Sex, cats and introverts
August 26, 2013 9:34 PM Subscribe
The Internet's Love Affair With Introverts
Online might just be the introvert's natural environment, where conversations can be staged, staggered and stopped at their discretion – all from a distance. Thoughts can be edited to perfection, solitary hobbies and pursuits can be meticulously researched before being shared online, friendships maintained without the obligation to meet face-to-face … plus it's never been easier to uncover other introverts and forge friendships without the inconvenience of meeting.
On the Internet, no one knows you're an introverted dog, posting pictures of cats on caturday.
posted by tilde at 9:47 PM on August 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by tilde at 9:47 PM on August 26, 2013 [6 favorites]
On the Internet, everyone is an introvert or pretends to be, because who's to know?
posted by Ideefixe at 9:51 PM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 9:51 PM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I was just saying I have never understood why "two people sitting in the same room doing different things" is considered quality time, but two people having a nice chat via text medium like IM or Skype is desperate and sad.
Naturally, I was saying this over IM because my reaction to "phone call" is "Ew, why?"
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:55 PM on August 26, 2013 [23 favorites]
Naturally, I was saying this over IM because my reaction to "phone call" is "Ew, why?"
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 9:55 PM on August 26, 2013 [23 favorites]
I'm going to call myself Normal Dog from now on
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on August 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on August 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think that will change eventually and maybe even soon.
posted by Our Ship Of The Imagination! at 9:57 PM on August 26, 2013
posted by Our Ship Of The Imagination! at 9:57 PM on August 26, 2013
Huffington Post’s popular diagnostic, "23 Signs You’re Secretly an Introvert," says you may claim membership in this elite club if “idle chatter” fails to thrill you, if networking “feels disingenuous” (you “crave authenticity in [your] interactions”), if you “have a penchant for philosophical conversations and a love of thought-provoking books and movies,” if you’re “geared toward intense study and developing expertise,” if you “have a keen eye for detail,” and if your habit of “thinking before [you] speak” gives you a “wise” reputation. There’s more: You might also be an introvert if you “look at the big picture” and if you prefer the window or aisle seat on buses.
Oy, Christ, no, not my flavor of introversion by a long stretch.
posted by rtha at 10:19 PM on August 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Oy, Christ, no, not my flavor of introversion by a long stretch.
posted by rtha at 10:19 PM on August 26, 2013 [3 favorites]
Half of all the "Signs you're really a __________" articles on the Internet are really just examples of the Forer effect.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:21 PM on August 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by mstokes650 at 10:21 PM on August 26, 2013 [13 favorites]
For more information, check out this nifty new article, "43 Signs You're Secretly A Manifestation Of The Forer Effect."
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 10:24 PM on August 26, 2013 [38 favorites]
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 10:24 PM on August 26, 2013 [38 favorites]
Yeah, someone linked me that HuffPo article recently, and it felt like they had their introversion/extroversion scale miscalibrated. Who likes being unexpectedly singled out for audience participation? Not being the world's hugest extrovert doesn't make you an introvert.
posted by rifflesby at 10:27 PM on August 26, 2013
posted by rifflesby at 10:27 PM on August 26, 2013
I'm a socially awkward extrovert. I get charged up by being around people, but I don't particularly enjoy interacting with them. Its great that there are a constant series of articles assuring me that i'm actually a super special snowflake introvert.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:35 PM on August 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 10:35 PM on August 26, 2013 [5 favorites]
Thanks for linking to the Forer effect article. I had not heard of it before and enjoyed reading about it. In my teens I was into astrology, and I noticed that everyone loved the horoscopes I put together for them, even if I had made mistakes in the planet alignments. I suspected something was amiss and eventually abandoned astrology for science. Nice to finally have a name for that "oh, that describes me so well" effect.
But it doesn't change one fact: composing personalized horoscopes is a great way to impress girls.
posted by Triplanetary at 10:42 PM on August 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
But it doesn't change one fact: composing personalized horoscopes is a great way to impress girls.
posted by Triplanetary at 10:42 PM on August 26, 2013 [2 favorites]
The internet is a great medium for me. I enjoy writing and I type relatively fast, I enjoy wordplay, I like chatting it up with someone, we're having a time and whoops, hey now, time to go, talk soon and then maybe never chat that person again, it's hit and/or miss, just like real life.
Because most of my experience in chat is in mental health chat rooms (primarily manic depression support chat groups), I can wander into a conv at any time and be smack dab in the middle of someones real-life, real-time crisis, and I'm good at that sort of thing, and I enjoy it, too.
Right from the start, I've found it pretty damned amazing how fast the personality can come across in words newly minted onto a cold, bright screen.
