Hybrid; worst of both worlds
March 15, 2006 9:29 AM Subscribe
What is it about hybrid cars that brings out such ignorance and bile?? Some Massachusetts columnist named David Baumann has some fresh new disinformation about hybrid cars. He states that hybrids are just too dang complicated for an American driver, that they actually get 25 mpg, and people are either being tricked into buying them, or buying them as some kind of political statement. I wonder which party I got enrolled in when I bought mine? I should check on that, I might want to vote in the primaries.
I don't mind that he doesn't like them, he's not required to. I do mind that such a bizarre mashup of rumor, misinformation, and dark fantasy can be presented to the public under the guise of being news.
This post was deleted for the following reason: op-ed, not really a news story to get up in arms about
...under the guise of being news.
Minor point, but that was in fact the opinion section.
posted by tkolar at 9:32 AM on March 15, 2006
Minor point, but that was in fact the opinion section.
posted by tkolar at 9:32 AM on March 15, 2006
I wonder which party I got enrolled in when I bought mine? I should check on that, I might want to vote in the primaries.
The democratic party, obviously.
posted by delmoi at 9:33 AM on March 15, 2006
The democratic party, obviously.
posted by delmoi at 9:33 AM on March 15, 2006
Please counter his disinformation with some elightening data of your own. Flatly stating that he is wrong (without providing contrary evidence) is just as one-sided and dismissive as his op-ed piece.
posted by daveleck at 9:35 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by daveleck at 9:35 AM on March 15, 2006
Letters to the Editor and Vent links were at the head of the site. Why didn't you bother telling them instead?
posted by furtive at 9:35 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by furtive at 9:35 AM on March 15, 2006
furtive: "Soon life itself will be too complicated for Americans."
Maybe it's the G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.
posted by Plutor at 9:39 AM on March 15, 2006
Maybe it's the G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.
posted by Plutor at 9:39 AM on March 15, 2006
Soon life itself will be too complicated for Americans.
Gays and blacks too, of all nationalities. Why not.
posted by Witty at 9:40 AM on March 15, 2006
Gays and blacks too, of all nationalities. Why not.
posted by Witty at 9:40 AM on March 15, 2006
what daveleck said, only more. At least this guy cited some sources. You cited nothing to disprove his points.
Are some Americans really NOT buying hybrids as political statements?
posted by Sir Mildred Pierce at 9:40 AM on March 15, 2006
Are some Americans really NOT buying hybrids as political statements?
posted by Sir Mildred Pierce at 9:40 AM on March 15, 2006
~awaits the Prius loving brigade.
~preempts Prius loving bridage by, once again, pointing out the fact that typically such cars cannot match the MPG of a turbo-diesel car, which will be most likely more fun to drive.
~preempts those that will point out that such diesel powered cars are only available in places with less strict emissions laws such as Europe and not California by saying "oh shush" - you silly yanks should give up with your SUVs anyways.
posted by 13twelve at 9:43 AM on March 15, 2006
~preempts Prius loving bridage by, once again, pointing out the fact that typically such cars cannot match the MPG of a turbo-diesel car, which will be most likely more fun to drive.
~preempts those that will point out that such diesel powered cars are only available in places with less strict emissions laws such as Europe and not California by saying "oh shush" - you silly yanks should give up with your SUVs anyways.
posted by 13twelve at 9:43 AM on March 15, 2006
What is it about hybrid cars that brings out such ignorance and bile??
Seriously, dude: editorializing is OK on the Op-Ed page — where this piece was written & published — but on the front page of MeFi it's kinda frowned upon.
posted by Johnny Assay at 9:45 AM on March 15, 2006
Seriously, dude: editorializing is OK on the Op-Ed page — where this piece was written & published — but on the front page of MeFi it's kinda frowned upon.
posted by Johnny Assay at 9:45 AM on March 15, 2006
God, I'm getting sick of Andy Rooney.
posted by billysumday at 9:45 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by billysumday at 9:45 AM on March 15, 2006
Jeremy Clarkson, on the Prius:
"The theory behind this is simple: Use the electric motor for city driving, and the proper engine for motorways. The theory is great, but there are problems. First, the petrol consumption is awful - it manages less than a diesel Lupo, which defeats the point totally. What's worse, is that it's slower than a diesel too, which is really bad news, unless driving above 30mph scares you."
from
posted by 13twelve at 9:48 AM on March 15, 2006
"The theory behind this is simple: Use the electric motor for city driving, and the proper engine for motorways. The theory is great, but there are problems. First, the petrol consumption is awful - it manages less than a diesel Lupo, which defeats the point totally. What's worse, is that it's slower than a diesel too, which is really bad news, unless driving above 30mph scares you."
from
posted by 13twelve at 9:48 AM on March 15, 2006
Hybrids are unholy unions between the cars of the Sons of God and the cars of the Sons of Man. They will be cast down into the firey pit, where even now cackling imps are sharping their hayforks and stamping their cloven feets in anticipation.
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:49 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 9:49 AM on March 15, 2006
Anyway -- I heard some excellent analysis over the weekend pointing out that if Americans just drove their present cars a little bit less, they could save vastly more fossil fuel than they can by driving hybrids. Behavior change is more powerful than change in technology.
Bike to work!
posted by Miko at 9:50 AM on March 15, 2006
Bike to work!
posted by Miko at 9:50 AM on March 15, 2006
Maybe it's the G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.
