"Welcome to Ohio! Ihre Papiere, bitte!"
December 23, 2005 8:59 AM Subscribe
Governor Taft of Ohio is about to sign Senate Bill 9, the Ohio Patriot Act. Among its provisions:
- Police can deny entry to "transportation infrastructure" to anyone not showing an ID;
- Police can demand the name, address, and date of birth of anyone suspected of having committed a crime or being about to commit a crime, or having witnessed a crime or a plan to commit a crime. Failure to provide this information is an arrestable offense -- so basically all demonstrators could be required to give their names, addresses and dates of birth or face arrest;
- Reminiscent of Joe McCarthy's famous question, many state licenses will begin with the question "Are you a member of an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List?". Failure to answer means no license; answering affirmatively is self-incrimination.
- Perhaps worst of all, the original version of the bill simply prohibited state or local governemnts or government employees from objecting to the USA PATRIOT act. The current version allows criticism, but threatens local government with the loss of funds if they in any way "materially hinder" Federal anti-terrorism efforts.
The men who founded this nation were brave and forward thinking, the United States formed as the most modern and enlightened government in history.
And now, through the spoiled tricksters in power, it is being dismantled while the citizens are at home watching another sitcom, laughing, laughing, laughing.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:04 AM on December 23, 2005
And now, through the spoiled tricksters in power, it is being dismantled while the citizens are at home watching another sitcom, laughing, laughing, laughing.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:04 AM on December 23, 2005
Well, good. Now people like Judge Posner will have a state where they can feel right at home, and the rest of us will be able to live our lives like normal folks.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:06 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:06 AM on December 23, 2005
Outrageous. Absolutely outrageous.
This point is just otherworldly:
Reminiscent of Joe McCarthy's famous question, many state licenses will begin with the question "Are you a member of an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List?". Failure to answer means no license; answering affirmatively is self-incrimination.
Being able to answer that at all requires you first to have researched and read the list! So is this list going to be provided for applicants to peruse to make sure they're not on it? Will people that ARE on it truthfully respond?
How can this in any way be considered to be a reasonable law? Surely Ohioans aren't actually behind this nonsense...?
posted by darkstar at 9:06 AM on December 23, 2005
This point is just otherworldly:
Reminiscent of Joe McCarthy's famous question, many state licenses will begin with the question "Are you a member of an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List?". Failure to answer means no license; answering affirmatively is self-incrimination.
Being able to answer that at all requires you first to have researched and read the list! So is this list going to be provided for applicants to peruse to make sure they're not on it? Will people that ARE on it truthfully respond?
How can this in any way be considered to be a reasonable law? Surely Ohioans aren't actually behind this nonsense...?
posted by darkstar at 9:06 AM on December 23, 2005
Oh, and fuck Jesus and every moron who voted for Republicans because they promised to stop homosexuals from getting married.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:09 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:09 AM on December 23, 2005
It's hardly sleepwalking.
posted by chunking express at 9:11 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by chunking express at 9:11 AM on December 23, 2005
Yeah, like I needed another reason to hate Ohio.
posted by Armen Tanzarian at 9:11 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Armen Tanzarian at 9:11 AM on December 23, 2005
Remind me to go around Ohio during my next roadtrip.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:16 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:16 AM on December 23, 2005
Kinda funny: I just stumbled across this story, which seemed timely.
posted by darkstar at 9:17 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by darkstar at 9:17 AM on December 23, 2005
Why is this guy still governor? He was convicted in August of taking illegal contributions but didn't think it necessary to resign. The total lack of shame from the republican party is astounding.
posted by octothorpe at 9:18 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by octothorpe at 9:18 AM on December 23, 2005
At least the "Reagan Republicans" were suspicious of big government.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:19 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:19 AM on December 23, 2005
That's strange, I thought every Ohio republican was a criminal.
posted by delmoi at 9:19 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by delmoi at 9:19 AM on December 23, 2005
Hurray, I'm so glad I moved! :)
posted by By The Grace of God at 9:22 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by By The Grace of God at 9:22 AM on December 23, 2005
Um interesting post but did you have to take over the front page with it?
posted by bitdamaged at 9:24 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by bitdamaged at 9:24 AM on December 23, 2005
I've lived in Ohio. I can assure you the terrorists don't give a fuck about it.
posted by bardic at 9:29 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by bardic at 9:29 AM on December 23, 2005
Why don't they just dam' well repeal the Constitution and get it over with?
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:32 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 9:32 AM on December 23, 2005
bitdamaged writes "Um interesting post but did you have to take over the front page with it?"
Good point, hipster. It's just the basic liberties our founding Fathers risked their lives to establish, and hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have dies to preserve.
God forbid it should take up space where we could link to something important, like a Flash game, or a link to your bread and circuses.
posted by orthogonality at 9:32 AM on December 23, 2005
Good point, hipster. It's just the basic liberties our founding Fathers risked their lives to establish, and hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have dies to preserve.
God forbid it should take up space where we could link to something important, like a Flash game, or a link to your bread and circuses.
posted by orthogonality at 9:32 AM on December 23, 2005
Well at least the terrorists can no longer "hate us for our freedom".
posted by MasonDixon at 9:32 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by MasonDixon at 9:32 AM on December 23, 2005
This is great
a ringside seat
watching America's Escape from Freedom.
Its like seeing that poor weightlifter with the explosive anal prolapse - completely tragic in one sense and completely hilarious in another.
Hey America - while you're flexing your arms, you'd better watch your ass.
posted by isopraxis at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
a ringside seat
watching America's Escape from Freedom.
Its like seeing that poor weightlifter with the explosive anal prolapse - completely tragic in one sense and completely hilarious in another.
Hey America - while you're flexing your arms, you'd better watch your ass.
posted by isopraxis at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
"Has america jumped the shark?", Tonight on Oprah!
posted by blue_beetle at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by blue_beetle at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
Well at least the terrorists can no longer "hate us for our freedom".
posted by MasonDixon at 9:32 AM
At LAST, someone has made sense of the Administration's strategy against terrorism!
posted by darkstar at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by MasonDixon at 9:32 AM
At LAST, someone has made sense of the Administration's strategy against terrorism!
posted by darkstar at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
I went back to Ohio but my city was gone.
posted by maxsparber at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by maxsparber at 9:35 AM on December 23, 2005
I've lived in Ohio. I can assure you the terrorists don't give a fuck about it.
Well to be fair.
posted by Otis at 9:39 AM on December 23, 2005
Well to be fair.
posted by Otis at 9:39 AM on December 23, 2005
I wonder if this will stand up constitutionally? It is not the Federal government, and I could see a justifiable case that it intrudes too much on federal authority while overly limiting individual freedom. Might make an interesting SCOTUS case. Anyone (no *coff* libertarian authoritarians *coff* please) with a good sense of law have an opinion?
yeah, I think I'll boycott Ohio now on, or at least until it removes it's head from it's ass.
posted by edgeways at 9:41 AM on December 23, 2005
yeah, I think I'll boycott Ohio now on, or at least until it removes it's head from it's ass.
posted by edgeways at 9:41 AM on December 23, 2005
Oh, and if this style of a free democracy appeals to you, we've got election reform too!
posted by Otis at 9:43 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Otis at 9:43 AM on December 23, 2005
And we've got a big restoration project going on too. It's just like Trading Spaces! Why not lend a hand!
posted by Otis at 9:46 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Otis at 9:46 AM on December 23, 2005
Good point, hipster. It's just the basic liberties our founding Fathers risked their lives to establish, and hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have dies to preserve.
You heard 'im, folks: The founding fathers risked their lives and hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have die[d] to preserve orthogonality's right to take up full screens of the Mefi front page. So suck it!
Also, back on point: I grew up in Ohio and have never been gladder that I left ...and moved to Pennsylvania, which is now (hooray!) no longer the most backward state in the nation.
posted by soyjoy at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2005
You heard 'im, folks: The founding fathers risked their lives and hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have die[d] to preserve orthogonality's right to take up full screens of the Mefi front page. So suck it!
Also, back on point: I grew up in Ohio and have never been gladder that I left ...and moved to Pennsylvania, which is now (hooray!) no longer the most backward state in the nation.
posted by soyjoy at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2005
hah! Libertarian authoritarians. Pure gold.
Is it just me, or are most self professed libertarians just that?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2005
Is it just me, or are most self professed libertarians just that?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 9:50 AM on December 23, 2005
edgways: All state laws are subject to federal constitutional scrutiny (by US circuit and US supreme courts) per the federal supremacy clause of the U.S. consitiution.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:51 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:51 AM on December 23, 2005
At least the "Reagan Republicans" were suspicious of big government.
