hey cheerleaders!
February 1, 2005 2:36 PM Subscribe
What I Heard about Iraq --from 1992 until today. head-spinning.
Any student of history pre-G.W. Bush would be unsurprised by any of this. It is very American.
Also: America is only [arbitrary number] steps away from becoming Nazi Germany. (Just to get that sorted out early on in the thread.)
posted by Kleptophoria! at 2:44 PM on February 1, 2005
Also: America is only [arbitrary number] steps away from becoming Nazi Germany. (Just to get that sorted out early on in the thread.)
posted by Kleptophoria! at 2:44 PM on February 1, 2005
Klepto, please point us all towards another blatant and well-documented example of this. I'd love to see it.
posted by amberglow at 2:47 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by amberglow at 2:47 PM on February 1, 2005
I had read this piece yesterday and also found it very well put together. Today, while all celebrating free elections, I am now reminded of the old days in America where they would hand out booze if you voted for the right guy. Now, in Iraq, a cute twist on this for turnout:
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/hard_news/000192.php
posted by Postroad at 2:48 PM on February 1, 2005
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/hard_news/000192.php
posted by Postroad at 2:48 PM on February 1, 2005
Any student of history pre-G.W. Bush would be unsurprised by any of this. It is very American.
Also: America is only [arbitrary number] steps away from becoming Nazi Germany. (Just to get that sorted out early on in the thread.)
The irony is overwhelming. Big student of history are ya?
posted by TetrisKid at 2:52 PM on February 1, 2005
Also: America is only [arbitrary number] steps away from becoming Nazi Germany. (Just to get that sorted out early on in the thread.)
The irony is overwhelming. Big student of history are ya?
posted by TetrisKid at 2:52 PM on February 1, 2005
That's a nice collection of quotes. The Busheviks should go to prison for treason and war crimes.
posted by VP_Admin at 2:52 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by VP_Admin at 2:52 PM on February 1, 2005
Any chance of this being printed on the front page of USA Today?
posted by Pretty_Generic at 2:55 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by Pretty_Generic at 2:55 PM on February 1, 2005
Americans think they are so unlike Nazis. They forget, it wasn't so long ago that Blacks were not considered human. In the spirit of ultra-capitalism, Black people were considered property.
Americans also forget the genocide of the native Americans. Leonard Peltier is still in prison for defending himself against white-supremecist federal agents.
Now, Americans don't consider Iraqi lives to be worth much. There's obviously a double standard. The wealthy elite who chose to send our troops to kill and die in Iraq also consider the children of the lower-classes to be expendable as cannon-fodder.
America is ruled by the neoconfederates. America's foreign policy is reflective of the white-supremecists who've taken power.
posted by VP_Admin at 2:58 PM on February 1, 2005
Americans also forget the genocide of the native Americans. Leonard Peltier is still in prison for defending himself against white-supremecist federal agents.
Now, Americans don't consider Iraqi lives to be worth much. There's obviously a double standard. The wealthy elite who chose to send our troops to kill and die in Iraq also consider the children of the lower-classes to be expendable as cannon-fodder.
America is ruled by the neoconfederates. America's foreign policy is reflective of the white-supremecists who've taken power.
posted by VP_Admin at 2:58 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: If you wielded any broader a brush, I don't think you could hold it.
You also might want to tone it down if you don't wish to be taken as a lunatic.
posted by xmutex at 3:00 PM on February 1, 2005
You also might want to tone it down if you don't wish to be taken as a lunatic.
posted by xmutex at 3:00 PM on February 1, 2005
Now what would REALLY be nice is a big ol', cross-referenced, hyperlinked file with annotations to the sources for each quote or statistic.
Come on, LazyWeb™!
posted by 40 Watt at 3:02 PM on February 1, 2005
Come on, LazyWeb™!
posted by 40 Watt at 3:02 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: If you wielded any broader a brush, I don't think you could hold it.
You also might want to tone it down if you don't wish to be taken as a lunatic.
posted by xmutex
Why should I care if Americans consider me to be a lunatic? Very damned few Americans haven't got their heads up their asses. Even the American left seems decadent and detached from reality. The American mainstream is a bunch of goose-stepping brown-shirts. The American right consists of blood-thirsty, white-supremecist, Christian-taliban, pirate-capitalist butchers.
I'm just not very concerned about the opinions of Americans.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:08 PM on February 1, 2005
You also might want to tone it down if you don't wish to be taken as a lunatic.
posted by xmutex
Why should I care if Americans consider me to be a lunatic? Very damned few Americans haven't got their heads up their asses. Even the American left seems decadent and detached from reality. The American mainstream is a bunch of goose-stepping brown-shirts. The American right consists of blood-thirsty, white-supremecist, Christian-taliban, pirate-capitalist butchers.
I'm just not very concerned about the opinions of Americans.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:08 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: Is that bit out of your stand-up routine or are you ad-libbing?
posted by xmutex at 3:10 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by xmutex at 3:10 PM on February 1, 2005
I'm shocked! SHOCKED!