I do not hold to that.
posted by EarBucket at 9:51 AM on March 15, 2006
I do not hold to that.
posted by EarBucket at 9:51 AM on March 15, 2006
13twelve: you realize that today's hybrids are just the prototypes, right? In thirty years we'll all be driving biodiesel plug-in hybrids. One step at a time.
posted by Mars Saxman at 9:54 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by Mars Saxman at 9:54 AM on March 15, 2006
The problem with hybrids and change as suggested by Miko is that it assumes everyone views cars as just a form of transport.
And lots of people do.
But even some of those that see them as *just* forms of transport will take some sort of pride in their car and occasionally want to put their foot down.
You gotta be lying if you try and say "you never driven a bit fast and a bit right foot happy". And if you do say it, I'm gonna go outside and rev my cars engine for a few minutes to get one back for carbon emmisions.
Untill they product a good fun hybrid car - as in one that can keep up with hot hatches and not have some stupid maintainance or difficult upkeeping to run it, theres no chance.
Imagine the new Golf Gti thats being marketed in the states now had everything its got, and was also a battery powered car.
posted by 13twelve at 9:58 AM on March 15, 2006
And lots of people do.
But even some of those that see them as *just* forms of transport will take some sort of pride in their car and occasionally want to put their foot down.
You gotta be lying if you try and say "you never driven a bit fast and a bit right foot happy". And if you do say it, I'm gonna go outside and rev my cars engine for a few minutes to get one back for carbon emmisions.
Untill they product a good fun hybrid car - as in one that can keep up with hot hatches and not have some stupid maintainance or difficult upkeeping to run it, theres no chance.
Imagine the new Golf Gti thats being marketed in the states now had everything its got, and was also a battery powered car.
posted by 13twelve at 9:58 AM on March 15, 2006
if Americans just drove their present cars a little bit less, they could save vastly more fossil fuel than they can by driving hybrids. Behavior change is more powerful than change in technology. - Miko
Yes! We could all benefit from a reminder of this.
In thirty years we'll all be driving biodiesel plug-in hybrids. - Mars Saxman
Which will be a lot more valuable when our electricity doesn't come primarily from fossil fuels.
posted by raedyn at 10:01 AM on March 15, 2006
Yes! We could all benefit from a reminder of this.
In thirty years we'll all be driving biodiesel plug-in hybrids. - Mars Saxman
Which will be a lot more valuable when our electricity doesn't come primarily from fossil fuels.
posted by raedyn at 10:01 AM on March 15, 2006
Maybe it's the G-23 paxilon hydrochlorate.
That might explain why I feel such an overwhelming need to nap.
posted by teleri025 at 10:02 AM on March 15, 2006
That might explain why I feel such an overwhelming need to nap.
posted by teleri025 at 10:02 AM on March 15, 2006
Nevermind that barely anyone reads his frickin newspaper...
berkshireeagle
1A. TOTAL AVERAGE PAID CIRCULATION ...
31,207 (week)
35,445 (Sun)
posted by R. Mutt at 10:04 AM on March 15, 2006
berkshireeagle
1A. TOTAL AVERAGE PAID CIRCULATION ...
31,207 (week)
35,445 (Sun)
posted by R. Mutt at 10:04 AM on March 15, 2006
Untill they product a good fun hybrid car - as in one that can keep up with hot hatches and not have some stupid maintainance or difficult upkeeping to run it, theres no chance.
The hybrid car is a niche market, and performance is a liability in that market. If and until car makers see hybrids or electric or fusion or whatever going mainstream, there is not a chance in hell you'll see anything but niche, eco-friendly-purchaser hybrids on the market.
Chicken-egg thing.
posted by teece at 10:05 AM on March 15, 2006
The hybrid car is a niche market, and performance is a liability in that market. If and until car makers see hybrids or electric or fusion or whatever going mainstream, there is not a chance in hell you'll see anything but niche, eco-friendly-purchaser hybrids on the market.
Chicken-egg thing.
posted by teece at 10:05 AM on March 15, 2006
Which will be a lot more valuable when our electricity doesn't come primarily from fossil fuels.
Yours might. Mine comes primarily from hydroelectric. (Sure, flooding huge expanses of land and creating artificial lakes is sub-optimal, but probably better in the long run than burning fossil fuels.)
In thirty years we'll all be driving biodiesel plug-in hybrids
I got an image of a combination driver's seat and toilet seat when I read this.
posted by solid-one-love at 10:05 AM on March 15, 2006
Yours might. Mine comes primarily from hydroelectric. (Sure, flooding huge expanses of land and creating artificial lakes is sub-optimal, but probably better in the long run than burning fossil fuels.)
In thirty years we'll all be driving biodiesel plug-in hybrids
I got an image of a combination driver's seat and toilet seat when I read this.
posted by solid-one-love at 10:05 AM on March 15, 2006
~preempts Prius loving bridage by, once again, pointing out the fact that typically such cars cannot match the MPG of a turbo-diesel car, which will be most likely more fun to drive.
Of course, yeah, those diesel cars produce a ton of polution. A fuel eficient Jetta TDI produces more smog forming particles then a gas-powered H2.
posted by delmoi at 10:08 AM on March 15, 2006
Of course, yeah, those diesel cars produce a ton of polution. A fuel eficient Jetta TDI produces more smog forming particles then a gas-powered H2.
posted by delmoi at 10:08 AM on March 15, 2006
What is it about hybrid cars that brings out such ignorance and bile??