Only because they weren't in control of the government at the time. Now that the House, senate, and Presidency are controlled by Republicans and 7 out of 9 Supreme Court justices have been appointed by Republicans, big government is now a-ok.
posted by deanc at 9:52 AM on December 23, 2005
Only because they weren't in control of the government at the time. Now that the House, senate, and Presidency are controlled by Republicans and 7 out of 9 Supreme Court justices have been appointed by Republicans, big government is now a-ok.
posted by deanc at 9:52 AM on December 23, 2005
constitution
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:52 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by ZenMasterThis at 9:52 AM on December 23, 2005
This is bewilderingly, utterly, unspeakably insane.
posted by Space Kitty at 9:52 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Space Kitty at 9:52 AM on December 23, 2005
ohio is a state with every reason to be paranoid and anxious ... they did steal toledo from us, after all
"are you a member of the u of m alumni association?"
seriously, this needs to be taken to court ... and someone needs to tell these people that true patriotism is not coerced from people
posted by pyramid termite at 9:56 AM on December 23, 2005
"are you a member of the u of m alumni association?"
seriously, this needs to be taken to court ... and someone needs to tell these people that true patriotism is not coerced from people
posted by pyramid termite at 9:56 AM on December 23, 2005
As much as have nothing against the ACLU (I am a card-carrying member), it might have been better to link to the text of the bill, rather than the ACLU site.
posted by psmealey at 10:01 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by psmealey at 10:01 AM on December 23, 2005
Reporting here from the front lines in Columbus. I've noticed people are jamming the stores and seem to be stocking up for whatever is to happen next. Maybe blackouts? Don't know but most people I've talked to are plannning on hunkering down in their homes this weekend just to be safe. Children, so far, are the first casualties as they find it hard to sleep.
I see smoke in the distance but that may just be the Budweiser plant. Will keep you posted as things develop.
posted by hal9k at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2005
I see smoke in the distance but that may just be the Budweiser plant. Will keep you posted as things develop.
posted by hal9k at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2005
And if you are considering a move here, may I suggest lovely Cheshire, Ohio?
posted by Otis at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Otis at 10:02 AM on December 23, 2005
Uh-oh...Maybe it's not just us Usians: Britain will be first country to monitor every car journey (Independent Online).
posted by mmahaffie at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2005
BTW, Taft's approval rating is 6.5%. Six point five percent.
posted by psmealey at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by psmealey at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2005
When I see this kind of evil bullshit taking place in a country that claims to be a beacon of freedom to the world, I am always reminded of Matt Groening's words:
"The authorities don't always have your best interests in mind."
It's a phrase that I have considered tattooing on the back of my hand as a constant reminder. The message is so universal, ranging from politicians, corporate bosses, and self-styled leaders of all sorts.
posted by theorique at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2005
"The authorities don't always have your best interests in mind."
It's a phrase that I have considered tattooing on the back of my hand as a constant reminder. The message is so universal, ranging from politicians, corporate bosses, and self-styled leaders of all sorts.
posted by theorique at 10:04 AM on December 23, 2005
The authorities never have your best interests at heart.
Sure, sometimes, their short-term goals may advance yours: and farmers fatten calves for slaughter.
posted by orthogonality at 10:09 AM on December 23, 2005
Sure, sometimes, their short-term goals may advance yours: and farmers fatten calves for slaughter.
posted by orthogonality at 10:09 AM on December 23, 2005
Oh, calm down already. This isn't that big of a deal. China will be along to liberate your country in a couple of years!
posted by chrominance at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by chrominance at 10:10 AM on December 23, 2005
So with an approval rating like that I am assuming this is just a big 'fuck you' gesture.
reminds me of how a few in the Senate got all huffy about the ANWAR provision being stripped from that ridiculous "defense spending" bill, so they also stripped heating assistance for low income families out of the bill as well. Which if they took out all the rest of the unrelated crap and voted on it individually I wouldn't have so much a problem with it, but as it is it was a petty mean jack assed thing to do.
"humph, if they won't let us drill, we'll bankrupt (or kill) a few people this year who can't afford to heat their homes, that'll teach them."
posted by edgeways at 10:11 AM on December 23, 2005
reminds me of how a few in the Senate got all huffy about the ANWAR provision being stripped from that ridiculous "defense spending" bill, so they also stripped heating assistance for low income families out of the bill as well. Which if they took out all the rest of the unrelated crap and voted on it individually I wouldn't have so much a problem with it, but as it is it was a petty mean jack assed thing to do.
"humph, if they won't let us drill, we'll bankrupt (or kill) a few people this year who can't afford to heat their homes, that'll teach them."
posted by edgeways at 10:11 AM on December 23, 2005
So is this list going to be provided for applicants to peruse to make sure they're not on it?
Well, here it is, just so we at MeFi, at least, can all make sure we aren't. I wasn't wholly convinced that the Unitarian Universalist church or any of its social justice organizations wouldn't be--but the only religion they seem to really hate here is Islam.
posted by dlugoczaj at 10:12 AM on December 23, 2005
Well, here it is, just so we at MeFi, at least, can all make sure we aren't. I wasn't wholly convinced that the Unitarian Universalist church or any of its social justice organizations wouldn't be--but the only religion they seem to really hate here is Islam.
posted by dlugoczaj at 10:12 AM on December 23, 2005
Are you a member of an organization on the U.S. Department of State Terrorist Exclusion List?"
Isn't this a violation of the 5th amendment? I suppose that a driver's license is not a right, however ...
"Libertarian authoritarians" is funny, and too true. Reminds me of those guys who want to kill welfare, eliminate income tax *and* put a giant wall up between the U.S. and Mexico. Heh.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:15 AM on December 23, 2005
Isn't this a violation of the 5th amendment? I suppose that a driver's license is not a right, however ...
"Libertarian authoritarians" is funny, and too true. Reminds me of those guys who want to kill welfare, eliminate income tax *and* put a giant wall up between the U.S. and Mexico. Heh.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:15 AM on December 23, 2005
As long as they still let Nazis illegally demonstrate in black neighborhoods and move deaf people to live near the airports.
I was teasing my family about whether they got to vote this year or just stood in a long line until the Republicans announced the winner. They're planning a mass exodus back to Coloma any day now.
posted by Marnie at 10:17 AM on December 23, 2005
I was teasing my family about whether they got to vote this year or just stood in a long line until the Republicans announced the winner. They're planning a mass exodus back to Coloma any day now.
posted by Marnie at 10:17 AM on December 23, 2005
People Against Gangsterism and Drugs
man there is some kick ass names on that list.
Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus
If it wasn't for their (most likely) violent and unsaviory nature it'd be fun to identify with those titles. Couse the same could be said for the United St...
posted by edgeways at 10:17 AM on December 23, 2005
man there is some kick ass names on that list.
Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus
If it wasn't for their (most likely) violent and unsaviory nature it'd be fun to identify with those titles. Couse the same could be said for the United St...
posted by edgeways at 10:17 AM on December 23, 2005
To expand on theorique's idea, I think we need to tattoo the bill of rights on the inside of the eyelids of every elected official who would vote for a bill like this that is so blatantly unconstitutional. What a waste of money (and time) it will be before this gets overturned (yes, even by our increasingly libertarian authoritarian SCOTUS)...
posted by twsf at 10:20 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by twsf at 10:20 AM on December 23, 2005
"Remind me to go around Ohio during my next roadtrip."
Seconded. No way I'm showing my "papers" to drive through a State of the US Union. I wonder what will happen if they try that on some hard-core patriot from Texas, or maybe a native of New Hampshire, the "Live Free or Die" state?
Sheesh, if I got stopped at the Ohio border by their state troopers and asked for my ID, I'd turn right around and drive to the nearest National Guard installation to alert them that Ohio has seceded and is now a Soviet Socialist Republic.
To my actual personal friends in Ohio: RUN! ESCAPE! You're Mormons, you'll be welcome in Utah! RUUUNNN!!!!!
posted by zoogleplex at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2005
Seconded. No way I'm showing my "papers" to drive through a State of the US Union. I wonder what will happen if they try that on some hard-core patriot from Texas, or maybe a native of New Hampshire, the "Live Free or Die" state?
Sheesh, if I got stopped at the Ohio border by their state troopers and asked for my ID, I'd turn right around and drive to the nearest National Guard installation to alert them that Ohio has seceded and is now a Soviet Socialist Republic.
To my actual personal friends in Ohio: RUN! ESCAPE! You're Mormons, you'll be welcome in Utah! RUUUNNN!!!!!
posted by zoogleplex at 10:21 AM on December 23, 2005
If so, Ring in the New Year with an Ohio Gun, Knife and Military Show.
posted by Otis at 10:24 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Otis at 10:24 AM on December 23, 2005
(Free admission to the show if you join the NRA while at the show.)
posted by Otis at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Otis at 10:26 AM on December 23, 2005
to be fair the libertarian authoritarian is not my invention. i would not post this normally, but as a few have commented on it.
one of Mefi's more controversial members has self described himself as such. (long comment, the relevant info is in the second to last paragraph)
Sorry, this is not meant as a derail. I'll go off and hide my head in shame now.
posted by edgeways at 10:27 AM on December 23, 2005
one of Mefi's more controversial members has self described himself as such. (long comment, the relevant info is in the second to last paragraph)
Sorry, this is not meant as a derail. I'll go off and hide my head in shame now.
posted by edgeways at 10:27 AM on December 23, 2005
Let's sing Patriotic Songs for the Fatherland the Homeland Ohio.
