What if we voted on issues?

September 23, 2004 6:22 AM

What if we voted on issues? "They booed the results of their vote. They were upset that they had voted for the 'wrong guy'."
posted by GernBlandston (53 comments total)

<snark> Third graders elect Kerry in a landslide (4 to 1). Film at 11. </snark>
posted by zpousman at 6:29 AM on September 23, 2004

I just moved from Eden Prairie and can totally believe this story's basic premise. The point isn't whether the teacher was biased or not as noted in the comments over there. The point is the children's reaction. Unfortunately, I see the same process of denial and uncritical thinking in too many adults as well. Makes me wonder if I am living in a Philip Dick novel.
posted by infowar at 6:41 AM on September 23, 2004

We do vote on issues. Half of us just don't think like third graders.
posted by BirdD0g at 6:42 AM on September 23, 2004

Wow, this basically happened in my back yard. Minnesota in the past had a longstanding progressive attitude, but in the past several years there has been a large constituency swinging (pun intended) towards conservatism. I never understood where this metamorphosis originated, and how it has taken such a grasp of our historically liberal leanings. It makes me feel a little bit better that liberal ideals are still churning under the skin of some of the conservative rhetoric -- be it from 4th graders or not.

Should we chalk this up to youthful idealism on the part of the kids in that classroom, or to a broader history of progressive thought? I dunno. These are all broad generalizations, though, so take them for what they are worth.
posted by ScottUltra at 6:43 AM on September 23, 2004

I remember being the only kid who voted for Dukakis in my second grade class. I was the lone Donkey posted on the bulletin board, and in the end I denied that it was mine. I don't even remember why I voted the way I did. It's possible that I mistook the donkey for a horse and voted for the horse team.
posted by Alison at 6:53 AM on September 23, 2004

Cognitive dissonance in action.

Shows the power of money and media control (reference Church commision report).

It's not so difficult to convince people to support that which is not in their best interests.

You just gotta have the money and a Mighty Wurlitzer.

Children make a great petri dish as they are not hardened cynics.
posted by nofundy at 6:54 AM on September 23, 2004

The striking thing about this is it's even assuming that the crap on George Bush's web site is even going to happen if he's elected.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:05 AM on September 23, 2004

Maybe it's because the kids aren't astute enough to see through the lies and deception in Kerry's platform, and the brave straight talk from Bush is a little too much for them to handle at such a young age.

Yeah, ok. I'm kidding.

I was discomfited by the observation that the parents and children alike were "disturbed" to hear the results of the vote. It's pretty sick that we elect presidents based on a "Brand X is clearly better than Brand Y" basis. Why have elections at all, when clearly, no one is listening? To anything?
posted by psmealey at 7:19 AM on September 23, 2004

nofundy: You have to have a jukebox?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 7:22 AM on September 23, 2004

Americans. Blind.

Not looking around at the environment in which they live, work and raise their children.

'Nuff said.
posted by tomcosgrave at 7:31 AM on September 23, 2004

Flanders - for your reading enjoyment.
posted by soyjoy at 7:35 AM on September 23, 2004

There's a difference between what you really think, and what you think that you should be thinking. Or at least that's the way I was thinking when I was doing one of those "who am I politically" online poles. In anycase, kids are probably fairly impressionable, well, on the other hand maybe they do voice their minds. ...kind of like the rest of us.
posted by tomplus2 at 7:37 AM on September 23, 2004

Try being the only kid in your 5th-grade class that supported Mondale.

Of course, we don't know what "issues" the teacher picked. Nevertheless, it has been well-known that Americans favor a ban on assault weapons, "mostly" legal abortion, programs to increase access to health insurance, and full funding of social security. This isn't remotely controversial in most of the country (minus a few libertarians and Grover-Norquist-type conservatives).

I suspect that had this survey been taken with adults, the results would also have tilted towards Kerry. They would likely not have been as lopsided, because some adults would figure out which candidate represented Bush, which candidate represented Kerry, and vote their preexisting candidate preferences, anyway.

Some have argued that voters simply decide to vote on "character" (or "personality") rather than "issues." This isn't too surprising, as many Americans are concerned about who represents their country, and how he appears, rather than whether that candidate feels the same way the voter does about funding for education.

I used to get really indignant about the supposed "shallowness" of voters, but now I realize that it's just a part of the political landscape that any aspiring politicians needs to take into account.
posted by deanc at 7:42 AM on September 23, 2004

We do vote on issues. Half of us just don't think like third graders.

Yeah, half of you can only aspire to reach that level of thinking.
posted by substrate at 7:47 AM on September 23, 2004

even assuming that the crap on George Bush's web site is even going to happen if he's elected.

