Germans should remember...
June 25, 2011 7:12 AM Subscribe
Albrecht Ritschl (web site / papers) of the London School of Economics says Germans should remember their status as postwar debtors when offering advice to Greece.
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- goodnewsfortheinsane
I mentioned the war once, but I think I got away with it all right.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:33 AM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:33 AM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Don't lets be nasty to the Germans.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:37 AM on June 25, 2011
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:37 AM on June 25, 2011
I like how America's 'shit shit we'd better pump them full of money or they'll end up as commies or warmongers' after WW2 has become 'debt forgiveness' in this article. Because I mean the two situations are totally comparable.
posted by litleozy at 8:35 AM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by litleozy at 8:35 AM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
This of course raises the very real question - more evil - hitler or investment bankers.
flummox - given your similarly nuanced view of the Greek debt situation which side do you take?
posted by JPD at 8:43 AM on June 25, 2011
flummox - given your similarly nuanced view of the Greek debt situation which side do you take?
posted by JPD at 8:43 AM on June 25, 2011
I like how America's 'shit shit we'd better pump them full of money or they'll end up as commies or warmongers' after WW2 has become 'debt forgiveness' in this article.
That's not really fair - it was more like "saddling them with shitloads of debt and reparations the last time around didn't work out so well for anyone. Let's not do that again."
posted by JPD at 8:45 AM on June 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
That's not really fair - it was more like "saddling them with shitloads of debt and reparations the last time around didn't work out so well for anyone. Let's not do that again."
posted by JPD at 8:45 AM on June 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'd agree the parallels don't run particularly deep, i.e. no war, no communism, etc. Three more salient points are :
(1) Greece's austerity & bailout are primarily about protecting foreign investments, not the Greek people.
(2) All Southern European nations are qualitatively less democratic than their northern cousins, heck they've made their multi-party systems less democratic than even the U.S.'s ridiculous two-party system. Btw, the Spanish movement is even called Democracia Real Ya (Real Democracy Now).
(3) There cannot be any confidence in the Greek economy going forward so long as the current Greek politicians and their systemic corruption reign. Austerity or debt forgiveness cannot change this.
In other words, all the debate amounts here to whether it should be the Greek people or the German, et al. people who pay off the Greek government's creditors so that the Greek politicians can retain power. There is clearly a third choice :
The Greek people should vote out their existing politicians, instead electing people who'll reestablish "economic confidence" by fixing the systemic problems. Yes, the money must still come from somewhere, but a new government would've vastly more clout in dealing with creditors, the Greek population, and even other E.U. voters. In particular, actually collecting the backed taxes owed by the Greek upper middle class might buy considerable sympathy.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:36 AM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
(1) Greece's austerity & bailout are primarily about protecting foreign investments, not the Greek people.
(2) All Southern European nations are qualitatively less democratic than their northern cousins, heck they've made their multi-party systems less democratic than even the U.S.'s ridiculous two-party system. Btw, the Spanish movement is even called Democracia Real Ya (Real Democracy Now).
(3) There cannot be any confidence in the Greek economy going forward so long as the current Greek politicians and their systemic corruption reign. Austerity or debt forgiveness cannot change this.
In other words, all the debate amounts here to whether it should be the Greek people or the German, et al. people who pay off the Greek government's creditors so that the Greek politicians can retain power. There is clearly a third choice :
The Greek people should vote out their existing politicians, instead electing people who'll reestablish "economic confidence" by fixing the systemic problems. Yes, the money must still come from somewhere, but a new government would've vastly more clout in dealing with creditors, the Greek population, and even other E.U. voters. In particular, actually collecting the backed taxes owed by the Greek upper middle class might buy considerable sympathy.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:36 AM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The article is utter nonsense. Germany's debt & situation in the 1930's is not comparable to Greece's now.
Even if Germany had paid war reparations Greece would be in a mess and still ruled by incompetent and lying politicians (remember that they reported FALSE economic data to the EU before joining the Euro and built this gigantic public sector).
And the currently ongoing blame game from both sides solves nothing. Greece needs to restructure it's public sector, economy and politics - and the EU & IMF need to finance these changes and not just give money to satisfy the bankers.
In almost all European countries politicians have created huge economic deficits - and voters have largely ignored these failures. Some countries like Germany and the UK are rich & strong enough to pull through the additional burdens imposed by the financial crisis, but Greece was already on the brink before the crash of the financial markets ...
At the moment almost all EU countries suffer from austerity measures and the difficult markets.
All Europeans have to pay more attention to what their voted officials and bankers are up to in the future ... and not just sit back and ignore what's happening until it's too late.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:57 AM on June 25, 2011
Even if Germany had paid war reparations Greece would be in a mess and still ruled by incompetent and lying politicians (remember that they reported FALSE economic data to the EU before joining the Euro and built this gigantic public sector).
And the currently ongoing blame game from both sides solves nothing. Greece needs to restructure it's public sector, economy and politics - and the EU & IMF need to finance these changes and not just give money to satisfy the bankers.
In almost all European countries politicians have created huge economic deficits - and voters have largely ignored these failures. Some countries like Germany and the UK are rich & strong enough to pull through the additional burdens imposed by the financial crisis, but Greece was already on the brink before the crash of the financial markets ...