(Deutsche Leser, die letzten zwei sind in Deutschland verboten.)
posted by orthogonality at 10:29 AM on December 23, 2005
(Deutsche Leser, die letzten zwei sind in Deutschland verboten.)
posted by orthogonality at 10:29 AM on December 23, 2005
Anarchist Faction for Overthrow?
Oh, come on. You know these guys just sit around in coffee shops, insulting Sartre in loud voices and complaing about the lack of froth on their lattes.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:36 AM on December 23, 2005
Oh, come on. You know these guys just sit around in coffee shops, insulting Sartre in loud voices and complaing about the lack of froth on their lattes.
posted by Devils Rancher at 10:36 AM on December 23, 2005
One thing that seems to have been forgotten these past four years is that one of Bin Laden and Al Quaeda's main objectives was to cause the break-up of the United States. They felt by engaging in asymetric warfare over a long period of time, and getting to US to over extend its military (presumably in an overreaction to 911), that the US would go as the Soviet Union did. It was dissolve under the economic pressures as well as internal political factionation.
Let's see here. Al Quaeda attacked us on 911, and since then, we have pulled our troops out of Saudi Arabia, have involved ourselves in a seemingly intractable and expensive conflict and Iraq, and the American electorate is as bitterly divided as ever. Domestic moves like this, that push us ever closer to a closed society - which mostly violates our founding principles - make that situation even worse.
Tell me again, who is winning the War on Terror?
posted by psmealey at 10:40 AM on December 23, 2005
Let's see here. Al Quaeda attacked us on 911, and since then, we have pulled our troops out of Saudi Arabia, have involved ourselves in a seemingly intractable and expensive conflict and Iraq, and the American electorate is as bitterly divided as ever. Domestic moves like this, that push us ever closer to a closed society - which mostly violates our founding principles - make that situation even worse.
Tell me again, who is winning the War on Terror?
posted by psmealey at 10:40 AM on December 23, 2005
No Judeans People's Front? or is it the People's Front of Judea?
posted by edgeways at 10:42 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by edgeways at 10:42 AM on December 23, 2005
Tin soldiers, Nixon coming.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by Smedleyman at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2005
I think it's pretty clear who's winning, psmealey. There's a whole lot of people, clearly, who are mortally fucking terrified, as if they think 500 million terrorists are going to parachute into the US simultaneously and, at two of them per US resident, will physically tear each of our bodies in half, and then eat us raw while we're still alive - like the Reavers are coming or something.
Terror is definitely winning.
Personally, I think anyone who's that terrified is a total fucking pussy. Sorry to be so blunt. Some MeFites have described themselves this way, and yes my opinion applies to them, too. Americans aren't supposed to be terrified of anything, we've got a reputation as a pretty tough lot.
Apparently some "Americans" have forgotten what that's all about, and would rather cower in a puddle of their own piss behind their uniformed authorities.
Makes me ill.
posted by zoogleplex at 10:56 AM on December 23, 2005
Terror is definitely winning.
Personally, I think anyone who's that terrified is a total fucking pussy. Sorry to be so blunt. Some MeFites have described themselves this way, and yes my opinion applies to them, too. Americans aren't supposed to be terrified of anything, we've got a reputation as a pretty tough lot.
Apparently some "Americans" have forgotten what that's all about, and would rather cower in a puddle of their own piss behind their uniformed authorities.
Makes me ill.
posted by zoogleplex at 10:56 AM on December 23, 2005
man there is some kick ass names on that list.
Am I missing something or is there a suspicious absence of a rather high profile terrorist group on that list? I mean if I were compiling a terrorist exclusion list I think I would put 'Al Qaeda' in there with the other Al's.
posted by well_balanced at 11:05 AM on December 23, 2005
Am I missing something or is there a suspicious absence of a rather high profile terrorist group on that list? I mean if I were compiling a terrorist exclusion list I think I would put 'Al Qaeda' in there with the other Al's.
posted by well_balanced at 11:05 AM on December 23, 2005
People who are frightened tend to be the most violent. When you are acting as a nation and there is a fight or flight response where do you go? There is no flight option, so the fight option comes on strong, and I would argue in most cases is poorly applied, which is not surprising as we generally are not at our most rational when frightened and frankly decisions made in the heat of the moment more often tend to be sub-par decisions.
This is all predicated upon the notion that nations act as individuals which I generally ascribe to. (social fractals)
posted by edgeways at 11:05 AM on December 23, 2005
This is all predicated upon the notion that nations act as individuals which I generally ascribe to. (social fractals)
posted by edgeways at 11:05 AM on December 23, 2005
I'm hoping I'm having a very bad dream and will wake up soon back in the America I grew up in.
posted by languagehat at 11:07 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by languagehat at 11:07 AM on December 23, 2005
I ain't scart a no terroriss! Sheeet. Brang them fockers on.
I think anyone who's that terrified is a total fucking pussy. Sorry to be so blunt.
Why be sorry? Your right. Most people are complete pussies.
But I don't think that's the problem. I think people are more or less lazy and complacent and perfectly content with their creature comforts. Even those that SAY they hate Bush or say they think he is evil.
On either side of the spectrum it's mostly bitching. But fewer on the left are willing to sacrifice to take the country back. And the only way, short of violence, is economic non-participation, massive boycotts, work stoppages and walk outs.
You know. Not buying that iPod, VW Passat, XBox 360 and shit.
posted by tkchrist at 11:10 AM on December 23, 2005
I think anyone who's that terrified is a total fucking pussy. Sorry to be so blunt.
Why be sorry? Your right. Most people are complete pussies.
But I don't think that's the problem. I think people are more or less lazy and complacent and perfectly content with their creature comforts. Even those that SAY they hate Bush or say they think he is evil.
On either side of the spectrum it's mostly bitching. But fewer on the left are willing to sacrifice to take the country back. And the only way, short of violence, is economic non-participation, massive boycotts, work stoppages and walk outs.
You know. Not buying that iPod, VW Passat, XBox 360 and shit.
posted by tkchrist at 11:10 AM on December 23, 2005
snigger, good catch well_balanced .
"No I don't belong to any of those groups, but I do belong to Al Qaeda"
"Oh, well since that isn't on the list I guess you are ok, here's your driver's liscence Mr. O.(D) B Laden"
*note to any NSA or other types, I DO NOT belong to Al Qaeda or any of those other organizations, even if I am partial to the name Nada Management Organization"
posted by edgeways at 11:13 AM on December 23, 2005
"No I don't belong to any of those groups, but I do belong to Al Qaeda"
"Oh, well since that isn't on the list I guess you are ok, here's your driver's liscence Mr. O.(D) B Laden"
*note to any NSA or other types, I DO NOT belong to Al Qaeda or any of those other organizations, even if I am partial to the name Nada Management Organization"
posted by edgeways at 11:13 AM on December 23, 2005
You know. Not buying that iPod, VW Passat, XBox 360 and shit.
And pissiing-off China will accomplish what, exactly?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:14 AM on December 23, 2005
And pissiing-off China will accomplish what, exactly?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:14 AM on December 23, 2005
Afroblanco: it was TRUE not long ago.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:19 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:19 AM on December 23, 2005
Speaking of the federal Patriot Act, though, I note that Bush is going to sign the ONE month extension approved by the House, even after he already said he would reject a 3-month extension because it was too short a duration.
posted by darkstar at 11:23 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by darkstar at 11:23 AM on December 23, 2005
How to determine if your country is succumbing to despotism. (school movie from 1946) We discussed it here, but the country has slid further into despotism since.
posted by caddis at 11:29 AM on December 23, 2005
posted by caddis at 11:29 AM on December 23, 2005
"You know. Not buying that iPod, VW Passat, XBox 360 and shit.
And pissiing-off China will accomplish what, exactly?"
Who knows, but maybe it'll bring a few jobs back here one day.
posted by drstein at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2005
And pissiing-off China will accomplish what, exactly?"
Who knows, but maybe it'll bring a few jobs back here one day.
posted by drstein at 11:31 AM on December 23, 2005
"This is all predicated upon the notion that nations act as individuals which I generally ascribe to. (social fractals)"
There's some merit to that in this case, I think. At the moment the US is acting like a freaked-out paranoid 11 year old who's off his meds and has the key to daddy's gun locker.
I guess you could apply that same notion to the individual states of the Union, too. Interesting how the ones who've actually been attacked - one of them repeatedly over more than a decade - are acting like rational adults.
"I think people are more or less lazy and complacent and perfectly content with their creature comforts."
That's definitely true. Seems that until the cable TV goes out and there's no gasoline for the cars, 90% of people will do nothing at all to change our situation. I mean, dammit if we cut our electric use in half, we wouldn't need so much goddamn oil! If people would turn the goddamn lights out when they're not in a room and shut down the damn computers when they're not using them, that would probably take care of it!
Being smarter about driving less might help too, and some kind of government program - even at the state level - to give people ways to drive less would do immense help, but NOOO, nobody wants to give up their right to burn 10mpg driving alone in a 6000 lb. SUV, because they make plenty of money, they've earned the right to live large!
