Christmas is a Big Lie
December 23, 2005 12:18 PM Subscribe
The War on Christmas. A very brief overview of the war Christians have waged against other religious holidays since roughly 400AD. Just a reminder of the reason for the season.
I just recently learned about this, from a song that presents approximately the same information, neatly wrapped in christmas music form (Disclaimer: written and performed by a friend).
posted by adamkempa at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by adamkempa at 12:30 PM on December 23, 2005
When I was in elementary school, Winter Break was called "Christmas Vacation" and Spring Break was called "Easter Vacation."
How come nobody defends Easter? Isn't it just as significant to Christians as Christmas?
posted by b_thinky at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2005
How come nobody defends Easter? Isn't it just as significant to Christians as Christmas?
posted by b_thinky at 12:57 PM on December 23, 2005
There may be some truth in some of the info here, but I am kind of irritated at the popular notion that the date for Christmas was chosen deliberately to coincide with other pagan holidays. The evidence seems tilted against this.
posted by Heminator at 1:04 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by Heminator at 1:04 PM on December 23, 2005
b_thinky: As an outsider (secular Jew), I always just assumed the Christians had admitted to themselves that Easter was primarily a pagan holiday, but they were still in denial about Christmas.
(Channukah is a third-tier holiday for Jews; it's only important because it competes with Christmas and makes it easier to retain the hearts and souls of Jewish childen.
posted by JMOZ at 1:05 PM on December 23, 2005
(Channukah is a third-tier holiday for Jews; it's only important because it competes with Christmas and makes it easier to retain the hearts and souls of Jewish childen.
posted by JMOZ at 1:05 PM on December 23, 2005
I always just assumed the Christians had admitted to themselves that Easter was primarily a pagan holiday....
Although there are definitely "pagan" elements to Easter celebrations, I'd say that (in the scheme of things) it's probably less non-Christian than Christmas. For one thing, Jesus' crucifixion took place during Pesach (typically near Easter) whereas Jesus' birth probably didn't happen during Winter. Bunnies and eggs aside, I can't think of any other Easter traditions that don't have Christian origins.
And, actually, I'd say (again in the scheme of things) that Easter is more important to Christianity than Christmas. Without the Ressurection, Jesus wouldn't be the Messiah. Sure one could say the same about virgin birth, etc., but the two Jesus birth stories in the Gospels (Matthew & Luke) are quite different, yet the crucifixion/ressurection story is pretty darn similar across the board.
Caveat: I'm Jewish, but have a religious studies background with a New Testament focus.
posted by joseph_elmhurst at 1:17 PM on December 23, 2005
Although there are definitely "pagan" elements to Easter celebrations, I'd say that (in the scheme of things) it's probably less non-Christian than Christmas. For one thing, Jesus' crucifixion took place during Pesach (typically near Easter) whereas Jesus' birth probably didn't happen during Winter. Bunnies and eggs aside, I can't think of any other Easter traditions that don't have Christian origins.
And, actually, I'd say (again in the scheme of things) that Easter is more important to Christianity than Christmas. Without the Ressurection, Jesus wouldn't be the Messiah. Sure one could say the same about virgin birth, etc., but the two Jesus birth stories in the Gospels (Matthew & Luke) are quite different, yet the crucifixion/ressurection story is pretty darn similar across the board.
Caveat: I'm Jewish, but have a religious studies background with a New Testament focus.
posted by joseph_elmhurst at 1:17 PM on December 23, 2005
Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol (1844?) is credited with the Christmas revival, many customs had been largely set aside in previous Puritan generations. "Scrooge" was not just a cranky old man, he was representative of all the people who were anti-Christmas.
posted by stbalbach at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by stbalbach at 1:18 PM on December 23, 2005
I had this discussion on another forum and I pointed out that nothing in culture appears out of thin air - it builds upon the previous ideas, why would Christmas 'traditions' be any different?
And have the church sought actively destroy these traditions or invest them with Christian meaning? They seem to be traditions that have been co-opted by Christian people and not referenced in the bible unless there is a missing chapter called Manners 16:4 "Thou shalt bathe thy living space in lights adorned on the Fir tree and verily thy shall not refuse a kiss 'neath Mystletow, but not accepeth the tongue unlest yee be marryed." If anything it shows the malability and dogged resilience of faiths. And this is not a grand revelation of Christmas because this type of article appears every Christmas.
