Hanky Panky
October 15, 2006 6:58 AM Subscribe
The Magic of NSFW. Ursula Martinez has been discussed here before, but I searched for, and failed to find, the first link (google video).
Second to last link is a higher-quality video of the Google video performance. :/
posted by Anonymous at 7:08 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by Anonymous at 7:08 AM on October 15, 2006
What does she do for an encore? Seriously. I'm frightened.
posted by hal9k at 7:16 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by hal9k at 7:16 AM on October 15, 2006
It's a one-trick act, but I'll admit she's pretty good at that one trick.
But... I know those facial expressions are meant to be visible from the back row, but they sure look kinda silly in closeup.
Yeah, I was looking at her face. I must be getting old.
posted by ook at 7:33 AM on October 15, 2006
But... I know those facial expressions are meant to be visible from the back row, but they sure look kinda silly in closeup.
Yeah, I was looking at her face. I must be getting old.
posted by ook at 7:33 AM on October 15, 2006
I kept wondering how she does that magic trick. Yes, I was watching her hands.
posted by davy at 7:36 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by davy at 7:36 AM on October 15, 2006
Ah, the old plastic-thumb-in-the-vagina gambit.
posted by sourwookie at 7:42 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by sourwookie at 7:42 AM on October 15, 2006
The naked magic trick was linked in the previous post. And I still prefer the animated gif.
posted by gleuschk at 7:43 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by gleuschk at 7:43 AM on October 15, 2006
I'm pretty sure GOB has probably at least attempted this trick on some occasion, but probably with less successful results and at an utterly inappropriate time (e.g. show and tell at the local elementary school).
posted by Gnatcho at 7:44 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by Gnatcho at 7:44 AM on October 15, 2006
Ah, the old plastic-thumb-in-the-vagina gambit.
** stickybun spray on keyboard and screen **
posted by YoBananaBoy at 7:58 AM on October 15, 2006
** stickybun spray on keyboard and screen **
posted by YoBananaBoy at 7:58 AM on October 15, 2006
i thought the magic trick was going to be when she revealed her dong.
seriously thought she was a trannie.
posted by rare_g at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2006
seriously thought she was a trannie.
posted by rare_g at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2006
I was considerably unnerved when I initially saw that video just after my seven year old daughter learned the same hollow plastic thumb trick from a magic book I'd given her.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by Turtles all the way down at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2006
illusion, Michael. Tricks are what prostitutes do for money. Or candy.
posted by jonson at 8:02 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by jonson at 8:02 AM on October 15, 2006
Good post. Seriously. I look forward to one covering pingpong ball tricks.
posted by imperium at 8:21 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by imperium at 8:21 AM on October 15, 2006
Turtles... I HOPE it wasn't EXACTLY the same trick your daughter learned!
Also, ugh. OK, her best trick is making my appetite disappear.
posted by The Deej at 8:25 AM on October 15, 2006
Also, ugh. OK, her best trick is making my appetite disappear.
posted by The Deej at 8:25 AM on October 15, 2006
If Paul Daniels had been the first to employ this scenario, naked magicians would have been banned already.
posted by NinjaTadpole at 8:37 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by NinjaTadpole at 8:37 AM on October 15, 2006
Along the lines suggested by The Deej ...
For me, the best magic trick she performs is showing how a well-proportioned, conventionally attractive woman can strip stark naked and prance around on stage making suggestive hip gyrations and breast wiggles, without being even slightly sexy.
posted by jayder at 8:40 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
For me, the best magic trick she performs is showing how a well-proportioned, conventionally attractive woman can strip stark naked and prance around on stage making suggestive hip gyrations and breast wiggles, without being even slightly sexy.
posted by jayder at 8:40 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
Embarrassed. Shamed. Fearfully crap. Beyond banal. I shall be visiting a provincial public house later on today, and some poor fucker is going to get a boot to the teeth as a response to this snot. Thank you for enabling my violent streak. Yeah I should flag it and move on but shitting in this thread actually improves it. The thread not the shit.
posted by econous at 8:55 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by econous at 8:55 AM on October 15, 2006
Would rather see more shots of the girl at 3:53, quite frankly.
posted by wfc123 at 9:00 AM on October 15, 2006
conventionally attractive! lol... what have you been fucking recently? Trash cans? A large bag of cat anuses? Old nappies? Must be a fantasitic experience living in your world jaydar. A world where that freakaziod is conventionally attractive.
posted by econous at 9:08 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by econous at 9:08 AM on October 15, 2006
a well-proportioned, conventionally attractive woman
It's all in the eye of the beholder, of course, but I had a similar reaction to rare_g. I mean, the woman has no hips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but she's not what most heterosexual males consider well proportioned, if the heterosexual males I know are anything to go by.
And yeah, the grimaces were annoying.
posted by languagehat at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2006
It's all in the eye of the beholder, of course, but I had a similar reaction to rare_g. I mean, the woman has no hips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but she's not what most heterosexual males consider well proportioned, if the heterosexual males I know are anything to go by.
And yeah, the grimaces were annoying.
posted by languagehat at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2006
Well, that's one way to make magic interesting.
posted by I Am Not a Lobster at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by I Am Not a Lobster at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2006
Well, that's one way to make magic interesting. Your humor is much to dr, but I like it: "interesting" lolocaust!
posted by econous at 9:16 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by econous at 9:16 AM on October 15, 2006
This thread really does seem to have brought out the frat boys.
posted by tkolar at 9:28 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by tkolar at 9:28 AM on October 15, 2006
Hey, chill out, econous, why all the emotions? Methinks you care a little too much about this thread.
I didn't say I found her attractive, but she strikes me as having a body type that is sought after by many women.
posted by jayder at 9:44 AM on October 15, 2006
I didn't say I found her attractive, but she strikes me as having a body type that is sought after by many women.
posted by jayder at 9:44 AM on October 15, 2006
Just look at the rewards awaiting women who display bodies that are outside of the tiny domain that convention considers attractive.
The woman's a little squared-off, perhaps, and her expressions and gestures are over the top (deliberately so, I'm sure) -- and how does MeFi react? We're throwing up; she's a bag of trash; we've lost our appetite; she's a "cat's anus," a "freakazoid," etc.
Charming display, all of you. Christ only knows how you get through life if something that's only this out-of-normal throws you off.
posted by argybarg at 9:58 AM on October 15, 2006 [3 favorites]
The woman's a little squared-off, perhaps, and her expressions and gestures are over the top (deliberately so, I'm sure) -- and how does MeFi react? We're throwing up; she's a bag of trash; we've lost our appetite; she's a "cat's anus," a "freakazoid," etc.
Charming display, all of you. Christ only knows how you get through life if something that's only this out-of-normal throws you off.
posted by argybarg at 9:58 AM on October 15, 2006 [3 favorites]
A lot of the allure of that performance comes from the "will she or won't she get completely naked" aspect which works but as someone else said, what's next? Unless the magic is incredible, everyone's going to be really disappointed in her next performance if she's still fully clothed by the end of it.
And although she's no raving beauty, it could have been worse. I'm glad Rosie O'Donnell didn't have this idea.
posted by gfrobe at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2006
And although she's no raving beauty, it could have been worse. I'm glad Rosie O'Donnell didn't have this idea.
posted by gfrobe at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2006
argybarg, you make a good point, but there's a weird dynamic in play here.
Over in the thread about women's bodies being changed by pregnancy, people are bending over backward to be respectful of outside-the-norm bodies, women's bodies with a little more weight than pop culture considers acceptable.
Over here, a body that appears (to me, at least) to be the kind of slender body that women are urged to strive for, is pelted with rotten tomatoes.
(When I made the comment about her not being sexy, it wasn't because I have absurdly elevated expectations for how a woman's body should look, but because her grotesque performance [and you must admit that a performance culminating in the apparent extraction of a handkerchief from her vagina or anus is grotesque] overshadowed everything else about her.)
posted by jayder at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2006
Over in the thread about women's bodies being changed by pregnancy, people are bending over backward to be respectful of outside-the-norm bodies, women's bodies with a little more weight than pop culture considers acceptable.
Over here, a body that appears (to me, at least) to be the kind of slender body that women are urged to strive for, is pelted with rotten tomatoes.
(When I made the comment about her not being sexy, it wasn't because I have absurdly elevated expectations for how a woman's body should look, but because her grotesque performance [and you must admit that a performance culminating in the apparent extraction of a handkerchief from her vagina or anus is grotesque] overshadowed everything else about her.)
posted by jayder at 10:08 AM on October 15, 2006
Shit, I did it again, I meant to link to econous' comment, not the member profile.
posted by jayder at 10:11 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by jayder at 10:11 AM on October 15, 2006
'Slender' as she might be, she's ugly as all hell. Sorry, it's not nice to say and all, but she is. And the reason we're discussing it is probably that the magic trick is pretty old hat.
posted by reklaw at 10:15 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by reklaw at 10:15 AM on October 15, 2006
that was revolting.
posted by forallmankind at 10:18 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by forallmankind at 10:18 AM on October 15, 2006
A large bag of cat anuses?
Fantastic. I must try and use that in conversation next week
posted by TheDonF at 10:25 AM on October 15, 2006
Fantastic. I must try and use that in conversation next week
posted by TheDonF at 10:25 AM on October 15, 2006
The weird dynamic, jayder, is because she's acting unashamed -- showing off her less-than-ideal body, in fact, which is the worst sin. We can be gallant and enlightened about slightly overweight or odd-shaped women as long as they're embarassed. But let them actually like their big noses and square hips? Execute the bitches and dump them in the river.
I'm sorry if I'm overreacting, but people in this thread, not everyone, are saying creepy and hateful things because some performer has odd mannerisms and a body that's slightly off ideal. "Ugly as all hell?" "Revolting?" Save it for yourselves.
posted by argybarg at 10:32 AM on October 15, 2006 [5 favorites]
I'm sorry if I'm overreacting, but people in this thread, not everyone, are saying creepy and hateful things because some performer has odd mannerisms and a body that's slightly off ideal. "Ugly as all hell?" "Revolting?" Save it for yourselves.
posted by argybarg at 10:32 AM on October 15, 2006 [5 favorites]
argybarg wrote...
The weird dynamic, jayder, is because she's acting unashamed -- showing off her less-than-ideal body, in fact, which is the worst sin. We can be gallant and enlightened about slightly overweight or odd-shaped women as long as they're embarassed. But let them actually like their big noses and square hips? Execute the bitches and dump them in the river.
I had a similar thought while reading these comments. She has the gall to be naked, playful, and unashamed. Therefore she must be the subject of intense ridicule.
I really haven't seen a dynamic like this since high school. Or, perhaps, some fraternities in college.
Depressing, really.
posted by tkolar at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
The weird dynamic, jayder, is because she's acting unashamed -- showing off her less-than-ideal body, in fact, which is the worst sin. We can be gallant and enlightened about slightly overweight or odd-shaped women as long as they're embarassed. But let them actually like their big noses and square hips? Execute the bitches and dump them in the river.
I had a similar thought while reading these comments. She has the gall to be naked, playful, and unashamed. Therefore she must be the subject of intense ridicule.
I really haven't seen a dynamic like this since high school. Or, perhaps, some fraternities in college.
Depressing, really.
posted by tkolar at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
For the record: My "lost my appetite" comment had NOTHING to do with her appearance.
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
That is incredibly unappetizing.
posted by The Deej at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2006
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
That is incredibly unappetizing.
posted by The Deej at 10:41 AM on October 15, 2006
she's pulling a handkerchief out of her cootchie, argybarg: that's revolting. As much as if the performer was male and was pulling it out of his ass. My comment is simply on her abject lack of taste.
posted by forallmankind at 10:42 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by forallmankind at 10:42 AM on October 15, 2006
I don't find her performance remotely sexy (it's the opposite of sexy), but I am attracted to her command of the stage and her comfort with her body (her sense of humor about her body). So, paradoxically, I find her attractive.
If I was looking to date her, and I saw her do this act, I wouldn't be turned off. I wouldn't be turned on sexually DURING the act, but I would be turned on mentally. I'd think, "Well, she's fun and interesting, and I'm pretty sure she can turn off the goofiness when the time is right."
As someone who has watched a considerable amount of magic, I also enjoyed her skill (I know how it's done). I really like slight-of-hand, toned down magic. It's not that she did anything special. She just did an old old trick. But she did it well.
she's ugly as all hell. Sorry, it's not nice to say and all, but she is.
This is such a weird thing to say. What does it mean? Most people (based on what data?) would find her unattractive? She doesn't conform to some sort of standards?
If Fred finds her attractive, is he wrong? What would it mean for him to be wrong? Maybe you could prove to Fred that she's "out of proportion" or that most people aren't into her. And maybe Fred will even accept all that. But, still, Fred finds her attractive. Beauty really IS in the mind of the beholder. How can you argue otherwise? I'm a heterosexual male, and I don't find Julia Roberts or Angelina Jolie attractive. Am I wrong?
posted by grumblebee at 10:44 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
If I was looking to date her, and I saw her do this act, I wouldn't be turned off. I wouldn't be turned on sexually DURING the act, but I would be turned on mentally. I'd think, "Well, she's fun and interesting, and I'm pretty sure she can turn off the goofiness when the time is right."
As someone who has watched a considerable amount of magic, I also enjoyed her skill (I know how it's done). I really like slight-of-hand, toned down magic. It's not that she did anything special. She just did an old old trick. But she did it well.
she's ugly as all hell. Sorry, it's not nice to say and all, but she is.
This is such a weird thing to say. What does it mean? Most people (based on what data?) would find her unattractive? She doesn't conform to some sort of standards?
If Fred finds her attractive, is he wrong? What would it mean for him to be wrong? Maybe you could prove to Fred that she's "out of proportion" or that most people aren't into her. And maybe Fred will even accept all that. But, still, Fred finds her attractive. Beauty really IS in the mind of the beholder. How can you argue otherwise? I'm a heterosexual male, and I don't find Julia Roberts or Angelina Jolie attractive. Am I wrong?
posted by grumblebee at 10:44 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
I think she looks like Molly Shannon. Molly Shannon ain't sexy in the slightest, but it wasn't her intention to be sexy. Truly, the lesson we have learned here today is that not all nekkid chicks are hot.
posted by msali at 10:46 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by msali at 10:46 AM on October 15, 2006
It's the same handkerchief each time, she uses both hands to "pull" it, it never went in her vagina. Whether or not you consider her beautiful or ugly, the aim was the same, to distract you from the slight of hand necessary to pull off such an illusion.
P.S. I see no reason to hold a grudge against a woman's genetics nor lifestyle.
posted by furtive at 10:49 AM on October 15, 2006
P.S. I see no reason to hold a grudge against a woman's genetics nor lifestyle.
posted by furtive at 10:49 AM on October 15, 2006
Deej, you may be a bit behind the times, men ain't supposed to find that unappetizing.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:50 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by jeffburdges at 10:50 AM on October 15, 2006
FWIW: I am aware that it doesn't really come out of her cootchie. Thank you.
posted by forallmankind at 10:56 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by forallmankind at 10:56 AM on October 15, 2006
Sleight of twat.
posted by pracowity at 10:59 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by pracowity at 10:59 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
Hell, that's nothing. My girlfriend pulled a baby out of hers.
posted by lekvar at 11:00 AM on October 15, 2006 [16 favorites]
Hell, that's nothing. My girlfriend pulled a baby out of hers.
posted by lekvar at 11:00 AM on October 15, 2006 [16 favorites]
Jesus fucking christ, talk about fear of a female planet.
Her performance, which was not a magic show and not an essay about beauty, but a performance art event, comes out of a discipline that's at least 30 years old, and it reminded me of a light, updated version of Carol Schneeman's "Interior Scroll." You could also make comparisions to Annie Sprinkle, Karen Finley, Ann Magnuson, Lucas Samaras, and Marina Abromovic to name a few. Many people find the entire genre shocking, eminently mockable, dull, or uncomfortable, but like any obscure art that makes no one any money, many people find it liberating, profoundly critical in an age of diminshed critical reasoning, or just freaking fantastic. Freaking philistines here on the blue today, tho, hunh, haters! Show us your flippin tits, you big ole balding paunchy computer geeks! So nice you know how to make a hanky disappear!
posted by DenOfSizer at 11:05 AM on October 15, 2006 [4 favorites]
Her performance, which was not a magic show and not an essay about beauty, but a performance art event, comes out of a discipline that's at least 30 years old, and it reminded me of a light, updated version of Carol Schneeman's "Interior Scroll." You could also make comparisions to Annie Sprinkle, Karen Finley, Ann Magnuson, Lucas Samaras, and Marina Abromovic to name a few. Many people find the entire genre shocking, eminently mockable, dull, or uncomfortable, but like any obscure art that makes no one any money, many people find it liberating, profoundly critical in an age of diminshed critical reasoning, or just freaking fantastic. Freaking philistines here on the blue today, tho, hunh, haters! Show us your flippin tits, you big ole balding paunchy computer geeks! So nice you know how to make a hanky disappear!
posted by DenOfSizer at 11:05 AM on October 15, 2006 [4 favorites]
Good heavens. One would think that people had odd ideas about biology. It's not like she peed on the stage. It was an old trick executed well and with amusement.