They are of course forgetting that they are members of a community, a society, a nation - and by being selfish and complacent they're screwing that nation up.
"But fewer on the left are willing to sacrifice to take the country back."
Well, I am. My grandparents lived thru WWII with all the hardship and rationing there - even though my grandpa was in a "defense important" job at the phone company, he still had to give up a lot and put the car up on blocks in the garage for 3 years because of the gas rationing - and were able to provide for my dad and aunt even so. I try to work off that example.
Americans are supposed to be tough and independent, yet teamed up in brotherhood and sisterhood to face any and all dangers when necessary. A lot of us are acting more like spoiled brats with big bags of candy we don't want to share, except we'll give some to our bully buddies to keep everyone else away.
Ohio, if you really mean it with asking for papers, you are being piss-yellow cowards. Not worthy of being a State.
(To the many Ohioans who don't agree with this law, get out there and shame your terrified little mousy neighbors - remind them they're Americans, fergossake!!)
OK, end rant. This kinda shit really pisses me off, and the people who are happy with it... well, I don't wanna be around them, because I'll do something bad. >: (
posted by zoogleplex at 11:36 AM on December 23, 2005
There's some merit to that in this case, I think. At the moment the US is acting like a freaked-out paranoid 11 year old who's off his meds and has the key to daddy's gun locker.
I guess you could apply that same notion to the individual states of the Union, too. Interesting how the ones who've actually been attacked - one of them repeatedly over more than a decade - are acting like rational adults.
"I think people are more or less lazy and complacent and perfectly content with their creature comforts."
That's definitely true. Seems that until the cable TV goes out and there's no gasoline for the cars, 90% of people will do nothing at all to change our situation. I mean, dammit if we cut our electric use in half, we wouldn't need so much goddamn oil! If people would turn the goddamn lights out when they're not in a room and shut down the damn computers when they're not using them, that would probably take care of it!
Being smarter about driving less might help too, and some kind of government program - even at the state level - to give people ways to drive less would do immense help, but NOOO, nobody wants to give up their right to burn 10mpg driving alone in a 6000 lb. SUV, because they make plenty of money, they've earned the right to live large!
They are of course forgetting that they are members of a community, a society, a nation - and by being selfish and complacent they're screwing that nation up.
"But fewer on the left are willing to sacrifice to take the country back."
Well, I am. My grandparents lived thru WWII with all the hardship and rationing there - even though my grandpa was in a "defense important" job at the phone company, he still had to give up a lot and put the car up on blocks in the garage for 3 years because of the gas rationing - and were able to provide for my dad and aunt even so. I try to work off that example.
Americans are supposed to be tough and independent, yet teamed up in brotherhood and sisterhood to face any and all dangers when necessary. A lot of us are acting more like spoiled brats with big bags of candy we don't want to share, except we'll give some to our bully buddies to keep everyone else away.
Ohio, if you really mean it with asking for papers, you are being piss-yellow cowards. Not worthy of being a State.
(To the many Ohioans who don't agree with this law, get out there and shame your terrified little mousy neighbors - remind them they're Americans, fergossake!!)
OK, end rant. This kinda shit really pisses me off, and the people who are happy with it... well, I don't wanna be around them, because I'll do something bad. >: (
posted by zoogleplex at 11:36 AM on December 23, 2005
And pissiing-off China will accomplish what, exactly?
LOL.
But seriously. I guarantee you that even if half the 38% of the country that identifies as liberal simply did not participate meaningfully in the economy this Christmas would be the biggest consumer die-off in history. The impact of that would be noticed by our ruling Junta.
This shit is ALL about money. Protests, peace pot-lucks, email petitions - all that - do pretty much nothing except organize superficial messages. Open your eyes. Look at the net effect of Shehan and the massive protests. Yup. We are still at War. They did nothing to prevent it. And nothing to stop it now. Becuase the right was prepared for everything we did.
The Right is wise to how the left organizes and have out-flanked us. Besides OUR political heavy weights on the left - like Hillary - sold us the fuck out.
This far down the hole a political sea-change will only happen after citizens themselves regain thier power on the ground. That's is how you will get political alignment. And you do that getting control of the economy. Or with violence. Eventually the latter happens when people don't do the former in time.
You really want to change things? Stop buying things you don't need to survive and let corporations know that's what your doing and why.
posted by tkchrist at 11:37 AM on December 23, 2005
LOL.
But seriously. I guarantee you that even if half the 38% of the country that identifies as liberal simply did not participate meaningfully in the economy this Christmas would be the biggest consumer die-off in history. The impact of that would be noticed by our ruling Junta.
This shit is ALL about money. Protests, peace pot-lucks, email petitions - all that - do pretty much nothing except organize superficial messages. Open your eyes. Look at the net effect of Shehan and the massive protests. Yup. We are still at War. They did nothing to prevent it. And nothing to stop it now. Becuase the right was prepared for everything we did.
The Right is wise to how the left organizes and have out-flanked us. Besides OUR political heavy weights on the left - like Hillary - sold us the fuck out.
This far down the hole a political sea-change will only happen after citizens themselves regain thier power on the ground. That's is how you will get political alignment. And you do that getting control of the economy. Or with violence. Eventually the latter happens when people don't do the former in time.
You really want to change things? Stop buying things you don't need to survive and let corporations know that's what your doing and why.
posted by tkchrist at 11:37 AM on December 23, 2005
How to determine if your country is succumbing to despotism.
gee, i was expecting something quaint and funny ... this may be a little quaint, but it sure isn't funny
it's rather disturbing, in fact ...
posted by pyramid termite at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2005
gee, i was expecting something quaint and funny ... this may be a little quaint, but it sure isn't funny
it's rather disturbing, in fact ...
posted by pyramid termite at 11:51 AM on December 23, 2005
Anybody but me notice that in the scene in the video where group of people is reciting the Pledge of Allegiance, the "under God" line is left out?
That's because the film was made before 1956.
posted by zoogleplex at 12:14 PM on December 23, 2005
That's because the film was made before 1956.
posted by zoogleplex at 12:14 PM on December 23, 2005
On either side of the spectrum it's mostly bitching. But fewer on the left are willing to sacrifice to take the country back. And the only way, short of violence, is economic non-participation, massive boycotts, work stoppages and walk outs.
I think it's a couple of things, actually.
I think most decent people are, or would be, willing to sacrifice, but there's a complete leadership vacuum on this subject that can provide catalysis for that to happen. Conservation is just too explosive an issue. The last national leader of any note who put it to the people straight on this subject was Jimmy Carter, and look at what they did to him. Carter becaome the most (unjustly, in my view) ridiculed President in American History, and probably the last one had any semblance of integrity. His administration had other problems no doubt, a terrible economy inherited form Nixon/Ford, the hostage crisis, and ill-prepared military, and so on. But, by and large his undoing was his demand of sacrifice from the American people. This opened up a huge opportunity for his adversaries on the right to skewer him, and they took it. Since then, it's been one long goddamn debt-fueled shopping spree.
The other thing preventing any real change is this prevailing sense that people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. The dollar's seemingly eventual crash of the dollar, default on foreign debt, the housing bubble popping, peak oil, the next major blackout, system wide bank failures, the next 911, etc. whatever. I think people are holding on to their consumerist ways because they know it's all going to come crashing down around us one day, and most likely in their lifetimes. So they figure they're if powerless to do anything about it, so why do anything about it but put it off until it's upon us?
Once that happens, then yes, you'll see mass demonstrations, boycotts, breadlines, etc.
posted by psmealey at 12:16 PM on December 23, 2005
I think it's a couple of things, actually.
I think most decent people are, or would be, willing to sacrifice, but there's a complete leadership vacuum on this subject that can provide catalysis for that to happen. Conservation is just too explosive an issue. The last national leader of any note who put it to the people straight on this subject was Jimmy Carter, and look at what they did to him. Carter becaome the most (unjustly, in my view) ridiculed President in American History, and probably the last one had any semblance of integrity. His administration had other problems no doubt, a terrible economy inherited form Nixon/Ford, the hostage crisis, and ill-prepared military, and so on. But, by and large his undoing was his demand of sacrifice from the American people. This opened up a huge opportunity for his adversaries on the right to skewer him, and they took it. Since then, it's been one long goddamn debt-fueled shopping spree.
The other thing preventing any real change is this prevailing sense that people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. The dollar's seemingly eventual crash of the dollar, default on foreign debt, the housing bubble popping, peak oil, the next major blackout, system wide bank failures, the next 911, etc. whatever. I think people are holding on to their consumerist ways because they know it's all going to come crashing down around us one day, and most likely in their lifetimes. So they figure they're if powerless to do anything about it, so why do anything about it but put it off until it's upon us?
Once that happens, then yes, you'll see mass demonstrations, boycotts, breadlines, etc.
posted by psmealey at 12:16 PM on December 23, 2005
Indeed. Too bad we can't actually, you know, be a community, look forward and try to deal with problems before they become acute.
Sheep. Baa.
