Diamonds in the sky
May 8, 2006 2:29 PM Subscribe
Diamonds in the sky [newsfilter] Your tax dollars at work: $6.1 billion on a new fleet of Sea King helicopters for the President. "The fold-down stair spares the president from ducking during photogenic entrances and exits."
This post was deleted for the following reason: helicopters cost money. big fucking whoop.
You mean he doesn't have to do the Reagan Shuffle anymore?
posted by nyxxxx at 2:32 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by nyxxxx at 2:32 PM on May 8, 2006
louisxvi
icarus
sunking
I looked for these terms and I could not locate them in the article.
posted by dios at 2:34 PM on May 8, 2006
icarus
sunking
I looked for these terms and I could not locate them in the article.
posted by dios at 2:34 PM on May 8, 2006
The Canadian Navy has been trying to replace its Sea Kings for years. They are by all accounts seriously dated pieces of technology.
posted by sindark at 2:36 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by sindark at 2:36 PM on May 8, 2006
Of course it's 6 billion bucks. It not only takes off, it lands.
posted by rollbiz at 2:37 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by rollbiz at 2:37 PM on May 8, 2006
Icarus: "The son of Daedalus who, in escaping from Crete on artificial wings made for him by his father, flew so close to the sun that the wax with which his wings were fastened melted, and he fell into the Aegean Sea."
posted by bukharin at 2:37 PM on May 8, 2006
I looked for these terms and I could not locate them in the article.
That's because it should be louisxiv, not louixvi.
other relevant tags: dearleader, thesunneversets, fuehrerprinzip, etc.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:38 PM on May 8, 2006
That's because it should be louisxiv, not louixvi.
other relevant tags: dearleader, thesunneversets, fuehrerprinzip, etc.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:38 PM on May 8, 2006
Wait, they're going to make the new helicopters out of wax?! Surely that's a mistake.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:38 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:38 PM on May 8, 2006
That's because it should be louisxiv, not louixvi.
But it was XVI who lost his head.
posted by bukharin at 2:40 PM on May 8, 2006
Wait, they're going to make the new helicopters out of wax?!
no, pork ... it's made completely out of pork
posted by pyramid termite at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2006
no, pork ... it's made completely out of pork
posted by pyramid termite at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2006
But it was XVI who lost his head.
posted by bukharin at 4:40 PM CST on May 8
Will these new helicopters not decapitate the president? I'm still not getting it.
posted by dios at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by bukharin at 4:40 PM CST on May 8
Will these new helicopters not decapitate the president? I'm still not getting it.
posted by dios at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2006
I read the working with wax safety tips, and it didn't mention decapitation at all.
posted by ND¢ at 2:45 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by ND¢ at 2:45 PM on May 8, 2006
Those development prices aren't out of line with other government helicopter development costs, at least to justify the "icarus" and "louisxvi" tags, especially given that the program started in 1999. Development usually costs billions for each new helicopter.
So, with a little digging as far as the presidential helicopter: "The program plans to procure 23 VH-71 operational aircraft and three test aircraft at an expected per unit cost of approximately $82 million per aircraft (initial increments) and approximately $110 million per aircraft in the final configuration." So a couple billion more in development on top, which is not that surprising. Critics of the program aren't attacking its costs, by the way, as much as its development time. Which they think is too short.
To compare, the new CSAR-X rescue helicopter is also under development, costs are estimated at $70-80 million each, with an extra $1.5 billion development.
So, maybe, not so snarkarific?
posted by blahblahblah at 2:46 PM on May 8, 2006
So, with a little digging as far as the presidential helicopter: "The program plans to procure 23 VH-71 operational aircraft and three test aircraft at an expected per unit cost of approximately $82 million per aircraft (initial increments) and approximately $110 million per aircraft in the final configuration." So a couple billion more in development on top, which is not that surprising. Critics of the program aren't attacking its costs, by the way, as much as its development time. Which they think is too short.
To compare, the new CSAR-X rescue helicopter is also under development, costs are estimated at $70-80 million each, with an extra $1.5 billion development.
So, maybe, not so snarkarific?
posted by blahblahblah at 2:46 PM on May 8, 2006
God, what a piece of shit this guy is.
posted by Nicholas West at 2:46 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by Nicholas West at 2:46 PM on May 8, 2006
Will these new helicopters not decapitate the president? I'm still not getting it.
posted by dios at 2:42 PM PST on May 8
Had we but world enough, and time.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:47 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by dios at 2:42 PM PST on May 8
Had we but world enough, and time.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 2:47 PM on May 8, 2006
God, what a piece of shit this guy is.
