Pre-emptive strike.....
March 5, 2005 1:43 AM Subscribe
Why do you hate America so much? Italian journalist hostage Giuliana Sgrena was freed from her Iraqi captors only to be shot and wounded by US troops firing at the convoy supposed to be carrying her to safety.
This post was deleted for the following reason: posted yesterday
"The US military said US soldiers who fired on a speeding vehicle waved their hands and arms, flashed white lights and fired warning shots in a failed attempt to get it to stop."
Overlook that detail at your peril...
posted by apocalypse miaow at 1:57 AM on March 5, 2005
Overlook that detail at your peril...
posted by apocalypse miaow at 1:57 AM on March 5, 2005
An unfortunate mistake, but if the Italians were really speeding towards a checkpoint in a car, you can hardly blame the soldiers for shooting.
posted by rooftop secrets at 1:58 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by rooftop secrets at 1:58 AM on March 5, 2005
and apocalypse beat me to it...
posted by rooftop secrets at 1:58 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by rooftop secrets at 1:58 AM on March 5, 2005
"The US military said US soldiers who fired on a speeding vehicle waved their hands and arms, flashed white lights and fired warning shots in a failed attempt to get it to stop."
Except the US military has previous when it comes to fabricating excuses for cock-ups..
posted by salmacis at 2:10 AM on March 5, 2005
Except the US military has previous when it comes to fabricating excuses for cock-ups..
posted by salmacis at 2:10 AM on March 5, 2005
hmm, reminds me of last week's thread about Joe Sacco's "Complacency Kills" article for The Guardian.
btw apocalypse you have a wicked nickname!
posted by wessatong at 2:10 AM on March 5, 2005
btw apocalypse you have a wicked nickname!
posted by wessatong at 2:10 AM on March 5, 2005
I thought it was strange that no one posted this earlier...
posted by rooftop secrets at 2:30 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by rooftop secrets at 2:30 AM on March 5, 2005
We've heard one account, from the US military, who in the past have given accounts of similar incidents that conflicted with eye-witness reports by third parties. (This does not necessarily mean they're lying; merely that there are grounds for questioning the circumstances further.) We have not yet heard from the Italian survivors.
But one thing's for sure: US troops just killed an Italian national hero. Nicola Calipari was a specialist in kidnap negotiations and rescue situations. Here's one Italian response to the events -- more accessible than most because it's in English. The Guardian article above mentions another: the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said he was "flabbergasted" by the shooting, which happened at around 9pm, and summoned the American ambassador for answers. Mr Berlusconi has maintained troops in Iraq despite public hostility.
This isn't a simple checkpoint cock-up; it's a major diplomatic blunder. You don't carpet an ambassador and demand explanations for trivia. Indeed, the severity of the response calls into question whether Berlusconi will be able to maintain troops in Iraq. If this is treated as a "shit happens" incident by the US military or the White House, the US is likely to lose one of its' remaining allies.
posted by cstross at 2:33 AM on March 5, 2005
But one thing's for sure: US troops just killed an Italian national hero. Nicola Calipari was a specialist in kidnap negotiations and rescue situations. Here's one Italian response to the events -- more accessible than most because it's in English. The Guardian article above mentions another: the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, said he was "flabbergasted" by the shooting, which happened at around 9pm, and summoned the American ambassador for answers. Mr Berlusconi has maintained troops in Iraq despite public hostility.
This isn't a simple checkpoint cock-up; it's a major diplomatic blunder. You don't carpet an ambassador and demand explanations for trivia. Indeed, the severity of the response calls into question whether Berlusconi will be able to maintain troops in Iraq. If this is treated as a "shit happens" incident by the US military or the White House, the US is likely to lose one of its' remaining allies.
posted by cstross at 2:33 AM on March 5, 2005
fullysic: *Apologises for apparent double post (did do usual due diligence checks) - Falls on sword blaming lack of knowledge of the relevance of Eason Jordan & time zones for lapse* Move along......
posted by fullysic at 2:56 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by fullysic at 2:56 AM on March 5, 2005
Curious, an expert italian agent doesn't know any better then ordering the driver to speed up at a checkpoint ? Suuuuure why not...maybe he didn't know the place is full of checkpoints ? Nay, he was in the area and already worked on liberating two other italian hostages (successfully as well, 2 italian volountary aid workers)
The most otrageous thing that needs double and triple checking is the allegation of the life companion of the journalist who alleged U.S. soldier fired at the car while the car was stopped ..he allegedly used the word "assassination" but that seems unlikely as they wouldn't have left anybody alive. It seems like another royal major fuckup of a multibillion dollar army that works like a 3rd world one.
