Touching, sad, chilling account of obesity in America.

July 19, 2004 6:37 AM

Touching, sad, chilling account of obesity in America People outside the US have this view of us as disgustingly, morbidly obese...and it can be true. This article from the Washington Post Sunday Magazine (free registration may be required) put a touching, terrifying, human face on one of America's biggest problems.
posted by chinese_fashion (219 comments total)

This is going to sound shitty and moralistic, as the Baskins seem like perfectly nice people, but is there a limit to how much sympathy you can feel when such afflictions are largely self-inflicted. Deke is taking strides to deal with it, though it might be too late for him, his daughter has already set out on a similar path.

At times I do feel this way, but I can't make some specious argument about how it's all the fault of our if-it-feels-good-do-it-now consumerist culture; it is about personal responsbility, discipline, and dealing with whatever pain or personal void you have in a productive way.

I have a 40 year old sister who is also pushing the 350 lb. mark and though it breaks my heart to see her in such day-to-day misery, she's not going to come through it until she takes responsibility for condition, and directly deals with the underlying issues, the psychic pain that has caused a life of non-stop overeating. It's essentially slow suicide, and no amount of intervention or pleading or arguing or empathising or haranguing seems to do any good.

I can't presume to know the whys and wherefores of the Baskins' problems, but unless they take a good look at why giving in to their appetites have resulted in such physically dangerous conditions, they'll never save themselves.
posted by psmealey at 7:09 AM on July 19, 2004

Article: Keep your Flab On, an interview with Paul Campos, author of The Obesity Myth.

There may be some inaccuracies in the article - interviews are notoriously hard for authors to control and details that are right in the book are not always on the author's tip of the tongue. But don't assume that everyone agrees with the premise that being fat will kill you.

I sure don't.
posted by kalessin at 7:15 AM on July 19, 2004

Hard when the TV is always telling you about some great new fried chicken deal down the street or a cheeseburger to rival the Double Whopper

A statistic I remember from Supersize Me is if you were to sit down your child to a healthy meal 3 times a day and tell the child the benefits of eating healthy at every meal, you would communicate this around 1000 times a year. Through advertisment, in the same year, the child may see 10,000 advertisments for trash food like Skittles, Coke, and Wendy's.

When seeing a movie is a large Cineplex, before the movie begins, you may see 10 advertisments for Coke and Hershey's Kisses.

It's no doubt a difficult temptation, when everything around you is suggesting you eat, buy a car, eat, eat, take Paxil, eat, eat, eat.

Yet this does not seem to soften the sharp urge I feel every time I see someone obese, which is often, to walk to them and say, "Why don't you lose some fucking weight?"
posted by the fire you left me at 7:23 AM on July 19, 2004

The thorny issue of obesity has cropped up on metafilter before and in at least one instance led to several nasty contributions by one or two members. However, after reading that story, I did empathise with deke and the situation that he found himself in. It seems that these people have almost given up upon themselves, giving in to the powerful urge to consume vast quantities of food, with the ensuing collateral damage inflicted upon their bodies very evident. There are no easy solutions, diets which have been passed down the generations are literally killing these people. But, hope springs eternal, as I recall Finland used to have the highest rate of coronary heart disease in the developed world. This was curbed through government led initatives to encourage people to both exercise and eat healthily, proving there is hope for people like deke.
posted by johnnyboy at 7:24 AM on July 19, 2004

But don't assume that everyone agrees with the premise that being fat will kill you.

This may be true, but to a point. As a 6'0" man of 240 lbs (BMI = 22), I can tell you that I am considered obese by every "standard" measure I can think of. However, I play tennis 3x per week at an expert level (by USTA standards), I have a cholesterol count of less than 100, and I am in good to excellent cardiovascular shape (I can run a 6.5 minute mile without problem).

But when someone has developed diabetes as a result of his/her obesity, or the fact of climbing a flight of stairs or other mildly rigorous daily activity makes the person need to sit down and catch his/her breath, it's pretty evident that serious health problems are inevitable ahead.
posted by psmealey at 7:27 AM on July 19, 2004

I'm sure that part of the reason the South is more obese than the rest of the country is not only because of "soul food," but because it's really really hot and muggy there. Who wants to run around outside?
posted by agregoli at 7:29 AM on July 19, 2004

I don't think people have no control over their weight, but if you have a genetic predisposition to having it, in America, you are screwed.

I mean, lets not even talk about the gross (gross) amounts of corn we eat.
posted by Keyser Soze at 7:31 AM on July 19, 2004

This may be true, but to a point. As a 6'0" man of 240 lbs (BMI = 22),

Actually, you're BMI at that height and weight is 32.5, I know because 2 years ago I was the same height and weight.
posted by corpse at 7:32 AM on July 19, 2004

BMI is not a good way to measure obesity. It's just an easy way.
posted by smackfu at 7:38 AM on July 19, 2004

"Why don't you lose some fucking weight

I trust you wouldn't mind if they told you to mind your own fucking business, right? Do you walk up to people with long hair and say "why don't you get a fucking haircut?", or anorexics and say "why don't you gain some fucking weight"? I'm sure you don't (despite the fact that anorexia is just as or even more unhealthy). So why is it any of your business if someone is overweight? And why is it that obesity brings out this rage and lack of manners in people, when few other things do to this degree?
posted by biscotti at 7:39 AM on July 19, 2004

psmeasley, my issue is with the often conflated concepts that being fat will kill you. I have no beef with the idea that not being fit will do you long-term damage, but I do have serious problems with the idea that simply being fat is an indicator of lack of fitness and therfore that being fat will do you long-term damage.

Do think about actually reading where I linked to before going further. Dr. Campos makes some very cogent points about how we tend to think about issues regarding fitness, health and fatness that I'd be sorry to see you miss.
posted by kalessin at 7:40 AM on July 19, 2004

BMI calculator (in Metric and Imperial)
posted by trharlan at 7:42 AM on July 19, 2004

Forget measurements. If yhou look and feel yhou weigh too m uch, you do, unless you have an eating disorder. But then you know that too. As for the South: Down there gravy is considered a beveridge. I went to a rural area, small town, and every other building was for dialysis. Was told that all the talks, lectures etc do not change eating habits...note the reasonably wealthy: seldom have weight problem. why?
posted by Postroad at 7:45 AM on July 19, 2004

But don't assume that everyone agrees with the premise that being fat will kill you.

And not everyone agrees that HIV causes AIDS, and there are still people that maintain that flouridated water is a communist plot and the case against dioxin is bad science. We call those people "blinded by their own agenda" or, in extreme examples, "paranoid schizophrenics."

Regardless, the article is very interesting and it's good that I read it. Obesity is generally self-inflicted and therefore easy to dismiss in the abstract, but the article puts a human face on it and it would take a very cold person to sneer at that man's hardship. I will try very hard to think of this article the next time a very fat person annoys me just by being in the way. I'll be on my way momentarily, but that person I consider an obstruction has a lot more to deal with than being a minute late.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:46 AM on July 19, 2004

kalessin: I regard 'The Obesity Myth' as an extremely irresponsible piece of pseudo science. As far as I am aware there is NO scientific support for the arguments made (it's telling that they're contained in a publihed book rather than in scientific articles). Studies, such as this and this, continually show that being overweight means that you don't live as long PERIOD (the first referenced research shows that being active does not stop being fat killing you)

Now, I'm not saying that the american obsession with weight is a healthy one, but fat people die younger!
posted by daveg at 7:49 AM on July 19, 2004

note the reasonably wealthy: seldom have weight problem. why?

It's a very interesting class issue that isn't addressed enough. In societies where food is scarce, being fat is seen as a sign of affluence. In a society like ours, where effectively everyone has access to many more calories than they need, obesity is seen as being a sign of ignorant poverty.

I think that the reason poor people are over-represented among the obese is that the availability of food is one thing that poor people don't have to worry about, so it's an easy comfort that becomes abused. That and, because they often lack education and by definition lack money, poor people are victimized with the low prices and advertised convenience of bad food.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:53 AM on July 19, 2004

I know I shouldn't say it, but it's easier sometimes to just give them a broken-off bit of Butterfingers. Or some cakes, chips, a lollypop, a cheap fruit juice.

Her kids don't stand a chance. This was the saddest sentence of all.
posted by pieoverdone at 7:54 AM on July 19, 2004

Yet this does not seem to soften the sharp urge I feel every time I see someone obese, which is often, to walk to them and say, "Why don't you lose some fucking weight?"