But hey, everything's great right now, huh?
posted by zoogleplex at 12:23 PM on December 23, 2005
Sheep. Baa.
But hey, everything's great right now, huh?
posted by zoogleplex at 12:23 PM on December 23, 2005
Afroblanco: "from psmealy's link : I'm not aware of anyone who's ever sunk lower," pollster John Zogby said.
hahahahahah. 6.5%. That's rich. Man, at some point, you just gotta give up, ya know? I mean, with numbers like that, it would be entirely probably that people on his own staff think that he's doing a lousy job."
"In what may turn out to be one of the biggest free-falls in the history of presidential polling, President Bush's job-approval rating among African Americans has dropped to 2 percent, according to a new NBC/Wall Street Journal poll."
posted by 31d1 at 12:38 PM on December 23, 2005
hahahahahah. 6.5%. That's rich. Man, at some point, you just gotta give up, ya know? I mean, with numbers like that, it would be entirely probably that people on his own staff think that he's doing a lousy job."
"In what may turn out to be one of the biggest free-falls in the history of presidential polling, President Bush's job-approval rating among African Americans has dropped to 2 percent, according to a new NBC/Wall Street Journal poll."
posted by 31d1 at 12:38 PM on December 23, 2005
well yeah, but it's not like black people vote (or if they do, have their votes actually counted), so that's kind of meaningless, 31d1...
posted by hincandenza at 12:40 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by hincandenza at 12:40 PM on December 23, 2005
Once that happens, then yes, you'll see mass demonstrations, boycotts, breadlines, etc.
Probably. But it will be largely too late as all the machinery for the police state will be in place.
A review of history will show which side the largest portion of the "enforcement" arm of the judiciary and military will side. On the side that cut's them their check. For when economic options grow fewer being a paid goon that sticks to the script will be the intelligent choice. You have to head that off before it happens. I don't think we will "win", otherwise. At that point he best we will do is survive.
After the crash the Oligarchs who control this country, while diminished in umbers slightly, will live even better than they do now once they can shed the pretense of integrity and equally recourse to the law. Because the rest of us have our wealth represented by scraps of paper. THEY own all the actual assets and have the guns and the goons to use them. Our cash will inflate or devalue, their assets will increase in value. Argentina. Mexico. On and on. The new "Gilded Age." Roves wet dream.
Take a look around. See where we are heading. We can buy that new Razor Phone or we can sacrifice a little NOW and take back the engine of this society. It's not about conservation. It's about taking control.
It's interesting. People bitch and bitch. But you when show them how to really make things change they just mumble to themselves and shuffle away. Ultimately 99% of this country, the left included (especially - because we are supposed to KNOW better) does not really care all that much. Not enough to be uncomfortable. And that is what it will take. Or we (the left) can keep doing what are doing now and fail.
posted by tkchrist at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2005
Probably. But it will be largely too late as all the machinery for the police state will be in place.
A review of history will show which side the largest portion of the "enforcement" arm of the judiciary and military will side. On the side that cut's them their check. For when economic options grow fewer being a paid goon that sticks to the script will be the intelligent choice. You have to head that off before it happens. I don't think we will "win", otherwise. At that point he best we will do is survive.
After the crash the Oligarchs who control this country, while diminished in umbers slightly, will live even better than they do now once they can shed the pretense of integrity and equally recourse to the law. Because the rest of us have our wealth represented by scraps of paper. THEY own all the actual assets and have the guns and the goons to use them. Our cash will inflate or devalue, their assets will increase in value. Argentina. Mexico. On and on. The new "Gilded Age." Roves wet dream.
Take a look around. See where we are heading. We can buy that new Razor Phone or we can sacrifice a little NOW and take back the engine of this society. It's not about conservation. It's about taking control.
It's interesting. People bitch and bitch. But you when show them how to really make things change they just mumble to themselves and shuffle away. Ultimately 99% of this country, the left included (especially - because we are supposed to KNOW better) does not really care all that much. Not enough to be uncomfortable. And that is what it will take. Or we (the left) can keep doing what are doing now and fail.
posted by tkchrist at 12:49 PM on December 23, 2005
When I'm cursing the situation here in China, at least I can remind myself that things are getting better overall.
When are Americans going to be able to tell themselves the same thing?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:56 PM on December 23, 2005
When are Americans going to be able to tell themselves the same thing?
posted by [expletive deleted] at 12:56 PM on December 23, 2005
As usual, the libertarians (Economist Bill Peirce who's running for gov to be exact) are the only party with enough common sense to say this is wrong.
Blackwell? Strickland? Others? Too busy flinging mud at each other to care about the issues.
posted by StephenV at 1:02 PM on December 23, 2005
Blackwell? Strickland? Others? Too busy flinging mud at each other to care about the issues.
posted by StephenV at 1:02 PM on December 23, 2005
When are Americans going to be able to tell themselves the same thing?
We have grown weak, simple, and fat. Yet there is still a great nation underneath it here in America. We have been more a positive force in this world than a negative one. There is a danger of that reversing if things go on as they are now.
The US has always had the kooks - the Ohioians - running around. Hell. What do you expect? This country was founded by kooks — we sucked the world dry of it's kooks. Luckily we had enough kooks with integrity and principle instead of kooks with simple blind ideals.
Perhaps a generation or two of kooks has to die off and we can come back to greatness.
posted by tkchrist at 1:10 PM on December 23, 2005
We have grown weak, simple, and fat. Yet there is still a great nation underneath it here in America. We have been more a positive force in this world than a negative one. There is a danger of that reversing if things go on as they are now.
The US has always had the kooks - the Ohioians - running around. Hell. What do you expect? This country was founded by kooks — we sucked the world dry of it's kooks. Luckily we had enough kooks with integrity and principle instead of kooks with simple blind ideals.
Perhaps a generation or two of kooks has to die off and we can come back to greatness.
posted by tkchrist at 1:10 PM on December 23, 2005
Metafilter: Perhaps a generation or two of kooks has to die off and we can come back to greatness.
posted by stenseng at 1:26 PM on December 23, 2005
THEY own all the actual assets and have the guns and the goons to use them.
Guess we'd better hurry-up and DIS-arm ourselves while we still have the chance, eh?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 1:30 PM on December 23, 2005
Guess we'd better hurry-up and DIS-arm ourselves while we still have the chance, eh?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 1:30 PM on December 23, 2005
They don't have all the guns, thankfully.
posted by zoogleplex at 1:38 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by zoogleplex at 1:38 PM on December 23, 2005
Guess we'd better hurry-up and DIS-arm ourselves while we still have the chance, eh?
I will assume your being sarcastic.
This is the only reason I favor owning firearms.
Like other lefties I used to think that was position held by militia freaks and paranoids and that, despite my upbringing in a military household with guns and hunting, guns = bad. I used to laugh at people who say what I'm saying now. But it ain't funny anymore.
NOW who is being paranoid? Read the last for or five threads on this administration. Guns = necessary.
It dawned on me after the right made their shameless power grab "So these are the frigg'n nuts with all the guns? Great."
You WANT people like me with guns. At the very least you want the Wingnuts to know we wouldn't go down without a fight.
It's like having kids. Blue Staters are not reproducing and Red Staters are having multiple litters they then teach that cave men rode dinosaurs and Saddam caused 9/11.
Blue staters you better start fucking and having kids like crazy. Gays.. adopt as many a you can. And buy guns. The one purchase you should make this year. Firearms - a gift for the lefty who cares.
posted by tkchrist at 1:47 PM on December 23, 2005
I will assume your being sarcastic.
This is the only reason I favor owning firearms.
Like other lefties I used to think that was position held by militia freaks and paranoids and that, despite my upbringing in a military household with guns and hunting, guns = bad. I used to laugh at people who say what I'm saying now. But it ain't funny anymore.
NOW who is being paranoid? Read the last for or five threads on this administration. Guns = necessary.
It dawned on me after the right made their shameless power grab "So these are the frigg'n nuts with all the guns? Great."
You WANT people like me with guns. At the very least you want the Wingnuts to know we wouldn't go down without a fight.
It's like having kids. Blue Staters are not reproducing and Red Staters are having multiple litters they then teach that cave men rode dinosaurs and Saddam caused 9/11.
Blue staters you better start fucking and having kids like crazy. Gays.. adopt as many a you can. And buy guns. The one purchase you should make this year. Firearms - a gift for the lefty who cares.
posted by tkchrist at 1:47 PM on December 23, 2005
*rolls eyes* the only thing an armed population will accomplish is more killing within that population. Think of all the weapons the army has at its disposal. think they are worried about some deer rifles or handguns? Yeah that's going to topple the system. Armed resistance only further legitimizes the current power grab. Especially once it is effectively branded. Don't count on mass defections of the army, they are trained pretty heavy to respond to authority. Economic resistance? Nice idea in theory, but how do you mainstream the idea and make sure the right message gets through? There too a simple rebranding of the process neuters it's message, and economic resistance is something that strikes at something deeper then an insane governors power grab.