If the idea of an illusion involving her pulling a bit of silk out of her vagina is revolting to you, you might want to remember the next time you ogle a totally hawt babe that that babe does indeed pinch off huge steaming loafs in the toilet like the rest of us. Sorry to shatter that particular illusion for you.
posted by illiad at 11:11 AM on October 15, 2006
If the idea of an illusion involving her pulling a bit of silk out of her vagina is revolting to you, you might want to remember the next time you ogle a totally hawt babe that that babe does indeed pinch off huge steaming loafs in the toilet like the rest of us. Sorry to shatter that particular illusion for you.
posted by illiad at 11:11 AM on October 15, 2006
lol levkar
jeff: I'd rather be behind the times, I guess, if that's supposed to be attractive. And did it have to be RED????
furtive: I know how the trick is done. It doesn't matter whether or not it ACTUALLY was in there or not. It just looked blechy. To each his own. That's why people pay good money to go to Bangkok.
posted by The Deej at 11:13 AM on October 15, 2006
jeff: I'd rather be behind the times, I guess, if that's supposed to be attractive. And did it have to be RED????
furtive: I know how the trick is done. It doesn't matter whether or not it ACTUALLY was in there or not. It just looked blechy. To each his own. That's why people pay good money to go to Bangkok.
posted by The Deej at 11:13 AM on October 15, 2006
DenOfSizer: no, it's not a peformance art event - it's the Just For Laughs festival in Montreal: a comedy festival. In such your comment - and her performance IMO - are out of context.
posted by forallmankind at 11:14 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by forallmankind at 11:14 AM on October 15, 2006
DenOfSizer: whew. Finally somebody shows up who understands what's going on.
Martinez ^ is a performance artist who's won a number of awards. She has had three major pieces which have toured Europe and the US and her latest show is at the Barbican.
This is one small piece she does that integrates her early "cabaret magic" career with her performance art, much of which is about making the audience uncomfortable. In one of her major shows, she and her parents sit onstage naked -- talking about her teenage realization that she was gay. In another, the audience is very aware that she and a real-life ex-lover are acting out parts of their failed relationship.
The joke, such as it is, is that obviously everyone is distracted by the getting naked, but it goes a step beyond just that and in fact it becomes about how far the act is going to go. It's about the audience's squick point. Thus the final surprise (fake) hiding locations.
Her facial expressions are obviously for the balcony, and don't play as well in close-up.
I did have some of the same reaction as jayder, but I have since wondered if that's just because she's gay, even though I didn't know it at the time. There's probably a level at which young gay women just don't learn how to look sexy for men -- as they adopt a personal iconography of appearance and emotive expression that appeals to women only or even to gay women only. I think that's part of the undercurrent, anyway.
posted by dhartung at 11:19 AM on October 15, 2006
Martinez ^ is a performance artist who's won a number of awards. She has had three major pieces which have toured Europe and the US and her latest show is at the Barbican.
This is one small piece she does that integrates her early "cabaret magic" career with her performance art, much of which is about making the audience uncomfortable. In one of her major shows, she and her parents sit onstage naked -- talking about her teenage realization that she was gay. In another, the audience is very aware that she and a real-life ex-lover are acting out parts of their failed relationship.
The joke, such as it is, is that obviously everyone is distracted by the getting naked, but it goes a step beyond just that and in fact it becomes about how far the act is going to go. It's about the audience's squick point. Thus the final surprise (fake) hiding locations.
Her facial expressions are obviously for the balcony, and don't play as well in close-up.
I did have some of the same reaction as jayder, but I have since wondered if that's just because she's gay, even though I didn't know it at the time. There's probably a level at which young gay women just don't learn how to look sexy for men -- as they adopt a personal iconography of appearance and emotive expression that appeals to women only or even to gay women only. I think that's part of the undercurrent, anyway.
posted by dhartung at 11:19 AM on October 15, 2006
If Fred finds her attractive, is he wrong? What would it mean for him to be wrong? Maybe you could prove to Fred that she's "out of proportion" or that most people aren't into her. And maybe Fred will even accept all that. But, still, Fred finds her attractive. Beauty really IS in the mind of the beholder. How can you argue otherwise? I'm a heterosexual male, and I don't find Julia Roberts or Angelina Jolie attractive. Am I wrong?
uh, no, you can't be called "wrong", but you can be considered a douchebag for discussing it on the internets.
seriously, how do any of you putzes think the rest of us need or want to read this misogynist, adolescent ranting. its a fucking magic trick, or a comedy routine, not a lapdance, and the "NSFW" doesnt stand for "time to pull out your wanker and spooge all over your keyboard". there are better sites for that, your insights will be much more appreciated there.
PS: if it was copperfield or blaine, your first thought (as a hetero) wouldnt be to talk about how hot (or not) you thought his ass was in those tight pants.
posted by mano at 11:21 AM on October 15, 2006
uh, no, you can't be called "wrong", but you can be considered a douchebag for discussing it on the internets.
seriously, how do any of you putzes think the rest of us need or want to read this misogynist, adolescent ranting. its a fucking magic trick, or a comedy routine, not a lapdance, and the "NSFW" doesnt stand for "time to pull out your wanker and spooge all over your keyboard". there are better sites for that, your insights will be much more appreciated there.
PS: if it was copperfield or blaine, your first thought (as a hetero) wouldnt be to talk about how hot (or not) you thought his ass was in those tight pants.
posted by mano at 11:21 AM on October 15, 2006
gleuschk: lol!
Blechy is the best word I can think of.
posted by The Deej at 11:21 AM on October 15, 2006
Blechy is the best word I can think of.
posted by The Deej at 11:21 AM on October 15, 2006
I have seen a trick were an audience member writes their name on a playing card. Then the magician pulls the card out of of an orange in his pocket. Then he gives them the card and everyone goes wow, how did you get the card in the orange in your pocket? It would be funny if she did that trick, but with her vagina.
posted by Mr_Zero at 11:22 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by Mr_Zero at 11:22 AM on October 15, 2006
Thanks, dhartung, for the link. This part of it speaks volumes to her denigraters here:
But now, to Martinez's consternation, a filmed version of the strip routine has been posted on the net. "In front of a live audience," she says, "many of whom will be completely unsuspecting and who don't know what it is they are going to see, what I do is the complete opposite of a traditional striptease. Put it on the internet, where it can be viewed at the click of a button, it becomes something else entirely. I feel that I've lost control of something whose power and impact came entirely from the fact I was in control."
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:29 AM on October 15, 2006
But now, to Martinez's consternation, a filmed version of the strip routine has been posted on the net. "In front of a live audience," she says, "many of whom will be completely unsuspecting and who don't know what it is they are going to see, what I do is the complete opposite of a traditional striptease. Put it on the internet, where it can be viewed at the click of a button, it becomes something else entirely. I feel that I've lost control of something whose power and impact came entirely from the fact I was in control."
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:29 AM on October 15, 2006
Mr. Zero, does that mean pull an orange out, or just the card? Cuz.... papercut!
posted by The Deej at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by The Deej at 11:30 AM on October 15, 2006
This thead, on a random click-age of usernames, appears to have been commented on by (virtually) all males. Any female MeFites care to say something about our male attitude and whether, as I suspect, we're mostly coming across *really* badly?
posted by TheDonF at 11:34 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by TheDonF at 11:34 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Forallmankind - well, you've identified the importance of context correctly, at least. Her show was even MORE daring and courageous because it was at a Comedy Festival (oh, maybe not akin to Dylan playing electrified at the folk festival), but your slavish devotion to titular accuracy is duly noted.
posted by DenOfSizer at 11:35 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 11:35 AM on October 15, 2006
And that orange'd be WAY funnier coming out of your ass, Mr. Zero. That'd crack me the fuck up.
posted by DenOfSizer at 11:36 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 11:36 AM on October 15, 2006
This thead, on a random click-age of usernames, appears to have been commented on by (virtually) all males. Any female MeFites care to say something about our male attitude and whether, as I suspect, we're mostly coming across *really* badly?
posted by TheDonF
I'm female.
You're mostly coming across really, really bad.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:37 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by TheDonF
I'm female.
You're mostly coming across really, really bad.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:37 AM on October 15, 2006 [2 favorites]
thanks for the info dhartung - it certainly helps in understanding her act.
But like I noted to DenOfSizer - it's a comedy festival. If we went to a rocket museum and one of the exhibits was a dinosaur, everyone would be noting the curious inclusion of a dinosaur in a rocket museum - that's what's happening here, so no need for the "don't you get it, idiots". Another performance artist shocks the nation: gah.
posted by forallmankind at 11:38 AM on October 15, 2006
But like I noted to DenOfSizer - it's a comedy festival. If we went to a rocket museum and one of the exhibits was a dinosaur, everyone would be noting the curious inclusion of a dinosaur in a rocket museum - that's what's happening here, so no need for the "don't you get it, idiots". Another performance artist shocks the nation: gah.
posted by forallmankind at 11:38 AM on October 15, 2006
Maybe this goes to show the importance of context in posts.
If we had been told that she was gay; that her performance is part of a larger critique of gender roles and sexuality; that her performance is part of a long, venerable theatrical tradition of women pulling foreign objects out of their vaginas onstage; then maybe we (all of us guys) would have been spared the experience of looking like misogynistic assholes not much more respectful of women than the Duke lacross team.
I actually thought that by stripping naked, gyrating her hips, and pulling something out of her vagina, she was trying to be sexy. Is that really such a dumb assumption to make, for those of us unfamiliar with her work?
posted by jayder at 11:50 AM on October 15, 2006
If we had been told that she was gay; that her performance is part of a larger critique of gender roles and sexuality; that her performance is part of a long, venerable theatrical tradition of women pulling foreign objects out of their vaginas onstage; then maybe we (all of us guys) would have been spared the experience of looking like misogynistic assholes not much more respectful of women than the Duke lacross team.
I actually thought that by stripping naked, gyrating her hips, and pulling something out of her vagina, she was trying to be sexy. Is that really such a dumb assumption to make, for those of us unfamiliar with her work?
posted by jayder at 11:50 AM on October 15, 2006
I had something to say about her performance before reading the thread but I forgot what it was, halfway through all the comments here from men disgusted that she wasn't sexy. I find it ridiculous that naked men are always so hilarious, but naked women must always be trying to be hot. Thank god she didn't try to play the piano with her tits, because you know, that would be gross. And unsexy.
What a bunch of wankers.
posted by iconomy at 11:59 AM on October 15, 2006 [3 favorites]
What a bunch of wankers.
posted by iconomy at 11:59 AM on October 15, 2006 [3 favorites]
PS: if it was copperfield or blaine, your first thought (as a hetero) wouldn't be to talk about how hot (or not) you thought his ass was in those tight pants.
This was in response to something I wrote. Yet my first thought wasn't how hot (or not) her ass was. My first thought was, "fun cabaret act," which was the spirit in which I posted the link.
My comment about whether or not she's "hot" -- which really (as a monogamous, happily married guy), I don't care about -- was in response to some earlier posts here.
I'm always stunned when people claim that certain people ARE or AREN'T attractive, and they're not making a subjective claim. I don't get what that can mean, other than "so-and-so isn't attractive to many people". Even if that's true, that doesn't discount the experience -- the visceral experience -- of people who DO feel that so-and-so is attractive."
Frankly, I'm bored by discussions of whether or not this performer (or anyone) is attractive. Where can such conversation lead?
but you can be considered a douchebag for discussing it on the internets.
mano, of all the people in this thread, I don't know why you're singling me out. Is it because I started the thread? Do you feel like I should have been smart enough to know that people can't discuss something like this without making misogynistic comments? Is THAT why I'm a douchebag? If so, maybe I should have thought more carefully before posting, but honestly: someone sent me a link to the video, I watched it, got a laugh (not at the performer's expense -- I laughed because I truly enjoyed her act), showed it to some friends who also liked it, and thought it would be nice to share the laugh with a larger number of people.
So I'm sorry I created a catalyst for misogyny, but my intentions were pure.
posted by grumblebee at 12:00 PM on October 15, 2006
This was in response to something I wrote. Yet my first thought wasn't how hot (or not) her ass was. My first thought was, "fun cabaret act," which was the spirit in which I posted the link.
My comment about whether or not she's "hot" -- which really (as a monogamous, happily married guy), I don't care about -- was in response to some earlier posts here.
I'm always stunned when people claim that certain people ARE or AREN'T attractive, and they're not making a subjective claim. I don't get what that can mean, other than "so-and-so isn't attractive to many people". Even if that's true, that doesn't discount the experience -- the visceral experience -- of people who DO feel that so-and-so is attractive."
Frankly, I'm bored by discussions of whether or not this performer (or anyone) is attractive. Where can such conversation lead?
but you can be considered a douchebag for discussing it on the internets.
mano, of all the people in this thread, I don't know why you're singling me out. Is it because I started the thread? Do you feel like I should have been smart enough to know that people can't discuss something like this without making misogynistic comments? Is THAT why I'm a douchebag? If so, maybe I should have thought more carefully before posting, but honestly: someone sent me a link to the video, I watched it, got a laugh (not at the performer's expense -- I laughed because I truly enjoyed her act), showed it to some friends who also liked it, and thought it would be nice to share the laugh with a larger number of people.
So I'm sorry I created a catalyst for misogyny, but my intentions were pure.
posted by grumblebee at 12:00 PM on October 15, 2006
If Andy Kaufman was still alive, he would love her act. It's as much about the audience's reaction as it is about the performance itself.
posted by The Deej at 12:01 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by The Deej at 12:01 PM on October 15, 2006
iconomy: She was gyrating her muff to the music, for God's sake --- why should we not assume she is trying to be hot?
I really don't think there's any misogyny at work here. (Except, perhaps, for the commenters likening her to "trash" or cats' anuses.) I guarantee we would be just as grossed out --- more so --- if it were a naked man jiggling his schlong to the beat and pulling something out of his hairy butt.
posted by jayder at 12:05 PM on October 15, 2006
I really don't think there's any misogyny at work here. (Except, perhaps, for the commenters likening her to "trash" or cats' anuses.) I guarantee we would be just as grossed out --- more so --- if it were a naked man jiggling his schlong to the beat and pulling something out of his hairy butt.
posted by jayder at 12:05 PM on October 15, 2006
if it was copperfield or blaine, your first thought (as a hetero) wouldnt be to talk about how hot (or not) you thought his ass was in those tight pants.
Oh, fuck right off. If Copperfield or Blaine got up there on that stage and got naked, I would be discussing how ugly they looked naked it exactly the same way.
Oh BUT IT'S ART blah blah blah whatever... doesn't mean we can't say she's ugly, mate.
posted by reklaw at 12:08 PM on October 15, 2006
Oh, fuck right off. If Copperfield or Blaine got up there on that stage and got naked, I would be discussing how ugly they looked naked it exactly the same way.
Oh BUT IT'S ART blah blah blah whatever... doesn't mean we can't say she's ugly, mate.
posted by reklaw at 12:08 PM on October 15, 2006
I shall be visiting a provincial public house later on today, and some poor fucker is going to get a boot to the teeth as a response to this snot.
econous, we've read your posts -- you're a geek who spends his time posting on Metafilter. If there's *any* poor fucker in that provincial pub who is going to be getting a boot to the teeth tonight, my money would be on it being you.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:08 PM on October 15, 2006
econous, we've read your posts -- you're a geek who spends his time posting on Metafilter. If there's *any* poor fucker in that provincial pub who is going to be getting a boot to the teeth tonight, my money would be on it being you.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:08 PM on October 15, 2006
Class act. Especially the part where she pulls the hankerchief out of her twat.
posted by meh at 12:09 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by meh at 12:09 PM on October 15, 2006
Call for Mr Grumblebee - your FPP wants a "performanceart" tag.
posted by forallmankind at 12:09 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by forallmankind at 12:09 PM on October 15, 2006
After reading all through that I deserve someone telling me how the trick is done
posted by A189Nut at 12:15 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by A189Nut at 12:15 PM on October 15, 2006
It would have been better if all of the "disappeared" handkerchiefs had been pulled out at the end, one after the other.
posted by interrobang at 12:15 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by interrobang at 12:15 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Yes, I know there was only one handkerchief.
posted by interrobang at 12:16 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by interrobang at 12:16 PM on October 15, 2006
If Andy Kaufman was still alive, he would love her act.
