video of LAPD beating up a gang member
November 11, 2006 12:40 AM Subscribe
was there just a second ago... Cop Watch LA, a police watchdog group, posted the video on YouTube, said organizer Joaquin Cienfuegos. Cienfuegos said the video was shot by a neighbor of Cardenas with a cell phone camera. The neighbor gave it to Cardenas' family, who then gave it to Cop Watch, according to Cienfuegos.
Man, I was going to come in here to complain that the link didn't work, but I was beaten to it. This post has failed me in so many ways.
posted by allen.spaulding at 12:45 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by allen.spaulding at 12:45 AM on November 11, 2006
Searching YouTube for "William Cardenas", or going to the CopWatch website, would have turned it up pretty much instantly.
Horrible video, though. Cop's kneeling on the guy's throat; guy croaks "I can't breathe"; cop delivers a flurry of punches to his face.
The Los Angeles Times reported Friday that a Superior Court commissioner viewed the video nearly two months ago, heard the officers' testimony, and concluded that their conduct was 'more than reasonable' because Cardenas was resisting.
More than reasonable.
posted by stammer at 12:51 AM on November 11, 2006
Horrible video, though. Cop's kneeling on the guy's throat; guy croaks "I can't breathe"; cop delivers a flurry of punches to his face.
The Los Angeles Times reported Friday that a Superior Court commissioner viewed the video nearly two months ago, heard the officers' testimony, and concluded that their conduct was 'more than reasonable' because Cardenas was resisting.
More than reasonable.
posted by stammer at 12:51 AM on November 11, 2006
Ugh. Granted, the punches to the face were a bit much, but having some more context would have been helpful. If the guy had been running and fighting the cops off before the video, its a different story then if he was cooperating and submitting.
posted by rsanheim at 1:15 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by rsanheim at 1:15 AM on November 11, 2006
What context could excuse this behavior? The only context you need to know is that the police are never brought to account for behavior like this.
posted by allen.spaulding at 1:29 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by allen.spaulding at 1:29 AM on November 11, 2006
From the CNN article,
William Cardenas, 23, a gang member, was wanted on a felony warrant for receiving stolen property, police said. On August 11, officers Patrick Farrell and Alexander Schlegel recognized him and chased him. Cardenas ran.
When they tried to arrest Cardenas, the police say, Cardenas struggled.
posted by aberrant at 1:56 AM on November 11, 2006
William Cardenas, 23, a gang member, was wanted on a felony warrant for receiving stolen property, police said. On August 11, officers Patrick Farrell and Alexander Schlegel recognized him and chased him. Cardenas ran.
When they tried to arrest Cardenas, the police say, Cardenas struggled.
posted by aberrant at 1:56 AM on November 11, 2006
When they tried to arrest Cardenas, the police say, Cardenas struggled.
He may well have struggled earlier on. But you know what? When they stop struggling, I expect the police to also stop beating.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:07 AM on November 11, 2006 [3 favorites]
He may well have struggled earlier on. But you know what? When they stop struggling, I expect the police to also stop beating.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:07 AM on November 11, 2006 [3 favorites]
It looks to me like he was still struggling when the throat-kneeling cop punched him.
posted by metaplectic at 2:44 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by metaplectic at 2:44 AM on November 11, 2006
Yeah, struggling to breathe!
posted by Bravocharlie at 3:07 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by Bravocharlie at 3:07 AM on November 11, 2006
Yea, yea, but did the punches make him confess? If they make him confess, then, obviously, its all worth the effort. You can't coddle criminals, ya know.
posted by Goofyy at 4:05 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by Goofyy at 4:05 AM on November 11, 2006
It takes a brave cop to hold a man down, knee his throat, and punch him in the face.
posted by orthogonality at 4:08 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by orthogonality at 4:08 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
If the guy had been running and fighting the cops off before the video
Once the suspect is pinned in that manner (which looks like a shonky bit of control, considering there are two officers) there is no possible reason to hit them in the face. The officers show no ability to restrain the suspect in a controlled and safe manner. Hitting him in the face is one of the least likely ways of getting him to submit, considering they have his hands and legs to play with. I suppose they might be out of breath after a chase, judging by their corpulent appearence they probably didn't enjoy any physical exercise and that might leave them in a weak position to make decisions. Not the kind of people I would want protecting the peace.
This footage and the response from the Court comissioner are clear examples of a lack of accountability that serves to undermine the publics confidence in the force.
Anyone got any more details on this?
posted by asok at 4:20 AM on November 11, 2006
Once the suspect is pinned in that manner (which looks like a shonky bit of control, considering there are two officers) there is no possible reason to hit them in the face. The officers show no ability to restrain the suspect in a controlled and safe manner. Hitting him in the face is one of the least likely ways of getting him to submit, considering they have his hands and legs to play with. I suppose they might be out of breath after a chase, judging by their corpulent appearence they probably didn't enjoy any physical exercise and that might leave them in a weak position to make decisions. Not the kind of people I would want protecting the peace.
This footage and the response from the Court comissioner are clear examples of a lack of accountability that serves to undermine the publics confidence in the force.
