Restoring the old order

November 27, 2005 5:41 PM

Abuse in Iraq Now Worse Then Under Saddam 'People are doing the same as [in] Saddam's time and worse,' [Iraq Prime Minister] Ayad Allawi told The Observer. 'It is an appropriate comparison. People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same things.' Let's see ... no WMDs, no al-Queda ties, and now this. I'm so glad that we are making Iraq a better place.
posted by robhuddles (69 comments total)

Holy shit, thanks for pointing this out!
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:48 PM on November 27, 2005

The most surprising thing is that this actually surprises anyone.
posted by nightchrome at 5:52 PM on November 27, 2005

Come on, everyone, if we just BELIEVE, it will all turn out the way we want. If you believe in Bush, clap clap clap your hands. If we can clap loud enough, all the fairy tales George believes in will come true!
posted by tgyg at 5:54 PM on November 27, 2005

Is this the part where we get welcomed as liberators, or did I miss that?
posted by fatbobsmith at 5:57 PM on November 27, 2005

Seems like someone didn't get a plastic turkey in their stocking this year.
posted by cytherea at 6:03 PM on November 27, 2005

Holy shit, thanks for pointing this out!

He's not pointing it out, he's announcing how great he is for figuring it out.

Newsflash, robhuddles, we know the situation's all fucked up, but you get a gold star for noticing.
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on November 27, 2005

In other news, the mercs that the U.S. employs to keep the casualty figures down are keeping busy by filming themselves shooting random Iraqi civilians for fun. Your tax dollars at work.
posted by jellicle at 6:09 PM on November 27, 2005

Are any of the fake reasons for going into Iraq still operative anymore?
posted by empath at 6:22 PM on November 27, 2005

robhuddles, your attempt to rewrite history is dispicable and irresponsible!

/cheney
posted by pieisexactlythree at 6:26 PM on November 27, 2005

My war-supporting friends have been silent or moody on other forums for the past few months. There is no debate anymore, it's one-sided rubbing noses in the mess. After a while it's akin to abuse. The war goes on..
posted by stbalbach at 6:27 PM on November 27, 2005

The new spin is turning out to be that the Republicans are going to withdraw next year, and it was their idea all along and it's so nice that the Democrats are finally going along with it.

I'm not joking.
posted by empath at 6:37 PM on November 27, 2005

I can only hope that somehow the decision is made to retreat. To hell with "finishing what we started," this is another Vietnam.
posted by letitrain at 6:37 PM on November 27, 2005

Raise your hand if you knew (as did the State Dept, the CIA, etc. etc.) that this "war" was going to turn out to increase the suffering of the Iraqi people beyond what they had suffered in a decade of sanctions.

Perle, Wolfowich, Cheney, Bush, .....no hands.

Watchers of FOX....no hands.

Propaganda has turned us to the Dark Side.

I believe in democracy, but...Capitalism has trumped democracy in the USA,
posted by kozad at 6:38 PM on November 27, 2005

I just knew someone was going to FPP this.

While I agree completely with the sentiment, this title is extremely misleading. The actual quotes in question are:

"People are remembering the days of Saddam. These were the precise reasons that we fought Saddam and now we are seeing the same thing."
...and...
"People are doing the same as Saddam's time and worse," he said. "It is an appropriate comparison."

The abuse itself is as bad or worse, but the amount is not referred to. So, for example, you could say that the violence against prisoners is worse than that of Atila the Hun, even if Mr. Hun actually committed more violence (in raw numbers).

I'm not trying to defend the administration at all, and it may very well be that the abuses are more prevelant in number than under Saddam's regime (though, reasonably, I still think we've got a couple of years). My real point is that this is nothing more than Allawi trying to gain some popularity with the Sunnis, and is in no way indicative of any kind of desire to actually, you know, change the policy.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:40 PM on November 27, 2005

Clap if you believe in fairies.
many in Iraq call for the swift execution of Hussein.
posted by longsleeves at 6:42 PM on November 27, 2005

kozad, I didn't think it would be THIS bad. I didn't think it would be good, I never thought the outcome would be something we'd like, but the outcome has been at least twice as bad as my most pessimistic projections.