If Andy Kaufman were still alive, he would wrestle her to the ground and make her asshole sing "Feelings."
posted by pracowity at 12:16 PM on October 15, 2006
If Andy Kaufman were still alive, he would wrestle her to the ground and make her asshole sing "Feelings."
posted by pracowity at 12:16 PM on October 15, 2006
Mano: "PS: if it was copperfield or blaine, your first thought (as a hetero) wouldnt be to talk about how hot (or not) you thought his ass was in those tight pants."
If their routine involved stripping down to confront you with their body, then sure, my first reaction would be an esthetic one. Being hetero, it is generally negative when it comes to men, but not always. Try to make your point without the namecalling, underscored no less. You come off as far more adolescent than the post you are quoting.
posted by Manjusri at 12:24 PM on October 15, 2006
If their routine involved stripping down to confront you with their body, then sure, my first reaction would be an esthetic one. Being hetero, it is generally negative when it comes to men, but not always. Try to make your point without the namecalling, underscored no less. You come off as far more adolescent than the post you are quoting.
posted by Manjusri at 12:24 PM on October 15, 2006
Jaydar, absolutely the FPP would've benefitted from at least a link to the artist's own site, if not some framing material.
Iconomy, I honestly had trouble parsing what you meant there^, because you are clearly high or riled or something and got distracted from your own writing, but did you mean that performance artists are wankers, or the posters on this thread are? Just wonderin'! 8-)
Forallmankind, oh for heaven's sake if you want to flot this dead contextural horse; the Montreal Comedy Festival isn't like some HBO stand-up venue, and they spelled it all out on their website. Combining the traditions of vaudeville and music hall, La Clique is a variety show featuring an astonishing array of the sexiest, funniest, wettest and wildest acts you'll ever see. It celebrates the risk, danger, sensuality and pure unadulterated pleasure that a night at the circus... the cabaret... or the burlesque theatre should be. Produced in association with Spiegeltent Productions.
posted by DenOfSizer at 12:27 PM on October 15, 2006
Iconomy, I honestly had trouble parsing what you meant there^, because you are clearly high or riled or something and got distracted from your own writing, but did you mean that performance artists are wankers, or the posters on this thread are? Just wonderin'! 8-)
Forallmankind, oh for heaven's sake if you want to flot this dead contextural horse; the Montreal Comedy Festival isn't like some HBO stand-up venue, and they spelled it all out on their website. Combining the traditions of vaudeville and music hall, La Clique is a variety show featuring an astonishing array of the sexiest, funniest, wettest and wildest acts you'll ever see. It celebrates the risk, danger, sensuality and pure unadulterated pleasure that a night at the circus... the cabaret... or the burlesque theatre should be. Produced in association with Spiegeltent Productions.
posted by DenOfSizer at 12:27 PM on October 15, 2006
I really don't think there's any misogyny at work here. (Except, perhaps, for the commenters likening her to "trash" or cats' anuses.)
isn't that like saying, "I really don't think there are any racists here. (Except, perhaps, for the guys in the white sheets with the burning cross."
posted by leftcoastbob at 12:27 PM on October 15, 2006
isn't that like saying, "I really don't think there are any racists here. (Except, perhaps, for the guys in the white sheets with the burning cross."
posted by leftcoastbob at 12:27 PM on October 15, 2006
Jaydar, re: if it were a naked man jiggling his schlong to the beat and pulling something out of his hairy butt. Ask and ye shall receive.
posted by DenOfSizer at 12:37 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 12:37 PM on October 15, 2006
because you are clearly high or riled or something
You don't understand what I wrote, so I must be high? Heh. Ok. I'm not high or even riled. I am something, though. Really something.
posted by iconomy at 12:39 PM on October 15, 2006
You don't understand what I wrote, so I must be high? Heh. Ok. I'm not high or even riled. I am something, though. Really something.
posted by iconomy at 12:39 PM on October 15, 2006
leftcoast, id add:
"I really don't think there are any racists here. Except, perhaps, for the guys in the white sheets with the burning cross. And all the people actively defending their freedom of opinion or sense of humor or good intentions or whatever. And then all the uncomfortable people who are not saying anything at all. Yep, no problems with racism here... stay cool folks."
posted by mano at 12:40 PM on October 15, 2006
"I really don't think there are any racists here. Except, perhaps, for the guys in the white sheets with the burning cross. And all the people actively defending their freedom of opinion or sense of humor or good intentions or whatever. And then all the uncomfortable people who are not saying anything at all. Yep, no problems with racism here... stay cool folks."
posted by mano at 12:40 PM on October 15, 2006
I think the Andy Kaufman reference was generally made because he's the most well-known example of someone classified as "comedy" when he was really more of a performance artist.
Anyway, I liked this. I've seen quite a few vaudeville-burlesque shows in the last year or so with acts similar to this (like, uncomfortable acts done while nude), and they are definitely meant as a conscious throw-back to old timey, slightly grotesque vaudeville acts that haven't been part of (mainstream) public entertainment for 100 years or so. (This act is one I've always wanted to see live. Maybe naked would make it better...) She's naked, and miming sexy movements, but I think it's pretty obvious she's more about fun than trying to make people think "I want to fuck her," or whatever you haters up there think she's supposed to be saying. It was a well-timed, well-performed act.
posted by ruby.aftermath at 12:40 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I liked this. I've seen quite a few vaudeville-burlesque shows in the last year or so with acts similar to this (like, uncomfortable acts done while nude), and they are definitely meant as a conscious throw-back to old timey, slightly grotesque vaudeville acts that haven't been part of (mainstream) public entertainment for 100 years or so. (This act is one I've always wanted to see live. Maybe naked would make it better...) She's naked, and miming sexy movements, but I think it's pretty obvious she's more about fun than trying to make people think "I want to fuck her," or whatever you haters up there think she's supposed to be saying. It was a well-timed, well-performed act.
posted by ruby.aftermath at 12:40 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
It seemed obvious to me that she was critiquing striptease in the way the made her gyrations obvious and overstated-- the opposite of flirtatious, brazen.
She was one of the least naked naked people you might imagine, because she projected an aura of control and confidence, rather than well, nakedness and coy vulnerability. Strippers try to give their customers an illusion of power-- she played on that by overstatement and caricature, thereby making her seem very "unsexy."
I'm not surprised she didn't like the loss of control she felt when she learned it had been posted online.
But I am surprised at how effective she was at desexing what actually is a quite hot body simply by projecting invulnerability, comic exaggeration and dominance.
I bet if some of the people posting here who said she was not attractive saw a still of her body in a sexual pose and didn't know it was her, they'd find her hot. If a bit small chested, admittedly-- but not all men think tits need to be giant to be hot.
posted by Maias at 12:40 PM on October 15, 2006 [6 favorites]
hey grumblebee, i dont think the comments were uncalled for, the original post was fine and the performance fairly amusing.
i turned to the comments hoping someone would discuss the sleight of hand involved, and unfortunately i was rewarded with this douchebaggery.
posted by mano at 12:46 PM on October 15, 2006
i turned to the comments hoping someone would discuss the sleight of hand involved, and unfortunately i was rewarded with this douchebaggery.
posted by mano at 12:46 PM on October 15, 2006
Female here, and I must admit that even when she still had her suit on, I thought to myself that she had no waist. Once she was nekkid, it was obvious that she is slender, but again, straight up and down. Not saying whether it's good or bad, just sayin'.
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:51 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by Oriole Adams at 12:51 PM on October 15, 2006
I think the point is that she kicks ass. Little else is relevant.
posted by ephemerae at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by ephemerae at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
As an aside, the male-pig side of me wishes that it was Diane Lane or Mira Sorvino or Salma Hayek doing that act. But then, I'd spend money to watch any of them to do laundry for two hours.
posted by illiad at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by illiad at 1:07 PM on October 15, 2006
Maias is exactly right:
But I am surprised at how effective she was at desexing what actually is a quite hot body simply by projecting invulnerability, comic exaggeration and dominance.
The odd thing about this thread is that there are several MeFites here who have leapt at the chance to ridicule other MeFites for not having a sufficiently sophisticated or nuanced view of Martinez's act, for being sexist in commenting on her attractiveness, etc. It's a bit weird that people are being lectured for not having a properly respectful and cultured appreciation of such an over-the-top performance. Is it really fair to get all schoolmarmish about someone's reaction to a performance that is all about getting a reaction out of the audience?
None of these people defending Martinez or maligning other people for misogyny have provided any explanation of precisely what the importance or value of her act is, aside from alluding vaguely to its nature as performance art or its place in a long tradition. It's an enigmatic performance, and thus open to a variety of responses. Those of you who find sexism or a frat-house mentality in the responses haven't been effective in articulating the basis for the more elevated response you seem to desire.
Saying something is performance art, or part of a long tradition, doesn't say anything about why it is important.
posted by jayder at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
But I am surprised at how effective she was at desexing what actually is a quite hot body simply by projecting invulnerability, comic exaggeration and dominance.
The odd thing about this thread is that there are several MeFites here who have leapt at the chance to ridicule other MeFites for not having a sufficiently sophisticated or nuanced view of Martinez's act, for being sexist in commenting on her attractiveness, etc. It's a bit weird that people are being lectured for not having a properly respectful and cultured appreciation of such an over-the-top performance. Is it really fair to get all schoolmarmish about someone's reaction to a performance that is all about getting a reaction out of the audience?
None of these people defending Martinez or maligning other people for misogyny have provided any explanation of precisely what the importance or value of her act is, aside from alluding vaguely to its nature as performance art or its place in a long tradition. It's an enigmatic performance, and thus open to a variety of responses. Those of you who find sexism or a frat-house mentality in the responses haven't been effective in articulating the basis for the more elevated response you seem to desire.
Saying something is performance art, or part of a long tradition, doesn't say anything about why it is important.
posted by jayder at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
I was interested in this thread at all, because the phrase "The Magic of NSFW" is a big ol' spoiler, given the one trick nature of the "act," and the OP has been pretty vocal in opposing front page spoilers on The Blue, by others, elsewhere. I'm sensing we're being treated to "performance art," right here, by one of our own.
I don't know whether to applaud the OP or laugh at the thread, though.
posted by paulsc at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2006
I don't know whether to applaud the OP or laugh at the thread, though.
posted by paulsc at 1:08 PM on October 15, 2006
PeterMcDermott whats up mate, is she your mom? No? Good I didn't think she could be a parent as it would involve attracting a mate, which her tourettes syndrome and jazz hands would seem to preclude. Sorry all, my sense of humor rarely translates. Yet I don't let that stop me.
posted by econous at 1:12 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by econous at 1:12 PM on October 15, 2006
mano, not everyone likes to know the secrets of such tricks, but if you don't mind having the illusion spoiled, check this link.
posted by grumblebee at 1:14 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 1:14 PM on October 15, 2006
Well, ok. I didn't see it as sexy. Then again, most of the time people are trying to be sexy I find it unsexy.
And it surprises me that so many people here notice the clowning, the fact that she doesn't have a traditional stripper body, and the squik factor of miming the hanky out of the vagina, and fail to figure it out. It wasn't supposed to turn you on. (And why is it that anyone assumes in this age that any appearance of a naked person on stage must be erotic?) It was supposed to make you laugh uncomfortably.
Rather like the Aristocrats, it works by repeatedly crossing the comfort line of the audience, and using charisma and showmanship to keep you giggling the entire way.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:26 PM on October 15, 2006
And it surprises me that so many people here notice the clowning, the fact that she doesn't have a traditional stripper body, and the squik factor of miming the hanky out of the vagina, and fail to figure it out. It wasn't supposed to turn you on. (And why is it that anyone assumes in this age that any appearance of a naked person on stage must be erotic?) It was supposed to make you laugh uncomfortably.
Rather like the Aristocrats, it works by repeatedly crossing the comfort line of the audience, and using charisma and showmanship to keep you giggling the entire way.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 1:26 PM on October 15, 2006
None of these people defending Martinez or maligning other people for misogyny have provided any explanation of precisely what the importance or value of her act is, aside from alluding vaguely to its nature as performance art or its place in a long tradition.
I thought it was innocent fun. The music made me smile (and I was humming it for the rest of the night), the slight-of-hand was well executed, and the facial expressions made me giggle. That was the sum-and-total of why I liked it and why I posted it. I posted it in the same spirit that someone might share a fun Onion story with a friend. I don't think it's particularly profound. I just think it's fun.
I sort of stunned by the level of the reaction. Surely most adult males see naked women all the time, either live (girlfriends/wives) or in movies.
If this performance is supposed to be sexy or provocative, then -- for me -- it's only vaguely so, like the Benny Hill Show or a "saucy seaside postcard." It's sort too quaint to be really shocking. Maybe I'm jaded by too much NYC theatre. But this seems tame to me.
She was gyrating her muff to the music, for God's sake --- why should we not assume she is trying to be hot?
This sounds like a very male reaction. I wonder if there's a woman on Earth who would watch this and think that she's trying to be sexy.
She was one of the least naked naked people you might imagine, because she projected an aura of control and confidence, rather than well, nakedness and coy vulnerability.
I agree. Well stated!
posted by grumblebee at 1:26 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
I thought it was innocent fun. The music made me smile (and I was humming it for the rest of the night), the slight-of-hand was well executed, and the facial expressions made me giggle. That was the sum-and-total of why I liked it and why I posted it. I posted it in the same spirit that someone might share a fun Onion story with a friend. I don't think it's particularly profound. I just think it's fun.
I sort of stunned by the level of the reaction. Surely most adult males see naked women all the time, either live (girlfriends/wives) or in movies.
If this performance is supposed to be sexy or provocative, then -- for me -- it's only vaguely so, like the Benny Hill Show or a "saucy seaside postcard." It's sort too quaint to be really shocking. Maybe I'm jaded by too much NYC theatre. But this seems tame to me.
She was gyrating her muff to the music, for God's sake --- why should we not assume she is trying to be hot?
This sounds like a very male reaction. I wonder if there's a woman on Earth who would watch this and think that she's trying to be sexy.
She was one of the least naked naked people you might imagine, because she projected an aura of control and confidence, rather than well, nakedness and coy vulnerability.
I agree. Well stated!
posted by grumblebee at 1:26 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
I just saw the stripping as a play on the magician's traditional "there's nothing up my sleeve" gesture. I must be shallow or something to have missed all the subtext. And there's no excuse: I went to Evergreen, for chrissake.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:26 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:26 PM on October 15, 2006
Here's the thing about 'art': if people need the subtext explaining to them, your art sucks.
I doubt many people actually thought it was supposed to be sexy. I, at least, thought it was supposed to be a magic trick, one that happened to involve someone getting naked. If people are going to do naked magic tricks, male or female, I'd prefer if they weren't ugly. That is all.
posted by reklaw at 1:31 PM on October 15, 2006
I doubt many people actually thought it was supposed to be sexy. I, at least, thought it was supposed to be a magic trick, one that happened to involve someone getting naked. If people are going to do naked magic tricks, male or female, I'd prefer if they weren't ugly. That is all.
posted by reklaw at 1:31 PM on October 15, 2006
I liked it, I love women in business atire and watching her strip down and enjoying the over the top facial expressions was a good use of a sunday afternoon.
posted by Iron Rat at 1:37 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by Iron Rat at 1:37 PM on October 15, 2006
Someone upthread pointed out that my NSFW was a spoiler. I hadn't thought about it, but in retrospect, I agree. Very sorry about that.
My main concern was that people who have posted this sort of thing before -- without the NSFW disclaimer -- have been chastised. As someone who often browses the web at work, I greatly appreciate NSFW warnings.
But I do see how a post like this -- coming from an "anti-spoiler" person -- seems a bit hypocritical.
posted by grumblebee at 1:45 PM on October 15, 2006
My main concern was that people who have posted this sort of thing before -- without the NSFW disclaimer -- have been chastised. As someone who often browses the web at work, I greatly appreciate NSFW warnings.
