Iranian newspaper decides that there's no business like Shoah business

February 6, 2006 6:50 PM

Newsfilter : Farid Mortazavi, graphics editor to the Iranian newspaper Hamshahri, puts out a call for revisionist Holocaust cartoons. Israeli settlers may plan to riot. Well, continue rioting, anyway.
posted by suckerpunch (61 comments total)

"IRAN'S largest selling newspaper announced today it was holding a contest on cartoons of the Holocaust in response to the publishing in European papers of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed."

I really just want a lighthouse to tend off all by my lonesome.
posted by jperkins at 6:55 PM on February 6, 2006

We are all jews?
posted by furtive at 6:56 PM on February 6, 2006

This is a crap FPP.

First, you actually link to a freakin neo-Nazi site pushing Holocaust denial - which you call "revisionism" (as if it can be condused with real historical revisionism) - read the Wikipedia article you link to on the toxicity of this stuff.

Second, you say that Israeli settlers may plan to riot, linking to an article about the Amona evacuation, which has nothing to do with Holocaust denial or anything else.

And we have already had several posts on this topic.
posted by blahblahblah at 6:58 PM on February 6, 2006

Critisicm noted and understood.

The link to the neo-Nazi site was deliberate; I thought the Wikipedia link next to it would 'show both sides'. I still would like to have a link to a Holocaust revisionist site, but next time I'll surround it with more links debunking it.

The ending thing with the 'plan to riot' was just a joke gone bad. Next time, I'll just shut up.
posted by suckerpunch at 7:13 PM on February 6, 2006

And the site "revisionists.com" is owned by Greg Raven, the former head of the Institute for Historical Review. Nizkor has some information about him.

Just to address some of the more egregious lies on his page, for anyone who might take this seriously. On numbers of deaths changing at Auschwitz. On Raven's misquoting of historian Arno Mayer. On the "Leuchter Report", and so on...

If all of this is too depressing, I recommend the parody: the Mad Revisionist.
posted by blahblahblah at 7:18 PM on February 6, 2006

I love it, what a great idea.

Of course, this is going to help the situation, but the point is being nicely made.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:18 PM on February 6, 2006

Let's see, one cartoon representation of a historical person who's significant to a religion... surely that's morally equal to making jokes about the industrial-scale murder of 6 million persons whose direct descendants are alive today.

That is so utterly repugnant it's morbidly fascinating.
posted by clevershark at 7:19 PM on February 6, 2006

I'm confused. Do they expect Denmark to get upset at what Iranian newspapers publish? Do they expect that to accomplish something in their favor?

What they SHOULD do is publish cartoons of Karl Rove getting fucked in the ass by Laura Bush with a strap-on. But maybe I'm the only one who wants to see that...

yeah.
posted by shmegegge at 7:21 PM on February 6, 2006

Holocaust "revisionism" is the history faculty's equivalent of creationism, only worse: academic fraud, perpetuated by unqualified shysters against all evidence in order to benefit an odious political agenda. It's worse, because the political agenda Holocaust denial derives from is actively malicious, whereas that of creationists is merely wishful thinking. At the core of it Holocaust denial is about accusing the entire Jewish race/religion of being lying, opportunistic scam artists. And also, all the non-Jews who were involved around the event of the Holocaust as perpetrators, fellow victims, politicians, generals, rescuers, researchers, or whatever - the deniers paint these people equally as liars or saps. It is a wrong that is related to slander, as genocide relates to murder.

Although they tend to concentrate their attacks specifically upon the Jews, these fraudsters also harm the aggregate reputations of the many other victims of Nazi willingness to engage in legalized murder: the obvious ones who spring to mind are the physically and mentally disabled, homosexuals, and Gypsies. (Although ignoring the non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust isn't a fault unique to deniers.)

Holocaust denial is a uniquely horrible lie, arguably unprecedented in history. That is why many nations have forbidden spreading that lie by laws excluding it from the domain of "free speech".