Chats are really good place for people on autism spectrum to meet people who are not, because they don't have to look at you to -talk- to you; one young Aspie woman wandered into that manic depression support chat I so often went to and she was an immediate hit, and she loved the shit out of all of us, and we all loved the shit out of her, too, she's bright as fire and lots more interesting.
She branched out from the loving relationships she built in that chat, she was able to visit IRL people she'd met online and came to trust, and see their world, she went from suicidal all the dang time to being mostly a pretty damn happy manic depressive Aspie person, social and rather festive, jumping around like a bug. She was and is unreal creative, it comes off her like smoke, she continued with that and deepened it, too -- she just wasn't in such hurtful pain all the time.
On a whim, I went into an Aspie chat that she frequented, the difference between those two environments just unreal -- manic depressives, man oh man does the screen scroll FAST, we're big chatter-boxes, on and on about everything or nothing or both, etc. But that Aspie chat, the screen almost -never- moved, it's like watching paint dry; they never said anything unless they had something big to say.
I used to love ICQ chat client because, unlike other chat clients I'd come across to that point in time, I was able to see what the person had written, and then backed over and re-written, changed spelling or punctuation or just -whatever- before hitting send; great fun, seeing how people think, or at the least seeing how they think when they're writing on a keyboard in a chat.
12 Step Meetings, online. Being as how they are an anonymous fellowship, if I were a member I couldn't say it, if I'd ever been in any of those online meetings I couldn't cop to it, without blowing my anonymity. But I have a friend who, from his living room, has been in AA meetings with people from all over the whole damn world, including one person who lived right up the block.
My friend tells me that online mtgs are really good for people who just cannot or will not face their alcohol problem squarely, it's the same only moreso as people who come to IRL 12 step meetings and sit in the back and never say anything, just listen. So anyways, apparently this is even a further step removed from that, and a person can -s-l-o-w-l-y- step into the program.
Also of course I'd have to think that it would be great for people who are shut-ins, or people who are traveling, or whatever -- if you have a puter and an internet connection, you can catch a meeting, day or night, 24/7/365.
To come back around to the top of my comment -- my puter is just all-around a great medium for me. It is often too easy for me to hide from the world -- I have had one friend threaten to do an internet intervention on my ass, jerk the cord out of the wall. And I know she was onto something, I paid her some mind. That said, I've found great people in these inter-tubes and wires and stuff, people I care about, who care about me. I'd hate to go back to not having it.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:48 PM on August 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
Because most of my experience in chat is in mental health chat rooms (primarily manic depression support chat groups), I can wander into a conv at any time and be smack dab in the middle of someones real-life, real-time crisis, and I'm good at that sort of thing, and I enjoy it, too.
Right from the start, I've found it pretty damned amazing how fast the personality can come across in words newly minted onto a cold, bright screen.
Chats are really good place for people on autism spectrum to meet people who are not, because they don't have to look at you to -talk- to you; one young Aspie woman wandered into that manic depression support chat I so often went to and she was an immediate hit, and she loved the shit out of all of us, and we all loved the shit out of her, too, she's bright as fire and lots more interesting.
She branched out from the loving relationships she built in that chat, she was able to visit IRL people she'd met online and came to trust, and see their world, she went from suicidal all the dang time to being mostly a pretty damn happy manic depressive Aspie person, social and rather festive, jumping around like a bug. She was and is unreal creative, it comes off her like smoke, she continued with that and deepened it, too -- she just wasn't in such hurtful pain all the time.
On a whim, I went into an Aspie chat that she frequented, the difference between those two environments just unreal -- manic depressives, man oh man does the screen scroll FAST, we're big chatter-boxes, on and on about everything or nothing or both, etc. But that Aspie chat, the screen almost -never- moved, it's like watching paint dry; they never said anything unless they had something big to say.
I used to love ICQ chat client because, unlike other chat clients I'd come across to that point in time, I was able to see what the person had written, and then backed over and re-written, changed spelling or punctuation or just -whatever- before hitting send; great fun, seeing how people think, or at the least seeing how they think when they're writing on a keyboard in a chat.
12 Step Meetings, online. Being as how they are an anonymous fellowship, if I were a member I couldn't say it, if I'd ever been in any of those online meetings I couldn't cop to it, without blowing my anonymity. But I have a friend who, from his living room, has been in AA meetings with people from all over the whole damn world, including one person who lived right up the block.
My friend tells me that online mtgs are really good for people who just cannot or will not face their alcohol problem squarely, it's the same only moreso as people who come to IRL 12 step meetings and sit in the back and never say anything, just listen. So anyways, apparently this is even a further step removed from that, and a person can -s-l-o-w-l-y- step into the program.
Also of course I'd have to think that it would be great for people who are shut-ins, or people who are traveling, or whatever -- if you have a puter and an internet connection, you can catch a meeting, day or night, 24/7/365.