But I do see how a post like this -- coming from an "anti-spoiler" person -- seems a bit hypocritical.
posted by grumblebee at 1:45 PM on October 15, 2006
As someone who often browses the web at work, I greatly appreciate NSFW warnings.
As someone who was seeking to blow my load all over my monitor and keyboard, I greatly resent the false advertising implicit in the NSFW warning.
posted by jayder at 2:05 PM on October 15, 2006
As someone who was seeking to blow my load all over my monitor and keyboard, I greatly resent the false advertising implicit in the NSFW warning.
posted by jayder at 2:05 PM on October 15, 2006
"...But I do see how a post like this -- coming from an "anti-spoiler" person -- seems a bit hypocritical."
posted by grumblebee at 4:45 PM EST on October 15
OK, grumblebee, I take you at your word on this.
But I hope making this your very first post to The Blue after that MeCha trainwreck was just too damn perfectly ironic not to be Chapter Two of the best long troll I've seen in a long time. I'm even kinda sorry that wasn't what you had in mind, 'cause it would have been pricelessly underappreciated.
All's forgiven and forgotten, as far as I'm concerned.
posted by paulsc at 2:11 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 4:45 PM EST on October 15
OK, grumblebee, I take you at your word on this.
But I hope making this your very first post to The Blue after that MeCha trainwreck was just too damn perfectly ironic not to be Chapter Two of the best long troll I've seen in a long time. I'm even kinda sorry that wasn't what you had in mind, 'cause it would have been pricelessly underappreciated.
All's forgiven and forgotten, as far as I'm concerned.
posted by paulsc at 2:11 PM on October 15, 2006
I laughed my ass off. This wasn't a sexy performance, wasn't meant to be sexy. It was meant to be challenging and amusing.
She was deliberate in daring the audience to dare her to go the next step. She was deliberate in performing a couple traditional cabaret sexy moves (hip-bump! big wink!) and hamming those up. She dared us to laugh with her: she was fully aware how ridiculous this joke is, and how serious her audience (and society) normally treats being naked. And then she gets the last laugh on us, by doing the unexpected.
It's funny and it's unconventional and it's 'dangerous' — which makes it a good act, especially for Just For Laughs. Probably not a festival some of you would enjoy. It's pretty raunchy.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
She was deliberate in daring the audience to dare her to go the next step. She was deliberate in performing a couple traditional cabaret sexy moves (hip-bump! big wink!) and hamming those up. She dared us to laugh with her: she was fully aware how ridiculous this joke is, and how serious her audience (and society) normally treats being naked. And then she gets the last laugh on us, by doing the unexpected.
It's funny and it's unconventional and it's 'dangerous' — which makes it a good act, especially for Just For Laughs. Probably not a festival some of you would enjoy. It's pretty raunchy.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:15 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
By the way, does anyone know what that music was? I feel like that's a dumb question -- like I should know. I've heard it before (it's sort of standard burlesque music), but I don't know to origin.
posted by grumblebee at 2:25 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 2:25 PM on October 15, 2006
And it surprises me that so many people here notice the clowning, the fact that she doesn't have a traditional stripper body, and the squik factor of miming the hanky out of the vagina, and fail to figure it out.
I've never heard of her, didn't read the past thread about her. All I knew was that a magician was stripping and pulling hankies out of lots of places.
I thought she was trying to be a sexy, funny magician and just wasn't very good at the sexy part. Lots of entertainers aren't actually very good at what they do, or at least aren't good at every aspect of what they do. This seemed a more reasonable hypothesis, given the small amount of information I had, than thinking that she must be doing a masterful job of some sort of avante-garde performance art that counterpoints the surrealism of the underlying metaphor.
(And why is it that anyone assumes in this age that any appearance of a naked person on stage must be erotic?)
Yes. Why indeed would someone think that a stripper, stripping to stripping music, was trying to be sexy? Only a fool would think that a stripper stripping to stripping music was trying to be sexy. Everyone knows that when someone wants to be sexy, they clothe themselves in thick robes onstage while Carmina Burana played on kazoos blares in the background. Stripping to stripping music? That would be stupid.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:35 PM on October 15, 2006
I've never heard of her, didn't read the past thread about her. All I knew was that a magician was stripping and pulling hankies out of lots of places.
I thought she was trying to be a sexy, funny magician and just wasn't very good at the sexy part. Lots of entertainers aren't actually very good at what they do, or at least aren't good at every aspect of what they do. This seemed a more reasonable hypothesis, given the small amount of information I had, than thinking that she must be doing a masterful job of some sort of avante-garde performance art that counterpoints the surrealism of the underlying metaphor.
(And why is it that anyone assumes in this age that any appearance of a naked person on stage must be erotic?)
Yes. Why indeed would someone think that a stripper, stripping to stripping music, was trying to be sexy? Only a fool would think that a stripper stripping to stripping music was trying to be sexy. Everyone knows that when someone wants to be sexy, they clothe themselves in thick robes onstage while Carmina Burana played on kazoos blares in the background. Stripping to stripping music? That would be stupid.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:35 PM on October 15, 2006
Those of you who find sexism or a frat-house mentality in the responses haven't been effective in articulating the basis for the more elevated response you seem to desire.
Why is this my obligation? I read some truly mean-spirited, small-minded commentary, and I called it out. Why am I obliged to "articlute the basis for" other forms of commentary?
posted by argybarg at 2:39 PM on October 15, 2006
Why is this my obligation? I read some truly mean-spirited, small-minded commentary, and I called it out. Why am I obliged to "articlute the basis for" other forms of commentary?
posted by argybarg at 2:39 PM on October 15, 2006
It's not "sexy" because it's not intended to be "sexy" it's meant to be funny.
conventionally attractive! lol... what have you been fucking recently? Trash cans? A large bag of cat anuses? Old nappies? Must be a fantasitic experience living in your world jaydar. A world where that freakaziod is conventionally attractive. ---econous
I mean, the woman has no hips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but she's not what most heterosexual males consider well proportioned, if the heterosexual males I know are anything to go by. ---languagehat
You two are idiots yeesh. I'd hit it six different ways.
The weird dynamic, jayder, is because she's acting unashamed -- showing off her less-than-ideal body, in fact, which is the worst sin. We can be gallant and enlightened about slightly overweight or odd-shaped women as long as they're embarassed. But let them actually like their big noses and square hips?
What's even more bizarre is that her body is perfectly fine. People are criticizing her for things she has no control over, and that don't even make any sense anyway "hips to square!?" The only thing I can conclude is that the people criticizing her have never seen a woman naked in a non-pornographic setting. Or even much porn. Since she's not wearing a sultry expression it's suddenly grotesque. These people have serious complexes about the human body.
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
Actually out of her fake thumb, and it looked more like it was coming out of her ass to me. Not to get overly technical.
She was one of the least naked naked people you might imagine, because she projected an aura of control and confidence, rather than well, nakedness and coy vulnerability. Strippers try to give their customers an illusion of power-- she played on that by overstatement and caricature, thereby making her seem very "unsexy." -- Maias
Exactly how I felt, you really nailed it. And I should say that I personally found it quite "sexy." Not in an "OMG w00d" way but in a "she seems pretty cool" sort of way.
None of these people defending Martinez or maligning other people for misogyny have provided any explanation of precisely what the importance or value of her act is
What are you saying, that if an artwork is not sufficiently profound or "important" enough, then the artist has no expectation of not being insulted for their physical appearance? I thought it was funny. Regardless of the "social statement" made, it was still entertaining, and to claim that she is somehow "ugly" is to deny reality. I doubt any guy posting in this thread would seriously kick her out of bed, come on.
Here's the thing about 'art': if people need the subtext explaining to them, your art sucks.
That may be true, but I didn't need to have the sociological implications of the act explained to me to enjoy it, I just enjoyed it. The people who didn't enjoy it have sex issues they need to work out.
posted by delmoi at 2:42 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
conventionally attractive! lol... what have you been fucking recently? Trash cans? A large bag of cat anuses? Old nappies? Must be a fantasitic experience living in your world jaydar. A world where that freakaziod is conventionally attractive. ---econous
I mean, the woman has no hips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but she's not what most heterosexual males consider well proportioned, if the heterosexual males I know are anything to go by. ---languagehat
You two are idiots yeesh. I'd hit it six different ways.
The weird dynamic, jayder, is because she's acting unashamed -- showing off her less-than-ideal body, in fact, which is the worst sin. We can be gallant and enlightened about slightly overweight or odd-shaped women as long as they're embarassed. But let them actually like their big noses and square hips?
What's even more bizarre is that her body is perfectly fine. People are criticizing her for things she has no control over, and that don't even make any sense anyway "hips to square!?" The only thing I can conclude is that the people criticizing her have never seen a woman naked in a non-pornographic setting. Or even much porn. Since she's not wearing a sultry expression it's suddenly grotesque. These people have serious complexes about the human body.
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
Actually out of her fake thumb, and it looked more like it was coming out of her ass to me. Not to get overly technical.
She was one of the least naked naked people you might imagine, because she projected an aura of control and confidence, rather than well, nakedness and coy vulnerability. Strippers try to give their customers an illusion of power-- she played on that by overstatement and caricature, thereby making her seem very "unsexy." -- Maias
Exactly how I felt, you really nailed it. And I should say that I personally found it quite "sexy." Not in an "OMG w00d" way but in a "she seems pretty cool" sort of way.
None of these people defending Martinez or maligning other people for misogyny have provided any explanation of precisely what the importance or value of her act is
What are you saying, that if an artwork is not sufficiently profound or "important" enough, then the artist has no expectation of not being insulted for their physical appearance? I thought it was funny. Regardless of the "social statement" made, it was still entertaining, and to claim that she is somehow "ugly" is to deny reality. I doubt any guy posting in this thread would seriously kick her out of bed, come on.
Here's the thing about 'art': if people need the subtext explaining to them, your art sucks.
That may be true, but I didn't need to have the sociological implications of the act explained to me to enjoy it, I just enjoyed it. The people who didn't enjoy it have sex issues they need to work out.
posted by delmoi at 2:42 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Yes. Why indeed would someone think that a stripper, stripping to stripping music, was trying to be sexy?
So much of this, I think, is about one's frame of reference. There's no way I can think of that as "sexy music" or "stripping music." To me, it's the Simpson's parody of sexy stripper music. So as soon as I heard it, I (a) was pretty sure she was going to strip, and (b) felt it was a parody. But I totally understand -- now that a few of you have pointed it out to me -- how someone could get a different impression.
I'll come out of the closet and admit to having seen the odd stripper or two in my time, and I've never seen one dance to music like that (except in parodies). If I were to go to a strip club, expecting a turn-on, and they started playing that music, I'd ask for my money back. But as a comic performance, I think it's fun.
posted by grumblebee at 2:42 PM on October 15, 2006
So much of this, I think, is about one's frame of reference. There's no way I can think of that as "sexy music" or "stripping music." To me, it's the Simpson's parody of sexy stripper music. So as soon as I heard it, I (a) was pretty sure she was going to strip, and (b) felt it was a parody. But I totally understand -- now that a few of you have pointed it out to me -- how someone could get a different impression.
I'll come out of the closet and admit to having seen the odd stripper or two in my time, and I've never seen one dance to music like that (except in parodies). If I were to go to a strip club, expecting a turn-on, and they started playing that music, I'd ask for my money back. But as a comic performance, I think it's fun.
posted by grumblebee at 2:42 PM on October 15, 2006
And we wonder why Quebeckers think we're uptight.
posted by randomstriker at 2:48 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by randomstriker at 2:48 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
What are you saying, that if an artwork is not sufficiently profound or "important" enough, then the artist has no expectation of not being insulted for their physical appearance? I thought it was funny. Regardless of the "social statement" made, it was still entertaining, and to claim that she is somehow "ugly" is to deny reality. I doubt any guy posting in this thread would seriously kick her out of bed, come on.
Delmoi, your statement here was in response to a remark I made. When I made that remark, I was responding to the people who very pompously asserted that the rest of us just didn't "get" the woman's act. Upthread, I asserted that she actually did have a conventionally attractive body (and, bewilderingly, I was roundly attacked for saying so) --- so you and I agree there. It does seem, however, that when you shed your clothes and start pulling stuff out of your asshole in front of hundreds of people, you are inviting a variety of colorful, and yes, sexually oriented responses. I'd say, anybody who (apparently) pulls things out of her unclothed anus during a public performance, cannot reasonably expect all the responses to be appreciative and laudatory.
posted by jayder at 3:24 PM on October 15, 2006
Delmoi, your statement here was in response to a remark I made. When I made that remark, I was responding to the people who very pompously asserted that the rest of us just didn't "get" the woman's act. Upthread, I asserted that she actually did have a conventionally attractive body (and, bewilderingly, I was roundly attacked for saying so) --- so you and I agree there. It does seem, however, that when you shed your clothes and start pulling stuff out of your asshole in front of hundreds of people, you are inviting a variety of colorful, and yes, sexually oriented responses. I'd say, anybody who (apparently) pulls things out of her unclothed anus during a public performance, cannot reasonably expect all the responses to be appreciative and laudatory.
posted by jayder at 3:24 PM on October 15, 2006
delmoi, I'm not an idiot and I didn't say nobody found her sexy. It's great that you do, and I'm sure a lot of women do; what I said was that most heterosexual males do not consider her type of body well proportioned. I stand by that statement, and I call to witness the entirety of porn images aimed at heterosexual males. And I certainly wasn't "criticizing her body"—as far as I know, I never criticize people's bodies—I was taking issue with a statement made my jayder.
It's funny and it's unconventional and it's 'dangerous'
I agree about the first two, but can anyone possibly find this sort of thing "dangerous" in 2006 (outside of the Christian States of America)?
posted by languagehat at 3:27 PM on October 15, 2006
It's funny and it's unconventional and it's 'dangerous'
I agree about the first two, but can anyone possibly find this sort of thing "dangerous" in 2006 (outside of the Christian States of America)?
posted by languagehat at 3:27 PM on October 15, 2006
delmoi:
As I said in this comment (which resulted in being asked if I was 12), I know how it's done, and it doesn't matter where it actually came from.
grumblebee:
Just so you know, I think it's a good post (despite that it is somewhat a double) and it makes for interesting discussion. Also, I don't doubt the performing ability and bravery of the performer. I see her strip tease as a parody, and seeing the audience reaction to unexpected nakedness can be funny to watch, although it's not really a new idea.
posted by The Deej at 3:37 PM on October 15, 2006
As I said in this comment (which resulted in being asked if I was 12), I know how it's done, and it doesn't matter where it actually came from.
grumblebee:
Just so you know, I think it's a good post (despite that it is somewhat a double) and it makes for interesting discussion. Also, I don't doubt the performing ability and bravery of the performer. I see her strip tease as a parody, and seeing the audience reaction to unexpected nakedness can be funny to watch, although it's not really a new idea.
posted by The Deej at 3:37 PM on October 15, 2006
You two are idiots yeesh. I'd hit it six different ways.
Yeah, I'd hit it too, delmoi. Not six different ways mind, but she seems smart, funny, presentable. Hotter with her clothes on than off, but far from unattractive. What's not to like?
PeterMcDermott whats up mate
Nothing at all, econous. I'm simply saying -- a metafilter poster wouldn't be where I'd be putting my wager in any bar fight. No personal slight intended. You could be a combination of Bruce Lee and Arnie Schwarzenegger for all I know.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:43 PM on October 15, 2006
Yeah, I'd hit it too, delmoi. Not six different ways mind, but she seems smart, funny, presentable. Hotter with her clothes on than off, but far from unattractive. What's not to like?
PeterMcDermott whats up mate
Nothing at all, econous. I'm simply saying -- a metafilter poster wouldn't be where I'd be putting my wager in any bar fight. No personal slight intended. You could be a combination of Bruce Lee and Arnie Schwarzenegger for all I know.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:43 PM on October 15, 2006
I saw this a couple of days ago and was struck by a couple of things. Here was a nude woman who didn't make me uncomfortable. It was funny and charming and I would like to meet her for coffee. (I am female, hetrosexual, 39, married, athiest).
Here, it's great to see I'm not alone in these feelings. I'm not surprised by the nay-sayers, though. This is what the media trains them to despise: a healthy nude female body and orifices that aren't on the head (omg, a vagina!). I am more disturbed by the music videos displaying simulated sex moves in the dance steps with the dancer's heads not ever in shot.
