ethnic cleansing and racism
November 30, 2006 2:28 PM Subscribe

ethnic cleansing from the Balkans to Israel the policies of ethnic cleansing employed by the Nazis are used against the Palestinians.
posted by hard rain (85 comments total)

This post was deleted for the following reason: Middle EAST LEBANON ISRAEL PALESTINE - please don't do this here.

Where's the "wendell" tag?
posted by koeselitz at 2:33 PM on November 30, 2006

Oh, this will end well.
posted by joseph_elmhurst at 2:35 PM on November 30, 2006

Uh, no, they're not.

Agh, the tinfoil hats, they do nothing!
posted by CynicalKnight at 2:38 PM on November 30, 2006

You Godwined yourself! *points and laughs*
posted by randomination at 2:41 PM on November 30, 2006

do you mean to say that there's trouble in the middle east?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:42 PM on November 30, 2006

What an embarrassing post.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 2:43 PM on November 30, 2006

Okay, looking at your posting history, hard rain, I assume you're just provincial about this issue, not actually malicious or weird. So here's one of the silly claims in this article; maybe you can help me with it:

"Without such discourse -- in which the Zionists movement depicted the original inhabitants of Palestine as cancerous, subhuman and a nuisance in the face of civilisation and progress -- it would not have been possible to carry out a systematic campaign of murder and ethnic cleansing in 1947- 48."

I'd really like it if someone could show me evidence of this. The idea that "Zionism is racism" is ridiculous, especially in regard to early and mid-20th century Zionism. This guy throws around the phrase "ethnic cleansing" like there's no tomorrow.
posted by koeselitz at 2:46 PM on November 30, 2006

i got your ethnic cleansing right here!
posted by pyramid termite at 2:48 PM on November 30, 2006 [3 favorites]

Oh for the image tag...
posted by LarryC at 2:54 PM on November 30, 2006

I'd like to know how the term "ethnic cleansing" even came into general use. What a euphemism.
posted by spock at 2:55 PM on November 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

Or we could just play last post. Because this is the last post you know. No other post will come after this one.
posted by LarryC at 2:55 PM on November 30, 2006

Previous posts indicate I'm the William H. fucking Macy of FPP coolers.
posted by boo_radley at 2:59 PM on November 30, 2006

***.----`o o'***
`__' ____ .:. ___
***'''**''*****
MONORAIL CAT
posted by randomination at 2:59 PM on November 30, 2006

Except this one.

Look, hard rain, this guy doesn't sound so very bad. But this article is crap-- it's vague, it's full of scare words and big talking, and it never really says anything. This-- the train wreck in this thread-- is what happens when people post unintelligent and inflammatory stuff like this.
posted by koeselitz at 3:01 PM on November 30, 2006

Yes, but can the vibrator sense when the bass needs boosted?
posted by YoBananaBoy at 3:04 PM on November 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

Whoops, wrong thread
posted by YoBananaBoy at 3:04 PM on November 30, 2006

HELD WELL SLIT WIN
posted by clevershark at 3:06 PM on November 30, 2006

Jimmy Carter has a new book out on the problems there, and he speaks of Apartheid--i think that's more fitting. Israelis are horrendous towards the Palestinians but aren't out to eliminate them from the face of the Earth, nor from what most consider to be Israeli land. Nor are they trying to get the Israeli Arabs out of Israel proper.

The land grabs and walls and checkpoints are absolutely appalling and disgusting and dehumanizing tho.
posted by amberglow at 3:06 PM on November 30, 2006

a hard rain's a gonna fall.
posted by fugitivefromchaingang at 3:09 PM on November 30, 2006

I remember ethnic cleansing before it became cool. Palestinians never did look clean to me, and I've only recently been introduced to hygienic looking Jews. Hot showers and soap is the only solution.
posted by econous at 3:09 PM on November 30, 2006

Ethnic cleansing is the polite way to say "vicious slaughtering genocide" these days. But the Israelis aren't engaging in that.
posted by zoogleplex at 3:12 PM on November 30, 2006

im in ur land stealing ur water
posted by matteo at 3:13 PM on November 30, 2006 [2 favorites]

Benny Morris has made the case that the current problems in Palestine stem not from "ethnic cleansing" but from half-assed ethnic cleansing. There were obvious and flagrant attempts to drive Palestinians out. But, given recent experiences in E.Europe, there was insufficient will on the part of Ben Gurion & co. to give the Irgun-types free rein. So you were left with a refugee population and an angry, still resident population: a perfect recipe for intifadah.