At the moment almost all EU countries suffer from austerity measures and the difficult markets.
All Europeans have to pay more attention to what their voted officials and bankers are up to in the future ... and not just sit back and ignore what's happening until it's too late.
posted by homodigitalis at 9:57 AM on June 25, 2011
What continues to raise my hackles about all of this is that the most recent financial meltdown was caused by corrupt bankers and politicians. That's what triggered this admittedly "just about to happen, anyway" mess. Yet, it's mostly politicians (who deserve it) who are seeing lots of heat, but the bankers mostly continue on their merry way, finding new ways to plunder us while living in the lap of luxury. One would think when the actions of several thousand high end traders, arbitrager, and senior bank (and bank-related) executives causes worldwide mayhem, there would be a penalty.
It breaks my heart to see entire economies - weak as some already were - brought to their knees; losing social safety nets; privatizing everything from parks to universities; etc. There seems not enough rage against the machine.
posted by Vibrissae at 10:33 AM on June 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
It breaks my heart to see entire economies - weak as some already were - brought to their knees; losing social safety nets; privatizing everything from parks to universities; etc. There seems not enough rage against the machine.
posted by Vibrissae at 10:33 AM on June 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
the most recent financial meltdown was caused by corrupt bankers and politicians.
That's overly simplistic. There were millions of Irish people more than happy to binge on cheap debt and pay ridiculous prices for ridiculous things. This is not to absolve banks, but individuals bear some responsibility, too. No one was protesting about the booming real estate market and no-deposit loans.
posted by smoke at 5:45 PM on June 25, 2011
That's overly simplistic. There were millions of Irish people more than happy to binge on cheap debt and pay ridiculous prices for ridiculous things. This is not to absolve banks, but individuals bear some responsibility, too. No one was protesting about the booming real estate market and no-deposit loans.
posted by smoke at 5:45 PM on June 25, 2011
Or, sometimes, not so privately: Germany's federal labour office predicts that an additional 140,000 immigrants a year will be needed
Everybody knows this. The problem is that not educated people are coming to Germany, but people with the sole purpose of living on social aid and commiting crimes.
Sorry DOUG SAUNDERS, but the whole article makes me thinks that you are not the sharpest tool in the box.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 6:27 PM on June 25, 2011
Everybody knows this. The problem is that not educated people are coming to Germany, but people with the sole purpose of living on social aid and commiting crimes.
Sorry DOUG SAUNDERS, but the whole article makes me thinks that you are not the sharpest tool in the box.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 6:27 PM on June 25, 2011
If you want to annoy Polish people, Bwithh, remind them that Poland eliminated the highest percentage of its Jewish population, meaning Poles must've offered much more "thorough" non-officail collaboration in the Holocaust, despite only rarely being official Nazi collaborators.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:36 PM on June 25, 2011
posted by jeffburdges at 9:36 PM on June 25, 2011
litleozy: "I like how America's 'shit shit we'd better pump them full of money or they'll end up as commies or warmongers' after WW2 has become 'debt forgiveness' in this article."
Look, as an American, there are certain things in our history of which I am not proud; but the decision to carry out the Marshall Plan and to invest heavily in Germany is not one of them. Not least because it was the historically sound thing to do. Or did you forget what happened the last time defeated Germans were treated as subhuman and saddled with massive debt? Moreover, half of Germany was technically communist, and whatever I may think about communism in the abstract, it was not long before the economic health of West Germany was absolutely vital to the nation and the region.
And, it should be noted, debt forgiveness is debt forgiveness. It doesn't cease to be debt forgiveness just because the banker smirks - which, I should note, not America but Europe did, Europe which turned brutally on the Germans after the war.
I really don't understand why anyone would disagree with the economic support of Germany after the war. Or are you one of these Thatcherites who think Germany should be permanently reduced to a slave nation of subhuman vassals?
posted by koeselitz at 9:53 PM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Look, as an American, there are certain things in our history of which I am not proud; but the decision to carry out the Marshall Plan and to invest heavily in Germany is not one of them. Not least because it was the historically sound thing to do. Or did you forget what happened the last time defeated Germans were treated as subhuman and saddled with massive debt? Moreover, half of Germany was technically communist, and whatever I may think about communism in the abstract, it was not long before the economic health of West Germany was absolutely vital to the nation and the region.
And, it should be noted, debt forgiveness is debt forgiveness. It doesn't cease to be debt forgiveness just because the banker smirks - which, I should note, not America but Europe did, Europe which turned brutally on the Germans after the war.
I really don't understand why anyone would disagree with the economic support of Germany after the war. Or are you one of these Thatcherites who think Germany should be permanently reduced to a slave nation of subhuman vassals?
posted by koeselitz at 9:53 PM on June 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
yoyo_nyc: The problem is that not educated people are coming to Germany, but people with the sole purpose of living on social aid and commiting crimes.
I am sure you can back this claim up with a credible source?
NB: The Völkischer Beobachter does not count.
posted by kasparhauser at 3:08 AM on June 26, 2011
I am sure you can back this claim up with a credible source?
NB: The Völkischer Beobachter does not count.
posted by kasparhauser at 3:08 AM on June 26, 2011
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posted by fullerine at 7:23 AM on June 25, 2011 [2 favorites]