And red, someone here is disturbed that the piece of cloth is red. Red for passion, communism, happiness? No, I'm pretty sure that the horror is the potential implication of a menstrual period, evilness that that is.
I don't know if I "get" her act, just like I don't know if I get what Mondrian was saying with all his squares, but I certainly don't "get" why people are so negative about such a simple and inventive piece of entertainment.
posted by b33j at 3:45 PM on October 15, 2006
Here, it's great to see I'm not alone in these feelings. I'm not surprised by the nay-sayers, though. This is what the media trains them to despise: a healthy nude female body and orifices that aren't on the head (omg, a vagina!). I am more disturbed by the music videos displaying simulated sex moves in the dance steps with the dancer's heads not ever in shot.
And red, someone here is disturbed that the piece of cloth is red. Red for passion, communism, happiness? No, I'm pretty sure that the horror is the potential implication of a menstrual period, evilness that that is.
I don't know if I "get" her act, just like I don't know if I get what Mondrian was saying with all his squares, but I certainly don't "get" why people are so negative about such a simple and inventive piece of entertainment.
posted by b33j at 3:45 PM on October 15, 2006
Grumblebee, the music was the theme to A Shot in the Dark by Henry Mancini. It's the sequel to the Pink Panther. Interestingly enough, I answered the same question a month ago when this video showed up on Useless Junk.
posted by FYKshun at 3:53 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by FYKshun at 3:53 PM on October 15, 2006
Thanks, FYKshun!
posted by grumblebee at 3:56 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 3:56 PM on October 15, 2006
It seemed obvious to me that she was critiquing striptease in the way the made her gyrations obvious and overstated-- the opposite of flirtatious, brazen.
I disagree. I don't think she was so much critiquing striptease as harking back to that earlier tradition of Burlesque. Though she doesn't have the shape of dancers like Blaze Starr or Tempest Storm, she definitely has the attitude.
And, um. No. I wouldn't hit it at all. That was just a momentary lapse. Really. ;-)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:57 PM on October 15, 2006
I disagree. I don't think she was so much critiquing striptease as harking back to that earlier tradition of Burlesque. Though she doesn't have the shape of dancers like Blaze Starr or Tempest Storm, she definitely has the attitude.
And, um. No. I wouldn't hit it at all. That was just a momentary lapse. Really. ;-)
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:57 PM on October 15, 2006
Sleight of twat.
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
Hell, that's nothing. My girlfriend pulled a baby out of hers.
If Andy Kaufman was still alive, he would love her act.
If Andy Kaufman were still alive, he would wrestle her to the ground and make her asshole sing "Feelings."
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...THAT is why I still read the comments on these posts.
posted by davejay at 3:59 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Did you NOT notice that SHE PULLED A HANKERCHIEF OUT OF HER VAGINA???
Hell, that's nothing. My girlfriend pulled a baby out of hers.
If Andy Kaufman was still alive, he would love her act.
If Andy Kaufman were still alive, he would wrestle her to the ground and make her asshole sing "Feelings."
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...THAT is why I still read the comments on these posts.
posted by davejay at 3:59 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
b33j, I made the "red" comment. It's just part of the humor, not anything to do with saying menstruation is evil. Sheesh, not everything has anti-feminine subtext.
She is much more successful in her performing career than I ever was, so more power to her.
posted by The Deej at 4:01 PM on October 15, 2006
She is much more successful in her performing career than I ever was, so more power to her.
posted by The Deej at 4:01 PM on October 15, 2006
I'm not surprised by the nay-sayers,
Um. I'm not a nay-sayer because I have anything against healthy nude female bodies or vaginas.
I'm a bit of a nay-sayer because: if she was trying to do a sexy striptease, it didn't work, and if it was some grand parody, then it's from the same planet of performance art as handcuffing yourself to a box of Wheaties for a month, which just doesn't appeal to me.
There's nothing wrong with it or particularly about it. It's just either poorly-done or, to me anyway, lame.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:03 PM on October 15, 2006
Um. I'm not a nay-sayer because I have anything against healthy nude female bodies or vaginas.
I'm a bit of a nay-sayer because: if she was trying to do a sexy striptease, it didn't work, and if it was some grand parody, then it's from the same planet of performance art as handcuffing yourself to a box of Wheaties for a month, which just doesn't appeal to me.
There's nothing wrong with it or particularly about it. It's just either poorly-done or, to me anyway, lame.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:03 PM on October 15, 2006
"And then she gets the last laugh on us, by doing the unexpected."
Unexpected? Hell no. I was expecting that for some time. In fact, that was part of the cringe-inducing humour: knowing that that was the inevitable punchline, but not quite believing she would really go that far.
The audience shots show this. Lots of "she isn't! *gasp* she is! oh noes!"
Count me among the people who saw this as intentionally unsexy from the get-go. I found it pretty damned funny, too. I'm sure that live, in an audience, I would have been hysterical.
On second thoughts, not intentionally unsexy. Intentionally unfeminine. I've seen stripping like that: from male rugby-players who've had too much to drink. The confident disrobing of alphas who don't give a shit. Woof!
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:05 PM on October 15, 2006
Unexpected? Hell no. I was expecting that for some time. In fact, that was part of the cringe-inducing humour: knowing that that was the inevitable punchline, but not quite believing she would really go that far.
The audience shots show this. Lots of "she isn't! *gasp* she is! oh noes!"
Count me among the people who saw this as intentionally unsexy from the get-go. I found it pretty damned funny, too. I'm sure that live, in an audience, I would have been hysterical.
On second thoughts, not intentionally unsexy. Intentionally unfeminine. I've seen stripping like that: from male rugby-players who've had too much to drink. The confident disrobing of alphas who don't give a shit. Woof!
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:05 PM on October 15, 2006
By the way, does anyone know what that music was? I feel like that's a dumb question -- like I should know. I've heard it before (it's sort of standard burlesque music), but I don't know to origin.
It's "A Shot in the Dark" by Henry Mancini. You may have heard it in the second Pink Panther movie of the same title.
posted by JDC8 at 4:10 PM on October 15, 2006
It's "A Shot in the Dark" by Henry Mancini. You may have heard it in the second Pink Panther movie of the same title.
posted by JDC8 at 4:10 PM on October 15, 2006
If Andy Kaufman were still alive...
...he would be scratching and clawing at the lid of his coffin.
Ps. This thread is a perfect example of how people waaay over think shit. Something no one will ever accuse me of... er ... HEEEY wait I just insulted myself!
posted by tkchrist at 4:27 PM on October 15, 2006
...he would be scratching and clawing at the lid of his coffin.
Ps. This thread is a perfect example of how people waaay over think shit. Something no one will ever accuse me of... er ... HEEEY wait I just insulted myself!
posted by tkchrist at 4:27 PM on October 15, 2006
The performer is hot, and not just because she has an attractive body. It's how confident and comfortable with yourself you have to be to pull this off. Women who are comfortable with their bodies = very sexy.
This discussion of bodies heterosexual males like me supposedly don't like is very similar to the relatively recent supposed aversion to pubic hair: Go into any chat room where it might come up and you'll find "men" saying "OMG gross no one likes that!!!" about the fact that women have hair anyplace other than their head. I put it down to the "make her look like a eight-year-old with boobs" world of porn, which is possibly all these dudes see or ever have seen. (Not without precedent--see the interview under "episode 3" for a mildly amusing anecdote from ye olde times.)
So how much is this worth at the art bank?
posted by maxwelton at 4:28 PM on October 15, 2006
This discussion of bodies heterosexual males like me supposedly don't like is very similar to the relatively recent supposed aversion to pubic hair: Go into any chat room where it might come up and you'll find "men" saying "OMG gross no one likes that!!!" about the fact that women have hair anyplace other than their head. I put it down to the "make her look like a eight-year-old with boobs" world of porn, which is possibly all these dudes see or ever have seen. (Not without precedent--see the interview under "episode 3" for a mildly amusing anecdote from ye olde times.)
So how much is this worth at the art bank?
posted by maxwelton at 4:28 PM on October 15, 2006
Going rate's about $0.02, I believe.
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:35 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 4:35 PM on October 15, 2006
I actually liked the act. Initially I thought, what is this? But then I got on the same thought track dhartung describes above. Her act is not about "magic". C'mon, even I could figure out what the "trick" was. It is about provocation. Daring to put the female naked body in front of a middle aged audience. Her expressions, admittedly not pretty, were meant to be goading and annoying. And she managed exactly to not gross me out, nor even make me feel uncomfortable (hetero-female here, fwiw). I personally find her body attractive, I thought those heels look just perfect. Her hips? Fine. A "more female" body (gosh! the expressions you make me use) would probably make a different suggestion (or so I imagine).
posted by carmina at 4:37 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by carmina at 4:37 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Oh come on. Being naked isn't even remotely daring. People get naked all the time.
Apparently this is the kind of art where you take a shit on the floor and a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals turn up to say "Ah, I see what you've done there -- the shit us is, society, the world... we are the shit". So damn stupid.
posted by reklaw at 5:00 PM on October 15, 2006
Apparently this is the kind of art where you take a shit on the floor and a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals turn up to say "Ah, I see what you've done there -- the shit us is, society, the world... we are the shit". So damn stupid.
posted by reklaw at 5:00 PM on October 15, 2006
I am sorry for offending your honest-conventionalism but art is supposed to make us think beyond the obvious.
posted by carmina at 5:10 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by carmina at 5:10 PM on October 15, 2006
Delmoi, your statement here was in response to a remark I made. When I made that remark, I was responding to the people who very pompously asserted that the rest of us just didn't "get" the woman's act. Upthread, I asserted that she actually did have a conventionally attractive body...so you and I agree there.
Ah sorry, this happens to me all the time, if a bunch of people seem to be on a 'side' then people assume you agree with everyone on the same 'side'. I did notice that you were the one who didn't think she was attractive, but I mistook your comment as being a defense of the people who found her unsexy. So I apologize, and that does annoy the hell out of me when it happens to me :P
It does seem, however, that when you shed your clothes and start pulling stuff out of your asshole in front of hundreds of people, you are inviting a variety of colorful, and yes, sexually oriented responses. I'd say, anybody who (apparently) pulls things out of her unclothed anus during a public performance, cannot reasonably expect all the responses to be appreciative and laudatory.
Hmm, I suppose that's reasonable. Although I have to say I find the idea of pulling things out of an asshole on stage hilarious (especially if it's an attractive woman's ass). But you're right, if you don't appreciate the "artwork" on aesthetic level, that's fine.
What amazed me was the attacks on the woman's looks, which I found absurd.
delmoi, I'm not an idiot and I didn't say nobody found her sexy. It's great that you do, and I'm sure a lot of women do; what I said was that most heterosexual males do not consider her type of body well proportioned.
?!?!?!?!?!? Are you accusing me of being a woman! Given the number of times I've been called a misogynist around here that's pretty funny. I can assure you I am definitely a heterosexual man, and I can assure you the vast majority of hetrosexual men would sleep with that woman. They might not consider her "hot" but they wouldn't kick her out of bed, that's my point. (btw, I know you're not an idiot, and I was actually suprised to see you make that comment, though)
And yeah I see what you're saying about her not being "well proportioned" she definitely has a "built" "female basketball player", but look. If you photographed her from the right angles and with the right 'come hither' look 99% of men would think she was 'hot'. The reason she didn't seem sexy there because she wasn't trying to be sexy.
It's like reading a fark thread where guys are talking about how some celebrity is 'not hot' when in fact they would (and probably do) sleep with women who didn't even approach the celebrity. It's just absurd, and I find this woman to be at least as attractive as the average celebrity.
I mean unless you're a millionaire banging hotties 24/7, I just don't think many people would have standards that exclude women who look like her, or they'd never be getting any.
Yes. Why indeed would someone think that a stripper, stripping to stripping music, was trying to be sexy?
Well why would someone rapping about how awesome they are not be trying to impress people with how awesome of a hip-hopper they are?
I put it down to the "make her look like a eight-year-old with boobs" world of porn, which is possibly all these dudes see or ever have seen.
Hmm, you know if I waited until I was 18 to start looking at porn I probably would never have seen pubes as a standard thing in normal pornography, rather then some "fetish".
posted by delmoi at 5:18 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Ah sorry, this happens to me all the time, if a bunch of people seem to be on a 'side' then people assume you agree with everyone on the same 'side'. I did notice that you were the one who didn't think she was attractive, but I mistook your comment as being a defense of the people who found her unsexy. So I apologize, and that does annoy the hell out of me when it happens to me :P
It does seem, however, that when you shed your clothes and start pulling stuff out of your asshole in front of hundreds of people, you are inviting a variety of colorful, and yes, sexually oriented responses. I'd say, anybody who (apparently) pulls things out of her unclothed anus during a public performance, cannot reasonably expect all the responses to be appreciative and laudatory.
Hmm, I suppose that's reasonable. Although I have to say I find the idea of pulling things out of an asshole on stage hilarious (especially if it's an attractive woman's ass). But you're right, if you don't appreciate the "artwork" on aesthetic level, that's fine.
What amazed me was the attacks on the woman's looks, which I found absurd.
delmoi, I'm not an idiot and I didn't say nobody found her sexy. It's great that you do, and I'm sure a lot of women do; what I said was that most heterosexual males do not consider her type of body well proportioned.
?!?!?!?!?!? Are you accusing me of being a woman! Given the number of times I've been called a misogynist around here that's pretty funny. I can assure you I am definitely a heterosexual man, and I can assure you the vast majority of hetrosexual men would sleep with that woman. They might not consider her "hot" but they wouldn't kick her out of bed, that's my point. (btw, I know you're not an idiot, and I was actually suprised to see you make that comment, though)
And yeah I see what you're saying about her not being "well proportioned" she definitely has a "built" "female basketball player", but look. If you photographed her from the right angles and with the right 'come hither' look 99% of men would think she was 'hot'. The reason she didn't seem sexy there because she wasn't trying to be sexy.
It's like reading a fark thread where guys are talking about how some celebrity is 'not hot' when in fact they would (and probably do) sleep with women who didn't even approach the celebrity. It's just absurd, and I find this woman to be at least as attractive as the average celebrity.
I mean unless you're a millionaire banging hotties 24/7, I just don't think many people would have standards that exclude women who look like her, or they'd never be getting any.
Yes. Why indeed would someone think that a stripper, stripping to stripping music, was trying to be sexy?
Well why would someone rapping about how awesome they are not be trying to impress people with how awesome of a hip-hopper they are?
I put it down to the "make her look like a eight-year-old with boobs" world of porn, which is possibly all these dudes see or ever have seen.
Hmm, you know if I waited until I was 18 to start looking at porn I probably would never have seen pubes as a standard thing in normal pornography, rather then some "fetish".
posted by delmoi at 5:18 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
*double dog dares reklaw to walk around naked at next MeFi meetup*
posted by Stauf at 5:19 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by Stauf at 5:19 PM on October 15, 2006
Oh come on. Being naked isn't even remotely daring. People get naked all the time.
Not that often on stage, they don't. Mainly due to licensing restrictions (in the UK, at least).
As I remember, when I disrobed & jumped into the bath onstage at the Oxford Playhouse - in a performance of Lark Rise to Candleford - the director was afraid we would be shut down by the Police, unless we forewarned the potential audience of the nudity involved.
We put up handmade posters - no-one complained.
Having said that - I don't know anyone else who's done it. A (very small) claim to fame.
That was in 1992. There's not been a lot of call for me to repeat that feat lately...
posted by dash_slot- at 5:25 PM on October 15, 2006
Not that often on stage, they don't. Mainly due to licensing restrictions (in the UK, at least).
As I remember, when I disrobed & jumped into the bath onstage at the Oxford Playhouse - in a performance of Lark Rise to Candleford - the director was afraid we would be shut down by the Police, unless we forewarned the potential audience of the nudity involved.
We put up handmade posters - no-one complained.
Having said that - I don't know anyone else who's done it. A (very small) claim to fame.
That was in 1992. There's not been a lot of call for me to repeat that feat lately...
posted by dash_slot- at 5:25 PM on October 15, 2006
Oh come on. Being naked isn't even remotely daring. People get naked all the time.
I agree -- as-long-as we're talking about being naked in front of liberal, free-thinking people. I sometimes forget this, and then I'm reminded -- by events like the Janet Jackson thing -- that I live in a pretty sheltered world.
Apparently this is the kind of art where you take a shit on the floor and a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals...