The urge? You're already doing it with your disapproving looks and gestures. Don't think for a second that the people you pass by on the street have no idea what you think of them. I don't think you get any upstanding citizen award for doing everything but verbalizing your disapproval.
posted by PrinceValium at 7:55 AM on July 19, 2004

note the reasonably wealthy: seldom have weight problem. why?

possible dubious socio-biology speculation: we evolved to cope with starvation. natural food supplies fluctuate wildly. storing food in the body as fat made evolutionary sense. this would be reflected by attitudes in society - more powerful people, with more resource, would be fatter. heavier women would be more likely to be able to feed a baby, even during hard times. power and fertility implies sexy (see old paintings of sexy fatties).

this will only change when conditions are so stable that food is guaranteed. that is not the case for the poor in rich societies, or the rich in poor societies. for the rich in rich societies, however, a new way of signalling power is available - having a weight so low that you cannot survive a famine. the skinny millionaires daughter is saying i am so rich i don't need to worry about food.

(i think i may be lifting this largely from konner's the tangled wing)

oh. or what Mayor Curley said.
posted by andrew cooke at 7:55 AM on July 19, 2004

Smackfu wrote:

BMI is not a good way to measure obesity. It's just an easy way.

Not only is the BMI not a good way to measure obesity, it's completely useless for anything outside of providing a simple ratio of height to weight.

Simple BMI does not establish obesity. Percentage of body fat does.

I'm not an athlete or a bodybuilder, but I am 6'0 and hover between 230-240 lbs. At my last measurement, I came in at 18% body fat, which according to my own physician is completely acceptable; over 23% being obese, according to him, while most serious athletes hover around 7-10%, and anything under 5% would be dangerous, health-wise. Yet, the BMI would classify such notorious Twinkie Gluttons as Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, and Bruce Willis as "Obese". Hmph.
posted by spirit72 at 8:00 AM on July 19, 2004

Agregoli: I'm sure that part of the reason the South is more obese than the rest of the country is not only because of "soul food," but because it's really really hot and muggy there. Who wants to run around outside?

The South is more obese? I thought the upper midwest had it in the bag, especially for childhood obesity.

I lost about 10 lbs when I moved from Michigan to Malaysia (a few degrees off the equator). I find the constant heat and humidity reduces my appetite a good deal. Plus your body doesn't need any fat for insulation purposes, so you don't put on that "winter weight" that northeners often do.
posted by BinGregory at 8:01 AM on July 19, 2004

Ugh. I agree pieoverdone, that's just awful. That's a form of child abuse, IMO. I'm sure that I already know that answer to this, but do schools bother to teach even basic nutrition these days? At the very least, kids armed with basic knowledge of the value of a well-balanced meai, could try to instruct the parent.
posted by psmealey at 8:02 AM on July 19, 2004

Musing:

It seems that here on Metafilter, the two sides to the obesity debate boil down to "Accept yourself as you are" and "Lose weight". But I don't think you can have one without the other. You can't lose weight if you hate yourself. It takes too much time and investment in yourself to lose a substantial amount of weight if you think you're a big fat worthless pile of shit.

Losing weight is hard. While the mechanics of it do boil down to "eat less, move more", that statement is the benchmark for "easier said than done". Once you've gotten to the point of being obese, you haven't just forgotten to exercise, you've made a lifestyle out of eating too much. You have a million excuses for not being active. You have grown dependent, either physically or psychologically, on certain types of fattening foods. You have to overcome TV, magazines, your friends, and most difficult of all, your own brain.

Anyway, I have some sympathy for the very fat, having spent the majority of my 20s in the same very fat boat. I think that if someone is really, honestly happy at their current weight, that's wonderful for that person. And I also think that no matter how many times a week you play tennis or how healthy your numbers are now, you will be amazed at how much better you'll feel if you were within a healthy BMI range (I use that indicator for lack of anything better right now--I agree it doesn't take into account the very muscular). Imagine how carrying a second, 100 pound human (again, asuming this extra human isn't contributing to your strength via muscle mass) on your back at all times would hamper your performance and general happiness.

On preview: note the reasonably wealthy: seldom have weight problem. why?

Processed, fattening sodium laden foods are cheaper. Hamburger Helper made using a pound of cheap, high-fat percentage beef is cheaper and quicker than a tofu and vegetable stir fry with brown rice. You can't join a gym, take classes, go to yoga, afford exercise tapes, and do you have time to exercise if you're working multiple jobs or overtime at an exhausting, low paying job? Super-sized extra value meals at fast food places, promoted as the way to show your family you care. And try getting fresh vegetables, tofu, rice, chicken broth, etc., in your food bank boxes. And being poor is stressful. And fattening foods are comforting.
posted by jennyb at 8:07 AM on July 19, 2004

For whatever it's worth, the author will be doing on online chat tomorrow at 1:00 pm EST/10 am PST.
posted by ph00dz at 8:15 AM on July 19, 2004

Yet, the BMI would classify such notorious Twinkie Gluttons as Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sylvester Stallone, and Bruce Willis as "Obese".

BMI is for use on "ordinary" people. your examples are all people who not only spend a lot of time working on their body, but have been selected out by our society as particularly unusual. you can't criticise a general, broad-brush tool for not working on the statistical outliers. worse, to do so simply pushes the idea that the index is useless to people who might otherwise use it to avoid medical problems.

also, body fat and bmi are correlated - on average, one measures the other (of course).
posted by andrew cooke at 8:16 AM on July 19, 2004

Biological factors to be considered:

The sugar substitute fructose is now considered very bad for fat gain, as the body adjusts its metabolism for sucrose, but not for fructose. Fructose just turns into fat straight away. Being cheaper than sucrose, it is widely used in processed foods as a sweetener.

Exercise beyond mild exercise is not widely understood for its effect on different people. It is very beneficial for some, but it is destructive to others. Unfortunately, there is no recognition that people who cannot maintain a strenuous regimen of exercise suffer from anything other than a "lack of will." This is despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

Height and weight tables were established many years ago by the insurance company Metropolitan Life. These were not based on actuarial data, however, but on the scientific opinion of the time. Changes to them still aren't based on actuarial data, just current theory. Wouldn't it be better to base height and weight tables on resultant health and longevity than on theory?
posted by kablam at 8:22 AM on July 19, 2004

Moving from an affluent area of California to an average part of Texas was a very large culture shock for me. There are far, far more obese people here. I'm completely oblivious to their dietary habits, but my own personal opinion--after putting on nearly 20 pounds, the first significant change in my weight up or down in 20 years--is that it's not just cheap, pre-packaged, processed food, it's the damned portion sizes served at restaurants here...they're gargantuan.

I've quit dining out as a result.
posted by WolfDaddy at 8:28 AM on July 19, 2004

The poor can't afford gyms, often don't have leisure time for exercise, are in general less educated, and don't have access to the same healthy foods. Additionally, their peers (being poor) are often obese as well and will often actively resist their attempts at weight loss.

They deserve compassion, not ridicule.
posted by callmejay at 8:31 AM on July 19, 2004

I was told, by an epidemiologist - specializing in cancer - at Johns Hopkins, about ten years ago, that obesity was probably the #1 cancer risk factor. That working assumption has held up rather well over time. Obesity is also one of the major risk factors for cardiovascular disease, but it hasn't been included so far in cardiovascular risk assessment calculations because researchers haven't yet figured out how do do so. When they surmount the technical challenge, it'll be there.

psmealey reminds us that one's BMI is only one gauge of health and that heavier people can be exceptionally healthy. I don't think this holds at the farther reaches of obesity though.

"Finland used to have the highest rate of coronary heart disease in the developed world. This was curbed through government led initatives to encourage people to both exercise and eat healthily, proving there is hope for people like deke." ( johnyboy ) - Of course, that isn't so likely to happen in the US for the fact that the fast food industry currently exerts a huge sway over US government

House bans fast-food lawsuits - Now, I do happen to think that people are responsible for what they eat.

But Congress is also in the pocket of the fast food industry. Billions of advertising dollars are spent pushing fast food, and advertising is proven to work. Further, a lot of those ad dollars target children.

Many of the children so targeted will become obese, and many also will develop early-onset diabetes. Some children who develop diabetes are not fat at all. Type 1 diabetes is an autoimmune disorder in which the immune systems destroys the pancreatic cells that produce insulin. But, type 2 diabetes is typically associated with obesity and has been occuring recently at alarming rates among children and teens.

"Super-size Me" mentioned a grim fact I hadn't known - early onset diabetes lops about a decade and sometimes two off victim's lives - 15 years, on average.

Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation : "increased obesity has led to a recent "epidemic" in cases of Type 2 diabetes in young adults and children under 10 years of age." - ( Eyewitness News) "Type 2 diabetes has traditionally surfaced in adults over the age of 40. But Las Vegas endocrinologist Freddie Toffel says there's an alarming trend. "And the real sad thing is we're seeing more and more children developing type 2 diabetes. There are certain practices of pediatric endocrinologists in the past who didn't know to treat type 2 because it was non-existent. And now, half their practice is type 2," said Dr. Freddie Toffel, endocrinologist."

It's an evil enterprise, and current US Congress members showed a distinct lack "personal responsibility" in failing to confront that.