I made the fundamental mistake of assuming the current administration was competent. Bad, bad mistake.

On preview: I was thinking about this the other day, waiting for someone to come up with the "numbers argument", as in, "It's not as bad as it was in Saddam's time, because fewer people are being tortured to death now."

I'm sorry, but I think that kind of moral relativism doesn't work. Some things are infinitely bad, no matter how many times they happen. One person being tortured to death under our watch is just as bad as thousands.
posted by Malor at 6:44 PM on November 27, 2005

Holy shit, thanks for pointing this out!
posted by mr_crash_davis

Indeed I couldn't believe my very eyes ! Random useless shootings, flagrant abuse of authority , utter disregard for human life while pretending to be in a benevolent humanitarian mission, oil wells.....damn it's like Texas over there in Iraq.
posted by elpapacito at 6:44 PM on November 27, 2005

dammit! I hit submit too soon. I was going to add.... "To be fair, it's probably not the US committing the atrocities they're talking about here. Our abuses have been plenty bad, but the ones in question here are being committed by the Shia, not by us."
posted by Malor at 6:46 PM on November 27, 2005

That's 'Mr The Hun', if you don't mind...
posted by pompomtom at 6:46 PM on November 27, 2005

I look for Cheney to retire for 'health reasons', followed by his taking ALL the blame for dragging Bush into this mess. George never makes a mistake, it was all Dick's fault.
posted by tgyg at 6:47 PM on November 27, 2005

Well, the most cogent argument against unilateral action is Iraq was always this: yes, Saddam was a tyrant and getting him to answer for his deeds was desirable, but if you're going to do that, you better have a workable plan on how to replace him with something better. We obviously didn't and we're seeing the consequences, sadly.
posted by jonmc at 6:48 PM on November 27, 2005

Write your congressman today!
posted by ab'd al'Hazred at 6:59 PM on November 27, 2005

The video Jellicle links to saddens me to no end. If this was a Canadian mission there would be hell to pay.
posted by furtive at 7:20 PM on November 27, 2005

Allawi added: 'Iraq is the centrepiece of this region. If things go wrong, neither Europe nor the US will be safe.'

And,

The intervention by one of Iraq's most prominent political figures promises to turn human rights abuses into a key election issue.

So this is political rhetoric by a former Prime Minister. I guess he has nothing to gain by making alarmist statements.

There may yet be, furtive.
And what elpapacito said.
posted by geekyguy at 7:30 PM on November 27, 2005

Our boys at work..
WMP Quicktime
Via here

It doesn't look like you have to be doing much of anything to get e death sentance around those parts.
posted by Balisong at 7:31 PM on November 27, 2005

You think this is bad, wait until the U.S. pulls out and Iraq falls under a Taliban-style rule.
posted by orange swan at 8:07 PM on November 27, 2005

We can see a hint of the next stage of MeFi's Iraq chitchat in jonmc's post.

It's the stage where even those US Americans who recognized the lies from the very start, and were against the war from the very start, become hostile to "yet another" report of the USA's mis-doings over in Iraq.

Call it a variation of the Stockholm Syndrome.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:07 PM on November 27, 2005

what? I was just a mite miffed at the self-righteousness. I thought I mellowed nicely in my second comment.
posted by jonmc at 8:09 PM on November 27, 2005

I think they are purported to be British contract workers (I tried to verify a bit more by discerning their accents but couldn't make it out through the few words / music).

It takes a special kind of human being to do what they do for fun.
posted by thanatogenous at 8:11 PM on November 27, 2005

You think this is bad, wait until the U.S. pulls out and Iraq falls under a Taliban-style rule.

A taliban style rule is unrealistic. A puppet of Iran, more realistic.
posted by j-urb at 8:37 PM on November 27, 2005

It takes a special kind of human being to do what they do for fun.

Ummmm well no.
posted by j-urb at 8:40 PM on November 27, 2005

Meanwhile, in Afghanistan...
posted by homunculus at 8:47 PM on November 27, 2005

Col. Jim Yonts, spokesman for the U.S. military in Afghanistan, said the Taliban is resorting to suicide attacks and remote-controlled bombings in urban areas "out of desperation" as it continues to lose ground -- and men -- to international forces in the mountains and other rural areas.