Anyone got any more details on this?
posted by asok at 4:20 AM on November 11, 2006
Suspect wanted for receiving stolen property which was a gun. The 'I can't breathe' line is probably a standard thing to say when you are being restrained as they don't like the paperwork that results when someone is asphyxiated whilst being restrianed want to kill him. However the punches to the face are an inexcusable abuse of position as well as an ineffective way of controlling the situation. Not good police work.
posted by asok at 4:32 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by asok at 4:32 AM on November 11, 2006
In other news, people hit cop's hands with their faces ! How dare they ?
posted by elpapacito at 4:58 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by elpapacito at 4:58 AM on November 11, 2006
timeline of events before the tape hit youtube here
after it was released the LA Daily News put the vid on the main page of their website. only the second time theyve put a youtube vid on their front page
sort of a self link since i edit LAist
posted by tsarfan at 5:03 AM on November 11, 2006
after it was released the LA Daily News put the vid on the main page of their website. only the second time theyve put a youtube vid on their front page
sort of a self link since i edit LAist
posted by tsarfan at 5:03 AM on November 11, 2006
If someone's standing on your fucking throat, you're going to resist. It's called the will to fucking live.
I hope these cops' faces are plastered all over the internet. I hope the fear of retaliation turns them into hermits afraid of an army of angry citizens waiting to jump on their fucking necks and take some free punches to their heads.
Bad cops are worse than the criminals they're supposedly protecting us from. We don't expect any better from criminals, but we legally empower these bullies in blue.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:07 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
I hope these cops' faces are plastered all over the internet. I hope the fear of retaliation turns them into hermits afraid of an army of angry citizens waiting to jump on their fucking necks and take some free punches to their heads.
Bad cops are worse than the criminals they're supposedly protecting us from. We don't expect any better from criminals, but we legally empower these bullies in blue.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:07 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
The double edge sword of a surveillance society means that when people act atrociously on our behalf the denial has to change from deliberate ignorance to actively condoned inhumanity. Abu Ghraib will one day meet the 1,000,000+ sanctioned rape victims in the US prison system.
posted by srboisvert at 5:19 AM on November 11, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 5:19 AM on November 11, 2006 [2 favorites]
The 'I can't breathe' line is probably a standard thing to say when you are being restrained
you are right! Completely standard!
posted by Bravocharlie at 5:44 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
you are right! Completely standard!
posted by Bravocharlie at 5:44 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Well, if you play it backwards, you see us pick King up and helping him on his way."
posted by tapeguy at 6:19 AM on November 11, 2006 [4 favorites]
posted by tapeguy at 6:19 AM on November 11, 2006 [4 favorites]
Ah, once again the cop haters crawl out of the woodwork.
News flash: If he can say "I can't breathe" three times and a few other words ... he can breathe. If he would have quit resisting arrest and hadn't taken off running in the first place, this never would have happened. This kind of crap has been going on for years. Should the cop have hit him? Probably not. But what's the next option? Pepper spray. I'm sure that would have been met with cries of "police brutality" too.
The only thing that's different about this is that someone went and slapped the video up on YouTube. That's the big buzzword in this case.
This guy will probably sue and will get a nice multimillion dollar settlement from the city.
posted by drstein at 8:30 AM on November 11, 2006
News flash: If he can say "I can't breathe" three times and a few other words ... he can breathe. If he would have quit resisting arrest and hadn't taken off running in the first place, this never would have happened. This kind of crap has been going on for years. Should the cop have hit him? Probably not. But what's the next option? Pepper spray. I'm sure that would have been met with cries of "police brutality" too.
The only thing that's different about this is that someone went and slapped the video up on YouTube. That's the big buzzword in this case.
This guy will probably sue and will get a nice multimillion dollar settlement from the city.
posted by drstein at 8:30 AM on November 11, 2006
LA cops are pussies when it comes to suspects. Portland cops know how to treat mentally ill subjects whom they believe to have urinated in public:
"Chasse died from broad-based blunt-force trauma to the chest, an autopsy found. He suffered 26 breaks to 16 ribs, some of which punctured his left lung. A Multnomah County grand jury found no criminal wrongdoing."
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:35 AM on November 11, 2006
"Chasse died from broad-based blunt-force trauma to the chest, an autopsy found. He suffered 26 breaks to 16 ribs, some of which punctured his left lung. A Multnomah County grand jury found no criminal wrongdoing."
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:35 AM on November 11, 2006
Disturbing. I mean obviously disturbing, but there are many incidents when everyday normal citizens (no record, not in a gang) get treated like shit by cops just because they can do it. With the idea being now in police departments now (since Bratton and Guiliani established it in NYC), that if you go after the small crimes you eventually throw a net big enough to get people who're committing bigger crimes (and create a dominant cop presence).
I think it's important that people know that the only thing that is going to stop this sort of behavior is to bear witness and take photos, shoot video (and if you're being manhandled by a cop on the street, make a scene and shout "I need a witness!!").
Anyhow, could someone clarify what a private citizens rights are to record police behavior? Can they take your camera away? Should you be stealthy or out in the open so they see you? Is it legal, but you risk a punch in the face and a made up charge? I ask because the critical mass ride here in NYC (non criminals on bicycles for fucks sake) has become a monthly encounter with the police since the RNC happened here and Bloomberg got his panites in a bunch over regular people thinking they had a right to assemble (I gag every time I hear anyone talk about him or Guiliani being mentioned as presidential candidates. Guiliani did the bare minimum of what any decent mayor should've done on 911).
posted by Skygazer at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2006
I think it's important that people know that the only thing that is going to stop this sort of behavior is to bear witness and take photos, shoot video (and if you're being manhandled by a cop on the street, make a scene and shout "I need a witness!!").