What is it about criticism of hybrid cars that brings out such plain old bile?
posted by agregoli at 10:10 AM on March 15, 2006
What is it about criticism of hybrid cars that brings out such plain old bile?
posted by agregoli at 10:10 AM on March 15, 2006
Is there any reason to believe that the benefit of a car with two engines will ever outweigh the cost of building a car with two engines? The idea of building a car with an extra engine so that one of the two engines is used marginally less than if it was the only one is just horribly inefficient.
Hybrids clearly help people to overcome the stigma of "green" cars, and that's a good thing. But hybrids aren't really the answer, are they? I mean, do we honestly think we're saving resources somehow by putting an extra engine and fuel system into every car?
posted by JekPorkins at 10:11 AM on March 15, 2006
Hybrids clearly help people to overcome the stigma of "green" cars, and that's a good thing. But hybrids aren't really the answer, are they? I mean, do we honestly think we're saving resources somehow by putting an extra engine and fuel system into every car?
posted by JekPorkins at 10:11 AM on March 15, 2006
From the article:
After several years of being on the market, the complaints of the hybrid's disappointing fuel consumption rates are widespread enough that a blog/question/bulletin board site has emerged. Owners ask questions of an expert who has written a book on hybrids. The typical hybrid owners on this site (hybridcars.com) are getting gas mileage numbers in the 25 to 30 mile per gallon range which, as many complain, was equal to or less than the conventional vehicle they had just traded in.
All cars get less gas milage then advertized, and are required to only advertize EPA figures. Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers.
posted by delmoi at 10:11 AM on March 15, 2006
After several years of being on the market, the complaints of the hybrid's disappointing fuel consumption rates are widespread enough that a blog/question/bulletin board site has emerged. Owners ask questions of an expert who has written a book on hybrids. The typical hybrid owners on this site (hybridcars.com) are getting gas mileage numbers in the 25 to 30 mile per gallon range which, as many complain, was equal to or less than the conventional vehicle they had just traded in.
All cars get less gas milage then advertized, and are required to only advertize EPA figures. Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers.
posted by delmoi at 10:11 AM on March 15, 2006
Is there any reason to believe that the benefit of a car with two engines will ever outweigh the cost of building a car with two engines? The idea of building a car with an extra engine so that one of the two engines is used marginally less than if it was the only one is just horribly inefficient.
It's not an extra engine it's an electric motor, which is far simpler then a gas engine.
posted by delmoi at 10:12 AM on March 15, 2006
It's not an extra engine it's an electric motor, which is far simpler then a gas engine.
posted by delmoi at 10:12 AM on March 15, 2006
Also, all cars already have electric motors in them, to start the engine. Hybrids just have bigger ones. Bigger motors and bigger batteries, but they're not any more complicated (other then the regenerative breaks)
posted by delmoi at 10:14 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by delmoi at 10:14 AM on March 15, 2006
13twelve: I hate to say it but the "silly yanks with SUV's" is no longer applicable. There's a shitload of "silly euros with SUV's" too now. And they're all in very urban-urban areas.
The SUV-mania is like avian flu. It knows no borders.
posted by funambulist at 10:16 AM on March 15, 2006
The SUV-mania is like avian flu. It knows no borders.
posted by funambulist at 10:16 AM on March 15, 2006
Delmoi, it is an engine. And it's not a question of complexity, it's a question of overal efficiency and cost.
Does anyone actually think that the overall cost of a hybrid (not the sticker price) will ever be low enough to make the miniscule fossil fuel savings worth it?
posted by JekPorkins at 10:17 AM on March 15, 2006
Does anyone actually think that the overall cost of a hybrid (not the sticker price) will ever be low enough to make the miniscule fossil fuel savings worth it?
posted by JekPorkins at 10:17 AM on March 15, 2006
1. You can vote in any primary in MA. You just get automatically enrolled in whatever party it was that you voted in.
2. GYOFB
posted by rxrfrx at 10:19 AM on March 15, 2006
2. GYOFB
posted by rxrfrx at 10:19 AM on March 15, 2006
preempts those that will point out that such diesel powered cars are only available in places with less strict emissions laws such as Europe
Ahem. American diesel is considerably more dirty, particularly in sulfur, than Europe diesel. Making diesels clean and reliable is harder here.
I'm not surprised that a diesel gets better mileage. Diesel is a much more energy dense fuel than gasoline, so of course, it gets better mileage. Of course, dramatically increase the demand for diesel will also increase the price of diesel.
But anyone getting 25mpg in a hybrid flat out doesn't understand how to drive one -- or, for that matter, drive *any* car efficently. These are the guys who zoom up to you on the highway, hit the brakes to keep from hitting you, swing over to the next lane, then mash the pedal to zoom by.
For the record, I get over the rated MPG in my Honda Civic Hybrid CVT (48/47) when I can get real gas. I lose about 10-20% when I have to tank up with ethanol gas, which is very common here in the grain belt. Once again, this is not a surprise -- ethanol is much less energy dense fuel than gasoline. In the winter, mileage drops a bit more (as it true for everybody.) Note that a 20% drop in mileage represents 10mpg when you're doing 50mpg.
The best mileage I got was Vandalia, IL to Chicago, IL, via St. Louis, MO, with a couple of days of intercity driving in St. Louis, where I measured (not using the gauges, but comparing fuel in to miles) 61mpg. There was a lovely tailwind coming up from the south, though, which helped. Yes, wind makes a big difference, since the biggest force at highway speeds is air resistance, which is a square function. (Cyclists understand this implicitly.)
