The gay
July 18, 2005 6:51 PM Subscribe
Father kills toddler over gay fears a man has appeared in US court accused of killing his baby son because of an irrational fear that he would become gay.
I saw this on Fark a week ago. Child killers are very unpopular people in prisons. I imagine his own anxiety about gayness will be tested in a very concrete way.
(yeah, I know it's wrong to wish such things on someone, but this asshole desreves to suffer very badly one way or another, and I'm just venting anyway)
posted by jonmc at 7:05 PM on July 18, 2005
(yeah, I know it's wrong to wish such things on someone, but this asshole desreves to suffer very badly one way or another, and I'm just venting anyway)
posted by jonmc at 7:05 PM on July 18, 2005
That's one of the most awful things I've ever read... a full-grown adult basically beating a three-year-old to death over 8 days.
Hanging's too good a fate for the bastard.
posted by clevershark at 7:10 PM on July 18, 2005
Hanging's too good a fate for the bastard.
posted by clevershark at 7:10 PM on July 18, 2005
From what I am reading, it sounds like the entire extended family deserves a prison sentence for rationalizing away this whole incident.
posted by rolypolyman at 7:14 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by rolypolyman at 7:14 PM on July 18, 2005
I saw this on Fark a week ago. Child killers are very unpopular people in prisons. I imagine his own anxiety about gayness will be tested in a very concrete way.
that made me laugh hard.
The long and short of it for me is: He's your son. He's supposed to be sensibly afraid of other people. Not that anytime you have a jumprope that he might not going to see tommorow.
Killing your children is for other people. Its very basic
posted by Rubbstone at 7:14 PM on July 18, 2005
that made me laugh hard.
The long and short of it for me is: He's your son. He's supposed to be sensibly afraid of other people. Not that anytime you have a jumprope that he might not going to see tommorow.
Killing your children is for other people. Its very basic
posted by Rubbstone at 7:14 PM on July 18, 2005
Killing your children is for other people. Its very basic
...Uncomfortable silence...
posted by Jimbob at 7:21 PM on July 18, 2005
...Uncomfortable silence...
posted by Jimbob at 7:21 PM on July 18, 2005
that made me laugh hard.
I wasn't trying to be funny. This guy most likely will lead a miserable life in prison. Prisons are full of grown up abused kids with axes to grind against bastards like this.
I'm not attacking you, I just want to make clear that I find nothing about this tragedy amusing.
posted by jonmc at 7:22 PM on July 18, 2005
I wasn't trying to be funny. This guy most likely will lead a miserable life in prison. Prisons are full of grown up abused kids with axes to grind against bastards like this.
I'm not attacking you, I just want to make clear that I find nothing about this tragedy amusing.
posted by jonmc at 7:22 PM on July 18, 2005
Somebody on jimson weed, or clorox and ammonia fumes here, Rubbstone?
posted by nj_subgenius at 7:23 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by nj_subgenius at 7:23 PM on July 18, 2005
.
posted by piratebowling at 7:28 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by piratebowling at 7:28 PM on July 18, 2005
.
posted by boo_radley at 7:38 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by boo_radley at 7:38 PM on July 18, 2005
.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:45 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 7:45 PM on July 18, 2005
"the defendant's Bible-study friend"
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:49 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:49 PM on July 18, 2005
Although the defence so far has tried to shift the blame to the mother, it is possible that the father's "gay panic" defence might come into play, especially after witnesses tried to explain the father's motive.
Is there another case where that defense has been tried, let alone successfully used?
posted by Rothko at 7:58 PM on July 18, 2005
Is there another case where that defense has been tried, let alone successfully used?
posted by Rothko at 7:58 PM on July 18, 2005
If I remember my junior high field trip to the state prison correctly, criminals convicted of killing either their mothers or children have to be kept apart from the general population. If they are allowed to mix with the other inmates the other prisoners inevitably torture and kill them.
(Yes, I did go to school in the south. How did you guess?)
posted by oddman at 8:04 PM on July 18, 2005
(Yes, I did go to school in the south. How did you guess?)
posted by oddman at 8:04 PM on July 18, 2005
oddman writes "Yes, I did go to school in the south. How did you guess?"
Because you had a junior high field trip to a state prison perhaps?
posted by clevershark at 8:16 PM on July 18, 2005
Because you had a junior high field trip to a state prison perhaps?
posted by clevershark at 8:16 PM on July 18, 2005
Curse that liberal terrorist-loving media, always painting good God-fearing Americans as "irrational." The bible says that Sodomites are an Abomination, and God bless this true patriot for upholding His law, when our damned activist courts seem hellbent (pun most certainly intended!) on thwarted the love of Jesus!
posted by kafziel at 8:18 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by kafziel at 8:18 PM on July 18, 2005
I hardly ever post on MeFi, but as a father of a toddler it makes me sick to my stomach to read this shit.