Anyhow, could someone clarify what a private citizens rights are to record police behavior? Can they take your camera away? Should you be stealthy or out in the open so they see you? Is it legal, but you risk a punch in the face and a made up charge? I ask because the critical mass ride here in NYC (non criminals on bicycles for fucks sake) has become a monthly encounter with the police since the RNC happened here and Bloomberg got his panites in a bunch over regular people thinking they had a right to assemble (I gag every time I hear anyone talk about him or Guiliani being mentioned as presidential candidates. Guiliani did the bare minimum of what any decent mayor should've done on 911).
posted by Skygazer at 8:38 AM on November 11, 2006
If you can talk you can breathe. Its really that simple.
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:42 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:42 AM on November 11, 2006
Cops are like soldiers - but without any real honor. I mean, they beat up their own fellow citizens, ffs.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:47 AM on November 11, 2006
If you can talk you can breathe. Its really that simple.
You mean, it's really that stupid. Ask anyone with severe asthma what saying "I can't breathe" means.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:48 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
You mean, it's really that stupid. Ask anyone with severe asthma what saying "I can't breathe" means.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 8:48 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
[fixed the FPP link]
posted by jessamyn at 5:01 AM EST on November 11
i'm a logged in member, and all i get is the flagged video confirmation screen. no matter how many times i click "confirm".
posted by quonsar at 8:55 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by jessamyn at 5:01 AM EST on November 11
i'm a logged in member, and all i get is the flagged video confirmation screen. no matter how many times i click "confirm".
posted by quonsar at 8:55 AM on November 11, 2006
If he would have quit resisting arrest and hadn't taken off running in the first place, this never would have happened.
He obviously wanted to be knelt upon and sucker-punched by a cop. Normally, he'd hire someone, but he was broke that day...
posted by owhydididoit at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2006
He obviously wanted to be knelt upon and sucker-punched by a cop. Normally, he'd hire someone, but he was broke that day...
posted by owhydididoit at 9:08 AM on November 11, 2006
If you can talk you can breathe. Its really that simple.
News flash: If he can say "I can't breathe" three times and a few other words ... he can breathe.
Newsflash: If you can't say "I can't breathe" when you actually can't breathe it's too fucking late.
Wow. Are you guys really that dense? Say what you want about the circumstances of the situation, but don't be so disingenuous. I'm sure if someone in that situation wants to gbe accurate, they could try and spit out "I'm having trouble breathing and am afraid that soon I won't be able to breathe at all", but I'm guessing if you're really feeling like that then that kind of accurate description doesn't easily present itself. I guess this guy* could breath just fine...
*as linked by Bravocharlie upthread
posted by Stauf at 9:15 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
News flash: If he can say "I can't breathe" three times and a few other words ... he can breathe.
Newsflash: If you can't say "I can't breathe" when you actually can't breathe it's too fucking late.
Wow. Are you guys really that dense? Say what you want about the circumstances of the situation, but don't be so disingenuous. I'm sure if someone in that situation wants to gbe accurate, they could try and spit out "I'm having trouble breathing and am afraid that soon I won't be able to breathe at all", but I'm guessing if you're really feeling like that then that kind of accurate description doesn't easily present itself. I guess this guy* could breath just fine...
*as linked by Bravocharlie upthread
posted by Stauf at 9:15 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
Wow - I like the parsing of the phrase 'I can't breathe' with no attention paid to the tone of voice - it's obvious he's intensely afraid and distressed.
posted by jettloe at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by jettloe at 9:20 AM on November 11, 2006
jettloe: Agreed. Did these people actually WATCH the video?
Yes, he's still struggling! Flailing helplessly and begging for air, not fighting back in any meaningful sense.
Yes, he's actually SAYING "I can't breathe" which suggests he can get some air. But it gets more and more panicked the more he says it, and it's clearly desperate.
And to you what I guess are non-cop-haters: Can you tell me what the fuck the purpose of belting the guy in the face multiple times was? Which part of law enforcement training is it where they say if a guy's resisting, but held down, the right thing to do is to punch him in the face repeatedly?
Jesus.
posted by wolftrouble at 9:40 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
Yes, he's still struggling! Flailing helplessly and begging for air, not fighting back in any meaningful sense.
Yes, he's actually SAYING "I can't breathe" which suggests he can get some air. But it gets more and more panicked the more he says it, and it's clearly desperate.
And to you what I guess are non-cop-haters: Can you tell me what the fuck the purpose of belting the guy in the face multiple times was? Which part of law enforcement training is it where they say if a guy's resisting, but held down, the right thing to do is to punch him in the face repeatedly?
Jesus.
posted by wolftrouble at 9:40 AM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
quonsar & JParker: This copy of the video doesn't seem to be behind a login page.
posted by Upton O'Good at 9:50 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by Upton O'Good at 9:50 AM on November 11, 2006
Well, they're just following the example set by our great leaders. If it makes you feel better, then it's okay. So, if punching some random guy in the face that can't possibly hurt you makes you feel better, then that's just splendid.
Doesn't hurt that you have a nice shiny badge to hide behind and friendly court officers that encourage that behavior as well.
You'd think the LAPD would have learned by now, but no.
posted by Talanvor at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2006
Doesn't hurt that you have a nice shiny badge to hide behind and friendly court officers that encourage that behavior as well.