One could say they're in their last throes.. Hmm... Now, where did I hear that before?...
posted by c13 at 8:51 PM on November 27, 2005

Write your congressman today!

Dear Mr. H******* :
Thank you for contacting my office regarding habeas corpus rights for detainees.
I appreciate your taking the time to bring your views on this important matter to my attention. As a United States Senator, it is essential that I be kept fully informed on the issues of concern to my constituents. Be assured that I will keep your thoughts on this issue in mind when the Senate considers this or related issues during the 109th Congress.
Again, thank you for writing. The concerns of my constituents are of great importance to me, and I rely on you and other Pennsylvanians to inform me of your views. Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact my office or visit my website at http://specter.senate.gov. Thank you again for writing.
Blah blah blah blah. I'm utterly useless.
Sincerely,
Arlen Specter
posted by Jon-o at 9:13 PM on November 27, 2005

For fuck's sake. How many corners can you turn in an infinite loop?
posted by aaronetc at 9:17 PM on November 27, 2005

Mission accomplished?
posted by NewBornHippy at 9:28 PM on November 27, 2005

Arlen Specter is almost as useless as Santorum. Almost.
posted by Rothko at 9:39 PM on November 27, 2005

orange swan, excuse fucking me, but I'm fast losing my natural reluctance to encouraging the Kurdish Peshmerga from ravaging the Sunni area. Show me how/what the American forces could do to investigate this kind of thing, not speaking the language, not having the hearts and minds of people who might lead them to the perps. Why are neocons so hard over the idea of propping up a country that the Brits drew arbitrarily, irrespective of its inhabitants?

I don't get it. Half the south if fucking proud of it's role in the war of northern aggression. Civil wars are terrible and horrible, but we've put this country on the path to one, and the longer we linger, the better armed and prepared each faction will be to attack the other when we do finally leave.
posted by Busithoth at 9:42 PM on November 27, 2005

Well, that should have you all pulling your wangs for a while.
posted by HTuttle at 9:42 PM on November 27, 2005

Well, that should have you all pulling your wangs for a while.

Without irony, you wrote this while pulling your own wang for such an amazingly clever comment.
posted by Rothko at 9:47 PM on November 27, 2005

HTuttle writes "Well, that should have you all pulling your wangs for a while."


This doesn't matter to you, because you're not serving in Iraq and won't be among the US servicemen blown apart by suicide bombers recruited from the Iraqi young men who will blame America for fostering this climate of abuse, right?

I'm sure our troops appreciate your "support".

Do you also plan to not be a US resident when some of these young Iraqi men come over here to "thank" us at home, smart guy?
posted by orthogonality at 10:00 PM on November 27, 2005

There's yet another tagline in there somewhere. Don't look at me, though.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:02 PM on November 27, 2005

Okay, a reality check.

I think the war is an abomination, a stillborn fetus of a debacle. I think that blame can be laid squarely at the feet of the administration who lied, believed absurdly stupid promises from a known huckster, then tarred the names of anyone who questioned their silly-ass propoganda.

Our abuses are worse NOT because they are quantatatively worse (as best as we can see, this is simply not the case) or because they are qualatatively worse (afaik, there's no policy of chopping off hands or killing children of dissidents, etc). Rather, our abuses are worse because we have put ourself in a placeof moral and ethical responsibility. As conservatives might say, it's the difference between Joe Average getting a blow job from an intern, and The President Of The United States getting a blow job from an intern.

The vary nature of what makes the United States good, and whole, and strong, is corrupted and cheapened when we play the 'times are tough, gotta break a few eggs to keep democracy safe' game.
posted by verb at 10:04 PM on November 27, 2005

verb, while I generally agree with your argument, I don't think the blame lies squarely at the feet of the administration. Certainly they're the ones who engineered it, lying and cheating on their way to killing, but it was very clear to me and many other people that they were so lying and using 9/11 to leverage their way into a war for profit, resources, and political power.