To come back around to the top of my comment -- my puter is just all-around a great medium for me. It is often too easy for me to hide from the world -- I have had one friend threaten to do an internet intervention on my ass, jerk the cord out of the wall. And I know she was onto something, I paid her some mind. That said, I've found great people in these inter-tubes and wires and stuff, people I care about, who care about me. I'd hate to go back to not having it.
posted by dancestoblue at 10:48 PM on August 26, 2013 [9 favorites]
Huffington Post’s popular diagnostic, "23 Signs You’re Secretly an Introvert," says you may claim membership in this elite club if [...] you “have a penchant for philosophical conversations and a love of thought-provoking books and movies"
I love philosophical conversations and books and movies! But I also enjoy inviting masses of people around me so I can expound upon those things endlessly!
Do I have to return my introvert card? Because I've been using it as a coaster, and lemme tell you, that thing retains water like a motherfucker.
posted by Rory Marinich at 11:20 PM on August 26, 2013
I love philosophical conversations and books and movies! But I also enjoy inviting masses of people around me so I can expound upon those things endlessly!
Do I have to return my introvert card? Because I've been using it as a coaster, and lemme tell you, that thing retains water like a motherfucker.
posted by Rory Marinich at 11:20 PM on August 26, 2013
INFP if you still believe in MBTI
There's a difference between being an introvert and the exhibiting the perpetual frustration of not being noticed.
There is no fucking introvert card.
We (hardcore intros) abhor the very notion of collectivism.
And this frankly feels like you're recruiting friends.
It's colder out there than it is in here.
posted by isopraxis at 11:40 PM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
There's a difference between being an introvert and the exhibiting the perpetual frustration of not being noticed.
There is no fucking introvert card.
We (hardcore intros) abhor the very notion of collectivism.
And this frankly feels like you're recruiting friends.
It's colder out there than it is in here.
posted by isopraxis at 11:40 PM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm a very social person. I'm also a person with sensory issues. I like (and respect!) a bunch of real introverts, but I think there are also a bunch of people who've been labelled as introverted and asocial who are actually very social but have reasons why face-to-face contact is not as easy as it is to the people who get labelled extroverts. People who aren't actually on the spectrum or anything, but who have small sensory issues or aren't totally comfortable with eye contact or who have anxiety problems relating to saying the wrong thing, etc. People whose social needs are not met and who get very unhappy in isolation, but are also unhappy in crowds, because there's too much noise, unexpected touch, too many things to process at once, whatever.
People who treat social interaction over the internet like it's not 'real' social interaction kind of infuriate me, because it basically invalidates all the social experiences of people who happen to be a little different than they are. It also seems unfair to the real introverts, who aren't all going home and sending a dozen instant messages within ten minutes of walking in the door after work like I do, or jumping immediately onto a website to share my opinions about stuff in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. They aren't all secretly sociable, and that's also okay.
posted by Sequence at 12:58 AM on August 27, 2013 [10 favorites]
People who treat social interaction over the internet like it's not 'real' social interaction kind of infuriate me, because it basically invalidates all the social experiences of people who happen to be a little different than they are. It also seems unfair to the real introverts, who aren't all going home and sending a dozen instant messages within ten minutes of walking in the door after work like I do, or jumping immediately onto a website to share my opinions about stuff in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. They aren't all secretly sociable, and that's also okay.
posted by Sequence at 12:58 AM on August 27, 2013 [10 favorites]
People who treat social interaction over the internet like it's not 'real' social interaction kind of infuriate me,
Are there people that still do this? I can't imagine anyone under 50 saying that, and many older would bristle at that suggestion as well.
I'm just saying, people now date and fall in love without meeting, form social cliques, share the inner most thoughts all online. Many times the interaction is far more emotional, intimate and intense. I can't imagine anyone arguing it's not social interaction. Indeed, the huffpo article espouses the virtue of introvert because they do their social interacting online.
Hell, one thing that makes online social interactions so addictive is the low investment to high emotional gain you can get. Many interactions are like user short bursts of social reward with very little risk. Much more convenient than IRL.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:26 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are there people that still do this? I can't imagine anyone under 50 saying that, and many older would bristle at that suggestion as well.
I'm just saying, people now date and fall in love without meeting, form social cliques, share the inner most thoughts all online. Many times the interaction is far more emotional, intimate and intense. I can't imagine anyone arguing it's not social interaction. Indeed, the huffpo article espouses the virtue of introvert because they do their social interacting online.