As to those who say the battery costs will keep it from paying off, why do you think battery technology won't improve? The HCH has a 144V 6AH NiMH battery that fits in 1.6 cubic feet. 8 years ago, that battery was priceless. If it existed, it was only in lab conditions. 8 years from now, a 144V 6AH battery will be much smaller *and* cheaper. The typical "never payoff" argument assumes gas won't track inflation (which is, at least, historically true) and batteries will (not true at all -- batteries have gotten better *and* cheaper.)
As to power? Mine merges faster than my 2.4L Achivea did. Low RPM power is instantaneous, since the electric motor has max torque at stall. Once that torque curve starts to drop, the gas motor is finally generating torque. Both in merging and passing, I have more than enough power. Indeed, I know what would sell hybrids to the typical US driver who thinks 200hp is weak -- as performance adds, not mileage adds.
Finally, my hybrid is very clean, and represents a bet -- I'm betting that gas isn't going to stay at $2/gal very long. If I'm wrong, I'm the one who loses.
If you don't want to make that bet, don't. Buy your VW Turbo Diesel, or buy an SUV. We'll see what happens in five years.
posted by eriko at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2006
Ahem. American diesel is considerably more dirty, particularly in sulfur, than Europe diesel. Making diesels clean and reliable is harder here.
I'm not surprised that a diesel gets better mileage. Diesel is a much more energy dense fuel than gasoline, so of course, it gets better mileage. Of course, dramatically increase the demand for diesel will also increase the price of diesel.
But anyone getting 25mpg in a hybrid flat out doesn't understand how to drive one -- or, for that matter, drive *any* car efficently. These are the guys who zoom up to you on the highway, hit the brakes to keep from hitting you, swing over to the next lane, then mash the pedal to zoom by.
For the record, I get over the rated MPG in my Honda Civic Hybrid CVT (48/47) when I can get real gas. I lose about 10-20% when I have to tank up with ethanol gas, which is very common here in the grain belt. Once again, this is not a surprise -- ethanol is much less energy dense fuel than gasoline. In the winter, mileage drops a bit more (as it true for everybody.) Note that a 20% drop in mileage represents 10mpg when you're doing 50mpg.
The best mileage I got was Vandalia, IL to Chicago, IL, via St. Louis, MO, with a couple of days of intercity driving in St. Louis, where I measured (not using the gauges, but comparing fuel in to miles) 61mpg. There was a lovely tailwind coming up from the south, though, which helped. Yes, wind makes a big difference, since the biggest force at highway speeds is air resistance, which is a square function. (Cyclists understand this implicitly.)
As to those who say the battery costs will keep it from paying off, why do you think battery technology won't improve? The HCH has a 144V 6AH NiMH battery that fits in 1.6 cubic feet. 8 years ago, that battery was priceless. If it existed, it was only in lab conditions. 8 years from now, a 144V 6AH battery will be much smaller *and* cheaper. The typical "never payoff" argument assumes gas won't track inflation (which is, at least, historically true) and batteries will (not true at all -- batteries have gotten better *and* cheaper.)
As to power? Mine merges faster than my 2.4L Achivea did. Low RPM power is instantaneous, since the electric motor has max torque at stall. Once that torque curve starts to drop, the gas motor is finally generating torque. Both in merging and passing, I have more than enough power. Indeed, I know what would sell hybrids to the typical US driver who thinks 200hp is weak -- as performance adds, not mileage adds.
Finally, my hybrid is very clean, and represents a bet -- I'm betting that gas isn't going to stay at $2/gal very long. If I'm wrong, I'm the one who loses.
If you don't want to make that bet, don't. Buy your VW Turbo Diesel, or buy an SUV. We'll see what happens in five years.
posted by eriko at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2006
All cars get less gas milage then advertized, and are required to only advertize EPA figures. Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers.
Are you assuming that none of those complaining hybrid owners ever did the math to find out what their previous rides were getting for mileage? I bet most of them did.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2006
Are you assuming that none of those complaining hybrid owners ever did the math to find out what their previous rides were getting for mileage? I bet most of them did.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2006
Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers.
Actually, the last time I was in a Ford Expedition (which was quite a while ago), there was an LCD display of the gas mileage. I don't know how it was calculated. I told my friends that was less than my parents' old RV used to get. They were annoyed.
posted by expialidocious at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2006
Actually, the last time I was in a Ford Expedition (which was quite a while ago), there was an LCD display of the gas mileage. I don't know how it was calculated. I told my friends that was less than my parents' old RV used to get. They were annoyed.
posted by expialidocious at 10:20 AM on March 15, 2006
Nevermind that barely anyone reads his frickin newspaper...
berkshireeagle
Hey, I subscribe to the Eagle, daily and Sunday!
*proud of doing his part*
And seriously, Ken McE, that's a terrible, terrible way to make a post. "Here's a link about something I hate and it's really bad and the guy is a poopyhead!!!" If it's that bad, we'll figure it out for ourselves, thanks.
posted by languagehat at 10:22 AM on March 15, 2006
berkshireeagle
Hey, I subscribe to the Eagle, daily and Sunday!