You'd think the LAPD would have learned by now, but no.
posted by Talanvor at 9:56 AM on November 11, 2006
What is the purpose of that second cop just sitting there straddling the suspect? Can't he be working on getting some cuffs of the guy? He seems more content to just help immobilize the guy while his buddy punches the dude in the face. Punchy seems to have one arm held, you grab the other with both hands and get a cuff on - there's step one.
posted by glycolized at 9:58 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by glycolized at 9:58 AM on November 11, 2006
drstein : Should the cop have hit him? Probably not. But what's the next option? Pepper spray. I'm sure that would have been met with cries of "police brutality" too.
Yes. The officer should have used pepper spray. No it would not have been police brutality.
A law enforcement officer should never strike a suspect in the face. The potential for accidental permanent damage is simply too great. Similarly an officer should never strike a suspect with a fist. They are issued gear for specifically this reason: it provides a level of oversight into the amount of force necessary to subdue someone. First you use pepper spray, next you might use a tazer, after that you might employ your PR-24 or ASP batton, finally you may have to use your firearm. (Obviously it's up to the officer to determine what situation warrants what reponse; e.g. you wouldn't use pepper spray on someone holding a gun to a hostages head.) If you use undue force, you can be held responsible. The equipment provides a measurement into the appropriateness of the response.
posted by quin at 10:22 AM on November 11, 2006
Yes. The officer should have used pepper spray. No it would not have been police brutality.
A law enforcement officer should never strike a suspect in the face. The potential for accidental permanent damage is simply too great. Similarly an officer should never strike a suspect with a fist. They are issued gear for specifically this reason: it provides a level of oversight into the amount of force necessary to subdue someone. First you use pepper spray, next you might use a tazer, after that you might employ your PR-24 or ASP batton, finally you may have to use your firearm. (Obviously it's up to the officer to determine what situation warrants what reponse; e.g. you wouldn't use pepper spray on someone holding a gun to a hostages head.) If you use undue force, you can be held responsible. The equipment provides a measurement into the appropriateness of the response.
posted by quin at 10:22 AM on November 11, 2006
License to kill.
These ignorant cop-lovers facilitate this behavior- because cops know there will always be people defending their every action and making excuses for repugnant behavior like this.
posted by wfc123 at 10:23 AM on November 11, 2006
These ignorant cop-lovers facilitate this behavior- because cops know there will always be people defending their every action and making excuses for repugnant behavior like this.
posted by wfc123 at 10:23 AM on November 11, 2006
Cops also rely on this comforting fact:
Who investigates the police? The police.
posted by wfc123 at 10:25 AM on November 11, 2006
Who investigates the police? The police.
posted by wfc123 at 10:25 AM on November 11, 2006
Who investigates the police? The police.
posted by wfc123
Or a Grand Jury which is run by the prosecuting attorney who often has the same boss as the chief of police.
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:40 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by wfc123
Or a Grand Jury which is run by the prosecuting attorney who often has the same boss as the chief of police.
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:40 AM on November 11, 2006
That is a very disturbing video. That guy deserves to be thrown off the force and into prison. I a sure the guy they were arresting was no choir boy, but once you have the suspect pinned down punching him repeatedly in the face is completely unwarranted. What a thug.
posted by caddis at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by caddis at 10:53 AM on November 11, 2006
This is not going to change until more witnesses and victims of this kind of brutality pull guns instead of cell phones. If we can't trust the cops to police themselves, it's time for us to police them, by any means necessary...
posted by vorfeed at 11:04 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by vorfeed at 11:04 AM on November 11, 2006
This is no instance to debate valid use of force. These are some lousy cops and they should be fired for the sake of good ones who need to occasionally defend a valid and professional application of force.
posted by scarabic at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by scarabic at 11:08 AM on November 11, 2006
I've seen both cops and security guards get awfully worked up in the physical effort and adrenaline of a pursuit and takedown. Often the cops show restraint and many times the rent-a-cops do not, once they finally get their quarry. But there are exceptions.
Can this be explained by anything other than anger?
It's like parents who defend hitting their kids on "principles" of discipline, yet it only ever seems to happen when they lose their temper.
posted by dreamsign at 11:09 AM on November 11, 2006
Can this be explained by anything other than anger?
It's like parents who defend hitting their kids on "principles" of discipline, yet it only ever seems to happen when they lose their temper.
posted by dreamsign at 11:09 AM on November 11, 2006
That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard, vorfeed. Have fun getting shot.
posted by scarabic at 11:10 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by scarabic at 11:10 AM on November 11, 2006
The head of the Portland Police Union has given Starbucks gift certificates to the officers who used the most force in making arrests.
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2006
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:11 AM on November 11, 2006
This is not going to change until more witnesses and victims of this kind of brutality pull guns instead of cell phones.
No, they should keep pulling their cell phones. Keep the tape rolling. Get their faces plastered all over the internet.
Later—much later—they'll meet justice face-to-face in a lonely dark alley.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:18 AM on November 11, 2006
No, they should keep pulling their cell phones. Keep the tape rolling. Get their faces plastered all over the internet.
Later—much later—they'll meet justice face-to-face in a lonely dark alley.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:18 AM on November 11, 2006
I saw this on the news the other night. The guy had already punched a cop in the face and run, they caught him and he was still struggling. Why do people think fighting with cops is a good idea?
Sorry but my sympathy reserves just can't be extended for this guy.
Oh yeah, the link was broken and Confirming it with YouTube didn't allow me to see it (again).
posted by fenriq at 11:29 AM on November 11, 2006
Sorry but my sympathy reserves just can't be extended for this guy.