The underling problems will not be fixed anytime soon, we may scab over incidents like what is happening in Ohio or with the USA Patriot Act and some pretense of sanity may return, but the seeds of cultural destruction are well planted. Will it happen in a generation or two/ i don't know, but doubt it.
incidentally, most revolutions do not occur when things are at there worst, but when things start to get better.
posted by edgeways at 1:48 PM on December 23, 2005
The underling problems will not be fixed anytime soon, we may scab over incidents like what is happening in Ohio or with the USA Patriot Act and some pretense of sanity may return, but the seeds of cultural destruction are well planted. Will it happen in a generation or two/ i don't know, but doubt it.
incidentally, most revolutions do not occur when things are at there worst, but when things start to get better.
posted by edgeways at 1:48 PM on December 23, 2005
*rolls eyes* the only thing an armed population will accomplish is more killing within that population. Think of all the weapons the army has at its disposal. think they are worried about some deer rifles or handguns?
Roll your eyes all you want.
But. Perhaps you have never heard of this thing in Iraq called an Insurgency. Once you exhaust non violent means low intensity conflict with small arms is all you have. It is how a weaker force reaches political settlment when you have nothing to lose. If you're disarmed? Well. Maybe you heard of this thing called the holocaust? AS over used as it is by the NRA there is a reason tyrants disarm a populace.
And the point is not to fight a war. The point is to not be completly helpless BEFORE a war starts.
Nice idea in theory, but how do you mainstream the idea and make sure the right message gets through? There too a simple rebranding of the process ...Blah blah blah
Uh. What?
Soooo what you seem to advocate is essentially "bend over you eventually learn to like it."
No thank you. Consider yourself part of the problem.
posted by tkchrist at 2:01 PM on December 23, 2005
Roll your eyes all you want.
But. Perhaps you have never heard of this thing in Iraq called an Insurgency. Once you exhaust non violent means low intensity conflict with small arms is all you have. It is how a weaker force reaches political settlment when you have nothing to lose. If you're disarmed? Well. Maybe you heard of this thing called the holocaust? AS over used as it is by the NRA there is a reason tyrants disarm a populace.
And the point is not to fight a war. The point is to not be completly helpless BEFORE a war starts.
Nice idea in theory, but how do you mainstream the idea and make sure the right message gets through? There too a simple rebranding of the process ...Blah blah blah
Uh. What?
Soooo what you seem to advocate is essentially "bend over you eventually learn to like it."
No thank you. Consider yourself part of the problem.
posted by tkchrist at 2:01 PM on December 23, 2005
"Think of all the weapons the army has at its disposal. think they are worried about some deer rifles or handguns?"
Well, I really hate to make this point, but the insurgents in Iraq don't seem to be much better armed than the US populace, and (sadly) our troops are taking a lot of morale-damaging casualties there.
(on preview, what tk said with more vehemence.)
Back to this stupid law, what really irks me is that there are people out there who think this sort of thing is a good idea, and perfectly in line with the Constitution and the ideals of this nation. I mean, come on, can they not see how it starts to resemble KGB checkpoints and tactics? Sheesh!
posted by zoogleplex at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2005
Well, I really hate to make this point, but the insurgents in Iraq don't seem to be much better armed than the US populace, and (sadly) our troops are taking a lot of morale-damaging casualties there.
(on preview, what tk said with more vehemence.)
Back to this stupid law, what really irks me is that there are people out there who think this sort of thing is a good idea, and perfectly in line with the Constitution and the ideals of this nation. I mean, come on, can they not see how it starts to resemble KGB checkpoints and tactics? Sheesh!
posted by zoogleplex at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2005
edgeways wrote: think [the army] are worried about some deer rifles or handguns?
I'll be sure to ask 'em once they get back from Baghdad.
posted by ryanrs at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2005
I'll be sure to ask 'em once they get back from Baghdad.
posted by ryanrs at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2005
Ouch. Yeah I thought of that one too.
Any actual Ohioans here to weigh in?
posted by zoogleplex at 2:08 PM on December 23, 2005
Any actual Ohioans here to weigh in?
posted by zoogleplex at 2:08 PM on December 23, 2005
Back to this stupid law, what really irks me is that there are people out there who think this sort of thing is a good idea
Like. If they could point to problem it will solve?
I fully expect in five years, if we don't wake up, some crazy-ass state senator will advocate mass "preemptive" arrests of a four block radius around the scene of a crime. I suppose statistics WILL be on his side.
posted by tkchrist at 2:09 PM on December 23, 2005
Like. If they could point to problem it will solve?
I fully expect in five years, if we don't wake up, some crazy-ass state senator will advocate mass "preemptive" arrests of a four block radius around the scene of a crime. I suppose statistics WILL be on his side.
posted by tkchrist at 2:09 PM on December 23, 2005
Um, the police could already ask you for ID randomly all they wanted. Nothing new there.
They could also already prohibit you from driving your car on any public street if you didn't have a driver's license.
Now, asking you if you belong to any organization on a list you've never seen is pretty silly. But I assume they'll just take your word for it when you check the "no" box, right? Surely lying about membership in Al Quaeda is not a worse crime than actually being a member, so if you're a member, you probably don't have any qualms about checking the "no" box to get your driver's license.
Now, I'm not trying to say this isn't a dumb law, or disagree with the general consensus that anyone who doesn't live by a beach is an inbred jackass -- god forbid -- but let's just simma down a bit. After all, hair trigger outrage is what loses elections for the smart folks, i'nt it?
posted by JekPorkins at 3:06 PM on December 23, 2005
They could also already prohibit you from driving your car on any public street if you didn't have a driver's license.
Now, asking you if you belong to any organization on a list you've never seen is pretty silly. But I assume they'll just take your word for it when you check the "no" box, right? Surely lying about membership in Al Quaeda is not a worse crime than actually being a member, so if you're a member, you probably don't have any qualms about checking the "no" box to get your driver's license.
Now, I'm not trying to say this isn't a dumb law, or disagree with the general consensus that anyone who doesn't live by a beach is an inbred jackass -- god forbid -- but let's just simma down a bit. After all, hair trigger outrage is what loses elections for the smart folks, i'nt it?
posted by JekPorkins at 3:06 PM on December 23, 2005
oops. Italics mishap. Emphasis unintentional. Blast.
posted by JekPorkins at 3:07 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by JekPorkins at 3:07 PM on December 23, 2005
Um, the police could already ask you for ID randomly all they wanted. True. And they couldn't arrest you, impound your car or harrass you for saying no. Now they can.
but let's just simma down a bit
Let's not. I think the problem is the reasonable folks have simma'd down too much lately. Nothing hair triggar about it. Like you said cops can do some of this crap now. And that's wrong. Always has been. We done simma'd down enough.
posted by tkchrist at 3:33 PM on December 23, 2005
but let's just simma down a bit
Let's not. I think the problem is the reasonable folks have simma'd down too much lately. Nothing hair triggar about it. Like you said cops can do some of this crap now. And that's wrong. Always has been. We done simma'd down enough.
posted by tkchrist at 3:33 PM on December 23, 2005
Armed resistance only further legitimizes the current power grab.
Damn. And all this time I thought it was denial, indifference, and capitulation that legitimized power grabs.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 3:36 PM on December 23, 2005
Damn. And all this time I thought it was denial, indifference, and capitulation that legitimized power grabs.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 3:36 PM on December 23, 2005
tkchrist, I acknowledge your point that the left isn't doing a whole lot, but I don't see why you think purchasing luxury objects is so important. Why on Earth does it matter if I do or don't buy an iPod, or a Passat (wouldn't a Prius be more lefty?), or a RAZR? You seem to be falling into the same error as the people you criticize: grasping at a straw and then tying to justify it. We're repeatedly told, by the government and by advertisers, that the only way that we as individuals can make a difference in the world is by buying something (or not buying something). You've accepted and repeated this message, but failed to explain how my iPod props up the current government.
posted by hattifattener at 3:40 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by hattifattener at 3:40 PM on December 23, 2005
One question one observation
Question to lawfites : Assuming Patrioct Act succumbs its impopularity , could any single state simply re-instate the Act with a different name ? Because I don't see any politicial reason for this Ohio Patriot Act unless we see it as an attempt to say "we'll do this with or without you" or yet another attempt to show they're doing sumthing about terrists...distracting from seriously more relevant matters.
Observation: I wonder how long till companies have to demonstrate their financial transaction don't help terrorists. It would be a interesting to have personal financial disclosure as well...as nobody can know if you're financing terrorists...as the preventive doctrine is approved by Bush, let's preventively scrutinize your bank account.
posted by elpapacito at 4:14 PM on December 23, 2005
Question to lawfites : Assuming Patrioct Act succumbs its impopularity , could any single state simply re-instate the Act with a different name ? Because I don't see any politicial reason for this Ohio Patriot Act unless we see it as an attempt to say "we'll do this with or without you" or yet another attempt to show they're doing sumthing about terrists...distracting from seriously more relevant matters.