Oh, and this post is crap.
posted by felix betachat at 3:13 PM on November 30, 2006

Survival of the Fittest, Ari Shavit's interview with Benny Morris in Haaretz, Sept 1, 2004.
posted by felix betachat at 3:17 PM on November 30, 2006

While so many seem aware of the Arab refugee plight, and blame it all upon theIsraelis, it is seldom noted that as many and prhaps more Jews were "clensed" --driven out--of Arab lands in 1948 or thereabouts.For which,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
700 thousand plus Jews expelled, homeless, everything confiscated by Arabs
posted by Postroad at 3:19 PM on November 30, 2006

Flagged (single-link op-ed). Also, the linked op-ed doesn't compare Israel to Nazi Germany.

--
Other items from Al-Ahram Weekly (a mainstream Egyptian newspaper):

Hopeful but sceptical - on the shaky truce

Third time lucky? - negotiations in Cairo

Hamas's Cairo messages - Khaled Mashaal visits Cairo

I thought these were interesting because they're reported from an Arab perspective.

--
Benny Morris assesses war crimes committed during the Arab-Israeli wars.
posted by russilwvong at 3:22 PM on November 30, 2006

"Zionist colonization, even the most restricted, must either be terminated or carried out in defiance of the will of the native [Palestinian] population. This colonization can, therefore, continue and develop under the protection of a force independent of the local population --an iron wall which the native [Palestinian] population cannot break through. This is, in to, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy."Jabotinsky
posted by hard rain at 3:22 PM on November 30, 2006

hard rain: the policy employed by Nazi Germany towards the Jews was extermination, not expulsion.
posted by russilwvong at 3:24 PM on November 30, 2006

"Arabs will participate on an equal footing throughout all sectors of the country's public life....In every cabinet where the prime minister is a Jew, the vice-premiership shall be offered to an Arab and vice versa....". Jabotinsky

bevets? is that you?
posted by felix betachat at 3:25 PM on November 30, 2006

Zing! Three minutes! Damn, felix!

Also, I don't see "racism" or "ethnic cleansing" in the Jabotinsky quote, hard rain. I see a lot of things, but not those things.
posted by koeselitz at 3:29 PM on November 30, 2006

HITLER.

Can we go now?
posted by languagehat at 3:32 PM on November 30, 2006

*blows smoke from revolver*
posted by felix betachat at 3:32 PM on November 30, 2006

aw, languagehat, pull up a chair. Your measured, stentorian tones are precisely what this trainwreck needs.
posted by felix betachat at 3:32 PM on November 30, 2006

They serve in the Israeli army.

it's a pretty generic turn of phrase -- please tell us more about those IDF Arabs, let's see if you're ignorant or a liar
posted by matteo at 3:33 PM on November 30, 2006

*takes shit*
posted by Falconetti at 3:34 PM on November 30, 2006

let's talk about how fat people are fat because they have no self control and how much macs really suck, and perhaps even how great it is to drive a hummer.
posted by caddis at 3:37 PM on November 30, 2006

HITLER.

Can we go now?
posted by languagehat at 5:32 PM

Just when you think a thing can't get any more clever, well, there it is.
posted by interrobang at 3:39 PM on November 30, 2006

Yosef Mishlav hates the fatties.
posted by felix betachat at 3:41 PM on November 30, 2006

Does anyone know why some people got to become Israeli Arabs and the rest Palestinians and non-citizens? Was it self-selecting or what?
posted by amberglow at 3:47 PM on November 30, 2006

languagehat:

HITLER.

Can we go now?

I thought Godwin was only invoked if something was referenced to being like the Nazi party or Hitler, not just the words 'Nazi' or 'Hitler' by themselves. That said,

languagehat, in many respects, you are just like Hitler. And I can draw strong comparisons between Metafilter and the Nazi party as well!

Can we go now?
posted by quin at 3:52 PM on November 30, 2006

Does anyone know why some people got to become Israeli Arabs and the rest Palestinians and non-citizens?

the israelis made them count off ... "ones" became israeli arabs, "twos" became palestinians and "threes" became non-citizens
posted by pyramid termite at 3:54 PM on November 30, 2006

amberglow: Does anyone know why some people got to become Israeli Arabs and the rest Palestinians and non-citizens? Was it self-selecting or what?