Oh yeah, the link was broken and Confirming it with YouTube didn't allow me to see it (again).
posted by fenriq at 11:29 AM on November 11, 2006
"The only thing that's different about this is that someone went and slapped the video up on YouTube."
In other words, this is business as usual for the police.
Nothing to see here, move along!
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:35 AM on November 11, 2006
In other words, this is business as usual for the police.
Nothing to see here, move along!
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:35 AM on November 11, 2006
Sorry but my sympathy reserves just can't be extended for this guy.
I don't think anyone's draining their sympathy reservoirs over the victim/suspect as much as they're horrified at the behavior of the police officers.
It may be understandable to a certain extent that cops would be agitated after a foot chase, but the Spider-man principle applies here: cops, entrusted with greater power than the average citizen must be accountable to higher levels of responsibility.
posted by CRM114 at 11:43 AM on November 11, 2006 [2 favorites]
I don't think anyone's draining their sympathy reservoirs over the victim/suspect as much as they're horrified at the behavior of the police officers.
It may be understandable to a certain extent that cops would be agitated after a foot chase, but the Spider-man principle applies here: cops, entrusted with greater power than the average citizen must be accountable to higher levels of responsibility.
posted by CRM114 at 11:43 AM on November 11, 2006 [2 favorites]
Unacceptable behavior by the cops.
It doesn't matter if the suspect previously punched them in the face. It doesn't matter if he just brutally raped, shot, and killed someone.
Once you have a knee on his neck and another guy straddling, and a cuff on one hand, you put the other cuff on the other hand, or maybe roll him over and twist his arm behind his back to cuff him that way.
The whole "we thought he'd grab our guns" line of reasoning is obviously horseshit, because the other cop is talking on his walkie-talkie with one hand. If he was worried about his gun getting grabbed, why wasn't he holding the suspect's arms with both hands?
There is no legitimate reason to do what they did. Period. They are guilty of police brutality.
They have some "excuse" defenses that might make them less culpable, i.e. they were angry, afraid, or had adrenaline. I can sympathize with cops quite a bit: they are constant targets, they get shot at, punched, spit on, and insulted by armchair police chiefs like us all the time. It's a rough job. But it's clear as day that they committed a crime.
posted by zekinskia at 11:59 AM on November 11, 2006
It doesn't matter if the suspect previously punched them in the face. It doesn't matter if he just brutally raped, shot, and killed someone.
Once you have a knee on his neck and another guy straddling, and a cuff on one hand, you put the other cuff on the other hand, or maybe roll him over and twist his arm behind his back to cuff him that way.
The whole "we thought he'd grab our guns" line of reasoning is obviously horseshit, because the other cop is talking on his walkie-talkie with one hand. If he was worried about his gun getting grabbed, why wasn't he holding the suspect's arms with both hands?
There is no legitimate reason to do what they did. Period. They are guilty of police brutality.
They have some "excuse" defenses that might make them less culpable, i.e. they were angry, afraid, or had adrenaline. I can sympathize with cops quite a bit: they are constant targets, they get shot at, punched, spit on, and insulted by armchair police chiefs like us all the time. It's a rough job. But it's clear as day that they committed a crime.
posted by zekinskia at 11:59 AM on November 11, 2006
That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard, vorfeed. Have fun getting shot.
Yeah, well, when the choice is between that or passively hoping that Nice Mr. Officer won't quite kill me as he chokes me and belts me in the face, I'll take the bullet. At least that way I've got a chance to even the score. If someone assaulted me in the street in this manner, I'd do everything I could to fight back. I don't see how it's any different if the assaulter is a cop, and I don't think cops ought to get a free "beat the shit out of people" pass. We're always being told this is a War On Terrorism, a War On Drugs, etc. -- when was the last time you saw a war in which one side was expected to stand around taking pictures while their comrades were being beaten? If the cops had to expect to kill or be killed every time they pulled this kind of abusive crap, maybe they'd actually quit pulling it.
I'm tired of living in a country that hands out life sentences and the death penalty like candy, and then gives killer cops paid leave and a little frowny face on their report cards. As far as I'm concerned, cops who abuse their authority ought to be tried like the traitors they are, and then hung or shot out behind the courthouse. Since the courts aren't interested in enforcing the law when it comes to police, the street'll do fine...
posted by vorfeed at 12:02 PM on November 11, 2006
Yeah, well, when the choice is between that or passively hoping that Nice Mr. Officer won't quite kill me as he chokes me and belts me in the face, I'll take the bullet. At least that way I've got a chance to even the score. If someone assaulted me in the street in this manner, I'd do everything I could to fight back. I don't see how it's any different if the assaulter is a cop, and I don't think cops ought to get a free "beat the shit out of people" pass. We're always being told this is a War On Terrorism, a War On Drugs, etc. -- when was the last time you saw a war in which one side was expected to stand around taking pictures while their comrades were being beaten? If the cops had to expect to kill or be killed every time they pulled this kind of abusive crap, maybe they'd actually quit pulling it.
