And it is time for those who talk about family values to start valuing families. -- John Kerry
November 26, 2010 3:41 AM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: This is not a good post for metafilter -- vacapinta
Not that I'm some ardent pro-life nut, but it's also worth adding that her unborn child - she was 18 weeks pregnant - died too, of course. A double tragedy in my book.
posted by MuffinMan at 4:00 AM on November 26, 2010
posted by MuffinMan at 4:00 AM on November 26, 2010
Too depressing.
You could argue that her death was not connected to her incarceration, but either ways you've got a litany of ridiculousness that's ended with a pregnant woman unfairly dying in prison.
I don't know what laws were invoked that stated if she had sex she'd be locked up, but these laws are at best medieval. It amazes me that it's even possible in the modern western world to limit people in this way.
posted by seanyboy at 4:05 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
You could argue that her death was not connected to her incarceration, but either ways you've got a litany of ridiculousness that's ended with a pregnant woman unfairly dying in prison.
I don't know what laws were invoked that stated if she had sex she'd be locked up, but these laws are at best medieval. It amazes me that it's even possible in the modern western world to limit people in this way.
posted by seanyboy at 4:05 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
Guards aren't doctors. Any time a prisoner has a health complaint, someone with proper medical training, not someone trained to herd people from cage to cage, ought to have to examine the prisoner, decide what to do next, and sign off on that decision.
posted by pracowity at 4:09 AM on November 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 4:09 AM on November 26, 2010 [4 favorites]
seanyboy: You could argue that her death was not connected to her incarceration, but either ways you've got a litany of ridiculousness that's ended with a pregnant woman unfairly dying in prison.
More worrying from a larger public policy POV, you've got a litany of ridiculousness that leads to a woman being in jail in the first place because she got pregnant. WTFF?
posted by DarlingBri at 4:13 AM on November 26, 2010
More worrying from a larger public policy POV, you've got a litany of ridiculousness that leads to a woman being in jail in the first place because she got pregnant. WTFF?
posted by DarlingBri at 4:13 AM on November 26, 2010
I think it's really twisting words to say that she was jailed because she became pregnant. She was jailed for shoplifting and for prostitution, but they agreed to let her out on probation as long as she followed the terms of that agreement. To quote one of the comments:
posted by Rhomboid at 4:14 AM on November 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
When people live in halfway-houses they are only allowed to leave for approved reasons (ie to find a job, work, etc). The reason she was put back in to the prison system was not because she was pregnant, but because the pregnancy was proof positive that she had been violating the terms of her probation by using the time away from the halfway house for unapproved purposes (ie sex).If she had returned to the halfway house visibly intoxicated the same thing probably would have happened, but I don't think anyone would have tried to claim that she was jailed for drinking beer. Or if she did a million other things that violate the rules of the probation agreement, such as not checking in on time with her PO ("jailed for tardiness!") or for associating with known felons ("jailed for friendship!"). That's not to say that this in any way excuses her awful treatment while in custody.
posted by Rhomboid at 4:14 AM on November 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
...but because the pregnancy was proof positive that she had been violating the terms of her probation by using the time away from the halfway house for unapproved purposes (ie sex)...
Wow I bet lots of people (including Jerry Springer!) would love to get their hands on this newfangled pregnancy test that can tell exactly, down to the minute, when conception has occurred. I imagine that's what they used to figure out that her pregnancy started when she was away from the halfway house.
posted by tractorfeed at 4:19 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
Wow I bet lots of people (including Jerry Springer!) would love to get their hands on this newfangled pregnancy test that can tell exactly, down to the minute, when conception has occurred. I imagine that's what they used to figure out that her pregnancy started when she was away from the halfway house.
posted by tractorfeed at 4:19 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
That article talks about "no-sexual-contact conditions for work release" rather than something specific to pregnancy. Not that I'd be surprised if there was a law targeting women's sexuality, but I wonder if this could be a law that's actually targeted at men who commit rape or other sexual offenses while on work release.
posted by XMLicious at 4:19 AM on November 26, 2010
That article talks about "no-sexual-contact conditions for work release" rather than something specific to pregnancy. Not that I'd be surprised if there was a law targeting women's sexuality, but I wonder if this could be a law that's actually targeted at men who commit rape or other sexual offenses while on work release.
posted by XMLicious at 4:19 AM on November 26, 2010
(And that's not to imply that I think the highly unbalanced nature of parole agreements are in any way fair, either. Just that in this case it didn't have anything to do with the act of getting pregnant per se, but rather for leaving the house for unapproved purposes.)
posted by Rhomboid at 4:19 AM on November 26, 2010
posted by Rhomboid at 4:19 AM on November 26, 2010
but I wonder if this could be a law that's actually targeted at men who commit rape or other sexual offenses while on work release
Surely those things could be prevented by having a rule that targets anyone who commits a felony while on work release?