*proud of doing his part*
And seriously, Ken McE, that's a terrible, terrible way to make a post. "Here's a link about something I hate and it's really bad and the guy is a poopyhead!!!" If it's that bad, we'll figure it out for ourselves, thanks.
posted by languagehat at 10:22 AM on March 15, 2006
Hybrids kill firemen!
posted by Pollomacho at 10:26 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 10:26 AM on March 15, 2006
I almost never read of anyone mentioning the noise reduction benefits of hybrids. Imagine if you replaced all the cars out there now with hybrids. Walking on the street would be a very different experience.
posted by sineater at 10:30 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by sineater at 10:30 AM on March 15, 2006
Get your own blog Ken McE!
posted by about_time at 10:31 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by about_time at 10:31 AM on March 15, 2006
Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers. - delmoi
My '92 Dodge Spirit displays the (lame) gas mileage it's getting, both as some sort of "on the fly" calculation, and as an average singe last you reset it (I reset it at each fill up). I've modified the way I drive because of that display. I'm a more fuel efficient (and predicatable, and patient) driver since I started paying attention.
posted by raedyn at 10:32 AM on March 15, 2006
My '92 Dodge Spirit displays the (lame) gas mileage it's getting, both as some sort of "on the fly" calculation, and as an average singe last you reset it (I reset it at each fill up). I've modified the way I drive because of that display. I'm a more fuel efficient (and predicatable, and patient) driver since I started paying attention.
posted by raedyn at 10:32 AM on March 15, 2006
Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers.
I suppose that's nice, but I have no trouble keeping my own records. Every time I fill up the tank, I record the date, mileage, gallons, and price in my li'l mileage notebook. Old family tradition. (And boy, is it ever depressing to flip back to the pages from two years ago, when I first got the car and the hurricanes hadn't hit yet, and gas was still under two bucks. Sigh.)
posted by Gator at 10:37 AM on March 15, 2006
I suppose that's nice, but I have no trouble keeping my own records. Every time I fill up the tank, I record the date, mileage, gallons, and price in my li'l mileage notebook. Old family tradition. (And boy, is it ever depressing to flip back to the pages from two years ago, when I first got the car and the hurricanes hadn't hit yet, and gas was still under two bucks. Sigh.)
posted by Gator at 10:37 AM on March 15, 2006
Delmoi, it is an engine. And it's not a question of complexity, it's a question of overal efficiency and cost.
Why do you say that? The term "engine" is very broad (it can even be applied to software), but I've never heard it applied to electrical motors before your post.
Generally, it means a motor that converts thermal energy into motion, compared to an electrical motor, which converts electricity to motion.
posted by delmoi at 10:38 AM on March 15, 2006
Why do you say that? The term "engine" is very broad (it can even be applied to software), but I've never heard it applied to electrical motors before your post.
Generally, it means a motor that converts thermal energy into motion, compared to an electrical motor, which converts electricity to motion.
posted by delmoi at 10:38 AM on March 15, 2006
What a crappy post.
This should be unquestionably deleted.
Lay off the editorializing. This site doesn't exist as a soapbox for you to tell us what you think about the world.
posted by dios at 10:40 AM on March 15, 2006
This should be unquestionably deleted.
Lay off the editorializing. This site doesn't exist as a soapbox for you to tell us what you think about the world.
posted by dios at 10:40 AM on March 15, 2006
"GYOFB" No, no. GYOBFW. Sheesh.
I was on the fence on this one... I usually choose the latter but I just don't hold that much ill will towards this guy.
posted by rxrfrx at 10:40 AM on March 15, 2006
I was on the fence on this one... I usually choose the latter but I just don't hold that much ill will towards this guy.
posted by rxrfrx at 10:40 AM on March 15, 2006
I mean, do we honestly think we're saving resources somehow by putting an extra engine and fuel system into every car?
Uh. What.
There is no secondary "engine" and "fuel system" in hybrids.
Just a big ol' dc motor and an array of batteries.
(ie, things that store energy, not fuel that is consumed to produce energy.
posted by stenseng at 10:43 AM on March 15, 2006
Uh. What.
There is no secondary "engine" and "fuel system" in hybrids.
Just a big ol' dc motor and an array of batteries.
(ie, things that store energy, not fuel that is consumed to produce energy.
posted by stenseng at 10:43 AM on March 15, 2006
I mean, do we honestly think we're saving resources somehow by putting an extra engine and fuel system into every car?
Uh. What.
There is no secondary "engine" and "fuel system" in hybrids.
Just a big ol' dc motor and an array of batteries.
(ie, things that store energy, not fuel that is consumed to produce energy.)
posted by stenseng at 10:43 AM on March 15, 2006
Uh. What.
There is no secondary "engine" and "fuel system" in hybrids.
Just a big ol' dc motor and an array of batteries.
(ie, things that store energy, not fuel that is consumed to produce energy.)
posted by stenseng at 10:43 AM on March 15, 2006
So, Delmoi, my use of the term "engine" threw you off to the point that you didn't understand what I was saying? Or are you just being pedantic? Rather than argue about the meaning of the term "engine," let's just pretend I said "two motors" instead of "two engines" and move on (or just insert whatever term you'd use to mean "the thing that makes the car go")
posted by JekPorkins at 10:44 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by JekPorkins at 10:44 AM on March 15, 2006
I haven't read any of this stupid discussion, but the "second fuel system" in hybrids is energy captured from the wheels as you apply the brakes, stored in batteries, and fed into an electric motor to make the car go fast again.
posted by rxrfrx at 10:45 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by rxrfrx at 10:45 AM on March 15, 2006
I'm planning to buy a Toyota Prius this year, even though I don't drive that much and the fuel savings isn't an issue. I like the way it looks, plus the tax break you get for buying a hybrid car this year is a big incentive. One of my neighbors has one and she loves it.
posted by mike3k at 10:47 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by mike3k at 10:47 AM on March 15, 2006
Does anyone actually think that the overall cost of a hybrid (not the sticker price) will ever be low enough to make the miniscule fossil fuel savings worth it?