The thing about free speech in general is, it's not supposed to include lies. The idea that you're free to make assertions comes with two responsibilities: (1) that you sincerely believe, based upon reasonable evidence, the assertion you make; and (2) that, when presented with reasonable evidence, you cease making the false assertion. That is the kind of "free speech" that national consitutions and bills of rights and freedoms and so forth are intended to protect: the free speech of the responsible and intelligent human being, not the fraudster or the fool. Anyone who argues for Holocaust denial as a matter of free speech, might as well also argue for freedom to make assertions that are commercial fraud or political slander, on the same basis.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:29 PM on February 6, 2006

Shmegegge - you have some sick taste in porn there, boyo.

Everyone knows the implement for rovian assfuckery should be this


posted by lalochezia at 7:32 PM on February 6, 2006

Anyone remember when international relations and diplomacy wasn't as...childish...as it's been in recent years?
posted by Jimbob at 7:33 PM on February 6, 2006

So, when they publish these cartoons, will we be able to tell it apart from their usual cartoons? Maybe they can put a border around it or do an all-color edition or something.
posted by boaz at 7:34 PM on February 6, 2006

We are all six-years-old now.
posted by 235w103 at 7:35 PM on February 6, 2006

The name Suckerpunch is right.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:35 PM on February 6, 2006

Christ. Now not only is geopolitics like high school, it's like some nerdy high school where the kids fight by drawing goofy pictures of each other.

We are all buffoons now.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:37 PM on February 6, 2006

What the hell would a revisionist Holocaust cartoon look like?

Seriously. ‘Cause I’m thinking it’d be as hard to figure out as one of those goofy perfume or feel good drug ads. Guy walking through a field, joined by a penguin, they discover a train which turns into a giant flower and a snake wearing a vest rolling a big donut comes by and the caption “Holocaust. Never. Happened.”

I guess those guys never met a survivor.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:40 PM on February 6, 2006

Let's see, one cartoon representation of a historical person who's significant to a religion...

Whom is being portrayed and/or linked with terrorism.


Holocaust denial is a uniquely horrible lie, arguably unprecedented in history. That is why many nations have forbidden spreading that lie by laws excluding it from the domain of "free speech".

I think this is exactly the point. Various folks, all over the world, are saying that the Islamic cartoons are protected by free speech, that being insulted, made fun of etc, etc is all part of said free speech. Fine, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:41 PM on February 6, 2006

Anyone remember when international relations and diplomacy wasn't as...childish...as it's been in recent years?

This is better than lobbing bombs back and forth.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:42 PM on February 6, 2006

Oh yeah, and it has already been done three days ago.

Get with the program, Iranians! The Arab European League beat you to it. (And another and another)
posted by blahblahblah at 7:43 PM on February 6, 2006

This is fine. Let Iran see that they will not tear apart the fabric of the west through cartoons and free expression. Let them see the lack of riots in the streets.
posted by jikel_morten at 7:45 PM on February 6, 2006

aeschenkarnos - I wouldn't fit the cartoons in under the definition of 'free speech' because it's clearly designed to incite riots. But I'm disturbed by the assertion that free speech cannot include any sort of lie. On first glance, I seperate Holocaust denial from false advertising, political or otherwise; false advertising is seeking to strip you of something (money, votes) while talking about Holocaust denial isn't made to remove anything from you. To my point of view, it's a (vastly) more virulent form of talking about, say, intelligent design. Both are disprovable.