This is so depressing on all levels: she shouldn't have been jailed for shoplifting; prostitution shouldn't even be a crime; she shouldn't then be punished for having sex or being pregnant (whichever you choose); and she should have been given medical treatment in jail.
Damn.
posted by Infinite Jest at 4:23 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
Surely those things could be prevented by having a rule that targets anyone who commits a felony while on work release?
This is so depressing on all levels: she shouldn't have been jailed for shoplifting; prostitution shouldn't even be a crime; she shouldn't then be punished for having sex or being pregnant (whichever you choose); and she should have been given medical treatment in jail.
Damn.
posted by Infinite Jest at 4:23 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
figure out that her pregnancy started when she was away from the halfway house
If the halfway house is unisex and visitors aren't allowed, then doesn't that strongly imply sexual contact occurred while she was outside of the house?
posted by Rhomboid at 4:24 AM on November 26, 2010
If the halfway house is unisex and visitors aren't allowed, then doesn't that strongly imply sexual contact occurred while she was outside of the house?
posted by Rhomboid at 4:24 AM on November 26, 2010
She was jailed for shoplifting and for prostitution
And this fact adds to how awful the situation is. She stole some shampoo, some steak and $110.00 of jewellery. Major League criminal.
I bet people abuse the "approved purposes" thing all the time. I bet people loiter on their way back, or pop in to see friends or do all sorts of things. Approved purposes is a way to stop people going out and doing illegal stuff. It's strongly worded, but I bet there's leeway on the ground floor. She got no leeway. She had sex and got the book thrown at her.
If she hadn't got pregnant, she wouldn't have gone to prison. That's disgusting.
posted by seanyboy at 4:29 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
And this fact adds to how awful the situation is. She stole some shampoo, some steak and $110.00 of jewellery. Major League criminal.
I bet people abuse the "approved purposes" thing all the time. I bet people loiter on their way back, or pop in to see friends or do all sorts of things. Approved purposes is a way to stop people going out and doing illegal stuff. It's strongly worded, but I bet there's leeway on the ground floor. She got no leeway. She had sex and got the book thrown at her.
If she hadn't got pregnant, she wouldn't have gone to prison. That's disgusting.
posted by seanyboy at 4:29 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
Rhomboid: The reason she was put back in to the prison system was not because she was pregnant, but because the pregnancy was proof positive that she had been violating the terms of her probation by using the time away from the halfway house for unapproved purposes (ie sex).
Yeah fine but the issue is: that's discriminatory. You cannot produce "proof positive" that a male probationer has broken the same terms of the same probation order.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:35 AM on November 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
Yeah fine but the issue is: that's discriminatory. You cannot produce "proof positive" that a male probationer has broken the same terms of the same probation order.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:35 AM on November 26, 2010 [3 favorites]
Which is to say that for shoplifting less than $200 worth of merchandise and using her own body as she saw fit, the state robbed her of the right to make her own reproductive choices.
Fascinating how "the state" is becoming the boogeyman of the right and the left. If the government is not sexually assaulting you and infringing on your constitutional rights at the airport, he's denying you your own reproductive choices somewhere else. It is becoming harder to discern a difference between the two opposing narratives where it is always "the state" who is to blame.
posted by three blind mice at 4:36 AM on November 26, 2010
Fascinating how "the state" is becoming the boogeyman of the right and the left. If the government is not sexually assaulting you and infringing on your constitutional rights at the airport, he's denying you your own reproductive choices somewhere else. It is becoming harder to discern a difference between the two opposing narratives where it is always "the state" who is to blame.
posted by three blind mice at 4:36 AM on November 26, 2010
Surely those things could be prevented by having a rule that targets anyone who commits a felony while on work release?
But then they'd actually have to be convicted of the felony before anything could be done; I would think that a standard covering any sexual activity at all would make it more possible to yank a rapist or other sex offender back into jail immediately rather than wait out litigation... all totally hypothetical of course, the links we have at this point are rather light on references and important details.
posted by XMLicious at 4:38 AM on November 26, 2010
That linked article seemed free from bias and agenda and I'm sure that we have all the information needed to discuss the situation objectively.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:42 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:42 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
County Sued Over Death of Pregnant Inmate (Pittsburgh Post-Gazette)
Pregnant Inmate Dies, Family Sues County Jail (CBS Pittsburgh)
posted by HopperFan at 4:52 AM on November 26, 2010
Pregnant Inmate Dies, Family Sues County Jail (CBS Pittsburgh)
posted by HopperFan at 4:52 AM on November 26, 2010
As soon as I read this I thought about Hiu Lui Ng, the 34-year-old man who had come to New York from Hong Kong with his family at 17, become a computer engineer, married an American, had two children, overstayed his visa, gone to sort it out, and been detained, only to die in ICE custody of liver cancer, his spine fractured, both conditions undiagnosed and untreated until days before his death. And indeed, what the US government did to him is the subject of one of the links in this article, along with even more stories I didn't want to know about either but will never be able to forget.