I doubt many people think of it this way. I certainly don't, and the audience in the video simply seemed to be having fun. I'm not a fan of the word "art" and I hate it when artists attempt to shock. Yet I really enjoyed the performance. If I'd been shocked -- or felt that someone was trying to shock me -- I wouldn't have enjoyed it. Maybe it's BECAUSE I live in such a sheltered world, where I've seen so much nudity that it's almost meaningless to me, but I found this to be entertainment on the level of Spike Jones, "Laugh In" or Looney Tunes. It was just silly fun.
art is supposed to make us think beyond the obvious
According to whom? There are rules about what art is supposed to do? What happens if you violate them? Do you mean that YOU like art best when it makes YOU think beyond the obvious?
I'm not saying that's silly. I happen to enjoy art that stretches me (though I don't consider being shocked an interesting stretch), but I don't see how you or I can say what art is SUPPOSED to do to anyone else.
posted by grumblebee at 5:28 PM on October 15, 2006
I agree -- as-long-as we're talking about being naked in front of liberal, free-thinking people. I sometimes forget this, and then I'm reminded -- by events like the Janet Jackson thing -- that I live in a pretty sheltered world.
Apparently this is the kind of art where you take a shit on the floor and a bunch of pseudo-intellectuals...
I doubt many people think of it this way. I certainly don't, and the audience in the video simply seemed to be having fun. I'm not a fan of the word "art" and I hate it when artists attempt to shock. Yet I really enjoyed the performance. If I'd been shocked -- or felt that someone was trying to shock me -- I wouldn't have enjoyed it. Maybe it's BECAUSE I live in such a sheltered world, where I've seen so much nudity that it's almost meaningless to me, but I found this to be entertainment on the level of Spike Jones, "Laugh In" or Looney Tunes. It was just silly fun.
art is supposed to make us think beyond the obvious
According to whom? There are rules about what art is supposed to do? What happens if you violate them? Do you mean that YOU like art best when it makes YOU think beyond the obvious?
I'm not saying that's silly. I happen to enjoy art that stretches me (though I don't consider being shocked an interesting stretch), but I don't see how you or I can say what art is SUPPOSED to do to anyone else.
posted by grumblebee at 5:28 PM on October 15, 2006
double dog dares reklaw to walk around naked at next MeFi meetup
And then pull something other than a sarky comment out of his asshole...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:29 PM on October 15, 2006
And then pull something other than a sarky comment out of his asshole...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 5:29 PM on October 15, 2006
*pulls stick out of PeterMcDermott's asshole*
*winks*
*muff bump*
posted by Stauf at 5:33 PM on October 15, 2006
*winks*
*muff bump*
posted by Stauf at 5:33 PM on October 15, 2006
Unexpected? Hell no. I was expecting that for some time. In fact, that was part of the cringe-inducing humour: knowing that that was the inevitable punchline, but not quite believing she would really go that far.
I wonder if the difference lies in the number of times we've seen the legendary "ping pong ball act"...
If Andy Kaufman were still alive... he would be scratching and clawing at the lid of his coffin.
I hurt myself laughing at the image that suddenly leapt to mind. Curse you!
posted by five fresh fish at 5:34 PM on October 15, 2006
I wonder if the difference lies in the number of times we've seen the legendary "ping pong ball act"...
If Andy Kaufman were still alive... he would be scratching and clawing at the lid of his coffin.
I hurt myself laughing at the image that suddenly leapt to mind. Curse you!
posted by five fresh fish at 5:34 PM on October 15, 2006
It's like reading a fark thread where guys are talking about how some celebrity is 'not hot' when in fact they would (and probably do) sleep with women who didn't even approach the celebrity.
I'm not terribly comfortable with "frat guy" talk about women, but I don't necessarily see this as a contradiction. Many men will accept almost any offer of sex. That doesn't mean they would classify their bedmate as "hot." (Though I hope they'd be gentlemen enough to keep this to themselves.)
Also, I don't find Julia Roberts hot -- but would I kick her out of bed? Not necessarily -- if I liked her or if I was feeling really horny. People have sex with each other for all sorts of reasons that don't always coincide with "hot or not" assessments.
I also don't think most can completely divorce the person from his/her actions, clothes, celebrity status or makeup. I know we're supposed to be ashamed of this -- "you wouldn't like him if he wasn't rich and famous" -- but I forget why.
posted by grumblebee at 5:37 PM on October 15, 2006
I'm not terribly comfortable with "frat guy" talk about women, but I don't necessarily see this as a contradiction. Many men will accept almost any offer of sex. That doesn't mean they would classify their bedmate as "hot." (Though I hope they'd be gentlemen enough to keep this to themselves.)
Also, I don't find Julia Roberts hot -- but would I kick her out of bed? Not necessarily -- if I liked her or if I was feeling really horny. People have sex with each other for all sorts of reasons that don't always coincide with "hot or not" assessments.
I also don't think most can completely divorce the person from his/her actions, clothes, celebrity status or makeup. I know we're supposed to be ashamed of this -- "you wouldn't like him if he wasn't rich and famous" -- but I forget why.
posted by grumblebee at 5:37 PM on October 15, 2006
Wait... I just realized something, you can put nudity on google video?
posted by delmoi at 5:43 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by delmoi at 5:43 PM on October 15, 2006
Wait... I just realized something, you can put nudity on google video?
Same thought occurred to me. It's been posted and removed before, so my guess is it's a rule violation that hasn't been noticed yet.
posted by grumblebee at 5:45 PM on October 15, 2006
Same thought occurred to me. It's been posted and removed before, so my guess is it's a rule violation that hasn't been noticed yet.
posted by grumblebee at 5:45 PM on October 15, 2006
Oh come on. Being naked isn't even remotely daring. People get naked all the time.
I'm obviously going to the wrong comedy clubs.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:47 PM on October 15, 2006
I'm obviously going to the wrong comedy clubs.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:47 PM on October 15, 2006
Aw, crap...get over it folks... It was fun, it was funny, and, hell, it was naked...
Thanks for the link... made us smile....
posted by HuronBob at 5:58 PM on October 15, 2006
Thanks for the link... made us smile....
posted by HuronBob at 5:58 PM on October 15, 2006
Are you accusing me of being a woman!
Woops, the famous "you can't hear intonation on the internet" glitch strikes again! Here, let's try it with added oomph:
It's great that you do, and I'm sure a lot of women do
There's an implied "as well" at the end, but I can see where it didn't read the way I intended it. Oh well, I'm glad you got a chuckle out of it.
I must say, I'm uncomfortable being in the position of possibly being lumped in with "frat-boy" comments. I think of myself as a feminist, and as I said earlier, I don't think I comment on people's bodies. I was just surprised at jayder talking as if this were a Playboy-type body, when it seemed exactly the opposite to me—which does not mean "ugly" or "unsexy." And I thought the act was funny, but not at all unpredictable; it was clear from the moment she took off her top where it was going.
posted by languagehat at 6:05 PM on October 15, 2006
Woops, the famous "you can't hear intonation on the internet" glitch strikes again! Here, let's try it with added oomph:
It's great that you do, and I'm sure a lot of women do
There's an implied "as well" at the end, but I can see where it didn't read the way I intended it. Oh well, I'm glad you got a chuckle out of it.
I must say, I'm uncomfortable being in the position of possibly being lumped in with "frat-boy" comments. I think of myself as a feminist, and as I said earlier, I don't think I comment on people's bodies. I was just surprised at jayder talking as if this were a Playboy-type body, when it seemed exactly the opposite to me—which does not mean "ugly" or "unsexy." And I thought the act was funny, but not at all unpredictable; it was clear from the moment she took off her top where it was going.
posted by languagehat at 6:05 PM on October 15, 2006
I get the sense that if I say I didn't like it, a lot of people will come to some conclusion as to why. This is interesting to me.
I liked it.
posted by parki at 6:10 PM on October 15, 2006
I liked it.
posted by parki at 6:10 PM on October 15, 2006
By some sort of drift of which I was not sensible, I may have inadvertently joined forces with the "frat boy" people without realizing it.
My intent, in my first comment, in which I marveled that a conventionally attractive woman can strip naked and yet manage not be sexy, was not to make the kind of "ewww, she's a nasty-looking piece of trash" sort of comment that econous did. Rather, it was an observation that her performance seemed to desexualize her nakedness --- an observation much better made by Maias.
And delmoi's following observation is so freakin' true. I have always been amused by this phenomenon in male conversations:
It's like reading a fark thread where guys are talking about how some celebrity is 'not hot' when in fact they would (and probably do) sleep with women who didn't even approach the celebrity. It's just absurd, and I find this woman to be at least as attractive as the average celebrity.
I mean unless you're a millionaire banging hotties 24/7, I just don't think many people would have standards that exclude women who look like her, or they'd never be getting any.
posted by jayder at 6:32 PM on October 15, 2006
My intent, in my first comment, in which I marveled that a conventionally attractive woman can strip naked and yet manage not be sexy, was not to make the kind of "ewww, she's a nasty-looking piece of trash" sort of comment that econous did. Rather, it was an observation that her performance seemed to desexualize her nakedness --- an observation much better made by Maias.
And delmoi's following observation is so freakin' true. I have always been amused by this phenomenon in male conversations:
It's like reading a fark thread where guys are talking about how some celebrity is 'not hot' when in fact they would (and probably do) sleep with women who didn't even approach the celebrity. It's just absurd, and I find this woman to be at least as attractive as the average celebrity.
I mean unless you're a millionaire banging hotties 24/7, I just don't think many people would have standards that exclude women who look like her, or they'd never be getting any.
posted by jayder at 6:32 PM on October 15, 2006
The act leaves me cold. I think it's because the point is something close to 'ZOMG! I'm a woman and I'm not ashamed to be naked without conforming to all of the stereotypes about how naked women should act!'. It would have worked better for me if it were a comedy or magic routine that happened to include nudity, instead of a routine about nudity. As is, it comes across as just rebellion. Which is boring.
(Of course, as others have pointed out, the act is presented here out of its original context, and I'm watching it in the context of a bunch of people who seem to either think 'ooo! Nakedness! Hot!' or 'ooo, it's so, you know, amazing how she can be so comfortable like that'.)
Also Maias' comment explains why strippers onstage are some of the least attractive women I've ever seen.
And this thread has reaffirmed my belief that my taste in women (as in most things) is pretty far from the norm.
posted by reventlov at 6:42 PM on October 15, 2006
(Of course, as others have pointed out, the act is presented here out of its original context, and I'm watching it in the context of a bunch of people who seem to either think 'ooo! Nakedness! Hot!' or 'ooo, it's so, you know, amazing how she can be so comfortable like that'.)
Also Maias' comment explains why strippers onstage are some of the least attractive women I've ever seen.
And this thread has reaffirmed my belief that my taste in women (as in most things) is pretty far from the norm.
posted by reventlov at 6:42 PM on October 15, 2006
As she was approaching the end of her act I kept thinking, "please tell me she is going to pull it out of her shoe."
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:05 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by MrBobaFett at 7:05 PM on October 15, 2006
The act leaves me cold. I think it's because the point is something close to...
Fair enough.
But am I the only one who liked it because she made silly faces, danced to fun music and did magic? I don't give a hoot about "the point", "the context", or what it's "about."
posted by grumblebee at 7:17 PM on October 15, 2006
Fair enough.
But am I the only one who liked it because she made silly faces, danced to fun music and did magic? I don't give a hoot about "the point", "the context", or what it's "about."
posted by grumblebee at 7:17 PM on October 15, 2006
am I the only one. No, there are at least two of us.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:23 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 7:23 PM on October 15, 2006
languagehat writes "I think of myself as a feminist, and as I said earlier, I don't think I comment on people's bodies."
Huh? languagehat, you know I appreciate your contributions, but come on. You did comment on her body.
languagehat writes "I mean, the woman has no hips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but she's not what most heterosexual males consider well proportioned, if the heterosexual males I know are anything to go by."
If that's not commenting on the subject's body then I don't know what is. And if you still disagree:
languagehat writes "I had a similar reaction to rare_g."
Allow me to quote:
rare_g writes "seriously thought she was a trannie."
All I ask is that you glance over those words again.
All picking nits and fights with the Hat aside, I would like to go on record stating that for the first time in months I am genuinely surprised at mefites' reactions - if not disappointed. Focussing the attention on the merits of her unclothed physical appearance is offtopic IMO but to be expected; calling her unattractive is, to me, downright bizarre.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:30 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Huh? languagehat, you know I appreciate your contributions, but come on. You did comment on her body.
languagehat writes "I mean, the woman has no hips. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but she's not what most heterosexual males consider well proportioned, if the heterosexual males I know are anything to go by."
If that's not commenting on the subject's body then I don't know what is. And if you still disagree:
languagehat writes "I had a similar reaction to rare_g."
Allow me to quote:
rare_g writes "seriously thought she was a trannie."
All I ask is that you glance over those words again.
All picking nits and fights with the Hat aside, I would like to go on record stating that for the first time in months I am genuinely surprised at mefites' reactions - if not disappointed. Focussing the attention on the merits of her unclothed physical appearance is offtopic IMO but to be expected; calling her unattractive is, to me, downright bizarre.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:30 PM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Oh, forgot to add: if God had wanted for us to walk around naked, surely we wouldn't have been born with clothes on?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:33 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:33 PM on October 15, 2006
But am I the only one who liked it because she made silly faces, danced to fun music and did magic? I don't give a hoot about "the point", "the context", or what it's "about."
I thought it was dull in that sense. Too over-the-top for me, not enough subtlety.
And my reaction is probably shaped in part by reading one hundred posts debating the merits of the thing. On first watch my only thought was 'um, OK'.
posted by reventlov at 8:00 PM on October 15, 2006
I thought it was dull in that sense. Too over-the-top for me, not enough subtlety.
And my reaction is probably shaped in part by reading one hundred posts debating the merits of the thing. On first watch my only thought was 'um, OK'.
posted by reventlov at 8:00 PM on October 15, 2006
The funniest thing about these sorts of discussions is that the "I'd hit it dudes" think they're doing whatever woman some chivalric service repairing the damage done by the "she's a human trash can" dudes. Dudes, she's not going to fire off a thank-you card to you either way.
This is an almost-over thread about some random piece of total ephemera so it's stupid and pointless to even say this, but hey. It's hard enough just being human, but there's an added mental weight for women in knowing that whenever you're out in public, a majority of the dudes you meet feel perfectly comfortable and justified casting you into either the fuckable or human trash pile. I'd rather not believe in that bleak charecterization of the relationship between the sexes but then so many threads, so much of life itself, gets turned into a "is-she-hot-or-not" referendum to confirm it.
If you're an unbeautiful or even unconventionally attractive woman and you want to perform or make art or otherwise be highly publically visible you need courage. I don't personally think Ursula Martinez's act is particularly profound, but her raw nerve is. That's what people are reacting strongly to -- like Maias brilliantly said -- her confidence. She is a bold person, not merely a woman inviting your gaze. So whether you want to fuck her or smack her down doesn't matter. Either way, the really magic thing about that thumb is that it's actually a middle finger, and it's pointing right at you.
posted by melissa may at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2006 [12 favorites]
This is an almost-over thread about some random piece of total ephemera so it's stupid and pointless to even say this, but hey. It's hard enough just being human, but there's an added mental weight for women in knowing that whenever you're out in public, a majority of the dudes you meet feel perfectly comfortable and justified casting you into either the fuckable or human trash pile. I'd rather not believe in that bleak charecterization of the relationship between the sexes but then so many threads, so much of life itself, gets turned into a "is-she-hot-or-not" referendum to confirm it.
If you're an unbeautiful or even unconventionally attractive woman and you want to perform or make art or otherwise be highly publically visible you need courage. I don't personally think Ursula Martinez's act is particularly profound, but her raw nerve is. That's what people are reacting strongly to -- like Maias brilliantly said -- her confidence. She is a bold person, not merely a woman inviting your gaze. So whether you want to fuck her or smack her down doesn't matter. Either way, the really magic thing about that thumb is that it's actually a middle finger, and it's pointing right at you.
posted by melissa may at 9:32 PM on October 15, 2006 [12 favorites]
wasn't the first time i saw a girl pull a red rag from her snatch... (wince)
posted by odasaku at 9:36 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by odasaku at 9:36 PM on October 15, 2006
dash_slot: That comment is worthless without pictures.
posted by Joeforking at 10:37 PM on October 15, 2006
posted by Joeforking at 10:37 PM on October 15, 2006
Sadly, Joe, there are none extant. Though I'll always have the memory of my 4 year old piping up frpm the circle at the matinee:
"That's my daddy that is!"
posted by dash_slot- at 11:40 PM on October 15, 2006
"That's my daddy that is!"
posted by dash_slot- at 11:40 PM on October 15, 2006
a majority of the dudes you meet feel perfectly comfortable and justified casting you into either the fuckable or human trash pile
Not a majority, Melissa May, but *all* the dudes. And a fairly large proportion of the dudettes as well.