Now that I'm thinking about it, I guess I'm personally drawing the line between morality and laws; it's morally wrong to mention Holocaust denial beliefs without really working hard to show that it's false, like in blahblahblah's links above. Which means that I'm in the wrong. Eurgh. mathowie, delete this post.
posted by suckerpunch at 7:54 PM on February 6, 2006

Does this suprise anyone? I'm sure all fundamentalist Muslims blame the Jews whenever they get a hangnail.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:05 PM on February 6, 2006

I have no problem with any cartoons the Islamists want to print, and I'll enjoy seeing them. I do, however, have a big problem with this.
posted by wayside at 8:05 PM on February 6, 2006

Mod note: removed link to revisionist.org
posted by mathowie (staff) at 8:08 PM on February 6, 2006

Thank you.
posted by suckerpunch at 8:12 PM on February 6, 2006

This will have all the punch and maturity of Rothko's response to quonsar's funny, except quonar's funny was actually funny.
posted by juiceCake at 8:40 PM on February 6, 2006

This will have all the punch and maturity of Rothko's response to quonsar's funny, except quonar's funny was actually funny.

Wow, what a "miserably little ignorant loudmouthed fuckwit you are".
posted by Rothko at 8:58 PM on February 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

Who would have predicted...
posted by soiled cowboy at 9:04 PM on February 6, 2006

I really, truly hope that the same assholes at Metafilter who called me out today, and they know who they are, will be following up on juiceCake's comment above, since I had not made any comments in this thread. Guess we'll find out if those same people are miserable, hypocritical "fuckwits".
posted by Rothko at 9:08 PM on February 6, 2006

holy fuck. STOP WITH THE GRUDGE MATCHES. The very MeTa thread that had been started to ask people to stop bringing external shit into threads was derailed by this shit. Please don't do it anymore. Please. For God's sake, please stop bringing your grudge matches into threads. Please.

This is me begging. Please.
posted by shmegegge at 9:10 PM on February 6, 2006

> mathowie: [removed link to revisionist.org]

I think you just made the Hamshahri's point.
posted by iconjack at 9:16 PM on February 6, 2006

so Alex, do you see quonsar behind you at any time? Because that's a bad sign.
posted by puke & cry at 9:19 PM on February 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

Iconjack, yes, we just burned an embassy to the ground by removing a link filled with lies.

Free speech does not mean that every publisher of information needs to print every piece of junk that comes around. I am going to be offended by Hamshahri's cartoons, and, if I was able to, I would write a letter to the editor to complain, but I won't say he can't print it or I'll kill him. I think posting links to neo-Nazi sites without critical evaluation as an FPP on MeFi is wrong as well, and I, as a member of the community would complain, as MeFiers do about all kinds of things. The Mohammed cartoons were a mean-spirited thing to print, and I would not like to see something done in a similar spirit on MeFi. That isn't suppression of free speech, just the reason why moderated communities are good for people who prefer some editorial standards.

Ha'aretz had an editorial that speaks to this quite well, "One thing all journalists know is how to hurt people..."
posted by blahblahblah at 9:33 PM on February 6, 2006

iconjack: it's unofficial policy around here not to send any traffic to hate sites ie not linking to them.
posted by puke & cry at 9:39 PM on February 6, 2006 [1 favorite]

If all of this is too depressing, I recommend the parody: the Mad Revisionist.

Thank you for that. Best. Disclaimer. Ever:
DISCLAIMER: All editorial content on this website is strictly not the writer’s/author’s opinion. THE MAD REVISIONIST, located on the moon, is owned and operated by accident. The content of this page is the copyrighted property of THE MAD REVISIONIST. Any copying or circulating of this page, in whole or in part, without the expressed permission of THE MAD REVISIONIST will be taken as a compliment.
posted by FeldBum at 9:39 PM on February 6, 2006

The way I see it: our generation of Jewish Americans would not be all that affected or offended by these Holocaust cartoons. Sure, they are crass and offensive, and will surely be more blatantly antagonistic than the orginal Mohammed cartoons were, but:
A. It's not news that many Muslim nations publicly deny or downplay the Holocaust.
B. We've been making Holocaust jokes forever already, as part of the Jewish tradition of humor in the face of tragedy ("My grandfather was in the Holocaust, and to this day he won't step foot into a gas chamber")

Freedom of speech, and humor in particular, carry the burden of offensiveness. If you will be offended by something, don't seek it out or avoid it.
posted by FeldBum at 9:49 PM on February 6, 2006

blah³, I couldn't disagree more. MeFi is chock full of links to sites full of lies. See, for example, any link to a Bush press conference or speech. They are rarely, if ever, removed.