Although the defence so far has tried to shift the blame to the mother, it is possible that the father's "gay panic" defence might come into play, especially after witnesses tried to explain the father's motive.
I'm sorry but whiskey tango foxtrot!? Gay panic? Defence? Motive? What sort of fucked up "motive" do you need to beat a toddler into a coma?
.
posted by pivotal at 8:34 PM on July 18, 2005
Although the defence so far has tried to shift the blame to the mother, it is possible that the father's "gay panic" defence might come into play, especially after witnesses tried to explain the father's motive.
I'm sorry but whiskey tango foxtrot!? Gay panic? Defence? Motive? What sort of fucked up "motive" do you need to beat a toddler into a coma?
.
posted by pivotal at 8:34 PM on July 18, 2005
Meanwhile, another Christianofascist gets two life sentances.
posted by Jimbob at 8:38 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by Jimbob at 8:38 PM on July 18, 2005
"'He was trying to teach him how to fight,' the boy's aunt, Shanita Powell, told the court."
If you insist on trying to teach a three year old kid to fight I suggest you see if the kid will spar with another kid around his age and size, supervising so nobody gets seriously hurt. You might also enroll the the kid in a martial arts class with (again) other kids about the same age and size. (This might have made my early life easier, by the way.)
But this murderous cretin only taught his son to suffer and die, which is eventually inevitable anyway.
I suggest torturing the said cretin slowly over a period of weeks. Sell tickets; I might buy one.
(Note that I separate torturing someone ostensibly to gain military or criminal information from this common-sense policy explicated here, intended as retribution; some evil deeds clearly call for it.)
posted by davy at 8:42 PM on July 18, 2005
If you insist on trying to teach a three year old kid to fight I suggest you see if the kid will spar with another kid around his age and size, supervising so nobody gets seriously hurt. You might also enroll the the kid in a martial arts class with (again) other kids about the same age and size. (This might have made my early life easier, by the way.)
But this murderous cretin only taught his son to suffer and die, which is eventually inevitable anyway.
I suggest torturing the said cretin slowly over a period of weeks. Sell tickets; I might buy one.
(Note that I separate torturing someone ostensibly to gain military or criminal information from this common-sense policy explicated here, intended as retribution; some evil deeds clearly call for it.)
posted by davy at 8:42 PM on July 18, 2005
Wait a sec...
How exactly does a 3 year old make this sort of "lifestyle choice"?
posted by numlok at 8:49 PM on July 18, 2005
How exactly does a 3 year old make this sort of "lifestyle choice"?
posted by numlok at 8:49 PM on July 18, 2005
That is a really sad story, so hard to think of how deranged people are now.
posted by robliberal at 8:55 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by robliberal at 8:55 PM on July 18, 2005
"It may have been that the child was not masculine enough."
If the defendant things that a 3 year old should be outwardly displaying obvious machismo, then he's got some serious problems. Problems beyond being capable of, and willing to, murder children.
It makes me wonder what fucked this guy up so bad that he'd murder his child to "save" him from turning out gay.
the defendant's Bible-study friend, testified.
I hope he wasn't taking it for credit.
posted by Jon-o at 9:04 PM on July 18, 2005
If the defendant things that a 3 year old should be outwardly displaying obvious machismo, then he's got some serious problems. Problems beyond being capable of, and willing to, murder children.
It makes me wonder what fucked this guy up so bad that he'd murder his child to "save" him from turning out gay.
the defendant's Bible-study friend, testified.
I hope he wasn't taking it for credit.
posted by Jon-o at 9:04 PM on July 18, 2005
Not to make light of this terrible crime, but it's a little eerie when The Onion comes so close to predicting it.
posted by cali at 9:34 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by cali at 9:34 PM on July 18, 2005
I seem to remember studies on young kids showed that men instintively went for "boy toys" and girls for "girl toys." Don't most young homosexuals go for girl toys? The father may have been right, sorta.
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:35 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:35 PM on July 18, 2005
Go ahead, cali, make light of this terrible crime. Nothing bad happens when you do. We don't have to be so f'kin "PC" all the time; we're not all runing for the presidency.
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:38 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by Citizen Premier at 9:38 PM on July 18, 2005
jonmc wrote: "but this asshole desreves to suffer"
I'm just correcting your spelling, but you meant: "but his asshole deserves to suffer", right?
It's interesting to see how vengeful people can be. I heartily agree that this criminal should be locked away forever, and it is likely that he will do very "hard time", which doesn't bother me terribly much. However, I don't actually wish torture or death upon him - isolation is enough.
It's possible that if I had a child of my own I'd see this differently, but I hope not - part of my job is trying to separate the vengeance impulse out of sentencing proposals. Clearly, this man is deranged. The family seems 'off', as well. I'm sure the Florida Department of Children and Families has a number of employees who feel guilty, rightfully or not.
A tragedy. I hope justice is done.
on preview - Citizen Premier - troll much?
posted by birdsquared at 9:54 PM on July 18, 2005
I'm just correcting your spelling, but you meant: "but his asshole deserves to suffer", right?
