyes.
posted by agregoli at 9:02 AM on June 2, 2004
posted by agregoli at 9:02 AM on June 2, 2004
I think that's a little unfair. I specifically remember an episode from the anniversary of Martin Luther King's death where the family watched a tape of his speech and talked about what it meant for their kids. The show might not have been about pressing "black issues" every single episode, but they didn't go out of their way to avoid including them either.
This is Metafilter. There are people here who would not have been satisfied with the Cosby Show unless Cliff Huxtable was calling for the extermination of Whitey in every episode.
posted by darukaru at 9:18 AM on June 2, 2004
This is Metafilter. There are people here who would not have been satisfied with the Cosby Show unless Cliff Huxtable was calling for the extermination of Whitey in every episode.
posted by darukaru at 9:18 AM on June 2, 2004
On the language issue: having a universal dialect is an important part of a culture and everyone should be able to speak correctly in this dialect. Having regional dialects is good, too, in their place. Americans are kind of silly, we think that we have such weird impenetrable dialects when, really, it's nothing compared to a language like German, where schoolkids in Ostfriesland have to agonize over adjective endings as much as any foreign student because their dialect doesn't have them. But in America this is tied to race and politics to the extent that we have a "business" language (the language of upper-class whites), minority dialects which are respected because no one wants to be accused of racism, and dialects such as those of poor whites, particularly poor Southern whites, which are considered ignorance, not real dialects at all.
Cosby's main complaint, it seems, is that "black culture" does not support or value education, which is true. Of course, this is part of a nationwide lack of respect for education. The only groups that care about education care about it secondarily because they see it as a way to financial success.
posted by dagnyscott at 9:40 AM on June 2, 2004
Cosby's main complaint, it seems, is that "black culture" does not support or value education, which is true. Of course, this is part of a nationwide lack of respect for education. The only groups that care about education care about it secondarily because they see it as a way to financial success.
posted by dagnyscott at 9:40 AM on June 2, 2004
The only groups that care about education care about it secondarily because they see it as a way to financial success.
That's why most people care about education. Why would you put yourself through it if there weren't some kind of measurable reward at the other end? What, to get laid? Brotha, please.
For most people who go to college (myself included), the sheer pleasure of knowing shit is not enough of an incentive to go that deep into debt. I can learn shit on the outside, for nothing. That attitude might be a higher percentage in the States than elsewhere, but that's human nature. Work generally should bring a reward.
(Alright. There's peer pressure and draft avoidance, but those are separate non-Cosby-specific issues.)
posted by chicobangs at 10:11 AM on June 2, 2004
That's why most people care about education. Why would you put yourself through it if there weren't some kind of measurable reward at the other end? What, to get laid? Brotha, please.
For most people who go to college (myself included), the sheer pleasure of knowing shit is not enough of an incentive to go that deep into debt. I can learn shit on the outside, for nothing. That attitude might be a higher percentage in the States than elsewhere, but that's human nature. Work generally should bring a reward.
(Alright. There's peer pressure and draft avoidance, but those are separate non-Cosby-specific issues.)
posted by chicobangs at 10:11 AM on June 2, 2004
There's peer pressure and draft avoidance,...
and hot co-eds. Which may be a Cosby specific issue, we just don't know.
posted by jonmc at 10:27 AM on June 2, 2004
and hot co-eds. Which may be a Cosby specific issue, we just don't know.
posted by jonmc at 10:27 AM on June 2, 2004
Hrm. Or to put it another way.
There is a long history in minority activism in America that the babysteps taken towards promoting equality by the larger culture are not sufficient, so minorities need to create their own systems of education and support. This goes back even before the civil war. Even post-reconstruction you had activists like Ida B. Wells who argued that if the government was not going to do anything about voting rights, segregation and lynching, that Blacks should create their own communities. Early on the NAACP was not just about changing the government, but about promoting education as well. So Cosby is echoing 200 years worth of advocacy.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:32 AM on June 2, 2004
There is a long history in minority activism in America that the babysteps taken towards promoting equality by the larger culture are not sufficient, so minorities need to create their own systems of education and support. This goes back even before the civil war. Even post-reconstruction you had activists like Ida B. Wells who argued that if the government was not going to do anything about voting rights, segregation and lynching, that Blacks should create their own communities. Early on the NAACP was not just about changing the government, but about promoting education as well. So Cosby is echoing 200 years worth of advocacy.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:32 AM on June 2, 2004
Perhaps, but there's a lot of harsh distortion on that echo.
Wanda Sykes may be a corporate sell-out (though not completely unfunny), but if you're going to call her out on her lack of class (on Oscar night, fergodsake), don't abandon your own high ground in the process by being openly rude. That was Cosby's logistical mistake, which he made again this week. What he said got eclipsed by how he said it.
Again, he has a point. I think people largely agree with it, whether they'll admit it or not. But if you're going to set an example, then dammit, set an example. He's starting a turf war between himself and the boys in the hood, which (1) he won't win, because he ain't even on TV anymore, much less the street, and (2) by throwing down like this, he's stepped off the example he's hoping the "Black Community" will set in the first place.