Who cares? Does any of this matter? The public has already swallowed this steaming lump of crap, and no one is going to be able to convince them that they were duped. This was all obvious back in '03 to those of us with enough brain cells to make a synapse, but the people who believed it will never backtrack on it. What the people who actually care about this country have to do is convince the idiotic masses that this war is going nowhere.
I'm just not very concerned about the opinions of Americans.
As you shouldn't be. We've already proven ourselves to be adverse to reason and truth.
posted by borkingchikapa at 3:11 PM on February 1, 2005
Who cares? Does any of this matter? The public has already swallowed this steaming lump of crap, and no one is going to be able to convince them that they were duped. This was all obvious back in '03 to those of us with enough brain cells to make a synapse, but the people who believed it will never backtrack on it. What the people who actually care about this country have to do is convince the idiotic masses that this war is going nowhere.
I'm just not very concerned about the opinions of Americans.
As you shouldn't be. We've already proven ourselves to be adverse to reason and truth.
posted by borkingchikapa at 3:11 PM on February 1, 2005
I'm not trying to amuse anyone. I just have a rather low opinion of the vast majority of my countrymen. What are you so defensive about, are you proud of America and it's foreign policy, or of America's history?
posted by VP_Admin at 3:13 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by VP_Admin at 3:13 PM on February 1, 2005
You can't group people together morally by the country in which they live. I learnt this at about age 2.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:14 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by Pretty_Generic at 3:14 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: I just happen to be American and consider myself neither detached, decadent, elite, white supremacist, neoconfederate, nor any of the other goddamned nonsense you spouted off. Along with 60%+ of this site, I would assume.
So maybe you want to unclench a little with the sweeping knee-jerk generalizations.
posted by xmutex at 3:22 PM on February 1, 2005
So maybe you want to unclench a little with the sweeping knee-jerk generalizations.
posted by xmutex at 3:22 PM on February 1, 2005
are you proud of America and it's foreign policy, or of America's history?
No, not lately. At times, very much. And as one of America's vast middle, I can tell you that I don't wear brown. It's a really bad color for me.
Jack down the outrage, VP_Admin. There's bad people afoot, but we can't fight them if you're slugging anything that moves.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:22 PM on February 1, 2005
No, not lately. At times, very much. And as one of America's vast middle, I can tell you that I don't wear brown. It's a really bad color for me.
Jack down the outrage, VP_Admin. There's bad people afoot, but we can't fight them if you're slugging anything that moves.
posted by Wulfgar! at 3:22 PM on February 1, 2005
I hope that the truth of this war will be seen one day by our entire planet. hegemony that is Bush & Co. will be brought to justice. Justice is the accurate reward or punishment for ones actions. I truly believe that everyone that has supported the wanton murder ( under the heading of war) rots in hell. There is no justification for pre emptive war. If there was an alternative course of action then it should have been taken. The weapon inspections were working. Saddam was a paper tiger.
$300 billion, 100 thousand dead & maimed Iraqis 10 maimed US soldiers, 1500 dead soldiers is the tally so far.
Isn't our country smart enough to promote democracy in a more efficient way and with less loss of life?
I we could have spent 100 billion to assassinate Saddam and we would have come out ahead. If I had to choose between the two, war vs. assassination then I would have picked assassination. Our govt. condones the the Israeli use of assassination. Are we that inept?
posted by wonway at 3:27 PM on February 1, 2005
$300 billion, 100 thousand dead & maimed Iraqis 10 maimed US soldiers, 1500 dead soldiers is the tally so far.
Isn't our country smart enough to promote democracy in a more efficient way and with less loss of life?
I we could have spent 100 billion to assassinate Saddam and we would have come out ahead. If I had to choose between the two, war vs. assassination then I would have picked assassination. Our govt. condones the the Israeli use of assassination. Are we that inept?
posted by wonway at 3:27 PM on February 1, 2005
I'm not saying all Americans are the same. I will say that the vast majority of Americans own a share of responsibility for America's crimes.
We're responsible, either for our action, our inaction, or our consumption of the bounty of exploitation. Even most of us who stand against Bush aren't really as active as we ought to be, considering how desperate the situation is for those people who're bearing the brunt of the injustice.
Americans tend to have a chip on their shoulder. It's cultural arrogance, among the right and the left. American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:27 PM on February 1, 2005
We're responsible, either for our action, our inaction, or our consumption of the bounty of exploitation. Even most of us who stand against Bush aren't really as active as we ought to be, considering how desperate the situation is for those people who're bearing the brunt of the injustice.