For buying helicopters? Really?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:47 PM on May 8, 2006
For buying helicopters? Really?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:47 PM on May 8, 2006
Exactly, which really speaks to the shitty nature of these posts. I hate hate hate him, but I also don't read DailyKos for a reason.
posted by trey at 2:49 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by trey at 2:49 PM on May 8, 2006
Any link between this and Bush himself is, at best, tenuous. The man leaves office in 2008, right? The first helicopter enters service in 2009 at the very earliest. These things will last for years - the Sea King has been used as Marine One since 1961!
posted by matthewr at 2:50 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by matthewr at 2:50 PM on May 8, 2006
Why does he need 23 helicopters? Canada, the second largest country in the world and bordered by three oceans only has 19 for its entire search & rescue operations!
posted by furtive at 2:54 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by furtive at 2:54 PM on May 8, 2006
Of course it's 6 billion bucks. It not only takes off, it lands.
More's the shame.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:55 PM on May 8, 2006
More's the shame.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:55 PM on May 8, 2006
We don't need to spend all that money, we just need shorter presidents.
posted by fenriq at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by fenriq at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2006
So, to summarize, the program for development of these helicopters began in 1999, under the Clinton administration, and will not be completed until, at the earliest, 2009, after Bush leaves office. Christ, what an asshole this Bush guy is. </sarcasm>
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by monju_bosatsu at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2006
I have serious concern that the constant hating of BushCo for stupid, nonsensical, invalid reasons is going backfire and devalue the really good important reasons for hating them.
posted by freebird at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by freebird at 2:56 PM on May 8, 2006
set to gradually go into service between 2009 and 2014...
That fucking Bush! There he goes trying to curry favor from his successors!
posted by pardonyou? at 2:57 PM on May 8, 2006
That fucking Bush! There he goes trying to curry favor from his successors!
posted by pardonyou? at 2:57 PM on May 8, 2006
I have serious concern that the constant hating of BushCo for stupid, nonsensical, invalid reasons is going backfire and devalue the really good important reasons for hating them.
posted by freebird at 5:56 PM EST on May 8 [!]
I couldn't agree with this more. This crowd reminds me more and more of Clinton-era Dittoheads.
posted by trey at 2:58 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by freebird at 5:56 PM EST on May 8 [!]
I couldn't agree with this more. This crowd reminds me more and more of Clinton-era Dittoheads.
posted by trey at 2:58 PM on May 8, 2006
I said nothing about Bush.
That's about as lame a defense as I've ever heard. I'm sure your tags were just intended as generalized commentary on the presidency itself.
And anyway, your failure to specifally use the word "Bush" was an oversight quickly remedied by others in the thread.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:59 PM on May 8, 2006
That's about as lame a defense as I've ever heard. I'm sure your tags were just intended as generalized commentary on the presidency itself.
And anyway, your failure to specifally use the word "Bush" was an oversight quickly remedied by others in the thread.
posted by pardonyou? at 2:59 PM on May 8, 2006
I said nothing about Bush.
Oh come on, bukharin, that's very disingenuous.
Next to the $6.1bn price tag, you mockingly mention, "The fold-down stair spares the president from ducking during photogenic entrances and exits."
You've tagged this with President, taxandspend, Icarus and a decapitated French king. Axe-grinding.
posted by matthewr at 3:02 PM on May 8, 2006
Oh come on, bukharin, that's very disingenuous.
Next to the $6.1bn price tag, you mockingly mention, "The fold-down stair spares the president from ducking during photogenic entrances and exits."
You've tagged this with President, taxandspend, Icarus and a decapitated French king. Axe-grinding.
posted by matthewr at 3:02 PM on May 8, 2006
Hopefully they'll give one to Cheney so he'll stop tying up District resources with his goddamned motorcades past my dorm every morning at 7 AM.
Of course, I'm sure the birds are just as loud.
posted by The White Hat at 3:03 PM on May 8, 2006
Of course, I'm sure the birds are just as loud.
posted by The White Hat at 3:03 PM on May 8, 2006
Are these things like hovercrafts or buoyant or something that keeps them from sunking?
posted by dios at 3:05 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by dios at 3:05 PM on May 8, 2006
Buzzv, there's something odd with the numbers in the Popular Science article, since most sources say that the contract is for $1.6 billion.