Why couldn't Congress have attached a partial ban on fast food ads - especially those which target children - to the "Personal Responsibility fast food lawsuit ban" bill ? Well, because a daily diet of industry lobbying has turned their sense of personal morality to flab.

________________________

My local HMO-run pharmacy just - and for no reason at all that I could see, but it's practically next dor to a "7-11" - put in a chip vending rack in it's waiting room. The chips could not be described - by any stretch - as "healthy". Obese people come in, wait for their medicines to combat cardiovascular ideases, high blood pressure, diabetes, and s on - and get to stare at all the chips.
_________________________

I wrote this little satire of men I would see at the gym, when I was working out a lot four years ago. It's related to the subject here :

"Their "strength" was in their arms, while mine was in my legs, butt, and torso.

Since they weren't connected to a solid base, I concluded that those big arms were strictly for sexual display purposes, like peacocks' tails.

Beefy-armed men with weak torsos almost inevitably mess up their backs and wind up on couches - watching sports, drinking beer, eating chips, and turning to flab.

Sometimes - often even - they manage to succesfully mate and produce offspring before that happens.

Meanwhile, the deterioration continues - as they have heart attacks, get triple bypasses, and spend the remainder of their days taking Statins, drinking Miller Lite, barbecuing, and riding around on lawn tractors obessively mowing their lawns.

This describes the life arc of a number of men on my street."

________________________

I've started a three-day fast today. No solid food, no sugar, no significant caloric intake ( no juice, sugared beverages, artificialy sweetened beverages, alcoholic beverages - just herbal teas ans water. But I have made one concession - I am drinking coffee this morning - black ).

It's a little R&R time for my liver and my pancreas.

Fasting is the queen of therapies :

WHAT IS A FASTING MEDITATION PEACE WALK?

A walk of several days (three or more) in which people walk in a meditative way while fasting

WHAT ARE THE HEALTH BENEFITS OF FASTING?
Fasting is the queen of all therapies. It is astonishing how much your health may improve, provided you're doing the thing rightly. Combining fasting with walking e.g. stimulates bloodcirculation, repairs bloodvessel walls, removes blood risk factors, optimizes both immune functions and detoxification, improves the hormonal system, sharpens the senses, cures a lot of disorders, through which total regeneration is achieved. It makes you fit, vital and beautiful. "

Here's one student paper, very well written, which presents the case for the health benefits of fasting : Detoxification is the foremost argument presented by advocates of fasting. "Detoxification is a normal body process of eliminating or neutralizing toxins through the colon, liver, kidneys, lungs, lymph glands, and skin.....the most scientifically proven advantage to fasting is the feeling of rejuvenation and extended life expectancy. Part of this phenomenon is caused by a number of the benefits mentioned above. A slower metabolic rate, more efficient protein production, an improved immune system, and the increased production of hormones contributes to this long-term benefit of fasting. In addition to the Human Growth Hormone that is released more frequently during a fast, an anti-aging hormone is also produced more efficiently."

I can attest to the rejuvenating power of fasting. It does seem to have powerful health-giving benefits.
posted by troutfishing at 8:41 AM on July 19, 2004

> "Why don't you lose some fucking weight?"

For that matter, why do you assume they're not losing weight? It takes a lot of time to put weight on. It generally takes even longer to take it off. Assume a person is 150lbs over weight (let's say 300lbs total). If the goal weight were 150lbs and the person could lose 2lbs/week (a really good average), it would still take 75 weeks to hit the goal weight.

So, for a good part of a year and a half, the person in question would have to put up with the knee jerk judgement of people like you.

And for the others, all of whom, one would imagine, have tried unsuccessfully to lose weight, I'm sure your stares--and those of every other judgemental ass hat--provide no motivation at all to take a second (or third, or sixth, or tenth) stab at getting healthy.
posted by wheat at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2004

the body adjusts its metabolism for sucrose, but not for fructose

this is wildly off the mark. the body handles both glucose and fructose (sugar is 50% fructose and 50% glucose). there is some indication that high levels of fructose are worse for you than high levels of glucose, but it's not a huge effect and it's certainly not that fructose "cannot" be handled correctly.

cannot maintain a strenuous regimen of exercise

can you give any evidence for this?

Height and weight tables were established many years ago by the insurance company Metropolitan Life.

click on "Fig 1" here and see for yourself - the y axis shows how likely you are to drop dead (if you're aged 40-50, relative to others in the same age group). there's a clear region for BMI 20-25 with minimal risk. it's there, black and white. what more do you want?
posted by andrew cooke at 8:49 AM on July 19, 2004

One thing though - if civilization were to collapse and supermarkets to vanish overnight, obese people would have the extra body fat to get them through to the point where they could learn to grow their won food.

As for my lean self, I'd be long dead : even if I had turned to cannibalism, my cannibal diet of former fast food addicts would have quickly killed me as the toxins in their bodies accumulated in mine and caused massive liver damage.

andrew cooke - that's a good link.
posted by troutfishing at 8:53 AM on July 19, 2004

People outside the US have this view of us as disgustingly, morbidly obese

Aout 15 years ago I bought a BritRail pass, flew to London, and lolled around Great Britain. Poking around a stationery store in Scotland, I browsed some comedy mags and saw that every cartoon featuring an American showed them as a chubby person in a jogging suit.

Pretty funny!
posted by Ayn Marx at 9:11 AM on July 19, 2004

Oh yeah trout, because not eating is surely just as healthy as eating too much.

Really this isn't as hard as everyone wants to make it. Bodies come in different sizes, and people who tend to be plump even when they eat in moderation should be left the fuck alone. People who are *so* bothered by the obesity of others would do better to work to undo the structural encouragements towards obseity rather than expending themselves in feeling superior.

Does anyone really disagree that making healthy food more readily available while encouraging moderation would vastly reduce the incidence of dangerous obesity? When I was driving through France I was delightfully surprised to find that at the autoroute rest stops the food selections focused on freshly made sandwiches, salads and fruits as opposed to the McDo's here. Maybe we should work to encourage changes such as that instead of just sneering, huh? You think?
posted by dame at 9:12 AM on July 19, 2004

WolfDaddy -- I've taken off about 1/2 of the 40 pounds I've added since moving to Texas and am working on the other 20. For me, Tex Mex was (is and will always be) a key problem. But you're right, there are huge portions. A tip I got from a nutritionist is to tell the server to bring your doggy bag with the food and immediately put half (or more) in the container.

Callmejay -- I have empathy for the poor and obese. It costs much more to fill ones cart with healthy food vs. the bad food but that doesn't mean it is impossible. And it doesn't take a huge time commitment to get healthier -- people can find 10 minutes for a walk and hopefully more. One doesn't have to spend hours at the gym. A gym membership isn't necessary.

When I was in Mexico recently I noticed junk food ads on TV and in print would have little messages like 'eat well' or 'eat fruits and vegetables' on them. It wasn't huge, but it might help remind the consumer to eat more than refrescos y papas fritas. Unlike US-style "this will kill you" message on cigarettes, the Mexico approach seems to be a concession to the huge junk food lobby. It isn't an answer, but it wouldn't hurt.
posted by birdherder at 9:12 AM on July 19, 2004

So why is it any of your business if someone is overweight?

For the last 6 reasons listed here.
posted by shoos at 9:14 AM on July 19, 2004

Why do people get so vitriolic on this topic? It's like everything is a personal attack.

Body Mass Index is, of course, a coarse measure which doesn't work for everyone--I think most people agree that, say, Red Sox star Nomar Garciaparra and tennis diva Venus Williams are not "overweight", even though their weight-to-height ratio would put them in that category.

However, any individual person can assess whether he or she has a high weight for his/her height because of muscle or fat. It's not actually that difficult.

Being overfat (or underfit), however, is neither a moral failing nor (in the vast majority of cases) a "disease" per se.

Overfat may result from illnesses or disorders (either physical, such as Cushing's Syndrome, or mental, such as compulsive eating), and it does lead to a dramatically increased predisposition for many physical illnesses, disorders, and strains, but it is not a "disease" in itself.

Neither is it a moral failing. Some people may consciously choose the pleasures of eating whatever they want, whenever they want, over the pleasures of feeling fit and energetic. Hey, it's their right, just as it's other people's right to choose the pleasure of smoking over the pleasure of unimpaired breathing, and other people still's right to choose the pleasure of downhill skiing over the pleasure of unbroken limbs ;) .

Other people don't have access to good information about health and fitness. And, unfortunately, in the US, the issue seems to be polarized--nutrition and fitness choices are presented as "either you eat only steamed vegetables, like Madonna, or you order the Special MegaSize French Fry and Gallon Soda Deal at your local fast-food window".

And, re Postroad's assertion that "If you think you're overweight, you probably are"--NONSENSE! Almost half of all women surveyed who were within a healthy weight range perceived themselves as overweight, and more than a quarter of healthy-weight men perceived themselves as overweight.