It's interesting to see how vengeful people can be. I heartily agree that this criminal should be locked away forever, and it is likely that he will do very "hard time", which doesn't bother me terribly much. However, I don't actually wish torture or death upon him - isolation is enough.
It's possible that if I had a child of my own I'd see this differently, but I hope not - part of my job is trying to separate the vengeance impulse out of sentencing proposals. Clearly, this man is deranged. The family seems 'off', as well. I'm sure the Florida Department of Children and Families has a number of employees who feel guilty, rightfully or not.
A tragedy. I hope justice is done.
on preview - Citizen Premier - troll much?
posted by birdsquared at 9:54 PM on July 18, 2005
If there were ever a reason for execution by being fed into a chipper/shredder, this is it.
birdsquared, I have a little baby boy, it amounts to pretty much the same thing. I can't begin to describe how deeply furious and vengeful this guy's behaviour makes me. This is the worst extreme form of bullying I could imagine.
posted by fenriq at 9:58 PM on July 18, 2005
birdsquared, I have a little baby boy, it amounts to pretty much the same thing. I can't begin to describe how deeply furious and vengeful this guy's behaviour makes me. This is the worst extreme form of bullying I could imagine.
posted by fenriq at 9:58 PM on July 18, 2005
Citizen Premier --
Fascinating! Thanks for sharing. I especially appreciate all those terrific links.
But what I'd really love to read are the peer-reviewed studies you've come across documenting infallible indicators of adult sexuality when observing infants and children up to 36 months. It'd be great if any of these studies had been done within the last fifty years.
Then we'd have a checklist, so bible-studying dads wouldn't end up in jail for mistakenly bludgeoning to death a toddler who may have been a bit metrosexual, yet straight, when the poor guy just wanted to butch up a baby faggot. Or kill him trying.
posted by vetiver at 10:12 PM on July 18, 2005
Fascinating! Thanks for sharing. I especially appreciate all those terrific links.
But what I'd really love to read are the peer-reviewed studies you've come across documenting infallible indicators of adult sexuality when observing infants and children up to 36 months. It'd be great if any of these studies had been done within the last fifty years.
Then we'd have a checklist, so bible-studying dads wouldn't end up in jail for mistakenly bludgeoning to death a toddler who may have been a bit metrosexual, yet straight, when the poor guy just wanted to butch up a baby faggot. Or kill him trying.
posted by vetiver at 10:12 PM on July 18, 2005
vetiver, you certainly understand the purpose of science!
But in a bit more seriousness, yes you're right I didn't provide proper documentation for my claim, but I didn't say I was absolutely certain. I was hoping someone else had more info on the tests, and we could discuss it.
Maybe I was a bit harsh, and maybe I seem like a troller--but I'm one of those guys who doesn't care much about distant tragedies, because they're the stuff of life, and because there's SO MANY OF THEM. I can't cry for everybody, so pretty much I reserve my tears for friends and family. And if we posted every horrible thing that happened to a baby on metafilter, well, we wouldn't have room for much else.
Don't worry, I see that these ideas are unpopular and pissing people off, so I'll shut up about them now.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:32 PM on July 18, 2005
But in a bit more seriousness, yes you're right I didn't provide proper documentation for my claim, but I didn't say I was absolutely certain. I was hoping someone else had more info on the tests, and we could discuss it.
Maybe I was a bit harsh, and maybe I seem like a troller--but I'm one of those guys who doesn't care much about distant tragedies, because they're the stuff of life, and because there's SO MANY OF THEM. I can't cry for everybody, so pretty much I reserve my tears for friends and family. And if we posted every horrible thing that happened to a baby on metafilter, well, we wouldn't have room for much else.
Don't worry, I see that these ideas are unpopular and pissing people off, so I'll shut up about them now.
posted by Citizen Premier at 10:32 PM on July 18, 2005
Ahem, Gender Shock by Phyllis Burke spends an entire chapter documenting the feminine boy project at UCLA that experimented with aversion therapy (nice name for emotional and physical abuse) based on the rather slim chance that the kids might grow up transgendered.
Didn't work.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:32 PM on July 18, 2005
Didn't work.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:32 PM on July 18, 2005
So is this one of those cases where if the man were any other religion, beating the kid for being (religious taboo), it'd be sensationalized on Fox?
Personally, I would want this man to view a video of himself, beating his own child to death, every single day. Prison time only to protect society from this man, but the daily viewing as punishment. Perhaps a poster of Jesus, captioned "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"
No assrape. No "hard time". Not even physical punishment. Just imprisonment for the good of society, and a constant reminder of his crime.
posted by Saydur at 10:36 PM on July 18, 2005
Personally, I would want this man to view a video of himself, beating his own child to death, every single day. Prison time only to protect society from this man, but the daily viewing as punishment. Perhaps a poster of Jesus, captioned "THOU SHALT NOT KILL"
No assrape. No "hard time". Not even physical punishment. Just imprisonment for the good of society, and a constant reminder of his crime.
posted by Saydur at 10:36 PM on July 18, 2005
Whoops, overeager.