By defense standards, the contract is not huge -- a squadron of 23 Marine Corps helicopters to be delivered over six years at an estimated price of $1.6 billion
or
That’s rather surprising, when you consider that the whole program will buy a mere 23 helicopters for $1.6 billion, less than programs like the Future Combat Systems or Joint Strike Fighter spend in a year. (PDF)
In any case, this really seems to have nothing at all to do with Bush, or hubris, or similar issues. Perhaps general cost overruns, but still...
posted by blahblahblah at 3:05 PM on May 8, 2006
By defense standards, the contract is not huge -- a squadron of 23 Marine Corps helicopters to be delivered over six years at an estimated price of $1.6 billion
or
That’s rather surprising, when you consider that the whole program will buy a mere 23 helicopters for $1.6 billion, less than programs like the Future Combat Systems or Joint Strike Fighter spend in a year. (PDF)
In any case, this really seems to have nothing at all to do with Bush, or hubris, or similar issues. Perhaps general cost overruns, but still...
posted by blahblahblah at 3:05 PM on May 8, 2006
Marine One never flies without a few other Marine Ones around it (almost a daily occurence in downtown DC). My theory has always been that most of them are decoys, but I've never looked into it.
posted by bardic at 3:07 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by bardic at 3:07 PM on May 8, 2006
That's a lot of pork for Owego, Tioga County, New York. Whose constituency is that?
posted by pracowity at 3:07 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by pracowity at 3:07 PM on May 8, 2006
bardic: Yes, that's what Wikipedia says. Currently there are 19 helicopters used as Marine One. At all times, at least one identical aircraft is used as a decoy.
posted by matthewr at 3:10 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by matthewr at 3:10 PM on May 8, 2006
(And if you really wanted to off the POTUS, I'd suggest an Osprey, the tilt-wing chopper that has a nasty habit of flipping upside down. USians have probably spent many billions more on that disaster.)
posted by bardic at 3:10 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by bardic at 3:10 PM on May 8, 2006
Axe-grinding.
were just intended as generalized commentary on the presidency itself
Yes, actually. But also a critique of our priorities when it comes to allocating the nation's wealth.
The 154 programs being cut or eliminated this year.
posted by bukharin at 3:12 PM on May 8, 2006
were just intended as generalized commentary on the presidency itself
Yes, actually. But also a critique of our priorities when it comes to allocating the nation's wealth.
The 154 programs being cut or eliminated this year.
posted by bukharin at 3:12 PM on May 8, 2006
And the biggest supporter of the new contract? Hilary Clinton. Ooooooooooooh.
Look, I don't like Bush either, but this FPP bashing is ridiculous. There are a lot more interesting things out there, even more interesting things associated with Marine One.
posted by blahblahblah at 3:14 PM on May 8, 2006
Look, I don't like Bush either, but this FPP bashing is ridiculous. There are a lot more interesting things out there, even more interesting things associated with Marine One.
posted by blahblahblah at 3:14 PM on May 8, 2006
So was the "taxandspend" tag used to indicate what you think the government should be doing more of? Or were you lamenting taxing and spending?
posted by dios at 3:15 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by dios at 3:15 PM on May 8, 2006
(What is this new-fangled metatalk I keep hearing so much about?)
posted by bardic at 3:18 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by bardic at 3:18 PM on May 8, 2006
Again, this isn't Bush-bashing. I posted it because I don't know why we're spending $6.1 billion on a fleet of helicopters for the president. Any president.
posted by bukharin at 3:18 PM on May 8, 2006
Why We Shouldn't Manufacture Posts In Order to Make Editorial Points
posted by dios at 3:20 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by dios at 3:20 PM on May 8, 2006
It is a symbolic gesture of the increasing power of the Executive. It's a systemic problem that transcends persons or parties.
posted by stbalbach at 3:20 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by stbalbach at 3:20 PM on May 8, 2006
bukharin, good post. I think your over the heads of most though.
posted by stbalbach at 3:22 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by stbalbach at 3:22 PM on May 8, 2006
"God, what a piece of shit this guy is.
For buying helicopters? Really?"