posted by elpapacito at 3:51 AM on March 5, 2005
The most otrageous thing that needs double and triple checking is the allegation of the life companion of the journalist who alleged U.S. soldier fired at the car while the car was stopped ..he allegedly used the word "assassination" but that seems unlikely as they wouldn't have left anybody alive. It seems like another royal major fuckup of a multibillion dollar army that works like a 3rd world one.
posted by elpapacito at 3:51 AM on March 5, 2005
ops should have been on preview: cstross : apparently Bush already offered "condolescences" and expressed "regret" which is consistent with the assumption that, pending investigation, he's taking no blame.
That's perfectly reasonable pending investigation...unfortunately Multinational Forces command already issued a written statement in which they put the blame on the driver not stopping. Now the Pentagon will have to work with italian to extablish what happened, but it's already clear..for the public, the driver is to blame and that's the end of the diplomatic incident at least for the public.
That scores a -10000 point on record of U.S. armies who already did damage in Italy (an U.S.A.F. airplane cutted the cable of a cable car killing people..apparently the excuse was they were exercising in a no fly zone)reinforcing the concept that U.S. armies are plagued by frigging trigger happy cowboys.
posted by elpapacito at 4:03 AM on March 5, 2005
That's perfectly reasonable pending investigation...unfortunately Multinational Forces command already issued a written statement in which they put the blame on the driver not stopping. Now the Pentagon will have to work with italian to extablish what happened, but it's already clear..for the public, the driver is to blame and that's the end of the diplomatic incident at least for the public.
That scores a -10000 point on record of U.S. armies who already did damage in Italy (an U.S.A.F. airplane cutted the cable of a cable car killing people..apparently the excuse was they were exercising in a no fly zone)reinforcing the concept that U.S. armies are plagued by frigging trigger happy cowboys.
posted by elpapacito at 4:03 AM on March 5, 2005
actually, a triple post.
Sadly, the deleted post was the only one that posted the news story minus inflamatory rhetorical ploys such as "Why do you hate america?" or "Death to reporters!".
On a side note...how did Italy get this hostage and the two others freed? What are they giving up?
posted by srboisvert at 5:51 AM on March 5, 2005
Sadly, the deleted post was the only one that posted the news story minus inflamatory rhetorical ploys such as "Why do you hate america?" or "Death to reporters!".
On a side note...how did Italy get this hostage and the two others freed? What are they giving up?
posted by srboisvert at 5:51 AM on March 5, 2005
Dance-off.
posted by Kleptophoria! at 7:16 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by Kleptophoria! at 7:16 AM on March 5, 2005
Someone is lying their ass off.
Not really. In a war involving thousands upon thousands of people, shit like this happens all the time. I'm personally a Bush-hater, but the man is not sitting in a Fortress of Solitude going "Yay, I'm destroying freedom!" He believes in what he's doing, and he wants to win this war as bad as anyone. He does want to bring peace to Iraq -- he just had a faulty plan for it. And this incident is just an example of how hard it is to get a nation full of troops to pay attention, learn the proper rules and procedures, when you're bringing in guardsmen who never intended to serve in the "real" military and thus never prepped themselves.
Combine that with some diplomat that was frazzled, most likely hadn't had a great day, and for whatever unfathomable reason made the poor choice to get sloppy at the checkpoints.
It's shitty, yes. But shit does happen.
posted by NickDouglas at 7:26 AM on March 5, 2005
Not really. In a war involving thousands upon thousands of people, shit like this happens all the time. I'm personally a Bush-hater, but the man is not sitting in a Fortress of Solitude going "Yay, I'm destroying freedom!" He believes in what he's doing, and he wants to win this war as bad as anyone. He does want to bring peace to Iraq -- he just had a faulty plan for it. And this incident is just an example of how hard it is to get a nation full of troops to pay attention, learn the proper rules and procedures, when you're bringing in guardsmen who never intended to serve in the "real" military and thus never prepped themselves.
Combine that with some diplomat that was frazzled, most likely hadn't had a great day, and for whatever unfathomable reason made the poor choice to get sloppy at the checkpoints.
It's shitty, yes. But shit does happen.
posted by NickDouglas at 7:26 AM on March 5, 2005
Um... Double post?
actually, a triple post.
Quadruple post, not really, yet there is a site that contains the title, Why do you hate America so much?
posted by thomcatspike at 7:58 AM on March 5, 2005
actually, a triple post.