It didn't work, because few of those kids would have turned out transgender or gay anyway.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:38 PM on July 18, 2005
It didn't work, because few of those kids would have turned out transgender or gay anyway.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:38 PM on July 18, 2005
The spread of the "Persons convicted of ______ will ultimately be raped and tortured in prison" meme is really bizarre. How the hell did it become so mainstream to condone prison rape as extra punishment?
People who assure others that the bad man in the news will ultimately be raped and tortured in prison should ultimately be raped and tortured in prison.
[/obvious]
posted by blasdelf at 10:44 PM on July 18, 2005
People who assure others that the bad man in the news will ultimately be raped and tortured in prison should ultimately be raped and tortured in prison.
[/obvious]
posted by blasdelf at 10:44 PM on July 18, 2005
I'm one of those guys who doesn't care much about distant tragedies, because they're the stuff of life
Yet you're one of those tough guys who care enough to open your fat mouth in this thread.
I can't cry for everybody, so pretty much I reserve my tears for friends and family
Yet you felt it necessary to stop in here and poop over the rest of us with your superiority complex.
Don't worry, I see that these ideas are unpopular and pissing people off, so I'll shut up about them now.
Ah, the wounded-victim ploy — classic trolling maneuver.
posted by Rothko at 10:47 PM on July 18, 2005
Yet you're one of those tough guys who care enough to open your fat mouth in this thread.
I can't cry for everybody, so pretty much I reserve my tears for friends and family
Yet you felt it necessary to stop in here and poop over the rest of us with your superiority complex.
Don't worry, I see that these ideas are unpopular and pissing people off, so I'll shut up about them now.
Ah, the wounded-victim ploy — classic trolling maneuver.
posted by Rothko at 10:47 PM on July 18, 2005
Doug - the fact that he would likely suffer by either being in protective custody for all of his incarceration, or suffer at the hands of fellow inmates, is something that wouldn't bother me terribly much, but I wouldn't relish it, or require it, or hope for it.
Saydur - your idea works for me.
Citizen Premier - what possible difference would it make it the father WERE correct in predicting the future sexual orientation of his child? And a tragedy is only worthy of empathy if it happens to a known entity? Nice island you've got for yourself, there. /end feeding the troll
posted by birdsquared at 10:54 PM on July 18, 2005
Saydur - your idea works for me.
Citizen Premier - what possible difference would it make it the father WERE correct in predicting the future sexual orientation of his child? And a tragedy is only worthy of empathy if it happens to a known entity? Nice island you've got for yourself, there. /end feeding the troll
posted by birdsquared at 10:54 PM on July 18, 2005
I can't imagine what goes on in the head of a guy who does something this heinous.
Nor would I want to.
posted by clevershark at 11:12 PM on July 18, 2005
Nor would I want to.
posted by clevershark at 11:12 PM on July 18, 2005
Citizen Premier --
Yes! I do understand the purpose of science!
I also understand the purpose of online discussion, inasmuch as there is one, and that is to share knowledge, or discoveries, or informed opinion, or amusing commentary.
You have, by your own admission, none of that to offer this particular discussion. You have, by your own admission, inadequate synaptic wattage to imagine a situation beyond your own blinkered vision.
I say this with all due respect -- piss off, wanker.
posted by vetiver at 11:27 PM on July 18, 2005
Yes! I do understand the purpose of science!
I also understand the purpose of online discussion, inasmuch as there is one, and that is to share knowledge, or discoveries, or informed opinion, or amusing commentary.
You have, by your own admission, none of that to offer this particular discussion. You have, by your own admission, inadequate synaptic wattage to imagine a situation beyond your own blinkered vision.
I say this with all due respect -- piss off, wanker.
posted by vetiver at 11:27 PM on July 18, 2005
So is this one of those cases where if the man were any other religion, beating the kid for being (religious taboo), it'd be sensationalized on Fox?
I think this demands a "gay hysteria" special on Fox (Christian angle or not).
what possible difference would it make it the father WERE correct in predicting the future sexual orientation of his child?
Not taking a side here, but the poster pretty much guaranteed someone putting forward this angle by saying "because of an irrational fear". As usual, it's better for posters to stick to the facts. As you say, it matters not a bit whether the father was correct or not. So it belongs in the discussion not at all.
posted by dreamsign at 11:28 PM on July 18, 2005
I think this demands a "gay hysteria" special on Fox (Christian angle or not).
what possible difference would it make it the father WERE correct in predicting the future sexual orientation of his child?
Not taking a side here, but the poster pretty much guaranteed someone putting forward this angle by saying "because of an irrational fear". As usual, it's better for posters to stick to the facts. As you say, it matters not a bit whether the father was correct or not. So it belongs in the discussion not at all.
posted by dreamsign at 11:28 PM on July 18, 2005
on post-preview: that's kinda fucked up.