Hell, one thing that makes online social interactions so addictive is the low investment to high emotional gain you can get. Many interactions are like user short bursts of social reward with very little risk. Much more convenient than IRL.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:26 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
...you may claim membership in this elite club if “idle chatter” fails to thrill you, if networking “feels disingenuous” (you “crave authenticity in [your] interactions”), if you “have a penchant for philosophical conversations and a love of thought-provoking books and movies,” if you’re “geared toward intense study and developing expertise,” if you “have a keen eye for detail,” and if your habit of “thinking before [you] speak” gives you a “wise” reputation. There’s more: You might also be an introvert if you “look at the big picture” and if you prefer the window or aisle seat on buses.
This "reads" like a "Zagat review" of an "utterly insufferable human being."
posted by griphus at 4:46 AM on August 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
This "reads" like a "Zagat review" of an "utterly insufferable human being."
posted by griphus at 4:46 AM on August 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
23 Signs You’re Secretly a Narcissist Masquerading as a Sensitive Introvert
posted by davar at 4:52 AM on August 27, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by davar at 4:52 AM on August 27, 2013 [15 favorites]
Wait, you all aren't cats? I'll just...be over here....lickin....drinking coffee, the human drink of mornings...
posted by jetlagaddict at 5:04 AM on August 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 5:04 AM on August 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
if you “have a penchant for philosophical conversations and a love of thought-provoking books and movies"
For instance, The Alchemist and American Beauty.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:23 AM on August 27, 2013
For instance, The Alchemist and American Beauty.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 5:23 AM on August 27, 2013
I am not sure there are any "real introverts." Like most simple polar personality classifications, there is rather, a wide range of "types" that fall in various places on a series of scales, and it's often hard to tell what is "innate" and what is "learned" behavior. I am more introverted than extroverted (although I have learned to play an extrovert), but I used to like talking on the phone; now there are about 3 people I talk to on the phone beyond business and making appointments, and I wish I could get one of them onto chat. I would rather text than call these days, although I like chatting face-to=face better than texting or chatting online. However, I definitely prefer chatting one-to-one or in groups of 3-4. Anything larger beings overwhelming me. Is that introverted or extroverted?
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:48 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:48 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Wait, you all aren't cats? I'll just...be over here....lickin....drinking coffee, the human drink of mornings...
"Did you meow?" "Not once!"
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 6:51 AM on August 27, 2013
"Did you meow?" "Not once!"
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 6:51 AM on August 27, 2013
My favorite ways of interacting with others in order of decreasing preference:
1) Not
2) Email/Chat/etc.
3) Face-to-face conversation
4) Phone
Online has only added one item to the list.
posted by tommasz at 7:00 AM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
1) Not
2) Email/Chat/etc.
3) Face-to-face conversation
4) Phone
Online has only added one item to the list.
posted by tommasz at 7:00 AM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm a bivert. I hate being alone, and I hate groups of people. I'm only happy when I'm with one other person.
posted by Eideteker at 7:12 AM on August 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Eideteker at 7:12 AM on August 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
Are there people that still do this? I can't imagine anyone under 50 saying that, and many older would bristle at that suggestion as well.
Yes, there are indeed people who still do this (under fifty), and I happen to one of them. I don't consider my online interaction with others, "real social interaction" simply because, from perspective, it isn't. I cannot see your face, hear the tone or inflections of your voice, read your body language, nor touch your hand or arm; the reality is, "you" are nothing more than lines of text on a screen.
posted by Nibiru at 7:23 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yes, there are indeed people who still do this (under fifty), and I happen to one of them. I don't consider my online interaction with others, "real social interaction" simply because, from perspective, it isn't. I cannot see your face, hear the tone or inflections of your voice, read your body language, nor touch your hand or arm; the reality is, "you" are nothing more than lines of text on a screen.
posted by Nibiru at 7:23 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm a bivert. I hate being alone, and I hate groups of people. I'm only happy when I'm with one other person.
Maybe you are a ectovert or a mesovert? Definitely not an endovert, who are predisposed to the storage of social interactions.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:26 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe you are a ectovert or a mesovert? Definitely not an endovert, who are predisposed to the storage of social interactions.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:26 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nibiru, does that apply if you are chatting online with someone you know in meatspace? Like, sibling, friend, parent?
posted by rtha at 7:31 AM on August 27, 2013
posted by rtha at 7:31 AM on August 27, 2013
23 Sgns You're Secretly A Narcissist Masquerading As A Sensitive Introvert
just sayin'
posted by entropicamericana at 7:42 AM on August 27, 2013
just sayin'
posted by entropicamericana at 7:42 AM on August 27, 2013
I don't consider my online interaction with others, "real social interaction" simply because, from perspective, it isn't.
Normally when I hear, er, read someone say that, I get ready for the poo-flinging to start (either trolling or the Kaycee Nicole variety) or start looking around for where it's already happened. Just sayin'.