Arabs within the 1948 borders became Israeli citizens. Arabs within the territories occupied in the 1967 war (the West Bank and Gaza) did not. Wikipedia.
posted by russilwvong at 3:54 PM on November 30, 2006

The big problem with any "ethnic cleansing" claim about Israel is that it ignores all the Arabs who are currently Israeli citizens. They vote. They have their own political party. They hold many seats in the Knesset.

...and nevetheless they have a snowball's chance in Hell of ever getting into a cabinet. Unlike some of the nuttiest politico-religious-nationalist fruitcakes this side of Lyndon LaRouche.

They serve in the Israeli army.

And all this time I thought that Israel didn't have an army , but a "defence force"... Anyway, what you say doesn't entirely reflect the reality.

Now, let me be perfectly clear: by Godwinising Israel, hard rain is being a total arse, and this post has been very rightly flagged. As russilvwong tersely but accurately put it, the policy employed by Nazi Germany towards the Jews was extermination, not expulsion.

However, I am of the opinion that Zionism is a racist doctrine. I find the idea of a "Jewish state" just as abhorrent as that of a "white state" (or an Arab or a black state, for that matter). Linking race and statehood is simply asking for trouble. Moreover, the segmentation of the West Bank by Israel's settlement policy reminds me horribly of the "bantustans" of South Africa.
posted by Skeptic at 3:55 PM on November 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

DON'T TRY TO SHUT DOWN MY LEGITIMATE CRITICISM OF ISRAEL WITH ACCUSATIONS OF ANTISEMITISM!!!111
posted by Krrrlson at 3:57 PM on November 30, 2006

Where's the "wendell" tag?
posted by koeselitz

Don't I get a say in this?

THIS WILL NOT END WELL = WENDELL TOLLS WITHIN

Previous posts indicate I'm the William H. fucking Macy of FPP coolers.
posted by boo_radley

Sorry, boo, but I was the ORIGINAL MeFi Thread Killer, and even invoking my name in the first comment couldn't stop this train wreck.

But then, I am fat because I have no self control.
posted by wendell at 4:00 PM on November 30, 2006

I LIKE PUPPIES.

like, not love.
posted by damn dirty ape at 4:01 PM on November 30, 2006

Does anyone know why some people got to become Israeli Arabs and the rest Palestinians and non-citizens? Was it self-selecting or what?

It has to do with geography, positions taken up by the Arab armies, the strength of certain towns in terms of leadership and weapons (in other words, some towns were able to defend themselves and hold their ground), and specific plans by the Zionists to ensure that certain strategic towns were destroyed. All over Israel you can find former Arab villages, often not far from existing Arab-Israeli towns, which were emptied and bulldozed. Old people know where they are and can show you the places where the smaller villages once stood, and there is usally one or two old stone buildings remaining.
posted by cell divide at 4:03 PM on November 30, 2006

Skeptic: Linking race and statehood is simply asking for trouble.

As I've said before: what alternative did they have?
posted by russilwvong at 4:03 PM on November 30, 2006

Skeptic: "However, I am of the opinion that Zionism is a racist doctrine."

Then you don't know much about the philosophy of Zionism. Go read Hertzl, then move on to the previously-quoted Jabotinsky, and up from there. Or better yet, ask Felix about it, as he seems to have a better handle on these things than anybody else here.
posted by koeselitz at 4:05 PM on November 30, 2006

However, I am of the opinion that Zionism is a racist doctrine. I find the idea of a "Jewish state" just as abhorrent as that of a "white state" (or an Arab or a black state, for that matter). Linking race and statehood is simply asking for trouble.

Judaism is a religion, not a race.
posted by IronLizard at 4:05 PM on November 30, 2006

Was it self-selecting or what?

I thought it was a result of where you happened to be standing in 1948.
posted by pompomtom at 4:08 PM on November 30, 2006

However, I am of the opinion that Zionism is a racist doctrine. I find the idea of a "Jewish state" just as abhorrent as that of a "white state" (or an Arab or a black state, for that matter). Linking race and statehood is simply asking for trouble. Moreover, the segmentation of the West Bank by Israel's settlement policy reminds me horribly of the "bantustans" of South Africa.