I'm tired of living in a country that hands out life sentences and the death penalty like candy, and then gives killer cops paid leave and a little frowny face on their report cards. As far as I'm concerned, cops who abuse their authority ought to be tried like the traitors they are, and then hung or shot out behind the courthouse. Since the courts aren't interested in enforcing the law when it comes to police, the street'll do fine...
posted by vorfeed at 12:02 PM on November 11, 2006
Is choking a guy and punching him in the face the best arrest method the cops have in their arsenal of tricks?
posted by DieHipsterDie at 12:21 PM on November 11, 2006
posted by DieHipsterDie at 12:21 PM on November 11, 2006
drstein opines "Ah, once again the cop haters crawl out of the woodwork. "
Good. I hope you won't object if I put my knee down on your throat. And punch you repeatedly in the face while a buddy of mine is also restraining you by holding your hands. After all it's no big deal, right?
posted by clevershark at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2006
Good. I hope you won't object if I put my knee down on your throat. And punch you repeatedly in the face while a buddy of mine is also restraining you by holding your hands. After all it's no big deal, right?
posted by clevershark at 12:24 PM on November 11, 2006
Good. I hope you won't object if I put my knee down on your throat. And punch you repeatedly in the face while a buddy of mine is also restraining you by holding your hands. After all it's no big deal, right?
I didn't realize drstein was a gang member resisting arrest for receiving a stolen handgun.
posted by keswick at 12:49 PM on November 11, 2006
I didn't realize drstein was a gang member resisting arrest for receiving a stolen handgun.
posted by keswick at 12:49 PM on November 11, 2006
Keswick, Drstein is as much a gang banger as was mr. Cardenas. At least until a trial proves otherwise. Of course, the po-pos are too.
(Oh, and not that it matters much, but the you tube snippet claimed he was innocent. Soon, though, he may be guilty of resisting arrest.)
posted by Bravocharlie at 1:14 PM on November 11, 2006
(Oh, and not that it matters much, but the you tube snippet claimed he was innocent. Soon, though, he may be guilty of resisting arrest.)
posted by Bravocharlie at 1:14 PM on November 11, 2006
Is it me, or did it look like the bald brute's partner was trying to stop the punching? Assholes like this guy have got to be a major headache for the officers who joined the force for all the right reasons. Bad enough that they must confront urban decay every day, even worse that folks that ought to be aiding their efforts become a liability when they get their blood up.
The victim sounded genuinely terrified to me. I reckon you'd be too if some son of a bitch had his knee in your throat and his fist in your eye socket. Especially if you knew the bastard had the state behind him.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, anyhow? Looks like cramming a camera into your phone has a point after all.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2006
The victim sounded genuinely terrified to me. I reckon you'd be too if some son of a bitch had his knee in your throat and his fist in your eye socket. Especially if you knew the bastard had the state behind him.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes, anyhow? Looks like cramming a camera into your phone has a point after all.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:45 PM on November 11, 2006
you are right! Completely standard!
Kind of what I was getting at. Given that there have been many fairly well known examples of people being killed while being 'restrained' by officers of the law, a tactically wise move might be to alert officers to that possiblility when you are being restrained independent of whether you are in fact being asphyxiated at the time.
This much I can assure you of, had the not-so-slim officer in the film actually put his weight through his knee while it rested upon the neck of the unfortunate suspect, the suspect would not have been saying anything (notwithstanding pcp use). The likely outcome would have been a crushed wind pipe, which is often fatal.
Please can we put names to the officers' faces? It will be useful for internet searching and public awareness.
This whole thing reminds me of the recent Mefi comment that someone made about life in the US. They said when they are in a take-away food line waiting with others, if a cop (or even a rent-a-cop) enters the establishment everyone gets mighty quiet. A sad endictment of a messed up society.
posted by asok at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2006
Kind of what I was getting at. Given that there have been many fairly well known examples of people being killed while being 'restrained' by officers of the law, a tactically wise move might be to alert officers to that possiblility when you are being restrained independent of whether you are in fact being asphyxiated at the time.
This much I can assure you of, had the not-so-slim officer in the film actually put his weight through his knee while it rested upon the neck of the unfortunate suspect, the suspect would not have been saying anything (notwithstanding pcp use). The likely outcome would have been a crushed wind pipe, which is often fatal.
Please can we put names to the officers' faces? It will be useful for internet searching and public awareness.
This whole thing reminds me of the recent Mefi comment that someone made about life in the US. They said when they are in a take-away food line waiting with others, if a cop (or even a rent-a-cop) enters the establishment everyone gets mighty quiet. A sad endictment of a messed up society.
posted by asok at 2:13 PM on November 11, 2006
When my wife was run over by a kid in a truck, lucking out in not killing her but instead just giving her a lifetime of pain, I did not beat the everloving shit out of the little miscreant. Oh, but did I come close, hand cocked back and bloodlust in my head.
I should think that if I can control my temper in that scenario, where the one person I love more than life has been badly injured by a careless fool, any good cop should be able to control his emotions while on the job.
The thug should be dismissed with prejudice, and held accountable for his violence. Cops can be held to the same standard as others.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:23 PM on November 11, 2006
I should think that if I can control my temper in that scenario, where the one person I love more than life has been badly injured by a careless fool, any good cop should be able to control his emotions while on the job.
The thug should be dismissed with prejudice, and held accountable for his violence. Cops can be held to the same standard as others.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:23 PM on November 11, 2006
Why do people think fighting with cops is a good idea?
I don't think thinking has anything to do with it. I think it is an instinctive response to tactics which escalate conflict..
posted by Chuckles at 2:35 PM on November 11, 2006
I don't think thinking has anything to do with it. I think it is an instinctive response to tactics which escalate conflict..
posted by Chuckles at 2:35 PM on November 11, 2006
Well said fff
Incidentally, anybody (bjj, judo, wrestling peeps fo eg.) got any idea how one might recover from the position of the suspect? Assuming all out civil war, how would you escape?