If we had a more realistic view of fitness and health, people wouldn't try Draconian diets (which almost always fail), and would instead focus on sustainable changes in nutrition and exercise patterns.

And, since nobody else seems to have linked to it in these comments, The Onion does have one of the more hilarious takes on this in recent years.
posted by Sidhedevil at 9:17 AM on July 19, 2004

I can't get over the fact that his daughter, who is 300 lbs, just had triplets 2 years ago. How large must she have become carrying 3 babies, and how fraught with peril was that pregnancy and delivery?
posted by GaelFC at 9:20 AM on July 19, 2004

I just tell myself every time that one of these threads come up, that it's a fucking good thing I don't know any of you in person--because, clearly, my body would revolt you and you wouldn't bother getting to know who I am because my fatness is just SO FUCKING GROSS that I'm not worth knowing. Or you'd lecture me about eating less and exercising more (and no, I'm not going to go into detail about my food and exercise habits--I don't need to prove myself to be a "good" fat person to ANYONE).

Yeah, this pisses me off. Every fucking day, this pisses me off.
posted by eilatan at 9:28 AM on July 19, 2004

I recently spent 2 years in the US, in the Bay Area, and gained like 30 pounds. Mostly, eating right in the northern CA is very, very expensive. Fresh vegetables are luxury items. Junk food is very, very cheap. You can't walk anywhere. Do the math. Thankfully, I moved back to Chile and lost most of the extra wieght.
posted by signal at 9:35 AM on July 19, 2004

" I'm sure that part of the reason the South is more obese than the rest of the country"

My experience in the south (I was in the restaurant business for several years) is that a lot of southerners allow their anti-intellectualism and anti-elitism to get in the way of common sense. Oh how they laugh at vegetarians and tofu and sushi. Gotta have that meat, boy. I glady added more gravy, butter, whipped cream, chocolate sauce - whatever the fat little piggies wanted while making their snide little comments about healthy food. Keep on eating, you ignorant redneck fucks .
posted by 2sheets at 9:49 AM on July 19, 2004

I have been trying to puzzle out why we as a society make victims of the obese. One could say its due to a noncompliance to societal norms with regards to image, also perhaps that obesity tends to bring with it other culturally undesirable traits. For "the fire you left me" and others, what pushes your buttons so much?
posted by Ogre Lawless at 9:52 AM on July 19, 2004

BinGregory - while the South doesn't contain the only fat cities in America, they do have more than the rest of the country.
posted by agregoli at 9:55 AM on July 19, 2004

What eilatan said.

shoos, you know what else costs employers money? Smoking. Gingivitis. Cancer. Drug and alcohol addiction. Tuition reimbursement. Mental health services. Unemployment payouts. Cataracts.

Care to be the first person to march up to, say, the parent of an adopted child and say "Stop wanting children so badly so I don't have to pay for it indirectly?"

Tell me you've never done anything that cost your employer time or money, and maybe I'll stop laughing at the notion that my physical appearance is any of your business.
posted by gnomeloaf at 9:57 AM on July 19, 2004

Ogre Lawless: it's always fun to victimize the weak and infirm, it's just that it's not currently considered proper to do so with cripples, mentaly and physically retarded people, etc., whereas fat people are fair game, as they are seen as bringing it on themselves.
posted by signal at 9:58 AM on July 19, 2004

Keep on eating, you ignorant redneck fucks

Jebus, 2sheets. Got some pent up anger?
posted by trharlan at 9:58 AM on July 19, 2004

I noticed that folk in Edmonton, Alberta, were substantially larger than folk in Vancouver, BC...
posted by five fresh fish at 10:15 AM on July 19, 2004

For "the fire you left me" and others, what pushes your buttons so much?

I posted earler saying that we should be more sympathetic, so I'm not condoning this attitude, even though it's very hard for me to suppress it in the moment:

Obese people, when out and about, are hard to maneuver around. They invariably walk slower than I do and are often difficult to get around because they're large and are still moving. When I'm at the grocery store, I want to get in and out-- I don't want to manuever around a fat couple who are blocking the cereal aisle. When I board a trolley, I want to sit and read and I get pissed off if a fat person is taking two seats because that's a seat that someone else should have. If the trolley's crowded and there's a fat person, I think that I would be a little less pressed against my fellow passengers if the fat person hadn't been so inconsiderate as to take up two people's space.

As I said earler, it's not an attitude that helps me or anyone else and I vow to work harder to suppress it-- the temporary inconvenience is nothing compared to what the obese person is going though. But no matter how trivial the inconveniences caused by obese people are, they're very real to a frustrated person who just wants to get somewhere.
posted by Mayor Curley at 10:17 AM on July 19, 2004

BinGregory - while the South doesn't contain the only fat cities in America, they do have more than the rest of the country

I think it was Men's Health that recently came out with a study of cities, resulting in Houston at no. 2 and Dallas at no. 3 for "most overweight". This led to a challenge by both mayors to see which city could fall further down the list by next year's survey.

Dallas Mayor Laura Miller (who is quite fit and ran the White Rock Marathon last year) has begun her "lighten up, big D" campaign, something I thought was pretty cool until...

The DMN did a story on it showing her working out with a group of people, including Ronald McDonald.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:19 AM on July 19, 2004

I always read these conversations about weight on Metafilter, because I love knowing what it is that you all are saying about me.

I'm female, 5' 7" tall and weigh about 260 lbs. I wear a size 22 jeans and a DDD bra. By virtually any measure that our society has, I'm fat.

However, I also eat between 1500 and 2100 calories a day. (I know that for a fact because I obsessively keep a notebook where I record every bit of food I eat). I pay the extra money to buy and eat organic foods, and I try to eat a well-balanced diet - some grains, some proteins, some meat, some veggies, etc. I'm very active and not only do I walk for exercise, but I also do more "hobby" type activities including trail hiking and canoeing.

In other words, I'm not exactly your stereotypical fat girl, but you wouldn't know that to look at me. Yet you think you know all about me when you look at me.

If we're on a road trip to go hiking in Vermont and we stop at a McDonalds to use the bathroom, you think you know everything about me when I walk out the door.

If we stop at Dairy Queen with friends, and you drive by and see me standing there in line, you think you know everything about me even before you've seen me order my 100 calorie sugar-free Dilly Bar.

If I'm in the supermarket, and I put ice cream in my shopping cart to serve at a friend's birthday party, you think you know everything about me as you wheel your cart on past.

But you don't know anything about me at all.

Yes, its very true that a lot of the obesity in America is caused by bad eating habits, the high cost of fresh foods, and (in many cases) the sheer absence of choices if you live in a poor or rural area (I was in a supermarket in rural Maine this weekend that would make your hair stand on end). But, increasingly, I also think that undiscussed cause of much of the obesity in America has to do with medications and prescription drug side effects. I know that's the case for me, and I'm betting its the case for many other men and women who struggle and struggle and struggle to lose weight and don't ever understand why they can't.

Which is not to say, of course, that the fat on every fat man and woman in America is caused by their drugs. Because I know how expensive it can be to eat healthy. I know how available fast food/bad-for-you food is. I know all about the messages that the media sends out. However, I also know lots of fat people. They're smart people and rich people and poor people. They're men and women and they're all ages, and they're overweight for many different reasons.

Don't think you know all our stories by looking at us. 'cause you don't.
posted by anastasiav at 10:20 AM on July 19, 2004

Mayor Curley, everything you said could be easily said of "old people". Old people walk slowly and get in my way when I want to go somewhere quickly. When I get on the subway, I get angry when old people take up an extra seat with their walkers. Etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes, people get fat. Sometimes, people get old.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:33 AM on July 19, 2004

As for the South: Down there gravy is considered a beveridge.

Comfort foods: They can be creamy, cheesy, heavy or hearty, but they are always filling—and fulfilling. From meatloaf to macaroni and cheese, from chicken soup to apple cobbler, consumers are flocking to these nostalgic favorites, tallying up sales for specialty food retailers in prepared meal replacements as well as in packaged ingredients for assembling at-home comforting dishes.

Add to that these tumultuous times with a shaky economy and threats of war and terrorism looming, and you have a nation seeking solace in the familiar foods of what we remember as a simpler time.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:34 AM on July 19, 2004

The DMN did a story on it showing her working out with a group of people, including Ronald McDonald.

The fitness guru who trimmed Oprah Winfrey and is riding his bicycle across the country to promote health and wellness is sticking up for his sponsor, McDonald's.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:41 AM on July 19, 2004

I always read these conversations about weight on Metafilter, because I love knowing what it is that you all are saying about me.

I think this answers the questions about why the debates about obesity on MeFi are so contentious and personal. People have tried to categorize some of their comments about the Other on this site as uncharitable stereotyping, and have stated that they'll try to be more compassionate as a result of the FPP. Still people still get offended, and take such comments personally, even when we are communicating impersonally on Matt's community blog.