With the $2000 tax credit last year, the Civic Hybrid we bought cost the same as a regular Civic. And I can second everything eriko said about the Civic. It's peppy, can keep up and merge well, and gets good mileage. Although the best we got was 50 so far (We are in Michigan). Maintenance costs have not been any different then a regular car so far.
Note the Civic hybrid is a different system than most other hybrids in that it relies first on the gasoline engine and supplements it with power from the battery for acceleration, so the engine is always running unless you are at a complete stop in economy mode. Most other hybrids only turn the engine on above a certain speed. The overall effect is that the Civic hybrid drives like a regular old car, and is almost indistinguishable from a normal Civic.
posted by Roger Dodger at 10:47 AM on March 15, 2006
With the $2000 tax credit last year, the Civic Hybrid we bought cost the same as a regular Civic. And I can second everything eriko said about the Civic. It's peppy, can keep up and merge well, and gets good mileage. Although the best we got was 50 so far (We are in Michigan). Maintenance costs have not been any different then a regular car so far.
Note the Civic hybrid is a different system than most other hybrids in that it relies first on the gasoline engine and supplements it with power from the battery for acceleration, so the engine is always running unless you are at a complete stop in economy mode. Most other hybrids only turn the engine on above a certain speed. The overall effect is that the Civic hybrid drives like a regular old car, and is almost indistinguishable from a normal Civic.
posted by Roger Dodger at 10:47 AM on March 15, 2006
but the "second fuel system" in hybrids is energy captured from the wheels as you apply the brakes, stored in batteries, and fed into an electric motor to make the car go fast again.
Right, which is a far cleaner and more abundant source of energy than say, the dead fucking dinosaur juice we've been burning for far too long.
Hence the benefit of hybrid cars. Same amount of "go," less gas usage, and less greenhouse emissions than turbodeisel technology.
duh.
And for the record, the Prius is quite peppy. I didn't notice any difficulty passing on the freeway, or cruising at 75mph over here in North Idaho when I rode in one.
posted by stenseng at 10:48 AM on March 15, 2006
Right, which is a far cleaner and more abundant source of energy than say, the dead fucking dinosaur juice we've been burning for far too long.
Hence the benefit of hybrid cars. Same amount of "go," less gas usage, and less greenhouse emissions than turbodeisel technology.
duh.
And for the record, the Prius is quite peppy. I didn't notice any difficulty passing on the freeway, or cruising at 75mph over here in North Idaho when I rode in one.
posted by stenseng at 10:48 AM on March 15, 2006
So, Delmoi, my use of the term "engine" threw you off to the point that you didn't understand what I was saying? Or are you just being pedantic?
Well the point is that someone so ignorant about mechanical engineering generally shouldn't be making that type of pronouncement, and if they do, they should be ignored.
It's not "just" a semantic mistake, an internal combustion piston engine is vastly more complicated, expensive and failure-prone then an electrical motor.
If it was just a metaphor, it was a misleading one.
posted by delmoi at 10:48 AM on March 15, 2006
Well the point is that someone so ignorant about mechanical engineering generally shouldn't be making that type of pronouncement, and if they do, they should be ignored.
It's not "just" a semantic mistake, an internal combustion piston engine is vastly more complicated, expensive and failure-prone then an electrical motor.
If it was just a metaphor, it was a misleading one.
posted by delmoi at 10:48 AM on March 15, 2006
Mike3k, double check the tax break. We got $2000 for last year, but I believe the federal tax break dropped to $500 this year unless there is some new legislation I don't know about.
posted by Roger Dodger at 10:49 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by Roger Dodger at 10:49 AM on March 15, 2006
I'm planning to buy a Toyota Prius this year, even though I don't drive that much and the fuel savings isn't an issue. I like the way it looks, plus the tax break you get for buying a hybrid car this year is a big incentive. One of my neighbors has one and she loves it.
If I was in the market for a car, today, I would probably get one. I really like the way it looks, although the wheels could be bigger.
posted by delmoi at 10:50 AM on March 15, 2006
If I was in the market for a car, today, I would probably get one. I really like the way it looks, although the wheels could be bigger.
posted by delmoi at 10:50 AM on March 15, 2006
Would evidence seen by my own eyes be sufficient, or are the anti-hybrid forces holding the counterexample disproves an assertion rule in abeyance? Or, apparently, two counterexamples here thus far. In the summer my wife enjoys over 50 MPG with her Prius between fillups, in a mix of city and tollway driving. The best that I personally verified at the gas station pump was 54 MPG over 450 miles distance, and I saw a stretch of 60+ MPG over 100 miles. Diesel typically falls short of the solid 50+ MPG range under normal metropolitan driving conditions and we can spare the emissions comparison since, well, there is no comparison.
Prius mileage can drop significantly when it's cold, but the worst I've ever seen was 37 MPG at fill-up time when the outside temperature had been highs in the mid-teens for an entire driving period of too-short trips. Nor does my wife drive in ideal conditions or in an ideal climate for the hybrid; the Prius likes somewhat warmer climates for best gas mileage. And she isn't particularly anal about driving, as a few speeding tickets over the years can attest.
Since my wife now has 43K+ miles on her Prius, hopefully the idea of insufficient data or a break-in honeymoon period can be dismissed. I could offer additional hearsay evidence from people she knows or follows on forums who also own hybrids (not necessarily a Prius) that do as well or better on mileage, but presumably that approach lacks the rigor the naysayers demand without offering it back.
Incidentally, Consumer Reports now says that Prius and Civic hybrid owners can save money on a purely economic comparison, for those who believe that is the only true metric of car ownership. Consumer Reports picking the Prius as a top ten car for three years running might also be attractive to a few people.