The only difference is between those who'll acknowledge it and those who'll keep it to themselves.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:14 AM on October 16, 2006
Not a majority, Melissa May, but *all* the dudes. And a fairly large proportion of the dudettes as well.
The only difference is between those who'll acknowledge it and those who'll keep it to themselves.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 12:14 AM on October 16, 2006
(I am female, hetrosexual, 39, married, athiest).
I'm sorry, but your membership in the atheist club has been revoked pending your learning the correct spelling of "atheist".
I swear, I should make a law (coin a law?) like Godwin's, that states that as a thread progresses, the probability of someone misspelling "atheist" approaches one. Of course this is worse when a self-avowed atheist does it.
See, I thought of this particular law regarding religion threads - I didn't consider that it should also apply to threads about transgressive magic acts. Live and learn.
posted by beth at 12:35 AM on October 16, 2006
I'm sorry, but your membership in the atheist club has been revoked pending your learning the correct spelling of "atheist".
I swear, I should make a law (coin a law?) like Godwin's, that states that as a thread progresses, the probability of someone misspelling "atheist" approaches one. Of course this is worse when a self-avowed atheist does it.
See, I thought of this particular law regarding religion threads - I didn't consider that it should also apply to threads about transgressive magic acts. Live and learn.
posted by beth at 12:35 AM on October 16, 2006
They probably just want you to know they're athier than everybody else.
After reading the thread (and intermittent reports in newspapers about her various performances) I watched the clip and was agreeably surprised. I particularly enjoyed the bit about half-way through, where there was a wink that wasn't a mechanical twitch but a gesture of complicity between the performer and those members of the audience who had worked out the inexorable progress of the act and what it was leading to.
The "I'd hit it / Ugly as Sin" commenters? Broadly I'd say that they didn't see the joke, because the joke was on them.
posted by Grangousier at 1:58 AM on October 16, 2006
After reading the thread (and intermittent reports in newspapers about her various performances) I watched the clip and was agreeably surprised. I particularly enjoyed the bit about half-way through, where there was a wink that wasn't a mechanical twitch but a gesture of complicity between the performer and those members of the audience who had worked out the inexorable progress of the act and what it was leading to.
The "I'd hit it / Ugly as Sin" commenters? Broadly I'd say that they didn't see the joke, because the joke was on them.
posted by Grangousier at 1:58 AM on October 16, 2006
Just burst my truss laughing.
Charming and subversive lite.
More applause here too for maias' comments. Specifically: "It seemed obvious to me that she was critiquing striptease in the way the made her gyrations obvious and overstated-- the opposite of flirtatious, brazen."
When Ursula did the forward pelvic thrust for the third time - finally completely naked - it was an essay on the empty language of the stripper's come-on in three witty seconds!
Terrific post (but some of the bloke-ish ejaculations here - jeesh.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 4:59 AM on October 16, 2006
Charming and subversive lite.
More applause here too for maias' comments. Specifically: "It seemed obvious to me that she was critiquing striptease in the way the made her gyrations obvious and overstated-- the opposite of flirtatious, brazen."
When Ursula did the forward pelvic thrust for the third time - finally completely naked - it was an essay on the empty language of the stripper's come-on in three witty seconds!
Terrific post (but some of the bloke-ish ejaculations here - jeesh.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 4:59 AM on October 16, 2006
a majority of the dudes you meet feel perfectly comfortable and justified casting you into either the fuckable or human trash pile
Not a majority, Melissa May, but *all* the dudes. And a fairly large proportion of the dudettes as well.
The only difference is between those who'll acknowledge it and those who'll keep it to themselves.
Okay, you're playing the dirty trick of using a non-falsifiable argument: if I admit it, I'm a cad, if I don't admit it, I'm a lying cad. And the amazing this is that your argument about ALL men is based on something that goes on inside their heads -- something you couldn't possible know without having psychic powers.
Unless you're saying something really mundane. If you're saying, "we either want to have sex with a woman or we don't." That's true.
But I absolutely deny that I walk down the street thinking, "sexy, sexy, trash, sexy, trash, trash, trash, sexy..." Sure, I see pretty girls and wish I could have sex with them. But I DON'T feel like "trashing" the other girls. If I'm feeling really horny, I may just not notice the other girls. If I'm not, I may notice them in some other way (cool shoes, looks upset...).
I -- and at least SOME other guys, I'm sure -- are more complex. I sometimes don't feel like sex, so no matter how "sexy" a woman is, I'm not interested. Many times in my life, I've been majorly turned on by a woman who didn't strike me as sexy at first -- and I'm aware of that -- so that's one of the things that stops me from "rating at first sight." I KNOW -- from experience -- that I can be turned on by pretty much any woman, if I click with her and if she's interested. So why would I consign one to the trash? I can see a woman, think she's pretty, and be left utterly cold by her. To some extent -- for me -- sexy is as sexy does.
I will admit that though I was never the cartoon character that you've created, I was more that way in my teens and twenties. Maybe you meant "all YOUNG men." Even then, I think you're overstating. And I know that there are older men who ARE as you've described. But not me. I can now look back on four decades during which most of my friends have been women. Some were more attractive than others. None have wound up in the trash.
(I am NOT claiming that men -- and woman -- don't have frequent lecherous thoughts. Most of them do. But that's different from what you're saying. And even then, "all doesn't make sense. People have varying levels of libido. Some people -- believe it or not -- have none.)
posted by grumblebee at 5:09 AM on October 16, 2006
Not a majority, Melissa May, but *all* the dudes. And a fairly large proportion of the dudettes as well.
The only difference is between those who'll acknowledge it and those who'll keep it to themselves.
Okay, you're playing the dirty trick of using a non-falsifiable argument: if I admit it, I'm a cad, if I don't admit it, I'm a lying cad. And the amazing this is that your argument about ALL men is based on something that goes on inside their heads -- something you couldn't possible know without having psychic powers.
Unless you're saying something really mundane. If you're saying, "we either want to have sex with a woman or we don't." That's true.
But I absolutely deny that I walk down the street thinking, "sexy, sexy, trash, sexy, trash, trash, trash, sexy..." Sure, I see pretty girls and wish I could have sex with them. But I DON'T feel like "trashing" the other girls. If I'm feeling really horny, I may just not notice the other girls. If I'm not, I may notice them in some other way (cool shoes, looks upset...).
I -- and at least SOME other guys, I'm sure -- are more complex. I sometimes don't feel like sex, so no matter how "sexy" a woman is, I'm not interested. Many times in my life, I've been majorly turned on by a woman who didn't strike me as sexy at first -- and I'm aware of that -- so that's one of the things that stops me from "rating at first sight." I KNOW -- from experience -- that I can be turned on by pretty much any woman, if I click with her and if she's interested. So why would I consign one to the trash? I can see a woman, think she's pretty, and be left utterly cold by her. To some extent -- for me -- sexy is as sexy does.
I will admit that though I was never the cartoon character that you've created, I was more that way in my teens and twenties. Maybe you meant "all YOUNG men." Even then, I think you're overstating. And I know that there are older men who ARE as you've described. But not me. I can now look back on four decades during which most of my friends have been women. Some were more attractive than others. None have wound up in the trash.
(I am NOT claiming that men -- and woman -- don't have frequent lecherous thoughts. Most of them do. But that's different from what you're saying. And even then, "all doesn't make sense. People have varying levels of libido. Some people -- believe it or not -- have none.)
posted by grumblebee at 5:09 AM on October 16, 2006
beth, I don't think the public shaming was called for. Have you ever made a mistake? How about an email to the poster -- rather than public humiliation. To me, a bully comes off much worse than a bad speller.
posted by grumblebee at 5:12 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 5:12 AM on October 16, 2006
I can't stand people who go around labeling this or that more-or-less normal person "ugly" etc. Part of being a civilized, modern human being rather than a mindless animal is being tolerant of differences among us and seing beyond mere surface imperfections. I suspect the problem is not so much lack of intelligence as exposure to a culture of idiocy.
posted by snoktruix at 5:16 AM on October 16, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by snoktruix at 5:16 AM on October 16, 2006 [1 favorite]
Huh? languagehat, you know I appreciate your contributions, but come on. You did comment on her body.
In the first place, I see now that I misquoted myself (I'm suing me, dammit!): I had said that I don't criticize bodies, not that I don't comment on them, which would be silly since (as you point out) I just did. But on the larger issue of people talking about her body: of course people are talking about her body! If you get up on stage and take your clothes off, people are going to talk about your body. I don't think Ms. Martinez would be shocked at that, and I think people here who claim to be shocked (how dare you talk about a woman's body?!) are being terminally silly. If it were a guy doing that, people would mention the fact that he had a pot belly or stringy arms or whatever. If I didn't want my body discussed, I wouldn't expose it in public.
Anyway, you're not fighting with me, you're fighting with my misquote, for which I apologize. This discussion is loaded enough without tossing any monkey wrenches into it.
melissa may: I agree with everything you say, but I think you may be losing sight of the fact that this is not just a woman "out in public," this is a woman taking all her clothes off on stage, by her own choice. I don't think it's fair to use reactions to that as a club to beat reactions to women in general.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 AM on October 16, 2006
In the first place, I see now that I misquoted myself (I'm suing me, dammit!): I had said that I don't criticize bodies, not that I don't comment on them, which would be silly since (as you point out) I just did. But on the larger issue of people talking about her body: of course people are talking about her body! If you get up on stage and take your clothes off, people are going to talk about your body. I don't think Ms. Martinez would be shocked at that, and I think people here who claim to be shocked (how dare you talk about a woman's body?!) are being terminally silly. If it were a guy doing that, people would mention the fact that he had a pot belly or stringy arms or whatever. If I didn't want my body discussed, I wouldn't expose it in public.
Anyway, you're not fighting with me, you're fighting with my misquote, for which I apologize. This discussion is loaded enough without tossing any monkey wrenches into it.
melissa may: I agree with everything you say, but I think you may be losing sight of the fact that this is not just a woman "out in public," this is a woman taking all her clothes off on stage, by her own choice. I don't think it's fair to use reactions to that as a club to beat reactions to women in general.
posted by languagehat at 5:41 AM on October 16, 2006
If it were a guy doing that, people would mention the fact that he had a pot belly or stringy arms or whatever.
No way dude, not me, I'm more sophisticated than that. I would never, ever even think of rating the attractiveness of a man or woman who stripped naked on stage, or even just sitting in front of me fully clothed on the train, never, I swear. I most categorically deny keeping score of all the 7 to 10's of the day. I'm a delicate flower and I'm better than all you swine, so there.
Holy crap. I still haven't been able to watch the video, after having gone through all these weird comments I sure hope it's funny. Yet I'm sure all I'll be paying attention to is checking out her hips and tits. Damn! It'd have never occurred to me if it wasn't for you!
posted by pleeker at 7:32 AM on October 16, 2006
No way dude, not me, I'm more sophisticated than that. I would never, ever even think of rating the attractiveness of a man or woman who stripped naked on stage, or even just sitting in front of me fully clothed on the train, never, I swear. I most categorically deny keeping score of all the 7 to 10's of the day. I'm a delicate flower and I'm better than all you swine, so there.
Holy crap. I still haven't been able to watch the video, after having gone through all these weird comments I sure hope it's funny. Yet I'm sure all I'll be paying attention to is checking out her hips and tits. Damn! It'd have never occurred to me if it wasn't for you!
posted by pleeker at 7:32 AM on October 16, 2006
The incredible number of comments here shows that Martinez's performance art is doing its job: provoking thought in some people, and simply provoking others.
But I wanted to make a different point. Anyone notice the music. Isn't that from The Pink Panther? Isn't that an enormous musical pun in this context? If my memory fails, and it ISN'T from the Pink Panther, I'm sure someone will politely notify me.
posted by ubiquity at 7:39 AM on October 16, 2006
But I wanted to make a different point. Anyone notice the music. Isn't that from The Pink Panther? Isn't that an enormous musical pun in this context? If my memory fails, and it ISN'T from the Pink Panther, I'm sure someone will politely notify me.
posted by ubiquity at 7:39 AM on October 16, 2006
ubiquity, no one could be blamed for missing a few points in this loooong thread, but if you swim upstream a bit, you'll notice that I asked about the music and a couple of people pointed out that it's from "A Shot in the Dark", the sequel to "The Pink Panther."
posted by grumblebee at 8:02 AM on October 16, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 8:02 AM on October 16, 2006
Agreed on the misquote, languagehat.
Although, on another point:
this is a woman taking all her clothes off on stage, by her own choice. I don't think it's fair to use reactions to that as a club to beat reactions to women in general.
Well, we in turn are watching it, by our own choice. I think it's perfectly fair to take these reactions as examples to discuss reactions to women in general because, to borrow from the oft-parodied "female vocabulary", they're *so* typical. And I would agree with that sentiment.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:07 AM on October 16, 2006
Although, on another point:
this is a woman taking all her clothes off on stage, by her own choice. I don't think it's fair to use reactions to that as a club to beat reactions to women in general.
Well, we in turn are watching it, by our own choice. I think it's perfectly fair to take these reactions as examples to discuss reactions to women in general because, to borrow from the oft-parodied "female vocabulary", they're *so* typical. And I would agree with that sentiment.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:07 AM on October 16, 2006
lets see if i can help some of the denser folks understand the basic idea i brought up before:
1) having a beauty standard and applying it to every person you see... ok, you can't help it, it's natural
2) rating people's looks on binary or 1-10 or other ordinal scales... kinda lame, but whatever floats your boat...
3) proudly broadcasting unsolicited "ratings" on internet comment threads... you are a total fucking douchebag.
posted by mano at 12:23 PM on October 16, 2006
1) having a beauty standard and applying it to every person you see... ok, you can't help it, it's natural
2) rating people's looks on binary or 1-10 or other ordinal scales... kinda lame, but whatever floats your boat...
3) proudly broadcasting unsolicited "ratings" on internet comment threads... you are a total fucking douchebag.
posted by mano at 12:23 PM on October 16, 2006
But am I the only one who liked it because she made silly faces, danced to fun music and did magic? I don't give a hoot about "the point", "the context", or what it's "about."
Count me in your crowd. I thought it was great.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:52 PM on October 16, 2006
Count me in your crowd. I thought it was great.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:52 PM on October 16, 2006
Nah I don't seriously have a rating scale, and I couldn't care less about the degree of male appeal of Ms Martinez's hips or arse or tits, in fact I'm rather happy for her that she's a lesbian. Almost envious, for a moment.
Besides, if I was a lesbian, I'd definitely hit her.
Ok, in all seriousness, while several comments are of the 'typical' variety, it's not a female politician appearing in a tv debate all dressed in a boring suit (side by side with a bunch of male politicians whose non-attractiveness either raises no comments or is even an extra mark of reliability) for some of the males in the audience at home to rush to comment on how ugly she is and how much she looks like a man.
The fact she stripped naked and played with her genitals for comedy effect doesn't turn the more retarded part of this thread into intellectually stimulating material, but it's not something that can be overlooked either.
I'm not sure the Penis Puppetry dudes are that immune to hormone-fuelled comments about their assets either. The difference in that case is no heterosexual woman, and no gay man, really cares how not conventionally attractive and perfect the rest of you is when you're demonstrating you do have comedy talent. And a big package.
posted by pleeker at 2:32 PM on October 16, 2006
Besides, if I was a lesbian, I'd definitely hit her.
Ok, in all seriousness, while several comments are of the 'typical' variety, it's not a female politician appearing in a tv debate all dressed in a boring suit (side by side with a bunch of male politicians whose non-attractiveness either raises no comments or is even an extra mark of reliability) for some of the males in the audience at home to rush to comment on how ugly she is and how much she looks like a man.
The fact she stripped naked and played with her genitals for comedy effect doesn't turn the more retarded part of this thread into intellectually stimulating material, but it's not something that can be overlooked either.