Like it wouldn't have been horribly wrong if it hadn't been an irrational fear?
posted by dreamsign at 11:31 PM on July 18, 2005
Like it wouldn't have been horribly wrong if it hadn't been an irrational fear?
posted by dreamsign at 11:31 PM on July 18, 2005
Maybe this wasn't there earlier, but there is now a Gay.com ad right next to the article. That can't be an accident.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:38 PM on July 18, 2005
posted by Sangermaine at 11:38 PM on July 18, 2005
This is disgusting, and it's shocking that relatives were so apathetic.
Also, it says the boy was admitted to the hospital following abuse in 2002. Is that a typo? If not, what the hell was this kid doing back in his parents' custody if he was previously abused as an infant?!?
Unbelievable.
posted by sellout at 12:06 AM on July 19, 2005
Also, it says the boy was admitted to the hospital following abuse in 2002. Is that a typo? If not, what the hell was this kid doing back in his parents' custody if he was previously abused as an infant?!?
Unbelievable.
posted by sellout at 12:06 AM on July 19, 2005
This is disgusting, and it's shocking that relatives were so apathetic.
Also, it says the boy was admitted to the hospital following abuse in 2002. Is that a typo? If not, what the hell was this kid doing back in his parents' custody if he was previously abused as an infant?!?
Unbelievable.
posted by sellout at 12:07 AM on July 19, 2005
Also, it says the boy was admitted to the hospital following abuse in 2002. Is that a typo? If not, what the hell was this kid doing back in his parents' custody if he was previously abused as an infant?!?
Unbelievable.
posted by sellout at 12:07 AM on July 19, 2005
This is sick, gay panic aside. This poor child was beaten for not being macho enough, which probably caused the child to be frightened and meek and less macho and therefore beaten more. What the hell is wrong with people like this? And how on earth do the lawyers think a "gay panic" defense is in any way a good idea?
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:14 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by [insert clever name here] at 12:14 AM on July 19, 2005
Gay Panic, of course that had to be it.
posted by Dean Keaton at 12:52 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Dean Keaton at 12:52 AM on July 19, 2005
"Well, we could argue that he was possessed by mind control rays... Or that he had eaten too many twinkies that morning..."
"Wait, why did he kill the kid again?"
"God only knows. He says he thinks the kid 'looked gay.'"
"So he killed him?"
"Yeah."
"Go with the twinky defense."
posted by klangklangston at 12:57 AM on July 19, 2005
"Wait, why did he kill the kid again?"
"God only knows. He says he thinks the kid 'looked gay.'"
"So he killed him?"
"Yeah."
"Go with the twinky defense."
posted by klangklangston at 12:57 AM on July 19, 2005
Why are lawyers going with "gay panic"?
Wins elections.
posted by telstar at 12:59 AM on July 19, 2005
Wins elections.
posted by telstar at 12:59 AM on July 19, 2005
You would think family members or the "bible study friend" or a neighbor or someone would have reported this, or at the very least talked some sense into this guy.This is projection at its worst.
posted by Devils Slide at 1:56 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Devils Slide at 1:56 AM on July 19, 2005
As the father of a terrific but often demanding and sometimes frustrating two year old boy, I can see how one might sometimes lose control and swat the kid. I just don't understand repeated abuse, though, I guess because I wasn't abused.
I also don't see what good it will do anyone to treat the abuser less than humanely. Yes, we have to punish him, and to keep other children safe from him, but we don't have to enjoy it.
Ever since my little boy was born, I find myself literally nauseated about stories like this, when before I was just saddened. There must be some kind of hormonal change that goes on when you become a dad.
posted by surlycat at 2:02 AM on July 19, 2005
I also don't see what good it will do anyone to treat the abuser less than humanely. Yes, we have to punish him, and to keep other children safe from him, but we don't have to enjoy it.
Ever since my little boy was born, I find myself literally nauseated about stories like this, when before I was just saddened. There must be some kind of hormonal change that goes on when you become a dad.
posted by surlycat at 2:02 AM on July 19, 2005
Right before I read the article in the post, I'd read this article. Which I'd thought was absurd when i read it. Now i feel nauseated instead.
posted by Kololo at 2:11 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Kololo at 2:11 AM on July 19, 2005
There must be some kind of hormonal change that goes on when you become a dad.
Did we read the same article?
posted by Doug at 2:43 AM on July 19, 2005
Did we read the same article?
posted by Doug at 2:43 AM on July 19, 2005
Wow... A parent beats his own kid to death for being "too gay" and no-one has suggested that he might me a psychiatric case?
I've not read the article (I'm at work) but I'd have thought that has to be a pretty likely option and a pretty likely line of defense.
posted by twine42 at 2:52 AM on July 19, 2005
I've not read the article (I'm at work) but I'd have thought that has to be a pretty likely option and a pretty likely line of defense.
posted by twine42 at 2:52 AM on July 19, 2005
Florida. Fucking Florida again. Makes me sick.