Anastasiav, just as your story is not the same as my sister's, whose obesity is the result of an psychologically driven eating disorder, your story is not the same as that of the Baskins. The poster's stated goal here was to show us all a more human side to the story, so that, regardless of its causes (self-inflicted or the result of a glandular condition, or something else), perhaps we can all feel a bit more compassion for people afflicted by this condition.

Like every post on MeFi, some people accept the poster's point, if there is one, and as many others veer around it: both responses are valid. For my own part, my own feelings about this topic are too tightly wrapped up in my anger with my sister, who just won't seek help and therapy despite numerous entreaties on the parts of family members, and who at the relatively young age of 40, will likely be dead in 10 years (she already has juvenile diabetes, heart and lung issues, joint problems). It pains me that someone who is such a great and decent human being can do such damage to herself. This, I know, is an entirely different story from yours, and I think we can all learn a little bit from each other in this regard.
posted by psmealey at 10:41 AM on July 19, 2004

You can be as fat as you want (and i know tons of healthy fat people), but if you can't walk more than a few steps without being exhausted, or have to rely on a wheelchair because you can't carry your own weight, you should realize it's not a good thing. Unless it's from a medical condition, of course, and not just that your weight has become a medical condition.

We're all self-destructive in one way or another, and it sucks that there's so much prejudice against the obese. Join the club--and at least people aren't trying to write discrimination against you into the Constitution.

Does anyone really disagree that making healthy food more readily available while encouraging moderation would vastly reduce the incidence of dangerous obesity? When I was driving through France I was delightfully surprised to find that at the autoroute rest stops the food selections focused on freshly made sandwiches, salads and fruits as opposed to the McDo's here. Maybe we should work to encourage changes such as that instead of just sneering, huh? You think?
Amen! and cheaper, too. But that won't ever happen, and cars would have to disappear too. People just walking more in their neighborhoods would make a gigantic difference in the obesity rates--in most of the country, even kids don't ever walk anywhere.
posted by amberglow at 10:42 AM on July 19, 2004

I overeat at restaurants because 98 percent of the people that I have to eat out with are so mind-numbingly, stupifyingly boring, that I have to keep stuffing food in my mouth to keep myself from screaming. Fortunately, a strenuous exercise regimen keeps me trim and svelte. But if Americans made an effort to be less boring, I wouldn't have to exercise so much, and I could enjoy the many TV programs people talk about at work the next day.
posted by Faze at 10:43 AM on July 19, 2004

What anastasia said. And eilatan.

I dread the reappearance of this topic on MeFi because it forces me to be confronted with the fact that some of you - people I normally enjoy reading and "hanging out" here with - are, in fact, loathsome judgmental little turds. SKINNY loathsome judgemental little turds, at that. And then, I'm forced to try and remind myself for the next several days or weeks that you are not, in fact, pond scum not worth the time of day or the three seconds it takes to read your hateful, sneering little opinions...

Try this. Substitute the words "obese" and "fat person" in the rhetoric above with "nigger," "kike," "fag" or "my bitch" and try it out the next time your making dinner or bar conversation if you'd like to get a sense of how repulsive your words are to those of us you so casually consign to the scrapheaps of your perfect little worldview.
posted by JollyWanker at 10:45 AM on July 19, 2004

southerners allow their anti-intellectualism and anti-elitism to get in the way of common sense. Oh how they laugh at vegetarians and tofu and sushi. Gotta have that meat, boy.

Dallas, Tx. - sushi
posted by thomcatspike at 10:46 AM on July 19, 2004

birdherder: good advice. Tex-Mex is yummy, and that's what gave me my extra 20. Mexican food in California is an entirely different kind of food ... altogether.

Mexican food in California is an entirely different kind of food.

As to the people who are angry about society's attitude toward your body shape/weight ... THAT's probably doing as much to put you into an early grave as anything else. I used to have high blood pressure over this--I'm 6'2 and weigh 220-240, all of the body fat is in my torso--and when I moved to California, I thought I'd never be one of the 'beautiful people'. When I saw how much they obsessed over changing (or maintaining) the way they looked ... their unhealthy attitudes toward diet, cosmetic surgery, exercise, social circles, I realized that they were far, FAR more messed up than they perceived me as being. Once the blinkers came off, my BP dropped dramtically. True story.
posted by WolfDaddy at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2004

I call bullshit on bad food being cheaper and more convenient.

For the cost of a meal at a McJoint, you can get a really, really good salad at Quizno's, or a nice wrap/sandwich at Camille's, or a delightful freshly made sandwich at Subway.

For eating at home, there's all manner of cheap and easy-to-prepare dishes that are light on meat and other fatty items.

All you have to do is pay attention to what you're buying.

And one thing really stands out to me from the story -- the author followed Deke to the grocery store, and watched as he selected junk foods and his wife picked up chocolate bars. See, that's where you gotta start -- at the store. General rule to follow is avoid the middle of the store, and shop the periphery, where the fresh and raw stuff is. Another general rule: more packaging usually equals more junk.

Don't know how to prepare healthy foods using a wide variety of ingredients? Buy a fucking book. $10 at B&N or Amazon will get you a nice, easy-to-understand cookbook that anyone can follow.

And don't give me the "advertising made me do it" line either. We're all adults. We're all more market savvy than we credit. Grow the fuck up.

Live in rural America and don't have a nice variety of fresh stuff at your local ma and pa grocery? Start a damned garden. Now that's cheap. And fresh. (For a total cost of about $20.00 I've had bushels of spinach that's still producing, several bunches of broccoli, and carrots, celery, beans, and tomatos).

There are no excuses for eating bad in America.
posted by yesster at 10:51 AM on July 19, 2004

Obese people, when out and about, are hard to maneuver around.

Pregnant people, when out and about, are hard to maneuver around.

People with kids in strollers, when out and about, are hard to maneuver around.

People in wheelchairs, when out and about, are hard to maneuver around.
posted by JoanArkham at 10:51 AM on July 19, 2004

Another mote on the plot about health, fitness and fatness:
Cheryl Haworth, 2000 olympic Bronze medalist in weightlifting is "obese" at a BMI of 46.7 (profile/stats source and calculator). Yet, she has also been able to lift 110 lbs with ease (article description), and appears to be in the 2004 women's olympic team as well (article narrative).

She is also able to "run the 40-yard dash in 5.5 seconds, has a 30-inch vertical leap and can do the splits" (bio descriptive).

In all my reading about this fine young woman, I haven't seen one journalist or medical professional criticize her for her weight or BMI.
posted by kalessin at 10:56 AM on July 19, 2004

Massachusetts highway rest stops offer salads and wraps by Fresh City. They're delicious.

Yesster, how would people living in, say, the Cabrini Green housing projects deal with the high price and poor selection of fresh vegetables in every single grocery store that they can reach by public transportation?

Though it's true that many low-income people make poor nutritional choices, there is also a tremendous amount of data that show that affordable, nutritious food--especially fresh fruits and vegetables--are not easily accessible in low-income urban neighborhoods.
posted by Sidhedevil at 10:58 AM on July 19, 2004

Hard when the TV is always telling you about some great new fried chicken deal down the street or a cheeseburger to rival the Double Whopper

Turn off the freakin TV! How hard can it be to see that TV screws people. It manipulates even the smartest person.
posted by stbalbach at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2004

Sidhedevil --- well, then there might be an entrepreneurial opportunity there. Take the farmers' market to the projects. Open a greenhouse there, and teach folks how to grow a garden (assuming, of course, that the housing regulations permit it, which they probably don't, which is completely asinine).
posted by yesster at 11:20 AM on July 19, 2004

Yesster, sometimes cooking up fresh food is harder than plopping something in the microwave, especially when both parents are working, so yeah--harder.

Learning to cook & planting a garder require effort. Worthwhile effort, sure, but effort nonetheless. More effort than stopping at McDo's on the way home from work & daycare, so yeah--harder.

The lack of time and encouragement to do these things is real. And if you want large groups of people to change their behavior, you should make it easier to do what you want them to do. If you think that's important.
posted by dame at 11:21 AM on July 19, 2004

I did a bit more reading and researching on Cheryl Anne Haworth. For your reference, her records (bottom of the page):

Snatch: 128.0 kg (~282 lbs) 5/18/03
Clean & Jerk: 160.0kg (~352 lbs) 12/9/01
Total: 285.0kg (628 lbs) 12/9/01

(conversion from kg to lbs provided by Google)
posted by kalessin at 11:24 AM on July 19, 2004

Try this. Substitute the words "obese" and "fat person" in the rhetoric above with "nigger," "kike," "fag" or "my bitch"...

Jesus goddamn fuck! Do you honestly think that comparison is even remotely valid?
posted by kickingtheground at 11:26 AM on July 19, 2004

I can attest to the rejuvenating power of fasting. It does seem to have powerful health-giving benefits.