Quadruple post, not really, yet there is a site that contains the title, Why do you hate America so much?
posted by thomcatspike at 7:58 AM on March 5, 2005
NickDouglas, your level-headed perspective is refreshing.
posted by nyterrant at 8:10 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by nyterrant at 8:10 AM on March 5, 2005
It's shitty, yes. But shit does happen.
Nyterrant : oy , you calling that a perspective ? Certainly, it must be another picture of my ass ! Gimme a fucking break, or don't give I'm taking one already you willy nilly.
Shit does happen for sure, but why does it only conveniently happen when some PEOPLE screw up ? Lighting happen, rain happen ..anything happen WOW stop the press shit happens, that explain everything including cold fusion theories and conveniently closes the casket on the dead without involving still living people.
No sir, too easy. Way too easy and convenient...in a professional army whoever screws up takes reponsability ..but guess what, some high brass will twist it so that Joe Schumch is responsible.
I'm sorry for common Joe that will pay the price, but it has to be paid...I hope he screams so loud all the chickenhaws who williingly went to Iraq, knowing it was and still is a big enormous lie, will realize there's a price for pulling the trigger. Sure, who know how many iraquis suffered the same fate and will receive no justice...but this time somebody screwed up royally and it's better to have them scared of pulling triggers then not...let em learn war is not about videogames and carpet bombing and shooting at everything that moves because you're NOT GOING to be responsible.
posted by elpapacito at 8:40 AM on March 5, 2005
Nyterrant : oy , you calling that a perspective ? Certainly, it must be another picture of my ass ! Gimme a fucking break, or don't give I'm taking one already you willy nilly.
Shit does happen for sure, but why does it only conveniently happen when some PEOPLE screw up ? Lighting happen, rain happen ..anything happen WOW stop the press shit happens, that explain everything including cold fusion theories and conveniently closes the casket on the dead without involving still living people.
No sir, too easy. Way too easy and convenient...in a professional army whoever screws up takes reponsability ..but guess what, some high brass will twist it so that Joe Schumch is responsible.
I'm sorry for common Joe that will pay the price, but it has to be paid...I hope he screams so loud all the chickenhaws who williingly went to Iraq, knowing it was and still is a big enormous lie, will realize there's a price for pulling the trigger. Sure, who know how many iraquis suffered the same fate and will receive no justice...but this time somebody screwed up royally and it's better to have them scared of pulling triggers then not...let em learn war is not about videogames and carpet bombing and shooting at everything that moves because you're NOT GOING to be responsible.
posted by elpapacito at 8:40 AM on March 5, 2005
This site says it has more on the story.
Really more helpful insight here is the reason for the communication break down. As I would think there was some organization for her exit and a known route would have been planned. Cell phones do work in Iraq so again, why no communication.
Where there's a will - there's a way. So I am having trouble understanding this outcome today after this has happened so many times. Because modern technology should shore up the check points' dangers by this point in time.
posted by thomcatspike at 8:59 AM on March 5, 2005
Really more helpful insight here is the reason for the communication break down. As I would think there was some organization for her exit and a known route would have been planned. Cell phones do work in Iraq so again, why no communication.
Where there's a will - there's a way. So I am having trouble understanding this outcome today after this has happened so many times. Because modern technology should shore up the check points' dangers by this point in time.
posted by thomcatspike at 8:59 AM on March 5, 2005
but this time somebody screwed up royally and it's better to have them scared of pulling triggers then not
You're assuming that "somebody" was the person who pulled the trigger rather than "somebody" who should have passed on word that this rescue mission was coming down the pike.
Just out of curiosity, what do you imagine you would have done? Assuming that the car was speeding down on you, assuming that it was not responding to warnings, assuming that such behaviour usually indicates a suicide attack?
posted by IndigoJones at 9:08 AM on March 5, 2005
You're assuming that "somebody" was the person who pulled the trigger rather than "somebody" who should have passed on word that this rescue mission was coming down the pike.
Just out of curiosity, what do you imagine you would have done? Assuming that the car was speeding down on you, assuming that it was not responding to warnings, assuming that such behaviour usually indicates a suicide attack?
posted by IndigoJones at 9:08 AM on March 5, 2005
Anyone remember the Pat Tilman incident? Another example that shit happens. And war is chaos and hell, despite what we hear on TV (or see in the movies)
posted by nostrada at 9:11 AM on March 5, 2005
posted by nostrada at 9:11 AM on March 5, 2005
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posted by scarabic at 1:54 AM on March 5, 2005