In Florida you can beat toddlers, steal cuban kids from their fathers, steal elections, and screw dying people.
Who is the Governor? Oh, him, the one with the crack-head daughter and the wife that like to shop a bit too much.
Welcome to the next US president. Makes me friggin sick.
posted by zaelic at 3:11 AM on July 19, 2005
In Florida you can beat toddlers, steal cuban kids from their fathers, steal elections, and screw dying people.
Who is the Governor? Oh, him, the one with the crack-head daughter and the wife that like to shop a bit too much.
Welcome to the next US president. Makes me friggin sick.
posted by zaelic at 3:11 AM on July 19, 2005
Can we get verification from a neutral source? I'm not suggesting that this dad (Ronnie Dobbs) wasn't among the worst parents ever, but it sounds like the mother was an abuser, too. And not out of gay fears.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:19 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:19 AM on July 19, 2005
And a jury would probably shoot down such a defence, Winfield said.
"Juries in even the most conservative states reject gay panic as a defence for murder."
In this case, it is even likelier to fail, he continued. "There can be no good reason for beating a child to death."
So, in the US, there can be cases were "gay panic" can be a defence for anything at all? Am I understanding this correctly?
posted by uncle harold at 5:30 AM on July 19, 2005
"Juries in even the most conservative states reject gay panic as a defence for murder."
In this case, it is even likelier to fail, he continued. "There can be no good reason for beating a child to death."
So, in the US, there can be cases were "gay panic" can be a defence for anything at all? Am I understanding this correctly?
posted by uncle harold at 5:30 AM on July 19, 2005
Gay Panic? What a sissy.
posted by srboisvert at 5:57 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by srboisvert at 5:57 AM on July 19, 2005
Verification of what, MC? The whole story?
The Tampa Tribune seems to have the most regular stories. It seems to me that another crime is being committed that so few sources outside the gay advocacy community are picking this up.
posted by spock at 6:00 AM on July 19, 2005
The Tampa Tribune seems to have the most regular stories. It seems to me that another crime is being committed that so few sources outside the gay advocacy community are picking this up.
posted by spock at 6:00 AM on July 19, 2005
sounds like the mother was an abuser, too. And not out of gay fears.
She is also being charged - from the other article on this posted in a previous thread:
She is also being charged - from the other article on this posted in a previous thread:
She is charged with felony child neglect and faces a maximum of 15 years in prison.Other interesting bit from that article:
She testified that she witnessed Ronnie Paris Jr. being rough with the child several times, including once when he "slammed' the baby against a wall because the child was vomiting.
But she said she didn't take the baby to the hospital immediately after the incidents.
"I just didn't want my baby to get tooken away from me,' she said. "I thought he was going to make it.'
Kenn Littman, an assistant public defender, asked Nysheerah Paris why she never reported the alleged abuse.
"You thought that the cops were gonna put this on you if you didn't say anything?' Littman asked.
"Yes,' she said.
The prosecution's witnesses portrayed Ronnie Paris Jr. as a man who wanted more of his wife's attention, who complained about not having enough sex since the child was around and who openly questioned whether the boy was his.posted by funambulist at 6:03 AM on July 19, 2005
So, in the US, there can be cases were "gay panic" can be a defence for anything at all? Am I understanding this correctly?
uncle harold: I don't know, but my understanding is that the defense can try and use whatever crazy angle they like, doesn't mean it will be accepted.
But yeah, it's crazy that they're even trying...
posted by funambulist at 6:08 AM on July 19, 2005
uncle harold: I don't know, but my understanding is that the defense can try and use whatever crazy angle they like, doesn't mean it will be accepted.
But yeah, it's crazy that they're even trying...
posted by funambulist at 6:08 AM on July 19, 2005
I've always thought that people who commit physical crimes against another like murder or rape should be forced to sit in jail the rest of their lives with a photo of the person they violated in their cell (behind plexiglass so it can't be defaced). Nothing else. No television, no fun things. Just a bed, a toilet, and that picture.
posted by agregoli at 7:14 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by agregoli at 7:14 AM on July 19, 2005
agregoli, only people capable of empathy would be affected by such a punishment. Many murders and rapists lack that capacity.
posted by jonmc at 7:35 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by jonmc at 7:35 AM on July 19, 2005
I'm not a father, but I am an uncle of a little girl who's almost two.
Fathers protect. Fathers educate. Fathers do not kill their children. The article said he questioned whether or not he was the boy's father. His actions prove that he's correct: he was simply a donor of DNA.