So he gets written off as an old man ranting at a world he no longer understands. Which is funny when Aaron McGruder does it, but not so much from the Cos.
posted by chicobangs at 11:16 AM on June 2, 2004
Wanda Sykes may be a corporate sell-out (though not completely unfunny), but if you're going to call her out on her lack of class (on Oscar night, fergodsake), don't abandon your own high ground in the process by being openly rude. That was Cosby's logistical mistake, which he made again this week. What he said got eclipsed by how he said it.
Again, he has a point. I think people largely agree with it, whether they'll admit it or not. But if you're going to set an example, then dammit, set an example. He's starting a turf war between himself and the boys in the hood, which (1) he won't win, because he ain't even on TV anymore, much less the street, and (2) by throwing down like this, he's stepped off the example he's hoping the "Black Community" will set in the first place.
So he gets written off as an old man ranting at a world he no longer understands. Which is funny when Aaron McGruder does it, but not so much from the Cos.
posted by chicobangs at 11:16 AM on June 2, 2004
That was Cosby's logistical mistake, which he made again this week. What he said got eclipsed by how he said it.
Exactly.
posted by amberglow at 11:22 AM on June 2, 2004
Exactly.
posted by amberglow at 11:22 AM on June 2, 2004
"even more than white kids who grew up with all that handed to them."
Let's please remember that merely being white doesn't mean that the keys to the kingdom are handed over to you at birth. Plenty of white kids are poor, have parents who don't value education, are raised on TV, and face future of service-industry jobs, petty crime, and low expectations.
Let's also remember that the fantasy "white family" of television shows isn't a mirror of real white families. It is, rather, a projection--wishful thinking. As such, it resonates with people of all races who have a shared interest in achieving some sort of middle class utopia. But it's not the real thing, and it never was.
posted by wheat at 2:07 PM on June 2, 2004
Let's please remember that merely being white doesn't mean that the keys to the kingdom are handed over to you at birth. Plenty of white kids are poor, have parents who don't value education, are raised on TV, and face future of service-industry jobs, petty crime, and low expectations.
Let's also remember that the fantasy "white family" of television shows isn't a mirror of real white families. It is, rather, a projection--wishful thinking. As such, it resonates with people of all races who have a shared interest in achieving some sort of middle class utopia. But it's not the real thing, and it never was.
posted by wheat at 2:07 PM on June 2, 2004
True dat, wheat. We can't all be so lucky as to have Alan Thicke for a father or Doris Roberts as our wacky auntie. And yet I cannot help but cry myself to sleep at night, under my ratty blanket on the floor of my trailer, praying silently for that very thing.
(O, misery! Wouldst that thou might forsake me for nae one moment, that I might know joy? Just one wacky gay friend who never knocks before entering, Ann Magnuson in a walk-on as my ice-queen boss, a special appearance by Richard Lewis, okay then, Emmanuel Lewis, is that too much to ask? How long, O Lawd, how long must I wait?)
posted by chicobangs at 2:15 PM on June 2, 2004
(O, misery! Wouldst that thou might forsake me for nae one moment, that I might know joy? Just one wacky gay friend who never knocks before entering, Ann Magnuson in a walk-on as my ice-queen boss, a special appearance by Richard Lewis, okay then, Emmanuel Lewis, is that too much to ask? How long, O Lawd, how long must I wait?)
posted by chicobangs at 2:15 PM on June 2, 2004
Of course, this is part of a nationwide lack of respect for education. The only groups that care about education care about it secondarily because they see it as a way to financial success.
Truer words were never typed.
That's why most people care about education.
And most people are fools. Coincidence?
posted by rushmc at 4:02 PM on June 2, 2004
Truer words were never typed.
That's why most people care about education.
And most people are fools. Coincidence?
posted by rushmc at 4:02 PM on June 2, 2004
And most people are fools. Coincidence?
So...how's the air up there on Mount Olympus?
posted by jonmc at 6:53 AM on June 3, 2004
So...how's the air up there on Mount Olympus?
posted by jonmc at 6:53 AM on June 3, 2004
For most people who go to college (myself included), the sheer pleasure of knowing shit is not enough of an incentive to go that deep into debt. I can learn shit on the outside, for nothing.
By "education," I didn't mean just organized education like college. I meant getting things out of K-12 education and any types of self-education and self-improvement. I meant that, for most of American society, sitting down with a book and educating yourself is not encouraged. That's what needs to change.
posted by dagnyscott at 7:49 AM on June 3, 2004
By "education," I didn't mean just organized education like college. I meant getting things out of K-12 education and any types of self-education and self-improvement. I meant that, for most of American society, sitting down with a book and educating yourself is not encouraged. That's what needs to change.
posted by dagnyscott at 7:49 AM on June 3, 2004
having a universal dialect is an important part of a culture
So the ancient Greeks didn't have a culture. Interesting.
posted by languagehat at 9:43 AM on June 3, 2004
So the ancient Greeks didn't have a culture. Interesting.
posted by languagehat at 9:43 AM on June 3, 2004
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posted by futureproof at 12:48 PM on June 1, 2004