That's cool. You're aware, though, that Judaism isn't a race, right?

Did you know that there are Ethiopian, Azeri, Mexican, Argentinian, French, Iraqi, Yemenite and Chicagoan Jews (just to name a few). And that, since Ehud Barak began bringing in guest workers from the Philipines and S.E. Asia, you begin to find Asians who are converting to Judaism and making aliyah as well.
posted by felix betachat at 4:09 PM on November 30, 2006

you begin to find Asians who are converting to Judaism and making aliyah as well.

And immediately they have more rights, access to better schools/health care/insurance/jobs/treatment/sewer systems/etc. then people who can trace their family roots back 900 years!

I think this is the central problem with creating a state around, if not a race, then a specific identity. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's always, always going to be problematic.
posted by cell divide at 4:10 PM on November 30, 2006

Judaism is a religion, not a race.

And, yet, I don't think that the Law of Return specifies that returning Jews actually practice Judaism...

Anyway, linking religion and statehood is, if anything, an even worse idea...
posted by Skeptic at 4:13 PM on November 30, 2006

I think this is the central problem with creating a state around, if not a race, then a specific identity.

You're about a century too late, my friend. There were many assimilated Jews in Europe who would have agreed with you wholeheartedly.
posted by felix betachat at 4:13 PM on November 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

zionism is a form of colonialism does anyone really doubt that? And to colonize anyone means - quite simply - to treat the people who are colonized as inferior people and finally to construct an ideology that justifies that position. French in Algeria; Boers in South Africa; the British in India; and the American Colonialists vs. Native Americas... basic history folks. Get-a-grip. The world isn't flat.
posted by hard rain at 4:20 PM on November 30, 2006

And immediately they have more rights, access to better schools/health care/insurance/jobs/treatment/sewer systems/etc. then people who can trace their family roots back 900 years!

Oh, and this is untrue, actually. Guest workers in Israel have a terrible time of it. If you want an extremely harrowing look at the plight of the contemporary immigrant in the State of Israel, dig up a copy of Eyal Halfon's film Eizeh Makom Nifla (What a Wonderful Place). I know it's been subtitled in English. It's a pretty stark condemnation of racial politics in the post-Zionist state.
posted by felix betachat at 4:20 PM on November 30, 2006

You're about a century too late, my friend. There were many assimilated Jews in Europe who would have agreed with you wholeheartedly.

And yet, felix, the irony is that Jews living in Germany nowadays probably live rather safer lives than those in Israel (never mind the West Bank).
posted by Skeptic at 4:22 PM on November 30, 2006

But you said if they make aliyah, at which point they aren't guest workers but citizens with full rights, and access to everything that Jews have access to in Israel.
posted by cell divide at 4:23 PM on November 30, 2006

And yet, felix, the irony is that Jews living in Germany nowadays probably live rather safer lives than those in Israel (never mind the West Bank).

Well, yeah. But those in the former Soviet Union and France are leaving in droves. Start trying to repatriate the descendants of Ashkenazim in Eastern Europe and Germany and you'll see a dramatic change there too.

And don't even get me started about Jewish emigrants from Muslim countries.
posted by felix betachat at 4:34 PM on November 30, 2006

hard rain: zionism is a form of colonialism does anyone really doubt that?

Your original statement was: the policies of ethnic cleansing employed by the Nazis are used against the Palestinians. The Nazi policy wasn't colonialism, it was extermination.
posted by russilwvong at 4:38 PM on November 30, 2006

oh, and hard rain, you're from Budapest, right? Why don't you take a little walk around town and then come back and give us your lecture on colonialism.
posted by felix betachat at 4:39 PM on November 30, 2006

lsat psot!!
posted by pyramid termite at 4:44 PM on November 30, 2006

"zionism is a form of colonialism does anyone really doubt that?"

I thought that said cannibalism.

Which is another post entirely.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:45 PM on November 30, 2006

Will this end? Well?
posted by trip and a half at 4:47 PM on November 30, 2006

You know who else liked ethnic cleansing?

Well, yeah, Hitler, but you said that already.
posted by Pollomacho at 4:49 PM on November 30, 2006

ARABS ARE SEMITES TOO!
posted by Artw at 4:55 PM on November 30, 2006

Also: HITLER WAS A PUSSY COMPARED WITH STALIN!
posted by Artw at 4:56 PM on November 30, 2006

Empire seizes control of Western Religion, creates religious nation-state, imprisons and expells original inhabitants, erects giant wall and beats up little kids.