I think of myself as a moderate; I agree with some things that are conservative, and some things that are liberal. And I feel that a man who kills a child, for ANY reason at all, has abdicated his right to life due to what they call on the crime TV shows 'depraved indifference to human life'. He cannot be trusted to properly treat any other human being. And yes, I think there was a serious failure at the Department of Children and Families, but at the same time we've seen in past cases that there seems to be an endemic problem there that needs addressing, probably from the ground up instead of from the top down.
posted by mephron at 8:02 AM on July 19, 2005
Fathers protect. Fathers educate. Fathers do not kill their children. The article said he questioned whether or not he was the boy's father. His actions prove that he's correct: he was simply a donor of DNA.
I think of myself as a moderate; I agree with some things that are conservative, and some things that are liberal. And I feel that a man who kills a child, for ANY reason at all, has abdicated his right to life due to what they call on the crime TV shows 'depraved indifference to human life'. He cannot be trusted to properly treat any other human being. And yes, I think there was a serious failure at the Department of Children and Families, but at the same time we've seen in past cases that there seems to be an endemic problem there that needs addressing, probably from the ground up instead of from the top down.
posted by mephron at 8:02 AM on July 19, 2005
On the topic of the mother who didn't report the abuse: if he was beating his kid in hopes of imposing his version of a masculine ideal, you can bet his wife was getting abused too - men who value Masculinity Uber Alles tend to want their women to fall into a passive feminine ideal as well, which usually involves beating the crap out of them whenever they show an independant thought or action. Battered women have been taught to be incredibly passive, accepting horrible things being done to them and their children, because they've simply had all the fight beaten out of them. They know they have no control, and have given up... so, as hard as it is to think that a mother could watch her child being beaten and say nothing, it's a good bet that she'd been clubbed into absolute docility long before.
posted by Billegible at 8:28 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Billegible at 8:28 AM on July 19, 2005
In 2002, the Florida Department of Children and Families placed the boy in protective custody after he had been admitted to the hospital repeatedly for vomiting, the Tampa Tribune reported.
3 years ago. Presumably, the beatings started when he was days old. Really sick.
posted by bardic at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2005
3 years ago. Presumably, the beatings started when he was days old. Really sick.
posted by bardic at 8:43 AM on July 19, 2005
So let me get this right - the father was helping the kid by hitting him in order to "teach him how to fight" because he thought he'd be gay? That's the defense? Couldn't the prosecution use this to add years to his sentence by claiming it was a hate crime?
posted by Moral Animal at 9:48 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by Moral Animal at 9:48 AM on July 19, 2005
uncle harold- while ultimately unsuccessful, here is a case where it was raised in Canada. Note that 'gay panic" was raised as the defence of provocation, which, if accepted, would reduce murder to manslaughter, not lead to an acquittal.
dreamsign - it wasn't the poster who used the words "irrational fear" - those were taken directly from the linked article.
Moral Animal - I think that framing this as a hate crime is a fabulous idea.
posted by birdsquared at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2005
dreamsign - it wasn't the poster who used the words "irrational fear" - those were taken directly from the linked article.
Moral Animal - I think that framing this as a hate crime is a fabulous idea.
posted by birdsquared at 10:05 AM on July 19, 2005
change "used the words" to "selected the words"
posted by birdsquared at 10:07 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by birdsquared at 10:07 AM on July 19, 2005
I am decidedly anti capital punishment, but something happens to me when I hear about things like this. This story makes me feel crazy, like all I can think of to do is destroy this guy. Just erase him. He needs to be gone. I suffered abuse when I was very little--nothing this extreme by a long shot-- but I can remember it, and it allows me to imagine how this child might have felt: the fear, the powerlessness, the confusion and heartbreak that someone who is supposed to love and care for you is intentionally hurting you. Ronnie Paris never knew anything else. It's crushing. I can't think of what true justice would be in a situation like this. The word has no meaning.
posted by apis mellifera at 10:08 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by apis mellifera at 10:08 AM on July 19, 2005
A version of the so-called "gay panic defense" was used (unsuccessfully) by at least one of the attorneys for the men who killed Matthew Shepard.
The fact that it's been used (in other cases involving violence against pre-op transsexuals, etc) or has a name doesn't make it any more legit than the "twinkie defense", of course.
posted by availablelight at 10:18 AM on July 19, 2005
The fact that it's been used (in other cases involving violence against pre-op transsexuals, etc) or has a name doesn't make it any more legit than the "twinkie defense", of course.
posted by availablelight at 10:18 AM on July 19, 2005
Oh--and it's usually used in cases where a man is supposedly horrified that he is in "danger" of inadvertently/unwillingly participating in a homosexual act and lashes out in the heat of the moment (a twisted version of the "crime of passion" defense). Don't think that counts for some knucklehead who thinks his toddler is a punk because it scares him when his father hits him.
posted by availablelight at 10:21 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by availablelight at 10:21 AM on July 19, 2005
Well, I think the worst part of the "gay panic" defense is that it relies on trying to find one person in the jury who shares the defendant's bigotry.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2005
agregoli, only people capable of empathy would be affected by such a punishment. Many murders and rapists lack that capacity.