Space Coyote, even ignoring that, this is a great exercise, and it's one you can't really duplicate among adults.

Everyone thinks they judge only by the issues (even if the issue is whether, oh, let's say, a candidate can speak a foreign language or has ever owned a major league team), but as this sort of shows, very few of us actually do.

My brother lives in Eden Prairie, and we've talked about that closed-mindedness both there on the right and here in NYC on the left. It drives us both nuts.

What an interesting exercise in civics this is.
posted by chicobangs at 7:50 AM on September 23, 2004

chico, it's funny because to hear Bush speak about ihs plans for teh future he seems to talk about entitlement programs even more than Kerry does... Maybe tat's why this army of young conservatives was so surprised...

On the other hand, if liberals weren't winning the war of ideas then Bush wouldn't have had to name things "clear skies act" and "healthy forests act," implicit admissions that those things are important to people.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:07 AM on September 23, 2004

That's it, I'm burning this klunky old keyboard.
posted by Space Coyote at 8:08 AM on September 23, 2004

I think only people from 3 to 18 years of age should be allowed to vote in America. They seem to be the only ones with some brains left.
posted by acrobat at 8:19 AM on September 23, 2004

My brother lives in Eden Prairie, and we've talked about that closed-mindedness both there on the right and here in NYC on the left.

You have to admit it's interesting that the one place in the US which WAS attacked by terrorists is overwhelmingly anti-Bush though.
posted by clevershark at 8:22 AM on September 23, 2004

Let me rephrase that (damn my NYC-centric thinking there)... the places which were actually attacked by terrorists are overwhelmingly anti-Bush.
posted by clevershark at 8:24 AM on September 23, 2004

The kids made tally marks about each thing they agreed with from each candidate.

Then the kids voted on the issues.

Four kids voted for Bush. 26 kids voted for Kerry.

Boy, there's a shocker.

"When people think they vote Democrat."
-Bill Clinton
posted by bshort at 8:28 AM on September 23, 2004

in the past several years there has been a large constituency swinging (pun intended) towards conservatism.

What pun? I missed it.

Anyway, this whole thing sounds like a "one to grow on" from a disgruntled teacher. Obviously, the teacher engineered this "AHA" moment at the end of the exercise. The process of selecting things to read from each website gave him ample opportunity to portray each candidate selectively. I think kids do tend to vite more Democratic, because it's a more idealistic party, but I don't think this exercise reveals anything significant (except that some teacher in some cold state is a smart ass). Interesting to read though. Thanks for the post.
posted by scarabic at 8:44 AM on September 23, 2004

Obviously, the teacher engineered this "AHA" moment at the end of the exercise.

Maybe, maybe not. Without having been there to review what was selected from each website, you cannot possibly say one way or the other what is "obvious". I think the main point is the one that deanc pointed out. Choosing a candidate for president in the US is more a "lifestyle" decision than it involves a serious and sober issue-based comparison between and among candidates.

This is hardly a revelation, but it's a neat little fable to drive the point home.
posted by psmealey at 8:56 AM on September 23, 2004

I'm having a giggle at the idea that the results can only be explained by obvious treachery... the Republican desire for being the victim of something, while puzzling, seems to be something pervasive.
posted by clevershark at 9:04 AM on September 23, 2004

I think only people from 3 to 18 years of age should be allowed to vote in America. They seem to be the only ones with some brains left.

Good idea, acrobat. That way the kids would have fifteen years to get the country straightened out and the rest of their lives to find out how well they did. And they'd have to make sure to educate and earn the respect of the next generations or pay the consequences. I'm absolutely all for this.

Of course, Elmo would probably be our president (is he 35 yet?).
posted by Songdog at 9:16 AM on September 23, 2004

Boy, there's a shocker.

"When people think they vote Democrat."
-Bill Clinton


"When people think like third graders they vote Democrat"
posted by gyc at 9:20 AM on September 23, 2004

I think only people from 3 to 18 years of age should be allowed to vote in America.

I would love to see some ideas for attack ads that target this demographic.
posted by psmealey at 9:23 AM on September 23, 2004

"When people think like third graders they vote Democrat"

Wow, such a clever little jab, there. Some sharp wit you've got, there.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:27 AM on September 23, 2004

For what it's worth, deliberative polling tends to always lean left.

Though some would argue that it's due to extraneous factors, I think it's quite telling.
posted by rafter at 9:29 AM on September 23, 2004

"When people think like third graders they vote Democrat"

Tee hee.

So, from this experiment, we learn that 3rd graders find the phrasing on the Kerry site more appealing than the Bush site.

Telling.
posted by Ayn Marx at 9:34 AM on September 23, 2004

scarabic wrote: What pun? I missed it.