Americans tend to have a chip on their shoulder. It's cultural arrogance, among the right and the left. American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:27 PM on February 1, 2005
Any chance of this being printed on the front page of USA Today?
if your printer is big enough, you can load that fine newspaper's front page in it, then superimpose the article on said front page. life being made up of the proverbial small pleasures and all
posted by matteo at 3:31 PM on February 1, 2005
if your printer is big enough, you can load that fine newspaper's front page in it, then superimpose the article on said front page. life being made up of the proverbial small pleasures and all
posted by matteo at 3:31 PM on February 1, 2005
Americans tend to have a chip on their shoulder. It's cultural arrogance...American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
You don't say!
posted by dhoyt at 3:31 PM on February 1, 2005
You don't say!
posted by dhoyt at 3:31 PM on February 1, 2005
Why should I care if Americans consider me to be a lunatic?
Because we have guns.
posted by kindall at 3:37 PM on February 1, 2005
Because we have guns.
posted by kindall at 3:37 PM on February 1, 2005
STFU LIB'RULS!
WE WENT TO IRAQ TO GIVE THEM THE GIFT OF DEMOCRACY*
WE WENT TO IRAQ TO GIVE THEM THE GIFT OF DEMOCRACY*
*Not valid in Sunni majority provinces. "Democracy" means the right to cast a ballot, not necessarily to know for whom you're voting. Democracy means the right to cast a ballot, not necessarily national sovereignty. Democracy means the right to cast a ballot, not to decide who owns your oil. Not valid with other offers, like voting for Islamic theocracy or a pro-Iranian government. Must retain fourteen permanent U.S. military bases to play. Voting will not restore lost parents or children, and will not remove the horror from your soul. Void where prohibited by the USA Patriot Act, the Bybee Memo, Proconsul John Negroponte or any U.S. Soldier's whim.posted by orthogonality at 3:40 PM on February 1, 2005
Why should I care if Americans consider me to be a lunatic?
Because we have guns.
And boxes.
posted by xmutex at 3:40 PM on February 1, 2005
Because we have guns.
And boxes.
posted by xmutex at 3:40 PM on February 1, 2005
Not bad at all.
The last line seems off course to me, but why not.
posted by pwedza at 3:41 PM on February 1, 2005
The last line seems off course to me, but why not.
posted by pwedza at 3:41 PM on February 1, 2005
TetrisKid: My reference to Nazi Germany was tongue-in-cheek and in reference to the nature disintegration of such discussions. Maybe! Oh, it is so hard to tell without emoticons!
Somebody's totally not invited to my LiveJournal friends' list.
amberglow: I'm not talking specifically about lists of American government lies in reference to specific events, but more like deception to persue questionable foreign policy in general. Like any number of actions in Latin America. I'm talking mainly about all that "communist" stuff and the assassination attempts and so on.
The whole "say one thing and do another". Like when Wilson talked about self-determination and was all very much hammering this jazz out in Paris postwar, but tried his best to keep Panama under American control and keep the Monroe Doctrine alive so America could do whatever it wanted with the Latin American countries. And that was just Wilson-- a pretty cool guy.
Talking about spreading freedom and democracy while helping authoritarian dictators take down democratically elected governments. That's the American way. I'm just saying people shouldn't be surprised when it turns out the American government was, like, totally being tricky and sneaky.
That's sort of what I mean.
posted by Kleptophoria! at 3:41 PM on February 1, 2005
Somebody's totally not invited to my LiveJournal friends' list.
amberglow: I'm not talking specifically about lists of American government lies in reference to specific events, but more like deception to persue questionable foreign policy in general. Like any number of actions in Latin America. I'm talking mainly about all that "communist" stuff and the assassination attempts and so on.
The whole "say one thing and do another". Like when Wilson talked about self-determination and was all very much hammering this jazz out in Paris postwar, but tried his best to keep Panama under American control and keep the Monroe Doctrine alive so America could do whatever it wanted with the Latin American countries. And that was just Wilson-- a pretty cool guy.
Talking about spreading freedom and democracy while helping authoritarian dictators take down democratically elected governments. That's the American way. I'm just saying people shouldn't be surprised when it turns out the American government was, like, totally being tricky and sneaky.
That's sort of what I mean.
posted by Kleptophoria! at 3:41 PM on February 1, 2005
kindall, xmutex, you'll never get me, you dirty bush-lovers.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:43 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by VP_Admin at 3:43 PM on February 1, 2005
P.S. This Iraq thing isn't really so bad. Maybe not being handled as well as it could be, but losing Saddam could lead to good things down the road.
posted by Kleptophoria! at 3:44 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by Kleptophoria! at 3:44 PM on February 1, 2005
And cameras. Except in Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib.
posted by anthill at 3:52 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by anthill at 3:52 PM on February 1, 2005
P.S. This Iraq thing isn't really so bad...
posted by Kleptophoria!
Tell that to the families of the dead and maimed. Maybe you can convince Ali Abbas that it was worth it.
BTW, xmutex, I meant "Bush-lover" - One who loves George Bush.
I don't really know you, and it may well be a scurrilous accusation, but I'm hoping to contribute to an atmosphere where Bush supporters feel afraid to admit they support Bush.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:56 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by Kleptophoria!
Tell that to the families of the dead and maimed. Maybe you can convince Ali Abbas that it was worth it.
BTW, xmutex, I meant "Bush-lover" - One who loves George Bush.