You just reminded that I'll have to fast again soon. I tried it some time ago, the extra energy I got out of it during the fast was just frightening.

./A
posted by NewBornHippy at 11:29 AM on July 19, 2004

Jesus goddamn fuck! Do you honestly think that comparison is even remotely valid?

I happen to.
posted by kalessin at 11:29 AM on July 19, 2004

Ah, but kalessin, you can't compare fat with anything else because as anyone who believes the comparison is invalid will point out, you can control fat! You don't choose to be black, or female, or anything else! And because you choose to be fat, it's perfectly acceptable for people to discriminate against you. Because, you know, those fat people take up two seats or walk really slowly. Those darn fat people! Won't they just lose some weight already? Gosh! They're so fat! And so awful! Clearly, everyone must stop being fat immediately.

(yes, this was sarcastic.)
posted by hijinx at 11:40 AM on July 19, 2004

And I've gotta concur with kalessin.

It's easier for me to be queer than it is for me to be fat. And yet, I continue being fat because that's what I am and always will be. No matter how few calories I eat or how many hours a day I exercise, I will be fat.

I'm really, really sorry that bothers some of you to the extent that it does. But you can't make me--or others like me--disappear. And the fact that you'd like me to disappear really pisses me off.
posted by eilatan at 11:43 AM on July 19, 2004

Substitute the words "obese" and "fat person" in the rhetoric above with "nigger," "kike," "fag" or "my bitch"

Yes. Substituting any given term for highly offensive term will result in an offensive statement. If I wrote: "Those pedophiles disgust me," and you asked me to substitute "pedophiles" with "niggers," then, obviously, the recast statement would be offensive. That doesn't tell me anything about the offensiveness of the original term. (Whether it be "pedophile" or "obese").

With that said, I've never heard the claim made that "obese" is offensive, rather than descriptive -- let alone as offensive as the words you would like me to equate it with.
posted by pardonyou? at 11:48 AM on July 19, 2004

Do you think that some people hate fat people because there's an unconscious primal instinct that tells them that person will require more resources of the tribe, and can't pull their weight/slow them down?

I'm not trying to be ridiculous, just grasping at why fat people anger some skinny people so.
posted by agregoli at 11:54 AM on July 19, 2004

I think we can all learn a little bit from each other in this regard.

Amen to that, psmealey. I too have a sister who is somewhere over 350 pounds. I see the way people look at her when we are out together and it pisses me off. They don't know the thoughtful, kind, and funny person that I grew up with.

The last time she came to visit, the 1.5 block walk from the bus stop to my apartment left her wheezing and gasping for breath. She lives 800 miles away, and she lives alone, and if she doesn't return a call within a day or two, or reply to an email I've sent, I have these nightmarish visions that she's fallen and is trapped somewhere, or that she's in a diabetic coma, and that no one will find her until it's too late. Over the years our family has tried various methods to encourage her to be healthier. At a certain point, however, I came to understand that telling her she needs to lose weight isn't going to make her feel any better about herself- I know from my own experience that when I've gained a few pounds, or ten, I'm painfully aware of it, and it doesn't help to have someone else point it out. Clearly, I'm concerned about her health, and I struggle with how, or even whether, to communicate this to her, as the last thing I want to tell her is "you're not good enough."

We humans all have shortcomings. You can get on a bus and see a whole array of anonymous humanity- and the things that others might judge them harshly for are often not immediately obvious- you can't tell if someone is a complete deadbeat on child-support payments, or has repeated convictions for DUI, for example. But those who see overweight as a moral shortcoming often don't stop to think that not everyone else's struggles are as obvious to complete strangers.
posted by ambrosia at 11:54 AM on July 19, 2004

No matter how many hours a day I exercise, I will be fat.

I'm afraid your gluttony has confused you.
posted by the fire you left me at 11:58 AM on July 19, 2004

Yesster, whether or not someone eventually is able to "bring a farmer's market to the projects", the fact is that there is no farmer's market there now.

And "planting a garden" is great for three months of the year, but if you live in, say, Climate Zone 1 of North America, what do you do for fresh vegetables the other nine months of the year?

I eat amazingly well. I eat organic vegetables, free-range meats and poultry, wild-caught fish, whole-grain artisanal bread, etc. I can afford to do this because I am rich and live in a city.

When I was a kid living in the rural, economically depressed Northeastern US, though, most of my classmates ate canned vegetables, government cheese, processed meats, and white bread. Not good, not good for you, but available and affordable.

And when I was working in low-income urban neighborhoods, most people seemed to eat similar foods. Again, not good, not good for you, but available and affordable.

(Those of you who ate school lunches through the Federal Hot Lunch Program may recall the kind of menu that was usually served--high in sodium, processed carbohydrates, canned and overcooked vegetables and fruits, and high-nitrite processed meats. I went to school with lots of kids whose main meal that was for the day, too.)
posted by Sidhedevil at 12:00 PM on July 19, 2004

Thanks to JollyWanker and anastasiav for putting a familiar MeFi face on this issue. We've all got our own personal demons to face and it certainly doesn't help to hear nothing but negativity and recriminations from the people around you.

It also doesn't help that our government is subsidizing corn syrup or that we built a food pyramid in the 50s on the advice of the food industry.
posted by rks404 at 12:03 PM on July 19, 2004

Take the farmers' market to the projects. Open a greenhouse there, and teach folks how to grow a garden (assuming, of course, that the housing regulations permit it, which they probably don't, which is completely asinine).

FWIW, in Tulsa several years back (maybe 2000 or so), the local Green Party and Mayor Susan Savage teamed up to plant a community garden in one of the poorer neighborhoods in the area. This was notable not only b/c the garden was completely organic, fully functional, and available only to those that spent time working in it, I believe it was the first time that an elected official had worked with the Green Party in Oklahoma on anything.

I've got no idea if the garden still exists or is now an incidental compost heap, but there are people out there doing things on a community level. I'm sure it's far from what needs to be done overall, but it does happen sometimes.
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:08 PM on July 19, 2004

I'm afraid your gluttony has confused you.

I'm afraid your zealotry has turned you into an ass. Go find your heart, then come back.
posted by kalessin at 12:12 PM on July 19, 2004

the fire you left me: I'm afraid your gluttony has confused you. (in response to eilatan)

That was totally uncalled for.
posted by hijinx at 12:14 PM on July 19, 2004

With that said, I've never heard the claim made that "obese" is offensive, rather than descriptive -- let alone as offensive as the words you would like me to equate it with.

Nouns and adjectives are limited in their offensiveness. It is often instead the attitude behind the nouns that can indicate offensiveness. The lack of caring, the objectification, the exploitativeness, the lack of empathy or respectful sympathy, the finger-pointing and the judgmental attitudes, those are what really get offensive, don't you think?
posted by kalessin at 12:15 PM on July 19, 2004

I'm afraid your complete and total lack of knowing anything about me other than the fact that I'm fat has confused you, the fire you left me.

However, now everyone knows that you are an asshole.
posted by eilatan at 12:21 PM on July 19, 2004

Thanks for the credit, psmealy. I most certainly DID NOT post this so I could fire up a bunch of fat-bashing surface-based judgement. I just spent almost a year in Australia, returning to my home in the South. I've been shocked and disgusted and judgemental at the level of obesity I've seen here, with semi-outsider eyes, the doughnuts in my office, fat coworkers, fat kids, etc.

But this article made me look below that surface to some real suffering that I wouldn't wish on anyone. All this knee-jerk judgement of the overweight makes me feel ashamed. Sure, I've got my own prejudices in this regard, and I'm guilty of being a prick like the rest of you. But if you have any sort of feelings at all and read that article, I don't see how you can be so caustic.

I managed to drop 30 lbs of fat myself once, and it was one of the hardest and most rewarding things I've ever done. I had the luxury of being able to afford a personal trainer AND live a block away from a gym I had a free membership to.

So yeah. I'm sorry if my post got people's feelings hurt, and I'm really sorry I gave some of you caustic fucks the justification to pick on someone not quite your own size.
posted by chinese_fashion at 12:28 PM on July 19, 2004

If I were magically confronted with the choice of trading what I define as my own idiosyncratic set of "problems" for being 100 pounds heavier........

The option would give me pause.
posted by troutfishing at 12:32 PM on July 19, 2004

How about we inject some facts in this, then?

Over the past twenty years the number of "obese" in the USA has doubled.

Any of you healthy fat people want to explain that? Are you going to claim that those must be healthy fat people, or will you admit that most of these people are probably quite unhealthy?

Over the past decade, the number of overweight children has nearly tripled.

Any of you healthy fat people care to defend that trend? Are you going to claim that it's okay for parents to chubby-up their kids, or are you going to tell us that it's all due to heftiness genes?

How about the 50% increase in diabetes this past decade? Most of it is due to obesity.