Sorry, that was my somewhat dense reference to Minnesota's move to "Swing State" status for the past couple presidential elections.

Quibble: Minnesota isn't really all that cold for most of the year, scarabic. I hate that misconception. :^)
posted by ScottUltra at 9:35 AM on September 23, 2004

I believe you can refer to this as indoctrination. Get them while they're young.
posted by a3matrix at 9:35 AM on September 23, 2004

"When people think like third graders they vote Democrat"


my fiancee is an elementary school teacher (she's taught 4th and 2nd grade), and here are some guesses at what kids around that age think, based on my observations:

- sharing is good, as long as everybody contributes and nobody tries to take more than they've earned
- hugging people is good
- naps are awesome
- everybody should sing and dance, even if they can't sing and dance well: the key part is having fun
- it's fun to compete, but everybody is a winner and everybody is special
- when you get hurt or are sick, you shouldn't be punished for it; somebody should take care of you and help you get better so that you can back to school (work)
- having an imagination is awesome: you should use it every chance you get

and this is bad how?
posted by lord_wolf at 9:35 AM on September 23, 2004

IMHO the point isn't whether the questions were loaded or the political proposals will be accurately portrayed. The impact is that the children quickly overruled their own choices because the outcome wasn't what they expected.

What Deanc said (where were you when I tried to say the same thing above?)
posted by infowar at 9:38 AM on September 23, 2004

I thought they were sixth-graders? She says "my 11-year-old's school". Sixth grade is old enough to apply critical thinking instead of "I like blue better than red!". Don't sell the kids short.
posted by Melinika at 9:43 AM on September 23, 2004

lord_wolf: The singing and dancing bit I must object to ;)
posted by abcde at 9:46 AM on September 23, 2004

Well, there is a reason Dems are referred to as the Nanny party. Is it surprising that kids (who look to be taken care of by someone else) would pull for the party that sees government as doing just that? (which isn't necessarily a bad thing, I'm just saying) The principle of self-reliance doesn't sound so great when you can't yet see over the steering wheel.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:47 AM on September 23, 2004

Let me rephrase that (damn my NYC-centric thinking there)... the places which were actually attacked by terrorists are overwhelmingly anti-Bush.

The Pentagon is anti-Bush? Explains a lot.
posted by palancik at 9:52 AM on September 23, 2004

I thought they were sixth-graders? She says "my 11-year-old's school".

Sixth grade for _______, third grade for _______, still minimally 11 years old. :-)
posted by nofundy at 10:27 AM on September 23, 2004

The impact is that the children quickly overruled their own choices because the outcome wasn't what they expected.

... Just restating that, you know, because, it's not as though almost everybody else in this thread seems to forget it. (Sorry for shouting at those of you who didn't, but, well, that was what this exercise was about, clearly.)

The point is that they had an idea about why Bush was "the right guy" that had nothing to do with what their actual opinions were.

In short, they have no goddamn clue why they're really doing anything.

Which is what's scary about this. Because in that regard, they are very little different from most of the rest of America. Including (most frighteningly) our President.
posted by lodurr at 10:50 AM on September 23, 2004

I think infowar nailed it. This would be as interesting as if students in a heavily Democratic area picked Bush in an informal straw poll and then were instantly ashamed. It's a good example of how people are more concerned with how they are labeled than with how they feel. People are more concerned with being on the right side than they are about whether that side truly serves their interests.

That desire to protect and defend your affiliation over your beliefs makes the prevelance of all the schoolyard comebacks in this thread ("Democrats think like third-graders, HA HA!") even funnier. Do people realize how silly they look?
posted by turaho at 10:53 AM on September 23, 2004

Bush alienated a lot of the elementary-school bloc on 9/11. Maybe these kids would have voted differently, if Bush had only stayed strong in that Sarasota classroom and vowed to the terrorists, "You're not gonna get our children." Instead he fled like a coward, leaving preschoolers and k-through-12ers everywhere feeling betrayed and vulnerable.
posted by eatitlive at 11:39 AM on September 23, 2004

my fiancee is an elementary school teacher (she's taught 4th and 2nd grade), and here are some guesses at what kids around that age think, based on my observations:

I take it you don't remember your own childhood?

- sharing is good, as long as everybody contributes and nobody tries to take more than they've earned

Sharing is good when someone else shares with me. I want the most.

- hugging people is good

Unless they have cooties.

- everybody should sing and dance, even if they can't sing and dance well: the key part is having fun

Plus, if they don't sing well, you can make fun of htem and make 'em cry. It's helarious.

- it's fun to compete, but everybody is a winner and everybody is special

The teacher says everyone is special, winners or losers. Whatever.