The internet is also great for folks with chronic illnesses and disabiliites, who may have adapted to solitude. I know it's great for me to be able to deal with things at my own time and pace and keep up with people, and I get out regularly. For folks who have more trouble getting out than I do, it's got to be even more of a godsend.
posted by immlass at 7:45 AM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Normally when I hear, er, read someone say that, I get ready for the poo-flinging to start (either trolling or the Kaycee Nicole variety) or start looking around for where it's already happened. Just sayin'.
The internet is also great for folks with chronic illnesses and disabiliites, who may have adapted to solitude. I know it's great for me to be able to deal with things at my own time and pace and keep up with people, and I get out regularly. For folks who have more trouble getting out than I do, it's got to be even more of a godsend.
posted by immlass at 7:45 AM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
People who treat social interaction over the internet like it's not 'real' social interaction kind of infuriate me
I think it's different. Of course it's still real but I draw a real distinction between people who I know in real life (even if I've only met them once or twice) and people I don't know at all. It's possible that's just me.
Some people use online tools to interact with real life people and make real life friends and/or interact with people they could not otherwise meet in person. Some people use online tools to perpetually keep other people at a manageable distance and have little or no desire to interact with people in person. Which is fine, acceptable, it takes all kinds, but my personal opinion is that having only online interactions with other people (even if you need to do it because of perfectly good reasons) does mean you're missing out on certain parts of human interaction that most people get every day, and that are important in some tough-to-quantify ways.
Like many people, I've gotten a bit more introverted as I've worked more in my internet job and with an internet community. And as someone who has met literally hundreds of MeFites, I think there's something to trying to meet people in real life (which is why we created IRL). People who know each other in real life tend to treat each other better online here, and they have more social resources available to them than just the ones the internet can bring them. I have to work harder now to have real life interactions with people and I'm frequently more tired out by those interactions. At the same time, I view interacting with other people in person as a necessary part of being human, sort of like getting some sunshine or eating home made food or being awake during the "normal" daytime. Lots of people don't do these things for various good and bad reasons, but I think there's a false consciousness to the belief that online interactions contain the entirety of what most people in a larger society need in a social context.
I'm not saying this to be troll-y or otherwise button pushing or to cast aspersions on anyone's choice or non-choice to be where they are along the introvert/non-introvert spectrum, just that the larger world still seems to require a certain amount of non-online interactions that people still need to be decent at to get by. I am curious, actually, if that will change over time but I don't think we're quite there yet.
posted by jessamyn at 7:47 AM on August 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think it's different. Of course it's still real but I draw a real distinction between people who I know in real life (even if I've only met them once or twice) and people I don't know at all. It's possible that's just me.
Some people use online tools to interact with real life people and make real life friends and/or interact with people they could not otherwise meet in person. Some people use online tools to perpetually keep other people at a manageable distance and have little or no desire to interact with people in person. Which is fine, acceptable, it takes all kinds, but my personal opinion is that having only online interactions with other people (even if you need to do it because of perfectly good reasons) does mean you're missing out on certain parts of human interaction that most people get every day, and that are important in some tough-to-quantify ways.
Like many people, I've gotten a bit more introverted as I've worked more in my internet job and with an internet community. And as someone who has met literally hundreds of MeFites, I think there's something to trying to meet people in real life (which is why we created IRL). People who know each other in real life tend to treat each other better online here, and they have more social resources available to them than just the ones the internet can bring them. I have to work harder now to have real life interactions with people and I'm frequently more tired out by those interactions. At the same time, I view interacting with other people in person as a necessary part of being human, sort of like getting some sunshine or eating home made food or being awake during the "normal" daytime. Lots of people don't do these things for various good and bad reasons, but I think there's a false consciousness to the belief that online interactions contain the entirety of what most people in a larger society need in a social context.
I'm not saying this to be troll-y or otherwise button pushing or to cast aspersions on anyone's choice or non-choice to be where they are along the introvert/non-introvert spectrum, just that the larger world still seems to require a certain amount of non-online interactions that people still need to be decent at to get by. I am curious, actually, if that will change over time but I don't think we're quite there yet.
posted by jessamyn at 7:47 AM on August 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm a bivert. I hate being alone, and I hate groups of people. I'm only happy when I'm with one other person.
Me too!
We should start a support group. And then immediately close it to new members.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 7:49 AM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
Me too!
We should start a support group. And then immediately close it to new members.
posted by Now there are two. There are two _______. at 7:49 AM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
"Yes, there are indeed people who still do this (under fifty), and I happen to one of them. I don't consider my online interaction with others, "real social interaction" simply because, from perspective, it isn't. I cannot see your face, hear the tone or inflections of your voice, read your body language, nor touch your hand or arm; the reality is, "you" are nothing more than lines of text on a screen."