He's not buying helicopters. YOU (we) are buying him helicopters. Is that what you want your tax dollar spent on, considering the complete mess this country is in at the moment? A photo-op friendly staircase on an obscenely expensive helicopter? Really?
The notion that this guy is aggrandizing himself with 23 custom helicopters at the taxpayer's expense while kids are dying in Iraq and the deficit is now out of control tells you what kind of person this is.
posted by Nicholas West at 3:22 PM on May 8, 2006
For buying helicopters? Really?"
He's not buying helicopters. YOU (we) are buying him helicopters. Is that what you want your tax dollar spent on, considering the complete mess this country is in at the moment? A photo-op friendly staircase on an obscenely expensive helicopter? Really?
The notion that this guy is aggrandizing himself with 23 custom helicopters at the taxpayer's expense while kids are dying in Iraq and the deficit is now out of control tells you what kind of person this is.
posted by Nicholas West at 3:22 PM on May 8, 2006
The notion that this guy is aggrandizing himself with 23 custom helicopters at the taxpayer's expense while kids are dying in Iraq
You must have missed the part of the thread where it was pointed out that this was a policy began by Clinton and won't produce a helicopter until 2009, long after Bush is gone. But don't let that stop you from taking this benign piece of news and trying to make it into another Evil Act Committed by Bush.
posted by dios at 3:25 PM on May 8, 2006
You must have missed the part of the thread where it was pointed out that this was a policy began by Clinton and won't produce a helicopter until 2009, long after Bush is gone. But don't let that stop you from taking this benign piece of news and trying to make it into another Evil Act Committed by Bush.
posted by dios at 3:25 PM on May 8, 2006
$1.6 billion is like what, ten days in Iraq?
Personally, I think the President of the United States should just drive himself everywhere. For international trips, though, we should splurge and let him take first class.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:31 PM on May 8, 2006
Personally, I think the President of the United States should just drive himself everywhere. For international trips, though, we should splurge and let him take first class.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:31 PM on May 8, 2006
I posted it because I don't know why we're spending $6.1 billion on a fleet of helicopters for the president. Any president.
Well, because the current ones are past it. The Sea King is being replaced by all of its users. The Royal Navy replaced the last ASW Sea King with EH101s three years ago. Of course this program costs a fortune: EH101s are big, high-tech, expensive helicopters which will need a lot of money to adapt them to perform this very specialised, but necessary, role. How do you expect the President to get around?
posted by matthewr at 3:31 PM on May 8, 2006
Well, because the current ones are past it. The Sea King is being replaced by all of its users. The Royal Navy replaced the last ASW Sea King with EH101s three years ago. Of course this program costs a fortune: EH101s are big, high-tech, expensive helicopters which will need a lot of money to adapt them to perform this very specialised, but necessary, role. How do you expect the President to get around?
posted by matthewr at 3:31 PM on May 8, 2006
Were they out of good and interesting things to post on the internet? No? Then why the fuck did you post this, retard?
posted by klangklangston at 3:37 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 3:37 PM on May 8, 2006
How do you expect the President to get around?
In a couple of regular run of the mill executive helicopters just like every other CEO?
posted by madajb at 3:37 PM on May 8, 2006
In a couple of regular run of the mill executive helicopters just like every other CEO?
posted by madajb at 3:37 PM on May 8, 2006
So Bill bought some really expensive helicopters as a gift for Hillary. So what? I think it's romantic.
posted by JekPorkins at 3:44 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by JekPorkins at 3:44 PM on May 8, 2006
In a couple of regular run of the mill executive helicopters just like every other CEO?
How can you compare the President to a corporate CEO? People try to kill Presidents.
posted by matthewr at 3:48 PM on May 8, 2006
How can you compare the President to a corporate CEO? People try to kill Presidents.
posted by matthewr at 3:48 PM on May 8, 2006
Who says Bush is going to be gone in 2009? Just because of a silly election? Ha!
posted by dibblda at 3:49 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by dibblda at 3:49 PM on May 8, 2006
sindark writes "The Canadian Navy has been trying to replace its Sea Kings for years. They are by all accounts seriously dated pieces of technology."
Oh well so knifes, internal combustion engines, turbines and a bunch of stuff and they work perfectly, so why upgrade them ? If there is no need, let the private industry invest money into invention. You may notice they don't invest that much or don't invest at all. Why take risks when you can sell an old trusted technology ?