I'm not sure the Penis Puppetry dudes are that immune to hormone-fuelled comments about their assets either. The difference in that case is no heterosexual woman, and no gay man, really cares how not conventionally attractive and perfect the rest of you is when you're demonstrating you do have comedy talent. And a big package.
posted by pleeker at 2:32 PM on October 16, 2006
Mano: Your point gains nothing with repetition. So you think discussion of subjective impressions of beauty should be taboo. I think people who get off on flinging insults in an anonymous forum are beneath contempt. Maybe somebody cares, but I doubt it.
Personally, I thought her physique was pretty much ideal, though I agree that her mannerisms were decidedly unsexy. I'm not sure whether this was intentional, or emulation of burlesque tradition, but I suspect a combination of both. The mind behind the body, definitely intriguing. As ubiquity noted she's definitely accomplishing the goals of performance art.
posted by Manjusri at 4:17 PM on October 16, 2006
Personally, I thought her physique was pretty much ideal, though I agree that her mannerisms were decidedly unsexy. I'm not sure whether this was intentional, or emulation of burlesque tradition, but I suspect a combination of both. The mind behind the body, definitely intriguing. As ubiquity noted she's definitely accomplishing the goals of performance art.
posted by Manjusri at 4:17 PM on October 16, 2006
I saw Mitch Hedburg at that festival 2 years ago.
I had no idea who he was. He came on last and brought the house down.
Caroline Rhea was the emcee. She kept her clothes on.
posted by wfc123 at 4:56 PM on October 16, 2006
I had no idea who he was. He came on last and brought the house down.
Caroline Rhea was the emcee. She kept her clothes on.
posted by wfc123 at 4:56 PM on October 16, 2006
manjusri:
looks like you missed the point both times. subjective impressions of her individual beauty were NOT the topic of discussion, not in this case, at least not until some juvenile fuckwits broached the topic because their dicks didnt get as reflexively hard as expected when they clicked the NSFW link and found a naked woman on their computer monitor.
if you want to talk about whether her performance was sexy or not, thats within reason, given that the performance was not *just* about a magic trick. but bringing the troglodytes out of the woodwork for a discussion about whether or not she (the person, rather than the performance, get the difference?) is a hot piece of ass that this bunch of drooling wankers want to stick it in is totally lame, retarded, misogynist and sexist.
and i dont know about you, but i was raised to call people out for this kind of shit, and not to be "nice" about it.
posted by mano at 5:09 PM on October 16, 2006
looks like you missed the point both times. subjective impressions of her individual beauty were NOT the topic of discussion, not in this case, at least not until some juvenile fuckwits broached the topic because their dicks didnt get as reflexively hard as expected when they clicked the NSFW link and found a naked woman on their computer monitor.
if you want to talk about whether her performance was sexy or not, thats within reason, given that the performance was not *just* about a magic trick. but bringing the troglodytes out of the woodwork for a discussion about whether or not she (the person, rather than the performance, get the difference?) is a hot piece of ass that this bunch of drooling wankers want to stick it in is totally lame, retarded, misogynist and sexist.
and i dont know about you, but i was raised to call people out for this kind of shit, and not to be "nice" about it.
posted by mano at 5:09 PM on October 16, 2006
Mano, I responded to what you wrote and who you quoted. If you had picked a more appropriate target for your venom, I wouldn't have bothered to reply.
You seem to have a moving target as your "point", but in any case, I disagree with all but (some of) your last post. She's performing a strip tease for god's sake. Her sexuality and desireability are certainly on topic, and discussing it doesn't imply misogyny or sexism. Not a particularly interesting topic perhaps, and at least one of the posters deserved a callout for crassness. But your manner of doing so doesn't elevate the discourse, quite the reverse.
posted by Manjusri at 7:09 PM on October 16, 2006
You seem to have a moving target as your "point", but in any case, I disagree with all but (some of) your last post. She's performing a strip tease for god's sake. Her sexuality and desireability are certainly on topic, and discussing it doesn't imply misogyny or sexism. Not a particularly interesting topic perhaps, and at least one of the posters deserved a callout for crassness. But your manner of doing so doesn't elevate the discourse, quite the reverse.
posted by Manjusri at 7:09 PM on October 16, 2006
yeah well some discourse doesnt deserve to be elevated.
also, i dont see how my target is moving. if its the original poster, my comments were never directed at him, but at the person he was responding to. if its the blaine analogy well i think its an even better analogy in retrospect.
male magicians expose their (and their assistants) bodies all the time, they apply makeup, they wear costumes, tight clothes, their performances are expected to be every bit as sexed and stereotyped as any stripshow.
i cant believe i bothered doing the search for you, but heres a mefi post about one of blaines shirtless exhibitionist adventures. somehow, the hetero ladies and queer men of mefi managed to avoid ruminating on how fuckable his hot body (or how not fuckable) was. even as they commented profusely on whether he was a talented performer or his performance had any merit (and what kind of merit).
and just to spice things up, since david blaines naked hot body wasnt enough... somehow, the hetero boys managed to talk about about just about everything else sexual they could think of that was related to the event - anything to avoided thinking those dastardly homoerotic thoughts...
they making up for the lack of blaine-jectification by working in comments about the topless chicks that visited the topless blaine, and a laudatory note concerning the size of penn jillete's cock (of penn and teller) but only as relates to him having fucked a acceptably hot chick with it.
i mean, this kind of double standard is pretty obvious and sickening and unfortunate, but i suppose we can stick our heads in the sand and argue there arent enough data points for us to convincingly call anyone a douchebag
posted by mano at 8:58 PM on October 16, 2006
also, i dont see how my target is moving. if its the original poster, my comments were never directed at him, but at the person he was responding to. if its the blaine analogy well i think its an even better analogy in retrospect.
male magicians expose their (and their assistants) bodies all the time, they apply makeup, they wear costumes, tight clothes, their performances are expected to be every bit as sexed and stereotyped as any stripshow.
i cant believe i bothered doing the search for you, but heres a mefi post about one of blaines shirtless exhibitionist adventures. somehow, the hetero ladies and queer men of mefi managed to avoid ruminating on how fuckable his hot body (or how not fuckable) was. even as they commented profusely on whether he was a talented performer or his performance had any merit (and what kind of merit).
and just to spice things up, since david blaines naked hot body wasnt enough... somehow, the hetero boys managed to talk about about just about everything else sexual they could think of that was related to the event - anything to avoided thinking those dastardly homoerotic thoughts...
they making up for the lack of blaine-jectification by working in comments about the topless chicks that visited the topless blaine, and a laudatory note concerning the size of penn jillete's cock (of penn and teller) but only as relates to him having fucked a acceptably hot chick with it.
i mean, this kind of double standard is pretty obvious and sickening and unfortunate, but i suppose we can stick our heads in the sand and argue there arent enough data points for us to convincingly call anyone a douchebag
posted by mano at 8:58 PM on October 16, 2006
Mano,
I like your comments!
And I'd love a bloke to explain what they think they're watching when they see the parade of "suitcase" women on that execrable show "Deal or No Deal".
"male magicians expose their (and their assistants) bodies all the time, they apply makeup, they wear costumes, tight clothes, their performances are expected to be every bit as sexed and stereotyped as any stripshow. "
Bingo, basically.
Which is why, I think, I laughed very hard when Ursula-the-naked did her automatic crotch swivel at the audience when she was completely undressed. I saw in ghostly procession behind her the same gesture from every bunny costumed magician's assistant I've ever watched on harmless children's TV shows.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 6:04 AM on October 17, 2006
I like your comments!
And I'd love a bloke to explain what they think they're watching when they see the parade of "suitcase" women on that execrable show "Deal or No Deal".
"male magicians expose their (and their assistants) bodies all the time, they apply makeup, they wear costumes, tight clothes, their performances are expected to be every bit as sexed and stereotyped as any stripshow. "
Bingo, basically.
Which is why, I think, I laughed very hard when Ursula-the-naked did her automatic crotch swivel at the audience when she was completely undressed. I saw in ghostly procession behind her the same gesture from every bunny costumed magician's assistant I've ever watched on harmless children's TV shows.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 6:04 AM on October 17, 2006
And I'd love a bloke to explain what they think they're watching when they see the parade of "suitcase" women on that execrable show "Deal or No Deal".
I have a complex rush of thoughts:
1) Oh, no. Not THIS show again.
2) What on Earth do the women have do with the show? They're totally gratuitous, like Vanna White. They could replace them with machines or with one woman (or man) who opens whatever case the player picks. Yes, I get that they're supposed to add sex appeal to the show, but the fact that the producers think they need sex appeal says something about the thinness of their concept. "20,000 Pyramid," whether you like it or not, doesn't need sexy chicks, because there's actually some substance to the game itself.
3) Some of those girls are pretty/sexy. So what? There are sexy women all over television.
4) Next!
posted by grumblebee at 6:59 AM on October 17, 2006
I have a complex rush of thoughts:
1) Oh, no. Not THIS show again.
2) What on Earth do the women have do with the show? They're totally gratuitous, like Vanna White. They could replace them with machines or with one woman (or man) who opens whatever case the player picks. Yes, I get that they're supposed to add sex appeal to the show, but the fact that the producers think they need sex appeal says something about the thinness of their concept. "20,000 Pyramid," whether you like it or not, doesn't need sexy chicks, because there's actually some substance to the game itself.
3) Some of those girls are pretty/sexy. So what? There are sexy women all over television.
4) Next!
posted by grumblebee at 6:59 AM on October 17, 2006
"Some of those girls are pretty/sexy. So what? There are sexy women all over television....next!"
Grumblebee,
I entirely take your point.
I suppose I was just thinking there was clearly a cascade of complex executive decisions behind the gratuitous parade on "Deal" and - in idle moments, and stirred up by Ursula-the-naked - one suddenly feels really pissed off.
Yeah, maybe it was a lame kvetch!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:22 AM on October 17, 2006
Grumblebee,
I entirely take your point.
I suppose I was just thinking there was clearly a cascade of complex executive decisions behind the gratuitous parade on "Deal" and - in idle moments, and stirred up by Ursula-the-naked - one suddenly feels really pissed off.
Yeah, maybe it was a lame kvetch!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:22 AM on October 17, 2006
The Blaine analogy is interesting, given that his performances are usually always about physicality in extremity. But they're more about atheleticism and denial of bodily urges, whereas Martinez's burlesque-ish show is ipso facto concerned with sexuality and the act of performance itself. There really aren't that many [straight] male performance artists comparisons you can make with the whole "feminist/smartgrrrrl/lesbo" critique that Martinez's ilk offers up - my Athey link above is decidedly queer - but it's probably just the times. I would like a Jude-Law-like stud to offer me up an intellectual critique of soap-selling; can anyone find me one? Is there anything even remotely that playful out there?
It's obvious this thread isn't going anywhere (although I'm gratified to learn what really happens to the hanky!), but I've just been rankled by it so much that I've been checking in from time to time for a laugh, and didn't want grumblebee "complex thought cavalcade" to be the last word. /rant
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:46 AM on October 17, 2006
It's obvious this thread isn't going anywhere (although I'm gratified to learn what really happens to the hanky!), but I've just been rankled by it so much that I've been checking in from time to time for a laugh, and didn't want grumblebee "complex thought cavalcade" to be the last word. /rant
posted by DenOfSizer at 8:46 AM on October 17, 2006
Sorry about you not wanting my cavalcade to have the last word, DenOfSizer. Feel free to post after me.
Sadly, I think there is "a cascade of complex executive decisions behind the" Deal girls. I can't really get upset about the "sexism," because I don't think there's anything wrong with "objectifying" women. Anyway, right or wrong, it's going to happen: many people like looking at the female form, and so they will do it.
I DO think our culture is ill when it has a double-standard about objectifying men vs. women. And I do think particular people are ill when the ONLY way they can relate to another person is by objectifying her (or him). But I don't have a problem with an individual who watches Deal and things, "Wow! Hot chicks." I don't even have a problem with someone who watches Deal FOR the "hot chicks" (Is there a better reason to watch that lame show?), although I'm not sure why that person doesn't turn to some better show that has hot chicks on it.
But I can't stant the producers trying to sell me a GAME SHOW and fobbing me off with a boring variation of the slot machine -- and trying to distract me with how boring it is by showing me models. That's an insult to game shows and an insult to attractive women (an attractive woman -- or person -- is worth viewing for their own qualities, not as icing on a stale cake). I hate the whole attitude of "throw a few sexy chicks in and a car crash so that it's more exciting." It's a cop out. How about throwing some good WRITING in and a good CONCEPT.
I have to attend a lot of techie trade shows, and it's always fascinating to me how some of the booths just show off their wares while others try to entice you with a sexy girl in a miniskirt stationed at the booth. It's almost always a sign of a lame product or a scared company. At one I went to, Apple was featuring the iPod. No models. Some other company was trying to sell a cheap iPod knockoff. Guess what? They'd hired models.
posted by grumblebee at 9:10 AM on October 17, 2006
Sadly, I think there is "a cascade of complex executive decisions behind the" Deal girls. I can't really get upset about the "sexism," because I don't think there's anything wrong with "objectifying" women. Anyway, right or wrong, it's going to happen: many people like looking at the female form, and so they will do it.
I DO think our culture is ill when it has a double-standard about objectifying men vs. women. And I do think particular people are ill when the ONLY way they can relate to another person is by objectifying her (or him). But I don't have a problem with an individual who watches Deal and things, "Wow! Hot chicks." I don't even have a problem with someone who watches Deal FOR the "hot chicks" (Is there a better reason to watch that lame show?), although I'm not sure why that person doesn't turn to some better show that has hot chicks on it.
But I can't stant the producers trying to sell me a GAME SHOW and fobbing me off with a boring variation of the slot machine -- and trying to distract me with how boring it is by showing me models. That's an insult to game shows and an insult to attractive women (an attractive woman -- or person -- is worth viewing for their own qualities, not as icing on a stale cake). I hate the whole attitude of "throw a few sexy chicks in and a car crash so that it's more exciting." It's a cop out. How about throwing some good WRITING in and a good CONCEPT.
I have to attend a lot of techie trade shows, and it's always fascinating to me how some of the booths just show off their wares while others try to entice you with a sexy girl in a miniskirt stationed at the booth. It's almost always a sign of a lame product or a scared company. At one I went to, Apple was featuring the iPod. No models. Some other company was trying to sell a cheap iPod knockoff. Guess what? They'd hired models.
posted by grumblebee at 9:10 AM on October 17, 2006
Whatever, grumblebeeDude. I knew you wouldn't be able to resist a final Musing, but I do really like your plump unpecked cherries, so it's all good.
posted by DenOfSizer at 9:31 AM on October 17, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 9:31 AM on October 17, 2006
Ok I'll have the last word then :)
The Blaine analogy is interesting, given that his performances are usually always about physicality in extremity. But they're more about atheleticism and denial of bodily urges
Exactly. Also, he's really creepy...
These guys are not what you're looking for either, well at least I'm not sure if there's any 'critique' element at all there, though there's also a queer appeal (queer plus incestous?), but if Blaine was less of a creep and did that kind of acrobatics rather than pointless irritating stunts such as the cube over Thames thing, at least his physicality would be a lot more obviously sexual.
posted by pleeker at 10:08 AM on October 17, 2006
The Blaine analogy is interesting, given that his performances are usually always about physicality in extremity. But they're more about atheleticism and denial of bodily urges
Exactly. Also, he's really creepy...
These guys are not what you're looking for either, well at least I'm not sure if there's any 'critique' element at all there, though there's also a queer appeal (queer plus incestous?), but if Blaine was less of a creep and did that kind of acrobatics rather than pointless irritating stunts such as the cube over Thames thing, at least his physicality would be a lot more obviously sexual.
posted by pleeker at 10:08 AM on October 17, 2006
Wow, the Cesear twins...gotta translate that mad shit. Thanks. And oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not sure if I want to see it, but I might respect Blaine more if he made his dick disappear, --- but I don't think he has the balls.
posted by DenOfSizer at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2006
posted by DenOfSizer at 10:51 AM on October 17, 2006
Not trying to regain the last word, but that side DenOfSizer linked to -- plump unpecked cherries -- is NSFW!!!
posted by grumblebee at 11:24 AM on October 17, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 11:24 AM on October 17, 2006
side = site
posted by grumblebee at 11:24 AM on October 17, 2006
posted by grumblebee at 11:24 AM on October 17, 2006
« Older Freedy Fender, RIP. | All Music is Shite. Discuss. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by hal9k at 7:07 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]