Media = Real Life
posted by Eideteker at 7:52 AM on August 27, 2013
Media = Real Life
posted by Eideteker at 7:52 AM on August 27, 2013
"We should start a support group. And then immediately close it to new members."
OK, but only because I loved your Forer Effect comment.
posted by Eideteker at 7:54 AM on August 27, 2013
OK, but only because I loved your Forer Effect comment.
posted by Eideteker at 7:54 AM on August 27, 2013
I'm with Nibiru: I'm under fifty, and I don't consider Internet friendships to be equal to face-to-face socialization. I agree with Jessamyn in that I might not use the word "real" to distinguish, but still, there is a difference I'd describe as qualitative.
If I can go a step farther, also without being troll-y, sometimes I wonder about these issues in the context of relationship AskMes. There's some great advice to be found, but there's also a significant tendency toward telling people to break up. I think about that, and then I think about other distinguishing characteristics of this community—like the MetaTalk discussions about how this website is a safe space for social awkwards, or an article like this one—and I wonder if there's a connection.
posted by cribcage at 8:02 AM on August 27, 2013
If I can go a step farther, also without being troll-y, sometimes I wonder about these issues in the context of relationship AskMes. There's some great advice to be found, but there's also a significant tendency toward telling people to break up. I think about that, and then I think about other distinguishing characteristics of this community—like the MetaTalk discussions about how this website is a safe space for social awkwards, or an article like this one—and I wonder if there's a connection.
posted by cribcage at 8:02 AM on August 27, 2013
I remember when I first snapped to the idea of chatting with someone in text, in real time. I was in eighth grade and had recently received a computer (a 386!) through the beneficence of the man who published a local free magazine that I wrote a column for. The 386 had a modem, and I was also given a subscription to AOL, but my friend (who became my first boyfriend) told me about a BBS I could dial into instead.
The BBS had only two phone lines, so if he and I were both logged in, we were blocking it up for everyone else. But we were in middle school and the grownups around us didn't really know what was going on and we had discovered a way we could talk for hours without anyone hearing us.
It was then I realized -- this medium was made for me. I was so much better with writing and letters and then the BBS chat than I was on the phone or in real life. I could consider what I said and erase it if I wasn't gutsy enough to press Enter. It felt like magic. It felt like a perfect fit.
Even today, I consider at least half of my "real life" to be lived on the Internet. If I could, I'd have dual citizenship -- American and Internet. I wonder what it is like to have always had chat or IM available as an option, since your littlest days, and I can't really imagine it.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:04 AM on August 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
The BBS had only two phone lines, so if he and I were both logged in, we were blocking it up for everyone else. But we were in middle school and the grownups around us didn't really know what was going on and we had discovered a way we could talk for hours without anyone hearing us.
It was then I realized -- this medium was made for me. I was so much better with writing and letters and then the BBS chat than I was on the phone or in real life. I could consider what I said and erase it if I wasn't gutsy enough to press Enter. It felt like magic. It felt like a perfect fit.
Even today, I consider at least half of my "real life" to be lived on the Internet. If I could, I'd have dual citizenship -- American and Internet. I wonder what it is like to have always had chat or IM available as an option, since your littlest days, and I can't really imagine it.
posted by fiercecupcake at 8:04 AM on August 27, 2013 [5 favorites]
I'm under fifty, and I don't consider Internet friendships to be equal to face-to-face socialization.
Ditto, sort of, but Nibiru used the term "real", which for this kinda pedantic editor is a different animal. And a number of my internet-only friendships have migrated into meatspace anyway, so that also changes things.
Talking to someone on the phone is different from talking to them in person, but they're both real to me. Online, in person, and on the phone, I still see myself as having an exchange with a real human being, a person like me. Not-in-person lacks some of the advantages of in-person, but is no less real.
posted by rtha at 9:39 AM on August 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Ditto, sort of, but Nibiru used the term "real", which for this kinda pedantic editor is a different animal. And a number of my internet-only friendships have migrated into meatspace anyway, so that also changes things.
Talking to someone on the phone is different from talking to them in person, but they're both real to me. Online, in person, and on the phone, I still see myself as having an exchange with a real human being, a person like me. Not-in-person lacks some of the advantages of in-person, but is no less real.
posted by rtha at 9:39 AM on August 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
I cannot see your face, hear the tone or inflections of your voice, read your body language, nor touch your hand or arm; the reality is, "you" are nothing more than lines of text on a screen.
That's sort of silly, though, as people who are blind or deaf are thus excluded, via your requirements, from ever having "real" human interactions.
posted by elizardbits at 9:51 AM on August 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
That's sort of silly, though, as people who are blind or deaf are thus excluded, via your requirements, from ever having "real" human interactions.
posted by elizardbits at 9:51 AM on August 27, 2013 [4 favorites]
Online, in person, and on the phone, I still see myself as having an exchange with a real human being, a person like me.