Observation: I wonder how long till companies have to demonstrate their financial transaction don't help terrorists. It would be a interesting to have personal financial disclosure as well...as nobody can know if you're financing terrorists...as the preventive doctrine is approved by Bush, let's preventively scrutinize your bank account.
posted by elpapacito at 4:14 PM on December 23, 2005
And they couldn't arrest you, impound your car or harrass you for saying no. Now they can.
Actually, yes, they could (except for "harassing," whatever you mean by that - but the Ohio law doesn't expressly authorize "harassment," does it?). You think it's wrong that cops have the constitutional powers that the supreme court has recognized time and time again? Fine. That makes you a conservative activist who doesn't respect precedent and res judicata, doesn't it? Or maybe you think you can just demand the reversal of supreme court decisions you don't agree with.
Outrage all you want, but when the dumbasses win the white house again because rational people don't want people like you to have their way . . . well . . . I guess you can just keep on outraging.
And to elpapacito:
Answer to question: They wouldn't even have to change the name. They would probably need to omit the stuff that applies to federal law enforcement, since the states don't have the power to regulate the federal executive branch.
And we do have personal financial disclosure already. We've had it for decades.
posted by JekPorkins at 4:19 PM on December 23, 2005
Actually, yes, they could (except for "harassing," whatever you mean by that - but the Ohio law doesn't expressly authorize "harassment," does it?). You think it's wrong that cops have the constitutional powers that the supreme court has recognized time and time again? Fine. That makes you a conservative activist who doesn't respect precedent and res judicata, doesn't it? Or maybe you think you can just demand the reversal of supreme court decisions you don't agree with.
Outrage all you want, but when the dumbasses win the white house again because rational people don't want people like you to have their way . . . well . . . I guess you can just keep on outraging.
And to elpapacito:
Answer to question: They wouldn't even have to change the name. They would probably need to omit the stuff that applies to federal law enforcement, since the states don't have the power to regulate the federal executive branch.
And we do have personal financial disclosure already. We've had it for decades.
posted by JekPorkins at 4:19 PM on December 23, 2005
when the dumbasses win the white house again because rational people don't want people like you to have their way
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
posted by languagehat at 4:53 PM on December 23, 2005
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
posted by languagehat at 4:53 PM on December 23, 2005
It's supposed to mean that one of the factors that contributed to Bush's reelection, in my opinion, was that a lot of people voted against Kerry because they didn't like the people who were so shrill and over the top in their opposition to Bush.
Let's try not to repeat that.
posted by JekPorkins at 5:03 PM on December 23, 2005
Let's try not to repeat that.
posted by JekPorkins at 5:03 PM on December 23, 2005
JekPorkins,
Actually what loses us smart people elections is the stupid people are easily manipulated. They hear a terror alert every couple weeks or so (which, incidently, boosted Bush by 2-3 points every time they happened, often coincided with bad news for the administration, usually turned out to be news the administration had been sitting on for months, and effectively stopped after the election) and jump, looking for daddy to protect them and their way of life.
While I don't agree with tkchrist's solution, your's just smacks of "People who read books shouldn't talk down to the rest of us", which isn't an answer either. Instead of sulking maybe you should look into an issue a little deeper than your local color six oclock news station does. And this whole "shrill" business is utter nonsense. The same talking heads who can't understand all of this "Irrational Bush Hatred" are the same idiots who tried to take Clinton down for his personal life. Get some perspective.
posted by slapshot57 at 5:55 PM on December 23, 2005
Actually what loses us smart people elections is the stupid people are easily manipulated. They hear a terror alert every couple weeks or so (which, incidently, boosted Bush by 2-3 points every time they happened, often coincided with bad news for the administration, usually turned out to be news the administration had been sitting on for months, and effectively stopped after the election) and jump, looking for daddy to protect them and their way of life.
While I don't agree with tkchrist's solution, your's just smacks of "People who read books shouldn't talk down to the rest of us", which isn't an answer either. Instead of sulking maybe you should look into an issue a little deeper than your local color six oclock news station does. And this whole "shrill" business is utter nonsense. The same talking heads who can't understand all of this "Irrational Bush Hatred" are the same idiots who tried to take Clinton down for his personal life. Get some perspective.
posted by slapshot57 at 5:55 PM on December 23, 2005
No thank you. Consider yourself part of the problem.
mmm I see, should I be watching out for you with your guns?
The counter claim to your Godwinism is is Gandhi and India and a number of other examples.
The US army has lost about 2 thousand people over 4 years. On a visceral level that is a lot, but proportionally it is very very small.
Moral is low in part because this is a war that is hard to justify, the goals are hard to achieve. Armed rebellion at home? Do you even think for a moment that would be hard to justify overwhelming force to crush it? Do you think that 1 tank or helicopter could not kill or wipe out large portions of any fledgling armed resistance?
Additionally the insurgents in Iraq have access to large amounts of explosives and at least some continual source of ak47 type weapons. Where do you propose such weapons come from here? Canada? China? Mexico?
There is also the matter of restraint. As much as we complain amount the use of force in Iraq there is a certain amount of restraint. If he US was truly like WWII Germany there would be massive military presence there and there would be no compunction whatsoever about public killings for minor offenses. An armed resistance at home would allow for such unbridled use of force here. Do you want to be the reason given for complete suspension of civil law? Where armed solders openly patrol the streets and all pretense of elections are suspended for the duration of the crisis? because believe you me such actions would not only unequaled allow for the use of all necessary force -at home-, but would see GWB and more like him in office indefinitely.
You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. This is exactly the same bullshit thinking that has us in our current situation.
What you advocate is the same thing Mcveigh tried, it is what OBL tried.
It is true that a small scale resistance can fight a protracted war against a larger power, but they need significant support from the local population and a source of continual replenishment of lost troops. NOTHING like that exists in modern America. In addition all forms of communication are easily controlled and manipulated so any pro resistance propaganda would easily be suppressed and marganilized.
We both agree that the current actions are reprehensible and i understand you are angry and frustrated, but I feel strongly that armed violence will do nothing to solve the problem. It is a Hollywood solution, the fact is revolutions have a historically small chance of success. When I went through the data some years back it was along the lines of 2 - 4%.
I know you disagree with what I have wrote, but can I ask, please, no more veiled or otherwise threats against myself.
posted by edgeways at 7:04 PM on December 23, 2005
mmm I see, should I be watching out for you with your guns?
The counter claim to your Godwinism is is Gandhi and India and a number of other examples.
The US army has lost about 2 thousand people over 4 years. On a visceral level that is a lot, but proportionally it is very very small.
Moral is low in part because this is a war that is hard to justify, the goals are hard to achieve. Armed rebellion at home? Do you even think for a moment that would be hard to justify overwhelming force to crush it? Do you think that 1 tank or helicopter could not kill or wipe out large portions of any fledgling armed resistance?
Additionally the insurgents in Iraq have access to large amounts of explosives and at least some continual source of ak47 type weapons. Where do you propose such weapons come from here? Canada? China? Mexico?
There is also the matter of restraint. As much as we complain amount the use of force in Iraq there is a certain amount of restraint. If he US was truly like WWII Germany there would be massive military presence there and there would be no compunction whatsoever about public killings for minor offenses. An armed resistance at home would allow for such unbridled use of force here. Do you want to be the reason given for complete suspension of civil law? Where armed solders openly patrol the streets and all pretense of elections are suspended for the duration of the crisis? because believe you me such actions would not only unequaled allow for the use of all necessary force -at home-, but would see GWB and more like him in office indefinitely.
You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise. This is exactly the same bullshit thinking that has us in our current situation.
What you advocate is the same thing Mcveigh tried, it is what OBL tried.
It is true that a small scale resistance can fight a protracted war against a larger power, but they need significant support from the local population and a source of continual replenishment of lost troops. NOTHING like that exists in modern America. In addition all forms of communication are easily controlled and manipulated so any pro resistance propaganda would easily be suppressed and marganilized.
We both agree that the current actions are reprehensible and i understand you are angry and frustrated, but I feel strongly that armed violence will do nothing to solve the problem. It is a Hollywood solution, the fact is revolutions have a historically small chance of success. When I went through the data some years back it was along the lines of 2 - 4%.
I know you disagree with what I have wrote, but can I ask, please, no more veiled or otherwise threats against myself.
posted by edgeways at 7:04 PM on December 23, 2005
think it's pretty clear who's winning, psmealey. There's a whole lot of people, clearly, who are mortally fucking terrified, as if they think 500 million terrorists are going to parachute into the US simultaneously and, at two of them per US resident, will physically tear each of our bodies in half, and then eat us raw while we're still alive - like the Reavers are coming or something.posted by zoogleplex at 1:56 PM EST on December 23 [!]