I suggest a good position to be in would be standing, shielded from baldy by the other cop and in possession of his gun by the time baldy draws his.
posted by asok at 2:52 PM on November 11, 2006
Incidentally, anybody (bjj, judo, wrestling peeps fo eg.) got any idea how one might recover from the position of the suspect? Assuming all out civil war, how would you escape?
I suggest a good position to be in would be standing, shielded from baldy by the other cop and in possession of his gun by the time baldy draws his.
posted by asok at 2:52 PM on November 11, 2006
When did MeFi become the Junior Anarchist Romper Room?
posted by keswick at 3:35 PM on November 11, 2006
posted by keswick at 3:35 PM on November 11, 2006
Sorry for your wife fff.
Sitting one's weight on the throat of a person the way the cop seems to be doing allows him to strangle the person, but also to let him breathe long enough to talk, by simply shifting weight briefly
this other video which seems to be a fragment shoot from another angle , suggests me that the officer's weight was reducing circulation of the victim head, as suggested by the red color of victim face.
posted by elpapacito at 4:19 PM on November 11, 2006
Sitting one's weight on the throat of a person the way the cop seems to be doing allows him to strangle the person, but also to let him breathe long enough to talk, by simply shifting weight briefly
this other video which seems to be a fragment shoot from another angle , suggests me that the officer's weight was reducing circulation of the victim head, as suggested by the red color of victim face.
posted by elpapacito at 4:19 PM on November 11, 2006
Alot of the comments in here are the same as second guessing troop actions in Iraq. You don't know the full story and yet you're making sweeping judgments about the cop's actions.
Cops involved in long car chases have been known to behave in totally irrational ways due to a tunnel vision effect. I'm not excusing the cop's reaction but leaping to judgment without all of the information isn't fair to the cops or the alleged perp.
fivefreshfish, I'm sorry for the harm caused to your wife and applaud your restraint.
posted by fenriq at 6:08 PM on November 11, 2006
Cops involved in long car chases have been known to behave in totally irrational ways due to a tunnel vision effect. I'm not excusing the cop's reaction but leaping to judgment without all of the information isn't fair to the cops or the alleged perp.
fivefreshfish, I'm sorry for the harm caused to your wife and applaud your restraint.
posted by fenriq at 6:08 PM on November 11, 2006
If the cops had to expect to kill or be killed every time they pulled this kind of abusive crap, maybe they'd actually quit pulling it.
AGREED!
posted by augustweed at 6:19 PM on November 11, 2006
AGREED!
posted by augustweed at 6:19 PM on November 11, 2006
I'm not excusing the cop's reaction
Actually, it sounds like you are. It sounds like you are saying that after putting the cops through a bunch of BS they get angry and then stuff happens. Yeah, they get angry. It's the stuff happens part which is the problem. They aren't allowed to take out their anger on the perps. It's against the law, and you know they are kind of charged with enforcing the law. They should be the most law abiding of all, don't you think?
posted by caddis at 6:23 PM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
Actually, it sounds like you are. It sounds like you are saying that after putting the cops through a bunch of BS they get angry and then stuff happens. Yeah, they get angry. It's the stuff happens part which is the problem. They aren't allowed to take out their anger on the perps. It's against the law, and you know they are kind of charged with enforcing the law. They should be the most law abiding of all, don't you think?
posted by caddis at 6:23 PM on November 11, 2006 [1 favorite]
Please can we put names to the officers' faces?
The officer with his knee on Cardenas's neck is named Patrick Farrell. The other officer is Alexander Schlege. (http://www.copwatchla.org/)
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:23 PM on November 11, 2006
The officer with his knee on Cardenas's neck is named Patrick Farrell. The other officer is Alexander Schlege. (http://www.copwatchla.org/)
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:23 PM on November 11, 2006
"Good. I hope you won't object if I put my knee down on your throat. And punch you repeatedly in the face while a buddy of mine is also restraining you by holding your hands. After all it's no big deal, right?"
I knew some dumbass would say something like that. I'm surprised that it took so long. And are you a cop? Was I running from the cops with a felony warrant? Was I resisting arrest? Huge difference, pal. This guy brought it upon himself. I'm smart enough to not try and outrun the cops. This genius wasn't.
Had the LAPD sprayed him with pepper spray, we'd be hearing claims of police brutality from the cop-hating blogger crowd. Heck, on indymedia, they practically scream about evil cops when one of them gets a speeding ticket.
Obviously you missed the part where I said they probably shouldn't have hit this guy. No matter, he'll get rich off of this incident at taxpayer expense. The little drama queen was breathing just fine. That's a common tactic - claim you can't breathe and then try to run for it when they loosen up on the grip. (yes, sometimes they really *can't* breathe, but this doesn't appear to be the case at all.)
How neutered do people want the police department to be, anyway?
posted by drstein at 6:29 PM on November 11, 2006
I knew some dumbass would say something like that. I'm surprised that it took so long. And are you a cop? Was I running from the cops with a felony warrant? Was I resisting arrest? Huge difference, pal. This guy brought it upon himself. I'm smart enough to not try and outrun the cops. This genius wasn't.
Had the LAPD sprayed him with pepper spray, we'd be hearing claims of police brutality from the cop-hating blogger crowd. Heck, on indymedia, they practically scream about evil cops when one of them gets a speeding ticket.