Should the Christian faith die a death I wouldn't be surprised if another special occasions fall on December 25th. If you can't move the mountain, then you must go to it.
posted by Navek Rednam at 1:19 PM on December 23, 2005
And have the church sought actively destroy these traditions or invest them with Christian meaning? They seem to be traditions that have been co-opted by Christian people and not referenced in the bible unless there is a missing chapter called Manners 16:4 "Thou shalt bathe thy living space in lights adorned on the Fir tree and verily thy shall not refuse a kiss 'neath Mystletow, but not accepeth the tongue unlest yee be marryed." If anything it shows the malability and dogged resilience of faiths. And this is not a grand revelation of Christmas because this type of article appears every Christmas.
Should the Christian faith die a death I wouldn't be surprised if another special occasions fall on December 25th. If you can't move the mountain, then you must go to it.
posted by Navek Rednam at 1:19 PM on December 23, 2005
I had this discussion on another forum and I pointed out that nothing in culture appears out of thin air - it builds upon the previous ideas, why would Christmas 'traditions' be any different?
And have the church sought actively destroy these traditions or invest them with Christian meaning? They seem to be traditions that have been co-opted by Christian people and not referenced in the bible; unless there is a missing chapter called Manners 16:4 "Thou shalt bathe thy living space in lights adorned on the Fir tree and verily thy shall not refuse a kiss 'neath Mystletow, but not accepeth the tongue unlest yee be marryed." If anything it shows the malability and dogged resilience of faiths. And this is not a grand revelation of Christmas because this type of article seems to appear every Christmas.
Should the Christian faith die a death I wouldn't be surprised if another special occasions fall on December 25th. If you can't move the mountain, then you must go to it.
posted by Navek Rednam at 1:23 PM on December 23, 2005
And have the church sought actively destroy these traditions or invest them with Christian meaning? They seem to be traditions that have been co-opted by Christian people and not referenced in the bible; unless there is a missing chapter called Manners 16:4 "Thou shalt bathe thy living space in lights adorned on the Fir tree and verily thy shall not refuse a kiss 'neath Mystletow, but not accepeth the tongue unlest yee be marryed." If anything it shows the malability and dogged resilience of faiths. And this is not a grand revelation of Christmas because this type of article seems to appear every Christmas.
Should the Christian faith die a death I wouldn't be surprised if another special occasions fall on December 25th. If you can't move the mountain, then you must go to it.
posted by Navek Rednam at 1:23 PM on December 23, 2005
Ooops sorry.
posted by Navek Rednam at 1:29 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by Navek Rednam at 1:29 PM on December 23, 2005
As for Fox's war on Christmas, their John Gibson who wrote a book about the "war on Christmas" melted down while debating Rob Boston of Americans United for Seperation of Church and State. He later called him on his cell phone and threatened him. How Christian of him. The so called war is nothing but a big promotion of a book and so-called news network.
posted by caddis at 1:42 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by caddis at 1:42 PM on December 23, 2005
WE ARE CHRISTIANITY.
YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
posted by Citizen Premier at 2:07 PM on December 23, 2005
YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED.
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
posted by Citizen Premier at 2:07 PM on December 23, 2005
Although there are definitely "pagan" elements to Easter celebrations, I'd say that (in the scheme of things) it's probably less non-Christian than Christmas.
Throughout the world's mythologies there have been "Christ" figures, many of whom were associated with spring.
The word "Easter" is in fact from pagan origins. My favorite pagan Jesus is Balder, cause he doen't come back. Those Norse were pretty pessimistic!
posted by tcobretti at 3:01 PM on December 23, 2005
Throughout the world's mythologies there have been "Christ" figures, many of whom were associated with spring.
The word "Easter" is in fact from pagan origins. My favorite pagan Jesus is Balder, cause he doen't come back. Those Norse were pretty pessimistic!
posted by tcobretti at 3:01 PM on December 23, 2005
From Heminator's link:
Prior to 274 there's no record of a major sun cult at the Northern Hemisphere's winter solstice (the year's shortest day, which actually occurs before Dec. 25).
As I understood it, the solstice fell precisely on Dec. 25th prior to Gregorian calendar reforms. No?
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 3:04 PM on December 23, 2005
Prior to 274 there's no record of a major sun cult at the Northern Hemisphere's winter solstice (the year's shortest day, which actually occurs before Dec. 25).
As I understood it, the solstice fell precisely on Dec. 25th prior to Gregorian calendar reforms. No?
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 3:04 PM on December 23, 2005
I don't know about the Gregorian Solstice question, but many holidays are roughly linked to the solstice.
posted by tcobretti at 3:31 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by tcobretti at 3:31 PM on December 23, 2005
Christmas (December 25th) was not even a Federal holiday until 1871. It's a fairly recent "event".