I don't really know you, and it may well be a scurrilous accusation, but I'm hoping to contribute to an atmosphere where Bush supporters feel afraid to admit they support Bush.
posted by VP_Admin at 3:56 PM on February 1, 2005
You're not winning many folk over with reasoned debate there, VP_Admin.
Interesting article, amberglow.
posted by dazed_one at 4:03 PM on February 1, 2005
Interesting article, amberglow.
posted by dazed_one at 4:03 PM on February 1, 2005
How old are you, VP_Admin?
My disdain for your silly histrionics has nothing to do with any political opinion.
Maybe you misunderstood all those Rage Against the Machine liner notes?
posted by xmutex at 4:06 PM on February 1, 2005
My disdain for your silly histrionics has nothing to do with any political opinion.
Maybe you misunderstood all those Rage Against the Machine liner notes?
posted by xmutex at 4:06 PM on February 1, 2005
Great link, thanks.
posted by interrobang at 4:07 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by interrobang at 4:07 PM on February 1, 2005
You can't group people together morally by the country in which they live.
But people everywhere do. Although this anti-americanism is becoming very tiresome, it is not becoming a less valid position to hold.
Any of you Americans that have been fortunate enough to travel outside of your good country within the last two years would agree: Americans are absolutely despised.
While the reasoning behind this hatred is questionable, the hate itself is irrefutable. So if we are to accept VP admin's premise that Americans think they are so unlike Nazis then we can expect a lack of concern for the rest of the world's opinion.
posted by verisimilitude at 4:09 PM on February 1, 2005
But people everywhere do. Although this anti-americanism is becoming very tiresome, it is not becoming a less valid position to hold.
Any of you Americans that have been fortunate enough to travel outside of your good country within the last two years would agree: Americans are absolutely despised.
While the reasoning behind this hatred is questionable, the hate itself is irrefutable. So if we are to accept VP admin's premise that Americans think they are so unlike Nazis then we can expect a lack of concern for the rest of the world's opinion.
posted by verisimilitude at 4:09 PM on February 1, 2005
Any of you Americans that have been fortunate enough to travel outside of your good country within the last two years would agree: Americans are absolutely despised.
Outside of my good country during the last two years. Disagree.
posted by mlis at 4:14 PM on February 1, 2005
Outside of my good country during the last two years. Disagree.
posted by mlis at 4:14 PM on February 1, 2005
Ok, parisparamus, you're not fooling anyone with that phony "VP_admin" sockpuppet account.
I know, I know, I get it. "Let's make liberals look like preening 12-year-old brats by posing as one on the internet". Nice try.
American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
I have to admit, paris, the remarks about sophistication, sensitivity & consideration were a deliciously ironic touch, especially in light of the phony "political humor" site you set up. You Machiavellian bastard.
This incident was a dead giveaway you were up to no good, though.
posted by dhoyt at 4:15 PM on February 1, 2005
I know, I know, I get it. "Let's make liberals look like preening 12-year-old brats by posing as one on the internet". Nice try.
American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
I have to admit, paris, the remarks about sophistication, sensitivity & consideration were a deliciously ironic touch, especially in light of the phony "political humor" site you set up. You Machiavellian bastard.
This incident was a dead giveaway you were up to no good, though.
posted by dhoyt at 4:15 PM on February 1, 2005
How old are you, VP_Admin?
What, you're jealous of my revolutionary zeal because you're old, dried up, compromised and you've run out of passion for justice?
My disdain for your silly histrionics has nothing to do with any political opinion.
This was your response to the topic of this thread:
Here we go again.
posted by xmutex at 2:38 PM PST on February 1
You don't like controversy? Perhaps you are tired of people arguing about the war? You're not as tired as the people who're experiencing the war.
Maybe you misunderstood all those Rage Against the Machine liner notes?
posted by xmutex
I never read them, but I sure like Zach de la Rocha. What a guy. Sure, he's a bit dramatic, but he doesn't have much patience for imperialists. Perhaps you like to listen to the cranberries, or white stripes.
posted by VP_Admin at 4:17 PM on February 1, 2005
What, you're jealous of my revolutionary zeal because you're old, dried up, compromised and you've run out of passion for justice?
My disdain for your silly histrionics has nothing to do with any political opinion.
This was your response to the topic of this thread:
Here we go again.
posted by xmutex at 2:38 PM PST on February 1
You don't like controversy? Perhaps you are tired of people arguing about the war? You're not as tired as the people who're experiencing the war.
Maybe you misunderstood all those Rage Against the Machine liner notes?
posted by xmutex
I never read them, but I sure like Zach de la Rocha. What a guy. Sure, he's a bit dramatic, but he doesn't have much patience for imperialists. Perhaps you like to listen to the cranberries, or white stripes.
posted by VP_Admin at 4:17 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: I don't really know you, and it may well be a scurrilous accusation, but I'm hoping to contribute to an atmosphere where Bush supporters feel afraid to admit they support Bush.