- having an imagination is awesome: you should use it every chance you get

Mmmmmm.... Television...

People who idelize childhood probably didn't have enough glucose growing up, or something, and can't remember it properly. Or at least they wern't around many other kids. Adults love being around children because Children can't hurt them the way they can other Children.

I'm not saying Kids are evil, or whatever, but they are not perfict little angles who need to be "taught to hate" or whatever. IMO Adults have more perspective and more empathy.
posted by delmoi at 12:01 PM on September 23, 2004

Metafilter: perfict little angles
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:04 PM on September 23, 2004

my fiancee is an elementary school teacher (she's taught 4th and 2nd grade), and here are some guesses at what kids around that age think, based on my observations

Are you sure they aren't based on that stupid poster that was popular a few years ago?
posted by jpoulos at 12:23 PM on September 23, 2004

I take it you don't remember your own childhood?

like athena, i sprang into the world fully-formed as a young adult. yeah, i missed all the nap times and milk and cookies and all that, but i bypassed the cracking voice, awkward body, and pimples of puberty and that fucking rocks.

People who idelize childhood probably didn't have enough glucose growing up, or something, and can't remember it properly.

or maybe some of the people who appear to idealize childhood are instead remembering certain qualities of that time of their lives and wondering why those qualities, beliefs and behaviors have to be completely abandoned in favor of an "adult" view of the world that idealizes so-called rugged individualism, cupidity (in the guise of being a good 9-to-5'er and pursuing the american dream), and the discarding of childhood dreams.

there are many ways in which we adults need to be more child-like in our approach to the world and to each other. i'm not saying we need to act like we're on sesame street, but there are some child like behaviors and beliefs that would be awesome if they were combined with the adult perspective and capacity for empathy that you noted. (note: if i knew exactly what they were and how to combine them with adult qualities, i wouldn't be typing this, i'd be out there ushering in a golden age of transcendence for all of humanity)

I'm not saying Kids are evil, or whatever, but they are not perfict little angles who need to be "taught to hate" or whatever

good, b/c i wasn't saying kids were perfect little angels. i've worked as a substitute teacher in elementary school, and i usually felt like strangling about 99% of the little bastards by 10 am.

please note that my earlier post was intended as a light-hearted refutation of the "democrats=3rd graders" jibes seen upthread, not a plan of action for the u.s.a.

Are you sure they aren't based on that stupid poster that was popular a few years ago?

you need a hug, biyatch.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:05 PM on September 23, 2004

palancik --- it certainly looks that way. Of course the article mostly refers to career military personnel; the non-combat-experienced civilians which have been put in as their de-facto superiors are quite happy with the White House.
posted by clevershark at 1:31 PM on September 23, 2004

The point is that they had an idea about why Bush was "the right guy" that had nothing to do with what their actual opinions were.

This reminds me of that after school movie "The Wave," where a teacher recruits all the students into a "youth movement" based on disciplined living, excellence, respect for classmates, etc. He eventually reveals to them that this was the way the Nazi party was built.

I can't say whether the teacher engineered the "AHA" experience, without having been there, but it is possible to represent any political ideology in very logical, appealing terms if you try.

"No one goes hungry, everyone has a job, the government serves the people, men and women are equal" sounds great, until you call it "Communism." I'm sure the kids would change their votes on that, too.
posted by scarabic at 1:37 PM on September 23, 2004

lord wolf ... could it be that the current generation of 3rd graders actually have a different perspective generally, as a generation? ... what you've described here is also described in strauss and howe's books about generations in american society ... "the fourth turning" etc ... the millenial generation, they think, will be more cooperative and more unified than either the baby boomers or the gen xer's ... in their viewpoint, they are the modern equivalent of the "greatest generation" that fought ww2 and established post ww2 america and will have a very different way of thinking and reacting than we do
posted by pyramid termite at 2:59 PM on September 23, 2004

"No one goes hungry, everyone has a job, the government serves the people, men and women are equal" sounds great, until you call it "Communism."

FUCKING BOLSHEVIK TERRORISTS

THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND
posted by solistrato at 3:22 PM on September 23, 2004

I call scarabic communism.

Take that.
posted by Space Coyote at 4:18 PM on September 23, 2004

the millenial generation, they think, will be more cooperative and more unified than either the baby boomers or the gen xer's

I hope so. The world really could be a wonderful place to live for everyone if we all worked toward it. Maybe they'll manage to do it.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:42 PM on September 23, 2004

It's a wonderful world, and human beings must live to their full potential, except for the scum-sucking terrorist foreigners, who must be killed in their beds.
posted by Slagman at 8:15 AM on September 30, 2004