I was curious and wanted to know what was behind all these holocaust revisionists. How about letting the readers decide whose opinions are reasonable and whose are bunk?
posted by iconjack at 9:50 PM on February 6, 2006

One thing that I wondered when I read this (and that I alluded to in the title) is how much this sort of sensationalism is being played for fun and profit by the newspaper.

I can't find anything that would support that. But I didn't find any of blahblahblah's links, either.
posted by suckerpunch at 9:52 PM on February 6, 2006

I'm confused. Do they expect Denmark to get upset at what Iranian newspapers publish?

It looks like their plan is to hit Level Two Outrage when Danish newspapers decline to publish them.

What they SHOULD do is publish cartoons of Karl Rove getting fucked in the ass by Laura Bush with a strap-on.

It would be even better if, in the cartoon, she had no need for a strap-on. And if Rove was some sort of hentai tentacle monster doing things to GeorgeW that would give Lovecraft nightmares.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:53 PM on February 6, 2006

Smedleyman writes "Guy walking through a field, joined by a penguin, they discover a train which turns into a giant flower and a snake wearing a vest rolling a big donut comes by and the caption “Holocaust. Never. Happened.”"

The way Smedleyman's mind works, not for the first time boggles mine. I mean this in an appreciative way: I just haven't that sense of creativity or absurdity.
posted by orthogonality at 9:54 PM on February 6, 2006

iconjack : I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't link to sites like that. But, if you do, come with all available evidence on the cause.

I posted one link to a Wikipedia article. That wasn't sufficient. As a result, this entire thread gets derailed into proving that the Holocaust actually happened... again. Which gets tiresome pretty quick. And mathowie gets to clean up my mess.
posted by suckerpunch at 10:06 PM on February 6, 2006

iconjack : I don't think anyone is saying that you shouldn't link to sites like that. But, if you do, come with all available evidence on the cause.

No. People are most definitely saying that.
posted by kosem at 10:14 PM on February 6, 2006

sums it up well:

"So, when they publish these cartoons, will we be able to tell it apart from their usual cartoons?"
posted by Tryptophan-5ht at 10:14 PM on February 6, 2006

suckerpunch, first of all I reread all the comments and didn't see the derail into "proving that the Holocaust actually happened... again." Second, there are those who are saying you shouldn't link to sites like that: explicitly blahblahblah, puke & cry, and implicitly mathowie. What am I missing?

And now I realize this side conversation should be taken to the talk pages, but I can't resist pointing out the irony of removing from this post (a form of revisionism), a possibly relevant though ugly link.
posted by iconjack at 10:26 PM on February 6, 2006

Iconjack: How about letting the readers decide whose opinions are reasonable and whose are bunk?

Yes, by all means decide whether the "opinion" that the Holocaust happened is correct or not. The link to the denial site is in this thread, just use it. Then read the Eisantzgruppen's own reports about the open air shootings of over a million people. And about the 2 million people killed during Aktion Reinhard. And about the 1.1+ million people killed at Auschwitz. And then you might want to read Nizkor's examination of Holocaust denial's techniques. And then feel free to report back your opinion as to whether the Holocaust happened.

As for me, I'll take a good old anti-Semitic cartoon contest any day. I hope they use Ziggy, he's my favorite!
posted by blahblahblah at 10:27 PM on February 6, 2006

Kind of offtopic in a way, but support our friends (and in a way, free speech) in Denmark and Buy Danish!
posted by Drylnn at 11:27 PM on February 6, 2006

MeTa on the link removal.
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:16 AM on February 7, 2006

Lenin on the Muslim response to the cartoons, discussing racism and demonisation and quoting Edward Said to great effect.
posted by By The Grace of God at 1:23 AM on February 7, 2006

No Middle East crisis would be complete without a Muslim head of government blaming the whole thing on the Jews, of course.
posted by clevershark at 5:17 AM on February 7, 2006

Actually, I think this response from the Iranians should have been the response to the Danish cartoons in the first place.