Well, you're definitely contributing something to the atmosphere, anyway.
verisimilitude: Any of you Americans that have been fortunate enough to travel outside of your good country within the last two years would agree: Americans are absolutely despised.
What MLIS said. Fortunately, and apparently off your radar, a lot of folks outside of the US are just as reasonable as the majority of the ones inside. There's a difference between having an opinion and being a rabid fucking wingnut.
posted by cortex at 4:19 PM on February 1, 2005
Well, you're definitely contributing something to the atmosphere, anyway.
verisimilitude: Any of you Americans that have been fortunate enough to travel outside of your good country within the last two years would agree: Americans are absolutely despised.
What MLIS said. Fortunately, and apparently off your radar, a lot of folks outside of the US are just as reasonable as the majority of the ones inside. There's a difference between having an opinion and being a rabid fucking wingnut.
posted by cortex at 4:19 PM on February 1, 2005
I will say that the vast majority of Americans own a share of responsibility for America's crimes.
Seems a vast majority of Americans are originally from countries around the world. Or do you mean by Americans, the native Indians that lived here first?
posted by thomcatspike at 4:35 PM on February 1, 2005
Seems a vast majority of Americans are originally from countries around the world. Or do you mean by Americans, the native Indians that lived here first?
posted by thomcatspike at 4:35 PM on February 1, 2005
Ok, parisparamus, you're not fooling anyone with that phony "VP_admin" sockpuppet account.
I know, I know, I get it. "Let's make liberals look like preening 12-year-old brats by posing as one on the internet". Nice try.
Preening 12-yr old brat? That's harsh. I don't know who parisparamus is. I'm saddened that you think my anti-imperialist screeds are immature and are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
I have to admit, paris, the remarks about sophistication, sensitivity & consideration were a deliciously ironic touch, especially in light of the phony "political humor" site you set up. You Machiavellian bastard.
You call the fruits of my labor a phony "political humor" site? What's phony about it? You're some kind of culture-snob, apparently.
This incident was a dead giveaway you were up to no good, though.
posted by dhoyt
Sorry I don't meet your standards for cultural excellence.
posted by VP_Admin at 4:44 PM on February 1, 2005
I know, I know, I get it. "Let's make liberals look like preening 12-year-old brats by posing as one on the internet". Nice try.
Preening 12-yr old brat? That's harsh. I don't know who parisparamus is. I'm saddened that you think my anti-imperialist screeds are immature and are giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
American culture has an insensitive, boorish, gluttonous, unsophisticated and inconsiderate character.
I have to admit, paris, the remarks about sophistication, sensitivity & consideration were a deliciously ironic touch, especially in light of the phony "political humor" site you set up. You Machiavellian bastard.
You call the fruits of my labor a phony "political humor" site? What's phony about it? You're some kind of culture-snob, apparently.
This incident was a dead giveaway you were up to no good, though.
posted by dhoyt
Sorry I don't meet your standards for cultural excellence.
posted by VP_Admin at 4:44 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin is one of those Americans who makes me glad I'm not American.
posted by Jairus at 4:44 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by Jairus at 4:44 PM on February 1, 2005
My guess from his ramblings is that he doesn't know what he means.
posted by xmutex at 4:46 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by xmutex at 4:46 PM on February 1, 2005
orthogonality please post that as a link. Great stuff.
Seconded. Also: "In all the media hoopla over Sunday's 'election' in Iraq, a few details got missed."
posted by muckster at 4:47 PM on February 1, 2005
Seconded. Also: "In all the media hoopla over Sunday's 'election' in Iraq, a few details got missed."
posted by muckster at 4:47 PM on February 1, 2005
Seems a vast majority of Americans are originally from countries around the world. Or do you mean by Americans, the native Indians that lived here first?
posted by thomcatspike
The vast majority of living Americans, most of whom are not natives are collectively responsible for the crimes of America's recent history.
I defined three categories of responsibility:
responsibility for actions, for inaction, for consumption or ownership of the fruit of exploitation.
A whole continent was stolen from the Natives, some have estimated 11 trillion worth of labor was wrung out from the slaves, tremendous wealth has been enjoyed in America as a result of our unfair trade-arragements which come at the expense of developing countries who've been coerced by the threat of our military power.
Most every American is partaking in this feast of injustice, many celebrate and support the exploitation and aggression, many do not object, and of those that object, most do so without enough strength and conviction to truly be free of the karmic burden of American criminality.
posted by VP_Admin at 4:51 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by thomcatspike
The vast majority of living Americans, most of whom are not natives are collectively responsible for the crimes of America's recent history.
I defined three categories of responsibility:
responsibility for actions, for inaction, for consumption or ownership of the fruit of exploitation.
A whole continent was stolen from the Natives, some have estimated 11 trillion worth of labor was wrung out from the slaves, tremendous wealth has been enjoyed in America as a result of our unfair trade-arragements which come at the expense of developing countries who've been coerced by the threat of our military power.