Am I getting this right?

Israel is teh suxxors.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 4:56 PM on November 30, 2006

"zionism is a form of colonialism does anyone really doubt that?"

I thought that said cannibalism.

Which is another post entirely.

You're thinking of the Roman Catholic thread.
posted by ODiV at 4:58 PM on November 30, 2006

Also: Actually I think the brown Zune looks quite stylish.
posted by Artw at 5:01 PM on November 30, 2006

The Roman Catholics are oppressing Palestinians too? I bet Mel Gibson's involved.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:13 PM on November 30, 2006

hard rain -

The problem with this post isn't that there aren't quite legitimate things for which we can criticise Israel. Lots.

The problem is that by framing the debate as Israel=Nazis, because they are clearly not as bad as the Nazis (I'm not aware of any cases of gassing the Palestinians, for instance), then the debate becomes about how bigoted criticising Israel is.

I'd recommend in future, if you want to debate Israel/Palestinian politics to try and do it from a more neutral POV (to use a wikipedianism), and get off the soapbox.

People will be more open to a healthy debate about the whole thing.

< /2 cents>
posted by MythMaker at 5:21 PM on November 30, 2006

And, hard rain, punctuation is appreciated around here.
posted by beagle at 5:28 PM on November 30, 2006

i'm with felix betachat. And I wouldn't say that jews have an all better and safer life in germany these days despite the immigration numbers of former SU residents are higher than those into Israel.

Sure, no threat of war and suicide-bombing, but a never-decreasing antisemitism (recent polls showed that 40% of the popoulation harbour antisemitic views) and violence commmited by nazi-skinheads and/or youths of arab/palestinian descent.
posted by kolophon at 5:30 PM on November 30, 2006

I have half a mind to post Britney's vagina right now.
posted by found missing at 5:34 PM on November 30, 2006

Well, yeah. But those in the former Soviet Union and France are leaving in droves.

There may be some anti-semites in France, but the idea that France is more dangerous then Israel is a bit silly.

But lets think about this realistically, Judaism is not a race, right? but do people who convert to Judaism actually gain the right right to move to Israel? And even then, converting to Judaism isn't like converting to Christianity, or Buddhism, or Islam. And people who are not religious still call themselves "jews". It's like a quasi race.

Anyway, what is a "Race" anyway? should every self-determined group be able to claim the moral right to certain land based on ancestry and subsequently take it by force? If so then you ought to have no problem with Palistinean and Arab attempts to expel the jews from Israel.

Regardless of the situation in the 1940s and 50s, I don't think that Jewish people need or deserve any special protection today
posted by delmoi at 5:36 PM on November 30, 2006

"Ethnic cleansing"? Oh, you mean what's going on with Arabs on black folks in Darfur, right?
posted by worbid411 at 5:39 PM on November 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

Wait a second here, now that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has gotten all web-savvy, has anyone considered that Ahmadinejad == hard rain? HAVE YOU???
posted by found missing at 5:43 PM on November 30, 2006

> You're aware, though, that Judaism isn't a race, right?

Doesn't make a bit of difference. Anything we don't like is racism. I mean, duh!
posted by jfuller at 5:45 PM on November 30, 2006

> You're aware, though, that Judaism isn't a race, right?

is that why nike doesn't sponsor them?
posted by pyramid termite at 5:47 PM on November 30, 2006 [1 favorite]

Um. If you say so. Also These guys, and these who said this: 2. THE HOMELAND The homeland in the Land of Israel within the borders delineated in the Bible ("To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18). And as for ethnic cleansing... Or did you mean to say "a lot of youngish secular middle-class sabras in Tel Aviv ain't like them Begin fans"?

And wordbid411, by all means I don't mean to say that ethnic cleansing can be done only by Jews. It was pretty near perfected in America by English-speaking Protestant Christians from Britain; compared to us the Arabs, Nazis and Zionists are pikers.
posted by davy at 5:49 PM on November 30, 2006

Israel was intended to be a little loyal jewish Ulster. Who knew that would end up creating a country overflowing with obsessive trance DJs?
posted by meehawl at 5:53 PM on November 30, 2006

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