The blame lies with me for not doing more than write a few letters and go to a few protests. It lies with the stupid fucking idiots who went along with these criminals, the assholes who voted for them, the electorate that allowed them to steal the elections, and the rest of the world for not standing up more forcefully to them when they launched their criminal exercise.

I used to wonder how this kind of horror could happen in a country, how people could allow it to happen, and I guess we all know first hand how it does, now. But it doesn't give me much faith in humankind, or in the future.
posted by cytherea at 10:32 PM on November 27, 2005

then != than
posted by quonsar at 10:55 PM on November 27, 2005

jonmc: and the reason for the miffedness? It surprised me. I'm guessing that you're tired of seeing your country making the headlines as the bad guys yet again. Lord knows I am, and I don't have any US patriotism in me at all.

I think we're going to see the US public start getting belligerant about receiving this information. The public doesn't want to know.¹

I hope we can avoid burying our heads in the sand on MetaFilter. I think we've community and influence enough to actually make good things happen in the real world. But to do that, we have to know what's going on in the real world. Can't afford to quit digging up the dirt.

¹ If the public gets belligerent about the root cause of all this bad information, the US will be saved from this administration. I don't hold out a lot of hope for that.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:02 PM on November 27, 2005

Actually, re-reading with your words giving perspective, I can see that his little wank at the end of the FPP could well be irritating.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:07 PM on November 27, 2005

I think we've community and influence enough to actually make good things happen in the real world.

I don't. I think that idea (not just concerning MeFi but the entire internet) has pretty much been laid bare as the pipedream it always was.
posted by jonmc at 11:38 PM on November 27, 2005

I think that idea (not just concerning MeFi but the entire internet) has pretty much been laid bare as the pipedream it always was


posted by Heywood Mogroot at 12:17 AM on November 28, 2005

Oh, come on, these are just small prices to pay in the quest to achieve freedom and win the war on terrorism. Just like we won the war on drugs.

/extreme sardor
posted by deusdiabolus at 1:34 AM on November 28, 2005

Metafilter: Pulling your wangs for a while
posted by ryoshu at 3:05 AM on November 28, 2005

Nothing personal against anyone who brings that up but this notion that poll ratings for the President are a demonstration of some kind of political reaction from people concerning the behaviour of troops/contractors in Iraq is one of the most depressing and infuriating things...

Come on, poll ratings, is that what politics is reduced to? How pathetic is that?

Thank you again for writing.
Blah blah blah blah. I'm utterly useless.

There, that's the problem. No amount of words on weblogs and discussion boards can make up for that political inertia.
posted by funambulist at 3:26 AM on November 28, 2005

But to do that, we have to know what's going on in the real world.

It doesn't matter in the least how much you know! it's about what you do or don't do with that knowledge, and it's not so much you individually, you have a whole political system nicely paid to do that job. If political representatives don't have the interest or will or convenience to do anything about it, and still get elected, then that says it all, doesn't it? It maybe that the majority of the population doesn't really care, or it maybe that the system is broken and not representative enough and too caught up in itself to care, or a bit of both, the end result is the same. The internet is not a substitute for those bigger failings.

You could get blisters from posting about it here or elsewhere, it has zero effect. Sorry. (This is not to say that things shouldn't get posted or discussed! quite the opposite, I don't have any problem with that, but I have a problem with the assumption that's already "doing" something or having an influence, it can be a very dangerous and complacent assumption).
posted by funambulist at 3:36 AM on November 28, 2005

Influence of the internet on the course of politics is a pipedream?

I think the real question might be: how much influence?

A lot of the intellectual conversation of this country takes place in these forums.
posted by tgyg at 3:43 AM on November 28, 2005

I don't think the blame lies squarely at the feet of the administration

You won't blame Pandora for all the evils she let out of the box? She did open it, you know. It's not like she wasn't warned this shit was going to happen.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:41 AM on November 28, 2005

Whatever happened to the pottery barn rule?