It's ironic how the fundamentalist Christians are fighting for Christmas, when 150 years ago fighting against Christmas.
posted by stbalbach at 3:45 PM on December 23, 2005
It's ironic how the fundamentalist Christians are fighting for Christmas, when 150 years ago fighting against Christmas.
posted by stbalbach at 3:45 PM on December 23, 2005
Bunnies and eggs aside, I can't think of any other Easter traditions that don't have Christian origins.
Seriously? I can't think of any aspects of the holiday that do have a strictly Christian origin, other than the celebration of Christ's resurrection, which happens to fit quite well into the overall them of Easter, which is the arrival of spring and the associated rebirth of the natural world. That's the whole point of Easter eggs - they represent the potential for rebirth.
posted by badstone at 4:15 PM on December 23, 2005
Seriously? I can't think of any aspects of the holiday that do have a strictly Christian origin, other than the celebration of Christ's resurrection, which happens to fit quite well into the overall them of Easter, which is the arrival of spring and the associated rebirth of the natural world. That's the whole point of Easter eggs - they represent the potential for rebirth.
posted by badstone at 4:15 PM on December 23, 2005
This is a link to a three-paragraph blog post presenting a vague summary of the history of Christmas. Have I got that straight? And this is better than a link to, say, the Wikipedia article, which has far more information, why exactly? (And no, I don't think a Wikipedia article would be a good MeFi post; I think this is even worse.)
posted by languagehat at 4:57 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by languagehat at 4:57 PM on December 23, 2005
I'll be glad when xmas is over...and we can argue about new year's day for a while instead......
...go shopping, spend money, get over it!
posted by HuronBob at 5:03 PM on December 23, 2005
...go shopping, spend money, get over it!
posted by HuronBob at 5:03 PM on December 23, 2005
Wow, that John Gibson meltdown is stellar. I it just me or does Fox have more than their fair share of emotionally unstable anchors?
posted by fleetmouse at 5:14 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by fleetmouse at 5:14 PM on December 23, 2005
I'm with languagehat on this. A topic that has such potential and done so crappily. And Herminator's link completely misses the mark.
I remember when John Gibson was a crappy reporter for the local TV station in Sacramento when I grew up there. Crap has come a long way, baby.
posted by Eekacat at 5:30 PM on December 23, 2005
I remember when John Gibson was a crappy reporter for the local TV station in Sacramento when I grew up there. Crap has come a long way, baby.
posted by Eekacat at 5:30 PM on December 23, 2005
Hey lh, Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays !
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:10 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 6:10 PM on December 23, 2005
I had someone accuse me last week of being "a left leaning democrat, or a Jew, or Mohammedan, or just cowardly politically correct" because I'd signed my last column with 'Happy Holidays.'
He went on to say: "I wish you were a Christian, because if you are not and don't repent, you could go to Hell."
Kinda took my breath away. And a peace on earth to you too, bub!
posted by Zinger at 7:17 PM on December 23, 2005
He went on to say: "I wish you were a Christian, because if you are not and don't repent, you could go to Hell."
Kinda took my breath away. And a peace on earth to you too, bub!
posted by Zinger at 7:17 PM on December 23, 2005
It's a war on unrepentant non-Christians!
posted by maxsparber at 7:20 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by maxsparber at 7:20 PM on December 23, 2005
For a religion of forgiveness and love, Christians tend to enjoy fighting against any and everything. War on Christmas? So what?
Do you think Jesus really cares if the Wal-Mart puts up a sign saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas?
Hmmm... missed the part of the Bible that says "I shall smite Wal-Mart for not putting up a sign saying Happy Birthday to Me."
Amen.
posted by AspectRatio at 9:00 PM on December 23, 2005
Do you think Jesus really cares if the Wal-Mart puts up a sign saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas?
Hmmm... missed the part of the Bible that says "I shall smite Wal-Mart for not putting up a sign saying Happy Birthday to Me."
Amen.
posted by AspectRatio at 9:00 PM on December 23, 2005
And oh yeah... Easter.
Well, the bunnies are big that time of year because at the base of the cross there was a whole family of happy little bunnies eating chocolate eggs.
Yes. Seems like some "Christians" won't be happy until the Inquisition rolls back into town.
Love and forgiveness peeps.
posted by AspectRatio at 9:02 PM on December 23, 2005
Well, the bunnies are big that time of year because at the base of the cross there was a whole family of happy little bunnies eating chocolate eggs.
Yes. Seems like some "Christians" won't be happy until the Inquisition rolls back into town.