I doubt that there is anything anyone could ever do that would justify any of this kind of treatment, but still can't help but notice that both Hiu Lui Ng and Amy Lee Gillespie did essentially nothing in any case - not only to deserve the horrific deaths their captors made them die, but to deserve being locked up in the first place. Then, why are we doing this? When will our governments understand what a serious thing it is to steal and waste people's freedom? When will we all understand what a grave responsibility we have to the people whose freedom we have taken away?
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 4:53 AM on November 26, 2010
I doubt that there is anything anyone could ever do that would justify any of this kind of treatment, but still can't help but notice that both Hiu Lui Ng and Amy Lee Gillespie did essentially nothing in any case - not only to deserve the horrific deaths their captors made them die, but to deserve being locked up in the first place. Then, why are we doing this? When will our governments understand what a serious thing it is to steal and waste people's freedom? When will we all understand what a grave responsibility we have to the people whose freedom we have taken away?
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 4:53 AM on November 26, 2010
Also, if any of the people responsible for this is planning on celebrating the virgin birth of Jesus Christ next month, I hope they choke on a sugar plum and, well.
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 4:59 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 4:59 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
When will we all understand what a grave responsibility we have to the people whose freedom we have taken away?
Probably around the time when wealthy people have to go to jail with the rest of us instead of buying their way out. Until then tax cuts will be a more appropriate use of society's resources.
posted by XMLicious at 5:08 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
You could argue that her death was not connected to her incarceration,
Not really.
This is actually the second time in the past few months I've read about someone (in fact a woman) dying in an AZ jail. The last one was someone who died of heat exhaustion while waiting to be released.. The holding cell was 107 degrees.
posted by delmoi at 5:29 AM on November 26, 2010
Not really.
This is actually the second time in the past few months I've read about someone (in fact a woman) dying in an AZ jail. The last one was someone who died of heat exhaustion while waiting to be released.. The holding cell was 107 degrees.
posted by delmoi at 5:29 AM on November 26, 2010
That linked article seemed free from bias and agenda and I'm sure that we have all the information needed to discuss the situation objectively.What possible information could we be missing that would make this OK?
posted by delmoi at 5:31 AM on November 26, 2010
Yeah fine but the issue is: that's discriminatory. You cannot produce "proof positive" that a male probationer has broken the same terms of the same probation order.
Sure you can. By his own admission, by his partner's admission, paternity test if his partner becomes pregnant , third party witness, photograph, etc., etc.
There are lots of ways to prove a man had sex, and if that violates the rules of his half-way house, he gets kicked out, and if he is required to be in a half-way house by his probation, he goes to jail.
It really sucks this woman died, and I think it could have been prevented. I think they have a case for neglect by the corrections staff overseeing her care. However, she didn't go to jail for getting pregnant, and that's a shitty thing to twist into this incident for the author to push a personal agenda.
posted by Menthol at 6:02 AM on November 26, 2010
Sure you can. By his own admission, by his partner's admission, paternity test if his partner becomes pregnant , third party witness, photograph, etc., etc.
There are lots of ways to prove a man had sex, and if that violates the rules of his half-way house, he gets kicked out, and if he is required to be in a half-way house by his probation, he goes to jail.
It really sucks this woman died, and I think it could have been prevented. I think they have a case for neglect by the corrections staff overseeing her care. However, she didn't go to jail for getting pregnant, and that's a shitty thing to twist into this incident for the author to push a personal agenda.
posted by Menthol at 6:02 AM on November 26, 2010
What possible information could we be missing that would make this OK?
He was probably commenting more on the fact the article was inflammatory (much like this single link post) and had a hysterical tone in its complete and utter blame of the government.
That this woman died is horrible of course, especially since it sounds like it could have been prevented. But there doesn't seem to be a detailed report yet and I'm hesitant to think this is grand government or patriarchal censure of human or specifically women's rights. It sounds like it just man be a chain of stupidity piled on stupidity. I'm also wondering if the woman knew that not getting pregnant was a condition of the alternative housing. She was assigned there in February of 2009. When she died, on Jan 1 2010, she was 18 weeks pregnant, so it's clear she did indeed get pregnant while at the halfway house, which typically forbids anyone in the house of having sex while there.