jonmc, I'm aware of that (duh, why did they rape or kill in the first place - they can't have much empathy) and I don't care. The life in prison squashes their rights (it's sufficient for me that they have no freedom to touch anyone ever again) and after 30, 40, 50 years in prison staring at that picture, maybe they'll learn some empathy.
posted by agregoli at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2005
jonmc, I'm aware of that (duh, why did they rape or kill in the first place - they can't have much empathy) and I don't care. The life in prison squashes their rights (it's sufficient for me that they have no freedom to touch anyone ever again) and after 30, 40, 50 years in prison staring at that picture, maybe they'll learn some empathy.
posted by agregoli at 10:48 AM on July 19, 2005
Here in Michigan, it is policy to return abused kids to biological family as quickly as possible, unless major bad stuff can be proven beyond a doubt. I wouldn't be surprised if that is policy in Florida, too. It is called "supporting families" or some such crap. It leads to dead children here, too.
posted by QIbHom at 11:01 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by QIbHom at 11:01 AM on July 19, 2005
Under Florida law, hate-crime enhancements don’t apply when the defendant is accused of murder, which is a capital felony with a mandatory minimum sentence of life without parole.
posted by hilker at 11:04 AM on July 19, 2005
posted by hilker at 11:04 AM on July 19, 2005
jesus christ!
no really, i'm praying right now.
dear jesus on the fucking cross would you please come down and help your followers out.
they love you lord , but some of them don't know what love is, please come down and put the missing part in them. you know the part that makes them human.
your (sick to his stomach from watching people who call them selves "christians" out do the devil.) son, nola.
posted by nola at 11:15 AM on July 19, 2005
no really, i'm praying right now.
dear jesus on the fucking cross would you please come down and help your followers out.
they love you lord , but some of them don't know what love is, please come down and put the missing part in them. you know the part that makes them human.
your (sick to his stomach from watching people who call them selves "christians" out do the devil.) son, nola.
posted by nola at 11:15 AM on July 19, 2005
Any defendant can use any defense he and his lawyers want to use. I can throw knives at people out of my living room window and claim I did so because they are gay or because I'm gay or because I ate too much sugar or because spinach makes me angry. The trick is convincing a jury that whatever circumstances you were in were such that you aren't responsible for your actions.
If a "gay panic" defense actually works for a man who beat his toddler son to death, I am officially checking out of this life and hoping for a better one next time around.
In some states--Illinois, for one--the mother would also be charged with first degree murder because she knowingly allowed the child to remain in the care of his abuser. The theory is that she is so complicit in the child's abuse and subsequent death that she might as well have been abusing him herself. Apparently Florida doesn't do that.
posted by jennyb at 11:39 AM on July 19, 2005
If a "gay panic" defense actually works for a man who beat his toddler son to death, I am officially checking out of this life and hoping for a better one next time around.
In some states--Illinois, for one--the mother would also be charged with first degree murder because she knowingly allowed the child to remain in the care of his abuser. The theory is that she is so complicit in the child's abuse and subsequent death that she might as well have been abusing him herself. Apparently Florida doesn't do that.
posted by jennyb at 11:39 AM on July 19, 2005
I imagine that more news outlets would be picking up a story with the following lead:
posted by spock at 12:40 PM on July 19, 2005
A gay man has appeared in a US court accused of killing his adopted baby son because of an irrational fear that he would become straight.
posted by spock at 12:40 PM on July 19, 2005
Just as with the van Gogh killer, a seriously unhinged and defective individual has grasped something as a vehicle for distributing their desire to maim.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
posted by CynicalKnight at 12:58 PM on July 19, 2005
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
posted by CynicalKnight at 12:58 PM on July 19, 2005
this was my first post. i appreciate the great responses and comments. there is no question that this was an abominable act. i first saw this on gay.com three or four days before i actually posted it. i was thinking that maybe, just maybe, the mainstream news media would pick up this horrific story. boy, was i wrong! i should know better by now. the media can talk about the missing girl in aruba, laci peterson, chandra levy and the many others that go missing/dead. for some reason the media stayed away from this (too awful or is it teh gay?), so that's why it was posted from gay.com...and not a 'neutral' source... whatever that is.
posted by brandz at 4:27 PM on July 19, 2005
posted by brandz at 4:27 PM on July 19, 2005
I think the calls to use his "gay panic" defense to charge him with a hate crime are brilliant and I hope he gets another life sentence piled on top.
But I'd still feed him feet first into a chipper/shredder and be done with him.
posted by fenriq at 4:38 PM on July 19, 2005
But I'd still feed him feet first into a chipper/shredder and be done with him.
posted by fenriq at 4:38 PM on July 19, 2005
"Let the Spanish keep it, it’s a shithole," we said, but you had to have your fucking orange juice.
posted by ackeber at 11:26 PM on July 20, 2005
posted by ackeber at 11:26 PM on July 20, 2005
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posted by -harlequin- at 7:04 PM on July 18, 2005