Love and forgiveness peeps.
posted by AspectRatio at 9:02 PM on December 23, 2005
Agree with Languagehat. Just here on MeFi, within the last two weeks alone, I have been involved in this conversation three or four times already.
posted by Miko at 10:30 PM on December 23, 2005
posted by Miko at 10:30 PM on December 23, 2005
"Christmas is the time when people of all faiths come together to worship Jesus." -- Bart Simpson
posted by neuron at 12:22 AM on December 24, 2005
posted by neuron at 12:22 AM on December 24, 2005
"Christmas is the time when people of all faiths come together to worship Jesus." -- Bart Simpson
you mean "Santa Claus"!
posted by ghastlyfop at 7:51 PM on December 24, 2005
you mean "Santa Claus"!
posted by ghastlyfop at 7:51 PM on December 24, 2005
Well, thanks to the war on Christmas, nothing Christmasy is happening anywhere in the world tonight. I hope you secular humanists are happy with your little victory.
Now back to my eggnog.
posted by maxsparber at 7:55 PM on December 24, 2005
Now back to my eggnog.
posted by maxsparber at 7:55 PM on December 24, 2005
I am kind of irritated at the popular notion that the date for Christmas was chosen deliberately to coincide with other pagan holidays. The evidence seems tilted against this.
Uh, the link doesn't really back up your claim, Heminator, that "the evidence" tilts against a relatively simple political/materialistic explanation for the December celebration of Christ's birth. The pagan/Roman Saturnalia celebration goes back much further than Emperor Aurelian's festival, for one thing, and the benefits to a growing church of co-opting a popular pre-existing celebration are obvious and fit nicely with how power-conscious humans have operated throughout history, and more importantly with the detailed political strategizing we *know* was a factor in many of the heated debates from the early centuries of the Christian church. Sure, my reading of the relevant history is far from Ph.D-level, but I do know that you haven't presented much of an argument against the "popular notion" that so irritates you. Instead, the article quotes one "church history specialist" on something called "the 'integral age' concept, taught by ancient Judaism though not in the Bible," which apparently "held that Israel's great prophets died the same day as their birth or conception."
Since Jesus died around Passover, the early Christians apparently thought, he was conceived [er, why not born?] around Passover, so, adding 9 months, he was born at the end of December. Ta da! Jesus really *was* born in December! Nothing to do with pagan celebrations at all!
Puh-lease. To call that line of reasoning weak is to do it a favor. You certainly have no reason to use it to claim "the evidence" tilts away ffrom the idea that early church leaders saw political benefit to allying their savior's birthday with widely popular pre-Christian celebrations throughout the region. Regardless, we do know that elements of classical saturnalian rites - the Lord of Misrule, social role reversals like Boy Bishops, the Feast of Asses, etc - consistently appear during official Christmas celebrations all through the middle ages.
posted by mediareport at 8:14 PM on December 24, 2005
Uh, the link doesn't really back up your claim, Heminator, that "the evidence" tilts against a relatively simple political/materialistic explanation for the December celebration of Christ's birth. The pagan/Roman Saturnalia celebration goes back much further than Emperor Aurelian's festival, for one thing, and the benefits to a growing church of co-opting a popular pre-existing celebration are obvious and fit nicely with how power-conscious humans have operated throughout history, and more importantly with the detailed political strategizing we *know* was a factor in many of the heated debates from the early centuries of the Christian church. Sure, my reading of the relevant history is far from Ph.D-level, but I do know that you haven't presented much of an argument against the "popular notion" that so irritates you. Instead, the article quotes one "church history specialist" on something called "the 'integral age' concept, taught by ancient Judaism though not in the Bible," which apparently "held that Israel's great prophets died the same day as their birth or conception."
Since Jesus died around Passover, the early Christians apparently thought, he was conceived [er, why not born?] around Passover, so, adding 9 months, he was born at the end of December. Ta da! Jesus really *was* born in December! Nothing to do with pagan celebrations at all!
Puh-lease. To call that line of reasoning weak is to do it a favor. You certainly have no reason to use it to claim "the evidence" tilts away ffrom the idea that early church leaders saw political benefit to allying their savior's birthday with widely popular pre-Christian celebrations throughout the region. Regardless, we do know that elements of classical saturnalian rites - the Lord of Misrule, social role reversals like Boy Bishops, the Feast of Asses, etc - consistently appear during official Christmas celebrations all through the middle ages.
posted by mediareport at 8:14 PM on December 24, 2005
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posted by ericb at 12:19 PM on December 23, 2005