How about how only 1 in 4 Americans eats their vegetables on a daily basis? Could you healthy fat people happily state that the majority of obese people are eating their vegetables, or will you admit that those people choose to eat an unhealthy diet?

How about a 50% greater mortality rate, 4x the risk of arthritis, significantly increased cancer risks, 2x risk of gallbladder disease, and all sorts of pregnancy problems?

Are these facts somehow unfair to the obese? Are the statistics biased against the fat? Are the numbers discriminatory?

Let's get right to the rock-solid truth: for the greatest majority of people, being overweight and especially being obese is terribly, terribly unhealthy.

And it's costing us a fucking fortune in health care and lost productivity, not to mention the emotional damage done to their families and friends.

Any one of you fat MeFi members may be relatively healthy and fit... but you are not representative of the fat population.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:45 PM on July 19, 2004

At least for me, I don't have a problem with obese people.

I DO have a problem with any person who knowingly and willingly (and my tax dollars in the health system) becomes obese under their own will. I also have issues with smokers, and drunk drivers, and people who don't excercise but are skinny.

Do I look at the fat person walking by with contempt? No. Do I look at the fat person walking by with a big bag of chips and a bottle of pop with content? You're damn right I do. Skinny person with same items? Same result.

Do I look at the person who has given up on being healthy (which, more than weight loss, is a good goal) and said that they can't do it with contempt? No matter what they do, they'll never be skinny? Yes. Being healthy is a painful and difficult process for EVERYONE. You might have a harder time than I do, but that doesn't make it easy for me either.

I don't always go to the gym, or jump on a bike because I want to (most of the time I do, but 6am Monday morning sucks). I do it because the next day it's a lot easier to keep being healthy if I was the day before.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 12:59 PM on July 19, 2004

Everyone has the right to make their own choices about their own bodies! How exactly does it affect YOU personally if other poeple choose to- oh, wait. Sorry. I thought this was the abortion thread.
Fat people suck!
posted by Stauf at 1:00 PM on July 19, 2004

This seems at least partially relevant.. of course, statistics will be statistics. Take with a grain of salt.
posted by Raze2k at 1:02 PM on July 19, 2004

And it's costing us a fucking fortune in health care and lost productivity, not to mention the emotional damage done to their families and friends.

But so do a lot of things. PA just repealed their motorcycle helmet laws. I have to walk through a cloud of smoke to get into my office in the morning. Co-workers come in sick and spread the flu around because no one feels like they can take a day off.

Why the hate? I really, honestly, not-trolling want to know.
posted by JoanArkham at 1:05 PM on July 19, 2004

fff:Are these facts somehow unfair to the obese? Are the statistics biased against the fat? Are the numbers discriminatory?

You seem to want to blame the fat people, but I would read the very statistics you cite as pointing towards a societal problem. Are people really less responsible, on average, than they used to be? Really? They all "chose" to be less responsible this generation, just for the hell of it? People new to American-like cultures suddenly become fatter in one generation because they "choose" to be less responsible? Wouldn't it make more sense to say, well people are basically the same, so there must be some societal issue? There are so many to choose from: corn subsudies, fast food, suburban sprawl, the increase in portions served at restaurants, etc. The government and the corporate world actively -- VERY actively -- contribute to the weight gain in the US. Where is their fucking personal responsibility?

Apologies if you're merely arguing the fat =/= fit point, but my argument stands for others in this thread.
posted by callmejay at 1:06 PM on July 19, 2004

Not sure about you guys in the US, but here in Canada, our subsidized health care system provides electric "carts" for many obese people.

Now, quite apart from my feelings about these folks careening down the sidewalks and almost killing pedestrians, it makes me scratch my head as to why our government would make this sort of concession to these folks instead of, say, paying for a health club membership or something similar that might actually improve their health.

It seems like the health care system is "giving up" on some of these obese people rather than trying to help them regain some of their health.
posted by jmcnally at 1:13 PM on July 19, 2004

As an American living in Europe, I can tell you that I can pick Americans out of a crowd of tourists merely by their size.

Americans have a very distinctive and pronounced culture of snacking. While many cultures have some kind of "snack food", I have never seen it inflated to the level of importance that snacking has in the US. People literally walk around with something in their hands to snack on. And a huge industry exists to make sure that they have a big shiney bag of fresh, crispy, salty, extruded potato starch handy at every retail point of sale in the country. In Hungary a snack used to mean a can of sardines. (Not any more, though. Market Capitalism comes packaged with Cheetos.)

When I have visited the US I was also amazed at the size of the portions, especially of "convenience desserts" such as the humongous brownies you could buy at virtually every cash register (carrot cake for those who wanted to seem health conscious.)

Sometimes I have taken American visitors to some of Europe's less developed backwater areas - Moldavia, eastern Hungary, eastern Slovakia - and the main negative impression most of them relate to me is their shock at the lack of familiar potato chips, pretzels, and quality chocolate available at the local village shop. I remember one American radio reporter I translated for who carried a backpack full of chips and pretzels with him through these snack food nether regions.

East Europeans, if left to their own accord, prefer a fatty, starchy diet, yet one doesn't see the levels of mass obesity that one sees in, say, Ohio. My guess is that after chugging down a lunch of fatty stew with dumplings you are simply not hungry anymore, and don't feel the urge to snack. Dinner is usually something simple - bread and cold cuts or cheese (the German influence of an evening meal called "abendbrot" - 'evening bread') and maybe soup, but the big meal is lunch.

The younger generation, however, is getting fatter, at least in Hungary. Snack items like potato chips have been introduced, McDonalds is everywhere, and a Pepsi is always within line of sight.

Oh yeah... it wasn't easy, but I dropped fifty pounds during the first half of this year. I figured If I didn't take control of my weight, my weight would take control of me. I still eat what I want, it's just that I have convinced myself that I don't want as much, I don't want potato chips, I don't have to have pizza three times a week, and I don't ever need to drink a canned cola ever again. And I bicycle.
posted by zaelic at 1:16 PM on July 19, 2004

You seem to want to blame the fat people, but I would read the very statistics you cite as pointing towards a societal problem.

That's awesome. Using judo against facts "I see the facts barreling towards me and I simply use their own weight to redirect them to where they can't hurt."
posted by Mayor Curley at 1:21 PM on July 19, 2004

five fresh fish: Any one of you fat MeFi members may be relatively healthy and fit... but you are not representative of the fat population.

Nobody said we represented some mythical "fat population." We're just people, you little twat, who happen to be heavier - some of us significantly so - than some other people. Most of us don't choose to be heavier, most of us have struggled against being heavier, most of us have failed, time and again, and neither you nor anyone else is is any way qualified or justified in judging us.

So, you know what? I'm going to give in, sink to your level and respond for the last time in this God-forsaken thread: FUCK YOU AND THE SKINNY LITTLE PONY YOU RODE IN, YOU PATHETIC, HEARTLESS SACK OF SHIT. I can only hope you end up with a long, pain-filled life of diabetes, arthritis, heart disease and pregnancy issues, because unlike me, anastasia, eliatan and doubtless hundreds or thousands of other MeFites, with your attitude about others and their problems, you deserve to suffer.
posted by JollyWanker at 1:24 PM on July 19, 2004

I'd point my finger at the fast food/junk food industries, and at the government.

For crying out loud, many American schools now serve - literally - fast food for lunch.

US society is in deep, deep denial over this.

The saddest notes - to me - of an otherwise very funny movie, "Super-Size Me" were 1) the teenage girl interviewed in the movie, who was obese but without a clue of what to do about it - she was just sad and helplessly resigned about her life condition and 2) all the obese people watching the movie who were drinking sugared sodas and eating popcorn drenched with hydrogenated oils.

People really do not know how to eat better. The only way to address the obesity epidemic in America is through massive public education about nutrition and exercise, and by restricting the ability of the fast food industry to continue saturation-bombing the US public with ads for junk food that I'd hardly call food at all.

"Blaming the fat" is a divisive, red herring strategy of distraction which - like any other type of victim-blaming - obscures the primary agents who have helped to create the problem in the first place, principally the American food industry.

But, there's a reason that the health food industry in the US has been the fastest growing sector of the food industry for about 20 years running - many Americans are starting to realize, bit by bit, that junk food and fast food is mostly toxic crap.
posted by troutfishing at 1:29 PM on July 19, 2004

jmcnally: Is that true? If so, could you provide a link/proof?

I wouldn't be surprised if it is, though, because the number of those carts has exploded (in Toronto, at least) in the last few years. You even see young/not obese people on them now. The other day, I was in a Shopper's Drug Mart and I saw a young-ish (obese) mother with her (obese) daughter, who was probably under the age of 10, both riding along on their own carts.

I think they're fantastic devices for the elderly and the genuinely ill, but if you're on one because you're too fucking lazy to walk about your neighbourhood, that's just sad. And a waste of my tax dollars, if what jmcnally is saying is true.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:39 PM on July 19, 2004

That's awesome. Using judo against facts "I see the facts barreling towards me and I simply use their own weight to redirect them to where they can't hurt."