Most every American is partaking in this feast of injustice, many celebrate and support the exploitation and aggression, many do not object, and of those that object, most do so without enough strength and conviction to truly be free of the karmic burden of American criminality.
posted by VP_Admin at 4:51 PM on February 1, 2005
Agreed, xmutex. He's just so... stereotypically that Big Annoying American, you know? Righteous indignation, insults people he doesn't agree with ("you're old, dried up, compromised!"), and the totally not-self-aware-at-all comments about Americans being "insensitive, boorish, inconsiderate".
I don't mean this as a slight against any of my friends from the USA here, but man am I glad he's not from my country.
posted by Jairus at 4:53 PM on February 1, 2005
I don't mean this as a slight against any of my friends from the USA here, but man am I glad he's not from my country.
posted by Jairus at 4:53 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: For someone who is so righteously into justice, you sure do make a lot of ha ha look gay is funny jokes on your little website.
posted by xmutex at 4:54 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by xmutex at 4:54 PM on February 1, 2005
for consumption or ownership of the fruit of exploitation.
The land I own was not even wanted by the Indians as it was originally marsh lands. You have any Indian relatives or friends. You may want to ask them their view before you speak for them. Mine told me I was welcomed.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2005
The land I own was not even wanted by the Indians as it was originally marsh lands. You have any Indian relatives or friends. You may want to ask them their view before you speak for them. Mine told me I was welcomed.
posted by thomcatspike at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2005
"The vast majority of living Americans, most of whom are not natives"
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us were born here.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:01 PM on February 1, 2005
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us were born here.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:01 PM on February 1, 2005
HTuttle: Ugh. That whole articles comes down to an 'ends justify means' argument. Any country's politics can be changed with the application of enough military force -- the idea that the application of force is okay because "now they can structure their government the same way we do" sets a very dangerous precedent.
posted by Jairus at 5:06 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by Jairus at 5:06 PM on February 1, 2005
Any of you Americans that have been fortunate enough to travel outside of your good country within the last two years would agree: Americans are absolutely despised.
verisimilitude - I found nothing of the sort and I have traveled to Europe three times in the last two years.
and VP... you ever read any history of Europe? My friend, we Americans are simply the most recent entrants, and so far most idealistic rank amateurs, at this world oppression and slaughter thing. The US has had the unfortunate timing of doing it AFTER Human Rights and Universal suffrage were widely accepted ideals. Ideals many Americans HELPED found, BTW.
Ever ask yourself why most of central and west Africa speaks French? You think the standard of living and culture in Europe - the billions of cumulative labor hours over the last three hundred years - was all organic farming and collectivist humanitarian reasoning? All of civilization - Euro Social Democracy and US Corporate consumerism - at some point has built itself on the suffering and oppression of those less technically advanced.
Sure it's hard these days to feel too good about America. I agree. But we have done - and continue to do - many great and admirable things, both as individuals and collectively. One would be a fool to argue with that absolute fact.
And nary a one of us fails to benefit from the spoils of empire to one degree or another. Either directly or indirectly. Don't make it right. It just IS.
And I don't have fruit in my exploitation! I got crabs! And damn proud of 'em.
posted by tkchrist at 5:13 PM on February 1, 2005
verisimilitude - I found nothing of the sort and I have traveled to Europe three times in the last two years.
and VP... you ever read any history of Europe? My friend, we Americans are simply the most recent entrants, and so far most idealistic rank amateurs, at this world oppression and slaughter thing. The US has had the unfortunate timing of doing it AFTER Human Rights and Universal suffrage were widely accepted ideals. Ideals many Americans HELPED found, BTW.
Ever ask yourself why most of central and west Africa speaks French? You think the standard of living and culture in Europe - the billions of cumulative labor hours over the last three hundred years - was all organic farming and collectivist humanitarian reasoning? All of civilization - Euro Social Democracy and US Corporate consumerism - at some point has built itself on the suffering and oppression of those less technically advanced.
Sure it's hard these days to feel too good about America. I agree. But we have done - and continue to do - many great and admirable things, both as individuals and collectively. One would be a fool to argue with that absolute fact.
And nary a one of us fails to benefit from the spoils of empire to one degree or another. Either directly or indirectly. Don't make it right. It just IS.
And I don't have fruit in my exploitation! I got crabs! And damn proud of 'em.
posted by tkchrist at 5:13 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: For someone who is so righteously into justice, you sure do make a lot of ha ha look gay is funny jokes on your little website.
posted by xmutex
One of the themes I explore is sexual-pairings of public figures. I'm going for maximum offense(within constraints), and to the people I'm targetting, gayness is considered sinful, so sometimes I portray them as gay for maximum offensiveness to them.
It's not about how I feel about gays. I celebrate people who make their own choices in life. It's about how they feel about gays.
posted by VP_Admin at 5:14 PM on February 1, 2005
Agreed, xmutex. He's just so... stereotypically that Big Annoying American, you know? Righteous indignation, insults people he doesn't agree with ("you're old, dried up, compromised!"), and the totally not-self-aware-at-all comments about Americans being "insensitive, boorish, inconsiderate".