(Silly sideshow political revelation: Neither my wife nor I belong to a political party or vote straight-ticket).
posted by mdevore at 10:50 AM on March 15, 2006
Prius mileage can drop significantly when it's cold, but the worst I've ever seen was 37 MPG at fill-up time when the outside temperature had been highs in the mid-teens for an entire driving period of too-short trips. Nor does my wife drive in ideal conditions or in an ideal climate for the hybrid; the Prius likes somewhat warmer climates for best gas mileage. And she isn't particularly anal about driving, as a few speeding tickets over the years can attest.
Since my wife now has 43K+ miles on her Prius, hopefully the idea of insufficient data or a break-in honeymoon period can be dismissed. I could offer additional hearsay evidence from people she knows or follows on forums who also own hybrids (not necessarily a Prius) that do as well or better on mileage, but presumably that approach lacks the rigor the naysayers demand without offering it back.
Incidentally, Consumer Reports now says that Prius and Civic hybrid owners can save money on a purely economic comparison, for those who believe that is the only true metric of car ownership. Consumer Reports picking the Prius as a top ten car for three years running might also be attractive to a few people.
(Silly sideshow political revelation: Neither my wife nor I belong to a political party or vote straight-ticket).
posted by mdevore at 10:50 AM on March 15, 2006
"Well the point is that someone so ignorant about mechanical engineering generally shouldn't be making that type of pronouncement, and if they do, they should be ignored."
Especially considering that the motive energy expended by the electrical system of a hybrid is motive energy that would otherwise have been wasted by inefficiencies in the mechanical system. It's as close to "free energy" as you're gonna get anytime soon.
posted by stenseng at 10:51 AM on March 15, 2006
Especially considering that the motive energy expended by the electrical system of a hybrid is motive energy that would otherwise have been wasted by inefficiencies in the mechanical system. It's as close to "free energy" as you're gonna get anytime soon.
posted by stenseng at 10:51 AM on March 15, 2006
After the success of peanut butter and jelly in the same jar, what do you expect from people?
posted by NationalKato at 10:52 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by NationalKato at 10:52 AM on March 15, 2006
Speaking of batteries, there's an interesting question that I haven't really seen an answer to. What happens when those batteries lose their ability to hold a charge? In, say, 7 or 8 years?
How do we dispose of them, and what happens to the resale value of a hybrid, (assuming that you own rather than lease it?)
posted by generichuman at 10:55 AM on March 15, 2006
How do we dispose of them, and what happens to the resale value of a hybrid, (assuming that you own rather than lease it?)
posted by generichuman at 10:55 AM on March 15, 2006
if Americans just drove their present cars a little bit less, they could save vastly more fossil fuel
No kidding. Also if they flew on airplanes less. And ate less. And bought less. America is a consumptive beast, if the rest of the world lived like we did (and they're trying hard) it would take 8 planets to support. This party can't last.. hey look, GNP is up %2.5 .. another good year.
posted by stbalbach at 10:57 AM on March 15, 2006
No kidding. Also if they flew on airplanes less. And ate less. And bought less. America is a consumptive beast, if the rest of the world lived like we did (and they're trying hard) it would take 8 planets to support. This party can't last.. hey look, GNP is up %2.5 .. another good year.
posted by stbalbach at 10:57 AM on March 15, 2006
Especially considering that the motive energy expended by the electrical system of a hybrid is motive energy that would otherwise have been wasted by inefficiencies in the mechanical system. It's as close to "free energy" as you're gonna get anytime soon.
Well, most hybrid systems keep the batteries charged at all times, not just when you're breaking. The battery also works really well for any low speeds. In fact, the motor will be more powerful then the engine at low RPM.
posted by delmoi at 10:58 AM on March 15, 2006
Well, most hybrid systems keep the batteries charged at all times, not just when you're breaking. The battery also works really well for any low speeds. In fact, the motor will be more powerful then the engine at low RPM.
posted by delmoi at 10:58 AM on March 15, 2006
" The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.
Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.
There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear."
posted by stenseng at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2006
Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.
There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear."
posted by stenseng at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2006
When GM came out with its electric car, people said it "wasn't the answer" because you had to plug it in. Now hybrids are here, and people are saying that they "aren't the answer" because it has two motors. Turbodiesel apparently "isn't the answer" either because of soot.
I think people should just stop pretending that they're looking for the f*cking answer in the first place and admit that they like to drive gas-powered cars for no other reason than they like it.
posted by clevershark at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2006
I think people should just stop pretending that they're looking for the f*cking answer in the first place and admit that they like to drive gas-powered cars for no other reason than they like it.
posted by clevershark at 10:59 AM on March 15, 2006
Mileage plays a part, but if your emissions are dirty it doesn't make it a "green car". Pirus has outstanding emissions.
posted by stbalbach at 11:00 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by stbalbach at 11:00 AM on March 15, 2006
What a crappy post. This should be unquestionably deleted.
posted by dios at 10:40 AM PST on March 15
If you don't like it, skip it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:03 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by dios at 10:40 AM PST on March 15
If you don't like it, skip it.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:03 AM on March 15, 2006
Hey, thanks for calling me "ignorant about mechanical engineering." Aside from the fact that nothing I wrote was ignorant, do I now get to levy unfounded insults at you in return?
posted by JekPorkins at 11:06 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by JekPorkins at 11:06 AM on March 15, 2006
A fuel eficient Jetta TDI produces more smog forming particles then a gas-powered H2.