But wait, I smell fake costs in here....
Now if the program was started under Clinton (but I dunno how much was financed under Clinton) it certainly was an advancement..why spend 6 more BILLION on this piece of hardware ? What's the return ? The total cost may reach ridicolous proportions, we may as well buy chinese imitations
posted by elpapacito at 3:54 PM on May 8, 2006
Oh well so knifes, internal combustion engines, turbines and a bunch of stuff and they work perfectly, so why upgrade them ? If there is no need, let the private industry invest money into invention. You may notice they don't invest that much or don't invest at all. Why take risks when you can sell an old trusted technology ?
But wait, I smell fake costs in here....
The VH-71 is based on the US101 helicopter, the American variant of AgustaWestland's successful EH-101 multimission helicopter. AgustaWestlandBell, the U.S. principal subcontractor to Lockheed Martin, has responsibility for the air vehicle design, configuration management and support. More than 200 suppliers in 41 states support the VH-71 program. (source)200 suppliers in 41 states ? Now that's a lot of people interested..and amazing, it's only a -variant- of an helictoper that already exists and is in production
Now if the program was started under Clinton (but I dunno how much was financed under Clinton) it certainly was an advancement..why spend 6 more BILLION on this piece of hardware ? What's the return ? The total cost may reach ridicolous proportions, we may as well buy chinese imitations
posted by elpapacito at 3:54 PM on May 8, 2006
elpapacito: Surely the extra development cost is going to be spent on making it secure enough to fulfil its particular mission. The return is a reduction in the likelihood of the President being killed, which is a good thing, regardless of your opinion of the current incumbent.
posted by matthewr at 3:59 PM on May 8, 2006
posted by matthewr at 3:59 PM on May 8, 2006
My apartment has only twice the floorspace of those helicopters.
The joke is, since the apartment is in California, that means it's worth more than the helicopters! That real estate market! Ha!
OK, it's not really that bad.
posted by breath at 4:00 PM on May 8, 2006
The joke is, since the apartment is in California, that means it's worth more than the helicopters! That real estate market! Ha!
OK, it's not really that bad.
posted by breath at 4:00 PM on May 8, 2006
set to gradually go into service between 2009 and 2014...
That fucking Bush! There he goes trying to curry favor from his successors!
posted by pardonyou? at 2:57 PM PST on May 8 [!]
They ARE for Jeb after Hillary gets her 8 years.
Or are they for 2009 when George W Bush doesn't step down and grabs power.
I forget the real reason, other than they are made of pork.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:00 PM on May 8, 2006
That fucking Bush! There he goes trying to curry favor from his successors!
posted by pardonyou? at 2:57 PM PST on May 8 [!]
They ARE for Jeb after Hillary gets her 8 years.
Or are they for 2009 when George W Bush doesn't step down and grabs power.
I forget the real reason, other than they are made of pork.
posted by rough ashlar at 4:00 PM on May 8, 2006
My apartment has only twice the floorspace of those helicopters.
now all you'll need is a really big tv antenna, a really fast antenna rotator and a pilot's license
posted by pyramid termite at 4:08 PM on May 8, 2006
now all you'll need is a really big tv antenna, a really fast antenna rotator and a pilot's license
posted by pyramid termite at 4:08 PM on May 8, 2006
matthewr writes "elpapacito: Surely the extra development cost is going to be spent on making it secure enough to fulfil its particular mission. The return is a reduction in the likelihood of the President being killed, which is a good thing, regardless of your opinion of the current incumbent.
So your opinion is that a life of a president is worth 6 billion without any shred of proof that much money is needed ? Talk about another irrelevant opinion, ecxpect mine costs zero and just remaking old hardware costs a lot less, your opinion costs 6 billion and there's no proof of return either.
posted by elpapacito at 4:16 PM on May 8, 2006
So your opinion is that a life of a president is worth 6 billion without any shred of proof that much money is needed ? Talk about another irrelevant opinion, ecxpect mine costs zero and just remaking old hardware costs a lot less, your opinion costs 6 billion and there's no proof of return either.
posted by elpapacito at 4:16 PM on May 8, 2006
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Correction: The older choppers are "Sea Kings." The new ones are derived from the "AgustaWestland EH101." The former got stuck in my head.
posted by bukharin at 2:31 PM on May 8, 2006