Yeah, some of my closest friendships are with people I've corresponded with strictly online, sometimes for a decade or even longer. I try to meet such friends if an opportunity presents itself but I can't say that the friendship suffers because we communicate by a written medium rather than noises and gesticulations. Sure, the relationship would usually (and that is a really important qualifier) benefit from in-person hanging out, but, for me, the content of the conversation matters infinitely more than whether we're communicating via glowy box or monkey suit.
posted by griphus at 10:05 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, some of my closest friendships are with people I've corresponded with strictly online, sometimes for a decade or even longer. I try to meet such friends if an opportunity presents itself but I can't say that the friendship suffers because we communicate by a written medium rather than noises and gesticulations. Sure, the relationship would usually (and that is a really important qualifier) benefit from in-person hanging out, but, for me, the content of the conversation matters infinitely more than whether we're communicating via glowy box or monkey suit.
posted by griphus at 10:05 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
...the content of the conversation matters infinitely more than whether we're communicating via glowy box or monkey suit.
From now on I'm only talking to people who are dressed in monkey costumes.
posted by Gygesringtone at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
From now on I'm only talking to people who are dressed in monkey costumes.
posted by Gygesringtone at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
23 Signs That Even You Should Be Bored By Your Feelings Seriously Play Video Games Or Something
posted by klangklangston at 2:51 PM on August 27, 2013
posted by klangklangston at 2:51 PM on August 27, 2013
Firstly, to those who've intimated I'm trolling: I'm not. I qualified my position by stating, "from my perspective"; I'm certainly not insisting, "you" should or need agree with me.
Secondly, as to those with disabilities, yes, I'm well aware it's a far more assessable and convenient means of communication, however, I don't necessarily agree it should or can replace more conventional forms of social interaction. Personally, I have Schizoaffective Disorder. Particularly when I'm feeling a little unwell, socialising and attempting to read social cues, concentrating on whatever the topic of conversation and continuing to seamlessly converse whilst I'm mildly psychotic can be quite difficult for me, but I've expended much time and effort in learning to manage my condition in order to appear, "normal". Whilst I respect others feel differently whether as a result of a disability or simply introversion, I refuse to apologise for my perspective, opinion, and far more importantly, my actual experience of the vast difference between online interaction and real social interaction...and the positive impact the latter has had on my life and lifestyle.
posted by Nibiru at 4:47 PM on August 27, 2013
Secondly, as to those with disabilities, yes, I'm well aware it's a far more assessable and convenient means of communication, however, I don't necessarily agree it should or can replace more conventional forms of social interaction. Personally, I have Schizoaffective Disorder. Particularly when I'm feeling a little unwell, socialising and attempting to read social cues, concentrating on whatever the topic of conversation and continuing to seamlessly converse whilst I'm mildly psychotic can be quite difficult for me, but I've expended much time and effort in learning to manage my condition in order to appear, "normal". Whilst I respect others feel differently whether as a result of a disability or simply introversion, I refuse to apologise for my perspective, opinion, and far more importantly, my actual experience of the vast difference between online interaction and real social interaction...and the positive impact the latter has had on my life and lifestyle.
posted by Nibiru at 4:47 PM on August 27, 2013
Yeah, but continuing to emphasize it as "real" is what powers the eye-roll turbines, man. From any meaningful definition of "real," online interaction fits. And while it may be different, especially in metacommunication cues, that doesn't make it less real any more than hot dogs are less real than hamburgers.
So, you're arguing against a straw man (people who think online should totally replace offline communication), and constructing a false dichotomy in order to justify your experience of finding offline communication more rewarding.
The whole refusing to apologize for your perspective is just weird, and maybe a signal that part of the reason you find online communication less meaningful is because you're not as skilled at it.
posted by klangklangston at 4:56 PM on August 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
So, you're arguing against a straw man (people who think online should totally replace offline communication), and constructing a false dichotomy in order to justify your experience of finding offline communication more rewarding.
The whole refusing to apologize for your perspective is just weird, and maybe a signal that part of the reason you find online communication less meaningful is because you're not as skilled at it.
posted by klangklangston at 4:56 PM on August 27, 2013 [2 favorites]
Nibiru, does that apply if you are chatting online with someone you know in meatspace? Like, sibling, friend, parent?
I don't communicate with friends or family online. I have met friends and so forth via the Internet, but once I meet them, it becomes an offline scenario; I have no interest or desire in creating or maintaining online, "relationships" of any description.
posted by Nibiru at 4:58 PM on August 27, 2013
I don't communicate with friends or family online. I have met friends and so forth via the Internet, but once I meet them, it becomes an offline scenario; I have no interest or desire in creating or maintaining online, "relationships" of any description.
posted by Nibiru at 4:58 PM on August 27, 2013
I post an article about how the Internet tends to lionize a sterotype of introverts and the comments are filled with introverts lionizing themselves.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:01 PM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 5:01 PM on August 27, 2013 [3 favorites]
The whole refusing to apologize for your perspective is just weird, and maybe a signal that part of the reason you find online communication less meaningful is because you're not as skilled at it.