Delmoi - did you get this info from anywhere in particular, or is it just your observation. I'm only interested and would like to read up more on all the diesel/emissions stuff.
posted by Sloben at 11:06 AM on March 15, 2006
Delmoi - did you get this info from anywhere in particular, or is it just your observation. I'm only interested and would like to read up more on all the diesel/emissions stuff.
posted by Sloben at 11:06 AM on March 15, 2006
Only hybrids display the gas milage to their drivers.
Let me just jump on the WTF Train here, my 14 year old Audi displays MPG both on the fly and as a cumulative average over whatever length of time I choose.
posted by rollbiz at 11:08 AM on March 15, 2006
Let me just jump on the WTF Train here, my 14 year old Audi displays MPG both on the fly and as a cumulative average over whatever length of time I choose.
posted by rollbiz at 11:08 AM on March 15, 2006
AC Propulsion tzero:
lithium-ion pure electric
300 miles/charge
0-60 in 3.7
1600 lbs
2 seats
$220,000
The laptop computer industry is working hard to bring the price down. Should happen any day now...
posted by ryanrs at 11:08 AM on March 15, 2006
The laptop computer industry is working hard to bring the price down. Should happen any day now...
posted by ryanrs at 11:08 AM on March 15, 2006
Metafilter: Jump on the WTF Train here.
posted by JekPorkins at 11:10 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by JekPorkins at 11:10 AM on March 15, 2006
Jek, Delmoi As far as I've always been taught a motor is something that is self-contained and doesn't need stuff added to produce work and an engine requires fuel/oxidizer. This is why liquid rockets are engines and why solid rockets are motors.
Just adding my little bit of pedantry. =)
posted by Phantomx at 11:11 AM on March 15, 2006
Just adding my little bit of pedantry. =)
posted by Phantomx at 11:11 AM on March 15, 2006
Please counter his disinformation with some elightening data of your own
As a Prius owner (and BMW):
- We average between 45 and 50 mpg - never made it above 50 but I've come very close.
- We fill up every week and a half or so with about $20 and it goes for nearly 400 miles (or more).
My view: It kicks ass. Even my wife (22 mile each way commute) prefers it to the BMW and she drives it far more agressively than I.
Of course it's not a performance car but it can shift when it needs to and it's not like there's autobahns I can rev out the Prius (or bimmer) on anyway. I recently took part in an independent survey / road test for a bit of extra cash. I drove and had to rate a Prius, Accord standard, Accord hybrid and a Jetta (petrol). I was pleased as punch when I objectively declared the Prius came first on performance (just), noise, general handling and ergonomics.
So I don't understand where Baumann gets his figures from. I would guess that the low mileage refers to the lower end hybrids (not Prius or Accord) and that he's disingenuously comparing their REAL mpg with non-hybrid's EPA mpg. And this nonsense about lights coming on and it being confusing - balderdash. You get in and put your foot down. That's it.
I would estimate that, compared with the BMW (3.25i - better milage than an SUV) we save $60 at current prices (probably more) a month in gas. Plus there was a grand or so tax incentivewhen we bought it. Huge savings? No. But I likes it anyway.
posted by NailsTheCat at 11:12 AM on March 15, 2006
As a Prius owner (and BMW):
- We average between 45 and 50 mpg - never made it above 50 but I've come very close.
- We fill up every week and a half or so with about $20 and it goes for nearly 400 miles (or more).
My view: It kicks ass. Even my wife (22 mile each way commute) prefers it to the BMW and she drives it far more agressively than I.
Of course it's not a performance car but it can shift when it needs to and it's not like there's autobahns I can rev out the Prius (or bimmer) on anyway. I recently took part in an independent survey / road test for a bit of extra cash. I drove and had to rate a Prius, Accord standard, Accord hybrid and a Jetta (petrol). I was pleased as punch when I objectively declared the Prius came first on performance (just), noise, general handling and ergonomics.
So I don't understand where Baumann gets his figures from. I would guess that the low mileage refers to the lower end hybrids (not Prius or Accord) and that he's disingenuously comparing their REAL mpg with non-hybrid's EPA mpg. And this nonsense about lights coming on and it being confusing - balderdash. You get in and put your foot down. That's it.
I would estimate that, compared with the BMW (3.25i - better milage than an SUV) we save $60 at current prices (probably more) a month in gas. Plus there was a grand or so tax incentivewhen we bought it. Huge savings? No. But I likes it anyway.
posted by NailsTheCat at 11:12 AM on March 15, 2006
Nie try, birdherder.
Traffic officials and police do not know of any cases in which pedestrians were harmed by the popular hybrids. Collision reports don't have a provision for considering whether the quiet nature of the car is a factor.
Read your own fucking articles, thanks.
posted by piratebowling at 11:18 AM on March 15, 2006
Traffic officials and police do not know of any cases in which pedestrians were harmed by the popular hybrids. Collision reports don't have a provision for considering whether the quiet nature of the car is a factor.
Read your own fucking articles, thanks.
posted by piratebowling at 11:18 AM on March 15, 2006
Obviously if your commute is all highway you're not going to get great mileage out of a hybrid, because above 35mph (I think) it actually uses its 3-cylinder engine instead of the electric motor. But then driving a Prius mostly on the highway makes about as much sense as driving a Smart mostly on the highway -- it's completely missing the point.
posted by clevershark at 11:20 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by clevershark at 11:20 AM on March 15, 2006
Toyota isn't stupid, Gator. They know that.
posted by The Bellman at 11:28 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by The Bellman at 11:28 AM on March 15, 2006
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posted by furtive at 9:31 AM on March 15, 2006