I think the facts justify my point. If you disagree, perhaps you could explain why. Specifically, why are people heavier now than they were a generation ago if it doesn't have to do with something our society is doing?
posted by callmejay at 1:39 PM on July 19, 2004

Come to think of it - I was watching "The Stepford Wives" a few days ago (and sharing a pitcher of beer, BTW) and - as the slim and robotic "Stepford" wives pranced around on screen - together with Nicole Kidmann who seemed to me to be a far more natural Stepford product than all the rest - the movie cinema aisles were filled with people who were anywhere from obese to morbidly obese (as the technical definitions go) shuffling back and forth to the concession stand, making round after round to buy fast food-type burgers, pizza, hydrogenated oil drenched popcorn......

It was awful, the contrast between the health-food eating, well exercised, sex-symbol Hollywood actresses on the screen and the women watching the movie who had become convinced they could never look so good (or slim, anyway) or even remotely close to that standard and who were shuffling around with their packages of crappy food and glumly eating it as (what I saw to be) a psychological coping mechanism that only made things worse.

It's easy to ridicule, but we all bear the weight of collective unhappiness - from any and all societal maladies.
posted by troutfishing at 1:41 PM on July 19, 2004

"...a recent study done by doctors from Harvard , and published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition...found a Type 2 diabetes/sugar link : that the increased consumption of refined carbohydrates (i.e., corn syrup) in the American diet, combined with decreased consumption of fiber, parallels the increase in Type II diabetes"
posted by troutfishing at 1:43 PM on July 19, 2004

Do I look at the person who has given up on being healthy (which, more than weight loss, is a good goal) and said that they can't do it with contempt? No matter what they do, they'll never be skinny? Yes. Being healthy is a painful and difficult process for EVERYONE. You might have a harder time than I do, but that doesn't make it easy for me either.

Just to clarify: I haven't given up on being healthy. I have, however, given up on the idea of conforming to a body shape and size that I am not designed to conform to. I have much better things to do with my life than castigate myself for having a bowl of ice cream maybe once a week or full-fat dairy products or, even, for eating salty crunchy food when I'm PMS-ing.

I suspect that y'all have much better things to do with your time than play Food Police on my fat ass, too. So why don't y'all go do them? Me, I'll be playing DDR. It's good exercise, you know.
posted by eilatan at 1:44 PM on July 19, 2004

Yesster, how would people living in, say, the Cabrini Green housing projects deal with the high price and poor selection of fresh vegetables in every single grocery store that they can reach by public transportation?

You mean that relatively new, YOOGE Dominick's on Division, the one a few blocks from Cabrini, has no produce? Damn.
posted by alou73 at 2:09 PM on July 19, 2004

Fat people (myself included) will make any excuse to blame someone else for their own problems. In high school there was an obese family who always blamed their problems on a genetic glandular condition. The daughter however would bring a full size grocery bag in for lunch filled with muliple sandwhiches, half a dozen bags of chips and pretzels, dessert cakes, sodas, the works. (salivary gland joke goes here)

If you're 5' 7'' ~300 pounds you had to eat enough food to get youself there. If you're saying you never strayed from your low cal diet, you're lying. Conservation of energy/mass requires it.

No matter how few calories I eat or how many hours a day I exercise, I will be fat.

There are physcial laws which govern the universe and you are not exempt.
posted by uftheory at 2:13 PM on July 19, 2004

Do you think that some people hate fat people because there's an unconscious primal instinct that tells them that person will require more resources of the tribe, and can't pull their weight/slow them down?

I'm not trying to be ridiculous, just grasping at why fat people anger some skinny people so.
posted by agregoli at 2:26 PM on July 19, 2004

It was awful, the contrast between the health-food eating, well exercised, sex-symbol Hollywood actresses on the screen and the women watching the movie who had become convinced they could never look so good (or slim, anyway) or even remotely close to that standard and who were shuffling around with their packages of crappy food and glumly eating it as (what I saw to be) a psychological coping mechanism that only made things worse.

and sharing a pitcher of beer, BTW
Dude, when can we start our act...mind readers? Seriously, your words read you can read minds. How do you know what people are actually thinking? The better the movie, the more I will eat while viewing it. One’s body language may read as an educated guess but they are not always true like when making assumptions. I notice you were drinking, was the alcohol giving that superior power one receives when the alcohol high kicks in? Making you notice the lowliness of your fellow movie patrons. Be careful pointing out what you don't truly know because you are making assumptions here. I notice those you describe don’t need their minds to be read – they tell the world out loud with their bantering loud talk after the movie. {you’re highly knowledgeable & pick up on things quickly; just be careful when assuming because it will ruin the credibility of your words ;) }YMMV
posted by thomcatspike at 2:27 PM on July 19, 2004

But don't assume that everyone agrees with the premise that being fat will kill you.

I sure don't.

How many obese 75-year-olds you seen around lately?

a lot of southerners allow their anti-intellectualism and anti-elitism to get in the way of common sense

Hear, hear. And on more issues than merely this one.

I dread the reappearance of this topic on MeFi because it forces me to be confronted with...blah, blah, blah, pointless personal attack.

Of course, in reality none of you who seem to be able to handle the honest and open exchange of opinion are forced to be confronted with anything. If you find these threads distasteful, by all means, skip them!
posted by rushmc at 2:32 PM on July 19, 2004

well exercised, sex-symbol Hollywood actresses on the screen
Not all, but the majority are under weight. The camera adds about 10 pounds to the person's Body parts, not the whole body itself. Notice how much room they have while sitting in the seat of a sports car.
posted by thomcatspike at 2:33 PM on July 19, 2004

i did read an article in the nytimes a while back about some doctors who had found that people's internal calorie counter was set to keep their bodies at a given weight. and that for some people that given weight was one that could be considered obese. the doctors believed it had something to do with primeval foodseeking in the time of plenty to survive the time of scarcity. we're always in the time of plenty.

joanarkham (hi, by the way, you may or may not remember me from roxy list): i also wonder where the hate on this issue comes from, too, and i always come back to fear. i had an anorexic girl friend in college (we hospitalized her twice one year) who simply could not be in the same room with another friend of mine who was obese to the point where it did cause him health problems. she hated him because he represented a terrifying lack of control to her. see, someone who wrecks a motorcycle while not wearing a helmet was exerting control (he was bucking the Man who told him to wear a helmet), so we may laugh at him, but we don't fear him or hate him. but for whatever reason, culturally, we have defined the obese as out-of-control. which makes people fear them or have no respect for them. which makes people vitriolic.

i see the same thing when i smoke around my coworkers. and it seems to be a fear/hate disrespect/hate that comes form believing i have no self-control. it starts as derision and quickly becomes something else. (but it makes me--who smokes fewer than three cigarettes in an average month--just want to chainsmoke around them)
posted by crush-onastick at 2:34 PM on July 19, 2004

I never understood that - how the heck can a camera add 10 pounds?
posted by agregoli at 2:36 PM on July 19, 2004

> I dread the reappearance of this topic on MeFi because it
> forces me to be confronted with the fact that some of you - people
> I normally enjoy reading and "hanging out" here with - are, in fact,
> loathsome judgmental little turds.

Speaking as a loathsome, judgemental little turd, I just want to note that being locked out of the blue from 8 to 5 by my company's netnanny does a wonderful job of preventing my making an obtrusive ass of myself in threads like this.
posted by jfuller at 2:42 PM on July 19, 2004

There's a little too much "blaming the food industry" for my liking. The fact is that food products that are non-nutritious, high in saturated fat, high in cholesterol, high in sodium, etc. can be, and are, enjoyed by thousands of healthy people in moderation. The argument about blaming the food industry is, for me, the same as blaming hollywood or music for acts of violence or other societal problems. Just like you could censor the shit out of everything, you could legislate an end to junk food, or legislate McDonald's out of business. But under the guise of trying to help those that aren't able to resist their wily charms, you've deprived those of us that enjoy junk food in moderation. That's not what a free society does. "You may no longer eat donuts. Although they never did you any harm, some people eat three a day, so our solution is to take them from everyone."
posted by pardonyou? at 2:45 PM on July 19, 2004

No matter how few calories I eat or how many hours a day I exercise, I will be fat.

As uftheory suggests, that is simply not a true statement. The following is unassailable:

If calories needed > calories consumed, weight will be lost (body has to get calories from stored weight).

If calories needed < calories consumed, weight will be gained (body stores excess calories)

I'll happily grant you that the left side of that equation is subject to a host of variables, including genetic and metabolic factors, and no two people are alike. However, it is always possible to consume fewer calories than your body uses in a day, even if you're completely sedentary. It might not be pleasant (and could even be harmful), but it is possible.
posted by pardonyou? at 3:00 PM on July 19, 2004