What I find weird is the assumption my opinion is deliberately inflammatory simply because it doesn't echo the majority. I have chosen to share the rationale for my perspective, and instead of taking it at face value, you retaliate with an accusation of my being unable to communicate effectively online. This I don't find weird, but do, ironically, perceive deliberately inflammatory.
posted by Nibiru at 5:03 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
What I find weird is the assumption my opinion is deliberately inflammatory simply because it doesn't echo the majority. I have chosen to share the rationale for my perspective, and instead of taking it at face value, you retaliate with an accusation of my being unable to communicate effectively online. This I don't find weird, but do, ironically, perceive deliberately inflammatory.
posted by Nibiru at 5:03 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
"What I find weird is the assumption my opinion is deliberately inflammatory simply because it doesn't echo the majority. I have chosen to share the rationale for my perspective, and instead of taking it at face value, you retaliate with an accusation of my being unable to communicate effectively online. This I don't find weird, but do, ironically, perceive deliberately inflammatory."
I didn't take it as deliberately inflammatory. I took it as an unsupportable argument based on an idiosyncratic definition of meaning and told you why. And I didn't say you were unable to communicate effectively online, but rather that your defensiveness was a signal that you're not as adept at it, because you were getting your back up over innocuous comments.
posted by klangklangston at 5:07 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I didn't take it as deliberately inflammatory. I took it as an unsupportable argument based on an idiosyncratic definition of meaning and told you why. And I didn't say you were unable to communicate effectively online, but rather that your defensiveness was a signal that you're not as adept at it, because you were getting your back up over innocuous comments.
posted by klangklangston at 5:07 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I supported my argument, "...and far more importantly, my actual experience of the vast difference between online interaction and real social interaction...and the positive impact the latter has had on my life and lifestyle.". Obviously your experience and perception of, "real" differs from my own, but it doesn't negate it.
posted by Nibiru at 5:15 PM on August 27, 2013
posted by Nibiru at 5:15 PM on August 27, 2013
Yes, I think it's fair to say you have an idiosyncratic relationship with reality.
posted by klangklangston at 5:33 PM on August 27, 2013
posted by klangklangston at 5:33 PM on August 27, 2013
Yes, I think it's fair to say you have an idiosyncratic relationship with reality.
Amusingly, you yourself make an excellent argument against choosing not to differentiate between online fantasy and reality. Within a dozen lines of text you feel you know the human being currently sporting the pseudonym, "Nibiru" intimately enough to make such an utterly absurd assertion.
posted by Nibiru at 5:44 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Amusingly, you yourself make an excellent argument against choosing not to differentiate between online fantasy and reality. Within a dozen lines of text you feel you know the human being currently sporting the pseudonym, "Nibiru" intimately enough to make such an utterly absurd assertion.
posted by Nibiru at 5:44 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have met friends and so forth via the Internet, but once I meet them, it becomes an offline scenario; I have no interest or desire in creating or maintaining online, "relationships" of any description.
Okay. Different strokes and all, I guess. I have a lot of friends who don't live anywhere near me, so keeping up only via visits would be a pain, hence the online connection. But if that doesn't work for you, then it doesn't.
I also find your definition of what's "real" kind of odd, but....shrug.
posted by rtha at 6:59 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
Okay. Different strokes and all, I guess. I have a lot of friends who don't live anywhere near me, so keeping up only via visits would be a pain, hence the online connection. But if that doesn't work for you, then it doesn't.
I also find your definition of what's "real" kind of odd, but....shrug.
posted by rtha at 6:59 PM on August 27, 2013 [1 favorite]
15 Problems of Being an Introvert and an Extrovert
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 1:08 AM on August 28, 2013
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 1:08 AM on August 28, 2013
Maybe introverts are secretly narcissists
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2013
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2013
9 Things Introverts Do All the Time
"Introverts tend to be very good listeners, which is why they can tell Mark Ruffalo is speaking directly to them in every interview he gives."
posted by Iridic at 11:43 AM on August 30, 2013
"Introverts tend to be very good listeners, which is why they can tell Mark Ruffalo is speaking directly to them in every interview he gives."
posted by Iridic at 11:43 AM on August 30, 2013
I was just coming here to post that, Iridic.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:04 PM on August 30, 2013
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:04 PM on August 30, 2013
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posted by psycho-alchemy at 9:39 PM on August 26, 2013 [1 favorite]