...
posted by Jairus
Sorry to offend your delicate Canadian sensibilities. I'm actually aware of the "Big Annoying American" aspect of my personality. Sorry about that, it's deeply ingrained in my personality. It comes out on the internet moreso than other places. I can be rather quiet and subtle in person (at least I think so).
posted by VP_Admin at 5:25 PM on February 1, 2005
...
posted by Jairus
Sorry to offend your delicate Canadian sensibilities. I'm actually aware of the "Big Annoying American" aspect of my personality. Sorry about that, it's deeply ingrained in my personality. It comes out on the internet moreso than other places. I can be rather quiet and subtle in person (at least I think so).
posted by VP_Admin at 5:25 PM on February 1, 2005
Even most of us who stand against Bush aren't really as active as we ought to be, considering how desperate the situation is for those people who're bearing the brunt of the injustice.
i've heard that somewhere b4 ...
....Our country was murdering millions of people. Actually, their number is somewhere between three and five million people. This revelation was more than we could handle. We didn't know what to do about it, it was too great a fact.
Every second of my life, from 1965 to 1975, I was always aware that our country was attacking Vietnam...."
- Mark Rudd, The Weather Underground
I share your (basic) frustration about American exceptionalism, VP_Admin, but if you don't watch your moral superiority you'll splooge all over your keyboard.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:27 PM on February 1, 2005
i've heard that somewhere b4 ...
....Our country was murdering millions of people. Actually, their number is somewhere between three and five million people. This revelation was more than we could handle. We didn't know what to do about it, it was too great a fact.
Every second of my life, from 1965 to 1975, I was always aware that our country was attacking Vietnam...."
- Mark Rudd, The Weather Underground
I share your (basic) frustration about American exceptionalism, VP_Admin, but if you don't watch your moral superiority you'll splooge all over your keyboard.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:27 PM on February 1, 2005
mrgrimm,
thanks for the warning. I get carried away sometimes. Thanks for sharing that quote from Mark Rudd.
posted by VP_Admin at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2005
thanks for the warning. I get carried away sometimes. Thanks for sharing that quote from Mark Rudd.
posted by VP_Admin at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2005
HTurtle: What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?
The article's premise is: "Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something."
Hmmm... assuming that premise is correct, how does that make Bush right all along?
posted by Bort at 6:15 PM on February 1, 2005
The article's premise is: "Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something."
Hmmm... assuming that premise is correct, how does that make Bush right all along?
posted by Bort at 6:15 PM on February 1, 2005
He's been lying all along too, and has had many varying rationales for the war...we know for sure he wasn't right about WMDs, or the threat Saddam was to us, or the links bet. AlQaeda and Iraq, etc...
posted by amberglow at 6:23 PM on February 1, 2005
posted by amberglow at 6:23 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin: "I can be rather quiet and subtle in person (at least I think so)."
I'm sure you can be that online. Just try. It works better than frothing at the mouth, and convinces a helluva lot more people. Even people who agree with many of your sentiments - and I suspect there are more than a few of them here - wish you'd STFU with the 'Dear Leader is gay and therefore funny/bad' & 'Fuck America/Christianity' rhetoric.
Thanks for the link, amberglow...I've been looking for this kind of consolidated statement regarding the story-switching of the last decade or so.
posted by cosmonik at 6:28 PM on February 1, 2005
I'm sure you can be that online. Just try. It works better than frothing at the mouth, and convinces a helluva lot more people. Even people who agree with many of your sentiments - and I suspect there are more than a few of them here - wish you'd STFU with the 'Dear Leader is gay and therefore funny/bad' & 'Fuck America/Christianity' rhetoric.
Thanks for the link, amberglow...I've been looking for this kind of consolidated statement regarding the story-switching of the last decade or so.
posted by cosmonik at 6:28 PM on February 1, 2005
I suspect there are more than a few of them here - wish you'd STFU with the 'Dear Leader is gay and therefore funny/bad' & 'Fuck America/Christianity' rhetoric.
...
posted by cosmonik
With regards to the issue of sensitivity to people's sexual preferences, I explained this already:
One of the themes I explore is sexual-pairings of public figures. I'm going for maximum offense(within constraints), and to the people I'm targetting, gayness is considered sinful, so sometimes I portray them as gay for maximum offensiveness to them.
It's not about how I feel about gays. I celebrate people who make their own choices in life. It's about how they feel about gays.
posted by VP_Admin at 6:44 PM on February 1, 2005
...
posted by cosmonik
With regards to the issue of sensitivity to people's sexual preferences, I explained this already:
One of the themes I explore is sexual-pairings of public figures. I'm going for maximum offense(within constraints), and to the people I'm targetting, gayness is considered sinful, so sometimes I portray them as gay for maximum offensiveness to them.
It's not about how I feel about gays. I celebrate people who make their own choices in life. It's about how they feel about gays.
posted by VP_Admin at 6:44 PM on February 1, 2005
sien encouraged, and muckster seconded, my posting my snark as a FPP post, but I'm afraid I'm too new a Mefi member -- having joined only two days ago -- to have posting privileges.