I think they need to put down their Left Behind Books and watch some nice war movies. You know, the hokey stuff from 1942 when it was easy to tell who the bad guys were-- they were the Germans and the Japanese who were torturing people and asking for papers and holding people without trial. And the good guys were the Americans who smoked cigarettes and cracked jokes and rescued the downtrodden. Meanwhile back at home little Bobby scoured the streets for bits of aluminum foil and string and saved his paper route money to buy U.S. Savings Bonds.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:25 PM on December 23, 2005
I think they need to put down their Left Behind Books and watch some nice war movies. You know, the hokey stuff from 1942 when it was easy to tell who the bad guys were-- they were the Germans and the Japanese who were torturing people and asking for papers and holding people without trial. And the good guys were the Americans who smoked cigarettes and cracked jokes and rescued the downtrodden. Meanwhile back at home little Bobby scoured the streets for bits of aluminum foil and string and saved his paper route money to buy U.S. Savings Bonds.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:25 PM on December 23, 2005
Actually, my point was that people who claim to be smart and read books shouldn't run around screaming nonsense at the top of their lungs and waving their arms in the air when they think other people are stupid. It tends to hurt their credibility a bit.
posted by JekPorkins at 7:35 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by JekPorkins at 7:35 PM on December 23, 2005
Remember when Americans were proud to be courageous? Now Americans just cower at the thought of the Boogey Man big, bad Osama coming to git them. "Oh yeah, take my rights if I can think I will be safe." A fool's game and a coward's game, yet they wrap themselves in the flag, proclaim patriotism an all manner of awesomely wonderful sounding blather. Fucking Pussies!
posted by caddis at 7:37 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by caddis at 7:37 PM on December 23, 2005
The law seems pretty unconstitutional (probably both the Ohio and US Constitutions).
Lots of interesting points herein, but I suspect the law, if as represented herein goes into effect, it will be quickly stricken down by the Courts.
Ohio: round on the ends; scary in the middle?
posted by ParisParamus at 7:39 PM on December 23, 2005
Lots of interesting points herein, but I suspect the law, if as represented herein goes into effect, it will be quickly stricken down by the Courts.
Ohio: round on the ends; scary in the middle?
posted by ParisParamus at 7:39 PM on December 23, 2005
I was just reading a book by Chuck Palahniuk; here's a passage I will now quote to you all:
In college, we had to read about people shown pictures of gum disease. These were photographs of rotten gums and crooked, stained teeth, and the idea was to see how these images would affect the way people cared for their own teeth.
One group was shown mouths only a little rotten. The second was shown only moderately rotten gums. The third group was shown horrible blackened mouths, the gums peeled down, soft and bleeding, the teeth turned brown or missing.
The first study group, they took care of their teeth the same as they always had. The second group, they brushed and flossed a little more. The third group, they just gave up. They stopped brushing and flossing and just waited for their teeth to turn black.
This effect the study called "narcotization."
When the problem looks too big, when we're shown too much reality, we tend to shut down.
I think we are somewhere between the second and third groups. Sure, we're pissed. What can be done? Messing with the economy isn't going to do it. I'm not preaching open revolt in the streets or anything, but there will come a point when it's time to shit or get off the pot. I encourage all of you to attempt to wake up those around you.
posted by schlaager at 8:06 PM on December 23, 2005
In college, we had to read about people shown pictures of gum disease. These were photographs of rotten gums and crooked, stained teeth, and the idea was to see how these images would affect the way people cared for their own teeth.
One group was shown mouths only a little rotten. The second was shown only moderately rotten gums. The third group was shown horrible blackened mouths, the gums peeled down, soft and bleeding, the teeth turned brown or missing.
The first study group, they took care of their teeth the same as they always had. The second group, they brushed and flossed a little more. The third group, they just gave up. They stopped brushing and flossing and just waited for their teeth to turn black.
This effect the study called "narcotization."
When the problem looks too big, when we're shown too much reality, we tend to shut down.
I think we are somewhere between the second and third groups. Sure, we're pissed. What can be done? Messing with the economy isn't going to do it. I'm not preaching open revolt in the streets or anything, but there will come a point when it's time to shit or get off the pot. I encourage all of you to attempt to wake up those around you.
posted by schlaager at 8:06 PM on December 23, 2005
"The first study group, they took care of their teeth the same as they always had. The second group, they brushed and flossed a little more. The third group, they just gave up. They stopped brushing and flossing and just waited for their teeth to turn black."
Problem is, I think as with a lot of things, Chuck Palahniuk is full of shit, in his particularly fashionably nihilistic way.
"You've accepted and repeated this message, but failed to explain how my iPod props up the current government."
It's not the product that props up the government. It's the transaction. Money fuels everything, including government. Slow down the flow of the economy, even a little, and you're likely to see some immediate results.
Is that the solution? Probably not. People have been trying for years to figure out the answer to asymmetric warfare on the battlefield of global capital.
Closest anyone's come up with is that nugget of the Doors':
"They have the guns, but we got the numbers..."
A less than satisfactory situation.
posted by stenseng at 8:33 PM on December 23, 2005
Problem is, I think as with a lot of things, Chuck Palahniuk is full of shit, in his particularly fashionably nihilistic way.
"You've accepted and repeated this message, but failed to explain how my iPod props up the current government."
It's not the product that props up the government. It's the transaction. Money fuels everything, including government. Slow down the flow of the economy, even a little, and you're likely to see some immediate results.
Is that the solution? Probably not. People have been trying for years to figure out the answer to asymmetric warfare on the battlefield of global capital.
Closest anyone's come up with is that nugget of the Doors':
"They have the guns, but we got the numbers..."
A less than satisfactory situation.
posted by stenseng at 8:33 PM on December 23, 2005
Incidently this Taft is directly related to President Taft, he is the great-grandson of William Howard Taft.
posted by edgeways at 12:38 AM on December 24, 2005
posted by edgeways at 12:38 AM on December 24, 2005
I only have one thing to say about this. And I believe many of you already know what it is.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:20 AM on December 24, 2005
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:20 AM on December 24, 2005
Welcome to the banana republic USA, formerly a democratic free country. Happy holidays!
posted by LB at 11:25 AM on December 24, 2005
posted by LB at 11:25 AM on December 24, 2005
I live in Ohio, and I'm quickly beginning to hate Ohio.
I can't believe he's signing this.
Sieg Heil!
posted by JoshTeeters at 5:42 PM on December 24, 2005
I can't believe he's signing this.
Sieg Heil!
posted by JoshTeeters at 5:42 PM on December 24, 2005
He can sign it in good confidence, because it won't last its first legal test. Best of all, it'll cost his state millions to defend when first tested, and the ACLU will enjoy the involuntary donation (covering their legal fees.)
He's already the most disliked governor in polling history - what does he have to fear from more public dislike?
I mourn for our country, but only as long as it takes to get to the voting booth.
posted by FormlessOne at 6:29 PM on December 24, 2005
He's already the most disliked governor in polling history - what does he have to fear from more public dislike?
I mourn for our country, but only as long as it takes to get to the voting booth.
posted by FormlessOne at 6:29 PM on December 24, 2005
My wife and I just watched The Pianist (about the Nazi occupation in Warsaw) and she said "it's a good thing nothing like this could happen today, right?" and I thought about this post.
shudder
posted by .:DataWhat?:. at 9:36 PM on December 25, 2005
shudder
posted by .:DataWhat?:. at 9:36 PM on December 25, 2005
It's not the product that props up the government. It's the transaction. Money fuels everything, including government. Slow down the flow of the economy, even a little, and you're likely to see some immediate results.
I'm not sure those are the results you want to get.
Actually what loses us smart people elections is the stupid people are easily manipulated.
If we're so smart, why aren't we manipulating the stupid people in our favor? Maybe we're not as smart as we think we are.
Think of all the weapons the army has at its disposal. think they are worried about some deer rifles or handguns? Yeah that's going to topple the system. Don't count on mass defections of the army, they are trained pretty heavy to respond to authority.
The US military is good at warfighting - taking territory from an opposing military force, and destroying that force. It's not much good at oppressing civilian populations, and as for being "trained to respond to authority," no amount of training would prevent it from simply dissolving if forced to fight the US civilian population.
posted by me & my monkey at 12:47 PM on December 26, 2005
I'm not sure those are the results you want to get.
Actually what loses us smart people elections is the stupid people are easily manipulated.
If we're so smart, why aren't we manipulating the stupid people in our favor? Maybe we're not as smart as we think we are.
Think of all the weapons the army has at its disposal. think they are worried about some deer rifles or handguns? Yeah that's going to topple the system. Don't count on mass defections of the army, they are trained pretty heavy to respond to authority.
The US military is good at warfighting - taking territory from an opposing military force, and destroying that force. It's not much good at oppressing civilian populations, and as for being "trained to respond to authority," no amount of training would prevent it from simply dissolving if forced to fight the US civilian population.
posted by me & my monkey at 12:47 PM on December 26, 2005
"Think of all the weapons the army has at its disposal. think they are worried about some deer rifles or handguns? Yeah that's going to topple the system. Don't count on mass defections of the army, they are trained pretty heavy to respond to authority."
Clearly you didn't see Red Dawn.
Wolverines!
posted by hatchetjack at 9:24 AM on December 27, 2005
Clearly you didn't see Red Dawn.
Wolverines!
posted by hatchetjack at 9:24 AM on December 27, 2005
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(for democracy)
posted by Devils Rancher at 9:03 AM on December 23, 2005