Obviously you missed the part where I said they probably shouldn't have hit this guy. No matter, he'll get rich off of this incident at taxpayer expense. The little drama queen was breathing just fine. That's a common tactic - claim you can't breathe and then try to run for it when they loosen up on the grip. (yes, sometimes they really *can't* breathe, but this doesn't appear to be the case at all.)
How neutered do people want the police department to be, anyway?
posted by drstein at 6:29 PM on November 11, 2006
That's a common tactic - claim you can't breathe and then try to run for it when they loosen up on the grip.
You are so full of shit it staggers the imagination.
posted by caddis at 6:35 PM on November 11, 2006
You are so full of shit it staggers the imagination.
posted by caddis at 6:35 PM on November 11, 2006
That's a common tactic - claim you can't breathe and then try to run for it when they loosen up on the grip.
Link? Citation? Anything?
posted by Stauf at 6:59 PM on November 11, 2006
Link? Citation? Anything?
posted by Stauf at 6:59 PM on November 11, 2006
Was I running from the cops with a felony warrant? Was I resisting arrest?
Ah, the "he deserved it" brigade. Never gets tiresome.
Here's another little drama queen, this time with rentacops. Just waiting for them to loosen their grip so he could take off. For goodness sake, they were only holding him down.
No matter, he'll get rich off of this incident at taxpayer expense.
You pay the cop's paycheck; you pay for his assault. Or in your worldview is it possible for a cop to assault someone while he's wearing the badge?
posted by dreamsign at 8:42 PM on November 11, 2006
Ah, the "he deserved it" brigade. Never gets tiresome.
Here's another little drama queen, this time with rentacops. Just waiting for them to loosen their grip so he could take off. For goodness sake, they were only holding him down.
No matter, he'll get rich off of this incident at taxpayer expense.
You pay the cop's paycheck; you pay for his assault. Or in your worldview is it possible for a cop to assault someone while he's wearing the badge?
posted by dreamsign at 8:42 PM on November 11, 2006
Yep, Asok.
I guess that´s cardiac arrest for ya.
posted by Bravocharlie at 10:01 PM on November 11, 2006
I guess that´s cardiac arrest for ya.
posted by Bravocharlie at 10:01 PM on November 11, 2006
caddis, no, I'm not excusing the officer's actions. The video is a tiny slice of the event and people are drawing conclusions based on it. Remember the lynching when Bill Frist looked at a ten minute video of Terri Schiavo and pronounced her not braindead? Its the same damned thing. You don't know what really happened. You just know what you see here. What if the cop's knew the guy was on PCP and as strong as an ox? What if the guy was a roid-monkey and had thrown one of them through a wall already? There are plenty of what if's that you can't take into account because this clip is such a small portion of what happened.
If the cops are guilty of abuse then charge them but not until there's alot more information gathered to determine if they acted without regard for the law they are sworn to uphold and enforce.
These short clips are incendiary for a reason, they show one side of what happened without regard for the other actions leading up to it. Basing your conclusion on partial information is wrong and I choose not to condemn someone without more complete info. Sorry if that makes me a cop apologist but I'd rather be sure first.
posted by fenriq at 12:41 AM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
If the cops are guilty of abuse then charge them but not until there's alot more information gathered to determine if they acted without regard for the law they are sworn to uphold and enforce.
These short clips are incendiary for a reason, they show one side of what happened without regard for the other actions leading up to it. Basing your conclusion on partial information is wrong and I choose not to condemn someone without more complete info. Sorry if that makes me a cop apologist but I'd rather be sure first.
posted by fenriq at 12:41 AM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Had the LAPD sprayed him with pepper spray, we'd be hearing claims of police brutality from the cop-hating blogger crowd."
But they didn't spray him with pepper spray; they punched him in the face multiple times after they already had him down. And perhaps questionaing and investigating this matter is a good thing. If those cops are innocent and were just following standard proceedure, then they've got nothing to fear, right?
posted by dazed_one at 3:13 AM on November 12, 2006
But they didn't spray him with pepper spray; they punched him in the face multiple times after they already had him down. And perhaps questionaing and investigating this matter is a good thing. If those cops are innocent and were just following standard proceedure, then they've got nothing to fear, right?
posted by dazed_one at 3:13 AM on November 12, 2006
They did use pepper spray on him.
With Cardenas still resisting, one officer used pepper spray on him, but that had “little effect,” the report said.
The punches was just extra seasoning.
posted by Bravocharlie at 3:32 AM on November 12, 2006
With Cardenas still resisting, one officer used pepper spray on him, but that had “little effect,” the report said.
The punches was just extra seasoning.
posted by Bravocharlie at 3:32 AM on November 12, 2006
What if the cop's knew the guy was on PCP and as strong as an ox? What if the guy was a roid-monkey and had thrown one of them through a wall already?
Neither of these would justify punching in the face a suspect already pinned to the ground.
posted by caddis at 5:54 AM on November 12, 2006
Neither of these would justify punching in the face a suspect already pinned to the ground.
posted by caddis at 5:54 AM on November 12, 2006
caddis, the point is that you don't have all the info. Basing your conclusion on partial information is sloppy and premature.
posted by fenriq at 7:10 AM on November 12, 2006
posted by fenriq at 7:10 AM on November 12, 2006
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posted by Joeforking at 12:44 AM on November 11, 2006