American can't cut and run now. It will take decades to turn Iraq into an imperial success story like Germany or Japan.
posted by atticus at 5:36 AM on November 28, 2005

atticus, the Pottery Barn rule doesn't apply to the bull in the china shop. If a 'customer' breaks something, and they try to extract payment, and the 'customer' breaks another piece of inventory, while his credit cards are declined and no payment is received by the store, don't you think at some point they'd wise up and extract his ass? The U.S. doesn't acknowledge international law, so even that lame-ass analogy doesn't hold up to the point where the store would just call the cops.

Also, Germany and Japan had similar goals and even philosophies. Maybe there's a reason we didn't try to do the same to the entire northern African continent, eh?

Also, the U.S. government post WWII was in a completely different class than our present one. Objective-based, it took pains to avoid the appearance of war profiteering (that would be the opposite of defending war profiteering practices as minor). Arlington cemetery must be full of rolling corpses.

This article, and the sentiment behind it, seem to be a harbinger of the Iraqi government asking us to leave, which will be countered with a polite "you need to say the magic word..." from the Administration. We will leave when we're damned good and ready. Same rules that apply to the military 'asking' for more troops. They can ask, but if they don't do it the right way, their requests meet deaf ears.
posted by Busithoth at 6:34 AM on November 28, 2005

yeah, mefi's gonna save the world (which dosen't wanna be saved, IMHO). We can't come to a decision on somebody's font size in an FPP without a 200 comment bloodbath. I'm not holding my breath.

as for our "influence," dorian put it well.

We're killing time at work. Don't make this more than it is.
posted by jonmc at 6:53 AM on November 28, 2005

A lot of the intellectual conversation of this country takes place in these forums.

Assuming it was true, which it patently isn't, wouldn't that be even more tragic?

If people give up any effort to change things at a political level and replace that with internet banter, it's the biggest triumph of apathy I can think of.
posted by funambulist at 7:14 AM on November 28, 2005

If I have no wang to pull can I still register my extreme dismay at the horrors occurring because of the apathy and ignorance of my fellow citizens?

I heard someone say the other day that we need to stay in Iraq to quell the suicide bombers. How many suicide bombers were there before we invaded? Zero. And why in the world would someone think that by staying in Iraq we will make things better? We don't have a great track record.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:08 AM on November 28, 2005

If I have no wang to pull can I still register my extreme dismay at the horrors occurring because of the apathy and ignorance of my fellow citizens?

apathy and withdrawal in disgust are not the same - Richard Linklater
posted by jonmc at 8:17 AM on November 28, 2005

You won't blame Pandora for all the evils she let out of the box? She did open it, you know. It's not like she wasn't warned this shit was going to happen

Not when it was pretty clear that Pandora was a psychopath. Of course she was going to open the box. I blame the people who gave her the box in the first place. But then, that is assuming that they were rational and intelligent in the first place, and now I'm not so sure of that anymore.
posted by cytherea at 8:39 AM on November 28, 2005

Tim Spicer
posted by adamvasco at 8:41 AM on November 28, 2005

Sorry wrong thread. Still relevant though.
posted by adamvasco at 8:46 AM on November 28, 2005

Dammit. I want a job where I can act like an arrogant tin god, swing my dick at complete strangers, befriend some of the nastiest people on the planet (Saudi Royal Family, for those who are unsure) and still rake in disgracefully large coin! And then see atrocities committed because I buggered up the region! And then retire at my family ranch in luxury drinking ice tea all day and playing golf! Yeah!
posted by illiad at 9:12 AM on November 28, 2005

poll ratings, is that what politics is reduced to?

If the US was a parliamentary democracy, where a prime minister served at the convenience of the people and the sufferance of a party or parties, then they would matter a lot more. But it isn't, so they don't.
posted by meehawl at 9:23 AM on November 28, 2005

If there's only one good thing to come of this war, it's that a Republican doesn't have a chance in hell of getting elected President in '08 or '12.
posted by wakko at 10:56 AM on November 28, 2005

wakko: You're kidding, right? I mean, that's what I thought this last election.
posted by LordSludge at 11:41 AM on November 28, 2005

You could get blisters from posting about it here or elsewhere, it has zero effect.

Only nothing has zero effect. Or everything. One of those.
posted by mrgrimm at 6:35 PM on November 28, 2005