As to the argument that punishing her for getting pregnant is discriminatory, since males could go have sex and get someone else pregnant and escape obvious detection that they had sex, would do the proponents of the discrimination argument suggest should be done?
The sad irony is that had she gone to jail instead of the halfway house, she probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant and would still be alive.
posted by nomadicink at 6:10 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
He was probably commenting more on the fact the article was inflammatory (much like this single link post) and had a hysterical tone in its complete and utter blame of the government.
That this woman died is horrible of course, especially since it sounds like it could have been prevented. But there doesn't seem to be a detailed report yet and I'm hesitant to think this is grand government or patriarchal censure of human or specifically women's rights. It sounds like it just man be a chain of stupidity piled on stupidity. I'm also wondering if the woman knew that not getting pregnant was a condition of the alternative housing. She was assigned there in February of 2009. When she died, on Jan 1 2010, she was 18 weeks pregnant, so it's clear she did indeed get pregnant while at the halfway house, which typically forbids anyone in the house of having sex while there.
As to the argument that punishing her for getting pregnant is discriminatory, since males could go have sex and get someone else pregnant and escape obvious detection that they had sex, would do the proponents of the discrimination argument suggest should be done?
The sad irony is that had she gone to jail instead of the halfway house, she probably wouldn't have gotten pregnant and would still be alive.
posted by nomadicink at 6:10 AM on November 26, 2010 [1 favorite]
Sure you can. By his own admission, by his partner's admission, paternity test if his partner becomes pregnant , third party witness, photograph, etc., etc.
This is bullshit false equivalency.
In a minor criminal case like this, no one's going to be spending the time and money seeking admissions, doing paternity tests, photographing anyone, etc. Basically, the only way you're realisticaly going to get caught is to become noticeable pregnant, and men can't do that.
Of course, this argument ignores the fact that man probably aren't anywhere near as likely to have this restriction placed on them to begin with. This probably has a lot more to do with the fear of 'unclean and sinful' women reproducing than anyhing else. You can debate whether this restriction is right or wrong, but I think you'd never be able to prove that it's applied equally to men and women.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 6:22 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
This is bullshit false equivalency.
In a minor criminal case like this, no one's going to be spending the time and money seeking admissions, doing paternity tests, photographing anyone, etc. Basically, the only way you're realisticaly going to get caught is to become noticeable pregnant, and men can't do that.
Of course, this argument ignores the fact that man probably aren't anywhere near as likely to have this restriction placed on them to begin with. This probably has a lot more to do with the fear of 'unclean and sinful' women reproducing than anyhing else. You can debate whether this restriction is right or wrong, but I think you'd never be able to prove that it's applied equally to men and women.
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 6:22 AM on November 26, 2010 [2 favorites]
As to the argument that punishing her for getting pregnant is discriminatory, since males could go have sex and get someone else pregnant and escape obvious detection that they had sex, would do the proponents of the discrimination argument suggest should be done?
Not punish anyone for having sex, or being pregnant (or prostitution, or (with imprisonment) shoplifting).
posted by Infinite Jest at 6:28 AM on November 26, 2010
Not punish anyone for having sex, or being pregnant (or prostitution, or (with imprisonment) shoplifting).
posted by Infinite Jest at 6:28 AM on November 26, 2010
This is actually the second time in the past few months I've read about someone (in fact a woman) dying in an AZ jail.
Just picking nits here, but this story is actually about someone in the Pittsburgh metro area. Allegheny County is in SW Pennsylvania and contains the city of Pittsburgh. The Bridgeville Giant Eagle is about 20 miles south of the city.
posted by el_lupino at 6:29 AM on November 26, 2010
Just picking nits here, but this story is actually about someone in the Pittsburgh metro area. Allegheny County is in SW Pennsylvania and contains the city of Pittsburgh. The Bridgeville Giant Eagle is about 20 miles south of the city.
posted by el_lupino at 6:29 AM on November 26, 2010
He was probably commenting more on the fact the article was inflammatory (much like this single link post) and had a hysterical tone
Ohhhhh, word choice = tipping your hand here, man.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:38 AM on November 26, 2010
Ohhhhh, word choice = tipping your hand here, man.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:38 AM on November 26, 2010
« Older TSA revenge screenings | Spirit Bears in the Great Bear Rainforest Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by dabitch at 3:53 AM on November 26, 2010