So I'm afraid I can't oblige; and besides, I'm not certain that it would really cast enough new light to be a worthy FPP.
But if someone thinks it would elicit interesting commentary, and wants to post it to the front page, go ahead and have fun with it.
posted by orthogonality at 6:55 PM on February 1, 2005
So I'm afraid I can't oblige; and besides, I'm not certain that it would really cast enough new light to be a worthy FPP.
But if someone thinks it would elicit interesting commentary, and wants to post it to the front page, go ahead and have fun with it.
posted by orthogonality at 6:55 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin, you're "exploring" nothing beyond your own capacious fundament.
You're annoying. You're tedious. You're a three-chord garage band with two chords removed.
Shut the fuck up. Please.
posted by vetiver at 8:06 PM on February 1, 2005
You're annoying. You're tedious. You're a three-chord garage band with two chords removed.
Shut the fuck up. Please.
posted by vetiver at 8:06 PM on February 1, 2005
VP_Admin, you're "exploring" nothing beyond your own capacious fundament.
You're annoying. You're tedious. You're a three-chord garage band with two chords removed.
Shut the fuck up. Please.
posted by vetiver
capacious? fundament? WTF?
Ok, I've been cowed by your vocabulary. I'll STFU for a while. /me goes to dictionary.com
posted by VP_Admin at 8:24 PM on February 1, 2005
You're annoying. You're tedious. You're a three-chord garage band with two chords removed.
Shut the fuck up. Please.
posted by vetiver
capacious? fundament? WTF?
Ok, I've been cowed by your vocabulary. I'll STFU for a while. /me goes to dictionary.com
posted by VP_Admin at 8:24 PM on February 1, 2005
I celebrate people who make their own choices in life.
er - Bush doesnt count.
posted by whatisish at 5:27 AM on February 2, 2005
er - Bush doesnt count.
posted by whatisish at 5:27 AM on February 2, 2005
I'm still waiting for ANYONE in the media to mention/question the fact we're building 14 permanent military bases in Iraq.
Whilst many of the same are speculating as to when the soldiers will be coming home and leaving Iraq as an independent "shining city on a hill" democracy, bound to spread the "good news" to all dictatorships in the area!
There's an elephant in the living room media folks! Is it verboten to talk about it?
posted by nofundy at 5:38 AM on February 2, 2005
Whilst many of the same are speculating as to when the soldiers will be coming home and leaving Iraq as an independent "shining city on a hill" democracy, bound to spread the "good news" to all dictatorships in the area!
There's an elephant in the living room media folks! Is it verboten to talk about it?
posted by nofundy at 5:38 AM on February 2, 2005
There's an elephant in the living room media folks!
I always thought the elephant was the media folks.
posted by fullerine at 5:57 AM on February 2, 2005
I always thought the elephant was the media folks.
posted by fullerine at 5:57 AM on February 2, 2005
Metafilter: be free of the karmic burden of American criminality.
posted by bitmage at 6:25 AM on February 2, 2005
posted by bitmage at 6:25 AM on February 2, 2005
Look, anyone who didn't see this article coming is a fool. Or hasn't been paying attention. Much like VP_Admin. Do yourself a favor, stop commenting and read as much of this site as possible, specifically the comments and metatalk. For the love of god, if you are going to be a polemic asshat, find out who the other polemic asshats are, and maybe how to be an asshat with a modicum of panache.
Back to the topic at hand, reading these quotes reaffirms my belief that politics is much more like sports than anything else. It's about whose team you are on, not what team is right. Clearly no one who has read this list of quotes and believes them could continue to support George Bush. They do so only because to change their mind would be to decide that their hometown team is not worth following. That they were wrong, and maybe this year they should support the Eagles instead of the Packers because, demonstrably, the Eagles are better than the Packers. This is problematic because sports teams do not declare war and presidents, and politicians do.
posted by Freen at 7:51 AM on February 2, 2005
Back to the topic at hand, reading these quotes reaffirms my belief that politics is much more like sports than anything else. It's about whose team you are on, not what team is right. Clearly no one who has read this list of quotes and believes them could continue to support George Bush. They do so only because to change their mind would be to decide that their hometown team is not worth following. That they were wrong, and maybe this year they should support the Eagles instead of the Packers because, demonstrably, the Eagles are better than the Packers. This is problematic because sports teams do not declare war and presidents, and politicians do.
posted by Freen at 7:51 AM on February 2, 2005
Rotten.com has a good list too, delivered with their usual panache.
posted by iffley at 8:28 AM on February 6, 2005
posted by iffley at 8:28 AM on February 6, 2005
(And Rotten's list of other false pretexts for war is interesting too)
posted by iffley at 8:53 AM on February 6, 2005
posted by iffley at 8:53 AM on February 6, 2005
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posted by xmutex at 2:38 PM on February 1, 2005