Morality aside (and it's hard to put that aside in the case of scumbag Holocaust deniers), I've always believed the response to bad/biased/outrageous speech is.... MORE speech. Not riots or fatwas or torchings.

I say let them do their worst with their cartoons, let them condemn and insult each other endlessly, but I'm pretty confident that another "cartoon volley" against their holy taboos will not be received well.

We should all be deeply grateful to the Iranians for their self parody.
posted by reality at 5:25 AM on February 7, 2006

I guess those guys never met a survivor.

they'd immediately kill him/her, so he/she wouldn't technically be a survivor anymore.
posted by matteo at 7:34 AM on February 7, 2006

I, for one, welcome our new mentally challenged overlords.

David Cross: Are we a nation of six year olds? Answer... Yes.
posted by symbioid at 8:43 AM on February 7, 2006

The thing about free speech in general is, it's not supposed to include lies.

And how very fortunate we are that we can trust our government to determine what is a "lie" and thus not protected by the First Amendment.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 9:49 AM on February 7, 2006

actually, free speech is supposed to and does include lies.

it does not include libel or slander, but there are a lot more types of lies than those two.
posted by shmegegge at 10:01 AM on February 7, 2006

puts out a call for revisionist Holocaust cartoons

Maybe they'll run in the Iranian edition of Hustler.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 10:13 AM on February 7, 2006

“they'd immediately kill him/her, so he/she wouldn't technically be a survivor anymore.”
- posted by matteo

Probably true.

I think when I was young I entertained the vague notion that it was possible that the whole holocaust thing could have been fabricated. At a certain age ideas can be intriguing simply because of their novelty or their audacity - sorta like fabricating the moon landing. As I grew I learned about primary evidence and such things and of course discarded the thought. Then I met a man with one of those number tattoos. I looked into his eyes and listened to what he had to say.
...
There’s a good scene with Kevin Spacey in “Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil” where he’s supposed to bring a voodoo priestess a special glass of water. He says that she would have been able to tell the difference if he had just brought tap water.
Not because she could really do magic, he says, “But one look at my face and she would know.”

Same sort of thing. Some things are written so large and so plain on a man’s soul you can’t help but see them. They are made from the truth of their experiance. And something at the core of humanity lay exposed on the surface.

Amazing that people can forget such things. Or can blind themselves to it.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:54 AM on February 7, 2006

Holocaust denial is a uniquely horrible lie, arguably unprecedented in history. That is why many nations have forbidden spreading that lie by laws excluding it from the domain of "free speech".

The argument could be made that creationism is a bigger lie, because of the number of living things that died in order to get evolution where it is today - but it would take a braver person than I to make it.
posted by Sparx at 2:04 PM on February 7, 2006

Wow, what a "miserably little ignorant loudmouthed fuckwit you are".
posted by Rothko at 11:58 PM EST on February 6 [!]

None of the above mate. I thought it was a perfect example of what's being done here. A sense of humour would really help you out.

You've gone out of your way to further illustrate the dynamic that is being discussed in this thread. Humour leads to insane reactions, etc.

Just wow.
posted by juiceCake at 4:28 PM on February 7, 2006

What the hell is going on in this thread?

And rothko, lighten up.
posted by delmoi at 9:43 PM on February 7, 2006

The argument could be made that creationism is a bigger lie, because of the number of living things that died in order to get evolution where it is today - but it would take a braver person than I to make it.

What are you smoking, and where can I get some?
posted by delmoi at 9:47 PM on February 7, 2006

Wouldn't it be funny if a Jewish cartoonist submitted the winning entry?
posted by srboisvert at 10:08 AM on February 8, 2006